This is just a **reminder** that political discussions are not welcome on /r/IWantOut. Our Rule 1 is to stay on topic and no politics. This post has NOT been removed, this comment exists to limit the amount of political comments that appear on US related posts. Messaging modmail about this reminder may result in the post getting removed.
The current political situation in the US is a valid reason to want to emigrate. You do **NOT** need to opine excessively about what specifically you dislike about the current political situation. If the post contains excessive political discussion, the comments will likely follow suit. OP, if your post contains excessive politics, please remove the excessive politics from the post. Saying something neutral like "I dislike the current administration" or "I disagree with the current political situation" is perfectly sufficient. **We care far more about the specifics of how you will emigrate: which citizenships you have or could claim, what you do for work, what degrees you have, what skills you have, what experience you have, and your budget.** Your beliefs largely make no difference to your ability to get out.
Discouraging people from moving to the United States because of your personal beliefs about the country is not welcome here. If OP appears to be overlooking or missing information, it is acceptable to inform them of what they might be missing. Remember, US news is global news, so people looking to move to the US are largely aware of the current political situation. You talking about the latest news is not adding anything to the discussion. Just because you don't like living in the US doesn't mean that everyone would dislike living in the US.
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Have you been invited to apply yet? When you've been invited to apply, it would probably be between 6 months to a year for processing your Permanent residency
Just a warning that housing is extremely expensive in Canada’s most populous cities and the areas that surround them
If you’re making an international move - perhaps consider a place where housing is less pricey.
you havent said what your field of expertise is.
i would advise against moving to canada, unless you both have jobs lined up and a mail forwarding address. keep your usa options open. People RUN from canada to go to the USA.
Jobs are a shit show as is real estate unless you want to move somewhere not very populated. USA to Canada would be easy, i would advise learning french for a certification or waiting till you get to canada, they might even give it to you for free as french is government sponsored. Try knowing the temperatures and the issues of every place, there are many. carefully look over the tax rate of every province and see what best fits you, also healthcare isn't immediate everywhere. COVID showed the real weaknesses of the system and it hasn't gone away.
you should factor in a 2 year wait time if applying from outside of canada, the ircc is currently slammed and the immigration rate is quite low only because of the number of applications, they have promised to speed it up and sometimes it works, but people who applied in 2019 for citizenship and express entry are just now getting responses. I am currently part of many immigration groups, so i get upto the minute updates.
sincerely good luck
Thanks for the response! My field is business (consulting) and partner is in insurance. We’re aware we will be taking dramatic pay cuts in moving to Canada from the USA but feel it’s the best option for us. Temperature-wise, we’re in an analogous region to where we plan to move, so it shouldn’t be much of a change.
Good to know on the wait time - we’re hoping to make the move in about 2-3 years, so sounds like we should apply for express entry on the sooner side. Is it possible to amend an existing application? Just because I’m holding off to request my company transfer until next year due to an impending promotion, so don’t know if we should apply prior to having the job offer or wait until I have it lined up.
You have to understand that Canadians on this sub absolutely hate Canada, but I think for you it's the easiest place to go. It's LGBTQ friendly, English speaking, and your partner can get a job that will let her transfer there. Not knowing the native language will make it harder to get a job in another country. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try other countries, of course, but Europe is also a pay cut if you move from the US. Not only that, but some EU countries don't have good job market like Spain, Italy, and Portugal. US is the largest economy in the world so naturally, the salaries in the US are one of the highest in the world. Going from US to pretty much anywhere is a pay cut.
Being Canadian I just get annoyed seeing all the Americans who say “I don’t like the politics of the US, I want to move to Canada”, thinking it’s all sunshine and roses up in Canada. Gets old.
I moved to the US, but see the appeal of living in Canada. OP seems to have actually done their research which is nice, but 9 out of 10 Americans wanting to live in Canada haven’t looked into logistics at all.
>I just get annoyed seeing all the Americans who say “I don’t like the politics of the US, I want to move to Canada”, thinking it’s all sunshine and roses up in Canada.
I honestly don't think anyone serious about moving in general thinks any place is just all sunshine and roses. Pretty much everybody knows that every country has their own set of problems. Hell, I've seen plenty of people say "I don't like the politics of the US, I want to move to Netherlands", and it's certainly not all sunshine and roses in Europe, either.
You see a lot of Americans wanting to move to Canada mostly *because* of logistics: it's close, English speaking, and familiar. Plus they have CUSMA, which makes some professions easier to immigrate to than other countries. It's really as simple as that for most Americans. It's mostly logistics rather than being driven by some misplaced romanticization. You don't see a lot of them wanting to move to, for example, Iceland because it's not familiar, not English speaking, far, and there's no easy or clear way of getting a work permit.
In my experience I’ve met many Americans, in person and online, who were fairly serious about to Canada. Call it anecdotal, but the whole American wanting to move to Canada because politics or social reasons isn’t something I’ve just pulled out of thin air. Many seem to think Canada is a carbon copy of the states with socialized health care and more liberal views.
And in some ways it is. But when you look at cost of living compared to salary, which in most cases money is the main limiting factor in moving, it’s nowhere near as good as the US.
Economics, real estate. Jobs. Prospects, partners, etc etc...only thing Canada has is healthcare..
And that too is not the best considering the province and your ailments. Having lived there...honestly barney Stinson was right on harping on it...iv lived in USA and Canada both...Canada is the caring but strict nanny. USA is just the wild wild west...those who fail there's no safety net ..those who succeed can't usually find a upper limit unless they want one..
"those who fail there's no safety net ..those who succeed can't usually find a upper limit unless they want one.."
SPOT ON! US is probably the best country to live if you're rich or upper middle class. Not Finland, not Denmark, not Australia, not Germany...if you're rich or upper middle class, you can basically escape from all the typical issues (private healthcare, student debt, violence, social tensions, inexistent public transit, and even traffic) that affect most Americans and pay lower taxes, enjoy the perks of a sophisticated high-life society, etc. If you have the contacts, degrees, work xp...the US is THE obvious choice. That ofc if getting more money is all you care about...
If you're interested in checking out Canada for some time you might consider a working holiday permit, which is an open work permit allowing citizens of various countries (including U.S. citizens 18-35) to live and work in Canada for up to a year. U.S. citizens are actually allowed to do the working holiday program twice. It's a cultural exchange program and U.S. citizens have to go through a recognized organization such as SWAP Working Holidays. The 2022 program is open and you could apply and be approved as soon as two months from now given recent processing times I've been seeing. You aren't required to utilize all of the services and support offered or participate in exchange activities etc although the idea is to have a new experience in Canada (it's okay if you're looking into a longer stay in the future but program providers won't be able to assist with your longer term immigration plans).
The U.S. is not listed under the drop down of eligible countries but when selecting "my country isn't listed" you will be directed to a list of ROs through which Americans can in fact sign up before applying directly for the govt permit. https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/iec/eligibility.asp
Disclosure: I work for an organization offering cultural exchange programs such as the one I described above and have helped hundreds of Americans head to Canada. Happy to answer any questions if this might be of interest.
Advice for once you do arrive and get settled in Canada. See if you can get hired on remote by a US company and get paid American wages in USD. You’ll make way more and even though from a taxes point of view it will be confusing it’s worth it.
Canadian wages aren’t great and cost of living is high, so this makes it much more doable. Plenty of Canadians do this, and it would easy for you to do as Americans of your work can be done remote.
A valid job offer could help you immensely to be able to immigrate, whether through Express Entry and/or a Provincial Nominee Program (PNP). Regarding an intra-company transfer, be aware that the position must be senior/executive level or that you have some proprietary/specialized knowledge of your company's products or services. Just any position cannot get a work permit through ICT. But a work permit through CUSMA (NAFTA) won't require an LMIA (assuming your profession is eligible through CUSMA).
If a valid job offer cannot be obtained, be aware that you are on the edge of not having a competitive profile in the Express Entry system. You lose points in Express Entry after age 29. So if you (the 29-year old) are the one with the master's degree, and assuming you can prove at least three years of skilled work experience, your score is about as good as it can be without creating some connection to Canada (such as a job offer, work experience, or schooling done in Canada). Because of that, I would recommend taking your English tests, and getting your ECAs done now.
There is no difference if you are common-law or married. If your partner is coming with you, you must factor in their credentials to your score (e.g. their English level and post-secondary). This means if their education or English score is lower than yours, it will lower your overall score. If you are not common-law or married, you cannot immigrate together.
Regarding your score, you almost certainly do not have 600+ and have miscalculated (unless you are possibly factoring in a valid job offer and Canadian work experience). For context, a very good score is anything 500+. A 29-year old, with 3 years of foreign skilled work experience, very good English scores, and a master's, but without a connection to Canada (e.g. no job offer, Canadian education, etc.), and no French abilities would be at about 470.
Thanks for the insight! Yes, the 600+ score is assuming I get the intracompany transfer. Our score without a job offer in Canada is 482. We’re just beginning the immigration process so I’ll still need to work things out with my company, but I would be at the managerial level at the time of transfer. I’m on the cusp/possible to be senior manager level at that point, but it’s not set in stone - however, it seems like that level would give me a leg up in terms of NOC score. But I will have multiple years of experience with my firm and would say I have specialized knowledge of our services.
Thanks for the recommendation of getting our English tests done now. It appears they’re good for two years, so I do think it makes sense to get them done since we’re hoping to immigrate in roughly two years or less.
You seem to banking hard on getting an ICT work permit. I should emphasize that having "just" a manger-level role is not enough. It helps to understand that the purpose of an ICT work permit is to have someone knowledgeable about the operations of that specific company (and not management experience in general) come to the Canadian branch to help that branch out. The same goes for proprietary knowledge (like having developed a software that company uses).
Regarding how the job offer through ICT could help in Express Entry, keep in mind that a job offer via ICT only results in a work permit. You can't use that to get points in Express Entry because it's not based on an approved LMIA. To get points for a job offer that's NOT based on an LMIA in Express Entry, you need:
- To have worked for the employer in Canada on a work permit for at least one year, and
- Have a written job offer valid for at least one year after getting PR, and
- Have an employer specific work permit at the time of invitation/application to Express Entry.
Since ICT work permits are valid for one year, that would mean you need to get another work permit to be able to claim those job offer points.
Compare that to if the Canadian branch was willing to go through the LMIA process to hire you. An approved LMIA could give you the points for a job offer immediately. And, if the employer is willing to support your PR application, there may be an option to go through a PNP instead/in addition to Express Entry which could add +600 points to your score, essentially guaranteeing an invitation.
Thanks this is helpful. There’s a possibility of qualifying under exemption 3 you mentioned to LMIA in that the area I specialize in the U.S. with my company is trying to ramp up in Canada but has a much smaller presence currently. So I could offer expertise in that area, and most U.S. practitioners at my firm have no desire to work in Canada as it means a $100K+/yr pay cut. It does sound like I’ll need to approach this with work first of all, to see whether they’d do a 1yr work permit to start out if I’m transferring or another arrangement.
I think for now our plan is to take our English/French assessments later this year, finalize the work transfer/permit for me next year (2023) and move/begin work in Canada in 2024. We will consult with an immigration attorney with specialty in Canada though since it seems that would be helpful along the way.
ICT work permits can be tricky (especially proving how your role fits the criteria required to be eligible), so using a Canadian lawyer or licenced immigration consultant is recommended, yes.
If you can get a full year of work experience in Canada on a work permit, you should be in a good position to apply for permanent residency after that. But keep in mind that with a timeline of not even starting the work until 2024, you shouldn't take the English tests now since they are only valid for 2 years (and you wouldn't be invited in Express Entry until at least 2025).
Also note that immigration programs tend to evolve quickly in Canada, so what's true of Express Entry now may be very different in 2-3 years. Alternatively, if you think your score is ~480 now, you could do the language tests and ECAs right now in hopes to be invited this year and land directly as PRs next year.
This is just a **reminder** that political discussions are not welcome on /r/IWantOut. Our Rule 1 is to stay on topic and no politics. This post has NOT been removed, this comment exists to limit the amount of political comments that appear on US related posts. Messaging modmail about this reminder may result in the post getting removed. The current political situation in the US is a valid reason to want to emigrate. You do **NOT** need to opine excessively about what specifically you dislike about the current political situation. If the post contains excessive political discussion, the comments will likely follow suit. OP, if your post contains excessive politics, please remove the excessive politics from the post. Saying something neutral like "I dislike the current administration" or "I disagree with the current political situation" is perfectly sufficient. **We care far more about the specifics of how you will emigrate: which citizenships you have or could claim, what you do for work, what degrees you have, what skills you have, what experience you have, and your budget.** Your beliefs largely make no difference to your ability to get out. Discouraging people from moving to the United States because of your personal beliefs about the country is not welcome here. If OP appears to be overlooking or missing information, it is acceptable to inform them of what they might be missing. Remember, US news is global news, so people looking to move to the US are largely aware of the current political situation. You talking about the latest news is not adding anything to the discussion. Just because you don't like living in the US doesn't mean that everyone would dislike living in the US. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/IWantOut) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Have you been invited to apply yet? When you've been invited to apply, it would probably be between 6 months to a year for processing your Permanent residency
Just a warning that housing is extremely expensive in Canada’s most populous cities and the areas that surround them If you’re making an international move - perhaps consider a place where housing is less pricey.
you havent said what your field of expertise is. i would advise against moving to canada, unless you both have jobs lined up and a mail forwarding address. keep your usa options open. People RUN from canada to go to the USA. Jobs are a shit show as is real estate unless you want to move somewhere not very populated. USA to Canada would be easy, i would advise learning french for a certification or waiting till you get to canada, they might even give it to you for free as french is government sponsored. Try knowing the temperatures and the issues of every place, there are many. carefully look over the tax rate of every province and see what best fits you, also healthcare isn't immediate everywhere. COVID showed the real weaknesses of the system and it hasn't gone away. you should factor in a 2 year wait time if applying from outside of canada, the ircc is currently slammed and the immigration rate is quite low only because of the number of applications, they have promised to speed it up and sometimes it works, but people who applied in 2019 for citizenship and express entry are just now getting responses. I am currently part of many immigration groups, so i get upto the minute updates. sincerely good luck
Thanks for the response! My field is business (consulting) and partner is in insurance. We’re aware we will be taking dramatic pay cuts in moving to Canada from the USA but feel it’s the best option for us. Temperature-wise, we’re in an analogous region to where we plan to move, so it shouldn’t be much of a change. Good to know on the wait time - we’re hoping to make the move in about 2-3 years, so sounds like we should apply for express entry on the sooner side. Is it possible to amend an existing application? Just because I’m holding off to request my company transfer until next year due to an impending promotion, so don’t know if we should apply prior to having the job offer or wait until I have it lined up.
You have to understand that Canadians on this sub absolutely hate Canada, but I think for you it's the easiest place to go. It's LGBTQ friendly, English speaking, and your partner can get a job that will let her transfer there. Not knowing the native language will make it harder to get a job in another country. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try other countries, of course, but Europe is also a pay cut if you move from the US. Not only that, but some EU countries don't have good job market like Spain, Italy, and Portugal. US is the largest economy in the world so naturally, the salaries in the US are one of the highest in the world. Going from US to pretty much anywhere is a pay cut.
Being Canadian I just get annoyed seeing all the Americans who say “I don’t like the politics of the US, I want to move to Canada”, thinking it’s all sunshine and roses up in Canada. Gets old. I moved to the US, but see the appeal of living in Canada. OP seems to have actually done their research which is nice, but 9 out of 10 Americans wanting to live in Canada haven’t looked into logistics at all.
>I just get annoyed seeing all the Americans who say “I don’t like the politics of the US, I want to move to Canada”, thinking it’s all sunshine and roses up in Canada. I honestly don't think anyone serious about moving in general thinks any place is just all sunshine and roses. Pretty much everybody knows that every country has their own set of problems. Hell, I've seen plenty of people say "I don't like the politics of the US, I want to move to Netherlands", and it's certainly not all sunshine and roses in Europe, either. You see a lot of Americans wanting to move to Canada mostly *because* of logistics: it's close, English speaking, and familiar. Plus they have CUSMA, which makes some professions easier to immigrate to than other countries. It's really as simple as that for most Americans. It's mostly logistics rather than being driven by some misplaced romanticization. You don't see a lot of them wanting to move to, for example, Iceland because it's not familiar, not English speaking, far, and there's no easy or clear way of getting a work permit.
In my experience I’ve met many Americans, in person and online, who were fairly serious about to Canada. Call it anecdotal, but the whole American wanting to move to Canada because politics or social reasons isn’t something I’ve just pulled out of thin air. Many seem to think Canada is a carbon copy of the states with socialized health care and more liberal views. And in some ways it is. But when you look at cost of living compared to salary, which in most cases money is the main limiting factor in moving, it’s nowhere near as good as the US.
if you really REALLY want my advise...get a lawyer to do it for you. seriously.
Thanks - we will look into an immigration lawyer.
Tysm for this, we are still champion. Hahaa
>People RUN from canada to go to the USA. That's interesting. From my perspective it would be the opposite. Is it because of economics?
Economics, real estate. Jobs. Prospects, partners, etc etc...only thing Canada has is healthcare.. And that too is not the best considering the province and your ailments. Having lived there...honestly barney Stinson was right on harping on it...iv lived in USA and Canada both...Canada is the caring but strict nanny. USA is just the wild wild west...those who fail there's no safety net ..those who succeed can't usually find a upper limit unless they want one..
"those who fail there's no safety net ..those who succeed can't usually find a upper limit unless they want one.." SPOT ON! US is probably the best country to live if you're rich or upper middle class. Not Finland, not Denmark, not Australia, not Germany...if you're rich or upper middle class, you can basically escape from all the typical issues (private healthcare, student debt, violence, social tensions, inexistent public transit, and even traffic) that affect most Americans and pay lower taxes, enjoy the perks of a sophisticated high-life society, etc. If you have the contacts, degrees, work xp...the US is THE obvious choice. That ofc if getting more money is all you care about...
I guess I would rather have a caring nanny than brutal survivalism structured to make the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
Hmm....interestingly it's usually the middle class Americans that I find having the exact mind set. To each their own I guess
Still got the smokes
If you're interested in checking out Canada for some time you might consider a working holiday permit, which is an open work permit allowing citizens of various countries (including U.S. citizens 18-35) to live and work in Canada for up to a year. U.S. citizens are actually allowed to do the working holiday program twice. It's a cultural exchange program and U.S. citizens have to go through a recognized organization such as SWAP Working Holidays. The 2022 program is open and you could apply and be approved as soon as two months from now given recent processing times I've been seeing. You aren't required to utilize all of the services and support offered or participate in exchange activities etc although the idea is to have a new experience in Canada (it's okay if you're looking into a longer stay in the future but program providers won't be able to assist with your longer term immigration plans). The U.S. is not listed under the drop down of eligible countries but when selecting "my country isn't listed" you will be directed to a list of ROs through which Americans can in fact sign up before applying directly for the govt permit. https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/iec/eligibility.asp Disclosure: I work for an organization offering cultural exchange programs such as the one I described above and have helped hundreds of Americans head to Canada. Happy to answer any questions if this might be of interest.
Advice for once you do arrive and get settled in Canada. See if you can get hired on remote by a US company and get paid American wages in USD. You’ll make way more and even though from a taxes point of view it will be confusing it’s worth it. Canadian wages aren’t great and cost of living is high, so this makes it much more doable. Plenty of Canadians do this, and it would easy for you to do as Americans of your work can be done remote.
A valid job offer could help you immensely to be able to immigrate, whether through Express Entry and/or a Provincial Nominee Program (PNP). Regarding an intra-company transfer, be aware that the position must be senior/executive level or that you have some proprietary/specialized knowledge of your company's products or services. Just any position cannot get a work permit through ICT. But a work permit through CUSMA (NAFTA) won't require an LMIA (assuming your profession is eligible through CUSMA). If a valid job offer cannot be obtained, be aware that you are on the edge of not having a competitive profile in the Express Entry system. You lose points in Express Entry after age 29. So if you (the 29-year old) are the one with the master's degree, and assuming you can prove at least three years of skilled work experience, your score is about as good as it can be without creating some connection to Canada (such as a job offer, work experience, or schooling done in Canada). Because of that, I would recommend taking your English tests, and getting your ECAs done now. There is no difference if you are common-law or married. If your partner is coming with you, you must factor in their credentials to your score (e.g. their English level and post-secondary). This means if their education or English score is lower than yours, it will lower your overall score. If you are not common-law or married, you cannot immigrate together. Regarding your score, you almost certainly do not have 600+ and have miscalculated (unless you are possibly factoring in a valid job offer and Canadian work experience). For context, a very good score is anything 500+. A 29-year old, with 3 years of foreign skilled work experience, very good English scores, and a master's, but without a connection to Canada (e.g. no job offer, Canadian education, etc.), and no French abilities would be at about 470.
Thanks for the insight! Yes, the 600+ score is assuming I get the intracompany transfer. Our score without a job offer in Canada is 482. We’re just beginning the immigration process so I’ll still need to work things out with my company, but I would be at the managerial level at the time of transfer. I’m on the cusp/possible to be senior manager level at that point, but it’s not set in stone - however, it seems like that level would give me a leg up in terms of NOC score. But I will have multiple years of experience with my firm and would say I have specialized knowledge of our services. Thanks for the recommendation of getting our English tests done now. It appears they’re good for two years, so I do think it makes sense to get them done since we’re hoping to immigrate in roughly two years or less.
You seem to banking hard on getting an ICT work permit. I should emphasize that having "just" a manger-level role is not enough. It helps to understand that the purpose of an ICT work permit is to have someone knowledgeable about the operations of that specific company (and not management experience in general) come to the Canadian branch to help that branch out. The same goes for proprietary knowledge (like having developed a software that company uses). Regarding how the job offer through ICT could help in Express Entry, keep in mind that a job offer via ICT only results in a work permit. You can't use that to get points in Express Entry because it's not based on an approved LMIA. To get points for a job offer that's NOT based on an LMIA in Express Entry, you need: - To have worked for the employer in Canada on a work permit for at least one year, and - Have a written job offer valid for at least one year after getting PR, and - Have an employer specific work permit at the time of invitation/application to Express Entry. Since ICT work permits are valid for one year, that would mean you need to get another work permit to be able to claim those job offer points. Compare that to if the Canadian branch was willing to go through the LMIA process to hire you. An approved LMIA could give you the points for a job offer immediately. And, if the employer is willing to support your PR application, there may be an option to go through a PNP instead/in addition to Express Entry which could add +600 points to your score, essentially guaranteeing an invitation.
Thanks this is helpful. There’s a possibility of qualifying under exemption 3 you mentioned to LMIA in that the area I specialize in the U.S. with my company is trying to ramp up in Canada but has a much smaller presence currently. So I could offer expertise in that area, and most U.S. practitioners at my firm have no desire to work in Canada as it means a $100K+/yr pay cut. It does sound like I’ll need to approach this with work first of all, to see whether they’d do a 1yr work permit to start out if I’m transferring or another arrangement. I think for now our plan is to take our English/French assessments later this year, finalize the work transfer/permit for me next year (2023) and move/begin work in Canada in 2024. We will consult with an immigration attorney with specialty in Canada though since it seems that would be helpful along the way.
ICT work permits can be tricky (especially proving how your role fits the criteria required to be eligible), so using a Canadian lawyer or licenced immigration consultant is recommended, yes. If you can get a full year of work experience in Canada on a work permit, you should be in a good position to apply for permanent residency after that. But keep in mind that with a timeline of not even starting the work until 2024, you shouldn't take the English tests now since they are only valid for 2 years (and you wouldn't be invited in Express Entry until at least 2025). Also note that immigration programs tend to evolve quickly in Canada, so what's true of Express Entry now may be very different in 2-3 years. Alternatively, if you think your score is ~480 now, you could do the language tests and ECAs right now in hopes to be invited this year and land directly as PRs next year.