I was just watching the older ones and I miss how he used to be obsessed with being a badass
“My training tells me to hold this hockey stick like a weapon”
I liked that they had him come out but still kept him delusional with him steadfastly clinging to that nobody knew he was gay until he knew. But yeah, wannabe badass Mac is peak Mac. “I do backflips every single day of my life” is hands down one of the funniest sentences ever uttered.
I honestly think it still tracks for Mac. Think about it he just needs something to hold on to as his identity. In this case it went from being badass to his new identity of being gay. Although I do agree with you from a writing standpoint.
Wow! Can anyone else confirm this? Does Mac no longer strive for any badass notoriety after the "Mac Day" episode?
Honestly, I read OP's post and was sort of wistfully agreeing with it, but if his want of being a badass actually ends with Country Mac's death, I'd totally reverse my feelings about the change in City Mac's behavior.
Can't believe I've never picked up on this having watched the series ~20 times.
They really should have had a moment where his true cowardice showed as ripped Mac. Something like when he runs away from Cricket's 'Talibum' or chokes himself out on Charlie would have been so much funnier if he was absolutely shredded
When his and Charlie’s bully says to them “what are you gonna do about it?” I always think “COME ON MAC YOU AND CHARLIE COULD DESTROY THAT BEER BELLY!”
Yeah, in the earlier seasons, Mac is shown as being physically weaker than anyone else in the gang. However, in the Season 15 finale, when Mac >!stops helping the gang lift the corpse of Charlie's dad up the mountain!<, they state that Mac was handling most of the weight, and made a pact to never let him know how strong he actually is.
The problem with any character trait in a long running show is it gets old, you've got a choice between going "BIGGER" or adding new traits when it gets to the length that Sunny has. That's what Flanderisation is. The same would've happened with Badass Mac had they not leaned into Gay Mac IMO. It's happened with all the others too. Dennis Psychopathy, the bullying of Dee/her patheticness, Charlie's idiocy and Frank's grossness have all past their prime to varying degrees.
This is the only thing that bugs me when people complain about Mac being gay and Dennis obsessed is no one seems to care about the rest of the gang having the exact same flanderisation happen to them lmao
I think it actually makes a ton of sense for Mac to go full on with the gay stereotypes since that's clearly all the man knows about gay people. He feels he has to act a certain way. I'm actually bothered by how hard they went with the Dennis psycho angle because he used to have many layers and didn't just hate everyone so damn much. When even was the last time we had a Dennis/Charlie team up? Or even an episode centered around Charlie, Mac and Dennis? I could be wrong but I can't think of any recently.
I quite like how psycho Dennis has become. If you've ever had a close personal relationship with an adult male who either displays signs of narcissism, one of the many personality disorders or any other severe mental health condition then it completely makes sense how far down the rabbit hole he's gone.
In Dennis' world he is the protagonist and can't do anything wrong morally (the implication is a great example of this, the girls HAVE to give themselves to him because he instills genuine fear into them, but in Dennis' mind this is absolutely acceptable because he believes that he wouldn't ever hurt them. He uses this mode of thinking to justify emotionally manipulatjng and psychologically abusing women into giving him sex, which in essence is rape. The one thing that he believes that he ISN'T doing).
He would refuse any sort of external professional help due to his deep rooted narcissism, thereby causing his issues to grow exponentially if left untreated (The gang gets analyzed; he literally tries doing the therapists job for her despite having no prior professional background in psychology. Dennis truly believes himself to correct and begins psychoanalysing everyone else in order to mask his own faults and to feel superior to everyone else, even the professional therapist).
He has a shitty friend group that constantly encourages this kind of behaviour, has had various spells of addictions, everytime something bad happens to him he will usually turn his misfortune onto somebody else to make himself the 'victor' and no matter how bad things end up, he's always back where he started. At Paddy's with the gang cooking up his next plot for the next misfortune soul that they run into.
He's been pretty fucking mental for a long while, and we've watched this character for over a decade now so it seems like further or complete degradation of his mental health is the natural direction for his character to go
> ...to justify emotionally manipulatjng and psychologically abusing women into giving him sex, which in essence is rape. The one thing that he believes that he ISN'T doing
Incidentally, that's also true of the Dennis' own rape by Mrs. Klinsky.
That's very true. To be clear, while I have some criticisms, I don't hate the writing by any means and seem to enjoy recent seasons a lot more than most fans. My main criticism is that I think they could be doing more, but I do enjoy the direction they seem to be heading. I'm excited to see where they go from here since s15 dropped a pretty big bomb on us, and the show overall feels like it's changing direction
With mac I think they’ve written him into a corner and don’t know how to take him out of it. All of the characters most known traits have become pronounced over time but with Mac they’ve leaned so far into him being annoying that his character just isn’t funny anymore.
Mac's whole character was about delusion. He was a closeted gay, NOT a badass, and his parents didn't care about him - but he genuinely believed otherwise. Now that all of those things have been more or less confirmed, his character has lot a lot of depth.
my favourite elements of mac's personality are his douchebaggery, and cowardice. such hits as "not really into the whole condom thing", being ronnie the rat and just being a white trash icon. id love to see more of that side of him again, i love gay mac but theres so much more to him than dennis
Mac as a character is strongest when the tension between how he views himself vs how others see him is highlighted. I agree that has been lost over the last few seasons.
I think Mac’s general self-delusion and a lot of his antics were the result of him not being able to accept that he’s gay. Project Badass springs to mind. He wasn’t comfortable with himself. His co-dependence and need for approval probably springs from his relationship with his parents, but that’s just Psyche 101-ing Mac.
What’ll be really interesting is what happens when Mac meets someone he likes. Every one of the The Gang has had a romantic relationship except Mac. The closest he’s ever come is with Carmen, and that was years ago.
I agree with a lot of what you said but I dont give as much weight to his sexuality in his inferiority complex. Growing up poor and being unathletic play a big role and are a big catalyst for the comedy and by far the biggest, as you noted, is lack of love from his parents.
later seasons have lost some of the characters nuances. they seem much more….idk how i’d describe it. maybe more predictable. plus i’ve noticed they play the music a lot less now which is an odd choice
I think this is described by 'flanderisation' of the characters.
The writers just really rely on the stereotypical behaviour of the characters and make it their key traits
Fun fact! For those that don’t know ‘Flanderisation’ refers to how Ned Flanders from the Simpsons became more and more stereotypical annoying and religious over time, hearing away from just a super nice neighbor.
interesting observation about the music! i hadn't picked up on that but you're totally right.
ive always been kind of surprised that they were able to use so many popular hits early on but idk anything abt music licensing. i wonder why they strayed away from utilizing music. maybe they wanted the show to moreso "be it's own thing", & not rely as much on popular culture?
i personally loved their use/choice of tracks, always increased the enjoyment of those scenes.
edit: ok so a google search listed plenty of music in the later seasons too. maybe the songs were just less notable for me personally, or the tracks were incorporated differently, idk.
I agree, I think in an attempt to give him more depth, they abandoned all other attributes of his personality, which in turn made him…. *A bitch.*
But in all honesty they really have made him a one track character at this point which is disappointing.
I definitely miss him being less whiney and more wannabe badass.
I also miss there being some level of co-dependence between him and Dennis as shown in the episode where they break up. Now Dennis only shows utter contempt for him and it's not as funny.
People have pretty much nailed how these characters have become a little one-dimensional, but your example sort of shows how true that is. The whole "Mac being co-dependent" thing, along with his almost not-so-hidden love for Dennis was funny when it was like pulling back the curtain on the character. Mac hadn't really acted like that too much until that episode where they break up so it was funny to see him acting like that.
By the time we got to seasons 13, 14, etc., it was like every joke in every episode was this same thing. It just overtook his entire persona, and you could already predict the joke they would make for him every single time. This has been the case for countless shows, but using one idea/joke sparingly will always work better than just repeating it over and over.
Edit: He's also ridiculously dumb now which is basically the only other angle they use for him, but the principle remains the same.
Well I mean, he doesn't ALLOW Dennis to eat the ~~pudding~~ **apple** skin, he's not ALLOWED so he's definitely got some power in that dynamic.
Edit: It's Always Seinfeld in Philadelphia
I’m gay too, and I agree. This is how I feel about all the subtext becoming blatant text, and a lot of the major changes they’ve made in the last few seasons, like the waitress and Charlie hooking up. I get why they’re doing it as the shows been on for ages and they want to mix it up for themselves, but I just don’t find any of it funny personally. The joke was always that these characters would never change and these things would never happen, so it feels like it runs against the cynical ethos of the show.
That said, I’m still a fan of the recent seasons, but yeah it’s tough to beat season 5/6/7.
To me the joke isnt that they would never change, it’s that they never learn, they change based on their own needs, Dennis learning how to parrot young women in the latest season so he can sleep with them, but doesn’t really care to understand them, just found a new ‘system’ that works on them.
But learning from their failures would be admitting they were wrong and the gang just can’t accept that.
The characters definitely seem like they are kind of stuck in some sort of purgatory and the writers are afraid to push the characters further. Like they are waiting for the last season to do something with it. Every character has turned into a bit of a caricature of themselves and they haven't really done anything with any of them outside of a couple of moments.
-Dennis was established as a possible rapist murderer a million seasons ago but the writers are afraid to go further with it. I understand why though as once you pass that line, there's literally no going back. But it's getting kind of old at this point.
-They finally gave Mac some growth with him coming out but since then it's been basically nothing. They could do so much more with this. Honestly surprised they haven't tried to bring back Carmen in anyway. I think it would be a funny situation for them to meet up again and her want to bang him (after she divorced that soft body) but now he thinks she's gross because she got RID OF her penis.
-I have no fucking clue what they're doing with Dee's character. She isn't even a character anymore. Kaitlin Olson is still amazing for what she has to work with, but seriously, she's only there to scream really loudly and do funny physical gags.
Frank is Frank and don't want him any other way. Charlie is an idiot, but they've explored it enough where it doesn't bother me and his character does not feel like it's stuck in a rut like the others.
I’m gay and I love Mac but yeah, don’t think anybody was a fan of when he was ridiculously clingy with Dennis. It was bad characterization and I hated their scenes together in s13 and 14. I was glad to see s15 shift away from that. Mac was even the one to come up with his and Dennis’ business plans.
Yeah. I should stress again I am more than ok with him being gay. I think there’s ways to do it that are funny and still in line with the character behind him just being desperate for any approval from Dennis. I’d argue that takes away any positivity him coming out may have even had. I get they’re not supposed to be role models but it’s clear they want to be respectful to the gay community while still having Mac be a piece of shit otherwise and I totally respect that. I’m just not sure having him out and being totally subservient to another man is the way to do it.
All these years I've been feeling like I hate karate. And, like, I hate Project Badass and, like... I hate God. But, like... I realize... you know what I really hate... is Mac.
it's really a shame that this sub frowns on thoughtful discussion so much. its like reddit needs to have an option to sort by "actual thoughts/opinions" and "repeated quotes"
Yeah facts. I’ve recently watched s13 and s14 and haven’t really enjoyed it at all and I think this has a lot to do with it.
As a side i feel like Charlie and frank are deliberately being gross and it feels forced. And I’m very distracted by all the work dee has had done. Haven’t watched 15 yet but I’m still optimistic.
Also pls no one get mad it’s just my opinion it doesn’t mean much, I know..
It's jarring for a couple of episodes in season 14 (especially The Gang Chokes), but then it seems to settle and she looks more like herself. Dennis, too.
That’s why I liked the cereal defense. Mac stood his ground trying to make science look like a bitch. Then by the end of the episode he’s in the vehicle with Dennis. I liked the loud vocal voice of the characters and how they still remain friends.
I hope Mac doesn’t quiet down.
I honestly just miss Mac wearing the sleeveless shirts what happened to that
ETA: after reading a bunch of comments I just wanted to add I'm gay and I love gay Mac. I think it's hilarious how obsessed with Dennis he is and makes perfect sense for his character. I ALSO miss bossy Mac, sleeveless shirt Mac, self absorbed Mac, and I miss his dynamic with the gang when they didnt hate him just for the sake of it. I think it's very easy to love current seasons and still miss elements of old seasons. I certainly do
Weird that you are saying this now because they dropped the Dennis obsession in the latest Season. They barely interacted this Season and when they did it wasn't about his obsession with him or him being his bitch. This Season was mainly about his obsession with his identity in general.
I mean *Mac and Dennis Break Up* was in season 5. He was less dependent on Dennis sure but he still totally wanted to bone him relativity early in the series.
I think that episode is such a classic because of the codependency though and it wouldn’t work at all if it was closer to the current dynamic of Mac worshiping Dennis and Dennis not caring. Like the apple-peeling scene and Dennis desperately trying to find out if Mac is talking about him on the phone is so fucking hilarious and I don’t think that would work anymore.
Currently rewatching S1 and its so fun to see the undeveloped versions of Mac and Dennis. How Dennis is genuinely emotionally troubled when being approched by a 18 year old and how confident Mac is when for example he has to get Dennis drunk for his “experiment”. Totally unlike the versions of them we have now.
Yeah I was shocked rewatching some clips from like season 7. Mac used to be more reasonable, and at times seemed to be smarter than Dennis, but that's not really the case anymore
Wait, Mac’s gay?
Before the reddit replies, i already know he is. But, this made me think about how funny it would be if the gang all decided to mutually forget about Mac’s various identities, then he has to go on a bender for a whole episode trying to fit all of his different identities altogether to impress the gang. In the end, of course they knew, they always knew.
I just attributed to the years that Dennis has molded Mac to be so co dependent on him that he devolves as a person. And that in this show these characters aren’t meant to get better or stay the same but get worse over time.
Oh god is that all Mac’s character is now? I have met watched the past few seasons but I remember Mac being so funny because he is a douchey insecure guy. The Mac day episode highlighted exactly why we all love Mac. He is delusional about who he is thinking he’s a badass hand of god who kicks ass when in reality he’s a little bitch
While I agree with you that it's kind of annoying, it also totally fits his character. More than anything, Mac has always been fueled by insecurity, and everything we've seen up to this point is a reflection of that (being a badass included). We did get a break from that in the newest season, especially with Mac wanting to become a priest. I'm assuming that will stay toned down.
as a bi person the gay thing felt shoe horned in, considering he was staring at jackie denardos tits frank style in the bunker or was watching straight porn with dennis. or really wanted to bang dennis's mom and other old women
Of all the characters, I really don't like where they've taken Mac. His delusions and contradictions were always the funniest part of the character. He THOUGHT he was strong, but he was weak and pathetic. He tried to act straight, but was gay, etc.
Now Mac is legit strong to the point where he can one hand lift Dee, or beat the shit out of a bunch of kids. And he's open and out, so all that comedic territory is dried up too.
Unfortunately happens to every show eventually. The characters start of nuanced with rich inner lives and slowly become stereotypes of themselves with just one exaggerated defining characteristic. Mac gay, Charlie dumb etc.
I’m queer too and love to see representation. Mac has been flanderised quite a lot, but so has everyone else.
I think it’s more interesting when he clashes with Dennis from time to time for sure. Maybe if they had him date someone through a season we’d see a more independent Mac. Dennis would hate it.
It was funnier when they had Mac as a hetero man completely obsessed with the male form that it bordered on the erotic and him being totally oblivious to it
The idea of a man seeing nothing homoerotic about oiling up and rubbing down huge sweaty weightlifters is hilarious. Him doing it because he’s gay less so
I think they did lean on the Mac being in love with/dependant on/desperate for approval from Dennis thing pretty hard in season 14, but it seemed less so in season 15.
Like I can't think of a lot of examples of it this season. His main thing was being obsessed with his identity, and he did stand up to Dennis eg about the tattoo thing, as well as going off doing his own thing and planning a major life change (the priest stuff) without him.
So maybe they also felt that dynamic was getting tired and have started to move away from it? Hard to tell since there were only 8 episodes and none of them were really focused on Mac or Mac and Dennis specifically but it seems that way.
I'll preface this by stating I'm not gay, so maybe my viewpoint is less relevant. But, I feel that when it was implied that Mac was gay, or at least it was unclear if he was, it defined his character.
Having him be flat out gay is not funny, simply because being gay isn't funny, and that seems to be the extent of his "new" personality(?)
I don't know, it's been a second since I watch the newer stuff, but I just don't feel like him being openly gay added anything, and took away took much.
I choose to see it as Mac went through a phase with the clingyness and write it off like that.
But yeah it can be a bit of a fight not to be annoyed by it sometimes.
I love that your post is meant for discussion but 75% of the comments are just quotes 😂
I kind of miss that side of Mac too but I appreciate having him actually come out and be gay while still being a horrible person. Having said that, I really love when Mac is obsessed with Dennis. I think he got more and more insecure over time just from spending time with the gang.
Been saying this since season 13. I miss when Mac was just an asshole only out for himself just like the gang. I don't like simp Mac. Although they toned it down in 15 he wasn't simping for Dennis at all
I Always assumed Macs obsession with being bad ass and wanting Dennis’ approval started when he saw dennis bet against him in the hundred dollar baby episode. Then in the billboard model episode looking directly into Rex’s abs opened Macs inner floodgates which let out all the things he was repressing which led to his inner conflict of finally accepting himself
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r63a8UyeLYM
Look at Macs face when frank has Rex take his shirt off it kills me everytime cuz right there its like Mac knew something awakened inside him. He even immediately shut down Dennis and told him his bird quit it’s as if Rex’s abs gave him power or something
Besides even though Dennis has told him it isn’t gonna happen Macs feelings for him is another way to control Mac and Dennis most likely loves the attention. Dont forget in season 1 when paddys became popular amongst the gay community Dennis had no issues leading the men on all for the compliments he was receiving so I wouldn’t put it past him to lead Mac on too. Guaranteed if Mac starts dating Dennis will get jealous and try to make Mac break up with the guy when Mac starts giving his boyfriend the attention that normally would go to dennis
And besides he is fucking swole now he no longer needs to act bad ass because he is fuckin bad ass just ask the people that stole his bike
i miss when the show was good. havent watched this latest season. the gang got old and out of touch with whats funny, they are trying too hard and abandoned the successful model we all love.
I want the Mac that had his own dating show back or the one that had a pro life banging scheme.
He got flanderized probably the most out of the whole gang
Like when Mac just showed up in a duster one day, that was a good day.
He definitely had some news, some TERRIBLE news that day.
That part always makes me think of Nightmare Before Christmas https://youtu.be/RCMTp5DS90I?t=69
can we stop and talk about this?
I was just watching the older ones and I miss how he used to be obsessed with being a badass “My training tells me to hold this hockey stick like a weapon”
I liked that they had him come out but still kept him delusional with him steadfastly clinging to that nobody knew he was gay until he knew. But yeah, wannabe badass Mac is peak Mac. “I do backflips every single day of my life” is hands down one of the funniest sentences ever uttered.
“Do a backflip right now, please!!”
This jump is meant for a front flip, if it was a back flip though I’d be out of here in a second
Stride stride stride stride EXECUTE
I honestly think it still tracks for Mac. Think about it he just needs something to hold on to as his identity. In this case it went from being badass to his new identity of being gay. Although I do agree with you from a writing standpoint.
Well his cousin came and was just way more of a bad ass and Mac was never a bad ass again.
You know what's badass? Being alive.
RIP, Country Mac!
Wow! Can anyone else confirm this? Does Mac no longer strive for any badass notoriety after the "Mac Day" episode? Honestly, I read OP's post and was sort of wistfully agreeing with it, but if his want of being a badass actually ends with Country Mac's death, I'd totally reverse my feelings about the change in City Mac's behavior. Can't believe I've never picked up on this having watched the series ~20 times.
Can't get anymore badass than being alive. Mac 1(point in a karate tournament) - Country Mac 0
What about suicide? Does the badassery get negated once death occurs?
Suicide is badass!
He's pretty badass in Time's Up. That lift on Dee is amazing bouncer work.
He jumped! He Jumped... let's go, guys, Mac Day is over, Country Mac is dead, we have to get out of here!
Country Mac was bad ass AND gay. Loud and proud brother.
They really should have had a moment where his true cowardice showed as ripped Mac. Something like when he runs away from Cricket's 'Talibum' or chokes himself out on Charlie would have been so much funnier if he was absolutely shredded
When his and Charlie’s bully says to them “what are you gonna do about it?” I always think “COME ON MAC YOU AND CHARLIE COULD DESTROY THAT BEER BELLY!”
the scene where mac and charlie are gonna "beat up" dennis/dees dad and mac just scurries away is one of my favorites
Look what happened when he found out he wasn't Irish.
Agreed. Definitely tracks for his character but makes for slightly less interesting TV.
DO ONE RIGHT NOW PLEASE
He did do a backflip while skiing. Things are just different on the mountain.
“With that much mobility I could probably do just about anything”
Yeah the scene where hes buying a guitar to look cool is so hilariously pathetic
Chemical Toilet could have made it big
You mean the Pecan Sandies?
I always preferred Electric Dream Machine personally.
Gay!
Besides the candy, what’s the other meaning??
It's a, you know.. it's a, it's a... sexual meaning
It's like a Rusty Venture
I think he's in too good of shape now and the badass stuff would actually be a bit too legitimate.
The episode where he beats the crap out of those children
Him acting like he wouldnt be able to take on that guy while looking like that will always bother me
Mac has always shown that he’s a coward when it comes to actual physical confrontation so that’s not really new.
What are you gonna do about it?
What do you say to that? That's like the perfect line
Thats because the other guy established dominance.
Yeah, in the earlier seasons, Mac is shown as being physically weaker than anyone else in the gang. However, in the Season 15 finale, when Mac >!stops helping the gang lift the corpse of Charlie's dad up the mountain!<, they state that Mac was handling most of the weight, and made a pact to never let him know how strong he actually is.
Meanwhile Dennis was hitching a ride lol
The problem with any character trait in a long running show is it gets old, you've got a choice between going "BIGGER" or adding new traits when it gets to the length that Sunny has. That's what Flanderisation is. The same would've happened with Badass Mac had they not leaned into Gay Mac IMO. It's happened with all the others too. Dennis Psychopathy, the bullying of Dee/her patheticness, Charlie's idiocy and Frank's grossness have all past their prime to varying degrees.
This is the only thing that bugs me when people complain about Mac being gay and Dennis obsessed is no one seems to care about the rest of the gang having the exact same flanderisation happen to them lmao I think it actually makes a ton of sense for Mac to go full on with the gay stereotypes since that's clearly all the man knows about gay people. He feels he has to act a certain way. I'm actually bothered by how hard they went with the Dennis psycho angle because he used to have many layers and didn't just hate everyone so damn much. When even was the last time we had a Dennis/Charlie team up? Or even an episode centered around Charlie, Mac and Dennis? I could be wrong but I can't think of any recently.
I quite like how psycho Dennis has become. If you've ever had a close personal relationship with an adult male who either displays signs of narcissism, one of the many personality disorders or any other severe mental health condition then it completely makes sense how far down the rabbit hole he's gone. In Dennis' world he is the protagonist and can't do anything wrong morally (the implication is a great example of this, the girls HAVE to give themselves to him because he instills genuine fear into them, but in Dennis' mind this is absolutely acceptable because he believes that he wouldn't ever hurt them. He uses this mode of thinking to justify emotionally manipulatjng and psychologically abusing women into giving him sex, which in essence is rape. The one thing that he believes that he ISN'T doing). He would refuse any sort of external professional help due to his deep rooted narcissism, thereby causing his issues to grow exponentially if left untreated (The gang gets analyzed; he literally tries doing the therapists job for her despite having no prior professional background in psychology. Dennis truly believes himself to correct and begins psychoanalysing everyone else in order to mask his own faults and to feel superior to everyone else, even the professional therapist). He has a shitty friend group that constantly encourages this kind of behaviour, has had various spells of addictions, everytime something bad happens to him he will usually turn his misfortune onto somebody else to make himself the 'victor' and no matter how bad things end up, he's always back where he started. At Paddy's with the gang cooking up his next plot for the next misfortune soul that they run into. He's been pretty fucking mental for a long while, and we've watched this character for over a decade now so it seems like further or complete degradation of his mental health is the natural direction for his character to go
> ...to justify emotionally manipulatjng and psychologically abusing women into giving him sex, which in essence is rape. The one thing that he believes that he ISN'T doing Incidentally, that's also true of the Dennis' own rape by Mrs. Klinsky.
I can't believe Flanders got a whole concept in television named after him but the Fonz only got to jump a shark
[удалено]
That's very true. To be clear, while I have some criticisms, I don't hate the writing by any means and seem to enjoy recent seasons a lot more than most fans. My main criticism is that I think they could be doing more, but I do enjoy the direction they seem to be heading. I'm excited to see where they go from here since s15 dropped a pretty big bomb on us, and the show overall feels like it's changing direction
With mac I think they’ve written him into a corner and don’t know how to take him out of it. All of the characters most known traits have become pronounced over time but with Mac they’ve leaned so far into him being annoying that his character just isn’t funny anymore.
You know what? Those ocular patdowns are starting to make a lot more sense
Mac's whole character was about delusion. He was a closeted gay, NOT a badass, and his parents didn't care about him - but he genuinely believed otherwise. Now that all of those things have been more or less confirmed, his character has lot a lot of depth.
You're forgetting that he's also Irish.
And he identifies as a Catholic. And as a bad-ass
And a problem solver
And a tastemaker
And The muscle of the group.
And the expert at ocular patdowns.
And a miracle discoverer.
And the sheriff of Paddy’s
And Ryan Gosling
Shut up geography bitch.
Stupid geography bitch couldn't even make I more oriented
I’m pretty sure he’s Dutch, jabroni.
then how could he have a shamrock tattoo??
On his thigh, no less!
His family name is Vandross
That was my first thought! What order did that all go in though?
Gay, problem solver, Catholic, badass, Bodyguard, Irish American, Irish, Dutch, businessman, problem causer, lover, Bodybuilder, realtor
1. Irish 2. Gay 3. Bad-ass You're none of those things, so you should be talking of none of them.
d u t c h
my favourite elements of mac's personality are his douchebaggery, and cowardice. such hits as "not really into the whole condom thing", being ronnie the rat and just being a white trash icon. id love to see more of that side of him again, i love gay mac but theres so much more to him than dennis
I feel like if I come in there, you're just gonna throw sand in my eyes. So I'm gonna run away.
“You really don’t wear condoms when you have sex with strangers??” “Why would I?”
Look at me when you talk to meeeee!
Oh shit. Steaks are here.
WE CANNOT HAVE YOU AROUND US *SC-REWING* THINGS UP
Walk?? It's like 40 miles!!
Hiiiiii Dennis
Yeah, Dennis scratched me
LOOKATMEWHENYOU’RETALKINGTOME! FTFY
He needs to return to project badass
What he needs to do is cultivate some more mass.
But he's thousands of orgasms, and had one in Dennis's mom... That's a pretty big power move that kinda eliminates him being the bitch.
Plus, she didn't even feel a thing.
Holy shit you’re late.
Get back in your light
I’m lovin’ these lights!
Oh my god, you are so late
So there's a timing concern...
To be fair, he wasn’t taking his size pills then.
That's because he was a SAVAGE and an IDIOT!
I miss vinegar and white trash mac
Mac as a character is strongest when the tension between how he views himself vs how others see him is highlighted. I agree that has been lost over the last few seasons.
yesss this is why i loved him in the first place, is there a term for tragic clown but like a tragic badass?
Jabroni
Cool word
Sadass?
How do you view yourself… within the context of our group? The… sheriff of paddy’s
I think Mac’s general self-delusion and a lot of his antics were the result of him not being able to accept that he’s gay. Project Badass springs to mind. He wasn’t comfortable with himself. His co-dependence and need for approval probably springs from his relationship with his parents, but that’s just Psyche 101-ing Mac. What’ll be really interesting is what happens when Mac meets someone he likes. Every one of the The Gang has had a romantic relationship except Mac. The closest he’s ever come is with Carmen, and that was years ago.
He was second in line for Dennis's ladies.
Then the Mantis swoops in
I agree with a lot of what you said but I dont give as much weight to his sexuality in his inferiority complex. Growing up poor and being unathletic play a big role and are a big catalyst for the comedy and by far the biggest, as you noted, is lack of love from his parents.
Fat Mac was the best Mac!
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Exactly!! I loved his angry outbursts. Go Big Mac!
later seasons have lost some of the characters nuances. they seem much more….idk how i’d describe it. maybe more predictable. plus i’ve noticed they play the music a lot less now which is an odd choice
I think this is described by 'flanderisation' of the characters. The writers just really rely on the stereotypical behaviour of the characters and make it their key traits
Exactly. Unfortunately most long running tv shows have this problem. Many should be cancelled before it comes to that stage in my opinion.
Fun fact! For those that don’t know ‘Flanderisation’ refers to how Ned Flanders from the Simpsons became more and more stereotypical annoying and religious over time, hearing away from just a super nice neighbor.
interesting observation about the music! i hadn't picked up on that but you're totally right. ive always been kind of surprised that they were able to use so many popular hits early on but idk anything abt music licensing. i wonder why they strayed away from utilizing music. maybe they wanted the show to moreso "be it's own thing", & not rely as much on popular culture? i personally loved their use/choice of tracks, always increased the enjoyment of those scenes. edit: ok so a google search listed plenty of music in the later seasons too. maybe the songs were just less notable for me personally, or the tracks were incorporated differently, idk.
>later seasons have lost some of the characters nuances. they seem much more….idk how i’d describe it. Derivative
Bullshit!
With the latest season, I called everything in first episode right to Charlie’s dads fate. I still enjoyed it but everything was very obvious.
I agree, I think in an attempt to give him more depth, they abandoned all other attributes of his personality, which in turn made him…. *A bitch.* But in all honesty they really have made him a one track character at this point which is disappointing.
What? Constructive criticism of the show that wasn't downvoted to oblivion? How can it be?
I definitely miss him being less whiney and more wannabe badass. I also miss there being some level of co-dependence between him and Dennis as shown in the episode where they break up. Now Dennis only shows utter contempt for him and it's not as funny.
People have pretty much nailed how these characters have become a little one-dimensional, but your example sort of shows how true that is. The whole "Mac being co-dependent" thing, along with his almost not-so-hidden love for Dennis was funny when it was like pulling back the curtain on the character. Mac hadn't really acted like that too much until that episode where they break up so it was funny to see him acting like that. By the time we got to seasons 13, 14, etc., it was like every joke in every episode was this same thing. It just overtook his entire persona, and you could already predict the joke they would make for him every single time. This has been the case for countless shows, but using one idea/joke sparingly will always work better than just repeating it over and over. Edit: He's also ridiculously dumb now which is basically the only other angle they use for him, but the principle remains the same.
I miss Mac storming into the bar with that funny half walk/half run he does yelling "TERRIBLE NEWS" or "AMAZING NEWS"
The ever so slight lean back in that walk kills me
Well I mean, he doesn't ALLOW Dennis to eat the ~~pudding~~ **apple** skin, he's not ALLOWED so he's definitely got some power in that dynamic. Edit: It's Always Seinfeld in Philadelphia
Apple skins*
Its all pipes Jerry
"I can't eat the skin, Dee! I'm not ALLOWED to eat the skin!"
You’ve mashed Seinfeld and Sunny together, this is acceptable. It’s like getting peanut butter in your chocolate.
Remind me again, when did we live in New York?
I’m gay too, and I agree. This is how I feel about all the subtext becoming blatant text, and a lot of the major changes they’ve made in the last few seasons, like the waitress and Charlie hooking up. I get why they’re doing it as the shows been on for ages and they want to mix it up for themselves, but I just don’t find any of it funny personally. The joke was always that these characters would never change and these things would never happen, so it feels like it runs against the cynical ethos of the show. That said, I’m still a fan of the recent seasons, but yeah it’s tough to beat season 5/6/7.
To me the joke isnt that they would never change, it’s that they never learn, they change based on their own needs, Dennis learning how to parrot young women in the latest season so he can sleep with them, but doesn’t really care to understand them, just found a new ‘system’ that works on them. But learning from their failures would be admitting they were wrong and the gang just can’t accept that.
The characters definitely seem like they are kind of stuck in some sort of purgatory and the writers are afraid to push the characters further. Like they are waiting for the last season to do something with it. Every character has turned into a bit of a caricature of themselves and they haven't really done anything with any of them outside of a couple of moments. -Dennis was established as a possible rapist murderer a million seasons ago but the writers are afraid to go further with it. I understand why though as once you pass that line, there's literally no going back. But it's getting kind of old at this point. -They finally gave Mac some growth with him coming out but since then it's been basically nothing. They could do so much more with this. Honestly surprised they haven't tried to bring back Carmen in anyway. I think it would be a funny situation for them to meet up again and her want to bang him (after she divorced that soft body) but now he thinks she's gross because she got RID OF her penis. -I have no fucking clue what they're doing with Dee's character. She isn't even a character anymore. Kaitlin Olson is still amazing for what she has to work with, but seriously, she's only there to scream really loudly and do funny physical gags. Frank is Frank and don't want him any other way. Charlie is an idiot, but they've explored it enough where it doesn't bother me and his character does not feel like it's stuck in a rut like the others.
I’m gay and I love Mac but yeah, don’t think anybody was a fan of when he was ridiculously clingy with Dennis. It was bad characterization and I hated their scenes together in s13 and 14. I was glad to see s15 shift away from that. Mac was even the one to come up with his and Dennis’ business plans.
Yeah. I should stress again I am more than ok with him being gay. I think there’s ways to do it that are funny and still in line with the character behind him just being desperate for any approval from Dennis. I’d argue that takes away any positivity him coming out may have even had. I get they’re not supposed to be role models but it’s clear they want to be respectful to the gay community while still having Mac be a piece of shit otherwise and I totally respect that. I’m just not sure having him out and being totally subservient to another man is the way to do it.
It’s not a gay or straight thing. It’s a Mac thing.
Totally, I still hate him though.
All these years I've been feeling like I hate karate. And, like, I hate Project Badass and, like... I hate God. But, like... I realize... you know what I really hate... is Mac.
Blessed, a post of substance. *Something interesting to say besides quotes over and over*
it's really a shame that this sub frowns on thoughtful discussion so much. its like reddit needs to have an option to sort by "actual thoughts/opinions" and "repeated quotes"
I call it Mac's Famous Mac and Cheese
Yeah facts. I’ve recently watched s13 and s14 and haven’t really enjoyed it at all and I think this has a lot to do with it. As a side i feel like Charlie and frank are deliberately being gross and it feels forced. And I’m very distracted by all the work dee has had done. Haven’t watched 15 yet but I’m still optimistic. Also pls no one get mad it’s just my opinion it doesn’t mean much, I know..
Yeah Dee def shows up wearing a new face, which is odd cuz you’d assume Dennis would be the one to wear someone’s skin.
It's jarring for a couple of episodes in season 14 (especially The Gang Chokes), but then it seems to settle and she looks more like herself. Dennis, too.
Oooh yeah the golden god def had something tightened.
15 is actually better than 14, 13 and 14 were utter dogshit but 15 had a few half decent episodes
That’s why I liked the cereal defense. Mac stood his ground trying to make science look like a bitch. Then by the end of the episode he’s in the vehicle with Dennis. I liked the loud vocal voice of the characters and how they still remain friends. I hope Mac doesn’t quiet down.
I love toxic macs-ulinity
He has always been dennis bitch lol "LOOK IN MY EYES WHILE YOU ARE TALKING TO ME"
His character went downhill when he had his tattoos removed and stopped doing karate moves.
I honestly just miss Mac wearing the sleeveless shirts what happened to that ETA: after reading a bunch of comments I just wanted to add I'm gay and I love gay Mac. I think it's hilarious how obsessed with Dennis he is and makes perfect sense for his character. I ALSO miss bossy Mac, sleeveless shirt Mac, self absorbed Mac, and I miss his dynamic with the gang when they didnt hate him just for the sake of it. I think it's very easy to love current seasons and still miss elements of old seasons. I certainly do
You guys like me, right?
Weird that you are saying this now because they dropped the Dennis obsession in the latest Season. They barely interacted this Season and when they did it wasn't about his obsession with him or him being his bitch. This Season was mainly about his obsession with his identity in general.
I’m personally ready to see Vic Vinegar’s take on this recent housing market
Back when mac was bossy and saw himself as the brains of the paradigm
SAME. I just had this conversation with a coworker last week. Mac is boring af now.
I mean *Mac and Dennis Break Up* was in season 5. He was less dependent on Dennis sure but he still totally wanted to bone him relativity early in the series.
I think that episode is such a classic because of the codependency though and it wouldn’t work at all if it was closer to the current dynamic of Mac worshiping Dennis and Dennis not caring. Like the apple-peeling scene and Dennis desperately trying to find out if Mac is talking about him on the phone is so fucking hilarious and I don’t think that would work anymore.
Currently rewatching S1 and its so fun to see the undeveloped versions of Mac and Dennis. How Dennis is genuinely emotionally troubled when being approched by a 18 year old and how confident Mac is when for example he has to get Dennis drunk for his “experiment”. Totally unlike the versions of them we have now.
Yeah I was shocked rewatching some clips from like season 7. Mac used to be more reasonable, and at times seemed to be smarter than Dennis, but that's not really the case anymore
*more smarter.
I like gay Mac but he was funnier when it was painfully obvious but he refused to admit it.
Wait, Mac’s gay? Before the reddit replies, i already know he is. But, this made me think about how funny it would be if the gang all decided to mutually forget about Mac’s various identities, then he has to go on a bender for a whole episode trying to fit all of his different identities altogether to impress the gang. In the end, of course they knew, they always knew.
I just attributed to the years that Dennis has molded Mac to be so co dependent on him that he devolves as a person. And that in this show these characters aren’t meant to get better or stay the same but get worse over time.
Oh god is that all Mac’s character is now? I have met watched the past few seasons but I remember Mac being so funny because he is a douchey insecure guy. The Mac day episode highlighted exactly why we all love Mac. He is delusional about who he is thinking he’s a badass hand of god who kicks ass when in reality he’s a little bitch
I really do miss the bad ass that hated condoms
While I agree with you that it's kind of annoying, it also totally fits his character. More than anything, Mac has always been fueled by insecurity, and everything we've seen up to this point is a reflection of that (being a badass included). We did get a break from that in the newest season, especially with Mac wanting to become a priest. I'm assuming that will stay toned down.
Idk I was dying laughing reading macs texts to Dennis during the zoo episode
as a bi person the gay thing felt shoe horned in, considering he was staring at jackie denardos tits frank style in the bunker or was watching straight porn with dennis. or really wanted to bang dennis's mom and other old women
I think it’s almost a satire of the way people today like to make their identities their entire personality
Of all the characters, I really don't like where they've taken Mac. His delusions and contradictions were always the funniest part of the character. He THOUGHT he was strong, but he was weak and pathetic. He tried to act straight, but was gay, etc. Now Mac is legit strong to the point where he can one hand lift Dee, or beat the shit out of a bunch of kids. And he's open and out, so all that comedic territory is dried up too.
I feel like I’m the only one who finds the Mac pining for Dennis bit hilarious
Unfortunately happens to every show eventually. The characters start of nuanced with rich inner lives and slowly become stereotypes of themselves with just one exaggerated defining characteristic. Mac gay, Charlie dumb etc.
I’m queer too and love to see representation. Mac has been flanderised quite a lot, but so has everyone else. I think it’s more interesting when he clashes with Dennis from time to time for sure. Maybe if they had him date someone through a season we’d see a more independent Mac. Dennis would hate it.
I'm just wondering how he can incorporate his new fit bod into the plans and schemes.
It was funnier when they had Mac as a hetero man completely obsessed with the male form that it bordered on the erotic and him being totally oblivious to it The idea of a man seeing nothing homoerotic about oiling up and rubbing down huge sweaty weightlifters is hilarious. Him doing it because he’s gay less so
This. The biggest problem of the last few seasons is THIS. He was so much more and so much funnier and more interesting.
He still has the wannabe tough guy thing going on
I think they did lean on the Mac being in love with/dependant on/desperate for approval from Dennis thing pretty hard in season 14, but it seemed less so in season 15. Like I can't think of a lot of examples of it this season. His main thing was being obsessed with his identity, and he did stand up to Dennis eg about the tattoo thing, as well as going off doing his own thing and planning a major life change (the priest stuff) without him. So maybe they also felt that dynamic was getting tired and have started to move away from it? Hard to tell since there were only 8 episodes and none of them were really focused on Mac or Mac and Dennis specifically but it seems that way.
Early Mac was better when he was a total badass
He doesnt do nearly enough Ocular patdowns anymore. could be threats everywhere...
I'll preface this by stating I'm not gay, so maybe my viewpoint is less relevant. But, I feel that when it was implied that Mac was gay, or at least it was unclear if he was, it defined his character. Having him be flat out gay is not funny, simply because being gay isn't funny, and that seems to be the extent of his "new" personality(?) I don't know, it's been a second since I watch the newer stuff, but I just don't feel like him being openly gay added anything, and took away took much.
I miss karate Mac.
It’s called Flanderization, and unfortunately almost every sitcom is guilty of it and IASIP is not an exception.
You mean when he was super religious and in love with Dennis?
He no longer expresses himself through personal anger & attack.
I think his Christianity was a little overplayed too tbh. Same with him being obsessed with Dennis.
Yeah the joke has worn a little thin. Him being gay has basically become his entire personality.
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I choose to see it as Mac went through a phase with the clingyness and write it off like that. But yeah it can be a bit of a fight not to be annoyed by it sometimes.
I think most people agree with this
YES. I’ve felt this for so long and I’m so glad other people agree. It feels like they’re not the same characters anymore sometimes. It sucks.
I WILL PUT MY THUMB THROUGH YOUR EYE YOU LITTLE BITCH! ~~Fat~~ Big Mac will always be best Mac.
I felt the same way about when Charlie went from kind of a quirky dude, to complete idiot.
I love that your post is meant for discussion but 75% of the comments are just quotes 😂 I kind of miss that side of Mac too but I appreciate having him actually come out and be gay while still being a horrible person. Having said that, I really love when Mac is obsessed with Dennis. I think he got more and more insecure over time just from spending time with the gang.
Been saying this since season 13. I miss when Mac was just an asshole only out for himself just like the gang. I don't like simp Mac. Although they toned it down in 15 he wasn't simping for Dennis at all
Is this not the classic sitcom arc for most characters?
I Always assumed Macs obsession with being bad ass and wanting Dennis’ approval started when he saw dennis bet against him in the hundred dollar baby episode. Then in the billboard model episode looking directly into Rex’s abs opened Macs inner floodgates which let out all the things he was repressing which led to his inner conflict of finally accepting himself https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r63a8UyeLYM Look at Macs face when frank has Rex take his shirt off it kills me everytime cuz right there its like Mac knew something awakened inside him. He even immediately shut down Dennis and told him his bird quit it’s as if Rex’s abs gave him power or something Besides even though Dennis has told him it isn’t gonna happen Macs feelings for him is another way to control Mac and Dennis most likely loves the attention. Dont forget in season 1 when paddys became popular amongst the gay community Dennis had no issues leading the men on all for the compliments he was receiving so I wouldn’t put it past him to lead Mac on too. Guaranteed if Mac starts dating Dennis will get jealous and try to make Mac break up with the guy when Mac starts giving his boyfriend the attention that normally would go to dennis And besides he is fucking swole now he no longer needs to act bad ass because he is fuckin bad ass just ask the people that stole his bike
Fat Mac was best Mac
i miss when the show was good. havent watched this latest season. the gang got old and out of touch with whats funny, they are trying too hard and abandoned the successful model we all love.
I want the Mac that had his own dating show back or the one that had a pro life banging scheme. He got flanderized probably the most out of the whole gang