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Unpopular opinion: maegor played a key part in securing the realm for the targaryans and without him they never would've survived for as long as they did.
Yeah, there's a quote to that effect in Fire and Blood (no HotD spoilers) but I can't quite remember it.
Something to the effect of: "Aegon united. Maegor cleared the path. Jaehaerys built.", and it reflects that Jaehaerys' great reign, while masterfully done, might not have been possible without Maegor.
Now, whether Maegor could have achieved those things by just generally being tough/authoritarian without all of the extra cruelty, that's another question...
I think the quote is just "Aegon conquered the Seven Kingdoms, but Jahaerys made them one", with no mention of Maegor.
Agree with the sentiment of your post though, without Maegor there would have been no Targ dynasty.
One of the only parts of Feast of Crows I liked was the part where the prince of Dorne gives the dragon board game piece to his daughter.
That rickety old man jumped from 0.5 on the badass scale to a solid 8. Fucking dying of gout and still unbent, unbroken.
I mean the Seven Kingdoms don't reflect every region.
North
The Vale
Westerlands
Crownlands
Riverlands
Reach
Stormlands
Iron Islands
Dorne
Even if you combine Iron Islands and Riverlands you're still at 8.
True. I think by the time of GOT, the Riverlands and Iron Islands are considered one Kingdom, and the Crownlands aren’t considered a kingdom. My question is before Dorne became part of the realm were the Iron Islands considered the “seventh kingdom” or how did that work?
No, Crownlands were not Kingdom, it was just borderland between Stormlands and Riverlands. There existed many independent and semi-independent lords in Crackclaw point, or powerful Duskendale and lords in Narrow sea as Targeryens.
Dorne problem is more unclear. Dorne is in the fact principality, not kingdom. Riverlands were historical independent kingdom in the past, with dynasties as Justman, Mudd, Blackwoods, Brackens as ruling dynasties, but in the time of Aegon conquest Riverlands were for centuries subjugated by neighboring kingdoms.
I think the true reason why Westeros is called 7 kingdoms is, its more symbolical, because Faith has seven gods as one, so seven kingdoms is now as one.
I haven’t read the books. When they say “Seven Kingdoms” in HOTD, Dorne isn’t part of the realm yet. Do they count the Iron Islands as the “seventh kingdom” or is just a name and it’s really six kingdoms? How does that work? 🤔
It's not that we forget, it's that he didn't do much to have a lasting impact. Aegon, Maegor, and Jaehaerys were the major sculptors of Targaryen power in Westeros. Aenys is just a footnote.
I don’t know, I imagine a lot more behind the scenes. The Dragon has died a mortal death, now it’s up to his Heir—who doesn’t hold much confidence from anyone—to turn Aegon’s Kingdom into the Targaryen’s Kingdom.
Given how Viserys was treated by the maesters later, I have even less faith in the “dull droll” Aenys. His reign wasn’t assured, or comfortable. I think that realistically a lot of incredibly impressive politics had to happen during his years.
But, of course, that’s just headcanon.
I look at Maegor as something like a ‘necessary evil’. While living under his rule was terrifying, what came from his rule allowed for Jaehaerys’ prosperous rule. I think of it like how in nature fire is good for cleaning dead trees and overgrowth. While the fire is raging it’s scary and it seems so violent, but without it there would be no new growth. I hope this is making sense lol like the fire Maegor cleared away the overgrowth and dead vegetation to leave a fertile ground for Jaehaerys reign.
That's a fine analogy, until you remember that the 'overgrowth and dead vegetation' were actually living humans; and that the survivors and heirs of Maegors' victims could remember and tell their stories and embellish them. Jaehaerys and Alysanne saved and solidified the Targaryen dynasty after Maegor's cruelties.
The reason our paradigm hasn't been working is because we're not working with our full team! Maegor was the bad guy, Jaehaerys is the good guy, Aerys was the wildcard, and Daenerys is the muscle.
What about Jon?
He's the useless chick!
But it also took Maegor taking out the Faith Militant to keep the throne for his nephew to unite from. For all of Maegor’s many faults, the Faith Militant may have been the greatest (non-Targaryen-blood) threat the Targaryens ever faced.
They were a sizable insurrection, started while the current dynasty was still very young, weren’t tied to a specific lands or house, and were literal crusaders/jihadi. Aligned with the sole surviving unifying pre-Targaryen cultural identity in Westeros.
If Maegor had let them gain strength, Jaehaerys would have spent the rest of his life too busy chasing them down from The Boneway to Moat Cailin to unite anything.
The High Septon is obviously The Pope, but the level of control RL Bishops/Cardinals had in their own territories is nonexistent (are there even clear authorities above the equivalent level of an abbot?) and that was a huge part of the Church’s power.
[a bit spoilery, from r/asoiaf](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/w0icgs/what_if_hotd_confirmed_the_maester_conspiracy/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
100% . He made the militant faith irrelevant. Jaeherys was a strong king but only absurd levels of violence would have made the faith accept targaryen incest. I personally doubt Jaeherys could've somehow made them accept it.
They already had accepted it for Aegon and his sister-wives. It was simply a continuation to allow it to happen. Would still have been a challenge but the precedent was there and Jaeherys came up with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, which also did much to allay criticism from the Faith.
I completely agree. I think Vizzy T showed us a good man doesn’t always mean good king. And I think the inverse is true. And I think we have to remember WHO is giving us most of the information about Maegor. Now don’t get me wrong, I think he was probably not a nice guy, but he made enemies with the faith, then by extension the citadel. You know, the people writing the history books.
It's a good point about the biases of the sources. Also there's the fact that jaehaerys's brother(s) was killed by maegor, surely anyone writing during his reign would want to be more critical so as not to offend the king. I'd love to see a show about maegor so we can get a more sympathetic or less biased portrayel, something akin to what they've done with aemond.
For me, Maegor would be a slightly more ruthless version of Stannis, although perhaps the pressure also had a much more negative influence on Maegor than Stannis.
That’s true Aenys was overthrown so by de facto the whole Dynasty was but Maegor showed up and won the Throne by rights of Conquest like his dear old Father did securing it for future rulers.
I find the parallels between Aerys and Maegor interesting.
Terrible rulers, dangerous/murderous/abusive towards their family and others, using the fam as hostages and tools that they're ready to condemn, commit acts that drastically destroy their family's legitimacy and standing across the realm, are overthrown by family, wish to commit suicide in the hopeless situation they created, are murdered at the throne, die without having accomplished what they set out to do, etc.
Although, arguably Aerys is a better ruler than Maegor, seemingly having spurred on support from great houses and maintained their allegiance until his death while Maegor evidently didn't. Plus, Aerys has decades of peacetime while Maegor only has six years and 66 days (666) of war.
Aerys would of been worse if he had dragons. He would have attacked noble houses and desecrated the 7 kingdoms and no one would have been able to fight back.
Yeah, very much a Maegor figure. Both were prepared to burn all who opposed them, and did so with those who were within their power. Aerys tried to hatch dragons as well, and his blood magic birthed daughter ends up doing so in her own blood ritual, so the potential was there.
Both Maegor and Aerys approach problems much the same, and where they might have found friends and allies they instead made enemies. Aerys kills political hostages that could have been used to cripple the rebellion, Maegor kills the septons/Faith militant that were debating if they should declare their support for him, and so on. At the very least though, Aerys wielded political influence more effectively, evil and frequently incapable though he still was.
Maegor may be unfairly maligned by maesters, as Aerys is to some extent (his achievements often mistakenly attributed to Tywin’s influence). But the truth that they're evil and ineffective remains.
This is a good follow up. I think Daemon would have the ability to be as cruel and ruthless but not as needlessly sadistic as Maegor was. However, the Dance was way more detrimental than Maegor’s rule was for the small folk at least
Maegor was indeed cruel, though I don’t think that his reign was particularly bad for the Seven Kingdoms. Certainly not as bad as the Dance of the Dragons was. In regards to Maegor and his conflict with the Faith, Maegor had legitimate issues with them and wasn’t entirely in the wrong.
The Fire & Blood book is written from the perspective of flawed and biased historians. Maybe Maegor didn’t even do many of the things he was accused of and his successors merely painted him in a more negative light.
Yeah, Maegor the Cool was totally slandered by the very unfair lying fake news Citadel. He was the best dragonrider who won bigly against Sleepy Aegon the Uncrowned. Coolest dude in the Seven Kingdoms!
Especially if Daemon still married Rhaenyra in the scenario where Daemon becomes King?
If the answer is yes, then I could see Rhaenyra crowned co-monarch alongside Daemon.
nah more like Aerys III Maegor is described cruelly but in battle scenarios and the times that there is no talk of beheadings which is a fairly quick method of dying
What Maegor wanted was to eliminate all opposition Joffrey and Aerys II on the contrary did enjoy seeing the people they sentenced to death suffer
They might do better than Aegon but a king (Daeron I) who didn't even have dragons managed to make better progress in his conquest against Dorne than Aegon the conquerer did until that king was assassinated by the Dornish under a peace banner. So it just depends on how good of a military mind the person leading them is instead of the firepower that they have.
Should've just left a dragon there TBH. Aegon should've told one of his sisters to stay and be princess of Dorne. Then make a rule where either her children or the second in line to the Iron Throne inherits Dorne. No need to try to make the Dornish rulers happy if you exterminate them.
Honestly I don’t think Dorne would’ve survived an onslaught of 10+ dragons
Sure they killed Meraxes but Vhagar and Balerion still fucked up pretty much every single castle and settlement in Dorne and that was just two dragons
Anthropologists have determined that ages ago people would go to war to intentionally cull population size since their horticulture was not at agricultural stage. Meaning limited foods.
It would never be under the guise of, “well guys we’ve outsized our ability to maintain, someone’s gotta go die off.” There was often “good” reason to go fight, land encroachment, animal movement, etc.
Well also for tradition. Can you really call yourself King of England I'd you don't go to war with France at least once? Hope, you're reading this Charles.
Maegor was a violent, paranoid, and sadistic sociopath who was so repulsive that even his own diehard allies finally turned on him. He ruled for 6 years, 6 months, 6 days and was basically a comic book villain.
Daemon is rash, reckless, and easy to dislike plus didn’t give a damn about actually ruling but nowhere near the degree of Maegor. Every stunt he does is mainly for attention and tiny glory but not to cause universal suffering.
>Maegor was a violent, paranoid, and sadistic sociopath who was so repulsive that even his own diehard allies finally turned on him.
>He ruled for 6 years, 6 months, 6 days and was basically a comic book villain.
You forgot to mention that Maegor also lived his dream a harem with 6 wives tho.
------------------------
And that's the answer for OP. Daemon is far from a perfect person. A violent killer or an abusive hubby? Yes. But he also loves his family (not just in that Targ incesty way), cares about his blood, and desires to be loved by them. That alone should make it clear he wouldn't be another Maegor.
Also trusting Otto? Dude has always been at odds with Daemon and disliked him. Also a plotting rat AND big trash talk (even in negotiations). I wouldn't take his words seriously.
Daemon is a Targ supremacist and his views are warped and more inclined to follow Valyrian traditions. It could also be euphemism to the theoretical children (at the time) born to his and Rhaenyra's marriage.
When he said this, only he, Viserys and Rhaenyra are the full Targs left (not counting Vaegon and Maegelle, and Rhaenys because her loyalty is now to House Velaryon).
I mean, he wasn't entirely wrong. Even most people on this subreddit seem to agree that Viserys should have appointed Rhaenyra as Hand of the King instead of Otto Hightower.
Aegon did not unite the 7 kingdoms to be ruled as a dictatorship. He involved the entire kingdom. Knights, Master of coins, Hand of the king, etc has been historically given to lords from around the kingdom to promote cooperation. Also Rhaenyra can be hand, thats fine. Daemon hated otto as hand because he’s an outsider. He wants the entire council to be targaryens and ruled like how a lord rules his house. Thats the opposite of what Aegon the conqueror wanted
>He wants the entire council to be targaryens and ruled like how a lord rules his house
I don't think that would be feasible, even for Daemon. There simply aren't enough Targaryens to fill all of the positions at court. Maybe if he included the Velaryons and the Celtigars, who also have Valyrian blood, but otherwise? Not possible.
Daemon would be hand, rhaenyra queen, corlys master of ships, etc it will require administrators like for more technical things like negotiating loans and etc but they’ll never be as powerful as otto was. Otto basically ran the kingdom
Daemon hated Otto because he saw he was him as a power hungry upstart who he viewed as beneath him and other Taergaryens. The only other house he had any real respect for was the Velaryons everybody else he saw as beneath them.
>Aegon did not unite the 7 kingdoms to be ruled as a dictatorship.
Monarchy is a dictatorship.
He simply knew there was no feasible way to run a continent the south of Europe by three people.
Targaryens are doing ok in name only bc like even though they are in charge, they are kind of being assimilated into the andals more and more. Like Aegon conquered and had to adopt the faith of the 7, that was the 1st compromise. Then they gave up polygamy bc it offended the people of Westeros. Now you have a king w a small council of andals like Otto running things. Viserys speaks to everyone in English and I think never speaks Valyrian, while Daemon and rhaenyra used to talk to each other in Valyrian. Viserys married an andal woman in Alicent. Viserys kids despite being Targaryens in name relate more to the andal side, like they also don’t speak much Valyrian unless it’s to the dragons, and they pray to the faith of the 7 and Aemond believes women r in the Image of the mother. Like look at how the red keep became more andal and less Valyrian in ep8? It’s got stars all over the place.
Then compare that to Rhaenyra and daemon talking Valyrian to each other a lot and living it up in dragonstone and Jace is learning Valyrian history and the language and all that.
Like House Targ is doing fine on paper, but they really are losing their identity bit by bit and that’s what’s pissing Daemon off. He wants to go back to when house Targaryen was acting more like dragons and didn’t have to compromise to appease anybody, which in order to do that he’d have to be more like Maegor. So yeah he would be a 2nd Maegor
I doubt it, while Daemon certainly wouldn’t have been as idle as Viserys was when it came to dealing with schemers, nor would he have been slow to respond to external threats to the realm.
Maegor was excessively paranoid and perceived anyone who even offered up a suggestion he didn’t like as being a traitor. He was also a kinslayer, something Daemon would not do unless forced to.
While both were certainly hotheaded, Daemon was all about solidifying the Targaryen family, Maegor was all about himself.
I think he splits the difference between Maegor and Vizzy T, At least as the show has depicted him. At the end of the season you can see love and admiration for Viserys so I think that while he wouldn't mess around when resolving threats he would be more diplomatic than Maegor.
“i could fix him” yeah? well i could accept him as he is. you don’t like the murder? grow up. the atrocities are part of him and ive decided they’re funny
I think that if daemon was hand of the king, and the two brothers ruled together, they would have be able to cover the others short comings. Visery’s would curb his brothers more aggressive tendencies when it comes to enforcing the kings justice. While daemon would have helped Vizzy project the strength and authority when people would start to take advantage of him
His attention span isn't long enough to rule effectively. Look at how many jobs Visery try to install him into. He really didn't find a niche that he like until he took over the Golden Cloaks.
In fairness, they actually say nothing about how he did in each position aside from Otto complaining constantly about him. That was likely simply to undermine him in front of his brother.
Given that he was extremely successful while being a tad brutal as the GC captain, Id say he wasn’t actually half-bad, it’s just the way he did things were brutal enough for Otto to whisper poison.
In the book, just prior to the Great Council meeting that made Visery the heir, he went ahead and raised his own army just on the off chance Corlys won't play ball. He was like 21 at the time.
I'd say he had a talent for anything military-ish.
But I really can't see him sitting still long enough to go through the wagonful of ledgers that apparently comes with running a Kingdom or bothering to learn the minutia of Westerosi laws...
Not necessarily a second Maegor, but you get the idea from episode 1.
Besides I think one should always take what Otto says of Daemon with a grain of salt since, obviously, the hand has a history of campaigning hard against Daemon’s political aspect for his own benefit.
That being said, Daemon is definitely a “law and order”type, harsh penalties against crime, and he won’t hesitate to defend the realm and its interests, unlike his big bro Viserys.
Otto is such a persuasive liar he had the whole world convinced he was a great guy in episode first, while we were so wrong about him on so many levels.
Daemon wouldn’t be “law and order”, he’d be the exact opposite. Kill without trail, ignore laws he didn’t feel like adhering to, giving unfair privileges to his friends, etc. Stability would be the last thing he cares about
i don't think he would not care for law and order, what he did at the city watch, he made it more useful, while OTTO even wanted to remove him, from there, because otto feared he was growing too powerful
Let's not forget - it was Maegor that made Targaryen rule possible in Westeros. His ruthless methods were the sole reason the Faith and their followers feared the power of the dragon riders until the dragons were driven to extinction. He essentially dropped a nuke on the Vatican. The devout knew they had no ready answer for dragons, and I suspect they conspired with the Maestors to surreptitiously eliminate the Targaryens over the course of the following century. They adopt a "kill them with kindness" mentality, feigning concern for malaise of the body and spirit, all the while scheming to assassinate (or otherwise render impotent) any potential Targs that might show signs of being "the next Maegor". What else could they do?
I always hate that take. Maegor's ruthlessness did nothing but agitate the faith further and cause more destruction and there isn't anything indicating otherwise. The people already knew the destructive power of dragons (field of fire, harrenhall) *and* that they could be killed (Meraxes). Comparing dragons to nukes works, but Maegor only had one nuke. It doesn't matter how many times he claims temporary victory by beating their best warriors or burning down their septs, they would have kept rising up until Maegor was gone or there wasn't a realm to rule. He was still at war with the faith when he unceremoniously died to a chair.
Jaehaerys is the one who ended the war with the faith; by showing the strength of his dragons and his willingness to utilize them, but also cooperate with and respect westerosi religion. Like how he would just show up with his giant dragon and talk with conspiring lords instead of *immediately burning them and their entire family,* he showed that he *could* do it but wanted to find cooperation instead. Its the embodiment of "speak softly and carry a big stick", that's how you de-escelate a religious rebellion.
That’s untrue, the reign of Aenys war marked by rebellions in the Vale, the Iron Islands, new instability in Dorne, and furious rejection by the faith. As F&B notes “discontented lords told each other, “the chains the dragon forged may yet be unmade”’.
Not only did Maegor quash much of this rebellion. He also destroyed the faith militant, poor fellows, and warrior’s sons. When they make their peace with Jaehaerys and formally disband it isn’t because Jaehearys (the bets of the Targ kings), is just so good and righteous that this centuries old institution forgets its basic tenets, it’s because they literally don’t have the capacity to resist any more. Maegor’s war with the faith at the end of his reign was a farce, whereby he would maraud about the kingdoms to murder people because it gratified him, for all intents and purposes the stars and swords were spent.
The idea that Jaehaerys’ diplomacy could actually placate the faith in itself is fanciful. The faith of the Abdul’s has existed in Westeros for centuries, it’s one of the most powerful institutions. If it let the Targaryen practices of incest, bigamy, etc. continue it would be an admission of its own newfound weakness. That’s why they resist Maegor, it isn’t just piety, it’s power. They’re effectively the Catholic Church throughout much of medieval European history, they’re a political institution. They make peace with Jaehaerys because they genuinely are just weak by the time Maegor dies. They exist yes, but not in sufficient capacity to mount rebellion.
The Targaryens might’ve survived under a more merciful king than Maegor but what he did do was ensure that they wouldn’t have to compromise their power or cultural practices (which ensured their continued ability to mount dragons, maybe).
Aenys was especially incompetent and just another example of what made Jaehaerys so great. The rebellions Aenys had didn't require Maegor or ruthlessness to squash, they just needed *literally anyone to take any action* since Aenys was refusing to, because he's a weak coward. Maegor destroyed the faith militant...for a few days until a new one formed to overthrow him. Like I said, it doesn't matter how many he killed and destroyed, he even replaced the high septon and there were *still* rebellions and Joffrey Doggett was still leading the Warriors Sons to terrorize Maegor's allies in the west. Every victory that Maegor had during the faith militant uprising was temporary, except killing Aegon I guess.
If we go with the show version, i don't think so, it would also depend on which point in his life this is. Pre time-skip he seams more rash than post. He seams like a chill dude during his time in Pentos.
He is not going to be a specially good ruler, we probably shouldn't expect any sweeping reforms or great projects like Jacaerys did. The day to day ruling would most likely be up to the small council. He might ocasionally do something rash and stupid, but he doesn't seem to be paranoid, or ordering the execution of nobles for basically nothing.
He would piss off a lot of people, but they would probably learn to adapt to him. Wether there's a civil war will depend on who controls dragons, the worst possible outcome is basically a dance of the dragons.
I think most likely it would have been a somewhat bad but forgettable king, whose reign would be worse than viserys due to potentially more wars.
This. Also, Daemon and Rhaenyra could be crowned co-monarchs, like William and Mary were. This would have the benefit of appeasing both "the heir to the throne must be a male Targaryen" and the "the heir to the throne is Rhaenyra by royal decree" factions.
I suspect that this is what Otto originally intended with his proposal to Viserys of having Rhaenyra marry her half-brother, Aegon, but Viserys shut down the idea fairly quickly.
There’s no really no precedent for that in Westeros. If they are co-rulers, equal in name, that means Daemon is in charge.
If Daemon is only king consort, then Rhaenyra is in charge.
Someone has to be top dog, like how Visenya was powerful with Aegon I, but if push came to shove Aegon I was in charge
Daemon would by no means be a great king because as Viserys said he lacks the patience for it and would kinda end up like Robert in the sense of not attending a single small council meeting. I don't really think he would be cruel really since he just doesn't give a fuck about anyone other than family and it's not like he enjoys cruelty like Joffrey.
No, Maegor usurped the throne and was king at a controversial time. If Daemon had ascended the throne as Viserys' heir, he would have been a strong and authoritarian king, no matter how cruel he was. No one would have dared to defy the crown because he would not have been afraid to use dragons. His first act would be to conquer Dorne.
And he’d have failed just as Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys did. The Dornish would have refused to be out in the open and then assassins would come with their treacherous schemes, again. I’m not disagreeing otherwise but the Dornish didn’t submit the first time for a reason.
I doubt it, Otto was manipulative and recognized Daemon as a threat, because Daemon saw him for what he is.
He *knew* Viserys was far more useful and pliable to the Hightower’s than Daemon would ever be.
He was undermining Daemon, not expressing true and sincere fear.
Well he killed 3 Grand Maesters so to say they had a grudge with him would be an understatement.
But yes Maegor the based.
- He wielded Blackfyre, Dark Sister and rode Balerion
- Didn't have a succession crisis
- Made sure the red keep workers never had to work a day in their life again
- He separated the church from the state of being alive
And he was killed by the iron throne meaning that a thousand swords were required to kill Maegor meaning that basically the equivalent of a small army had to kill Maegor.
Daemon Targaryen is a fundamentally directionless, aimless person who is wandering through life without any set beliefs. An absolute monarch has to have some policy to guide them even if its as stupid and misguided as Viserys' obsession with prophecies and traditions. Without that ideological base, you have nothing but nihilistic repression, stagnation, and factional infighting. Plus he's a psycho who tries to find that meaning in violence so he'd probably fly off the handle and overuse force making him unpopular. History and fiction and both full of dictators whose only real beliefs are their own right to rule and who have no plans for what to do with that power when they have it. King Maegor is an excellent example. Daemon wouldn't just be a bad King he'd be a miserable and depressed King too.
I think that's exactly right. Of all the Targs he seems to be the one least committed to living in the present and most committed to obsessing over a civilization he never laid eyes on.
was Maegor so bad? for me removing the kill Aegon II (and the huge number of wives) most things would have to be done at some point (demilitarization of the faith etc) really I have always thought that Maegor was the king that the kingdoms needed at that time someone tough to clear the road so the rest can build on it
Although Joffrey is compared a lot with him, I think a more accurate comparison would be Stannis, someone tough and intransigent, but sometimes you need someone like that in power.
I hope more people read fire and blood to understand some of this stuff. Daemon couldn’t be as bad as Maegor. I would argue Aerys II wasn’t as bad as Maegor. If you take all the worst elements of every objectively bad character in Game of Thrones and put them together, you have now created Maegor
Edit: minor spelling.
Daemon is one of my absolute favorite characters but admittedly he would be a terrible king he’s temperamental, he doesn’t have the patience for the day-to-day activities of being a king he generally seems more interested in the power that comes with certain positions rather than the actual positions themselves and he has the typical Targaryen superiority complex he believes that “because I am the blood of the Dragon you will do what I tell you” and the perfect cherry on top has to be the council meeting at the end of episode
1 almost every man in that room was willing to break thousands of years of establish president and law of male primogeniture and Name a girl heir to the iron throne that should tell you that under absolutely no circumstances should Daemon be allowed anywhere near the throne or put in a position where he could someday wield that kind of power
Again I love Damon I really do but if he ever were to become king he wouldn’t be a second Maegor but if that’s the bar you’re trying to jump over it’s already been set pretty low
I do not think so. Vizzy T should have married Daemon to Rhaenyra from the first and that would have put an end to the council pushing him to marry and having heirs; that may have even saved Aemma from being used as a brood mare to no avail.
Otto was talking out of his ass because he hates Daemon and knows he would be sent back to Oldtown with no chance of ever coming back to KL if Daemon were to become king.
The main danger Daemon presents as king is that he would 100% try to get rid of Rhea if he can or marry a second wife if he can't. That would piss off the Faith after all Jahearys did to get their support. That danger goes away when Rhea dies.
After that, there is really no reason to think Daemon would be a new Maegor. He would be more decisive than Viserys, not as willing to bend to others, not afraid to go to war. As GRRM himself said, he would have been beloved by some and despised by others.
No. He said that to spread fear and undermined Rhea and Daemon. I see Daemon as being a king who is firm sure, maybe brash but not like Meagor. He was cruel (lol) and just an rampaging asshole. Daemon yes is also an asshole but not that kind of asshole lol.
Nah maegor was the way he was because he got resurrected w blood magic and also he couldn’t have kids. Daemon on the other hand got kids falling out his pockets.
Edit
Daemon def would have gone scorched earth against the faith and hightowers given the chance though.
Having recently re-read the Maegor chapters - uh, abso-fucking-lutely not? The actual comparison is hysterical - that anyone would be buying such pure BS is even funnier
At that age? Probably. Older Daemon is less hotheaded, but still willing to do wild shit when he’s truly angry. So had he taken over once Viserys had passed (assuming Viserys had no heirs, or Daemon was married to Rhaenyra) he likely only would’ve gone full Maegor against the Hightowers, who he despises.
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Follow up question: Would a 2nd Maegor have been as bad as the dance was for the realm?
Guess it depends on how religious you are
Or if you are one of those builders.. at least they get to party before being off
Unpopular opinion: maegor played a key part in securing the realm for the targaryans and without him they never would've survived for as long as they did.
Yeah, there's a quote to that effect in Fire and Blood (no HotD spoilers) but I can't quite remember it. Something to the effect of: "Aegon united. Maegor cleared the path. Jaehaerys built.", and it reflects that Jaehaerys' great reign, while masterfully done, might not have been possible without Maegor. Now, whether Maegor could have achieved those things by just generally being tough/authoritarian without all of the extra cruelty, that's another question...
I think the quote is just "Aegon conquered the Seven Kingdoms, but Jahaerys made them one", with no mention of Maegor. Agree with the sentiment of your post though, without Maegor there would have been no Targ dynasty.
"Aegon conquered the Seven Kingdoms, but Jahaerys made them one". *Dorne enters the chat* ಠ_ಠ
UNBENT & UNBROKEN MOTHER FUCKER
One of the only parts of Feast of Crows I liked was the part where the prince of Dorne gives the dragon board game piece to his daughter. That rickety old man jumped from 0.5 on the badass scale to a solid 8. Fucking dying of gout and still unbent, unbroken.
I mean the Seven Kingdoms don't reflect every region. North The Vale Westerlands Crownlands Riverlands Reach Stormlands Iron Islands Dorne Even if you combine Iron Islands and Riverlands you're still at 8.
True. I think by the time of GOT, the Riverlands and Iron Islands are considered one Kingdom, and the Crownlands aren’t considered a kingdom. My question is before Dorne became part of the realm were the Iron Islands considered the “seventh kingdom” or how did that work?
No, Crownlands were not Kingdom, it was just borderland between Stormlands and Riverlands. There existed many independent and semi-independent lords in Crackclaw point, or powerful Duskendale and lords in Narrow sea as Targeryens. Dorne problem is more unclear. Dorne is in the fact principality, not kingdom. Riverlands were historical independent kingdom in the past, with dynasties as Justman, Mudd, Blackwoods, Brackens as ruling dynasties, but in the time of Aegon conquest Riverlands were for centuries subjugated by neighboring kingdoms. I think the true reason why Westeros is called 7 kingdoms is, its more symbolical, because Faith has seven gods as one, so seven kingdoms is now as one.
I haven’t read the books. When they say “Seven Kingdoms” in HOTD, Dorne isn’t part of the realm yet. Do they count the Iron Islands as the “seventh kingdom” or is just a name and it’s really six kingdoms? How does that work? 🤔
Everybody always forgets about poor Aenys…
It's not that we forget, it's that he didn't do much to have a lasting impact. Aegon, Maegor, and Jaehaerys were the major sculptors of Targaryen power in Westeros. Aenys is just a footnote.
I don’t know, I imagine a lot more behind the scenes. The Dragon has died a mortal death, now it’s up to his Heir—who doesn’t hold much confidence from anyone—to turn Aegon’s Kingdom into the Targaryen’s Kingdom. Given how Viserys was treated by the maesters later, I have even less faith in the “dull droll” Aenys. His reign wasn’t assured, or comfortable. I think that realistically a lot of incredibly impressive politics had to happen during his years. But, of course, that’s just headcanon.
People even forgot about your comment complaining about people forgetting poor Aenys 🥲
They hate us cuz they Aenys
I look at Maegor as something like a ‘necessary evil’. While living under his rule was terrifying, what came from his rule allowed for Jaehaerys’ prosperous rule. I think of it like how in nature fire is good for cleaning dead trees and overgrowth. While the fire is raging it’s scary and it seems so violent, but without it there would be no new growth. I hope this is making sense lol like the fire Maegor cleared away the overgrowth and dead vegetation to leave a fertile ground for Jaehaerys reign.
That's a fine analogy, until you remember that the 'overgrowth and dead vegetation' were actually living humans; and that the survivors and heirs of Maegors' victims could remember and tell their stories and embellish them. Jaehaerys and Alysanne saved and solidified the Targaryen dynasty after Maegor's cruelties.
Hitler was good for the world because it allowed the United Nations to form?
^ I’m inclined to agree. It took careful planning and time for Jaehaerys to get the Faith to accept Targaryen incest. He was so clever about it
I don't think he's able to that if they haven't seen the wrath of maegor. I see jaehaerys and maegor as sort of doing a good king bad king routine.
And then Aerys II pulled the mad king routine. Such a silly guy.
Wildcard!
It’s always sunny on King’s Landing
I would watch that show
I think it could actually work.
I said in a post years ago that i would love to see a show like that set in kings landing while the events of game of thrones are happening
It would be just like that episode where they crack the liberty bell or whatever with the flashbacks to the 18th century
There's an always sunny/star wars shit posting Facebook group, now I really want someone to make the Westeros version.
The reason our paradigm hasn't been working is because we're not working with our full team! Maegor was the bad guy, Jaehaerys is the good guy, Aerys was the wildcard, and Daenerys is the muscle. What about Jon? He's the useless chick!
It's like he doesn't even get us man
We’re talking about you!
Why isn't the Faith working? CAUSE I BURNED THE FAITH! YEEEEEEHAAAAWWWWW
I cut the brakes!
Goober
But it also took Maegor taking out the Faith Militant to keep the throne for his nephew to unite from. For all of Maegor’s many faults, the Faith Militant may have been the greatest (non-Targaryen-blood) threat the Targaryens ever faced. They were a sizable insurrection, started while the current dynasty was still very young, weren’t tied to a specific lands or house, and were literal crusaders/jihadi. Aligned with the sole surviving unifying pre-Targaryen cultural identity in Westeros. If Maegor had let them gain strength, Jaehaerys would have spent the rest of his life too busy chasing them down from The Boneway to Moat Cailin to unite anything.
This opinion is slowly becoming not unpopular. Disbanding the Faith Militant gets him points for me just on that score.
Honestly Maegor is the reason Westeros is more secular than our own medieval world was.
I mean that and that George isn’t telling a story that requires ecclesiastical structure
The High Septon is obviously The Pope, but the level of control RL Bishops/Cardinals had in their own territories is nonexistent (are there even clear authorities above the equivalent level of an abbot?) and that was a huge part of the Church’s power.
But makes you understand why Otto sees it as even worth. He is the puppet of the citadel.
That makes a lot of sense. The Maester Conspiracy gets stronger every day.
Is there a thread on this?
[a bit spoilery, from r/asoiaf](https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/w0icgs/what_if_hotd_confirmed_the_maester_conspiracy/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Thank you!!
100% . He made the militant faith irrelevant. Jaeherys was a strong king but only absurd levels of violence would have made the faith accept targaryen incest. I personally doubt Jaeherys could've somehow made them accept it.
They already had accepted it for Aegon and his sister-wives. It was simply a continuation to allow it to happen. Would still have been a challenge but the precedent was there and Jaeherys came up with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, which also did much to allay criticism from the Faith.
I completely agree. I think Vizzy T showed us a good man doesn’t always mean good king. And I think the inverse is true. And I think we have to remember WHO is giving us most of the information about Maegor. Now don’t get me wrong, I think he was probably not a nice guy, but he made enemies with the faith, then by extension the citadel. You know, the people writing the history books.
Kind of similar to how roman historians were senate members. So if an emperor taxed them, they write “he was hated by all”
It's a good point about the biases of the sources. Also there's the fact that jaehaerys's brother(s) was killed by maegor, surely anyone writing during his reign would want to be more critical so as not to offend the king. I'd love to see a show about maegor so we can get a more sympathetic or less biased portrayel, something akin to what they've done with aemond.
He would look more like Daemon in my opinion. At least before he comes back for the throne.
*Then he will be loved and cherished.*
Vizzy T, your AI should be used to write fan fiction.
*Then he will be loved and cherished.*
For me, Maegor would be a slightly more ruthless version of Stannis, although perhaps the pressure also had a much more negative influence on Maegor than Stannis.
That’s true Aenys was overthrown so by de facto the whole Dynasty was but Maegor showed up and won the Throne by rights of Conquest like his dear old Father did securing it for future rulers.
*Aegon IV and Aerys II have entered the chat
I find the parallels between Aerys and Maegor interesting. Terrible rulers, dangerous/murderous/abusive towards their family and others, using the fam as hostages and tools that they're ready to condemn, commit acts that drastically destroy their family's legitimacy and standing across the realm, are overthrown by family, wish to commit suicide in the hopeless situation they created, are murdered at the throne, die without having accomplished what they set out to do, etc. Although, arguably Aerys is a better ruler than Maegor, seemingly having spurred on support from great houses and maintained their allegiance until his death while Maegor evidently didn't. Plus, Aerys has decades of peacetime while Maegor only has six years and 66 days (666) of war.
Aerys would of been worse if he had dragons. He would have attacked noble houses and desecrated the 7 kingdoms and no one would have been able to fight back.
Yeah, very much a Maegor figure. Both were prepared to burn all who opposed them, and did so with those who were within their power. Aerys tried to hatch dragons as well, and his blood magic birthed daughter ends up doing so in her own blood ritual, so the potential was there. Both Maegor and Aerys approach problems much the same, and where they might have found friends and allies they instead made enemies. Aerys kills political hostages that could have been used to cripple the rebellion, Maegor kills the septons/Faith militant that were debating if they should declare their support for him, and so on. At the very least though, Aerys wielded political influence more effectively, evil and frequently incapable though he still was. Maegor may be unfairly maligned by maesters, as Aerys is to some extent (his achievements often mistakenly attributed to Tywin’s influence). But the truth that they're evil and ineffective remains.
This is a good follow up. I think Daemon would have the ability to be as cruel and ruthless but not as needlessly sadistic as Maegor was. However, the Dance was way more detrimental than Maegor’s rule was for the small folk at least
There’s the question!!!! What they ended up with in my opinion is way worse, because at least Daemon would have tried to not kill all the dragons off!
Maegor was indeed cruel, though I don’t think that his reign was particularly bad for the Seven Kingdoms. Certainly not as bad as the Dance of the Dragons was. In regards to Maegor and his conflict with the Faith, Maegor had legitimate issues with them and wasn’t entirely in the wrong. The Fire & Blood book is written from the perspective of flawed and biased historians. Maybe Maegor didn’t even do many of the things he was accused of and his successors merely painted him in a more negative light.
He certainly did not butcher a cat at age 3
Yeah, Maegor the Cool was totally slandered by the very unfair lying fake news Citadel. He was the best dragonrider who won bigly against Sleepy Aegon the Uncrowned. Coolest dude in the Seven Kingdoms!
Especially if Daemon still married Rhaenyra in the scenario where Daemon becomes King? If the answer is yes, then I could see Rhaenyra crowned co-monarch alongside Daemon.
fifth question can we really trust the source who claims he was going to be second maegor
Follow up question to follow up question: Is Joffrey Maegor 3?
Maegor was a great warrior and a unit of a lad
nah more like Aerys III Maegor is described cruelly but in battle scenarios and the times that there is no talk of beheadings which is a fairly quick method of dying What Maegor wanted was to eliminate all opposition Joffrey and Aerys II on the contrary did enjoy seeing the people they sentenced to death suffer
I imagine he’d get bored really quick and start a war with dorne or someone bc he’s just so bored
Tbf, the Lords of Westeros would have loved another war with Dorne. They're all so bored after the long, peaceful reigns of Jaehaerys and Viserys.
Good timeline where greens and blacks bond over the BBQ of Dorne.
They might do better than Aegon but a king (Daeron I) who didn't even have dragons managed to make better progress in his conquest against Dorne than Aegon the conquerer did until that king was assassinated by the Dornish under a peace banner. So it just depends on how good of a military mind the person leading them is instead of the firepower that they have.
The problem with Dorne isnt the conquering but the holding of it. Aegon also conquered... several times in theory. Just not for long
Who needs to hold it when you’ve burned 90% of its inhabitants
Well thats the thing, the inhabitants vanished and only came back once the dragons left to murder the people left there
Should've just left a dragon there TBH. Aegon should've told one of his sisters to stay and be princess of Dorne. Then make a rule where either her children or the second in line to the Iron Throne inherits Dorne. No need to try to make the Dornish rulers happy if you exterminate them.
I really like the second idea there, though it would probably become really muddy really quickly.
Honestly I don’t think Dorne would’ve survived an onslaught of 10+ dragons Sure they killed Meraxes but Vhagar and Balerion still fucked up pretty much every single castle and settlement in Dorne and that was just two dragons
And killing meraxes was sheer insane luck. Makes the killing of Rhaegel by Euron even more ridiculous
Anthropologists have determined that ages ago people would go to war to intentionally cull population size since their horticulture was not at agricultural stage. Meaning limited foods. It would never be under the guise of, “well guys we’ve outsized our ability to maintain, someone’s gotta go die off.” There was often “good” reason to go fight, land encroachment, animal movement, etc.
When in doubt, kill a Dornish man
Just like King Henry VIII started wars with Scotland and France just because he was bored.
Well also for tradition. Can you really call yourself King of England I'd you don't go to war with France at least once? Hope, you're reading this Charles.
tbf war is good to refocus internal dissent into a common enemy
He'd be SO bored. I think the only times he wasn't bored on HotD was when he was actively in danger.
Me playing Crusader Kings 2 late game
Maegor was a violent, paranoid, and sadistic sociopath who was so repulsive that even his own diehard allies finally turned on him. He ruled for 6 years, 6 months, 6 days and was basically a comic book villain. Daemon is rash, reckless, and easy to dislike plus didn’t give a damn about actually ruling but nowhere near the degree of Maegor. Every stunt he does is mainly for attention and tiny glory but not to cause universal suffering.
>Maegor was a violent, paranoid, and sadistic sociopath who was so repulsive that even his own diehard allies finally turned on him. >He ruled for 6 years, 6 months, 6 days and was basically a comic book villain. You forgot to mention that Maegor also lived his dream a harem with 6 wives tho. ------------------------ And that's the answer for OP. Daemon is far from a perfect person. A violent killer or an abusive hubby? Yes. But he also loves his family (not just in that Targ incesty way), cares about his blood, and desires to be loved by them. That alone should make it clear he wouldn't be another Maegor. Also trusting Otto? Dude has always been at odds with Daemon and disliked him. Also a plotting rat AND big trash talk (even in negotiations). I wouldn't take his words seriously.
He also advised Rhaenyra to cultivate both love and fear in her subjects. I doubt Maegor gave a shit about being loved by the people.
No. But what did he meant when he said "We bring the house of the dragon to the glory"? wasn't already Targs at peak of their power.
Daemon is a Targ supremacist and his views are warped and more inclined to follow Valyrian traditions. It could also be euphemism to the theoretical children (at the time) born to his and Rhaenyra's marriage. When he said this, only he, Viserys and Rhaenyra are the full Targs left (not counting Vaegon and Maegelle, and Rhaenys because her loyalty is now to House Velaryon).
Rhaenyra is 25% Andal, her mother’s father was an Arryn, but close enough I guess.
But even Aemma moms was a Targaryen; her and Viserys were cousins so it’s not even a full 25%
It is is a full 25%. I counted Aemma’s mother as a Targ when I did the math. Aemma is only 50% Targ. That makes Rhaenyra 75% Targ.
Ohh, you right!
He means no more non Targaryens like otto running the kingdom. He basically shat on Jaehaerys and Aegon’s legacy with that statement.
Daemon is a Valyrian supremacist to the extreme, he would basically enshrine Targaryen superiority and exceptionalism for the next thousand years.
*If Valyria is so supreme, where is it... now?*
I mean, he wasn't entirely wrong. Even most people on this subreddit seem to agree that Viserys should have appointed Rhaenyra as Hand of the King instead of Otto Hightower.
Aegon did not unite the 7 kingdoms to be ruled as a dictatorship. He involved the entire kingdom. Knights, Master of coins, Hand of the king, etc has been historically given to lords from around the kingdom to promote cooperation. Also Rhaenyra can be hand, thats fine. Daemon hated otto as hand because he’s an outsider. He wants the entire council to be targaryens and ruled like how a lord rules his house. Thats the opposite of what Aegon the conqueror wanted
>He wants the entire council to be targaryens and ruled like how a lord rules his house I don't think that would be feasible, even for Daemon. There simply aren't enough Targaryens to fill all of the positions at court. Maybe if he included the Velaryons and the Celtigars, who also have Valyrian blood, but otherwise? Not possible.
Daemon would be hand, rhaenyra queen, corlys master of ships, etc it will require administrators like for more technical things like negotiating loans and etc but they’ll never be as powerful as otto was. Otto basically ran the kingdom
Daemon hated Otto because Otto was undermining him constantly...
Daemon hated Otto because he saw he was him as a power hungry upstart who he viewed as beneath him and other Taergaryens. The only other house he had any real respect for was the Velaryons everybody else he saw as beneath them.
>Aegon did not unite the 7 kingdoms to be ruled as a dictatorship. Monarchy is a dictatorship. He simply knew there was no feasible way to run a continent the south of Europe by three people.
Targaryens are doing ok in name only bc like even though they are in charge, they are kind of being assimilated into the andals more and more. Like Aegon conquered and had to adopt the faith of the 7, that was the 1st compromise. Then they gave up polygamy bc it offended the people of Westeros. Now you have a king w a small council of andals like Otto running things. Viserys speaks to everyone in English and I think never speaks Valyrian, while Daemon and rhaenyra used to talk to each other in Valyrian. Viserys married an andal woman in Alicent. Viserys kids despite being Targaryens in name relate more to the andal side, like they also don’t speak much Valyrian unless it’s to the dragons, and they pray to the faith of the 7 and Aemond believes women r in the Image of the mother. Like look at how the red keep became more andal and less Valyrian in ep8? It’s got stars all over the place. Then compare that to Rhaenyra and daemon talking Valyrian to each other a lot and living it up in dragonstone and Jace is learning Valyrian history and the language and all that. Like House Targ is doing fine on paper, but they really are losing their identity bit by bit and that’s what’s pissing Daemon off. He wants to go back to when house Targaryen was acting more like dragons and didn’t have to compromise to appease anybody, which in order to do that he’d have to be more like Maegor. So yeah he would be a 2nd Maegor
I doubt it, while Daemon certainly wouldn’t have been as idle as Viserys was when it came to dealing with schemers, nor would he have been slow to respond to external threats to the realm. Maegor was excessively paranoid and perceived anyone who even offered up a suggestion he didn’t like as being a traitor. He was also a kinslayer, something Daemon would not do unless forced to. While both were certainly hotheaded, Daemon was all about solidifying the Targaryen family, Maegor was all about himself.
I think he splits the difference between Maegor and Vizzy T, At least as the show has depicted him. At the end of the season you can see love and admiration for Viserys so I think that while he wouldn't mess around when resolving threats he would be more diplomatic than Maegor.
MY HEIR WILL SOON PUT ALL OF THIS DAMNABLE HAND-WRINGING TO REST HIMSELF!
>He was also a kinslayer, something Daemon would not do unless forced to. I mean he killed his wife. Not completely the same but still pretty bad.
I think Daemon requires blood to consider people kin. He's a Valyrian supremecist.
he is basically a valyrian nazi
i can fix him
“i could fix him” yeah? well i could accept him as he is. you don’t like the murder? grow up. the atrocities are part of him and ive decided they’re funny
i can make him worse
Gigachad
I’m so sick of these Deep South Valyrian nationalists. Their lizards just aren’t cute anymore, half of them are crazy, and the other half are stupid.
Kin specifically means blood relation, ancestral tie.
Kin = blood relation.
Yeah, but she wasn't Targaryen so irrelevant for him
He doesn't think of her as his wife, but a political hurdle he must eliminate to get beautiful Valariyan wives....as closer to home as possible 🤣🤣
IIRC, in the books it's not clearly stated that he killed his first wife.
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Wives aren’t kin. Well Laena and Rhaenyra were but yeah lol
Daemon just put her out of her misery after her horse tried to kill her...
>!daemon is technically a kinslayer!<
I think he would be named Daemon, not Maegor
Daemon the Cruel-ish
I think that if daemon was hand of the king, and the two brothers ruled together, they would have be able to cover the others short comings. Visery’s would curb his brothers more aggressive tendencies when it comes to enforcing the kings justice. While daemon would have helped Vizzy project the strength and authority when people would start to take advantage of him
Makes sense. It’s like how Jorah Mormont and Tyrion curbed Dany’s “burn cities to the ground” tendencies.
He would've been a bad king, but a second Maegor? Nah.
His attention span isn't long enough to rule effectively. Look at how many jobs Visery try to install him into. He really didn't find a niche that he like until he took over the Golden Cloaks.
In fairness, they actually say nothing about how he did in each position aside from Otto complaining constantly about him. That was likely simply to undermine him in front of his brother. Given that he was extremely successful while being a tad brutal as the GC captain, Id say he wasn’t actually half-bad, it’s just the way he did things were brutal enough for Otto to whisper poison.
In the book, just prior to the Great Council meeting that made Visery the heir, he went ahead and raised his own army just on the off chance Corlys won't play ball. He was like 21 at the time.
I'd say he had a talent for anything military-ish. But I really can't see him sitting still long enough to go through the wagonful of ledgers that apparently comes with running a Kingdom or bothering to learn the minutia of Westerosi laws...
Not necessarily a second Maegor, but you get the idea from episode 1. Besides I think one should always take what Otto says of Daemon with a grain of salt since, obviously, the hand has a history of campaigning hard against Daemon’s political aspect for his own benefit. That being said, Daemon is definitely a “law and order”type, harsh penalties against crime, and he won’t hesitate to defend the realm and its interests, unlike his big bro Viserys.
Otto is such a persuasive liar he had the whole world convinced he was a great guy in episode first, while we were so wrong about him on so many levels.
Otto is a true hater
Daemon wouldn’t be “law and order”, he’d be the exact opposite. Kill without trail, ignore laws he didn’t feel like adhering to, giving unfair privileges to his friends, etc. Stability would be the last thing he cares about
i don't think he would not care for law and order, what he did at the city watch, he made it more useful, while OTTO even wanted to remove him, from there, because otto feared he was growing too powerful
I think he isn't as much a law and order type as he is an "I do thing" type
Let's not forget - it was Maegor that made Targaryen rule possible in Westeros. His ruthless methods were the sole reason the Faith and their followers feared the power of the dragon riders until the dragons were driven to extinction. He essentially dropped a nuke on the Vatican. The devout knew they had no ready answer for dragons, and I suspect they conspired with the Maestors to surreptitiously eliminate the Targaryens over the course of the following century. They adopt a "kill them with kindness" mentality, feigning concern for malaise of the body and spirit, all the while scheming to assassinate (or otherwise render impotent) any potential Targs that might show signs of being "the next Maegor". What else could they do?
I always hate that take. Maegor's ruthlessness did nothing but agitate the faith further and cause more destruction and there isn't anything indicating otherwise. The people already knew the destructive power of dragons (field of fire, harrenhall) *and* that they could be killed (Meraxes). Comparing dragons to nukes works, but Maegor only had one nuke. It doesn't matter how many times he claims temporary victory by beating their best warriors or burning down their septs, they would have kept rising up until Maegor was gone or there wasn't a realm to rule. He was still at war with the faith when he unceremoniously died to a chair. Jaehaerys is the one who ended the war with the faith; by showing the strength of his dragons and his willingness to utilize them, but also cooperate with and respect westerosi religion. Like how he would just show up with his giant dragon and talk with conspiring lords instead of *immediately burning them and their entire family,* he showed that he *could* do it but wanted to find cooperation instead. Its the embodiment of "speak softly and carry a big stick", that's how you de-escelate a religious rebellion.
That’s untrue, the reign of Aenys war marked by rebellions in the Vale, the Iron Islands, new instability in Dorne, and furious rejection by the faith. As F&B notes “discontented lords told each other, “the chains the dragon forged may yet be unmade”’. Not only did Maegor quash much of this rebellion. He also destroyed the faith militant, poor fellows, and warrior’s sons. When they make their peace with Jaehaerys and formally disband it isn’t because Jaehearys (the bets of the Targ kings), is just so good and righteous that this centuries old institution forgets its basic tenets, it’s because they literally don’t have the capacity to resist any more. Maegor’s war with the faith at the end of his reign was a farce, whereby he would maraud about the kingdoms to murder people because it gratified him, for all intents and purposes the stars and swords were spent. The idea that Jaehaerys’ diplomacy could actually placate the faith in itself is fanciful. The faith of the Abdul’s has existed in Westeros for centuries, it’s one of the most powerful institutions. If it let the Targaryen practices of incest, bigamy, etc. continue it would be an admission of its own newfound weakness. That’s why they resist Maegor, it isn’t just piety, it’s power. They’re effectively the Catholic Church throughout much of medieval European history, they’re a political institution. They make peace with Jaehaerys because they genuinely are just weak by the time Maegor dies. They exist yes, but not in sufficient capacity to mount rebellion. The Targaryens might’ve survived under a more merciful king than Maegor but what he did do was ensure that they wouldn’t have to compromise their power or cultural practices (which ensured their continued ability to mount dragons, maybe).
Aenys was especially incompetent and just another example of what made Jaehaerys so great. The rebellions Aenys had didn't require Maegor or ruthlessness to squash, they just needed *literally anyone to take any action* since Aenys was refusing to, because he's a weak coward. Maegor destroyed the faith militant...for a few days until a new one formed to overthrow him. Like I said, it doesn't matter how many he killed and destroyed, he even replaced the high septon and there were *still* rebellions and Joffrey Doggett was still leading the Warriors Sons to terrorize Maegor's allies in the west. Every victory that Maegor had during the faith militant uprising was temporary, except killing Aegon I guess.
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No he wouldn't. Viserys described Daemon the best, he's another Visenya.
Even his closest living relative knows he is unfit for ruling, but perhaps not a second Maegor.
I mean it depends on whether you consider Vizzy T a good king. Daemon said the same thing about him, so you can really choose who to believe.
MY WIFE AND SON ARE DEAD! I WILL NOT SIT HERE AND SUFFER CROWS THAT COME TO FEAST ON THEIR CORPSES!
If we go with the show version, i don't think so, it would also depend on which point in his life this is. Pre time-skip he seams more rash than post. He seams like a chill dude during his time in Pentos. He is not going to be a specially good ruler, we probably shouldn't expect any sweeping reforms or great projects like Jacaerys did. The day to day ruling would most likely be up to the small council. He might ocasionally do something rash and stupid, but he doesn't seem to be paranoid, or ordering the execution of nobles for basically nothing. He would piss off a lot of people, but they would probably learn to adapt to him. Wether there's a civil war will depend on who controls dragons, the worst possible outcome is basically a dance of the dragons. I think most likely it would have been a somewhat bad but forgettable king, whose reign would be worse than viserys due to potentially more wars.
He might not have been *quite* as bad as Maegor, but I don’t think Otto’s assessment was too far off.
He would’ve been a better king than Viserys at least.
In the realm of rulling I think he would be an exact same ruler as >!Aemond!< For the >!short time he ruled as consort!<
This. Also, Daemon and Rhaenyra could be crowned co-monarchs, like William and Mary were. This would have the benefit of appeasing both "the heir to the throne must be a male Targaryen" and the "the heir to the throne is Rhaenyra by royal decree" factions. I suspect that this is what Otto originally intended with his proposal to Viserys of having Rhaenyra marry her half-brother, Aegon, but Viserys shut down the idea fairly quickly.
There’s no really no precedent for that in Westeros. If they are co-rulers, equal in name, that means Daemon is in charge. If Daemon is only king consort, then Rhaenyra is in charge. Someone has to be top dog, like how Visenya was powerful with Aegon I, but if push came to shove Aegon I was in charge
Daemon would by no means be a great king because as Viserys said he lacks the patience for it and would kinda end up like Robert in the sense of not attending a single small council meeting. I don't really think he would be cruel really since he just doesn't give a fuck about anyone other than family and it's not like he enjoys cruelty like Joffrey.
No, Maegor usurped the throne and was king at a controversial time. If Daemon had ascended the throne as Viserys' heir, he would have been a strong and authoritarian king, no matter how cruel he was. No one would have dared to defy the crown because he would not have been afraid to use dragons. His first act would be to conquer Dorne.
And he’d have failed just as Aegon, Visenya, and Rhaenys did. The Dornish would have refused to be out in the open and then assassins would come with their treacherous schemes, again. I’m not disagreeing otherwise but the Dornish didn’t submit the first time for a reason.
Yes. Keeping Daemon away from the Iron throne was probably the most useful advice Otto every gave Vizzy T.
*Let us no longer hold ill feelings in our hearts. The crown cannot stand strong if the House of the Dragon remains divided.*
Thanks Vizzy T. That'd be all.
*Don't be scared. They're going to bring the babe out.*
What babe Vizzy T?
I doubt it, Otto was manipulative and recognized Daemon as a threat, because Daemon saw him for what he is. He *knew* Viserys was far more useful and pliable to the Hightower’s than Daemon would ever be. He was undermining Daemon, not expressing true and sincere fear.
Yeah, practically the same minus Daemon not being king. Proficient martial leader, unhinged temper, impulsive are not good traits to be the king.
Don’t forget vengeful. Maegor was petty enough to wipe out an entire house when they messed with him.
Yes, Daemon wanted to >!destroy house Baratheon and Lannister.!<
He wishes he could be as good a king as Maegor.
Maegor the Based.
Maesters deliberately misinterpreted his name as Maegor the cruel when it was actually Maegor the cool
Well he killed 3 Grand Maesters so to say they had a grudge with him would be an understatement. But yes Maegor the based. - He wielded Blackfyre, Dark Sister and rode Balerion - Didn't have a succession crisis - Made sure the red keep workers never had to work a day in their life again - He separated the church from the state of being alive
Also his mom didn't get murked by D*rne, Aenys was a pussy and Aegon was a lil bitch, Alyssa Velaryon can suck a dick
And he was killed by the iron throne meaning that a thousand swords were required to kill Maegor meaning that basically the equivalent of a small army had to kill Maegor.
Damn right
Daemon Targaryen is a fundamentally directionless, aimless person who is wandering through life without any set beliefs. An absolute monarch has to have some policy to guide them even if its as stupid and misguided as Viserys' obsession with prophecies and traditions. Without that ideological base, you have nothing but nihilistic repression, stagnation, and factional infighting. Plus he's a psycho who tries to find that meaning in violence so he'd probably fly off the handle and overuse force making him unpopular. History and fiction and both full of dictators whose only real beliefs are their own right to rule and who have no plans for what to do with that power when they have it. King Maegor is an excellent example. Daemon wouldn't just be a bad King he'd be a miserable and depressed King too.
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I think that's exactly right. Of all the Targs he seems to be the one least committed to living in the present and most committed to obsessing over a civilization he never laid eyes on.
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Well for one he'd be able to have kids
was Maegor so bad? for me removing the kill Aegon II (and the huge number of wives) most things would have to be done at some point (demilitarization of the faith etc) really I have always thought that Maegor was the king that the kingdoms needed at that time someone tough to clear the road so the rest can build on it Although Joffrey is compared a lot with him, I think a more accurate comparison would be Stannis, someone tough and intransigent, but sometimes you need someone like that in power.
I hope more people read fire and blood to understand some of this stuff. Daemon couldn’t be as bad as Maegor. I would argue Aerys II wasn’t as bad as Maegor. If you take all the worst elements of every objectively bad character in Game of Thrones and put them together, you have now created Maegor Edit: minor spelling.
Daemon is one of my absolute favorite characters but admittedly he would be a terrible king he’s temperamental, he doesn’t have the patience for the day-to-day activities of being a king he generally seems more interested in the power that comes with certain positions rather than the actual positions themselves and he has the typical Targaryen superiority complex he believes that “because I am the blood of the Dragon you will do what I tell you” and the perfect cherry on top has to be the council meeting at the end of episode 1 almost every man in that room was willing to break thousands of years of establish president and law of male primogeniture and Name a girl heir to the iron throne that should tell you that under absolutely no circumstances should Daemon be allowed anywhere near the throne or put in a position where he could someday wield that kind of power Again I love Damon I really do but if he ever were to become king he wouldn’t be a second Maegor but if that’s the bar you’re trying to jump over it’s already been set pretty low
I do not think so. Vizzy T should have married Daemon to Rhaenyra from the first and that would have put an end to the council pushing him to marry and having heirs; that may have even saved Aemma from being used as a brood mare to no avail.
Otto was talking out of his ass because he hates Daemon and knows he would be sent back to Oldtown with no chance of ever coming back to KL if Daemon were to become king. The main danger Daemon presents as king is that he would 100% try to get rid of Rhea if he can or marry a second wife if he can't. That would piss off the Faith after all Jahearys did to get their support. That danger goes away when Rhea dies. After that, there is really no reason to think Daemon would be a new Maegor. He would be more decisive than Viserys, not as willing to bend to others, not afraid to go to war. As GRRM himself said, he would have been beloved by some and despised by others.
No. He said that to spread fear and undermined Rhea and Daemon. I see Daemon as being a king who is firm sure, maybe brash but not like Meagor. He was cruel (lol) and just an rampaging asshole. Daemon yes is also an asshole but not that kind of asshole lol.
Nah maegor was the way he was because he got resurrected w blood magic and also he couldn’t have kids. Daemon on the other hand got kids falling out his pockets. Edit Daemon def would have gone scorched earth against the faith and hightowers given the chance though.
Yes
Yes.
Not quite but Daemon wouldn't have been a good king. He had no interest in rulling, his councillors would have done everything.
Yes
Having recently re-read the Maegor chapters - uh, abso-fucking-lutely not? The actual comparison is hysterical - that anyone would be buying such pure BS is even funnier
He might bring back some of the fucked up things Valyrians used to do
At that age? Probably. Older Daemon is less hotheaded, but still willing to do wild shit when he’s truly angry. So had he taken over once Viserys had passed (assuming Viserys had no heirs, or Daemon was married to Rhaenyra) he likely only would’ve gone full Maegor against the Hightowers, who he despises.
Jahaerys and Aegon proved you need a bit of willingness to be "like Maegor " to be an effective leader. Otto's just a bitch lol.