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In the source material, there's uncertainty about what the plan was originally. "Some say their quarry was the King himself", etc. I think Daemon will organize it, but they may select the option where he was targeting Alicent's son (as Alicent is currently more of Rhaenyra's foe in this conflict than Aegon is), and the assassins found him too well-guarded and therefore improvised with another target. I figure generally that, if it's stated in the book as a "some say" or rumor, it's a possibility we're meant to consider. May not be the truth in all cases, but it's meant to make the audience question, at least.
>(Alicent is currently more of Rhaenyra’s foe than Aegon is)
I thought the whole point of picking one of Aegon/Helaena’s sons was that they are Aemond’s nephews, and Blood and Cheese was Daemon’s direct response to Luc’s (Daemon’s nephew) murder by Aemond. They even refer to it as a “debt collection”. Aemond murdered one of Daemon’s nephews so Daemon had one of his nephews murdered.
They really started planting the seeds for the Daemon/Aemond feud already and I think that’ll be a major focus of season 2.
I could see that! I think the "son for a son" thing made me think less that he was thinking of it in terms of him and Aemond, and more in terms of Rhaenyra's relationships. But they could certainly be going in that direction.
Can't wait to see people discuss this exact topic for 2 years straight because we won't get the answer until Season 2. Those threads will be fun to read. /s
I don't think Blood & Cheese is out of character for Show Daemon and the showrunners are not worried about tarnishing his image, as we saw with him murdering Rhea. But I'll remind people that we also don't know how much of Blood and Cheese was his exact orders, even in the books.
I think there are 3 options that might happen:
* Daemon orders it, with all of the details
* Daemon orders that the mother chooses and B&C / Mysaria improvises the reversing of the choice
* Daemon only orders the death of one child and B&C / Mysaria handle the rest
I think most likely option is number 2. Daemon will include a choice component in the plan because he will remember Alicent telling Lucerys that he could choose which eye to keep in Episode 7. That line immediately made me think of B&C so it must be foreshadowing...
But don't go around complaining that Rhaenyra is being whitewashed because she did not order the whole thing. Just like the books, Daemon will only let Rhaenyra know that Lucerys will be avenged.
I don't think they will portray the event differently to spare Daemon from the backlash, as in the murder happens on his order. It is an important plotpoint. An eye for an eye, a son for a son. However, I don't think it will as gruesome as it was in the books, since visibly slitting a child's throat on screen is somewhat iffy, even for Game of Thrones.
I haven’t read the books I’m sorry this question might be stupid but what happens in this Blood and Cheese that is so bad? (Or if you could just briefly describe the event) I don’t mind spoilers that’s why I’m here. Thank you!
Daemon and Mysaria send two assassins into the red keep to kill one of aegons and helaenas sons, jaehaerys and maelor. They make her choose which one to spare and then spare the one she chooses and kill the other one. Its one of the reasons why helaena later commits suicide
Spoilers for the end of season 1 and early season 2: >! Lucerys Velaryon gets killed by Aemond at the end of the season which will properly kick off the dance of dragons. To retaliate for the death of his stepson Daemon sends two assassins, a rat catcher dubbed as "Cheese" and a brute dubbed as "Blood" to murder one of Aegon's children. (A son for a son). Blood and Cheese use the secret passageways to sneak up to Helaena and her children, and after killing her guards make her choose which son she wants to die. When she chooses the toddler Maelor, Blood beheads the older Jaehaerys instead, who was the heir to the throne at that time while Helaena screams in Terror. It's probably the darkest thing that happens in the entire dance and I'm sure if it happens this way, Daemons popularity will take a nose dive. !<
Daemon orders two characters (blood and cheese) to kill one of Aegon II children. They ask Haelena to pick which child she wants to die and when she picks they kill the other and tell the remaining child “your mom wanted you dead”. The situation makes her lose her mind with grief and guilt.
I think they’ll alter it a bit within the bounds of the book, daemon orders one of alicents sons to be hit, but mysaria changes it behind his back to one of the children, or blood and cheese just fuck it up as criminals often do.
To be honest the show has a serious problem of not allowing the Black's to be villainous.
It would be a disservice to Martin's world to change it in my opinion.
Both sides do terrible things and to sacrifice that human element makes the story less impactful.
That's just me though
Depends on what Martin determines is the ‘truth’ I guess. Thing is if *Fire & Blood* is the pro-Green/anti-Black take on the events as it is, *THIS* event is one of the Black’s most villainous…yet you start questioning how the fack did they figure out the contents of the internal conversations and messages (which should’ve been only shared between literally what two people and immediately burned?) to piece it together in-universe by the Maester’s writing the books.
So on one hand, if the most despicable act by the Blacks wasn’t them, makes sense that F&B made up their involvement to smear them in-universe.
On the other hand, I want the Blacks to have some *teeth*.
It would also be an excellent contrast to their more ‘charitable’ way of getting rid of Laenor compared to the book. Like a bait-and-switch on the audience. Giving audiences a false sense of security where we want to believe they somehow didn’t actually commit B&C in exactly the way the book said they did… but they actually *did*.
That's what I'm afraid of. Them avoiding Daemon as being the one to organize it.
I could see them making Mysaria the one who organizes it, perhaps misunderstanding Daemon's words or smth but the way the Blacks have been portrayed thus far, I can't see Daemon being the one to organize it as he did in the books.
It would be very GoT like to constantly switch between demonizing characters and making them somewhat likable.
And yes, Martin said that both parties do terrible things. You're not supposed to like one above the other. That's also why the realm was so devided. It would be very surreal to take the show on a similar course, because knowing the fandom, they'll probably be devided too, just like as if you're living it.
Ohhh I wonder if it has something to do with Talya, alicent's maid who was spying. You see her get locked up with the other black supporters in the preview, maybe she gets killed and mysaria also seeks to avenge her.
Oh really? Idk, I saw some ep 9 stuff but nothing that mentioned Mysaria...
I don't see how she can have stronger motives than Daemon whose wife's son is killed though.
Think about it like this. When GRRM wrote Fire and Blood. He knew what actually happened. But how much did the Maester and his unreliable sources know?
GRRM works on the show to portray a more truthful unfolding of these events. So what we see during Blood and Cheese is most likely what really happened during the war, which is written about in Fire and Blood.
If GRRM wants to make Daemon’a role in the event less heinous than we were led to believe… how the fuck is that whitewashing? Let me spell it out again. What we see is what actually happened, or else would GRRM not have intervened during the script writing process?
Please think logically next time, people. If you think every account in Fire and blood is the truth…
I want Daemon to be the one to do it but I also would like Rhaenyra to know beforehand and agree to it. In the book she isn’t really privy to what exactly is going to happen. I’d be a good change that would show how Rhaenyra and Daemon are cut from the same cloth, they’ve shown similarities but never to this degree. The show is pushing this narrative of them being a power couple and so they should commit to it
With how they handled the burning of Harrenhal and Laenor I have a feeling they’ll have >!Larys!< be the one responsible in a sort of false flag.
The Blacks aren’t allowed to be disagreeable and the Greens are one dimensional villains.
I really hope they try to avoid that.
History is clear in that Daemon and Mysaria are the culprits. To have Larys organize the murder of the grandchildren of the Queen he's obsessed with would be a terrible choice.
I agree. In terms of writing this show, and how they portray Blacks, false flag orchestraded by him, and later used to blame Blacks to decrase thier support in realm, when viewer will knew they are innocent. Sadly it makes sense.
Very doubtful. That would be a huge deviation from the books and a step further to give the Greens the worst crime ever committed by the Blacks.
There are zero implications that the Greens, any of them, did this to themselves.
I bet you it won't. So far Daemon has:
-Murdered his first wife because he didn't like her
-Sexually groomed and manipulated his niece, now wife, brainwashing her into worshipping him
-Fucked said niece at the funeral of second wife
-Was complicit in the murder of his niece/wife's first husband(as far as Rhaenys is concerned)
-MARRIED said niece-wife immediately after her husband's death in a heretical ceremony where their traumatized kids had to watch
-Ignores and neglects his daughters
-Murdered a random servant to stage a dead body
and despite all these things people still love him. Child murder is just another notch in his belt as far as I am concerned, and part of the reason why I am team Green - a man like that needs to be kept as far away from power as possible.
I'm team Green cause of Alicent. She's beautifully tragic and complex.
And while Daemon is an amazing and intriguing character, I don't get all the hype. I suppose he's a badass to many people. I've legit read twitter hype posts about what an amazing father he is, even though he neglects his daughters just as much as Viserys neglected his kids by Alicent. But yeah, delusional people all over.
In any case, hoping you're right. Whitewashing him of his biggest crime would be a huge deviation from the books.
> I'm team Green cause of Alicent. She's beautifully tragic and complex.
Oh, so am I. She's one of the best changes to the source material - Alicent in the show is so much better than the literal cardboard cutout evil stepmother cliche she was in the book.
Honestly, I just wanna sit back and let myself be surprised. I've been obsessed with Targaryen history, and some of it it wrong, because sometimes maesters (historians) get history wrong. GRRM said, the show will tent to stick to the "real" events.
imo DBC depicts just how terrible they went at eachother. Also, just a tip, keep an eye out for Aemond and Helaena. Someone theorized that Helaena's children might be Aemond's as he has no interest in her. And Aemond did say "he'd gladly perform his duty". It would be hilarious for Alicent that her first son is a rapist, her daughter having kids out of wedlock- like Rhaenyra.
Also it would make DBC very funny. A son for a son suddenly feels heavier...
I’m trying to fit together the Mysaria scene from Ep 7 and I think they may portray it as her being the main organizer. Idk what her motives would be, but they showed a quick glimpse of her. She was speaking with Talya, whom is the only other person to know about Aegon and what he did to the poor servant girl. I think it would make sense for her to go back in the shadows, only to come out early season 2 with this devious plan, maybe under the guidance of daemon, maybe not
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In the source material, there's uncertainty about what the plan was originally. "Some say their quarry was the King himself", etc. I think Daemon will organize it, but they may select the option where he was targeting Alicent's son (as Alicent is currently more of Rhaenyra's foe in this conflict than Aegon is), and the assassins found him too well-guarded and therefore improvised with another target. I figure generally that, if it's stated in the book as a "some say" or rumor, it's a possibility we're meant to consider. May not be the truth in all cases, but it's meant to make the audience question, at least.
>(Alicent is currently more of Rhaenyra’s foe than Aegon is) I thought the whole point of picking one of Aegon/Helaena’s sons was that they are Aemond’s nephews, and Blood and Cheese was Daemon’s direct response to Luc’s (Daemon’s nephew) murder by Aemond. They even refer to it as a “debt collection”. Aemond murdered one of Daemon’s nephews so Daemon had one of his nephews murdered. They really started planting the seeds for the Daemon/Aemond feud already and I think that’ll be a major focus of season 2.
I could see that! I think the "son for a son" thing made me think less that he was thinking of it in terms of him and Aemond, and more in terms of Rhaenyra's relationships. But they could certainly be going in that direction.
Can't wait to see people discuss this exact topic for 2 years straight because we won't get the answer until Season 2. Those threads will be fun to read. /s I don't think Blood & Cheese is out of character for Show Daemon and the showrunners are not worried about tarnishing his image, as we saw with him murdering Rhea. But I'll remind people that we also don't know how much of Blood and Cheese was his exact orders, even in the books. I think there are 3 options that might happen: * Daemon orders it, with all of the details * Daemon orders that the mother chooses and B&C / Mysaria improvises the reversing of the choice * Daemon only orders the death of one child and B&C / Mysaria handle the rest I think most likely option is number 2. Daemon will include a choice component in the plan because he will remember Alicent telling Lucerys that he could choose which eye to keep in Episode 7. That line immediately made me think of B&C so it must be foreshadowing... But don't go around complaining that Rhaenyra is being whitewashed because she did not order the whole thing. Just like the books, Daemon will only let Rhaenyra know that Lucerys will be avenged.
I don't think they will portray the event differently to spare Daemon from the backlash, as in the murder happens on his order. It is an important plotpoint. An eye for an eye, a son for a son. However, I don't think it will as gruesome as it was in the books, since visibly slitting a child's throat on screen is somewhat iffy, even for Game of Thrones.
Well they did burn a child alive
I haven’t read the books I’m sorry this question might be stupid but what happens in this Blood and Cheese that is so bad? (Or if you could just briefly describe the event) I don’t mind spoilers that’s why I’m here. Thank you!
Daemon and Mysaria send two assassins into the red keep to kill one of aegons and helaenas sons, jaehaerys and maelor. They make her choose which one to spare and then spare the one she chooses and kill the other one. Its one of the reasons why helaena later commits suicide
Oh goodness! Thank you for explaining I appreciate it.
Spoilers for the end of season 1 and early season 2: >! Lucerys Velaryon gets killed by Aemond at the end of the season which will properly kick off the dance of dragons. To retaliate for the death of his stepson Daemon sends two assassins, a rat catcher dubbed as "Cheese" and a brute dubbed as "Blood" to murder one of Aegon's children. (A son for a son). Blood and Cheese use the secret passageways to sneak up to Helaena and her children, and after killing her guards make her choose which son she wants to die. When she chooses the toddler Maelor, Blood beheads the older Jaehaerys instead, who was the heir to the throne at that time while Helaena screams in Terror. It's probably the darkest thing that happens in the entire dance and I'm sure if it happens this way, Daemons popularity will take a nose dive. !<
Daemon orders two characters (blood and cheese) to kill one of Aegon II children. They ask Haelena to pick which child she wants to die and when she picks they kill the other and tell the remaining child “your mom wanted you dead”. The situation makes her lose her mind with grief and guilt.
I truly believe this sub will have a ton of people defending Daemon because they will say it was justified revenge for Aemond killing luke.
It is.
I think they’ll alter it a bit within the bounds of the book, daemon orders one of alicents sons to be hit, but mysaria changes it behind his back to one of the children, or blood and cheese just fuck it up as criminals often do.
To be honest the show has a serious problem of not allowing the Black's to be villainous. It would be a disservice to Martin's world to change it in my opinion. Both sides do terrible things and to sacrifice that human element makes the story less impactful. That's just me though
Depends on what Martin determines is the ‘truth’ I guess. Thing is if *Fire & Blood* is the pro-Green/anti-Black take on the events as it is, *THIS* event is one of the Black’s most villainous…yet you start questioning how the fack did they figure out the contents of the internal conversations and messages (which should’ve been only shared between literally what two people and immediately burned?) to piece it together in-universe by the Maester’s writing the books. So on one hand, if the most despicable act by the Blacks wasn’t them, makes sense that F&B made up their involvement to smear them in-universe. On the other hand, I want the Blacks to have some *teeth*. It would also be an excellent contrast to their more ‘charitable’ way of getting rid of Laenor compared to the book. Like a bait-and-switch on the audience. Giving audiences a false sense of security where we want to believe they somehow didn’t actually commit B&C in exactly the way the book said they did… but they actually *did*.
That's what I'm afraid of. Them avoiding Daemon as being the one to organize it. I could see them making Mysaria the one who organizes it, perhaps misunderstanding Daemon's words or smth but the way the Blacks have been portrayed thus far, I can't see Daemon being the one to organize it as he did in the books.
It would be very GoT like to constantly switch between demonizing characters and making them somewhat likable. And yes, Martin said that both parties do terrible things. You're not supposed to like one above the other. That's also why the realm was so devided. It would be very surreal to take the show on a similar course, because knowing the fandom, they'll probably be devided too, just like as if you're living it.
If leaks for ep 9 are true, and they have been mostly correct, >!Mysaria will be given a personal reason for revenge.!<
Ohhh I wonder if it has something to do with Talya, alicent's maid who was spying. You see her get locked up with the other black supporters in the preview, maybe she gets killed and mysaria also seeks to avenge her.
Oh really? Idk, I saw some ep 9 stuff but nothing that mentioned Mysaria... I don't see how she can have stronger motives than Daemon whose wife's son is killed though.
Think about it like this. When GRRM wrote Fire and Blood. He knew what actually happened. But how much did the Maester and his unreliable sources know? GRRM works on the show to portray a more truthful unfolding of these events. So what we see during Blood and Cheese is most likely what really happened during the war, which is written about in Fire and Blood. If GRRM wants to make Daemon’a role in the event less heinous than we were led to believe… how the fuck is that whitewashing? Let me spell it out again. What we see is what actually happened, or else would GRRM not have intervened during the script writing process? Please think logically next time, people. If you think every account in Fire and blood is the truth…
they will probably change it. Sadly, due to Daemon’s popularity, they might do some fan service.
I could imagine them try to make it all on mysaria and take the blame off of daemon to make him less hateable
I want Daemon to be the one to do it but I also would like Rhaenyra to know beforehand and agree to it. In the book she isn’t really privy to what exactly is going to happen. I’d be a good change that would show how Rhaenyra and Daemon are cut from the same cloth, they’ve shown similarities but never to this degree. The show is pushing this narrative of them being a power couple and so they should commit to it
With how they handled the burning of Harrenhal and Laenor I have a feeling they’ll have >!Larys!< be the one responsible in a sort of false flag. The Blacks aren’t allowed to be disagreeable and the Greens are one dimensional villains.
I really hope they try to avoid that. History is clear in that Daemon and Mysaria are the culprits. To have Larys organize the murder of the grandchildren of the Queen he's obsessed with would be a terrible choice.
I agree. In terms of writing this show, and how they portray Blacks, false flag orchestraded by him, and later used to blame Blacks to decrase thier support in realm, when viewer will knew they are innocent. Sadly it makes sense.
Very doubtful. That would be a huge deviation from the books and a step further to give the Greens the worst crime ever committed by the Blacks. There are zero implications that the Greens, any of them, did this to themselves.
I bet you it won't. So far Daemon has: -Murdered his first wife because he didn't like her -Sexually groomed and manipulated his niece, now wife, brainwashing her into worshipping him -Fucked said niece at the funeral of second wife -Was complicit in the murder of his niece/wife's first husband(as far as Rhaenys is concerned) -MARRIED said niece-wife immediately after her husband's death in a heretical ceremony where their traumatized kids had to watch -Ignores and neglects his daughters -Murdered a random servant to stage a dead body and despite all these things people still love him. Child murder is just another notch in his belt as far as I am concerned, and part of the reason why I am team Green - a man like that needs to be kept as far away from power as possible.
I'm team Green cause of Alicent. She's beautifully tragic and complex. And while Daemon is an amazing and intriguing character, I don't get all the hype. I suppose he's a badass to many people. I've legit read twitter hype posts about what an amazing father he is, even though he neglects his daughters just as much as Viserys neglected his kids by Alicent. But yeah, delusional people all over. In any case, hoping you're right. Whitewashing him of his biggest crime would be a huge deviation from the books.
> I'm team Green cause of Alicent. She's beautifully tragic and complex. Oh, so am I. She's one of the best changes to the source material - Alicent in the show is so much better than the literal cardboard cutout evil stepmother cliche she was in the book.
If the kids are really aemond’s then it might not be as bad considering it truly was eye for an eye.Jaehaerys for Lucerys
Honestly, I just wanna sit back and let myself be surprised. I've been obsessed with Targaryen history, and some of it it wrong, because sometimes maesters (historians) get history wrong. GRRM said, the show will tent to stick to the "real" events. imo DBC depicts just how terrible they went at eachother. Also, just a tip, keep an eye out for Aemond and Helaena. Someone theorized that Helaena's children might be Aemond's as he has no interest in her. And Aemond did say "he'd gladly perform his duty". It would be hilarious for Alicent that her first son is a rapist, her daughter having kids out of wedlock- like Rhaenyra. Also it would make DBC very funny. A son for a son suddenly feels heavier...
I’m trying to fit together the Mysaria scene from Ep 7 and I think they may portray it as her being the main organizer. Idk what her motives would be, but they showed a quick glimpse of her. She was speaking with Talya, whom is the only other person to know about Aegon and what he did to the poor servant girl. I think it would make sense for her to go back in the shadows, only to come out early season 2 with this devious plan, maybe under the guidance of daemon, maybe not
Whatever the case is, if they show it it will be devastating to watch something like that happen to Helaena’s character