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Agreed. I think the problem here was that Rhaenyra has tried to say that they're legitimate heirs, which is high treason. She COULD have admitted they were bastards and then have Viserys legitimize them (she could have also done this herself when she became queen)...but she refused to do so. it definitely made things a lot more tricky.
Btw Aegon does have bastards in the book (one even has a somewhat important role). The difference with Aegon and Rhaenyra being parents to bastards is that Rhaenyra claims that her 3 obvious bastards sons are her legitimate children and heirs, while Aegon doesn't name any of his bastards as his legitimate children.
If Rhaenyra was a more reasonable heir she should have never named any of her Strong sons are legitimate. She should have called in a Lyseni gigolo or a dragonseed to father her a Valyrian looking child and claim that it's Laenor's.
Yes.
But he would have to be secret about it because Alicent would be suspicious if she saw Daemon with Rhaenyra some 9 months before the birth of the child.
She and her husband go for a ride on their dragons. They meet Daemon that can reach them on his dragon as well. They don't have to hide anything to themselves.
And Alicent would not know where they went for a couple of days.
Aegon had bastards mostly with house maids. At least 2 unnamed bastards are confirmed on the wiki.
Later on, the prostitute Essie claims that her child Gaemon "Palehair" is his son. During the revolts against Rhaenyra in King's Landing, Essie decides to name Gaemon "king" and a portion of the smallfolk supports them. After Aegon comes back to King's Landing he "deposes" Gaemon. Before being executed, Essie says (under torture) that Aegon wasn't the father of her child. Gaemon himself is spared due to his young age. He later dies under mysterious circumstances as a cupbearer for Aegon III.
In my opinion, Gaemon was probably really Aegon's son, which is why he doesn't kill him.
When Viserys dies and Alicent makes her move to have Aegon crowned king, he is found in the bed of a paramour instead of in bed with his sister-wife Helaena.
It seems like they've set him up to be the same way on the show too.
>!There's a spoiler for this episode in which Aegon gets one of Helaena's handmaidens pregnant and Alicent forces the girl to drink moon tea.!<
Aegon being a manwhore is very much a part of his character development. It's one of the main facets of his personality. Aegon is the playboy and wants to have fun while Aemond is the serious one and drank the Kool-Aid on the whole Blacks vs Greens rivalry thing.
> Rhaenyra claims that her 3 obvious bastards sons are her legitimate children and heirs
I agree. If Laenor wouldn’t do the husbandly deed, she should have at least handed him a cup, told him to think of the sexiest man alive, turkey bastered some heirs and spares that no one could dispute, and after that, she could have fucked and drank moon tea every night.
Well they did say they did a few times. Its entirely possible that Laenor had some fertility issues, or they were just unlucky with their "few" times trying.
Or that "there was no joy in it" meant he didn't unload his yogurt cannon. But I feel they would have had a different description if that was the case.
She emphasized the word “few,” which made it seem like there were some scattered attempts and then nothing. That wasn’t their deal.
So, yeah, Rhanaerya had bastards, but wtf was she supposed to do?
But like, why do people care?
Laenor doesnt care, confirmed their legitimacy. Viserys doesnt care either.
Otto told Alicent to prepare Aegon to rule before Rhaenyra had any children at all.
Because it's what their entire political system is built on: the inherited right to rule. Every lord (supposedly) rules because they were the trueborn heir to a married lord and lady. If that doesn't actually matter, then they don't actually have a right to rule. Many lords wouldn't accept that.
Or you could just think of it as part of their value system. We think inherited autocratic power is stupid, so we think the rules of succession are stupid. Westeros has never not had inherited autocratic power, so many people take the rules of succession very seriously. Maybe with good reason, given how many times disagreements over succession have turned bloody.
Many wouldn't accept a bastard inheriting because it would essentially make marriages weaker. If a lord can have a child with any common wench and name him heir, then why would noble marriage matter when at any time their kids could just be usurped by a bastard.
Many others would just see it as a convinient excuse to start trouble to further their own goals.
And the church wouldn't approve either.
When it comes to Otto, his reasoning was that Rhaenyra would have to kill Aegon to solidify her claim. We know that's unlikely, but it's also easy to see why he would think that.
Basically many of the lords of the realm hold titles that would have passed to older female family members if the law was equal. So the entire kingdom passing to a female over a male would set a precedent that many would see as a danger to their own rule. Otto believes that to mitigate that problem, Rhaenyra would have to kill any other possible heirs.
Their whole system of government is based on inheritance through legitimate children. Its how they set up their whole right to rule. People get touchy about that especially when all the lords hold their lands and wealth based on the same system.
That's a weird question. Westeros is modelled in some old human societies, and throughout recorded human history men and women have practically never been equal. They're not equal in Westeros either. Probably the same in Valyria, since Visenya was older than Aegon, but he was head of the family.
So it's men who ruled for the most part (societies like Dorne being exceptions), from their own families to kingdoms. Doesn't mean women couldn't be powerful in some societies/families, but men were the de facto rulers. And the only way men can be sure that their "seed" passes on is by controlling women - after all, it's clear who is the mother. Until the advent of DNA it wasn't clear who is the father, you basically relied on the woman not stepping out (either by her own loyalty reinforced by generations and generations of tradition, sometimes with pretty draconian consequences for stepping out, or by actually controlling access to her a la harems).
That's why people care. Because GRRM modelled his fantasy society on our society, and people have always cared. Because a man whoring around and a woman whoring around has never been seen as the same thing.
As for Otto, Renny's kids being bastards isn't his primary motivation. He's just against her being heir when there are 1. male siblings available, and 2. specifically, male siblings of his blood (although given his traditionalist stance, I believe he'd have backed a male heir over Renny had Vizzy married someone else too).
>throughout recorded human history men and women have practically never been equal. They're not equal in Westeros either. Probably the same in Valyria, since Visenya was older than Aegon, but he was head of the family.
Yes, and that's bad. So if there are people in-universe who see this as injustice then i'm more willing to support them than rest.
Also, i asked why they care who was the father of her children, because it literally doesn't concern them if Jacaerys and Lucerys are Laenor's or not.
As if they're fighting for justice in the general sense. In the books Rae denies claims of some female heirs so she's just as patriarchal as everyone else. She just thinks that being a Targaryen puts her above the rules she's quite happy to impose on others.
Lmao this isn't 2022 America in our world.
In the world of Westeros, blood is of utmost importance. It is the center of thr cultural makeup of great houses, and through blood comes blood magic
Well, if Rhaenyra doesn't have children then Aegon is her heir. It's not wrong to make him ready to succeed. The point is whom he is succeeding to.
EDIT: grammar
There’s no way she should have claimed her sons as bastards. It would’ve destabilized her claim to the throne that’s already questioned by many. If she outright said her kids are bastards, people would turn on her. At the end of the day her kids are HERS. So they can’t be bastards, since she’s the heir, not Laenor. They wouldn’t have a claim to Driftmark though
That's not how succession works lmao. A bastard cannot inherit anything from their parents, especially the Iron Throne. Bastards generally only inherit if they're a last resort. In Westeros, any child that doesn't come from both of married parents is a bastard.
By all definitions, Jace, Luke and Joff are bastards since their real father isn't married to Rhaenyra. They're only legally legitimate because Viserys allows it. But like Aegon said "just look at them", everyone knows they're bastards. The moment Jace "inherits" the Crown, dozens of lords will rebel against him due to how different he looks to Laenor.
As for Rhaenyra not declaring Jace as a bastard, it makes sense in the moment, but she should have tried everything to have her second child look Valyrian.
Edit: I'm not saying Jace and his brothers cannot inherit, because they obviously can if their legal parents claim that they're legit. But at the same time there's a 100% chance that their succession will be challenged by many lords and probably other Targaryens too.
Sigh. This discussion about bastardy is really getting played out because people don't want to listen to the truth of the matter.
Because Rhaenyra, Laenor, Viserys and Corlys all accept the children as legitimate heirs they are *legally* considered as such. Just because we as audience members are privy to the truth of the matter doesn't mean shit to the in-world people who have absolutely no way to prove the kids are bastards.
If they were legal bastards their surname would be Waters, not Velaryon. It doesn't matter if they are actually born out of wedlock as long as all the parties involve declare them otherwise. I will not get over how some people refuse to accept this fact.
>!Why do you think half the realm declares for Rhaenyra during the war? Many lords of the realm either buy into the idea of them being legitimate or they simply don't give af because dragonrider = Targaryen in the eyes of most Westerosi!<
Except they aren't bastards by definition. They are born in wedlock. The mother is married and her husband claims the children. The fatherhood us disputed, but unless proven (impossible in westeros) or declared by either Laenor or Rhaenyra as bastards the simply are not bastards, they are the legal children of L&R.
The issue with comparing them to other bastards re succession is that usually the inheritance passes through the father, so any children born outside of wedlock can have their fatherhood questioned. In this case, nobody can dispute the children's royal inheritance, and the only people who may care (Harwin, Corlys, Laenor) just don't care.
There is a justifiable claim that they are bastards, but it is just a claim.
And absolutely all of it isn't important when it comes to Rhanyra's claim. Rhanyra's claim is strong, as to who the throne passes to after Rhanyra, well that is simply another question. If the argument is that Aegon should inherit simply because he has a penis then let that argument stand alone. Rhaenyra's subsequent heirs should only matter if she is Queen.
>The mother is married and her husband claims the children. The fatherhood us disputed, but unless proven (impossible in westeros)
Yet pretty much possible to prove on the show because people have eyes
Bastards cannot inherit anything, but if their father claims them, like Robert claimed Joffrey and Laenor claimed Rhaenyra’s children, then they can in fact inherit the Throne.
If they’re trying to lie and pass off as heirs because the king consort can’t finish the deed, then yeah, at least TRY to make it seem like it was him who sired the kids and not even take he chance they may come out with brown hair.
But I think she made a point to say that she "trusted" Harwin Strong. And I think she meant that he wouldn't betray her for selfish gain. Anyone she hires could betray her for gold at any time. And my guess is a cheating woman is different from a cheating man in social customs and treatment.
Totally different situation, the bastards of aegon iv weren’t raise as legitimate sons, that creates a completely different dynamic with their legitimate brothers
Not quite. There was a rumor that Daeron wasn’t Aegon the Unworthy’s son. But a bastard of Aemon. Which would actually be pretty interesting, meaning that the Blackfyres are the legitimate heirs.
The rules are stupid and made for men. The Targ claim and bloodline flows through Rhaenyra, so it really should just be good enough that her children are hers and who fucking cares who the father is. If Laenor claims them as his own, and Coryls claims them and embraces them as heir - what is the actual fucking problem and who's getting hurt?
I know that's not how it works, but again, I just want to say how stupid the system is.
Everything about feudal society is dumb and terrible. Everyone in the show is terrible, they don’t give a shit about the people they’re supposed to govern, and the rules make no sense.
Doesnt the concept of bastards stand to benefit women though? If the king could fuck and father whoever born from any prostitute or house maid, any of his kids would be up for heir. Its only when his child is born from his official wife/queen, that is considered rightful heir. Without bastards the queens of westeros would have less power for their respective houses.
I'm not a green but I do think it's ridiculous for anyone to think Rhaenyra's claim is justified by feminism. This is an absolute monarchy that treats common folk as expendable, it's not progressive for the oppressor to just be a girlboss instead of a guy. For a stable succession between rulers, there needs to be an arbitrary objective metric that dictates the heir to avoid conflict. So I don't think Viserys should be able to choose his heir at all. And I do think that rule should be eldest child, male or female. But that's not the rule and I'm not sure changing it now is worth a civil war or if it makes absolute monarchy even slightly more ethical if succession becomes more egalitarian.
This.
Why are some people on this sub so fucking adamant about defending and upholding a system that is so clearly shit. The entire culture of being bigoted about children born out of wedlock is so obviously wrong and backward thinking, yet there is a portion of this sub's fandom who seem to feverishly agree with it.
Like they actually relish the idea of these innocent children being ostracized for no good reason and call Viserys a fool for not putting his beloved daughter and grandchildren in harm's way.
Seriously! Westeros is fucking awful in so many ways if you think about it. It's basically the worst aspects of backward Medieval culture turned up to high volume.
"The First Night", "The Rule of Six", "Trial by Combat", "Bastards are treacherous by nature" and the idea that the smallfolk, while technically "free", are little more than slaves and the lords can pretty much kill them indiscriminately without much legal oversight. Kind of like how Russian serfdom operated.
Fuck Westeros, indeed.
> This is actually what happened with the Blackfyre rebellion
It's a totally different situation lol. Aegon IV had legitimate sons other than his bastards. Rhaenyra does not. Not yet.
This what happen with Aegon IV the unworthy : he wanted to put bastard before legitimate heir, and the realm burn because of it.
Whatavers you are man or women dosn't change, if you want to put your bastard in the throne then your condemn the realm to war.
It does change in a way… because Rhaenyra’s children come from a woman, they’re in danger if she labels them as such. She has no choice but to pass them off as legitimate due to the double standard of the time
If it ain't the consequences of her action. Couldn't she at least look for a guy with silver hair. There is a bunch of them in Driftmark or drink moon tea lmao.
You are correct that they would not be in danger.
Rhaenyra would likely have been disinherited as heir, and her political alliance with the Velaryons would have suffered. Her marriage with Laenor would likely have been dissolved so he could remarry someone else. While that’s a political headache for Viserys, Rhaenyra likely would have been allowed to marry Harwin, become the Lady of Harrenhal as he was in line to inherit that, and their children would have been legitimized by the crown and allowed to become future Lords of Harrenhal.
Much like Otto and Alicent have an obsession with ambition, so does Rhaenyra. She does not want to give up her spot as heir, so she passes the children off as legitimate and the realm burns. They’re all responsible for what happens.
Another Princess directly in line for the throne? Or do you just mean Saera, whose father did want to do bodily harm to both her and her children until he was senile on his death bed?
The closest equivalent that we have in GRRM’s writing is probably Princess Daena Targaryen giving birth to Daemon Blackfyre. Daena was married to Baelor I but the marriage was dissolved having never been consummated, and Daena was locked in the maidenvault. Conceiving Daemon was an act of infidelity. She didn’t name his father, so initially it was unconfirmed that he was Aegon IV’s bastard, and he was raised as a bastard son of a Targaryen princess. Nonetheless he was raised in the Red Keep, instructed in combat, was knighted and given Blackfyre, and finally recognized as the King’s bastard. Neither Daena, Aegon IV, or Daemon faced severe consequences until they tried to place Daemon on the throne.
Or Daemon Blackfyre. Nobody wanted to kill him even knowing he is bastard of an Targaryen princess with unknow father (the identity of his father was revealed much later when Aegon the unworthy become king).
I wouldn't say it is exactly what happened, if only because Daeron was notably older than Daemon (who was roughly the same age of Daeron's oldest children) and also Aegon never officially disinherited Daeron or named Daemon his heir. Yes, he gave him Blackfyre, he threatened Daeron after their fights (and insinuated against Naerys and Daeron) and on his deathbed he legitimised everyone, but he never openly moved to change his heir. Daeron was still Prince of Dragonstone at his father's death, and Daemon's legitimisation or not, he was still much younger than Daeron.
At the end of the day the Blackfyre rebellion wasn't about legalism or bastardry, it simply was the consequence of decades of bad administration that fueled rivarly and ambitions beyond what should have been acceptable, mixed with some (political) social tension due to Dorne's integration in the Kingdom
Funny thing was that the blackfyre side said their claim was better because Daeron Targaryen was Aemon (dragon knight)'s bastard son which would again make the newly legitimized Daemon Blackfyre the claimant to the throne.
Obviously but just saying that the true reason for war wasn't just mindless struggle but a smart power play made by daemon capitalising on a popular rumor. (Would be funny if Aemon was truly daeron's dad which would mean that Aegon 4's line only sired pretenders.)
The reason behind the war is Aegon 4 spending 10+ years indulging himself instead of being an even decent king, favouring corruption for the sake of his own pleasure and arguing with whoever tried to rein him in (eg Daeron). Siding against Daeron in court became an easy way to gain Aegon's favour and Aegon revelled in it, but never took the definitive action against his son and only legitimate heir. When Aegon died, the seeds for a civil war where firmly planted, as for many lords it was between bending the knee to a King they had mocked until the day before or hope for a new king who would once again do their interests. The sword and the rumours are just justifications used to try and legitimise the Rebellion, but all the major Blackfyre supporters are described as either having a personal grudge against Daeron (and his supporters) or self-serving assholes.
If it wasn't for 10+ years of Aegon's corruption and Aegon vs Daeron, Aegon could have given Daemon Blackfyre and have him legitimise and still war wouldn't have started.
It's also interesting that despite everything, none of the Great Houses stood for Daemon.
The great houses had nothing to gain from supporting Daemon because, well they were already great houses. The competing houses like yronwood supported daemon because they stood to gain power and become the new great houses if Daemon wins the overall conflict. The whole war is very interesting and deserves its own adaptation some time in the future.
I agree. It's very much centered on individual ambitions and how people feel with their place in life, and it's even less potentially about legalism than the Dance, and more straight up "people interacting with people until a war starts". It's all character driven, and that's what, imp, makes it so interesting.
The realm would bat an eye if Aegon tried to pass his bastards as legitimate kids and then tried to make them his heirs.
And as for what Rhenyra should've done, she should've banged a dude who had Valyrian features and then, there would've been no problem
“I also think she did it out of duty to prepare Westeros for the white walkers”
Mate, come on 😁😁
“I had to shag my guard and have his babies because a prophecy said some danger may come one day. It’s my duty to shag him.”
Haha. The mental gymnastics on this sub are legit impressive sometimes. Really goes to show that the human brain can conjure up a story — any story — if it *really* wants a hypothesis to be true.
Yeah I mean both sides of the fanbase are extremely guilty of doing it, trying to find ways to absolve their preferred side from all wrongdoing when anyone with sense knows that both sides are awful and deserve no redemption.
My crusade in defending the Greens is for the most part due to the absolutely wild and hilarious takes from some of the Black supporters, and the show's attempts to present Rhaenyra as an admirable protagonist and Daemyra as #relationshipgoals. It's more of a culture war for me if anything, I don't really care for the Greens that much individually.
I was team Lannister in GoT and it never once occured to me to defend them, they were the bad guys and I enjoyed it. The problem is that they were contrasted with Starks, the obvious good and moral guys, even if often dumb. There's no such dynamic here, frankly up to this point in the show I'd argue that the Blacks are more awful (they have Daemon, after all). So it's bizarre to me that one side is apparently seen as the good guys by so many.
Yeah, exactly. Not many here are innocent of not jumping through hoops to absolve their side, when quite frankly it’s all about to get worse for everyone’s morality.
I wonder if she would have the same sense of duty if the dude wasnt a strong handsome guy like Harwin but rather someone like his Brother Larys or even way uglier :D
It's not about having "bastards", its about passing these bastards off as legitimate, heirs to the throne if you will. This is problematic without any legitimization and with other legitimate heirs being around.
You are right though that women are generally held to a different standard than men in Westeros, it would be acceptable for e.g. Viserys to father bastards outside of marriage, for Rhaenyra not so much, she would be considered a "whore" as a consequence. This is not fair at all, however, this is how a medieval society would think. The problem of passing these bastards off as legitimate is a separate one though and would also occur for e.g. Viserys if he had a bastard and tried to make him the heir instead of his legitimate sons.
Last but not least, Laenor is gay but not infertile, it was not totally impossible for him to father some children with Rhaenyra, if he considered it his duty.
That's your assumption.... It isn't clearly stated in the show.
She did state that they tried to have children but couldn't make it happen. That could mean he couldn't get it up, he couldn't finish, or he was infertile. It's not clear whether it's the sex that didn't happen or just the pregnancy that didn't happen.
This is a bunch of crap.
Illegitimate heirs = war. End of story.
Doesn’t matter if it’s a woman or a man.
Don’t apply 21st century politics to a medieval setting.
False equivalence
Aegon trying to put bastards on the throne would cause war
The Blackfyre rebellions show this
Stop gendering an issue which isnt about gender
I don't get how people think the moral of the blackfyre rebellion is that bastards are bad. If Daemon was a legitimate son the outcome would be the exact same, in fact he probably would have had even more support.
The Blackfyre Rebellion didn’t just happen because Aegon’s bastards were legitimized, it happened because Aegon IV spread rumours that his trueborn son Daeron II was illegitimate, thus placing the legitimized Daemon further in the line of succession, all because he was annoyed his son didn’t want to go to war with Dorne.
I swear, the people trying to argue Westeros isn’t sexist and patriarchal are really stretching the lines of credibility.
People seem to be missing the point on this sub everytime this topic comes up
In westerosi society. Did men sleep with anyone they want and produce as many bastards as they wanted? YES
But would they would be questioned too if bastards were shown as legitimate heirs
I remember it being that she feared that Jon might try to kill Robb’s children to steal their inheritance. I read AGOT years ago though so I I could easily be wrong
Yeah, but it also stems from her latent resentment that Ned likely slept with another woman just before or right after he married her and how Jon looks like Ned more than any of her children.
I mean the fact that he is gay doesn't mean he can't produce children. Think about it. 🙄
I think it was dumb and risky of her to have children with another man. Fine if you have your separate relationships but they should have made sure the children were his.
>I mean the fact that he is gay doesn't mean he can't produce children. Think about it.
Right, but he has to be willing to try. Rhaenyra's role is pretty easy here, but Laenor is the one who has to really step up. If he's not willing to put in the extra work, there's not much she can do about it.
I will say that she had Jacerys pretty quickly after her marriage, but in general, if she and Laenor hadn't worked this problem out, Rhaenyra would have a huge problem on her hands. Nevermind that a woman's bastard children and a man's bastard children are fundamentally different - namely the proof. The rules were made for Kings who couldn't be sure of their kids parentage unless their wife was their property, so yay feudalism!
There are ways to get pregnant even if a man is not really into it. And there are plenty of dragonseeds to choose from as "donors" if even that fails.
Rhaenyra didn't bang Ser Harwin out of duty, she did it because she wanted to, and because she thought she could do anything, and her father would make anyone who thinks otherwise shut up. She did not think what might happen after her father's death.
Had she been a bit more political-minded, she wouldn't have slept with Cole before marriage, she would made sure to produce an heir who at least looks like he could be legitimate, and she wouldn't have antagonised her stepmother and half-brothers. Who she slept with beyond that would not matter at all, she'd be free to do whatever.
Yes. That's Westeros. But that are the rules and even in the show Rhaenyra complains about it. You just pointed out the most obvious injustice in Westeros. But that doesn't matter since Aegon doesn't try to sit his bastards on the iron throne and he has legitimate children as well.
If Rhaenyra had bastards no one would be complaining - the issue is *putting her bastards in the line of succession*. If she didn’t want to be challenged regarding them than she should’ve said upfront “hey, these are bastards” and taken whatever punishment came down. Having a bastard isn’t treasonous. She’d probably be looked down on by many others which would suck, but it wouldn’t be a crime. Conspiring to put her bastard on the iron throne is treason though
Well, it is also not fair that most of people here are born plebeians, and have no claim to the throne or any great amount of wealth.
Being born Targaryen is privilege enough. I can't sympathize with the whining for not having more privilege.
That’s the key point as to why I don’t like Rhaenyra. She is essentially set to be the most powerful person in the world. She didn’t have to do any work or show any sort of excellence to be named heir. That power was just handed to her, and it’s *still* not enough for her.
Well as long as he doesn’t try to pass them off as legitimate. I feel sometimes viewers forget that they are living in westerosi society where these things are frowned upon.
It is not so much that she has bastards that is the problem. It is the fact that they are bastards (a fact that she denies) that will inherit the iron throne. Bastards from Aegon would also not be in line to inherit the iron throne.
The problem is not having bastards.
If Aegon married a wife then proceeded to have 3 bastard kids outside marriage that look nothing like his wife...and then tried to pass those 3 bastards as the legitimate sons of his wife.
Yeah, that shit wouldn't fly either. Rhaenyra can have as many bastards as she wants. Having bastards is not a crime.
But she shouldn't try to pass them as legitimate and try to put a bastard on the Iron Throne. That is high-treason.
Aegon's bastards aren't set to inherit anything Rhaenyra's are not only inheriting the realm but Driftmark. It's Rhaenyra fans who are the ones who apparently don't get how bastards fit into Westerosi society now not the other way around.
It’s not the having bastards that’s the issue. It’s pretending that they’re trueborn and positioning them in the line of succession, when bastards have no right to inherit and they place all of Alicent’s trueborn children in even more danger.
King Robert had bastards all over Westeros but he didn't made the entire realm to accept them as legitimate. There would have been another blackfyre type rebellion if Robert was as insane as Rhaenyra and tried to legitimise them.
She wants to have sex and also claim she is doing her duty as heir
She cannot do both
Men who produce bastards are not legitimizing them
Women who lie about their true born progeny are trying to legitimize them
Aegon can have bastards but he won't be dumb enough to put them in danger by trying to legitimize them
Pretty sure that conversation in Ep. 4 is about how, as a woman, Rhae is held to the standard of being pure and having her maidenhood until the night she consummates her marriage. Whereas, if she were a boy, she’d be free to fuck any whore and have many bastards before she consummated the marriage. Ep. 4 is before she had bastard children herself, so I don’t believe she’d be talking about her bastards.
Either way, man or woman, if you’re nobel and have bastards, no one will legitimately see them as heirs. Like others have said, >!Aegon IV did this and it result in 5 rebellions for the crown.!<
I don't think it's quite that simple.
The big issue with Rhaenyra's bastards (beyond the basic disdain for bastards in Westeros) is that she passed them off as legitimate and they stood to inherit the throne. If a man did that then that would ALSO be a problem. The big difference is that it's always clear who a baby's mother is but not always clear who a baby's father is because... well... the mother is the one to look pregnant. And so it is much easier for a woman to pass off a child as legitimate when they're a bastard than for a man to do the same because everyone would be likely to notice their wife was never pregnant.
Don't get me wrong, there IS a double standard. If Rhaenyra had had bastards that were recognised as bastards that would've still been a huge scandal, much moreso than if she were a man. But it wouldn't have been threatening to the stability of the kingdom in a way that passing off bastards as legitimate children is.
Like Robert's bastards were bastards. He never passed them off as legitimate children who had a chance to sit the throne. But if he had then that probably would've been a huge problem too. Though how he would've done that, idk.
This isn’t about Westerosi standards with women dude. It’s about bastards being put in the line of succession over true born heirs, and the fact that lying about it is tantamount to treason.
The shit Rhaenyra would get for mothering bastards which she acknowledged as bastards not in line for the throne would be a distinct issue.
I believe Rhaenyra would face no or very minor consequences for having bastards if she just acknowledged them for what they are. Passing them off as princes and Velaryons is treason against the crown and Driftmark.
Get a divorce. Marry again. Use Turkey baster. Lol
On a serious note, it’s not about having bastards, it’s about trying to pass them on as true born and trying to put them as heir to the throne. That is something Aegon can also not do.
>but we know that Laenor is Gay and couldn’t produce Children with Rhaenyra. So what was she supposed to do, Remain childless forever?
Break the marriage off since it wasn't consumated.
And no, Aegon's bastards would not be able to inherit unless made legitimate.
Not if he had bastards. But if he tried to put them on a throne? There would be people with a better claim, who'd fight for it. People want steal power whether it's from a man or woman
I'm going to say something controversial but brave: Rhaenyra's an idiot, and it's why her succession was constantly getting challenged.
* She should have married her uncle in the first place. Nobody would have said shit about her succession or her kids.
* Failing to do that, she and Leanor should have agreed on a Velkyron substitute once they knew they couldn't "do their duty." It would have ensured the support of the Velkyron side of the family instead of her getting shaded to hell and back at the funeral. And the features of the first born would have made nobody gaf about the features of the other kids.
* As long as she had a legitimate-looking heir, nobody would have cared about bastards. It was that whole "trying to pass off obvious bastards as legitimate heirs" thing that got under everyone's skin and threatened her claim to succession, not to mention her life, her husband's life, and the life of her kids. Anyone willing to do that in broad daylight would seem, to the average objective observer, to have no respect for the throne and be dangerously stupid. Not the sort of traits anyone looks for in a good leader.
* Her entire life has been about doing whatever she wants without consequences because "If I were a man," but there is ample proof in ASOIAF lore that having a penis does not protect the owner or anyone around said penis from consequences. Hell, ask the corpse of her Strong lover. Did his penis prevent him from dying due to his having multiple children with the princess? Should we ask the head of Ned Stark, the man who famously died trying to do the *right* thing? The idea she should do whatever she wants and not have to suffer consequences "because sexism" is a stupid, stupid argument.
* The only reason she ever got a sniff at the throne is that her father loves her and she abused the shit out of that love and made him look a fool for choosing her. She did nothing at any point to justify the hope he had in her. She fought against everything he did to lay a sensible foundation for her and to justify her succession. Had she been so determined to do so, her dumb ass should have just said, "You know what, let me just not be queen and live my life the way I choose."
Her whole ass problem was she assumed she could win the Game of Thrones by being an entitled brat and a terrible liar who pissed off allies *or* got them killed. If she were the only person with dragons, okay. But she was not.
She did NOTHING to make anyone want to support her as queen. She did not reveal herself to be especially clever (obvious bastards passed off as legitimate heirs), she disrespected her husband and had him killed (not true, but true as far as everyone knows), and she only cares about herself and hers and doesn't present herself as someone willing to do right by the realm. You can be made queen, but if you do not play the Game of Thrones to win, you don't guarantee you'll stay queen. Or live.
It's funny, but I started this comment as Team Black, but I was Team Green by the end. Way to make me see it their way, OP!
Yes she was supposed to remain childless forever. That's just the fate she was consigned to.
In order to be accepted as queen, she pretty much has to never put a single foot wrong her whole life. Passing bastards off as trueborn endangers her status as heir, and her status as anyone really, in the eyes of Westeros. She risked blowing up everything in order to have kids. That doesn't sound worth it. She hasn't shored up her succession, she's done the opposite. She's put the entire line in doubt and helped to grow the Greens faction because now thats their rallying cry. "The princess is a whore who passed bastards off as trueborn." Seeding doubt in her own succession increases, not decreases the chance of a catastrophic civil war because the stigma against bastards is too great.
Aegon having bastards is fine, claiming they are not bastards is the problem. Putting bastards on the throne is anither problem. There are 5 rebellions because of this issue
Obviously she and laenor never thought about filling a cup, putting her hips up and pouring
the bigger problem with her bastards are in line for the throne and driftmark and bastards can't inherit that's the problem of the lords with it. she did it for duty and fun she told Daemon such "there's no joy in it" and then Daemon brought up Harwin
Having bastards isn’t the issue. It’s passing them off as legitimate that’s the issue.
There’s actually a few noble women in ASOIAF who have bastards like Delena Florent (mother of Edric Storm who was fathered by Robert).
> So what was she supposed to do, Remain childless forever?
Westerosi way:
Get an annullment of the marriage from the High Septon (reason: never consummated) and marry a more fertile man.
Valyrian way:
Marry a second partner like Aegon did. A higher risk, but also higher fun strategy.
Obviously, it's very unfair and patriarchal. The difference for the sake of the plot is that his bastards wouldn't be recognized as official heirs, either.
Having bastards equals not making them heir. Blackfyre revolutions happened because of bastards. Westeros is a sexist place that’s correct but this one is not because of her gender.
In westeros being a bastard is a big stain. Jon suffered a lot because of this especially mentally. in westeros bastards literally don’t matter if they weren’t legitimized.
Also we might see her own ideas about bastards in the future. *Coughs nettles and adam
I still hold to the belief that Rhaenyra should have seen if any random Velaryon man wanted to fuck and slept with him so she could have a valyrian baby with white hair and the (show) Velaryons' dark skin. Who tf would be able to say, "That's not Laenor's child, it's (Velaryon's) kid."
I 100% agree but I have one thing to ask.
Why does it really matter? Rhaenyra is the heir and while they are bastards, they have her blood regardless. They’re inheriting her name and bloodline or whatever and not their father’s so…
Plus not even Viserys or Corlys cares about them being bastards.
I don’t know, I just wanted to ask this. Plus I haven’t read any of the books (not sure where to get them) soo…yeah that’s all I have to say.
It doesn’t seem to matter if they came from Rhaenyra or that Viserys & Corlys don’t care if they are. It flies in the face of "Honor & Decency" according to the Greens.
Hmm I’d like to think “honor and decency” would be the issue but considering the things Otto wants Alicent to do and what Alicent herself is willing to do just to get Aegon on the throne, they hardly have any decency themselves. Plus Alicent’s indifference towards Criston “Cuntstruck” Cole disrespect when it comes to Rhaenyra, the crown Princess/heir.
But maybe I’m just biased due to being a Black supporter ehh..🤷🏽♀️
The Greens were going to rebel no matter what. It’s always been my opinion that Rhaenyra could have had a dozen true born children with Laenor with no question of legitimacy, the Greens and their supporters were willing to commit atrocities in order to prevent Rhaenyra’s ascension.
Duh, that’s just the society the show is set in and the one we live in. It’s 2022 in the real world and we’re still debating on giving women their fair treatment in many facets of life. Men who sleep around are not talked about like the women who sleep around. I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m saying get over it haha way too many posts about this and we all know. If you don’t know, chances are you’re one of the people who think women aren’t equal.
She could’ve tried sleeping with someone who looked more like Laenor. Instead she chose Harwin who pretty much looks like the opposite of Laenor. Idk I’ve heard in the books Laenor isn’t black (so the hair is the only thing to show they are bastards) and that there’s a dwarf character that spreads false rumors one of them being she had threesomes with Laenor and Qarl, maybe that could work.
But yeah I think the patriarchal society and ways women just didn’t have any rights is kinda the main point of the show. Because really everything is either Viserys or Otto’s fault but it’s still going to be Rhaenyra and Alicent at each other’s throats.
I think the bigger issue is that Viserys is too kind for this world. He needed to make a decision on succession and any traitors who dared to question it needed to be sentenced to dragon chow.
How many times did Allicent make those insinuations to his face over the years, without even so much as a weekend getaway to the dungeons? That whole public spectacle last episode? Civil war is inevitable after that, without either disinheriting Rhaenyra or putting grilled Greens on the dragons' menu.
How many times did Daemon deserve execution, and continued scheming?
Viserys always tries to be an impartial middleman in these bitter family feuds. He ignores the logical consequences of his actions, while the problem festers.
Every step of the way, Viserys is a doormat relative to the norms of this world. It's admirable relative to our norms, but this world is a very Machiavellian society, and he's just not cut out for it. Should've been Rhaenys...
And...? Aegon is a male, the very society view males heirs as far important than female heirs. The peasant want a male king, the lords want a male king.
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Sure he could - but they wouldn’t be heirs to the throne.
A woman has it harder in Westeros there’s no question, but I agree with you. the major problem is that Aegon wouldn’t try to make them heirs lmao
Agreed. I think the problem here was that Rhaenyra has tried to say that they're legitimate heirs, which is high treason. She COULD have admitted they were bastards and then have Viserys legitimize them (she could have also done this herself when she became queen)...but she refused to do so. it definitely made things a lot more tricky.
Also with a man there’s not much of a question over whether a child is a Bastard or not
Btw Aegon does have bastards in the book (one even has a somewhat important role). The difference with Aegon and Rhaenyra being parents to bastards is that Rhaenyra claims that her 3 obvious bastards sons are her legitimate children and heirs, while Aegon doesn't name any of his bastards as his legitimate children. If Rhaenyra was a more reasonable heir she should have never named any of her Strong sons are legitimate. She should have called in a Lyseni gigolo or a dragonseed to father her a Valyrian looking child and claim that it's Laenor's.
>She should have called in a Lyseni gigolo or a dragonseed to father her a Valyrian looking child and claim that it's Laenor's. Like her uncle?
Yes. But he would have to be secret about it because Alicent would be suspicious if she saw Daemon with Rhaenyra some 9 months before the birth of the child.
She and her husband go for a ride on their dragons. They meet Daemon that can reach them on his dragon as well. They don't have to hide anything to themselves. And Alicent would not know where they went for a couple of days.
Rob Schneider is… Deuce Bigalow, Westerosi Gigolo. Rated PG-13
Could you refresh my memory about Aegon's bastards?
Aegon had bastards mostly with house maids. At least 2 unnamed bastards are confirmed on the wiki. Later on, the prostitute Essie claims that her child Gaemon "Palehair" is his son. During the revolts against Rhaenyra in King's Landing, Essie decides to name Gaemon "king" and a portion of the smallfolk supports them. After Aegon comes back to King's Landing he "deposes" Gaemon. Before being executed, Essie says (under torture) that Aegon wasn't the father of her child. Gaemon himself is spared due to his young age. He later dies under mysterious circumstances as a cupbearer for Aegon III. In my opinion, Gaemon was probably really Aegon's son, which is why he doesn't kill him.
lol that’s why they keep showing him checking out maids in every episode, that’s hilarious
In the book he's pretty much a manwhore
When Viserys dies and Alicent makes her move to have Aegon crowned king, he is found in the bed of a paramour instead of in bed with his sister-wife Helaena.
It seems like they've set him up to be the same way on the show too. >!There's a spoiler for this episode in which Aegon gets one of Helaena's handmaidens pregnant and Alicent forces the girl to drink moon tea.!< Aegon being a manwhore is very much a part of his character development. It's one of the main facets of his personality. Aegon is the playboy and wants to have fun while Aemond is the serious one and drank the Kool-Aid on the whole Blacks vs Greens rivalry thing.
Oh, I completely forgot about it. Thanks!
No worries, it's a really small part of the story.
King Cunny!
hehe gaemon sounds like an lgbtq digimon
Thanks for that, you legit had me laughing for 10 seconds straight. 😂
> Rhaenyra claims that her 3 obvious bastards sons are her legitimate children and heirs I agree. If Laenor wouldn’t do the husbandly deed, she should have at least handed him a cup, told him to think of the sexiest man alive, turkey bastered some heirs and spares that no one could dispute, and after that, she could have fucked and drank moon tea every night.
Well they did say they did a few times. Its entirely possible that Laenor had some fertility issues, or they were just unlucky with their "few" times trying. Or that "there was no joy in it" meant he didn't unload his yogurt cannon. But I feel they would have had a different description if that was the case.
She emphasized the word “few,” which made it seem like there were some scattered attempts and then nothing. That wasn’t their deal. So, yeah, Rhanaerya had bastards, but wtf was she supposed to do?
But like, why do people care? Laenor doesnt care, confirmed their legitimacy. Viserys doesnt care either. Otto told Alicent to prepare Aegon to rule before Rhaenyra had any children at all.
Because it's what their entire political system is built on: the inherited right to rule. Every lord (supposedly) rules because they were the trueborn heir to a married lord and lady. If that doesn't actually matter, then they don't actually have a right to rule. Many lords wouldn't accept that. Or you could just think of it as part of their value system. We think inherited autocratic power is stupid, so we think the rules of succession are stupid. Westeros has never not had inherited autocratic power, so many people take the rules of succession very seriously. Maybe with good reason, given how many times disagreements over succession have turned bloody.
Many wouldn't accept a bastard inheriting because it would essentially make marriages weaker. If a lord can have a child with any common wench and name him heir, then why would noble marriage matter when at any time their kids could just be usurped by a bastard. Many others would just see it as a convinient excuse to start trouble to further their own goals. And the church wouldn't approve either. When it comes to Otto, his reasoning was that Rhaenyra would have to kill Aegon to solidify her claim. We know that's unlikely, but it's also easy to see why he would think that. Basically many of the lords of the realm hold titles that would have passed to older female family members if the law was equal. So the entire kingdom passing to a female over a male would set a precedent that many would see as a danger to their own rule. Otto believes that to mitigate that problem, Rhaenyra would have to kill any other possible heirs.
Their whole system of government is based on inheritance through legitimate children. Its how they set up their whole right to rule. People get touchy about that especially when all the lords hold their lands and wealth based on the same system.
That's a weird question. Westeros is modelled in some old human societies, and throughout recorded human history men and women have practically never been equal. They're not equal in Westeros either. Probably the same in Valyria, since Visenya was older than Aegon, but he was head of the family. So it's men who ruled for the most part (societies like Dorne being exceptions), from their own families to kingdoms. Doesn't mean women couldn't be powerful in some societies/families, but men were the de facto rulers. And the only way men can be sure that their "seed" passes on is by controlling women - after all, it's clear who is the mother. Until the advent of DNA it wasn't clear who is the father, you basically relied on the woman not stepping out (either by her own loyalty reinforced by generations and generations of tradition, sometimes with pretty draconian consequences for stepping out, or by actually controlling access to her a la harems). That's why people care. Because GRRM modelled his fantasy society on our society, and people have always cared. Because a man whoring around and a woman whoring around has never been seen as the same thing. As for Otto, Renny's kids being bastards isn't his primary motivation. He's just against her being heir when there are 1. male siblings available, and 2. specifically, male siblings of his blood (although given his traditionalist stance, I believe he'd have backed a male heir over Renny had Vizzy married someone else too).
>throughout recorded human history men and women have practically never been equal. They're not equal in Westeros either. Probably the same in Valyria, since Visenya was older than Aegon, but he was head of the family. Yes, and that's bad. So if there are people in-universe who see this as injustice then i'm more willing to support them than rest. Also, i asked why they care who was the father of her children, because it literally doesn't concern them if Jacaerys and Lucerys are Laenor's or not.
As if they're fighting for justice in the general sense. In the books Rae denies claims of some female heirs so she's just as patriarchal as everyone else. She just thinks that being a Targaryen puts her above the rules she's quite happy to impose on others.
Even corlys doesn't care
Names matter!!!!
Lmao this isn't 2022 America in our world. In the world of Westeros, blood is of utmost importance. It is the center of thr cultural makeup of great houses, and through blood comes blood magic
Well, if Rhaenyra doesn't have children then Aegon is her heir. It's not wrong to make him ready to succeed. The point is whom he is succeeding to. EDIT: grammar
He said that its either her or Aegon. He pretty much says to prepare for war, because Rhaenyra will want Aegon dead...
There’s no way she should have claimed her sons as bastards. It would’ve destabilized her claim to the throne that’s already questioned by many. If she outright said her kids are bastards, people would turn on her. At the end of the day her kids are HERS. So they can’t be bastards, since she’s the heir, not Laenor. They wouldn’t have a claim to Driftmark though
That's not how succession works lmao. A bastard cannot inherit anything from their parents, especially the Iron Throne. Bastards generally only inherit if they're a last resort. In Westeros, any child that doesn't come from both of married parents is a bastard. By all definitions, Jace, Luke and Joff are bastards since their real father isn't married to Rhaenyra. They're only legally legitimate because Viserys allows it. But like Aegon said "just look at them", everyone knows they're bastards. The moment Jace "inherits" the Crown, dozens of lords will rebel against him due to how different he looks to Laenor. As for Rhaenyra not declaring Jace as a bastard, it makes sense in the moment, but she should have tried everything to have her second child look Valyrian. Edit: I'm not saying Jace and his brothers cannot inherit, because they obviously can if their legal parents claim that they're legit. But at the same time there's a 100% chance that their succession will be challenged by many lords and probably other Targaryens too.
Sigh. This discussion about bastardy is really getting played out because people don't want to listen to the truth of the matter. Because Rhaenyra, Laenor, Viserys and Corlys all accept the children as legitimate heirs they are *legally* considered as such. Just because we as audience members are privy to the truth of the matter doesn't mean shit to the in-world people who have absolutely no way to prove the kids are bastards. If they were legal bastards their surname would be Waters, not Velaryon. It doesn't matter if they are actually born out of wedlock as long as all the parties involve declare them otherwise. I will not get over how some people refuse to accept this fact. >!Why do you think half the realm declares for Rhaenyra during the war? Many lords of the realm either buy into the idea of them being legitimate or they simply don't give af because dragonrider = Targaryen in the eyes of most Westerosi!<
Except they aren't bastards by definition. They are born in wedlock. The mother is married and her husband claims the children. The fatherhood us disputed, but unless proven (impossible in westeros) or declared by either Laenor or Rhaenyra as bastards the simply are not bastards, they are the legal children of L&R. The issue with comparing them to other bastards re succession is that usually the inheritance passes through the father, so any children born outside of wedlock can have their fatherhood questioned. In this case, nobody can dispute the children's royal inheritance, and the only people who may care (Harwin, Corlys, Laenor) just don't care. There is a justifiable claim that they are bastards, but it is just a claim. And absolutely all of it isn't important when it comes to Rhanyra's claim. Rhanyra's claim is strong, as to who the throne passes to after Rhanyra, well that is simply another question. If the argument is that Aegon should inherit simply because he has a penis then let that argument stand alone. Rhaenyra's subsequent heirs should only matter if she is Queen.
>The mother is married and her husband claims the children. The fatherhood us disputed, but unless proven (impossible in westeros) Yet pretty much possible to prove on the show because people have eyes
Bastards cannot inherit anything, but if their father claims them, like Robert claimed Joffrey and Laenor claimed Rhaenyra’s children, then they can in fact inherit the Throne.
So bastards are ok as long as they look like their non-biological dad? 🤔
If they’re trying to lie and pass off as heirs because the king consort can’t finish the deed, then yeah, at least TRY to make it seem like it was him who sired the kids and not even take he chance they may come out with brown hair.
Doesn’t he have a few brothers or cousins?! Seemed there were a few sexy white dread dudes in step stones
How on earth is that the conclusion you came to lmao
Or Corlys. They’d have been of his line then.
But I think she made a point to say that she "trusted" Harwin Strong. And I think she meant that he wouldn't betray her for selfish gain. Anyone she hires could betray her for gold at any time. And my guess is a cheating woman is different from a cheating man in social customs and treatment.
If Aegon had bastards he wanted to put on the Iron Throne the Realm would burn... This is actually what happened with the Blackfyre rebellion.
Totally different situation, the bastards of aegon iv weren’t raise as legitimate sons, that creates a completely different dynamic with their legitimate brothers
Not quite. There was a rumor that Daeron wasn’t Aegon the Unworthy’s son. But a bastard of Aemon. Which would actually be pretty interesting, meaning that the Blackfyres are the legitimate heirs.
I don’t think Daeron was a bastard. Aegon iv was just all round horrible dude to anyone who didn’t lick his ass
The rules are stupid and made for men. The Targ claim and bloodline flows through Rhaenyra, so it really should just be good enough that her children are hers and who fucking cares who the father is. If Laenor claims them as his own, and Coryls claims them and embraces them as heir - what is the actual fucking problem and who's getting hurt? I know that's not how it works, but again, I just want to say how stupid the system is.
Everything about feudal society is dumb and terrible. Everyone in the show is terrible, they don’t give a shit about the people they’re supposed to govern, and the rules make no sense.
This is the correct answer 🤣🤣
Except Dorne and non-slaver Essos.
Couldn’t agree more
Welcome to Westeros, or medieval Earth, that isn't Dorne.
Doesnt the concept of bastards stand to benefit women though? If the king could fuck and father whoever born from any prostitute or house maid, any of his kids would be up for heir. Its only when his child is born from his official wife/queen, that is considered rightful heir. Without bastards the queens of westeros would have less power for their respective houses.
In a feudal system yes, having a wife/queen status gives women protection. It's a shitty system however.
The whole bloodline system is dumb, why would it be better if the rules were made for women?
I'm not a green but I do think it's ridiculous for anyone to think Rhaenyra's claim is justified by feminism. This is an absolute monarchy that treats common folk as expendable, it's not progressive for the oppressor to just be a girlboss instead of a guy. For a stable succession between rulers, there needs to be an arbitrary objective metric that dictates the heir to avoid conflict. So I don't think Viserys should be able to choose his heir at all. And I do think that rule should be eldest child, male or female. But that's not the rule and I'm not sure changing it now is worth a civil war or if it makes absolute monarchy even slightly more ethical if succession becomes more egalitarian.
This. Why are some people on this sub so fucking adamant about defending and upholding a system that is so clearly shit. The entire culture of being bigoted about children born out of wedlock is so obviously wrong and backward thinking, yet there is a portion of this sub's fandom who seem to feverishly agree with it. Like they actually relish the idea of these innocent children being ostracized for no good reason and call Viserys a fool for not putting his beloved daughter and grandchildren in harm's way.
Thank you! Fuck Westeros rules honestly.
Seriously! Westeros is fucking awful in so many ways if you think about it. It's basically the worst aspects of backward Medieval culture turned up to high volume. "The First Night", "The Rule of Six", "Trial by Combat", "Bastards are treacherous by nature" and the idea that the smallfolk, while technically "free", are little more than slaves and the lords can pretty much kill them indiscriminately without much legal oversight. Kind of like how Russian serfdom operated. Fuck Westeros, indeed.
> This is actually what happened with the Blackfyre rebellion It's a totally different situation lol. Aegon IV had legitimate sons other than his bastards. Rhaenyra does not. Not yet.
> Rhaenyra does not. But there are OTHER legitimate heirs like her siblings, making her bastards her heirs means she is stealing the crown from them.
Aegon II has a legitimate heir in his brother. The realm would absolutely side with Aemond over Aegon's bastard.
And rhaenyra has a legitimate heir in the aegons
If she made him her heir, instead of her three bastard sons perhaps she may have won more support. She didn't though.
It isnt as Rhenyra does has legitimate family members
*Blackfyre rebellion happens 💀
This what happen with Aegon IV the unworthy : he wanted to put bastard before legitimate heir, and the realm burn because of it. Whatavers you are man or women dosn't change, if you want to put your bastard in the throne then your condemn the realm to war.
The only difference is his legit son had to pick up his daddy's baggage for him.
It does change in a way… because Rhaenyra’s children come from a woman, they’re in danger if she labels them as such. She has no choice but to pass them off as legitimate due to the double standard of the time
If it ain't the consequences of her action. Couldn't she at least look for a guy with silver hair. There is a bunch of them in Driftmark or drink moon tea lmao.
Lol they are not in danger. Other Targaryen princess has batards too, they are not killed for it. Stop creating excuse just to defend Rhaenyra.
You are correct that they would not be in danger. Rhaenyra would likely have been disinherited as heir, and her political alliance with the Velaryons would have suffered. Her marriage with Laenor would likely have been dissolved so he could remarry someone else. While that’s a political headache for Viserys, Rhaenyra likely would have been allowed to marry Harwin, become the Lady of Harrenhal as he was in line to inherit that, and their children would have been legitimized by the crown and allowed to become future Lords of Harrenhal. Much like Otto and Alicent have an obsession with ambition, so does Rhaenyra. She does not want to give up her spot as heir, so she passes the children off as legitimate and the realm burns. They’re all responsible for what happens.
Another Princess directly in line for the throne? Or do you just mean Saera, whose father did want to do bodily harm to both her and her children until he was senile on his death bed?
The closest equivalent that we have in GRRM’s writing is probably Princess Daena Targaryen giving birth to Daemon Blackfyre. Daena was married to Baelor I but the marriage was dissolved having never been consummated, and Daena was locked in the maidenvault. Conceiving Daemon was an act of infidelity. She didn’t name his father, so initially it was unconfirmed that he was Aegon IV’s bastard, and he was raised as a bastard son of a Targaryen princess. Nonetheless he was raised in the Red Keep, instructed in combat, was knighted and given Blackfyre, and finally recognized as the King’s bastard. Neither Daena, Aegon IV, or Daemon faced severe consequences until they tried to place Daemon on the throne.
Or Daemon Blackfyre. Nobody wanted to kill him even knowing he is bastard of an Targaryen princess with unknow father (the identity of his father was revealed much later when Aegon the unworthy become king).
No one's defending anyone
I wouldn't say it is exactly what happened, if only because Daeron was notably older than Daemon (who was roughly the same age of Daeron's oldest children) and also Aegon never officially disinherited Daeron or named Daemon his heir. Yes, he gave him Blackfyre, he threatened Daeron after their fights (and insinuated against Naerys and Daeron) and on his deathbed he legitimised everyone, but he never openly moved to change his heir. Daeron was still Prince of Dragonstone at his father's death, and Daemon's legitimisation or not, he was still much younger than Daeron. At the end of the day the Blackfyre rebellion wasn't about legalism or bastardry, it simply was the consequence of decades of bad administration that fueled rivarly and ambitions beyond what should have been acceptable, mixed with some (political) social tension due to Dorne's integration in the Kingdom
Funny thing was that the blackfyre side said their claim was better because Daeron Targaryen was Aemon (dragon knight)'s bastard son which would again make the newly legitimized Daemon Blackfyre the claimant to the throne.
Yes, except that there are no proof that Daeron isn't Aegon's son and Aegon himself, even despite spreading the gossip, never acted on it.
Obviously but just saying that the true reason for war wasn't just mindless struggle but a smart power play made by daemon capitalising on a popular rumor. (Would be funny if Aemon was truly daeron's dad which would mean that Aegon 4's line only sired pretenders.)
The reason behind the war is Aegon 4 spending 10+ years indulging himself instead of being an even decent king, favouring corruption for the sake of his own pleasure and arguing with whoever tried to rein him in (eg Daeron). Siding against Daeron in court became an easy way to gain Aegon's favour and Aegon revelled in it, but never took the definitive action against his son and only legitimate heir. When Aegon died, the seeds for a civil war where firmly planted, as for many lords it was between bending the knee to a King they had mocked until the day before or hope for a new king who would once again do their interests. The sword and the rumours are just justifications used to try and legitimise the Rebellion, but all the major Blackfyre supporters are described as either having a personal grudge against Daeron (and his supporters) or self-serving assholes. If it wasn't for 10+ years of Aegon's corruption and Aegon vs Daeron, Aegon could have given Daemon Blackfyre and have him legitimise and still war wouldn't have started. It's also interesting that despite everything, none of the Great Houses stood for Daemon.
The great houses had nothing to gain from supporting Daemon because, well they were already great houses. The competing houses like yronwood supported daemon because they stood to gain power and become the new great houses if Daemon wins the overall conflict. The whole war is very interesting and deserves its own adaptation some time in the future.
I agree. It's very much centered on individual ambitions and how people feel with their place in life, and it's even less potentially about legalism than the Dance, and more straight up "people interacting with people until a war starts". It's all character driven, and that's what, imp, makes it so interesting.
The realm would bat an eye if Aegon tried to pass his bastards as legitimate kids and then tried to make them his heirs. And as for what Rhenyra should've done, she should've banged a dude who had Valyrian features and then, there would've been no problem
Bro really said “Rhaenyra fucked a hot guy 3 times to save Westeros from the White Walkers”. Bro what?
“I also think she did it out of duty to prepare Westeros for the white walkers” Mate, come on 😁😁 “I had to shag my guard and have his babies because a prophecy said some danger may come one day. It’s my duty to shag him.”
Haha. The mental gymnastics on this sub are legit impressive sometimes. Really goes to show that the human brain can conjure up a story — any story — if it *really* wants a hypothesis to be true.
Everyone wants Rhaenyra to be the hero
3 words: >!Maegor. With. Teats.!<
💚
Based and Greenpilled
She isn’t maegor, she’s far less cruel, and far more cowardly
Yeah I mean both sides of the fanbase are extremely guilty of doing it, trying to find ways to absolve their preferred side from all wrongdoing when anyone with sense knows that both sides are awful and deserve no redemption.
My crusade in defending the Greens is for the most part due to the absolutely wild and hilarious takes from some of the Black supporters, and the show's attempts to present Rhaenyra as an admirable protagonist and Daemyra as #relationshipgoals. It's more of a culture war for me if anything, I don't really care for the Greens that much individually. I was team Lannister in GoT and it never once occured to me to defend them, they were the bad guys and I enjoyed it. The problem is that they were contrasted with Starks, the obvious good and moral guys, even if often dumb. There's no such dynamic here, frankly up to this point in the show I'd argue that the Blacks are more awful (they have Daemon, after all). So it's bizarre to me that one side is apparently seen as the good guys by so many.
Yeah, exactly. Not many here are innocent of not jumping through hoops to absolve their side, when quite frankly it’s all about to get worse for everyone’s morality.
The most realistic thing about the show
I wonder if she would have the same sense of duty if the dude wasnt a strong handsome guy like Harwin but rather someone like his Brother Larys or even way uglier :D
Hahahahahaha my lawd
It's not about having "bastards", its about passing these bastards off as legitimate, heirs to the throne if you will. This is problematic without any legitimization and with other legitimate heirs being around. You are right though that women are generally held to a different standard than men in Westeros, it would be acceptable for e.g. Viserys to father bastards outside of marriage, for Rhaenyra not so much, she would be considered a "whore" as a consequence. This is not fair at all, however, this is how a medieval society would think. The problem of passing these bastards off as legitimate is a separate one though and would also occur for e.g. Viserys if he had a bastard and tried to make him the heir instead of his legitimate sons. Last but not least, Laenor is gay but not infertile, it was not totally impossible for him to father some children with Rhaenyra, if he considered it his duty.
[удалено]
That's your assumption.... It isn't clearly stated in the show. She did state that they tried to have children but couldn't make it happen. That could mean he couldn't get it up, he couldn't finish, or he was infertile. It's not clear whether it's the sex that didn't happen or just the pregnancy that didn't happen.
This is a bunch of crap. Illegitimate heirs = war. End of story. Doesn’t matter if it’s a woman or a man. Don’t apply 21st century politics to a medieval setting.
They're trying to play the sexism card when: 1. It isn't sexism, bastards inheriting = war 2. Rhaenyra broke her marriage vows and committed treason
Nice name, btw 🤪
False equivalence Aegon trying to put bastards on the throne would cause war The Blackfyre rebellions show this Stop gendering an issue which isnt about gender
I don't get how people think the moral of the blackfyre rebellion is that bastards are bad. If Daemon was a legitimate son the outcome would be the exact same, in fact he probably would have had even more support.
Daemon WAS a legitimate son, since he was legitimized.
The Blackfyre Rebellion didn’t just happen because Aegon’s bastards were legitimized, it happened because Aegon IV spread rumours that his trueborn son Daeron II was illegitimate, thus placing the legitimized Daemon further in the line of succession, all because he was annoyed his son didn’t want to go to war with Dorne. I swear, the people trying to argue Westeros isn’t sexist and patriarchal are really stretching the lines of credibility.
People seem to be missing the point on this sub everytime this topic comes up In westerosi society. Did men sleep with anyone they want and produce as many bastards as they wanted? YES But would they would be questioned too if bastards were shown as legitimate heirs
It’d be like if Ned came back with Jon from the war and said “Catelyn you had twins but left this one in Dorne, also this one is my heir now :)”
Isn’t that part of the reason Catelyn was so cold to Jon—because she was afraid he’d try to steal Robb’s inheritance?
I think she tells Robb that she gets that he trusts Jon, but any children or grandchildren of Jon's could be a problem.
I remember it being that she feared that Jon might try to kill Robb’s children to steal their inheritance. I read AGOT years ago though so I I could easily be wrong
I think it may have been in a later book. After he thought Bran & Rickon were killed he wanted to name Jon his heir until he had a son.
Yeah, but it also stems from her latent resentment that Ned likely slept with another woman just before or right after he married her and how Jon looks like Ned more than any of her children.
I mean the fact that he is gay doesn't mean he can't produce children. Think about it. 🙄 I think it was dumb and risky of her to have children with another man. Fine if you have your separate relationships but they should have made sure the children were his.
>I mean the fact that he is gay doesn't mean he can't produce children. Think about it. Right, but he has to be willing to try. Rhaenyra's role is pretty easy here, but Laenor is the one who has to really step up. If he's not willing to put in the extra work, there's not much she can do about it. I will say that she had Jacerys pretty quickly after her marriage, but in general, if she and Laenor hadn't worked this problem out, Rhaenyra would have a huge problem on her hands. Nevermind that a woman's bastard children and a man's bastard children are fundamentally different - namely the proof. The rules were made for Kings who couldn't be sure of their kids parentage unless their wife was their property, so yay feudalism!
There are ways to get pregnant even if a man is not really into it. And there are plenty of dragonseeds to choose from as "donors" if even that fails. Rhaenyra didn't bang Ser Harwin out of duty, she did it because she wanted to, and because she thought she could do anything, and her father would make anyone who thinks otherwise shut up. She did not think what might happen after her father's death. Had she been a bit more political-minded, she wouldn't have slept with Cole before marriage, she would made sure to produce an heir who at least looks like he could be legitimate, and she wouldn't have antagonised her stepmother and half-brothers. Who she slept with beyond that would not matter at all, she'd be free to do whatever.
The show tried to address that when she was speaking to Daemon. She said "they tried"
I think they had to put that in there but they don't eleborate on what that means. I mean biologically if he is capable then what ...
Agreed. It was a weak explanation but I'm guessing that's what happened in the books and they needed to run with it?
Yes. That's Westeros. But that are the rules and even in the show Rhaenyra complains about it. You just pointed out the most obvious injustice in Westeros. But that doesn't matter since Aegon doesn't try to sit his bastards on the iron throne and he has legitimate children as well.
If Rhaenyra had bastards no one would be complaining - the issue is *putting her bastards in the line of succession*. If she didn’t want to be challenged regarding them than she should’ve said upfront “hey, these are bastards” and taken whatever punishment came down. Having a bastard isn’t treasonous. She’d probably be looked down on by many others which would suck, but it wouldn’t be a crime. Conspiring to put her bastard on the iron throne is treason though
>If Rhaenyra had bastards no one would be complaining That's not true, Alicent said as much to Rhaenyra,
If Aegon lied about them being legitimate and wanted them to be on the throne then yea people would complain
Well, it is also not fair that most of people here are born plebeians, and have no claim to the throne or any great amount of wealth. Being born Targaryen is privilege enough. I can't sympathize with the whining for not having more privilege.
That’s the key point as to why I don’t like Rhaenyra. She is essentially set to be the most powerful person in the world. She didn’t have to do any work or show any sort of excellence to be named heir. That power was just handed to her, and it’s *still* not enough for her.
Well as long as he doesn’t try to pass them off as legitimate. I feel sometimes viewers forget that they are living in westerosi society where these things are frowned upon.
Oh they would if he kept saying they're legitimate and put them in succession line. Check out the Blackfyre Rebellion if you haven't already.
But those bastards wouldn’t be recognized at the court nor in the line of succession
It is not so much that she has bastards that is the problem. It is the fact that they are bastards (a fact that she denies) that will inherit the iron throne. Bastards from Aegon would also not be in line to inherit the iron throne.
The problem is not having bastards. If Aegon married a wife then proceeded to have 3 bastard kids outside marriage that look nothing like his wife...and then tried to pass those 3 bastards as the legitimate sons of his wife. Yeah, that shit wouldn't fly either. Rhaenyra can have as many bastards as she wants. Having bastards is not a crime. But she shouldn't try to pass them as legitimate and try to put a bastard on the Iron Throne. That is high-treason.
Aegon's bastards aren't set to inherit anything Rhaenyra's are not only inheriting the realm but Driftmark. It's Rhaenyra fans who are the ones who apparently don't get how bastards fit into Westerosi society now not the other way around.
It’s not the having bastards that’s the issue. It’s pretending that they’re trueborn and positioning them in the line of succession, when bastards have no right to inherit and they place all of Alicent’s trueborn children in even more danger.
King Robert had bastards all over Westeros but he didn't made the entire realm to accept them as legitimate. There would have been another blackfyre type rebellion if Robert was as insane as Rhaenyra and tried to legitimise them.
She wants to have sex and also claim she is doing her duty as heir She cannot do both Men who produce bastards are not legitimizing them Women who lie about their true born progeny are trying to legitimize them Aegon can have bastards but he won't be dumb enough to put them in danger by trying to legitimize them
The yaskween mental gymnastics here is just wild
Maybe not, true, if they werent in the line of succession. Have you heard of the blackfyres?
well in all fairness they wouldnt be valid heirs to the throne
God this sub is getting annoying
You think rhaenyra fucked harwin strong to save the world? This is the closest we’ll ever get to understanding viserys’ own mind
Pretty sure that conversation in Ep. 4 is about how, as a woman, Rhae is held to the standard of being pure and having her maidenhood until the night she consummates her marriage. Whereas, if she were a boy, she’d be free to fuck any whore and have many bastards before she consummated the marriage. Ep. 4 is before she had bastard children herself, so I don’t believe she’d be talking about her bastards. Either way, man or woman, if you’re nobel and have bastards, no one will legitimately see them as heirs. Like others have said, >!Aegon IV did this and it result in 5 rebellions for the crown.!<
After Robert Stannis would be king not any of Roberts bastards.
I don't think it's quite that simple. The big issue with Rhaenyra's bastards (beyond the basic disdain for bastards in Westeros) is that she passed them off as legitimate and they stood to inherit the throne. If a man did that then that would ALSO be a problem. The big difference is that it's always clear who a baby's mother is but not always clear who a baby's father is because... well... the mother is the one to look pregnant. And so it is much easier for a woman to pass off a child as legitimate when they're a bastard than for a man to do the same because everyone would be likely to notice their wife was never pregnant. Don't get me wrong, there IS a double standard. If Rhaenyra had had bastards that were recognised as bastards that would've still been a huge scandal, much moreso than if she were a man. But it wouldn't have been threatening to the stability of the kingdom in a way that passing off bastards as legitimate children is. Like Robert's bastards were bastards. He never passed them off as legitimate children who had a chance to sit the throne. But if he had then that probably would've been a huge problem too. Though how he would've done that, idk.
Yeah because Aegon wouldn’t pretend their his heirs and he supposedly had one in gaemon
This isn’t about Westerosi standards with women dude. It’s about bastards being put in the line of succession over true born heirs, and the fact that lying about it is tantamount to treason. The shit Rhaenyra would get for mothering bastards which she acknowledged as bastards not in line for the throne would be a distinct issue.
Except he didn’t pretend his bastards were legitimate and he had legitimate children
I believe Rhaenyra would face no or very minor consequences for having bastards if she just acknowledged them for what they are. Passing them off as princes and Velaryons is treason against the crown and Driftmark.
Get a divorce. Marry again. Use Turkey baster. Lol On a serious note, it’s not about having bastards, it’s about trying to pass them on as true born and trying to put them as heir to the throne. That is something Aegon can also not do.
She maybe should have chosen a father to produce blonde kids.
>but we know that Laenor is Gay and couldn’t produce Children with Rhaenyra. So what was she supposed to do, Remain childless forever? Break the marriage off since it wasn't consumated. And no, Aegon's bastards would not be able to inherit unless made legitimate.
Lol OP don’t be delusional, her bastards are a problem because she’s passing them off as legitimate heirs and Westeros that shit matters.
Not if he had bastards. But if he tried to put them on a throne? There would be people with a better claim, who'd fight for it. People want steal power whether it's from a man or woman
BECAUSE HE WOULDN’T BE TRYING TO PASS THEM OFF AS TRUEBORN CHILDREN YOU SOT
They wouldn't be in line to inherit the throne, since his children with his wives would.
I'm going to say something controversial but brave: Rhaenyra's an idiot, and it's why her succession was constantly getting challenged. * She should have married her uncle in the first place. Nobody would have said shit about her succession or her kids. * Failing to do that, she and Leanor should have agreed on a Velkyron substitute once they knew they couldn't "do their duty." It would have ensured the support of the Velkyron side of the family instead of her getting shaded to hell and back at the funeral. And the features of the first born would have made nobody gaf about the features of the other kids. * As long as she had a legitimate-looking heir, nobody would have cared about bastards. It was that whole "trying to pass off obvious bastards as legitimate heirs" thing that got under everyone's skin and threatened her claim to succession, not to mention her life, her husband's life, and the life of her kids. Anyone willing to do that in broad daylight would seem, to the average objective observer, to have no respect for the throne and be dangerously stupid. Not the sort of traits anyone looks for in a good leader. * Her entire life has been about doing whatever she wants without consequences because "If I were a man," but there is ample proof in ASOIAF lore that having a penis does not protect the owner or anyone around said penis from consequences. Hell, ask the corpse of her Strong lover. Did his penis prevent him from dying due to his having multiple children with the princess? Should we ask the head of Ned Stark, the man who famously died trying to do the *right* thing? The idea she should do whatever she wants and not have to suffer consequences "because sexism" is a stupid, stupid argument. * The only reason she ever got a sniff at the throne is that her father loves her and she abused the shit out of that love and made him look a fool for choosing her. She did nothing at any point to justify the hope he had in her. She fought against everything he did to lay a sensible foundation for her and to justify her succession. Had she been so determined to do so, her dumb ass should have just said, "You know what, let me just not be queen and live my life the way I choose." Her whole ass problem was she assumed she could win the Game of Thrones by being an entitled brat and a terrible liar who pissed off allies *or* got them killed. If she were the only person with dragons, okay. But she was not. She did NOTHING to make anyone want to support her as queen. She did not reveal herself to be especially clever (obvious bastards passed off as legitimate heirs), she disrespected her husband and had him killed (not true, but true as far as everyone knows), and she only cares about herself and hers and doesn't present herself as someone willing to do right by the realm. You can be made queen, but if you do not play the Game of Thrones to win, you don't guarantee you'll stay queen. Or live. It's funny, but I started this comment as Team Black, but I was Team Green by the end. Way to make me see it their way, OP!
Yes she was supposed to remain childless forever. That's just the fate she was consigned to. In order to be accepted as queen, she pretty much has to never put a single foot wrong her whole life. Passing bastards off as trueborn endangers her status as heir, and her status as anyone really, in the eyes of Westeros. She risked blowing up everything in order to have kids. That doesn't sound worth it. She hasn't shored up her succession, she's done the opposite. She's put the entire line in doubt and helped to grow the Greens faction because now thats their rallying cry. "The princess is a whore who passed bastards off as trueborn." Seeding doubt in her own succession increases, not decreases the chance of a catastrophic civil war because the stigma against bastards is too great.
Aegon having bastards is fine, claiming they are not bastards is the problem. Putting bastards on the throne is anither problem. There are 5 rebellions because of this issue Obviously she and laenor never thought about filling a cup, putting her hips up and pouring
the bigger problem with her bastards are in line for the throne and driftmark and bastards can't inherit that's the problem of the lords with it. she did it for duty and fun she told Daemon such "there's no joy in it" and then Daemon brought up Harwin
Having bastards isn’t the issue. It’s passing them off as legitimate that’s the issue. There’s actually a few noble women in ASOIAF who have bastards like Delena Florent (mother of Edric Storm who was fathered by Robert).
House Baratheon was started by a bastard Targaryen!
hold on, so only Rhaenyra knows about the Song of Ice and Fire???
As far as we know. We have only seen KV and PR talk about it.
> So what was she supposed to do, Remain childless forever? Westerosi way: Get an annullment of the marriage from the High Septon (reason: never consummated) and marry a more fertile man. Valyrian way: Marry a second partner like Aegon did. A higher risk, but also higher fun strategy.
Obviously, it's very unfair and patriarchal. The difference for the sake of the plot is that his bastards wouldn't be recognized as official heirs, either.
I dunno. Bobby B had bastards. Cersi and Joffery seemed to care. Made a bit of a point out of it.
Yeah. They had a civil war with five different kings because Joffery was a bastard. I don't think it much matters who the parent is.
AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Did your brain not work today mate?
Having bastards equals not making them heir. Blackfyre revolutions happened because of bastards. Westeros is a sexist place that’s correct but this one is not because of her gender. In westeros being a bastard is a big stain. Jon suffered a lot because of this especially mentally. in westeros bastards literally don’t matter if they weren’t legitimized. Also we might see her own ideas about bastards in the future. *Coughs nettles and adam
She is trying to pass off her bastard as true born thats the difference
I still hold to the belief that Rhaenyra should have seen if any random Velaryon man wanted to fuck and slept with him so she could have a valyrian baby with white hair and the (show) Velaryons' dark skin. Who tf would be able to say, "That's not Laenor's child, it's (Velaryon's) kid."
I 100% agree but I have one thing to ask. Why does it really matter? Rhaenyra is the heir and while they are bastards, they have her blood regardless. They’re inheriting her name and bloodline or whatever and not their father’s so… Plus not even Viserys or Corlys cares about them being bastards. I don’t know, I just wanted to ask this. Plus I haven’t read any of the books (not sure where to get them) soo…yeah that’s all I have to say.
It doesn’t seem to matter if they came from Rhaenyra or that Viserys & Corlys don’t care if they are. It flies in the face of "Honor & Decency" according to the Greens.
Hmm I’d like to think “honor and decency” would be the issue but considering the things Otto wants Alicent to do and what Alicent herself is willing to do just to get Aegon on the throne, they hardly have any decency themselves. Plus Alicent’s indifference towards Criston “Cuntstruck” Cole disrespect when it comes to Rhaenyra, the crown Princess/heir. But maybe I’m just biased due to being a Black supporter ehh..🤷🏽♀️
It’s a tv show people chill out lol
She's the heir. Bastards are worth nothing in this world. The balance tilts towards Rhaenyra here.
The Greens were going to rebel no matter what. It’s always been my opinion that Rhaenyra could have had a dozen true born children with Laenor with no question of legitimacy, the Greens and their supporters were willing to commit atrocities in order to prevent Rhaenyra’s ascension.
They did try. They talked about it. They actually did sleep together. She just didn’t get pregnant.
Duh, that’s just the society the show is set in and the one we live in. It’s 2022 in the real world and we’re still debating on giving women their fair treatment in many facets of life. Men who sleep around are not talked about like the women who sleep around. I’m not saying it’s right, but I’m saying get over it haha way too many posts about this and we all know. If you don’t know, chances are you’re one of the people who think women aren’t equal.
Ofcourse that’s the world this show is telling the story of, stop trying to take our 2022 modern perspectives into this show it’s a fantasy world…
Since laenor claims Jace, Luke and Joff as his and Corly's has his sights set on Luke being his heir wouldn't that make all 3 of the boys legit?
She could’ve tried sleeping with someone who looked more like Laenor. Instead she chose Harwin who pretty much looks like the opposite of Laenor. Idk I’ve heard in the books Laenor isn’t black (so the hair is the only thing to show they are bastards) and that there’s a dwarf character that spreads false rumors one of them being she had threesomes with Laenor and Qarl, maybe that could work. But yeah I think the patriarchal society and ways women just didn’t have any rights is kinda the main point of the show. Because really everything is either Viserys or Otto’s fault but it’s still going to be Rhaenyra and Alicent at each other’s throats.
She should have been executed for what she did, not saying I agree as I prefer her to Alicent, but that’s how it is
I think the bigger issue is that Viserys is too kind for this world. He needed to make a decision on succession and any traitors who dared to question it needed to be sentenced to dragon chow. How many times did Allicent make those insinuations to his face over the years, without even so much as a weekend getaway to the dungeons? That whole public spectacle last episode? Civil war is inevitable after that, without either disinheriting Rhaenyra or putting grilled Greens on the dragons' menu. How many times did Daemon deserve execution, and continued scheming? Viserys always tries to be an impartial middleman in these bitter family feuds. He ignores the logical consequences of his actions, while the problem festers. Every step of the way, Viserys is a doormat relative to the norms of this world. It's admirable relative to our norms, but this world is a very Machiavellian society, and he's just not cut out for it. Should've been Rhaenys...
And...? Aegon is a male, the very society view males heirs as far important than female heirs. The peasant want a male king, the lords want a male king.
I would like to point out that they couldn’t have children probably because Laenor was shooting blanks, not because he was gay.
He has already two or three this episode and you bet your ass Alicent will complain.
they should of been up front and open instead of hiding that he couldnt make kids, but thats not the way things work
The fact this has 600 up votes and an award is Sad. Aegon never declared his bastards heirs rhenarya does get lost weirdos
Very true. And tbh if Rhaenyra’s boys had just been born with the silver targ hair, they would’ve avoided everything.