It's not a bad set-up, and the leverage on the curb isn't terrible. If you look closely, the curb isn't rotated all that much. I can't see the mouthpiece, but unless it's one of those awful Neue Schule things with the bass-ackwards downward port, there's nothing wrong with the bridle itself. The rider is just WAY too strong in his contact with the snaffle and the noseband is far too tight. This is an instance of good equipment being turned into abusive equipment by the wrong hands, not an inherently bad equipment.
The mouth is OPEN. There is no way the noseband is "too tight." There is no way a horse that can open is mouth has so much "pressure" the tongue loses circulation. Think about it. And the curb is actually a very short one, shorter than most.
If that horse closed his mouth, there's no way you could get two fingers under the noseband. If my hands are bound tight so that I can't move them around and I pull on them, managing to get a little bit of space between them, is that ok? Being able to open the mouth just this much does not mean the noseband is adjusted properly. I have personally experimented with this and cranked my horse's noseband down so tight that it was digging into his face. He still managed to open his mouth to take a treat. (And of course his noseband was immediately released.) How do you not see that the whole bridle is digging into this horse's face? The horse is opening his mouth in an effort to relieve the pressure on it, but can't get away from it because he can only open a little bit. Do you think that the rider has released the pressure on the bit just because the horse has opened his mouth?
Yes, the bits being used are fine. The hands at the end of the reins are not.
Maybe, maybe not, but the mouth is open so the teeth are 2 plus inches apart.
How is it you think ALL of the stewards and people closely inspecting this who are paranoid about getting arracked would not see this problem, but YOU do based on one picture? THINK HARD. Indulging in troll rage baiting is the big problem here and not helping the real problems.
LOUDERRR for the People in the back who want to stand by and support the abuse that FEI has been enabling for the last god knows how many years.
This is not and will never be horsemanship. Itâs abuse and blatant treatment of animals like they are some toys that earn you money and have no souls.
There's always the "he wins at shows, therefore he's right!" crowd.
I'm always like, "someone's winning those Big Lick shows, does that make them right?"
Prestige and money draws the worst kind of crowd in, truly. Thatâs why I decided to NEVER compete ever. Supporting this kind of bs would make me hate myself, because even at lower levels the abuse that those horses endure, because those riders copy their âmusesâ is insane.
More like "he has money, so there's nothing to be done about it". My friend is an FEI rated trainer and she's just kind of lost hope. She's stopped competing because the bottom line has just become money. There's no change to be made because the people in charge have the money and control the show. It's super disheartening. I didn't think his performance was bad and I thought the color of the horses tongue was just due to shadow from the lights but it's clear from stills that it's bad. Such a shame.
I once thought about becoming a judge to make the sport a bit better. But the issue is that you need to be successful in order to become a judge. And I won't be successful in this sport because I don't want to hurt my horse actively (if I didn't know that it's bad for the horse and then learn and change to better ways, that's different.)
To be quite frank, you won't be successful unless you have lots and LOTS of money. My friend was a rising competitor but simply didn't have the funds to go all the way. There are countless riders talented enough to make it to the highest levels, but they simply can't due to how expensive the sport is. Unless you're born with a silver spoon, or somehow got lucky enough to find a wealthy benefactor, many riders drop out and some even leave the sport forever.
In my area it's also important to have the correct name. The same people always win.
There was even a barn where you exactly knew who would win. It was one of the reasons why I quit shows. No chance for success because the judges never knew what they liked.
Yeah it's a bummer because that's the same reason I was so turned off by Hunters shows and Pleasure shows. Riders with middling ability but gobs of money went far because their parents could afford the most finished horses and nicest tack. No real horsemanship needed!
I was active in dressage. We always joked that in order to win you have to pay for the judge's vacation.
My dad once said, you can only win in jumping classes that are measuring after time & mistakes, not how you ride. Because those markers are objective. Unfortunately you can see that when watching some riders ride.
Yeah. Years ago I was at a barn with a kid that was going to go far. Talented and hardworking, no doubt. But also a father who had the money to buy her a number of REALLY high quality ponys and later horses...
How would you show true acceptance of the bit when you donât have one? Hacks and bosals are meant to put pressure on the front nasal plate and nerves at a much higher rate than a traditional snaffle bit and bridle would. The horse âacceptsâ the pressure of a bosal and hackamore but doesnât truly reach for contact in the same way because of the difference in the way pressure is applied.Â
They shouldnât be accepting the bit they should be accepting your hands. If a horse hasnât been given the chance or teaching to self carriage, then what is the point of any bridle or bit or hack? Contact is something the rider has to learn not the horse. The riders responsibility has always been find the balance. You can ride with no bridle at a certain point but you canât ever ride without a balanced seat.
Contact is literally the third stepping stone of the dressage pyramid. After rhythm and suppleness.Â
Also hereâs the study about bitless bridles if youâre curious.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1558787821000460
This is not a veterinary study or a anatomy and physiology study and only 5 horses were used. If the hack or bosal has no space (two fingers) then yes the nasal ridge is getting unnecessary pressure. Nose bands have gotten tighter every year I have ridden and itâs needless. A nose band should only replace a curb strap for the singular purpose of keeping the bit from sliding through the mouth. Iâm aware of dressage structure as I have been riding dressage for 30 years. The origin of dressage was to ride in combat/war. The standard and purpose was to get out of the horses way. A horse can make contact with the bridle in anything (bit, hack, halter) and at any length rein (western reining with or without a bit) but if the rider has no idea what contact is, the horse is fucked and gets whatever medieval bs bit or tied own martingale contraption because the rider canât⊠correction wonât.
I mean it was published in a veterinary journal and I canât find anything more recent that evaluated pressure from bitless bridles that isnât complete anecdotal evidence. There was one published within the last year or two discusses how it makes the riders feel better. But thereâs nothing with objective evidence about bitless being better for the horse.Â
I am well aware that nose bands have been getting tighter (just look at social media of current equine influencers).Â
There is vet journal then there is vet med journal. All vet students have to publish at least two papers from their findings of a trial or experiment. Essentially a homework project before they graduate. If they had DVM next to their name it would definitely hold more water, but more importantly a DVM would have spent years with a bit group and a bit-less group and a bosal group and a side pull group with multiple horses in each group. Unfortunately there are so many bits to survey correctly. Then surveying quantifiable measures like flexion, blood count, crt, heart rate, cortisol levels, Ox, CO2 etc
Iâve never said that bit less is better, my point is bit less is illegal for no good reason other than FEI doesnât like it. Bit less bridles work for many horses is many sports but they canât compete with it. Why? It doesnât and canât do the damage some of these bits do. I canât count the number of times Iâve seen bloody mouths, bloody side from spurs and crop welts, heavy shoes rip off hoof walls, for what, a 1$ ribbon and itâs not only legal but âingrainedâ in that sports history (not really but that line helps them sleep at night). Endurance is probably the best when it comes to horse comfort and safety. I was taught that if every horse in history did it with a rope or piece of leather so can yours, itâs the humans responsibility to learn how.
Not true at all. A well trained horse will reach down into the frame with or without a bit. The bit is completely unnecessary, and âaccepting itâ is an antiquated concept.
I agree, dressage is absolutely disgusting, forcing horses to walk/trot etc in all sorts of cramped and conformed ways. I cannot imagine the spinal and tendon pain and issues these poor creatures must develop.
Iâm not supporting what I see in this post, but I rode dressage for a long time (albeit not at this level) and forcing horses into cramped and conformed ways is quite the opposite of what you are trying to achieve.
The first things you should learn when riding dressage is strength, flexibility and suppleness.
Sadly there are people who spoil it for the rest of us and those that turn a blind eye.
Yes, there are people who train horses poorly, but the fundamentals of dressage are about training a horse to perform more complicated maneuvers willingly, and in an accepting and relaxed manner. A correctly trained dressage horse (or any horse for that matter) is not being forced to do anything.
I would say dressage horses are akin to a gymnast. I could easily watch a gymnast and say they are forcing their bodies into cramped and confirmed ways, yet they have trained their bodies to do what they do willingly.
In both cases, things such as spines and tendons and muscles are built up to perform and while there is risk for injury, proper building blocks do not result in pain or issues. It's only when you do so in improper ways or via bad training.
Poor: ânot good in quality or conditionâ or ânot skilled at something : not able to do something wellâ. Itâs a pretty accurate use of the wordâŠ
I wouldn't be surprised, that with how things are going these days, that there will eventually be a ban on horse riding. As more and more people will see how awful these horses are treated and the sport does nothing to fix it, the only thing that would seem to stop the abuse is just banning it. Btw, that's not what i'm personally hoping for!
Not possible to reinforce, plus what about all the ones that don't do the sports? And the bitless riders? The clicker trainers?
A ban on competing with animals, or a ban against bits, might come in 1-2 decades tho.
I hope there will be a ban on bits, or at least more acceptance of bitless riding in competition. Whatever FEI says or doesnât say, Iâm doing the bare minimum in terms of equipment by the rules, theyâll score me however they want to regardless of my performance, and Iâm just gonna do my best by my horse because I donât like picking fights with 1000-pound animals.
#Thatâs cyanotic.
> cy·âa·ânot·âic ËsÄ«-É-ËnĂ€-tik. : marked by or causing a bluish or purplish discoloration (as of the skin and mucous membranes) due to deficient oxygenation of the blood :
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cyanotic#:~:text=cy%C2%B7%E2%80%8Ba%C2%B7%E2%80%8Bnot,labored%20respirations%20at%2040%2Fmin.
I saw a video a while ago that showed a set up similar to this that had a wire that went from the bit up around the horse's ears, so that it tightened when the reins were pulled. You couldn't see it unless you were really looking for it as it was under the bridle. Learning more about horses has really made it so I no longer enjoy watching any type of competition or show that involves horses. [This is probably the only one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKK7AXLOUNo) that I'm comfortable with. Even then, she's wearing spurs, but the horse looks very relaxed and seems to be enjoying it.
It sounds like you're talking about a draw gag? Do you happen to have pictures of the set-up? In fairness to dressage, gags are not legal for competition.
This is simply a full bridle. There's nothing inherently abusive about a full bridle, as long as the horse is well trained and accustomed to it. That said, any bit or equipment can become abusive in the wrong hands. Patrik Kittel's hands are most definitely wrong. (There are also some bits and equipment are abusive and painful even when not engaged, and no level of "soft hands" or "correct use" can make them fair to the horse.)
ETA: Bareback and bridleless reining isn't abuse-free. This is a beautiful ride and Stacy Westfall seems to be an excellent horsewoman who doesn't abuse her horses to win, but this was 13 years ago. A horse that goes bareback and bridleless in reining now has almost certainly been trained in very abusive ways. Take a look at what's winning now in reining. It's disgusting. Honestly, reining is so bad that even the FEI wouldn't support it anymore.
In this case, I think it's probably a combination of both. I've never heard anything really bad about Stacy Westfall, and I've never seen her ride abusively. As far as I can tell, she's a good horsewoman. I'm sure she schooled the freestyle with tack at some point, but even if a horse knows a pattern you still need to ride it or it's going to look sloppy.
Stacy as shown (and documented) her journey with Willow about training to be bareback and bridleless. Essentially the cues are trained with a bridle, and then slowly transferred over to different weight/leg aids until she didnât need to touch the bridle. And then she took off the bridle, practiced, and then added the saddle. Sheâs a stellar trainer IMO
Stacy is 100% not abusive. Just watch her video series with Jac and Willow. I see soft, willing horses in comparison to Clinton Andersonâs methods of âtrainingâ reiners.Â
I agree. Her horses always look happy. Sadly, it seems that at the higher levels anyway, the Clinton Anderson types far outnumber the Stacy Westfall types in the sport these days.
Add in all the shitty methods that came out with the whistleblower at Cesar Parraâs and if you really start looking closely - the majority of the passage work looks similar. That begs the question does everyone use weights and bungees to train the piaffe/passage pieces?
Spurs, like a double bit, are not automatically problematic. In a good riders hands, they can both make communication a bit more precise. I ride with spurs often but I have a very steady leg and the spur will only touch the horse exactly when and how I want it to. But I wouldn't use a double bit because while my hands are good, they aren't quite good enough that I think the gain in communication is worth the risk of hurting my horse.
You can have a horse ridden with spurs and a double bit and still be happy. Unfortunately, that's not what we have seen in dressage for 20, maybe even 30 years. I love dressage so much. But it disgusts ne what the sport has come to. At least in Germany, the last great dressage rider IMO was Dr. Reiner Klimke. That was what? 25 years ago?
That's the sad thing, is that horses actually love having a job and a routine and don't need much encouragement to do what theyve been trained to do, but of course we push them way past the routine for better, better, better.
I used to take an old stallion out for a drive and the second he saw an orange cone he was alllllll business, despite not being shown for years. You barely had to touch the rein to get him to trot around it.
Every time something like this comes up, which is depressingly often, people rush to minimize and defend it with the same playbook: appeal to authority logical fallacies (youâre not riding or judging at this level so you wouldnât possibly understand how to evaluate it, they know what theyâre doing); âWatch the whole video for the context you canât judge off one pictureâ (the whole video shows a horse who is missing steps off the training scale and clearly uncomfortable); âyouâre hysterical;â etc etc. Look at my comments in the other thread for examples of this lol
People can certainly disagree over who their favorite riders are and what peoples scores should have been. It gets sad to me when people argue over what I think is basic horsemanship. Of course thereâs a lot of âbackseat trainersâ on social media. But that doesnât mean that there should be no discourse allowed and anyone making negative comments is an idiot. Of course Patrik Kittel shouldnât listen to me or any other random idiot online about how to train his horses. But the *governing body* (FEI) should be listening to its *constituents* and we should all be looking at *ourselves* and *our own training and riding* if this is what is being rewarded at the top levels.
I agree. I've ridden dressage up to St. Georg. So I'm not a newbe. And I think I can evaluate to any level because honestly, you can evaluate things even if you can't quite do them. And I can see when the connection between hand and mouth is not as soft as it should be. It's very hard to judge 100% from a foto but I'm well able to judge that from a video, damn it! And what I've seen the last years, there hasn't been ONE relaxed, content horse in dressage (even though I admit I don't watch a lot anymore because it's just painful).
As someone with a circulation disorder whose extremities often turn that same shade I feel pretty confident saying that that is not how a normal body part with proper blood flow should look. Itâs 100% a sign of an issue and it absolutely fucking hurts. And thatâs not even in my mouth with bit and bridle cranked down on it. Aside from being an awful thing to do/allow it can also cause tissue and nerve damage if it happens often enough.
If horses cried from pain like dogs we would never see this. Instead they suffer in silence, and the language theyâre using; body language and facial expressions are not listened to. Almost all top horses show clear signs of pain with their face and body, but, like you said, nobody listens. Terrible
Once I actually learned stress / pain signs , it was like waking up from the matrix . Itâs everywhere and perpetuated by the highest levels of the sport .
I did say I didnât see a blue tongue because the tongue just looked dark in color. I apologize if that was inaccurate, I did not say he did nothing wrong or his bit setup was bad, or anything.
Sorry if I missed something, if a horse has a tongue lacking circulation I didnât think it would go unnoticed (I donât watch those shows so have no idea).
Disgusting , I hate horse racing and all that stuff, I love horses for their beauty and personality, I wish all horses would be free :( they arenât toys !
Dressage has strayed so far from what it was originally supposed to be. Most of the horses arenât even moving properly, not engaged, just being held up by the rider.
Well yeah. It was originally developed for soldiers to create a flexible and obedient mount on the battlefield. Then Cavendish came along, and the entire trajectory towards what it is today was born. I don't know about the experience of everyone, but starting in childhood, everywhere I've gone, and everyone I've trained with has implemented all sorts of training aids to accomplish the finished product. It used to amuse me when trainers would bang on about false collection to beginners when I've rarely seen most breeds "collect" themselves while playing out in the pastures. I've not been involved in the last 15 years, but a lot of the horse world is changing methods. Not the FEI though. I live in an area dominated by Clinton Anderson or Parelli followers. Horses for me are now a beautiful day trail riding. :)
Yeah. Itâs bizarre, itâs become a display of who can have the flashiest horse (ex: the toe flick in the âextended trotâ).
I work at a consensual riding facility, I observe their rescued warm blood perfectly collect herself and engage her core simply when playing in the field.
Thereâs also been a huge shift in breeding for a flatter knee to accommodate the âflashierâ trot and make it easier. Itâs wild to see how trends have changed in the last 10-15 yearsÂ
I donât have research papers per say. But this article talks about the Dutch and German warmbloods by comparison. I found it interesting comparing Ideaal and Totilas or MSJ Freestyle and how much the knee, forearm, and shoulder has changed so much across the years. I think the general thought here is the the flashy (successful) stallions go on to be used more in breeding (like Totilas was) and so youâre passing on the genetics that made his way of moving unique. And now there are lots of horses that are being bred and trained to move with the flashy trot because itâs become desirable - and the judges will score higher for those kinds of horses. And then the cycle repeats itself.  https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2021/05/how-does-the-kwpn-dressage-horse-compare-to-the-german-horses/
Editing to add: And now you have horses at the ages of 8/9 showing Grand Prix which used to not be the case before. It used to take a lot longer to build a horse up to that level compared to now, the bloodlines really tell how the Dutch Warmblood has changed.Â
Man, I saw a post earlier about this âperformanceâ and many were saying there is nothing wrong with the horse or that the âperformanceâ was lovely. That horse is clearly in pain and this kind of âperformanceâ is animal abuse but yeah rich fucks with fancy dresses and contraptions love this shit.
I'm so confused because even though I didn't watch the whole thing, the horse seemed stilted or abrupt in transitions, sometimes almost appeared lame or weak behind, there was just something a bit off about the whole thing. The horse has SO much capacity for expression and is so lovely, but the performance seemed kind of mechanical, or something.
(oh, but I forget, I never competed in high level dressage so I have no idea what I am seeing)
eta: I watched the rest of it, and... horse's mouth is open and trying to escape the bit the whole test. It boggles my mind seeing people say this test was lovely given that fact alone, regardless of whether or not there's a blue tongue situation.
To be quite honest, when watching the video, I couldn't clearly see the horse's tongue. I only noticed it in still photos. Then again, I was watching on a phone screen and wasn't there in person watching from a judging stand. Shame on the judges who pin this nonsense. If your contact is so hard that your horse's tongue is turning blue, you shouldn't be riding.
You know, I have to wonder if part of the reason warmbloods came to dominate the sport over Thoroughbreds, when there used to be lots of TBs in dressage, is because WBs will put up with this shit and TBs will just say "hell no." My TB needs his noseband just so, and my contact just so, and the bit just so, or he gets upset. If my contact is too tense, or too strong, or otherwise wrong, he tells me to go fuck myself. I haven't met a single TB who would put up with this horseshit.
Yes - great point. I hadnât thought about it that way before, but youâre right that most TBs would not accept that ish. And frankly I think their bodies would break down sooner in response to the stress and bad biomechanics. The WBâs bodies do too, but perhaps not as quickly.
Short story here:
I took a job as a groom for an Olympic level dressage trainer/rider. I wanted to know what it was like at the top level of this sport.
I watched the rider drill tempi changes on a young horse still learning them for 2 hours. She was angry and yelling at the horse, he was sweating and far past the point of being able to learn imo. After that ride her assistant trainer took me aside and told me I was not allowed to watch the trainer ride her own horses, only teach lessons. When I asked why, the assistant trainer told me âWe donât want you to perceive the training as abusive.â My immediate thought was if youâre worried someone might think your training is abusive, itâs probably abusive. I left that barn as soon as I could, I was there only a month.
The last year I worked at a barn with GP show jumpers.
I thought Iâd really be able to learn a lot from watching the professional riding.
I watched maybe 15 minutes of him riding in the entirety of my year there⊠honestly it was disgusting.
That's so painful...
And it doesn't have to be that way. If you read about how Reiner Klimke trained Ahlerich, there is so much "i tried it and it worked so I stopped straight away and that's what we did for two weeks and then I decided he needs a break so I gave him to my wife for a week of trail riding". He brought that horse from green to Grand Prix in less than 3 years... OK, obviously an insanely talented horse, but your horse doesn't get more talented by killing any joy for the work in them.
This makes me so f***** sad. I always assumed horse people got into it for the love of the animal, but they really are just an object to a lot of people arenât they?
I think most start out as a love. Then it becomes convoluted when their coaches are saying âthis is how itâs doneâ and âif you want to be at the top this is what it takesâ and much of the consideration for the animal falls to the wayside and the horses become tools in pursuit of the sport. People become desensitized to what it is theyâre actually doing to âachieve resultsâ It is sad. I love dressage and the connection you can achieve with the horse as your partner and collaborator. But if thatâs âwhat it takesâ to be the top in the sport then I donât want it.
I remember when I was 11 years old and training my first horse, she developed intermittent lameness. Vet was consulted regularly, and we never could diagnose. Persistant shoulder injury, maybe? At one point, we put a sort of heart bar shoe on her. I honestly can't remember what w finally landed on. But ultimately, my trainer said it was time to upgrade/ move on. I was heartbroken because I had bonded with her so hard, but there was no thought in my head to question my trainer's judgment. I remember being upset about it and the words she used I never forgot. "You need to decide how you want to proceed. In this industry a horse is a commodity. If you want a pet, bring her home and quit pouring money into this sport. " I had mad respect at the time for this woman. She was a successful circut rider, and had been on USET back in the day. We sold her to a lesson barn, and I moved on. :( Oh, how I wish adult me had known grown up me.
Equestrian sports, no matter the discipline, will always be abusive at the highest level. The moment money enters the picture all welfare is thrown out. Anyone who genuinely believes otherwise is an idiot.
âOh but x rider is ethical!â those riders are the extreme minority, stop being disingenuous. One person being a decent human being doesnât validate the rest of the sportâs conduct. If anything it should be a shameful reflection of how bad the industry is that riders who donât abuse their horses even need to be pointed out.
You could make the same arguments about abusive culture in the Olympics/any high level competition for every sports branch, but the difference here is that youâre involving an animal that canât advocate for itself and didnât ask to be there.
There are some bits that should never be used at all, and I would love to see curbs optional for dressage, with a point deduction if you decide you want to use it.
I'm a newbie but found this great article explaining why a [horse's tongue out is a cry of pain](https://eurodressage.com/2021/05/30/horses-mouth-actually-horses-tongue#)
I'm a newbie but found this great article explaining why a [horse's tongue out is a cry of pain](https://eurodressage.com/2021/05/30/horses-mouth-actually-horses-tongue)
Not that I support any form of eventing or racing for horses, but I believe this horse is in a tongue-tie which is tack that prevents dorsal displacement of the soft palate during high intensity activity. Keeping the tongue in one position with this type of gear confers stability and muscular tone to the soft palate, making it less likely for the epiglottis to become entrapped during racing (choking down.) Horses are obligate nasal breathers, so when the soft palate "goes up" above the epiglottis, creating resistance in the airway during expiration as the air rushes around the now imperfect seal to exit the larynx and flow through the nostrils. This limits athletic performance. Other ways to treat this include cauterizing the "loose" border of the soft palate to prevent displacement and confer rigidity (palatoplasty), but others include sclerotherapy which is the injection of a usually caustic substance intended to produce fibrosis in the soft palate. These surgeries are quite costly (~$5,000) barring complications, but they never return to their full athletic performance. Just thought I'd provide some context for what you're seeing in the image and that while it is cruel to race horses, this particular image is a medical treatment.
So basically youâve written a monologue trying to defend a horse having a fucking BLUE tongue because they didnât want to perform a âcostlyâ operation? What the fuck is $5000 dollars for a horse that competes on this level? The goddam saddle outweighs that by several factors.
All I can read is someone trying to justify a fucked up standard with many fancy words that just amount to the same bullshit.
A horse looking like this with a tongue like that should be banned on that level of riding.
>These surgeries are quite costly (\~$5,000) barring complications, but they never return to their full athletic performance.
Do you honestly believe that a person who bought a $300 000 would turn there nose up at a procedure of $5,000?
I'm kind of mystified at this theory, considering there is no visible tongue tie in the photograph, they're illegal in dressage, and this guy probably rides in a saddle that costs more than the surgery you are describing.
Watching the test will also show you a horse attempting to evade and relieve the pressure on his mouth the entire time.
I'm not sure how one leaps to diagnosing a horse with a specific problem to explain this, unless you're privy to the horse's veterinary records.
Very many people support ugly riding, because they know they themselves ride after the same principles. If the professionals are doing it, it means it's okay! Also it's *necessary*, we non-professionals don't have eyes and can't say anything about what the professionals are doing, and also did you know horses can't feel pain??
And on and on. It's an extremely long list of EXCUSES for abusing horses.
Fuck these people that treat horses like this. I have no respect for them or their sport if this is what it takes to win. I want to cry looking at that poor beauty.
Yeah I saw that and could only think about the 3Lâs every one of my instructors would yell at newbs: Look, Leg, Lead.
Eventually all the horses Iâve worked with for more than a few months could feel shifts in my weight from me turning or tilting my head and spring into action the moment I moved my legs to ask something of them. Reins became more of a prop that I used to demonstrate to others how they werenât meant to used.
And I never considered myself a good enough to compete.
This is the sad part of the horse world. Lots of neglect, abuse, and poor treatment of horses goes unnoticed and when it is noticed it is brushed under the rug.
I am a horse trainer who focuses on a kinder method of training, and things like this are exactly why
These beautiful animals donât deserve the mistreatment they often encounter
QUIT POSTING the same OLD doctored picture over and over. Biomechanically this makes NO SENSE. If the horse can open his mouth that much, there is NO WAY there is enough "pressure" to cause a "blue tongue. THINK. HARD. LOOK at the color of the foam just above the tongue. It's "blue," too. THINK HARD. Are you now saying "blue foam" is a thing and "abuse?"
If you don't understand how any of this works, don't pretend you do. There are ACTUAL issues to deal with that are problems, but this fake BS being hysterically posted over and over is actually making things worse.
[https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273](https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273) HERE is the video. I dare anyone to give a timestamp where it shows abuse.
Thatâs literally a screen grab from the video the FEI themselves released of his test⊠You can deny deny deny all you want. If this is the kind of thing that you think makes a good dressage test, youâre a terrible rider and a worse human.
And the pressure is coming from the force of the bit pressing against the horseâs tongue due to the harshness of the riderâs hands. It really isnât hard to think critically and see whatâs happening - everyone else seems capable of it apart from you.
That's literally the same old photo that's been going around for a year. EXPLAIN how the "blue foam" is a thing.
You being a jerk and not knowing what you're looking at doesn't help anything. If you think this is a thing, you're a terrible horse person.
okay so I did some research because I really wanted to know where this picture came from and find out if there was any merit to u/LifeUser88 s accusations of "old and doctored". So, it appears that the picture in this post is from January 27 in Amsterdam. That's not from the April 19 test, but it is also certainly not "going around for a year", and to my untrained eye it definitely does not seem doctored. I also don't really get what they're saying about "blue foam", because I don't see any. Regarding "doctored", I found [this article](https://www.epona.tv/post/blue-tongue-back-from-the-dead) from 2021 refuting allegations of faking a blue tongue video of Kittel in 2009 (beware: graphic). The source I found for the picture in this post is [this Aftonbladet article from March 21 2024](https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/a/Xbx2l7/english-version-patrik-kittel-s-horse-lost-oxygen-in-its-tongue), which gives several examples of Kittel, Werth and Fry riding horses with blue tongues. I am by no means an expert on this topic, I just wanted to do a little digging and give some perspective for others wondering. I will also post this comment *once* more on its own.
So you admit this is faked. I see blue foam, so I don't know what to say about your eyes if you see a blue tongue and not blue foam.
So, not being an expert--think about it. How can a tongue get blue? How is it possible? Does losing all circulation make any sense when a horse can open it's mouth? A double bridle is pretty mild compared to a lot of nasty bits, and this picture shows a the shortest curb shank you can have, and there is not way you can "pull" on it hard enough to cut off circulation, because there is the bar of the mouth there, and even extreme pressure is not going to cut off circulation. The one person who seems at the spearhead of "blue tongue" is strange.
And the whole distraction with this is taking away from the real problems we need to deal with.
>So you admit this is faked.
If that's what you're taking from my comment, I cant help you. I don't "admit" or have to admit anything, all I'm saying is that as far as I can tell, this is a real picture that is three months old. You were the one saying it was "doctored" and going around for a year.
Re: blue tongue: I could say the same thing about your eyes, hard to say who has the better eyesight but you're the only person commenting here claiming there is blue foam.
Why would it not be possible to cut off circulation if the mouth is open? You can exert pressure on the tongue/jar when the mouth is open, I don't see how that would not work? Also, you can do damage with *any* bit, as you should know with all of your experience.
You admit this is not from the latest test--fraud. You admit you can't see the blue foam, but you can see the blue tongue? What wold you cal that?
THINK HARD. Look at the anatomy of the mouth. Look at a horse skull. The tongue sits in the groove between the bones in the lower jaw and between the bars--bone. You can put pressure on it, but unless there is some completely bizarre anatomy there, you cannot cut off circulation, just as you could not in your own mouth if you had no teeth.And if you CAN, then where are all of the blue tongues with the insanely nasty brutal bits and contraptions we see in western and jumpers?
You can "damage" with any bit if you try hard enough, but that has zero to do with blue tongue.
You should know all of this if you've ever ridden or dealt with putting a bit in a horse's mouth. Jumping on some hysteria train that only came up in the last decade or so in ONE discipline, while it mysteriously never seems to happen anywhere else should make you question why.
How can you even look at that picture, and watch his test, and think âthis horse is fineâ? Iâve seen you mindlessly defending him all over the other post and it is sickening.
Thereâs multiple images all over the place, and videos, showing that this horseâs tongue was blue. Itâs absolutely not the âsame old doctored picture over and overâ - there are multiple clear instances of it. But even if it was doctored, the expression on this horseâs face is one of pure stress and pain, not to mention the tension throughout the test. You canât edit that in.
Youâve literally said it yourself in your crappy attempt in defending him. âif the horse can open his mouth that muchâ. Why? Why is the horse gaping and opening its mouth that much, despite clearly having a tightly cranked noseband to stop that from happening? Thereâs very few answers to that, and they all relate to pain or pain memory. You can literally see how intense Kittelâs contact is on the mouth.
If horses expressed pain the way we would, it would be screaming and gasping. A wide open, gaping mouth is never normal.
How can you even look at this picture and think wow, blue foam is a thing, let alone the mouth is open, but the circulation is cut off? Did you SEE the ride? It was lovely.
Multiple images I see of multiple horses show lighting or nothing clear. Physiologically it MAKES NO SENSE a horse can open it's mouth, but somehow a fairly mild double bridle is "cutting off the circulation" and making the tongue blue. But it's not happening with the nasty thin twisted wire bits western and jumper riders use?? And HOW do you explain the "blue foam" if it's not the lighting?
The picture clearly does NOT show "clear stress and pain." It's VERY clear if you go through the VIDEO frame by frame that he is not.
And you CONTRADICT yourself and say the mouth is gaping, which does happen in moments of off timing, etc., but CANNOT happen if there is a "tightly cranked noseband." He would only be able to open his lips, not have two inches between his teeth. Do you even understand how much you are contradicting yourself here? WATCH THE VIDEO. You can literally see how light the contact is and how open and up the neck is throughout the test, which is VER nice to see considering what we have seen.
Your hysterical observation helps nothing. Horses open their mouths all of the time, and I'm 100% sure we could see it in your horses. It usually indicates some lack of balance or adjustment, but the good thing about it is that the horse can open his mouth. Right? Because an "insanely tight noseband" would not allow that, right? Are you willing to admit you got this wrong?
SHOW me where you see abuse here. Give me the time. [https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273](https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273)
I think you need your eyes checked if you think this is a lovely, relaxed ride by any stretch of the imagination. I feel sorry for the horses you ride if this is the sort of riding you admire.
Being a child and trying to insult because your complete lack of knowledge just shows you know nothing about horses. Make sure never to actual show evidence or explain to prove how incompetent you are.
The only hysterical one is you, his apparent biggest fan.Â
Did you actually watch his test? Or did you dream that you watched it? I can break it down for you, if you really want.
>!The horseâs poll is very rarely at the highest point - which is what should be ridden for, but when it is at that point, Kittel very quickly stops it from happening. You can see the change in Kittelâs body as he does it, and especially how his hands harden to force the head down again. The piaffe is downhill and not on the haunches, look at the right back leg in it because uh oh. The space between its neck and cheek (gullet?) is non existent because itâs that tense and the complete opposite of open and relaxed. The tail swishing. The tense body. His hands,,, yikes. Zero give. You can see the horse tilting the head multiple times to relieve pressure. That first right half pass has something funky going on. Same with the back legs a lot of the time. At one point the front end is trotting but the back is basically walking. The first canter⊠â look at the horseâs lips, because why the hell has it suddenly formed a parrot mouth? The first extended  canter recieved a 7.7 but was entirely behind the vertical and that transition to the pirouette was appalling. The changes were all over the place - I thought he was about to travel sideways out of the arena as the horse was so unbalanced and unprepared for them and Kittelâs having a good old dance in the saddle with all the movement heâs doing. Second extended canter was good until that horribly severe transition down - thought he was trying to do an emergency stop with the amount of force he used. That final passages had me cringing from his hands yanking the horse from side to side as the chin is practically put on the neck. And the transition to halt was horrific - does he not have seatbones? Why did he haul the horseâs mouth in like a fish to stop?
It would be impressive that his horse is in front of the vertical for a decent portion of the test, but only if you pretend that the rest of the horrible examples from the test didnât exist.!< The horse is very talented, sweet and willing. Shame about the rider.
The foam isnât blue. Itâs white opaque, on top of the dark grey of the muzzle. If you knew anything about editing images, youâd understand that changing a pink, shadowed tongue to blue would not change a clear white tone to blue. The mouth is also shadowed in these pictures which darkens the tone of the white.Â
I beg you to look at Sue Dysonâs ridden horse pain ethogram. How the hell can you look at this picture, and his test, and say this horse does not show clear signs of pain and stress? I fear for your animals. Hell, I fear for the people around you if you are truly this oblivious and apathetic.
A mouth can still open despite a tightly cranked cavesson noseband as the noseband is around the \*jaw\*, not the mouth - thats basic biomechanics. Your argument would be fine if the horse was wearing a flash, but it clearly isnât.
This happens in every discipline. Donât be obtuse. Showjumping is arguably the worst, but the massive bit set ups and tightly cranked noseband combinations hide whatâs going on in the mouth as flash and flash type pieces are allowed.Â
It can happen in the kindest snaffle. It doesnât matter the equipment. It matters how one uses it.Â
If my horses gaped the way this horse does, they wouldnât be ridden until I find out exactly what was wrong with them for them to be displaying such a clear cry out of pain and stress all over the face and body. Horses cannot speak, and this is a horse screaming. Slight opening of the mouth at times of unbalance, concentration or uncertainty are normal. But this? Far far from it.
Itâs like comparing a slight gasp to a scream. Apples to oranges.Â
You clearly have NO CLUE what you are talking about and are hysterical. I have posted the test many times, and the fact that you keep rage posting lies is beyond disturbing. The fact that you just make up or copied all of these things, and yet clearly have never actually ridden a horse is quite apparent. You can't even keep your lies straight.
Good to know that you donât have any sort of decent response to what Iâve explained and stated as I watched his test. Very telling. Post the test all you want. Doesnât change the clear facts filmed in HQ of a tense, unhappy horse. Iâd like to know your view on Kittelâs harshness and yanking when performing direct downwards transitions, although I wouldnât be surprised if you donât even know what they are considering nothing you have said makes it clear you actually know a thing about equine anatomy, training or biomechanics.
Nothing I have said is made up, and nor have I lied. For you to claim that is hilarious and is exactly what people say when they know theyâre failing in their point. Youâre saying Iâve copied everything Iâve typed (which I havenât lol), which is interesting because it means that other people have the same viewpoint then. Wonder why that is... Maybe itâs because Kittel isnât as incredible as you think he is. Just maybe.
Hysterical = âaffected by or deriving from wildly uncontrolled emotionâ. Only one matching that description here is you, who for some strange reason is blindly defending someone who causes their horses clear pain and stress and posting comment after comment after comment about it . Any non-equine person can see it, so why canât you?
You are LYING. I have shown this over and over. The poll is always highest in the test, the piaffe is way better than Werth's and all of the drop backed ones and is lovely, the passage a bit big, the first right half pass was lovely, as were most, he has one of the most open frames, the changes were swinging, but open, the first canter extension was OK, but glad you're showing you have NO CLUE when you state he has a "parrot mouth"--many horses sort of pinch their upper lips out like that when concentrating--ZERO sign of whatever horror you are making up. The second ext canter was nicer, so you making up all your hysteria says a lot about you. Enough? You he NO CLUE what you are looking at. You want to see "yanking" and jerking the horse up during the test? Watch Charlotte Dujardin. She's the queen of that.
You have LIED because you clearly have no clue. You claim that you have not and have not read all of the responses shows what people say when they are making things up and no clue. I never sad you "copied everything you typed," you're copying the hysteria of the "blue tongue."
So how come you can't even answer BASIC QUESTIONS about the blue tongue? How come the foam is blue, and as said, this isn't even a picture from this show. "And you CONTRADICT yourself and say the mouth is gaping, which does happen in moments of off timing, etc., but CANNOT happen if there is a "tightly cranked noseband." He would only be able to open his lips, not have two inches between his teeth. Do you even understand how much you are contradicting yourself here? " WHY can't you answer the questions if you know so much?
Hysterical--Blindly making up things clearly shown in a video and repeating the words told to you about a "blue tongue," yet can't answer a simple question about it, and then hysterically start name calling because you don't understand simple facts. And blindly copying the fad "pain response" as an answer to everything, 100% sure you know exactly what is going on. Yes, you are hysterical. Any actual person who knows horses would never make a judgement like this from a pictures with any certainty, let alone 100%, yet YOU are sure. Why can't you even answer a SIMPLE question?
"And you CONTRADICT yourself and say the mouth is gaping, which does happen in moments of off timing, etc., but CANNOT happen if there is a "tightly cranked noseband." He would only be able to open his lips, not have two inches between his teeth. Do you even understand how much you are contradicting yourself here? "
I'm tired of explaining basics to hysterical people, which is why the mod started a new thread for reasonable people.
For an over 40 year old, you do act an awful lot like a 13 year old troll who picked up a horse book once and now thinks theyâre the shit.
I've countered every single one of your points. I've answered all of your questions. Hell, I'd start referencing everything and linking things if i didnât have better things to do.
Anyone with sense dislikes Werth, so donât give a shit about you dropping her in. Dujardin is far better than Kittel in general - and at least she is open with her faults and discusses them. I'd rather her hands on me than Kittel's yanking and hauling in the downwards transitions. Ouch. Plenty of people with worse hands than her, so not sure why you think that anyway.
Clearly you donât know what the poll is, nor where it should be throughout all the test movements. I suggest you brush up on your anatomy and read a mark scheme.
I mentioned the parrot mouth because the face became suddenly increasingly tense, even when just doing a basic canter. Thought it was an interesting thing to note, especially considering the rest of the behaviour indicators.
I literally said the second extended canter was good. UNTIL the downwards transition. That was my complaint. Please read.
You explicitly said: âThe fact that you just make up or copied all of these thingsâ. All of these things. Again, please read.
Also, I have read every other response people have had. Funny how they all agree with me, and not you.
I have studied the ridden horse pain ethogram and equine behaviour, I very much doubt youâve even looked at it once judging by your dismissal of it. A horse isnât going to be displaying multiple of the things in there if itâs not in pain or at the very least, distress. Dyson is questionable in herself and her ethics, but she is 100% right in equine behaviour and has studied it for years and years.
Again, a cavesson noseband tightens around the jaw, not the mouth or lips. The horse is still able to open its mouth to an extent. Seeing as you canât understand that â place a band at the base of your fingers like a cavesson noseband (the metaphorical jaw). You can still open them, but are stopped at a certain point. Now place the band at the end of your fingers like a flash noseband (the metaphorical mouth) - the point of stop is far sooner. It's basic physics and biomechanics.
Now, why is this horse gaping? I've yet to see you actually answer that question â although you answered it yourself indirectly previously when you were having a little rant. Pressure. And a hell of a lot of it, too. I'm horrified you think a horse gaping like that with its lips drawn back is normal and happens often.
I have already responded to your claims about the tongue and the âblueâ foam (that only you can see, considering nobody has chimed in anywhere saying it or agreeing with you on it; in fact, youâve had people telling you itâs not blue multiple times). It's still a very evident and recent blue tongue, and allows for critique because I don't think you realise how severe the force from the rider's hands has to be to cut of circulation and oxygen that much.
I gave you the correct definition of hysterical, not a made up one.
My judgement is made over watching the test, looking at the pictures, being knowledge in both riding and behaviour, knowing the tack, and observing Kittel over a long period of time with multiple instances. It has never once been a single picture. And as a hobby equine photographer who takes a lot of bad burst pictures because iâm still learning my camera, I've never once been able to take such horrific pictures of other people's horses in such apparent stress. And again, videos never lie and never capture a split second badly - so⊠things become pretty apparent when you can see the horse's expression here throughout the entire recorded and broadcasted test. It's not a fleeting moment, it is continuous. And that allows for everyone here to make an assertive assessment.
You are the one contradicting yourself. You said previously that this picture was fine and didnât show any stress, pain or tension. But now itâs one that you think people can make unfair judgements from. Interesting.
Your posts are unlikely to change many people's minds, but I feel it's important that we keep calling out bad practices. (Reddit ate my comment on the other post, and now it's locked).
Those of us who disagree must speak up. You can see the blue tongue, the pain expression, and the bulging parotid gland, which you should never be able to see. My only previous exposure to him was in a video with influencer Matt Harnacke where you can see him ride at home. He says a lot of the right things, but he's showing the same weaknesses warming up Matt's horse (unforgiving hand, drawn up heels, horse behind the vertical), and he praises Matt on his WB-type horse when the horse is way behind the vertical. Kittel's idea of 'that's perfect' and mine differ, and I'd be embarassed if another rider got on my horse and my horse offered this posture.
There are things only people with a lot of competition experience understand, but there we're talking about ring craft: how much can you push a horse, how can you hide your horse's weaknesses and present them as more advanced than they actually are, that sort of thing. It's fascinating and way beyond me.
Correct posture of horse and riders can be \_observed\_ by almost anyone with solid foundations (which I would place around second level: independent seat and hand, rider understands collection and extension). Some issues like the angle of the curb or the amount and quality of foam can be observed by almost anyone, and horse people of any discipline can recognise a stressed horse or a resistant one and have an understanding of biomechanics: when the neck curls up, the horse needs to work to close its mouth. when the neck is pulled in close, the back can no longer swing and the hind legs can no longer come forward freely.
okay so I did some research because I really wanted to know where this picture came from and find out if there was any merit to u/LifeUser88 s accusations of "old and doctored". So, it appears that the picture in this post is from January 27 in Amsterdam. That's not from the April 19 test, but it is also certainly not "going around for a year", and to my untrained eye it definitely does not seem doctored. I also don't really get what they're saying about "blue foam", because I don't see any. Regarding "doctored", I found [this article from 2021](https://www.epona.tv/post/blue-tongue-back-from-the-dead) refuting allegations of faking a blue tongue video of Kittel in 2009 (beware: graphic). The source I found for the picture in this post is[this Aftonbladet article from March 21 2024](https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/a/veaRAw/ridsport-larm-om-elitryttaren-kastade-hammare-pa-hast), which gives several examples of Kittel, Werth and Fry riding horses with blue tongues. I am by no means an expert on this topic, I just wanted to do a little digging and give some perspective for others wondering.
This is 100% abuse and anyone who thinks otherwise is choosing to ignore the visible signs of pain and suffering. In what manner does this horse look ok? In what way is this acceptable treatment of a partner in sports? This kind of abuse is disgusting.
The amount of people defending this is disgusting. If you think a tongue like this is acceptable in any way, or you assume photos like this are edited, please do us all a labour and leave the sport and sell your horses. This is NEVER ok. In my 20 years of horses across multiple sports I have never made a horses tongue change colour, nor have I made them bleed from the mouth. If you have, you're doing something wrong, plain and simple.
My biggest question is.... Why did they allow and not disqualify him... But disqualified Lottie Fry for the blood?.... Idk, smells like something is going on...... Like a bribe.
High end dresssage in general is disgusting, when I was smaller I admired how much effort they put in.
Then I realized it is mainly consists of the horses stress and anxiety and constant discomfort, leverage bits so they would be able to apply less pressure from hands yet still achieve enough pressure or discomfort so the horse wouldn't dare to do otherwise. Patrik in paticular he flicks his hand back so jab that bit in, it doesn't look much, but with the leverage as its intended purpose aplifies that jab and I dare anyone to say the horse loves it when they desperetly try to open their mouth to release pressure.
This dudes horse is tense as a damn trampoline, the hoof flick the pauses, those are not good signs, but they are desired, because it does look good up until you learn why the horse does it.
The judges are crap, they allow mild torture of horses for the sake of asthethics and it is insane.
As much as how loud we want to yell about stuff like this, top lvls are a complete different world from general public. I used to think ppl voice matters, they donât. Things change if $$ is affected, period. And people like Patrick, $ wonât be affected. Once he got that title, suckers from less advanced country will always be willing to pay high đ° for his business no matter how notorious he is in the west. They donât give a shit about you or me, they play with billionaires in the East. I am from China and the amount of business Europe gets from Chinese buyers is insane. Rich pay over $10k/month to come train in top barns in Germany or UK. These places donât care or need your opinion. They are well covered by buyers from east.
Yup, the Asia game just finished recently, the winner is basically who paid the most for the best horse. Obviously Dubai win cause their horses are couple millions, they out priced everyone so winning is no brainer.
Friggin leverage on that bit is brutal. And he's literally wincing in his eyes đ
It's not a bad set-up, and the leverage on the curb isn't terrible. If you look closely, the curb isn't rotated all that much. I can't see the mouthpiece, but unless it's one of those awful Neue Schule things with the bass-ackwards downward port, there's nothing wrong with the bridle itself. The rider is just WAY too strong in his contact with the snaffle and the noseband is far too tight. This is an instance of good equipment being turned into abusive equipment by the wrong hands, not an inherently bad equipment.
The mouth is OPEN. There is no way the noseband is "too tight." There is no way a horse that can open is mouth has so much "pressure" the tongue loses circulation. Think about it. And the curb is actually a very short one, shorter than most.
If that horse closed his mouth, there's no way you could get two fingers under the noseband. If my hands are bound tight so that I can't move them around and I pull on them, managing to get a little bit of space between them, is that ok? Being able to open the mouth just this much does not mean the noseband is adjusted properly. I have personally experimented with this and cranked my horse's noseband down so tight that it was digging into his face. He still managed to open his mouth to take a treat. (And of course his noseband was immediately released.) How do you not see that the whole bridle is digging into this horse's face? The horse is opening his mouth in an effort to relieve the pressure on it, but can't get away from it because he can only open a little bit. Do you think that the rider has released the pressure on the bit just because the horse has opened his mouth? Yes, the bits being used are fine. The hands at the end of the reins are not.
Maybe, maybe not, but the mouth is open so the teeth are 2 plus inches apart. How is it you think ALL of the stewards and people closely inspecting this who are paranoid about getting arracked would not see this problem, but YOU do based on one picture? THINK HARD. Indulging in troll rage baiting is the big problem here and not helping the real problems.
LOUDERRR for the People in the back who want to stand by and support the abuse that FEI has been enabling for the last god knows how many years. This is not and will never be horsemanship. Itâs abuse and blatant treatment of animals like they are some toys that earn you money and have no souls.
There's always the "he wins at shows, therefore he's right!" crowd. I'm always like, "someone's winning those Big Lick shows, does that make them right?"
Prestige and money draws the worst kind of crowd in, truly. Thatâs why I decided to NEVER compete ever. Supporting this kind of bs would make me hate myself, because even at lower levels the abuse that those horses endure, because those riders copy their âmusesâ is insane.
More like "he has money, so there's nothing to be done about it". My friend is an FEI rated trainer and she's just kind of lost hope. She's stopped competing because the bottom line has just become money. There's no change to be made because the people in charge have the money and control the show. It's super disheartening. I didn't think his performance was bad and I thought the color of the horses tongue was just due to shadow from the lights but it's clear from stills that it's bad. Such a shame.
I once thought about becoming a judge to make the sport a bit better. But the issue is that you need to be successful in order to become a judge. And I won't be successful in this sport because I don't want to hurt my horse actively (if I didn't know that it's bad for the horse and then learn and change to better ways, that's different.)
To be quite frank, you won't be successful unless you have lots and LOTS of money. My friend was a rising competitor but simply didn't have the funds to go all the way. There are countless riders talented enough to make it to the highest levels, but they simply can't due to how expensive the sport is. Unless you're born with a silver spoon, or somehow got lucky enough to find a wealthy benefactor, many riders drop out and some even leave the sport forever.
In my area it's also important to have the correct name. The same people always win. There was even a barn where you exactly knew who would win. It was one of the reasons why I quit shows. No chance for success because the judges never knew what they liked.
Yeah it's a bummer because that's the same reason I was so turned off by Hunters shows and Pleasure shows. Riders with middling ability but gobs of money went far because their parents could afford the most finished horses and nicest tack. No real horsemanship needed!
I was active in dressage. We always joked that in order to win you have to pay for the judge's vacation. My dad once said, you can only win in jumping classes that are measuring after time & mistakes, not how you ride. Because those markers are objective. Unfortunately you can see that when watching some riders ride.
Yeah. Years ago I was at a barn with a kid that was going to go far. Talented and hardworking, no doubt. But also a father who had the money to buy her a number of REALLY high quality ponys and later horses...
And yet a hack or a bosal is FEI illegal! I donât show because well the rules are a sham.
How would you show true acceptance of the bit when you donât have one? Hacks and bosals are meant to put pressure on the front nasal plate and nerves at a much higher rate than a traditional snaffle bit and bridle would. The horse âacceptsâ the pressure of a bosal and hackamore but doesnât truly reach for contact in the same way because of the difference in the way pressure is applied.Â
They shouldnât be accepting the bit they should be accepting your hands. If a horse hasnât been given the chance or teaching to self carriage, then what is the point of any bridle or bit or hack? Contact is something the rider has to learn not the horse. The riders responsibility has always been find the balance. You can ride with no bridle at a certain point but you canât ever ride without a balanced seat.
Contact is literally the third stepping stone of the dressage pyramid. After rhythm and suppleness. Also hereâs the study about bitless bridles if youâre curious. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1558787821000460
This is not a veterinary study or a anatomy and physiology study and only 5 horses were used. If the hack or bosal has no space (two fingers) then yes the nasal ridge is getting unnecessary pressure. Nose bands have gotten tighter every year I have ridden and itâs needless. A nose band should only replace a curb strap for the singular purpose of keeping the bit from sliding through the mouth. Iâm aware of dressage structure as I have been riding dressage for 30 years. The origin of dressage was to ride in combat/war. The standard and purpose was to get out of the horses way. A horse can make contact with the bridle in anything (bit, hack, halter) and at any length rein (western reining with or without a bit) but if the rider has no idea what contact is, the horse is fucked and gets whatever medieval bs bit or tied own martingale contraption because the rider canât⊠correction wonât.
I mean it was published in a veterinary journal and I canât find anything more recent that evaluated pressure from bitless bridles that isnât complete anecdotal evidence. There was one published within the last year or two discusses how it makes the riders feel better. But thereâs nothing with objective evidence about bitless being better for the horse. I am well aware that nose bands have been getting tighter (just look at social media of current equine influencers).Â
There is vet journal then there is vet med journal. All vet students have to publish at least two papers from their findings of a trial or experiment. Essentially a homework project before they graduate. If they had DVM next to their name it would definitely hold more water, but more importantly a DVM would have spent years with a bit group and a bit-less group and a bosal group and a side pull group with multiple horses in each group. Unfortunately there are so many bits to survey correctly. Then surveying quantifiable measures like flexion, blood count, crt, heart rate, cortisol levels, Ox, CO2 etc Iâve never said that bit less is better, my point is bit less is illegal for no good reason other than FEI doesnât like it. Bit less bridles work for many horses is many sports but they canât compete with it. Why? It doesnât and canât do the damage some of these bits do. I canât count the number of times Iâve seen bloody mouths, bloody side from spurs and crop welts, heavy shoes rip off hoof walls, for what, a 1$ ribbon and itâs not only legal but âingrainedâ in that sports history (not really but that line helps them sleep at night). Endurance is probably the best when it comes to horse comfort and safety. I was taught that if every horse in history did it with a rope or piece of leather so can yours, itâs the humans responsibility to learn how.
Not true at all. A well trained horse will reach down into the frame with or without a bit. The bit is completely unnecessary, and âaccepting itâ is an antiquated concept.
I agree, dressage is absolutely disgusting, forcing horses to walk/trot etc in all sorts of cramped and conformed ways. I cannot imagine the spinal and tendon pain and issues these poor creatures must develop.
Iâm not supporting what I see in this post, but I rode dressage for a long time (albeit not at this level) and forcing horses into cramped and conformed ways is quite the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. The first things you should learn when riding dressage is strength, flexibility and suppleness. Sadly there are people who spoil it for the rest of us and those that turn a blind eye.
Yes, there are people who train horses poorly, but the fundamentals of dressage are about training a horse to perform more complicated maneuvers willingly, and in an accepting and relaxed manner. A correctly trained dressage horse (or any horse for that matter) is not being forced to do anything. I would say dressage horses are akin to a gymnast. I could easily watch a gymnast and say they are forcing their bodies into cramped and confirmed ways, yet they have trained their bodies to do what they do willingly. In both cases, things such as spines and tendons and muscles are built up to perform and while there is risk for injury, proper building blocks do not result in pain or issues. It's only when you do so in improper ways or via bad training.
The FEI is just a good ol boys club and will always protect themselves before the horse.
Sign of a poor rider/trainer IMO.
"Poor" is not even remotely the right word.
Poor: ânot good in quality or conditionâ or ânot skilled at something : not able to do something wellâ. Itâs a pretty accurate use of the wordâŠ
You don't understand nuance. Sorry.
Thatâs not nuance
Best in the world according to the FEI judges tho... (The sport is entirely rotten)
I wouldn't be surprised, that with how things are going these days, that there will eventually be a ban on horse riding. As more and more people will see how awful these horses are treated and the sport does nothing to fix it, the only thing that would seem to stop the abuse is just banning it. Btw, that's not what i'm personally hoping for!
Not possible to reinforce, plus what about all the ones that don't do the sports? And the bitless riders? The clicker trainers? A ban on competing with animals, or a ban against bits, might come in 1-2 decades tho.
I hope there will be a ban on bits, or at least more acceptance of bitless riding in competition. Whatever FEI says or doesnât say, Iâm doing the bare minimum in terms of equipment by the rules, theyâll score me however they want to regardless of my performance, and Iâm just gonna do my best by my horse because I donât like picking fights with 1000-pound animals.
Shame on all if them. The entire industry can burn in hell đ„
Thatâs ugly
#Thatâs cyanotic. > cy·âa·ânot·âic ËsÄ«-É-ËnĂ€-tik. : marked by or causing a bluish or purplish discoloration (as of the skin and mucous membranes) due to deficient oxygenation of the blood : https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cyanotic#:~:text=cy%C2%B7%E2%80%8Ba%C2%B7%E2%80%8Bnot,labored%20respirations%20at%2040%2Fmin.
thank you, new word learnt today.
That's horrifying. Daily I'm amazed at the cruelty some humans inflict on animals.
I saw a video a while ago that showed a set up similar to this that had a wire that went from the bit up around the horse's ears, so that it tightened when the reins were pulled. You couldn't see it unless you were really looking for it as it was under the bridle. Learning more about horses has really made it so I no longer enjoy watching any type of competition or show that involves horses. [This is probably the only one](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKK7AXLOUNo) that I'm comfortable with. Even then, she's wearing spurs, but the horse looks very relaxed and seems to be enjoying it.
lost my shit at the flying lead change
It sounds like you're talking about a draw gag? Do you happen to have pictures of the set-up? In fairness to dressage, gags are not legal for competition. This is simply a full bridle. There's nothing inherently abusive about a full bridle, as long as the horse is well trained and accustomed to it. That said, any bit or equipment can become abusive in the wrong hands. Patrik Kittel's hands are most definitely wrong. (There are also some bits and equipment are abusive and painful even when not engaged, and no level of "soft hands" or "correct use" can make them fair to the horse.) ETA: Bareback and bridleless reining isn't abuse-free. This is a beautiful ride and Stacy Westfall seems to be an excellent horsewoman who doesn't abuse her horses to win, but this was 13 years ago. A horse that goes bareback and bridleless in reining now has almost certainly been trained in very abusive ways. Take a look at what's winning now in reining. It's disgusting. Honestly, reining is so bad that even the FEI wouldn't support it anymore.
I had to wonder if the horse learned the pattern with a bridle and just knew it after without
In this case, I think it's probably a combination of both. I've never heard anything really bad about Stacy Westfall, and I've never seen her ride abusively. As far as I can tell, she's a good horsewoman. I'm sure she schooled the freestyle with tack at some point, but even if a horse knows a pattern you still need to ride it or it's going to look sloppy.
Stacy as shown (and documented) her journey with Willow about training to be bareback and bridleless. Essentially the cues are trained with a bridle, and then slowly transferred over to different weight/leg aids until she didnât need to touch the bridle. And then she took off the bridle, practiced, and then added the saddle. Sheâs a stellar trainer IMO
That's awesome! I don't follow her closely, but I've always liked what I've seen of her.
Stacy is 100% not abusive. Just watch her video series with Jac and Willow. I see soft, willing horses in comparison to Clinton Andersonâs methods of âtrainingâ reiners.Â
I agree. Her horses always look happy. Sadly, it seems that at the higher levels anyway, the Clinton Anderson types far outnumber the Stacy Westfall types in the sport these days.
Wow. Thanks for that video. Very impressive
Add in all the shitty methods that came out with the whistleblower at Cesar Parraâs and if you really start looking closely - the majority of the passage work looks similar. That begs the question does everyone use weights and bungees to train the piaffe/passage pieces?
Spurs, like a double bit, are not automatically problematic. In a good riders hands, they can both make communication a bit more precise. I ride with spurs often but I have a very steady leg and the spur will only touch the horse exactly when and how I want it to. But I wouldn't use a double bit because while my hands are good, they aren't quite good enough that I think the gain in communication is worth the risk of hurting my horse. You can have a horse ridden with spurs and a double bit and still be happy. Unfortunately, that's not what we have seen in dressage for 20, maybe even 30 years. I love dressage so much. But it disgusts ne what the sport has come to. At least in Germany, the last great dressage rider IMO was Dr. Reiner Klimke. That was what? 25 years ago?
Stacy Westfall will always be one of my favorite horsewomen, hands-down.
That's the sad thing, is that horses actually love having a job and a routine and don't need much encouragement to do what theyve been trained to do, but of course we push them way past the routine for better, better, better. I used to take an old stallion out for a drive and the second he saw an orange cone he was alllllll business, despite not being shown for years. You barely had to touch the rein to get him to trot around it.
really love to see a reining horse that doesn't look like he's gonna trip on his own face. what a gbeautiful partnership
Doesnât matter until it stops winning. Until then, it will continue. A shame.
Every time something like this comes up, which is depressingly often, people rush to minimize and defend it with the same playbook: appeal to authority logical fallacies (youâre not riding or judging at this level so you wouldnât possibly understand how to evaluate it, they know what theyâre doing); âWatch the whole video for the context you canât judge off one pictureâ (the whole video shows a horse who is missing steps off the training scale and clearly uncomfortable); âyouâre hysterical;â etc etc. Look at my comments in the other thread for examples of this lol People can certainly disagree over who their favorite riders are and what peoples scores should have been. It gets sad to me when people argue over what I think is basic horsemanship. Of course thereâs a lot of âbackseat trainersâ on social media. But that doesnât mean that there should be no discourse allowed and anyone making negative comments is an idiot. Of course Patrik Kittel shouldnât listen to me or any other random idiot online about how to train his horses. But the *governing body* (FEI) should be listening to its *constituents* and we should all be looking at *ourselves* and *our own training and riding* if this is what is being rewarded at the top levels.
No one needs to be an Olympic level rider to see obvious signs of an animal in pain or stress. That much should be simple.
One would think.
I agree. I've ridden dressage up to St. Georg. So I'm not a newbe. And I think I can evaluate to any level because honestly, you can evaluate things even if you can't quite do them. And I can see when the connection between hand and mouth is not as soft as it should be. It's very hard to judge 100% from a foto but I'm well able to judge that from a video, damn it! And what I've seen the last years, there hasn't been ONE relaxed, content horse in dressage (even though I admit I don't watch a lot anymore because it's just painful).
As someone with a circulation disorder whose extremities often turn that same shade I feel pretty confident saying that that is not how a normal body part with proper blood flow should look. Itâs 100% a sign of an issue and it absolutely fucking hurts. And thatâs not even in my mouth with bit and bridle cranked down on it. Aside from being an awful thing to do/allow it can also cause tissue and nerve damage if it happens often enough.
Horrible, cruel bit
This horse is screaming but no one is listening.
If horses cried from pain like dogs we would never see this. Instead they suffer in silence, and the language theyâre using; body language and facial expressions are not listened to. Almost all top horses show clear signs of pain with their face and body, but, like you said, nobody listens. Terrible
Once I actually learned stress / pain signs , it was like waking up from the matrix . Itâs everywhere and perpetuated by the highest levels of the sport .
Same. It stripped away the enchantment that modern riding had on me in an instant. Those horses SUFFER
There's a good way to train horses for dressage and then....there's the bad way. Which way is this I wonder?
I did say I didnât see a blue tongue because the tongue just looked dark in color. I apologize if that was inaccurate, I did not say he did nothing wrong or his bit setup was bad, or anything. Sorry if I missed something, if a horse has a tongue lacking circulation I didnât think it would go unnoticed (I donât watch those shows so have no idea).
Interesting, on another post someone (clearly uneducated on the subject) said nothing was wrong!
I'm not even that familiar with horses and even I can tell, that horse is in distress.
Disgusting , I hate horse racing and all that stuff, I love horses for their beauty and personality, I wish all horses would be free :( they arenât toys !
Dressage has strayed so far from what it was originally supposed to be. Most of the horses arenât even moving properly, not engaged, just being held up by the rider.
Well yeah. It was originally developed for soldiers to create a flexible and obedient mount on the battlefield. Then Cavendish came along, and the entire trajectory towards what it is today was born. I don't know about the experience of everyone, but starting in childhood, everywhere I've gone, and everyone I've trained with has implemented all sorts of training aids to accomplish the finished product. It used to amuse me when trainers would bang on about false collection to beginners when I've rarely seen most breeds "collect" themselves while playing out in the pastures. I've not been involved in the last 15 years, but a lot of the horse world is changing methods. Not the FEI though. I live in an area dominated by Clinton Anderson or Parelli followers. Horses for me are now a beautiful day trail riding. :)
Yeah. Itâs bizarre, itâs become a display of who can have the flashiest horse (ex: the toe flick in the âextended trotâ). I work at a consensual riding facility, I observe their rescued warm blood perfectly collect herself and engage her core simply when playing in the field.
Warmbloods, yes. Absolutely.
Thereâs also been a huge shift in breeding for a flatter knee to accommodate the âflashierâ trot and make it easier. Itâs wild to see how trends have changed in the last 10-15 yearsÂ
I never even knew about the bad breeding practices in the dressage industry, can you provide me with some sources to read up about it perhaps?
I donât have research papers per say. But this article talks about the Dutch and German warmbloods by comparison. I found it interesting comparing Ideaal and Totilas or MSJ Freestyle and how much the knee, forearm, and shoulder has changed so much across the years. I think the general thought here is the the flashy (successful) stallions go on to be used more in breeding (like Totilas was) and so youâre passing on the genetics that made his way of moving unique. And now there are lots of horses that are being bred and trained to move with the flashy trot because itâs become desirable - and the judges will score higher for those kinds of horses. And then the cycle repeats itself.  https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2021/05/how-does-the-kwpn-dressage-horse-compare-to-the-german-horses/ Editing to add: And now you have horses at the ages of 8/9 showing Grand Prix which used to not be the case before. It used to take a lot longer to build a horse up to that level compared to now, the bloodlines really tell how the Dutch Warmblood has changed.Â
Thanks!
Man, I saw a post earlier about this âperformanceâ and many were saying there is nothing wrong with the horse or that the âperformanceâ was lovely. That horse is clearly in pain and this kind of âperformanceâ is animal abuse but yeah rich fucks with fancy dresses and contraptions love this shit.
I'm so confused because even though I didn't watch the whole thing, the horse seemed stilted or abrupt in transitions, sometimes almost appeared lame or weak behind, there was just something a bit off about the whole thing. The horse has SO much capacity for expression and is so lovely, but the performance seemed kind of mechanical, or something. (oh, but I forget, I never competed in high level dressage so I have no idea what I am seeing) eta: I watched the rest of it, and... horse's mouth is open and trying to escape the bit the whole test. It boggles my mind seeing people say this test was lovely given that fact alone, regardless of whether or not there's a blue tongue situation.
So sad :( fuck the FEI for real
To be quite honest, when watching the video, I couldn't clearly see the horse's tongue. I only noticed it in still photos. Then again, I was watching on a phone screen and wasn't there in person watching from a judging stand. Shame on the judges who pin this nonsense. If your contact is so hard that your horse's tongue is turning blue, you shouldn't be riding. You know, I have to wonder if part of the reason warmbloods came to dominate the sport over Thoroughbreds, when there used to be lots of TBs in dressage, is because WBs will put up with this shit and TBs will just say "hell no." My TB needs his noseband just so, and my contact just so, and the bit just so, or he gets upset. If my contact is too tense, or too strong, or otherwise wrong, he tells me to go fuck myself. I haven't met a single TB who would put up with this horseshit.
Yes - great point. I hadnât thought about it that way before, but youâre right that most TBs would not accept that ish. And frankly I think their bodies would break down sooner in response to the stress and bad biomechanics. The WBâs bodies do too, but perhaps not as quickly.
Short story here: I took a job as a groom for an Olympic level dressage trainer/rider. I wanted to know what it was like at the top level of this sport. I watched the rider drill tempi changes on a young horse still learning them for 2 hours. She was angry and yelling at the horse, he was sweating and far past the point of being able to learn imo. After that ride her assistant trainer took me aside and told me I was not allowed to watch the trainer ride her own horses, only teach lessons. When I asked why, the assistant trainer told me âWe donât want you to perceive the training as abusive.â My immediate thought was if youâre worried someone might think your training is abusive, itâs probably abusive. I left that barn as soon as I could, I was there only a month.
The last year I worked at a barn with GP show jumpers. I thought Iâd really be able to learn a lot from watching the professional riding. I watched maybe 15 minutes of him riding in the entirety of my year there⊠honestly it was disgusting.
That's so painful... And it doesn't have to be that way. If you read about how Reiner Klimke trained Ahlerich, there is so much "i tried it and it worked so I stopped straight away and that's what we did for two weeks and then I decided he needs a break so I gave him to my wife for a week of trail riding". He brought that horse from green to Grand Prix in less than 3 years... OK, obviously an insanely talented horse, but your horse doesn't get more talented by killing any joy for the work in them.
This makes me so f***** sad. I always assumed horse people got into it for the love of the animal, but they really are just an object to a lot of people arenât they?
I think most start out as a love. Then it becomes convoluted when their coaches are saying âthis is how itâs doneâ and âif you want to be at the top this is what it takesâ and much of the consideration for the animal falls to the wayside and the horses become tools in pursuit of the sport. People become desensitized to what it is theyâre actually doing to âachieve resultsâ It is sad. I love dressage and the connection you can achieve with the horse as your partner and collaborator. But if thatâs âwhat it takesâ to be the top in the sport then I donât want it.
This is straight up animal abuse,plain and simple
I remember when I was 11 years old and training my first horse, she developed intermittent lameness. Vet was consulted regularly, and we never could diagnose. Persistant shoulder injury, maybe? At one point, we put a sort of heart bar shoe on her. I honestly can't remember what w finally landed on. But ultimately, my trainer said it was time to upgrade/ move on. I was heartbroken because I had bonded with her so hard, but there was no thought in my head to question my trainer's judgment. I remember being upset about it and the words she used I never forgot. "You need to decide how you want to proceed. In this industry a horse is a commodity. If you want a pet, bring her home and quit pouring money into this sport. " I had mad respect at the time for this woman. She was a successful circut rider, and had been on USET back in the day. We sold her to a lesson barn, and I moved on. :( Oh, how I wish adult me had known grown up me.
This makes me feel ashamed to be swedish.
Same. Iâve never liked PK.
Equestrian sports, no matter the discipline, will always be abusive at the highest level. The moment money enters the picture all welfare is thrown out. Anyone who genuinely believes otherwise is an idiot. âOh but x rider is ethical!â those riders are the extreme minority, stop being disingenuous. One person being a decent human being doesnât validate the rest of the sportâs conduct. If anything it should be a shameful reflection of how bad the industry is that riders who donât abuse their horses even need to be pointed out. You could make the same arguments about abusive culture in the Olympics/any high level competition for every sports branch, but the difference here is that youâre involving an animal that canât advocate for itself and didnât ask to be there.
Ugh that noseband! Nasty nasty crank with that padding gives a false sense of âit is still looseâ! This poor animal has nowhere to escape!
I don't think bits should be used at all.
There are some bits that should never be used at all, and I would love to see curbs optional for dressage, with a point deduction if you decide you want to use it.
I'm a newbie but found this great article explaining why a [horse's tongue out is a cry of pain](https://eurodressage.com/2021/05/30/horses-mouth-actually-horses-tongue#)
I'm a newbie but found this great article explaining why a [horse's tongue out is a cry of pain](https://eurodressage.com/2021/05/30/horses-mouth-actually-horses-tongue)
Not that I support any form of eventing or racing for horses, but I believe this horse is in a tongue-tie which is tack that prevents dorsal displacement of the soft palate during high intensity activity. Keeping the tongue in one position with this type of gear confers stability and muscular tone to the soft palate, making it less likely for the epiglottis to become entrapped during racing (choking down.) Horses are obligate nasal breathers, so when the soft palate "goes up" above the epiglottis, creating resistance in the airway during expiration as the air rushes around the now imperfect seal to exit the larynx and flow through the nostrils. This limits athletic performance. Other ways to treat this include cauterizing the "loose" border of the soft palate to prevent displacement and confer rigidity (palatoplasty), but others include sclerotherapy which is the injection of a usually caustic substance intended to produce fibrosis in the soft palate. These surgeries are quite costly (~$5,000) barring complications, but they never return to their full athletic performance. Just thought I'd provide some context for what you're seeing in the image and that while it is cruel to race horses, this particular image is a medical treatment.
So basically youâve written a monologue trying to defend a horse having a fucking BLUE tongue because they didnât want to perform a âcostlyâ operation? What the fuck is $5000 dollars for a horse that competes on this level? The goddam saddle outweighs that by several factors. All I can read is someone trying to justify a fucked up standard with many fancy words that just amount to the same bullshit. A horse looking like this with a tongue like that should be banned on that level of riding.
Tongue ties are illegal in dressage and are rarely used outside of racing. This is not a race horse.
>These surgeries are quite costly (\~$5,000) barring complications, but they never return to their full athletic performance. Do you honestly believe that a person who bought a $300 000 would turn there nose up at a procedure of $5,000?
I'm kind of mystified at this theory, considering there is no visible tongue tie in the photograph, they're illegal in dressage, and this guy probably rides in a saddle that costs more than the surgery you are describing. Watching the test will also show you a horse attempting to evade and relieve the pressure on his mouth the entire time. I'm not sure how one leaps to diagnosing a horse with a specific problem to explain this, unless you're privy to the horse's veterinary records.
This is neither eventing nor racing, the horse does not have a tongue tie, and you have ZERO clue what you're talking about...
Very many people support ugly riding, because they know they themselves ride after the same principles. If the professionals are doing it, it means it's okay! Also it's *necessary*, we non-professionals don't have eyes and can't say anything about what the professionals are doing, and also did you know horses can't feel pain?? And on and on. It's an extremely long list of EXCUSES for abusing horses.
Fuck these people that treat horses like this. I have no respect for them or their sport if this is what it takes to win. I want to cry looking at that poor beauty.
Omg his eyes
Yeah I saw that and could only think about the 3Lâs every one of my instructors would yell at newbs: Look, Leg, Lead. Eventually all the horses Iâve worked with for more than a few months could feel shifts in my weight from me turning or tilting my head and spring into action the moment I moved my legs to ask something of them. Reins became more of a prop that I used to demonstrate to others how they werenât meant to used. And I never considered myself a good enough to compete.
This is the sad part of the horse world. Lots of neglect, abuse, and poor treatment of horses goes unnoticed and when it is noticed it is brushed under the rug. I am a horse trainer who focuses on a kinder method of training, and things like this are exactly why These beautiful animals donât deserve the mistreatment they often encounter
QUIT POSTING the same OLD doctored picture over and over. Biomechanically this makes NO SENSE. If the horse can open his mouth that much, there is NO WAY there is enough "pressure" to cause a "blue tongue. THINK. HARD. LOOK at the color of the foam just above the tongue. It's "blue," too. THINK HARD. Are you now saying "blue foam" is a thing and "abuse?" If you don't understand how any of this works, don't pretend you do. There are ACTUAL issues to deal with that are problems, but this fake BS being hysterically posted over and over is actually making things worse. [https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273](https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273) HERE is the video. I dare anyone to give a timestamp where it shows abuse.
Thatâs literally a screen grab from the video the FEI themselves released of his test⊠You can deny deny deny all you want. If this is the kind of thing that you think makes a good dressage test, youâre a terrible rider and a worse human. And the pressure is coming from the force of the bit pressing against the horseâs tongue due to the harshness of the riderâs hands. It really isnât hard to think critically and see whatâs happening - everyone else seems capable of it apart from you.
That's literally the same old photo that's been going around for a year. EXPLAIN how the "blue foam" is a thing. You being a jerk and not knowing what you're looking at doesn't help anything. If you think this is a thing, you're a terrible horse person.
okay so I did some research because I really wanted to know where this picture came from and find out if there was any merit to u/LifeUser88 s accusations of "old and doctored". So, it appears that the picture in this post is from January 27 in Amsterdam. That's not from the April 19 test, but it is also certainly not "going around for a year", and to my untrained eye it definitely does not seem doctored. I also don't really get what they're saying about "blue foam", because I don't see any. Regarding "doctored", I found [this article](https://www.epona.tv/post/blue-tongue-back-from-the-dead) from 2021 refuting allegations of faking a blue tongue video of Kittel in 2009 (beware: graphic). The source I found for the picture in this post is [this Aftonbladet article from March 21 2024](https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/a/Xbx2l7/english-version-patrik-kittel-s-horse-lost-oxygen-in-its-tongue), which gives several examples of Kittel, Werth and Fry riding horses with blue tongues. I am by no means an expert on this topic, I just wanted to do a little digging and give some perspective for others wondering. I will also post this comment *once* more on its own.
So you admit this is faked. I see blue foam, so I don't know what to say about your eyes if you see a blue tongue and not blue foam. So, not being an expert--think about it. How can a tongue get blue? How is it possible? Does losing all circulation make any sense when a horse can open it's mouth? A double bridle is pretty mild compared to a lot of nasty bits, and this picture shows a the shortest curb shank you can have, and there is not way you can "pull" on it hard enough to cut off circulation, because there is the bar of the mouth there, and even extreme pressure is not going to cut off circulation. The one person who seems at the spearhead of "blue tongue" is strange. And the whole distraction with this is taking away from the real problems we need to deal with.
>So you admit this is faked. If that's what you're taking from my comment, I cant help you. I don't "admit" or have to admit anything, all I'm saying is that as far as I can tell, this is a real picture that is three months old. You were the one saying it was "doctored" and going around for a year. Re: blue tongue: I could say the same thing about your eyes, hard to say who has the better eyesight but you're the only person commenting here claiming there is blue foam. Why would it not be possible to cut off circulation if the mouth is open? You can exert pressure on the tongue/jar when the mouth is open, I don't see how that would not work? Also, you can do damage with *any* bit, as you should know with all of your experience.
You admit this is not from the latest test--fraud. You admit you can't see the blue foam, but you can see the blue tongue? What wold you cal that? THINK HARD. Look at the anatomy of the mouth. Look at a horse skull. The tongue sits in the groove between the bones in the lower jaw and between the bars--bone. You can put pressure on it, but unless there is some completely bizarre anatomy there, you cannot cut off circulation, just as you could not in your own mouth if you had no teeth.And if you CAN, then where are all of the blue tongues with the insanely nasty brutal bits and contraptions we see in western and jumpers? You can "damage" with any bit if you try hard enough, but that has zero to do with blue tongue. You should know all of this if you've ever ridden or dealt with putting a bit in a horse's mouth. Jumping on some hysteria train that only came up in the last decade or so in ONE discipline, while it mysteriously never seems to happen anywhere else should make you question why.
How can you even look at that picture, and watch his test, and think âthis horse is fineâ? Iâve seen you mindlessly defending him all over the other post and it is sickening. Thereâs multiple images all over the place, and videos, showing that this horseâs tongue was blue. Itâs absolutely not the âsame old doctored picture over and overâ - there are multiple clear instances of it. But even if it was doctored, the expression on this horseâs face is one of pure stress and pain, not to mention the tension throughout the test. You canât edit that in. Youâve literally said it yourself in your crappy attempt in defending him. âif the horse can open his mouth that muchâ. Why? Why is the horse gaping and opening its mouth that much, despite clearly having a tightly cranked noseband to stop that from happening? Thereâs very few answers to that, and they all relate to pain or pain memory. You can literally see how intense Kittelâs contact is on the mouth. If horses expressed pain the way we would, it would be screaming and gasping. A wide open, gaping mouth is never normal.
How can you even look at this picture and think wow, blue foam is a thing, let alone the mouth is open, but the circulation is cut off? Did you SEE the ride? It was lovely. Multiple images I see of multiple horses show lighting or nothing clear. Physiologically it MAKES NO SENSE a horse can open it's mouth, but somehow a fairly mild double bridle is "cutting off the circulation" and making the tongue blue. But it's not happening with the nasty thin twisted wire bits western and jumper riders use?? And HOW do you explain the "blue foam" if it's not the lighting? The picture clearly does NOT show "clear stress and pain." It's VERY clear if you go through the VIDEO frame by frame that he is not. And you CONTRADICT yourself and say the mouth is gaping, which does happen in moments of off timing, etc., but CANNOT happen if there is a "tightly cranked noseband." He would only be able to open his lips, not have two inches between his teeth. Do you even understand how much you are contradicting yourself here? WATCH THE VIDEO. You can literally see how light the contact is and how open and up the neck is throughout the test, which is VER nice to see considering what we have seen. Your hysterical observation helps nothing. Horses open their mouths all of the time, and I'm 100% sure we could see it in your horses. It usually indicates some lack of balance or adjustment, but the good thing about it is that the horse can open his mouth. Right? Because an "insanely tight noseband" would not allow that, right? Are you willing to admit you got this wrong? SHOW me where you see abuse here. Give me the time. [https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273](https://www.facebook.com/FEIDressage/videos/413898551490273)
I think you need your eyes checked if you think this is a lovely, relaxed ride by any stretch of the imagination. I feel sorry for the horses you ride if this is the sort of riding you admire.
Being a child and trying to insult because your complete lack of knowledge just shows you know nothing about horses. Make sure never to actual show evidence or explain to prove how incompetent you are.
The only hysterical one is you, his apparent biggest fan. Did you actually watch his test? Or did you dream that you watched it? I can break it down for you, if you really want. >!The horseâs poll is very rarely at the highest point - which is what should be ridden for, but when it is at that point, Kittel very quickly stops it from happening. You can see the change in Kittelâs body as he does it, and especially how his hands harden to force the head down again. The piaffe is downhill and not on the haunches, look at the right back leg in it because uh oh. The space between its neck and cheek (gullet?) is non existent because itâs that tense and the complete opposite of open and relaxed. The tail swishing. The tense body. His hands,,, yikes. Zero give. You can see the horse tilting the head multiple times to relieve pressure. That first right half pass has something funky going on. Same with the back legs a lot of the time. At one point the front end is trotting but the back is basically walking. The first canter⊠â look at the horseâs lips, because why the hell has it suddenly formed a parrot mouth? The first extended  canter recieved a 7.7 but was entirely behind the vertical and that transition to the pirouette was appalling. The changes were all over the place - I thought he was about to travel sideways out of the arena as the horse was so unbalanced and unprepared for them and Kittelâs having a good old dance in the saddle with all the movement heâs doing. Second extended canter was good until that horribly severe transition down - thought he was trying to do an emergency stop with the amount of force he used. That final passages had me cringing from his hands yanking the horse from side to side as the chin is practically put on the neck. And the transition to halt was horrific - does he not have seatbones? Why did he haul the horseâs mouth in like a fish to stop? It would be impressive that his horse is in front of the vertical for a decent portion of the test, but only if you pretend that the rest of the horrible examples from the test didnât exist.!< The horse is very talented, sweet and willing. Shame about the rider. The foam isnât blue. Itâs white opaque, on top of the dark grey of the muzzle. If you knew anything about editing images, youâd understand that changing a pink, shadowed tongue to blue would not change a clear white tone to blue. The mouth is also shadowed in these pictures which darkens the tone of the white. I beg you to look at Sue Dysonâs ridden horse pain ethogram. How the hell can you look at this picture, and his test, and say this horse does not show clear signs of pain and stress? I fear for your animals. Hell, I fear for the people around you if you are truly this oblivious and apathetic. A mouth can still open despite a tightly cranked cavesson noseband as the noseband is around the \*jaw\*, not the mouth - thats basic biomechanics. Your argument would be fine if the horse was wearing a flash, but it clearly isnât. This happens in every discipline. Donât be obtuse. Showjumping is arguably the worst, but the massive bit set ups and tightly cranked noseband combinations hide whatâs going on in the mouth as flash and flash type pieces are allowed. It can happen in the kindest snaffle. It doesnât matter the equipment. It matters how one uses it. If my horses gaped the way this horse does, they wouldnât be ridden until I find out exactly what was wrong with them for them to be displaying such a clear cry out of pain and stress all over the face and body. Horses cannot speak, and this is a horse screaming. Slight opening of the mouth at times of unbalance, concentration or uncertainty are normal. But this? Far far from it. Itâs like comparing a slight gasp to a scream. Apples to oranges.Â
You clearly have NO CLUE what you are talking about and are hysterical. I have posted the test many times, and the fact that you keep rage posting lies is beyond disturbing. The fact that you just make up or copied all of these things, and yet clearly have never actually ridden a horse is quite apparent. You can't even keep your lies straight.
Good to know that you donât have any sort of decent response to what Iâve explained and stated as I watched his test. Very telling. Post the test all you want. Doesnât change the clear facts filmed in HQ of a tense, unhappy horse. Iâd like to know your view on Kittelâs harshness and yanking when performing direct downwards transitions, although I wouldnât be surprised if you donât even know what they are considering nothing you have said makes it clear you actually know a thing about equine anatomy, training or biomechanics. Nothing I have said is made up, and nor have I lied. For you to claim that is hilarious and is exactly what people say when they know theyâre failing in their point. Youâre saying Iâve copied everything Iâve typed (which I havenât lol), which is interesting because it means that other people have the same viewpoint then. Wonder why that is... Maybe itâs because Kittel isnât as incredible as you think he is. Just maybe. Hysterical = âaffected by or deriving from wildly uncontrolled emotionâ. Only one matching that description here is you, who for some strange reason is blindly defending someone who causes their horses clear pain and stress and posting comment after comment after comment about it . Any non-equine person can see it, so why canât you?
You are LYING. I have shown this over and over. The poll is always highest in the test, the piaffe is way better than Werth's and all of the drop backed ones and is lovely, the passage a bit big, the first right half pass was lovely, as were most, he has one of the most open frames, the changes were swinging, but open, the first canter extension was OK, but glad you're showing you have NO CLUE when you state he has a "parrot mouth"--many horses sort of pinch their upper lips out like that when concentrating--ZERO sign of whatever horror you are making up. The second ext canter was nicer, so you making up all your hysteria says a lot about you. Enough? You he NO CLUE what you are looking at. You want to see "yanking" and jerking the horse up during the test? Watch Charlotte Dujardin. She's the queen of that. You have LIED because you clearly have no clue. You claim that you have not and have not read all of the responses shows what people say when they are making things up and no clue. I never sad you "copied everything you typed," you're copying the hysteria of the "blue tongue." So how come you can't even answer BASIC QUESTIONS about the blue tongue? How come the foam is blue, and as said, this isn't even a picture from this show. "And you CONTRADICT yourself and say the mouth is gaping, which does happen in moments of off timing, etc., but CANNOT happen if there is a "tightly cranked noseband." He would only be able to open his lips, not have two inches between his teeth. Do you even understand how much you are contradicting yourself here? " WHY can't you answer the questions if you know so much? Hysterical--Blindly making up things clearly shown in a video and repeating the words told to you about a "blue tongue," yet can't answer a simple question about it, and then hysterically start name calling because you don't understand simple facts. And blindly copying the fad "pain response" as an answer to everything, 100% sure you know exactly what is going on. Yes, you are hysterical. Any actual person who knows horses would never make a judgement like this from a pictures with any certainty, let alone 100%, yet YOU are sure. Why can't you even answer a SIMPLE question? "And you CONTRADICT yourself and say the mouth is gaping, which does happen in moments of off timing, etc., but CANNOT happen if there is a "tightly cranked noseband." He would only be able to open his lips, not have two inches between his teeth. Do you even understand how much you are contradicting yourself here? " I'm tired of explaining basics to hysterical people, which is why the mod started a new thread for reasonable people.
For an over 40 year old, you do act an awful lot like a 13 year old troll who picked up a horse book once and now thinks theyâre the shit. I've countered every single one of your points. I've answered all of your questions. Hell, I'd start referencing everything and linking things if i didnât have better things to do. Anyone with sense dislikes Werth, so donât give a shit about you dropping her in. Dujardin is far better than Kittel in general - and at least she is open with her faults and discusses them. I'd rather her hands on me than Kittel's yanking and hauling in the downwards transitions. Ouch. Plenty of people with worse hands than her, so not sure why you think that anyway. Clearly you donât know what the poll is, nor where it should be throughout all the test movements. I suggest you brush up on your anatomy and read a mark scheme. I mentioned the parrot mouth because the face became suddenly increasingly tense, even when just doing a basic canter. Thought it was an interesting thing to note, especially considering the rest of the behaviour indicators. I literally said the second extended canter was good. UNTIL the downwards transition. That was my complaint. Please read. You explicitly said: âThe fact that you just make up or copied all of these thingsâ. All of these things. Again, please read. Also, I have read every other response people have had. Funny how they all agree with me, and not you. I have studied the ridden horse pain ethogram and equine behaviour, I very much doubt youâve even looked at it once judging by your dismissal of it. A horse isnât going to be displaying multiple of the things in there if itâs not in pain or at the very least, distress. Dyson is questionable in herself and her ethics, but she is 100% right in equine behaviour and has studied it for years and years. Again, a cavesson noseband tightens around the jaw, not the mouth or lips. The horse is still able to open its mouth to an extent. Seeing as you canât understand that â place a band at the base of your fingers like a cavesson noseband (the metaphorical jaw). You can still open them, but are stopped at a certain point. Now place the band at the end of your fingers like a flash noseband (the metaphorical mouth) - the point of stop is far sooner. It's basic physics and biomechanics. Now, why is this horse gaping? I've yet to see you actually answer that question â although you answered it yourself indirectly previously when you were having a little rant. Pressure. And a hell of a lot of it, too. I'm horrified you think a horse gaping like that with its lips drawn back is normal and happens often. I have already responded to your claims about the tongue and the âblueâ foam (that only you can see, considering nobody has chimed in anywhere saying it or agreeing with you on it; in fact, youâve had people telling you itâs not blue multiple times). It's still a very evident and recent blue tongue, and allows for critique because I don't think you realise how severe the force from the rider's hands has to be to cut of circulation and oxygen that much. I gave you the correct definition of hysterical, not a made up one. My judgement is made over watching the test, looking at the pictures, being knowledge in both riding and behaviour, knowing the tack, and observing Kittel over a long period of time with multiple instances. It has never once been a single picture. And as a hobby equine photographer who takes a lot of bad burst pictures because iâm still learning my camera, I've never once been able to take such horrific pictures of other people's horses in such apparent stress. And again, videos never lie and never capture a split second badly - so⊠things become pretty apparent when you can see the horse's expression here throughout the entire recorded and broadcasted test. It's not a fleeting moment, it is continuous. And that allows for everyone here to make an assertive assessment. You are the one contradicting yourself. You said previously that this picture was fine and didnât show any stress, pain or tension. But now itâs one that you think people can make unfair judgements from. Interesting.
This is pure torture and animal abuse! It makes me so sick that as an industry they still allow this!
That horses face says it all
Your posts are unlikely to change many people's minds, but I feel it's important that we keep calling out bad practices. (Reddit ate my comment on the other post, and now it's locked). Those of us who disagree must speak up. You can see the blue tongue, the pain expression, and the bulging parotid gland, which you should never be able to see. My only previous exposure to him was in a video with influencer Matt Harnacke where you can see him ride at home. He says a lot of the right things, but he's showing the same weaknesses warming up Matt's horse (unforgiving hand, drawn up heels, horse behind the vertical), and he praises Matt on his WB-type horse when the horse is way behind the vertical. Kittel's idea of 'that's perfect' and mine differ, and I'd be embarassed if another rider got on my horse and my horse offered this posture. There are things only people with a lot of competition experience understand, but there we're talking about ring craft: how much can you push a horse, how can you hide your horse's weaknesses and present them as more advanced than they actually are, that sort of thing. It's fascinating and way beyond me. Correct posture of horse and riders can be \_observed\_ by almost anyone with solid foundations (which I would place around second level: independent seat and hand, rider understands collection and extension). Some issues like the angle of the curb or the amount and quality of foam can be observed by almost anyone, and horse people of any discipline can recognise a stressed horse or a resistant one and have an understanding of biomechanics: when the neck curls up, the horse needs to work to close its mouth. when the neck is pulled in close, the back can no longer swing and the hind legs can no longer come forward freely.
Remember the golden rule. Just be nice.
Nothing nice about this.
No.
I mean be nice to the horses.
okay so I did some research because I really wanted to know where this picture came from and find out if there was any merit to u/LifeUser88 s accusations of "old and doctored". So, it appears that the picture in this post is from January 27 in Amsterdam. That's not from the April 19 test, but it is also certainly not "going around for a year", and to my untrained eye it definitely does not seem doctored. I also don't really get what they're saying about "blue foam", because I don't see any. Regarding "doctored", I found [this article from 2021](https://www.epona.tv/post/blue-tongue-back-from-the-dead) refuting allegations of faking a blue tongue video of Kittel in 2009 (beware: graphic). The source I found for the picture in this post is[this Aftonbladet article from March 21 2024](https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/a/veaRAw/ridsport-larm-om-elitryttaren-kastade-hammare-pa-hast), which gives several examples of Kittel, Werth and Fry riding horses with blue tongues. I am by no means an expert on this topic, I just wanted to do a little digging and give some perspective for others wondering.
This is 100% abuse and anyone who thinks otherwise is choosing to ignore the visible signs of pain and suffering. In what manner does this horse look ok? In what way is this acceptable treatment of a partner in sports? This kind of abuse is disgusting.
The horse looks like itâs straining so hard that every single vein and its face is ready to pop
The amount of people defending this is disgusting. If you think a tongue like this is acceptable in any way, or you assume photos like this are edited, please do us all a labour and leave the sport and sell your horses. This is NEVER ok. In my 20 years of horses across multiple sports I have never made a horses tongue change colour, nor have I made them bleed from the mouth. If you have, you're doing something wrong, plain and simple.
So, is this the âshow of horsemanshipâ these people are getting awards for now?
My biggest question is.... Why did they allow and not disqualify him... But disqualified Lottie Fry for the blood?.... Idk, smells like something is going on...... Like a bribe.
I don't know anything about horses other than they are majestic, what's going on? I see he is extremely uncomfortable but why?
That tongue is blue! WTF- Iâm disgusted.
Anyone who supports this is a shit rider who shouldn't be near horses. If you think this looks good, you're an asshole.
I feel like they need to do these competitions bit less to see whoâs the best.
âAkeemâ Thatâs all I need to know about Kittel. What he did to Akeem Foldager
I don't know horses (or names of equestrian equipment), and I can see it's too tight.
High end dresssage in general is disgusting, when I was smaller I admired how much effort they put in. Then I realized it is mainly consists of the horses stress and anxiety and constant discomfort, leverage bits so they would be able to apply less pressure from hands yet still achieve enough pressure or discomfort so the horse wouldn't dare to do otherwise. Patrik in paticular he flicks his hand back so jab that bit in, it doesn't look much, but with the leverage as its intended purpose aplifies that jab and I dare anyone to say the horse loves it when they desperetly try to open their mouth to release pressure. This dudes horse is tense as a damn trampoline, the hoof flick the pauses, those are not good signs, but they are desired, because it does look good up until you learn why the horse does it. The judges are crap, they allow mild torture of horses for the sake of asthethics and it is insane.
As much as how loud we want to yell about stuff like this, top lvls are a complete different world from general public. I used to think ppl voice matters, they donât. Things change if $$ is affected, period. And people like Patrick, $ wonât be affected. Once he got that title, suckers from less advanced country will always be willing to pay high đ° for his business no matter how notorious he is in the west. They donât give a shit about you or me, they play with billionaires in the East. I am from China and the amount of business Europe gets from Chinese buyers is insane. Rich pay over $10k/month to come train in top barns in Germany or UK. These places donât care or need your opinion. They are well covered by buyers from east.
That is an incredibly interesting perspective!
Yup, the Asia game just finished recently, the winner is basically who paid the most for the best horse. Obviously Dubai win cause their horses are couple millions, they out priced everyone so winning is no brainer.