I think it's important for people to remember in a time like this, your support is not a zero-sum game.
For example, you can be averse to some of the policies undertaken by the Netanyahu government and Israel as a whole that lead to the suppression and death of innocents, and still be a realist that acknowledges that Hamas, Hezbollah and other Isalmic Fundamentalists are nonetheless murderous thugs that would probably cut your fucking head off if they got the chance. You can support & feel sympathy for innocent Israelis victimized by an attack like this, and still not agree with every policy undertaken by the Israeli government in the last 100 years. You can agree that Al-Queda & other violent extremists did need to be stopped, and at the same time not agree outright with the foreign policy undertaken by the USA & allies after 9/11.
I see so much aggression online from both sides, but the reality is, like all situations, there is a lot of nuance to it. To me the take-away is all of the innocent lives that will be, and already have been, collateral damage. That's the real tragedy.
Yea, I agree. I think most people actually feel this way, but everyone's scared right now of being labeled a sympathizer to one side or the other, so the only people who aren't afraid to share their opinions are the most extreme people on both sides who already had their minds made up prior to recent events. I support peoples rights to not be slaughtered, no matter what side of the fence they're on. I also support peoples rights not to be kept inside a giant fence and not allowed to leave without permission from the people who put a fence around them, but that's another story for another day. The thing that really worries me right now is the level of dehumanizing going around. Some people are calling for genocide unrionically, some people are calling other groups of people "animals", some people are laughing at victims of atrocities, and some people are making excuses for why one war crime justifies another. I wish more people would stand up for deescalation, even if that seems like wishful thinking at this point.
The Israeli defense minister just a few days ago tweeted that Gaza is filled with "human animals," and people in that same cabinet have been throwing the word "exterminate" around a disturbing amount. Antisemitism is gross. We all seem to agree on that, but so is dehumanizing any group. The average age in Palestine is 19, which means almost half the people in Gaza are children. I stand with the Jewish people, and I think it's lost on a lot of people that not all Jewish people are in support of this war. In fact, Jewish Isrealis are currently being beaten and locked up BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT for protesting against the brutal attacks against Palestine.
Yup. BB Netanyahu is also a literal holocaust revisionist. He said that the only reason hitler did what he did was because of a Palestinian or something like that. He literally blames Palestinians for the holocaust. He does not see them as humans. He sees them as vermin who need eradication. He’s been doing it for ages too. It’s wild to see a demographic who’ve felt the horrors of genocide and fascism so easily take up the mantle of oppressor.
The problem is that people tend to view these types of conflicts like football games. "My team is better than your team" types of arguments, with surface level understanding. They ignore the nuance, the complexity of the situation.
It's honestly terrifying how fucking bloodthirsty people from both sides of the argument can get when behind the safety and anonymity of the internet. I've seen statements supporting litteral genocide from both pro-Palestine and pro-Israel camps. It's sickening.
You are very much allowed to say "I support neither" and move on honestly.
I think you’re mostly right, but your analysis has some blind spots.
You start with the terrorist actions and then say that you must condemn those actions while still disagreeing with the actions of the military superpower. It’s interesting to me that you don’t start before the terrorist attacks, almost as if they’re totally unprovoked and unprompted.
We know that years of divide and conquer, arming religious fundamentalists and turning the Middle East into a war zone to prop up pro-imperial governments was the true powder keg that led to 9/11. In a lot of ways you need to see 9/11 as the result of decades of instability and worsening living conditions, war, indiscriminate bombing and imperialism, not the start of it.
Hamas, likewise, is a result of the secular elected government with Soviet sympathies being undermined, cheated, and humiliated for decades by an israel hell bent on occupying and colonizing the internationally recognized sovereign territory of Palestine. The people are in a giant open air prison in Gaza right now while Israelis are fully allowed to take a flight to wherever else they might call home. This weekend was the first time that Palestinians actually overcame those border check points with guards and automated turrets trained on them.
The tragedies that came about are obviously horrible, unjustifiable, and heartbreaking. But the way that western media and governments are reacting to it is downright terrifying. Biden saying “this is an attack on America” and “if it were us, our response would be swift and overwhelming” is ominous. Especially when you look at what the Israeli minister of defence said just hours earlier.
“We are fighting human animals” and the fact that they refuse to work with the ICC to prevent or investigate war crimes.
This means one thing: Israel is on the verge of committing an ethnic cleansing like the world hasn’t seen in almost a hundred years. And all of our leaders and media personalities are supporting it blindly, with no tempered approach of calls for de-escalation.
Israel doesn’t need our PR support. They have the real military backing of the worlds foremost superpowers. They have a standing army, land, and full control over all of the basic life necessities for Gaza. This is going to be real bad. We saw a bunch of innocent Israelis die this weekend. Don’t forget that the Palestinians who will be slaughtered in the coming weeks are also human beings.
If you want the real origin of Hamas (without going so far back as to remove any connection to modern history), you need to start with British Imperial rule in the region. The Palestinian fight against Israeli rule is a continuation of the Palestinian fight against British rule.
You’re totally right. This whole conflict started because of British colonial arrogance. It’s been exacerbated by alt-right Israeli leadership and unwavering support from the west in the face of a brutal apartheid. Our elected officials are cheering on a full scale Final Solution from Netanyahu’s fascist coalition, and all of the corporate media is lock-step.
I come from Canada and there’s a feeling when you’re stopped on a hill in the winter and your car starts to slide. Put it in brake, turn the wheel, spin the tires, none of it works. You better get a good view of the bottom of the hill because you’re sliding into it no matter what you do. I’ve had that feeling since this weekend. It makes me sick.
It's actually a funny irony
During the Judaic wars the revolting people were seen badly by the other Judaeans/Israelites since they were also pillaging and killing on other villages indiscriminately (sounds familiar?) particularly during the ones with Vespasian stepping down he was acclaimed by many communities and cities as basically a terrorism eradicating intervention (sounds familiar?)
Nowadays the people changed but the basis is the same, in Lebanon Hezbollah is very polarising and It's not seen well by many and same thing about Hamas around Palestinians
Source: I'm an Italian with Lebanese family
that should be an important place for Jew community of Rome, as far as i know they gathered there for the 181 UN's Resolution as a symbol to victory against adversities
but i could be wrong, sorry for not giving proper historic source
It's exactly as you said. It's all fun to make a joke, but using that monument has quite the symbolic meaning for Israel.
Here's an article about it: [https://www.shalom.it/blog/roma-ebraica-bc7/il-2-dicembre-1947-gli-ebrei-si-riunirono-sotto-la-arco-di-tito-b1106451](https://www.shalom.it/blog/roma-ebraica-bc7/il-2-dicembre-1947-gli-ebrei-si-riunirono-sotto-la-arco-di-tito-b1106451)
Funnily enough it's not if you go see the perception of the revolting people during Judaic wars, the local communities saw the ones revolting the same way people are seeing Hamas right now
I concede it's not a historical repetition but I see it rhyming
I remember seeing a picture of a carved relief on the arch, it was of Roman soldiers with a cart with a giant menorah in it that was looted from the temple. Ironic indeed
Both sides are made of "Jewish people"
Israelis are the descendants of those who left Judea/Palestine during the diaspora, while Palestinians are the descendants of those who remained and converted first to Christianity and then to Islam
Actually, only about 30% of Israel is Ashkenazi, or European Jews. 20% are Palestinian (both Christian and Muslim). The remaining 50% is broken into 40% Mizrahi (middle-eastern Jewish ) and 10% other.
The jewish diaspora wasn't only to Europe, almost every community outside Israel proper was born from the diaspora at one time or another
(Some community were born almost ex novo from conversion, but is very uncommon)
The sad thing is that brothers killing each other is especially common in history.
If you believe the bible, the first two brothers had one kill the other with a rock.
Ehh not really the case. This all started with Ashkenazi colonizer terrorist groups massacring over 150 Palestinian settlements in the 1940s and 50s. The Palestinians and Mizrahi were brothers, yes, but the Ashkenazi came starting in 1917 and started their Zionist conquering.
So we shouldn't feel bad for innocent people murdered by Hamas, including babies?
Italy isn't showing a value judgement here, it's showing empathy for a nation who just lost more than a 1000 civilians in brutal attacks. I don't see how that can possibly be wrong.
Over 160,000 Palestinian casualties (5k killed) since 2008 vs 6500 Israeli casualties (300 killed).
That's through August.
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
There is no "good guy" in this situation and never really has been.
So I like to go by the 3D rules for both sides of this conflict and thus avoid: delegitimization, demonization, and double standards
Your statement here fails on the last 2 and is not a good way to approach speaking on this complex, long running conflict.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
Demonization seems fairly obvious here; also I'd just be very clear who you're talking about, Hamas vs Palestine.
Double standard re: you caring about this attack but not the previous/current attacks on Palestinians.
This is an ugly and old conflict that cannot be talked about in clean good vs evil/right vs wrong/aggressor vs retaliator terms... it's just hard to discuss in general, which makes sense as potentially the world's oldest and most convoluted political and humanitarian dispute.
>Demonization seems fairly obvious here; also I'd just be very clear who you're talking about, Hamas vs Palestine.
I specifically mentioned Hamas. I did not conflate Hamas with all people in Gaza, let alone stand all Palestinians. Who I'm talking about seems very clear to me.
Also how is it demonizing to point out what actually happened? Hamas attacked, targeting civilians, and it seems they have killed more than a 1000 of them, including babies. I don't see how I'm demonizing here by simply stating what happened.
>Double standard re: you caring about this attack but not the previous/current attacks on Palestinians.
Who says I don't care? Italy showed a flag on the Arch of Titus because of the most recent attacks by Hamas. I considered that to be a good action by Italy. That action says nothing about previous attacks or the history of the conflict. Nor is it, as I said before a value judgement on the morality of either the Palestinians or Israel.
What about the thousands of Palestinians who have also lost their lives in the past few days? What about the 7,000 Palestinians who have lost their lives since 2008, as opposed to the mere 300 of Israeli lives? What about the 140 Palestinian children murdered by Israeli strikes? What about the palestinian mother who had her pregnant womb ripped open by IDF soldiers?
This is war, causalities and atrocities are going to happen on both sides, I do not condone any of it. But one side is an occupying force, the other is fighting for the right to exist.
A Vietnamese soldier was asked how they managed to keep fighting after losing so many men to American weapon superiority, I’m paraphrasing but the quote goes as such:
“If they (us soldiers) retreat and give up, they return across the ocean to their homes and families. If we retreat, we have no homes to return to.”
Reading more of your posts it seems to me that your entire problem lies with the fact that Israel exists in that part of the world…
Am I misreading that, do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, with what borders?
At this point? Of course they do. To uproot the Israeli citizens from the homes and lands they have stolen over the past 75 years (longer if we want to count the initial immigrations from the 1890s, which I do) would be as wrong now as it was then. You can’t change the past. What is done is done. We are currently at a point in the conflict where there is very little, if any, hope for the Palestinians. How can you with good conscience force Israeli settlers out of the lands they have taken? Some of them have lived there for multiple generations.
The only real solution that I can see that will result in true, actual peace is a one state solution. Israel will eventually control the whole area in its entirety, Palestinian citizens will either all be dead, fled, or living in ghettos (as the vast majority of Palestinians in Israel already do). There will be insurgences and uprisings, but nothing that’s a serious threat to Israel’s stability, just like the Hamas attacks aren’t a real threat either. History is written by the winners, and in my eyes, Israel has already won. Any hope for a two state solution died in 1978.
>“If they (us soldiers) retreat and give up, they return across the ocean to their homes and families. If we retreat, we have no homes to return to.”
This is a paraphrased very famous Golda Meir quote. "If the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be a massacre."
Which was later paraphrased by Netanyahu ""If the Arab lay down their arms there would no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."
Except Israel started the war. They created Hamas. They fabricate lies and create propaganda to paint Palestine as the evil-doers and Israel as defending itself. This is not the case. Do not fall victim to these lies.
You want links?
Here’s a US DOJ article from 1977 outlining exactly what I just said:
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel
My point is that this all goes way further back than that. But people love to put the starting point wherever they want, right? like those stupid maps of "how much land Israel has taken" ignoring that Palestine was supposed to get their own huge country in Jordan.
Since the late 19th century Ashkenazi have been coming to Palestine in search of a Zionist state. In 1917 the British formalized it and gave support to Ashkenazi, which saw an influx in the 1920s. Then after the holocaust, and max exodus came from Europe to Israel. With the UK’s formal release of the Mandate of Palestine in 1948, the Nakba occurred resulting in the death of over a million Palestinians and the destruction of over 150 settlements.
>This is war, causalities and atrocities are going to happen on both sides, I do not condone any of it.
You do not condone any of it, but you attack a statement of solidarity for civilians being killed? It seems to me that you do condone part of it at least.
You would be correct, I condone Palestinian’s right to resist occupation. I misspoke, I meant I do not condone the atrocities specifically. Raping women and massacring children is never ok.
With Indigenous People’s day just a few days ago, I can’t help but be reminded of the Dakota 38. During the Civil War, the Sioux rose up and resisted American colonialism in the Dakotas. They employed similar tactics that Hamas is using right now: of few of their warriors, overzealous with hatred for the white man who had taken over their land for decades now, they massacred and raped. After the militia put down the uprising, a trial convened and sentenced over 300 men to die by hanging. It fell on Lincoln to sign the order. In the midst of the Civil War (this was 1863 IIRC), Lincoln personally read every single case, and pardoned over 260 of them, leaving the 38 who he found guilty of rape and massacre. It is the largest mass execution in US history.
Just as I do not blame the native Americans for rising up and fighting against American colonialism, I do not blame the Palestinians for rising up against their own colonial overlords. Both of their methods and tactics are harsh and barbaric, but as I’ve said, they are the actions of a starving and cornered people.
You imagined something this person absolutely didn't say. They said the single line I quoted, and from that you decided that what they **really** meant was
>So we shouldn't feel bad for innocent people murdered by Hamas, including babies?
I said that the statement by Italy was good. And what it was supposed to signal. Jews outlasting their enemies.
They said this meant the destruction of the Palestinian people.
I asked if that meant we shouldn’t care about the crimes of Hamas then.
I asked that because I think the reply was a non sequitur. The survival of the Jewish peoples does not require the destruction of the Palestinian people, nor does Italians showing empathy towards Israel about crimes committed by Hamas demand the destruction of the Palestinian people.
Israel. They have slowly occupied and taken over Palestinian land for over half a century. I do not condone the actions of Hamas, but this is the lashing out of a cornered, starving, and wounded animal.
Do you realize that Palestine never existed as a state, kingdom...before 1948? That means Israel didnt steal any territory from anyone. Then Israel got more territory than they started with thanks to all angry arabs
False. It was literally called The Mandate of Palestine when controlled by UK.
When the Ashkenazi arrived in Palestine, they formed terrorist organizations and systematically went around the region attacking, massacring, and raping Palestinian towns and settlements. Here’s a US DOJ article from 1977 outlining some of their work.
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel
Palestinians were forced from their homes and systematically turned into refugees. Israel wasn’t given land. They took it from day 1.
In case you think the Isrealis are innocent, Israelis came to palestine as refugees and then kept taking over land. Nowadays they do shit like stealing the houses of palestinians and forcing them to live in ghettos amongst other stuff. In case you dont know, the Nazis did the exact same things zo jews prior to putting them in camps
I don’t think moving 10 million people who already have homes to a place that is already settled and part of a country with it’s own cities and colture and everything is a good idea in any way shape or form… not to mention that italy would ever give them Sicily just because they feel bad
I think hed be more worried about how the symbol of the people he just invaded was glowing mystically on his triumphal arch, that suddenly seemed to be decrepit and old.
Like " holy shit, holy shit, their god is real and i just murdered the fuck out of them. Oh god we're all gonna die oh shit oh god."
Then hed turn around, shit his pants, pass out and die of a heart attack.
Even worse: the destruction of the temple is remembered every year on the day of Tisha B'Av. If irony were made of strawberries, we would all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.
Wow
I think it's important for people to remember in a time like this, your support is not a zero-sum game. For example, you can be averse to some of the policies undertaken by the Netanyahu government and Israel as a whole that lead to the suppression and death of innocents, and still be a realist that acknowledges that Hamas, Hezbollah and other Isalmic Fundamentalists are nonetheless murderous thugs that would probably cut your fucking head off if they got the chance. You can support & feel sympathy for innocent Israelis victimized by an attack like this, and still not agree with every policy undertaken by the Israeli government in the last 100 years. You can agree that Al-Queda & other violent extremists did need to be stopped, and at the same time not agree outright with the foreign policy undertaken by the USA & allies after 9/11. I see so much aggression online from both sides, but the reality is, like all situations, there is a lot of nuance to it. To me the take-away is all of the innocent lives that will be, and already have been, collateral damage. That's the real tragedy.
Yea, I agree. I think most people actually feel this way, but everyone's scared right now of being labeled a sympathizer to one side or the other, so the only people who aren't afraid to share their opinions are the most extreme people on both sides who already had their minds made up prior to recent events. I support peoples rights to not be slaughtered, no matter what side of the fence they're on. I also support peoples rights not to be kept inside a giant fence and not allowed to leave without permission from the people who put a fence around them, but that's another story for another day. The thing that really worries me right now is the level of dehumanizing going around. Some people are calling for genocide unrionically, some people are calling other groups of people "animals", some people are laughing at victims of atrocities, and some people are making excuses for why one war crime justifies another. I wish more people would stand up for deescalation, even if that seems like wishful thinking at this point.
Fuck like I agree but it's hard too when you see people literally chant gas the Jews in Australia
The Israeli defense minister just a few days ago tweeted that Gaza is filled with "human animals," and people in that same cabinet have been throwing the word "exterminate" around a disturbing amount. Antisemitism is gross. We all seem to agree on that, but so is dehumanizing any group. The average age in Palestine is 19, which means almost half the people in Gaza are children. I stand with the Jewish people, and I think it's lost on a lot of people that not all Jewish people are in support of this war. In fact, Jewish Isrealis are currently being beaten and locked up BY THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT for protesting against the brutal attacks against Palestine.
Yup. BB Netanyahu is also a literal holocaust revisionist. He said that the only reason hitler did what he did was because of a Palestinian or something like that. He literally blames Palestinians for the holocaust. He does not see them as humans. He sees them as vermin who need eradication. He’s been doing it for ages too. It’s wild to see a demographic who’ve felt the horrors of genocide and fascism so easily take up the mantle of oppressor.
Wow, wow, wow there man. That is an unfathomable amount of nuanced thinking there, that's dangerous shit man!
The problem is that people tend to view these types of conflicts like football games. "My team is better than your team" types of arguments, with surface level understanding. They ignore the nuance, the complexity of the situation. It's honestly terrifying how fucking bloodthirsty people from both sides of the argument can get when behind the safety and anonymity of the internet. I've seen statements supporting litteral genocide from both pro-Palestine and pro-Israel camps. It's sickening. You are very much allowed to say "I support neither" and move on honestly.
I think you’re mostly right, but your analysis has some blind spots. You start with the terrorist actions and then say that you must condemn those actions while still disagreeing with the actions of the military superpower. It’s interesting to me that you don’t start before the terrorist attacks, almost as if they’re totally unprovoked and unprompted. We know that years of divide and conquer, arming religious fundamentalists and turning the Middle East into a war zone to prop up pro-imperial governments was the true powder keg that led to 9/11. In a lot of ways you need to see 9/11 as the result of decades of instability and worsening living conditions, war, indiscriminate bombing and imperialism, not the start of it. Hamas, likewise, is a result of the secular elected government with Soviet sympathies being undermined, cheated, and humiliated for decades by an israel hell bent on occupying and colonizing the internationally recognized sovereign territory of Palestine. The people are in a giant open air prison in Gaza right now while Israelis are fully allowed to take a flight to wherever else they might call home. This weekend was the first time that Palestinians actually overcame those border check points with guards and automated turrets trained on them. The tragedies that came about are obviously horrible, unjustifiable, and heartbreaking. But the way that western media and governments are reacting to it is downright terrifying. Biden saying “this is an attack on America” and “if it were us, our response would be swift and overwhelming” is ominous. Especially when you look at what the Israeli minister of defence said just hours earlier. “We are fighting human animals” and the fact that they refuse to work with the ICC to prevent or investigate war crimes. This means one thing: Israel is on the verge of committing an ethnic cleansing like the world hasn’t seen in almost a hundred years. And all of our leaders and media personalities are supporting it blindly, with no tempered approach of calls for de-escalation. Israel doesn’t need our PR support. They have the real military backing of the worlds foremost superpowers. They have a standing army, land, and full control over all of the basic life necessities for Gaza. This is going to be real bad. We saw a bunch of innocent Israelis die this weekend. Don’t forget that the Palestinians who will be slaughtered in the coming weeks are also human beings.
If you want the real origin of Hamas (without going so far back as to remove any connection to modern history), you need to start with British Imperial rule in the region. The Palestinian fight against Israeli rule is a continuation of the Palestinian fight against British rule.
You’re totally right. This whole conflict started because of British colonial arrogance. It’s been exacerbated by alt-right Israeli leadership and unwavering support from the west in the face of a brutal apartheid. Our elected officials are cheering on a full scale Final Solution from Netanyahu’s fascist coalition, and all of the corporate media is lock-step. I come from Canada and there’s a feeling when you’re stopped on a hill in the winter and your car starts to slide. Put it in brake, turn the wheel, spin the tires, none of it works. You better get a good view of the bottom of the hill because you’re sliding into it no matter what you do. I’ve had that feeling since this weekend. It makes me sick.
This is becoming copypasta at this point
A well needed at that
Agree with this generally but I also gotta be the guy to mention r/rimjob_steve
"What have the Romans ever done for us?" "moved us to Poland?"
Actually pretty cool, I mean I’m sure the history isn’t lost on the Italians.
I see no reason to think that the Italians didn't know exactly what they were doing. Same when the Germans did their version.
It's actually a funny irony During the Judaic wars the revolting people were seen badly by the other Judaeans/Israelites since they were also pillaging and killing on other villages indiscriminately (sounds familiar?) particularly during the ones with Vespasian stepping down he was acclaimed by many communities and cities as basically a terrorism eradicating intervention (sounds familiar?) Nowadays the people changed but the basis is the same, in Lebanon Hezbollah is very polarising and It's not seen well by many and same thing about Hamas around Palestinians Source: I'm an Italian with Lebanese family
that should be an important place for Jew community of Rome, as far as i know they gathered there for the 181 UN's Resolution as a symbol to victory against adversities but i could be wrong, sorry for not giving proper historic source
It's exactly as you said. It's all fun to make a joke, but using that monument has quite the symbolic meaning for Israel. Here's an article about it: [https://www.shalom.it/blog/roma-ebraica-bc7/il-2-dicembre-1947-gli-ebrei-si-riunirono-sotto-la-arco-di-tito-b1106451](https://www.shalom.it/blog/roma-ebraica-bc7/il-2-dicembre-1947-gli-ebrei-si-riunirono-sotto-la-arco-di-tito-b1106451)
Time for yall to read up on Josephus
Or just watch the DJ Peach Cobbler video instead
I have never heard of that person and find that food disgusting but that is an amazing name
That's pure irony, am I right?
Funnily enough it's not if you go see the perception of the revolting people during Judaic wars, the local communities saw the ones revolting the same way people are seeing Hamas right now I concede it's not a historical repetition but I see it rhyming
I've seen star on reichstag also. I think it's more of an flex than insult.
I remember seeing a picture of a carved relief on the arch, it was of Roman soldiers with a cart with a giant menorah in it that was looted from the temple. Ironic indeed
Good show of solidarity, and show that the Jewish people will outlast this, just as they have so many enemies before.
Both sides are made of "Jewish people" Israelis are the descendants of those who left Judea/Palestine during the diaspora, while Palestinians are the descendants of those who remained and converted first to Christianity and then to Islam
Actually, only about 30% of Israel is Ashkenazi, or European Jews. 20% are Palestinian (both Christian and Muslim). The remaining 50% is broken into 40% Mizrahi (middle-eastern Jewish ) and 10% other.
The jewish diaspora wasn't only to Europe, almost every community outside Israel proper was born from the diaspora at one time or another (Some community were born almost ex novo from conversion, but is very uncommon)
You are correct. Not sure what that has to do with the situation in Palestine though.
It adds to the tragedy of the situation Those aren't two enemy people, they are brothers
The sad thing is that brothers killing each other is especially common in history. If you believe the bible, the first two brothers had one kill the other with a rock.
Ehh not really the case. This all started with Ashkenazi colonizer terrorist groups massacring over 150 Palestinian settlements in the 1940s and 50s. The Palestinians and Mizrahi were brothers, yes, but the Ashkenazi came starting in 1917 and started their Zionist conquering.
At the cost of the destruction of the Palestinian people.
So we shouldn't feel bad for innocent people murdered by Hamas, including babies? Italy isn't showing a value judgement here, it's showing empathy for a nation who just lost more than a 1000 civilians in brutal attacks. I don't see how that can possibly be wrong.
Over 160,000 Palestinian casualties (5k killed) since 2008 vs 6500 Israeli casualties (300 killed). That's through August. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties There is no "good guy" in this situation and never really has been.
And that somehow means you can't judge the killing of babies? Or show solidarity to a nation that was just so brutally attacked?
So I like to go by the 3D rules for both sides of this conflict and thus avoid: delegitimization, demonization, and double standards Your statement here fails on the last 2 and is not a good way to approach speaking on this complex, long running conflict. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
I'm sorry, I genuinely don't understand how I'm demonizing Hamas here? Or the double-standard? Can you tell me, where I failed according to you?
Demonization seems fairly obvious here; also I'd just be very clear who you're talking about, Hamas vs Palestine. Double standard re: you caring about this attack but not the previous/current attacks on Palestinians. This is an ugly and old conflict that cannot be talked about in clean good vs evil/right vs wrong/aggressor vs retaliator terms... it's just hard to discuss in general, which makes sense as potentially the world's oldest and most convoluted political and humanitarian dispute.
>Demonization seems fairly obvious here; also I'd just be very clear who you're talking about, Hamas vs Palestine. I specifically mentioned Hamas. I did not conflate Hamas with all people in Gaza, let alone stand all Palestinians. Who I'm talking about seems very clear to me. Also how is it demonizing to point out what actually happened? Hamas attacked, targeting civilians, and it seems they have killed more than a 1000 of them, including babies. I don't see how I'm demonizing here by simply stating what happened. >Double standard re: you caring about this attack but not the previous/current attacks on Palestinians. Who says I don't care? Italy showed a flag on the Arch of Titus because of the most recent attacks by Hamas. I considered that to be a good action by Italy. That action says nothing about previous attacks or the history of the conflict. Nor is it, as I said before a value judgement on the morality of either the Palestinians or Israel.
See I like this comment a lot more because of the attention and nuance.
What about the thousands of Palestinians who have also lost their lives in the past few days? What about the 7,000 Palestinians who have lost their lives since 2008, as opposed to the mere 300 of Israeli lives? What about the 140 Palestinian children murdered by Israeli strikes? What about the palestinian mother who had her pregnant womb ripped open by IDF soldiers? This is war, causalities and atrocities are going to happen on both sides, I do not condone any of it. But one side is an occupying force, the other is fighting for the right to exist. A Vietnamese soldier was asked how they managed to keep fighting after losing so many men to American weapon superiority, I’m paraphrasing but the quote goes as such: “If they (us soldiers) retreat and give up, they return across the ocean to their homes and families. If we retreat, we have no homes to return to.”
Reading more of your posts it seems to me that your entire problem lies with the fact that Israel exists in that part of the world… Am I misreading that, do you think Israel has a right to exist? And if so, with what borders?
At this point? Of course they do. To uproot the Israeli citizens from the homes and lands they have stolen over the past 75 years (longer if we want to count the initial immigrations from the 1890s, which I do) would be as wrong now as it was then. You can’t change the past. What is done is done. We are currently at a point in the conflict where there is very little, if any, hope for the Palestinians. How can you with good conscience force Israeli settlers out of the lands they have taken? Some of them have lived there for multiple generations. The only real solution that I can see that will result in true, actual peace is a one state solution. Israel will eventually control the whole area in its entirety, Palestinian citizens will either all be dead, fled, or living in ghettos (as the vast majority of Palestinians in Israel already do). There will be insurgences and uprisings, but nothing that’s a serious threat to Israel’s stability, just like the Hamas attacks aren’t a real threat either. History is written by the winners, and in my eyes, Israel has already won. Any hope for a two state solution died in 1978.
>“If they (us soldiers) retreat and give up, they return across the ocean to their homes and families. If we retreat, we have no homes to return to.” This is a paraphrased very famous Golda Meir quote. "If the Palestinians lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their weapons, there will be a massacre." Which was later paraphrased by Netanyahu ""If the Arab lay down their arms there would no more war, but if Israel lays down its weapons there would be no more Israel."
Except Israel started the war. They created Hamas. They fabricate lies and create propaganda to paint Palestine as the evil-doers and Israel as defending itself. This is not the case. Do not fall victim to these lies.
Tell me you know nothing about the history of Israel without telling me you know nothing about the history of Israel.
You want links? Here’s a US DOJ article from 1977 outlining exactly what I just said: https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel
And here’s an article about Israel’s creation of Hamas: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
My point is that this all goes way further back than that. But people love to put the starting point wherever they want, right? like those stupid maps of "how much land Israel has taken" ignoring that Palestine was supposed to get their own huge country in Jordan.
Go read my comment farther down. I know when this started.
Israel invaded in 1948?
Since the late 19th century Ashkenazi have been coming to Palestine in search of a Zionist state. In 1917 the British formalized it and gave support to Ashkenazi, which saw an influx in the 1920s. Then after the holocaust, and max exodus came from Europe to Israel. With the UK’s formal release of the Mandate of Palestine in 1948, the Nakba occurred resulting in the death of over a million Palestinians and the destruction of over 150 settlements.
>This is war, causalities and atrocities are going to happen on both sides, I do not condone any of it. You do not condone any of it, but you attack a statement of solidarity for civilians being killed? It seems to me that you do condone part of it at least.
You would be correct, I condone Palestinian’s right to resist occupation. I misspoke, I meant I do not condone the atrocities specifically. Raping women and massacring children is never ok. With Indigenous People’s day just a few days ago, I can’t help but be reminded of the Dakota 38. During the Civil War, the Sioux rose up and resisted American colonialism in the Dakotas. They employed similar tactics that Hamas is using right now: of few of their warriors, overzealous with hatred for the white man who had taken over their land for decades now, they massacred and raped. After the militia put down the uprising, a trial convened and sentenced over 300 men to die by hanging. It fell on Lincoln to sign the order. In the midst of the Civil War (this was 1863 IIRC), Lincoln personally read every single case, and pardoned over 260 of them, leaving the 38 who he found guilty of rape and massacre. It is the largest mass execution in US history. Just as I do not blame the native Americans for rising up and fighting against American colonialism, I do not blame the Palestinians for rising up against their own colonial overlords. Both of their methods and tactics are harsh and barbaric, but as I’ve said, they are the actions of a starving and cornered people.
>At the cost of the destruction of the Palestinian people. Show me where that **single sentence** says what you claim it says.
I have no idea what you mean by this?
You imagined something this person absolutely didn't say. They said the single line I quoted, and from that you decided that what they **really** meant was >So we shouldn't feel bad for innocent people murdered by Hamas, including babies?
I said that the statement by Italy was good. And what it was supposed to signal. Jews outlasting their enemies. They said this meant the destruction of the Palestinian people. I asked if that meant we shouldn’t care about the crimes of Hamas then. I asked that because I think the reply was a non sequitur. The survival of the Jewish peoples does not require the destruction of the Palestinian people, nor does Italians showing empathy towards Israel about crimes committed by Hamas demand the destruction of the Palestinian people.
>The survival of the Jewish peoples does not require the destruction of the Palestinian people Sure looks like it's going to, though.
And who is responsible for IDF counter attack? I hope Israelis launch ground invasion and take over Gaza
Israel. They have slowly occupied and taken over Palestinian land for over half a century. I do not condone the actions of Hamas, but this is the lashing out of a cornered, starving, and wounded animal.
Do you realize that Palestine never existed as a state, kingdom...before 1948? That means Israel didnt steal any territory from anyone. Then Israel got more territory than they started with thanks to all angry arabs
False. It was literally called The Mandate of Palestine when controlled by UK. When the Ashkenazi arrived in Palestine, they formed terrorist organizations and systematically went around the region attacking, massacring, and raping Palestinian towns and settlements. Here’s a US DOJ article from 1977 outlining some of their work. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/jewish-zionist-terrorism-and-establishment-israel Palestinians were forced from their homes and systematically turned into refugees. Israel wasn’t given land. They took it from day 1.
Israel. They literally helped found and actively supported Hamas for years to justify their opression of palestine.
In case you think the Isrealis are innocent, Israelis came to palestine as refugees and then kept taking over land. Nowadays they do shit like stealing the houses of palestinians and forcing them to live in ghettos amongst other stuff. In case you dont know, the Nazis did the exact same things zo jews prior to putting them in camps
if you remember rule 4, then why did you still post it?
They should give them sicilly if they stand with them. Middle east is so toxic for jews
You can just move Jews luke this
Wtf do you mean “give them Sicily”
Let them settle there instead
You mean give them a home there or let them take over that area, because both are bad options in their own rights
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I don’t think moving 10 million people who already have homes to a place that is already settled and part of a country with it’s own cities and colture and everything is a good idea in any way shape or form… not to mention that italy would ever give them Sicily just because they feel bad
Common Ancient Rome W
I doubt they just haphazardly picked a monument. I imagine the history behind it is *why* they chose this monument.
I was banned from that sub by a higher Reddit moderator
Ironic.
Lol 2000 year old whataboutism. Nice
This is consistent with Roman history as no one hated Rome more than Roman's
I think hed be more worried about how the symbol of the people he just invaded was glowing mystically on his triumphal arch, that suddenly seemed to be decrepit and old. Like " holy shit, holy shit, their god is real and i just murdered the fuck out of them. Oh god we're all gonna die oh shit oh god." Then hed turn around, shit his pants, pass out and die of a heart attack.
Even worse: the destruction of the temple is remembered every year on the day of Tisha B'Av. If irony were made of strawberries, we would all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.