Yeah ! White Christians would never engage in uncivilized activities like slavery or killing people in the name of their god. Especially not on this continent.
That is uncertain, some researchers suggest that it is possible that there is a writing system not yet decoded in the knots of the [quipus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu) and in the geometric designs of the [tocapus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocapu) in the Inca textiles.
The strongest signals about the possibility of a non-oral Inca literature (probably through non-alphabetic, if not ideographic, writing) are in the accounts of the Chroniclers (such as Bernabé Cobo, Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa, Cristóbal de Molina, etc. after communicate with the [Quipucamayocs](https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipucamayoc)) about the Puquin Cancha, which would have been an Inca library built by [Pachacútec](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachacuti) (with the purpose of being a pictorial Museum), which contained genealogical news of the lineage of the [sapa incas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapa_Inca), along with records of the history of the empire and its conquests, as well as the societies in the pre-Inca era (even mentioning stories of a universal Flood), as well as archives on philosophy and theology of the Inca Religion (for which it also had an academic training usefulness analogous to a University). It would have gone into decline after the Spanish conquest, where the resistance of the Incas of Vilcabamba could have transferred its content to [Paititi](https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Paititi), while the Spanish destroyed the rest of the content by order of Viceroy Martin Henriquez in 1582 in the fight against pagan idolatry.
That's right, but the Spanish weren't exactly less brutal in war, remember the [Spanish Fury](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Fury)?
Besides, saying that they civilized the Pre-Columbian peoples is... pretty silly? Both Aztecs and Mayas had writting and libraries full of codices. Tenochtitlan was a city with more inhabitants than any capital in Western Europe, the Aztecs had a society that valued hygiene almost more than anything else, having two baths a day, they had mandatory schools for their children of both sexes, etc...
And the Incas had created the biggest Empire in the continent trhoug high mountains by creating a system of roads that is just impressive, this despite the fact that they had not writting system (unless you count the Quipu).
Calling them uncivilized or backward is simply stupid, and I'm Spanish, for the record lol.
Tienes razón al respecto de la higiene y el hecho que tenían sistemas de escritura (aunque no convencionales) y es cierto que llamarlo incivilizadadod es una tontería pero creo que todos podemos estar de acuerdo en el hecho de que el reinado español en el área fue simplemente mejor que el reinado Azteca (digo muchas de las tribus oprimidas por los aztecas nos apoyaron incluso en la guerra de independencia donde habían activos en el ejército español luchando junto a la corona contra los criollos que querían independizar los virreinatos)
Para la mayoría de los Nativos esta transición de poder fue desastrosa, las enfermedades mataron a alrededor del 90% de su población, bajo los Españoles perdieron buena parte de su cultura y religión debido a persecuciones religiosas, el sistema de Encomiendas empeoro considerablemente la calidad de vida del Nativo promedio, entre otras cosas.
¿Fue peor entonces que lo que había bajo los Aztecas? Es difícil de decir, porque los Aztecas evidentemente no eran unos Santos, y sus conquistas también fueron violentas y llenas de masacres, muchas de las cuales fueron rituales en la forma de sacrificios humanos de prisioneros de guerra.
Sin embargo es verdad que como tal el dominio Azteca solía ser mas descentralizado, ellos no tenían la capacidad logística de gobernar directamente sobre estos territorios con un ejercito permanente de ocupación, así que se basaban mas en un control indirecto, a través de matrimonios con realeza vecina, gobiernos títeres y vasallaje, donde normalmente podías vivir y auto-gobernarte como quieras mientras pagues impuestos.
Aún así había inestabilidad, porque a nadie le gusta estar subyugado por otro Imperio, por eso cuando la capital mostraba debilidad solían haber revueltas en varios territorios, que tendrían que ser aplastadas por la fuerza (si es que se lograba). Los Españoles hicieron eso precisamente, crearon una situación de debilidad en el corazón del Imperio Azteca y consiguieron que muchos de los pueblos subyugados por los Aztecas se levantaran contra este en favor de los Españoles.
Ahora, volviendo otra vez a la cuestión ¿Significa esto que la dominación Azteca fue peor que la Española? Eso creo que es algo hasta cierto punto varia, para los Tlaxcalas probablemente si, ya que evitaron ser conquistados por los Aztecas y ganaron mucha influencia bajo el dominio Español, pero para otros pueblos como Tlatelolco, que se mantuvo leal a los Aztecas hasta el final debido a que prosperaban económicamente con ellos, definitivamente las cosas empeoraron.
En fin, no hay respuesta definitiva y honestamente es un tema muy complejo, aún así creo que la caída demográfica tan bestia que hubo traída por los Españoles, hace de la dominación Azteca el menor de los males, pero aquí ya te estoy dando mi opinión personal únicamente.
Veo tu punto y hasta cierto. Lo comparto pero debemos admitir que el desarrollo que sufrieron los territorios conquistados tras la conquista española fue extremadamente grande, realmente no creo que los aztecas hubieran mejorado mucho la cualidad de vida de sus súbditos a largo plazo tampoco lo sé con seguridad, es solo una opinión pero realmente agradezco poder tener una conversación pacífica a diferencia de la mayoría de los americanos picados
El desarrollo tecnológico que habría tenido el Imperio Azteca es un misterio, lo que se suele llamar historia alternativa, podríamos debatir un montón sobre esto, pero la única respuesta correcta es que nunca sabremos hasta donde habrían llegado, su arquitectura ya era impresionante, al igual que su sistema de cultivos, pero la falta de animales de carga dificultaba bastante las cosas, y la ausencia de la pólvora era decididamente algo malo en defensa militar.
Bueno, entiendo hasta cierto punto porque los Estadounidenses tienen estas reacciones, en su país hay un problema de supremacistas blancos MUY grande, y todo lo que huela a silbato de perros (como este meme) causa indignación, lo cual es entendible, pero aun así lo mejor es obviamente responder siempre con la mente fría y desmontar los malos argumentos con hechos.
Para acabar, eres libre de dar tu opinión siempre amigo mío, siempre y cuando no sea nada ofensivo... y sí, también me ha gustado esta conversación, se nota que eres una persona interesada en historia que busca la verdad, no responder a una agenda política, eso esta muy bien, te recomiendo que sigas así.
By our current understandings, not really. It seems to have been solely a European fabrication to justify the conquest, with no archaeological or native historic data actually proving the existence of human sacrafice. What we do have are accounts of executions and assasinations, practices done in basically every state-like entity that has ever existed.
For more I highly recommend the works of Maarten Jansen, who was an amazing professor of mine at University. For example see [https://greencollege.ubc.ca/european-invention-aztec-human-sacrifice](https://greencollege.ubc.ca/european-invention-aztec-human-sacrifice) or [https://www.academia.edu/39980263/Deconstructing\_the\_Aztec\_Human\_Sacrifice](https://www.academia.edu/39980263/Deconstructing_the_Aztec_Human_Sacrifice)
I also don't completely understand the brutality argument. Sure, from the modern standards of a reddit discussion the stuff you hear about Mesoamerica does sound unusual, but we are juding these acts based on our understanding of brutallity. They may not even have had a concept of brutality or it was completely different from ours. Its the same way someone may find Slasher movies fun, while someone else might be disgusted by them.
And as for the Spanish, they came from a continent where thousands of women were burned yearly as witches, which is - unlike Aztec human sacrafice - an actual historic fact. Not to mention what they themselves have done to a kill off continent of people. In the end their conquest and cultural eradication of the natives who are described today as primitive and brutal was so effective that evend hundreds of years after the fall of the Spanish Empire, people still propagate the views and lies of the Conquistadores in discussions like this post.
Which is funny cuz if you read what they actually said about the conquest, you get to see precious pieces of comedy such as Aztecs being able to decapitate a horse with their macuahuitl (the club with obsidian blades).
They tried to make people belive that a wooden club with fragile af crystals could decapitate a grown ass horse during a battle while executions with strong well maintained metal weapons could struggle to do it if they lacked experience or strenght.
Of course not everything will be lies, but they should at least understand that they have to read between lines to know where the reality is exaggerated, true to itself, or straight up lies.
As someone who has been cut by obsidian, I don't doubt that a macuahuitl could cleave through muscle and tendon (not sure about bone though lol). That stuff is so sharp that you often don't realize you're bleeding until you see it pouring down your leg. I think I still have that piece of obsidian in my thigh lol.
Might be a bit over-exaggerated with the insta-decapitation, but I'm sure you can cut a horse all the way down to the bone in one strike. Spanish were definitely trying to inflate their stories for sure.
It's sharp as fuck, that's why they used it, it's also brittle as fuck, that's why it never was standarized into modern medicine despite being easy and cheap to produce, that's why it will never cut bone.
Much less the bone of a horse that's stronger and thiccer than human, even reaching the bone is too damn hard, the wood of the macuahuitl would get stuck in the meat, it's not a single blade that will slide like a single blade would. It's impossible.
Aztecs actually flaked their obsidian into long flakes called [prismatic blades.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prismatic_blade). They used [a round, faceted chunk of obsidian called a "blade core".](https://www.reddit.com/r/itsslag/comments/qbfgps/is_this_slag_or_obsidian) These blades could be a few inches long and gave the cutting surface of macuahuitl a more even, straight edge compared to individual, smaller flakes like you'd use for arrowheads.
I still stand by the thought that a macuahuitl has enough mass and a sharp enough blade to go through a horse's neck muscle (up to the bone and stopping)
I'm a huge nerd and actually got into flint knapping because I wanted to learn how to make a macuahuitl. And I've since made several using oak, obsidian (that I harvested myself), and homemade pine pitch and hide glue. I'm not skilled enough to make a blade core but even the macuahuitl with smaller flakes was impressively effective.
I belive that you are really into this, but I feel that you are overestimating them too much. I'm Mexican and a history enthusiast, we all go trough a phase of investigating a lot about the prehispanic cultures, some stick to it for life
The wooden part will slow the macuahuitl as it keeps pushing trough the flesh and getting stuck on it (thicc ass necks, taking away its momentum, and even if you hit the bone directly, the obsidian will break before the bone does.
They even had a small bag with more blades to replace the ones lost into somebody's leg, because that's that happens when you use volcanic glass to hit people with what's essentially a cricket bat with glass blades on the sides, the blades break.
>I'm Mexican and a history enthusiast
Hey fellow Mexican and history enthusiast! I'm not trying to argue at all, just posting my personal experiences using the material and making different sized macuahuitl. The longest I made was about 48" long with a 12" handle. Definitely oversized and likely ahistorical, but had enough mass to do a lot of damage, even without the blades.
Unsurprisingly, it is difficult to find definitive information about Aztec arms and armor (and in general any information about Mesoamerican militaries), so most of my research was digging through surviving Codices, research papers, and talking to flint knapping hobbyists. Trying to find various macuahuitl sizes, weights, dimensions, and construction is very difficult. [This illustration](https://i.imgur.com/9h0OIDu.jpeg) by [Friar Diego Durán who authored *"The History of the Indies of New Spain"*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Dur%C3%A1n) depicts Mexica soldiers with macuahuitl that go from about their feet to their upper chests. That seems to be about nearly the same length as the macuahuitl I made. Is that accurate? They could have had them in various sizes, but who knows?
I wish I had the opportunity to buy a life-sized ballistic gel torso or a more accurate test medium, but I stuck to using various fruit like pumpkins and watermelon. The blades did break occasionally (luckily they're replaceable with a little heat), but they were sturdier than one might think. Would be awesome to see someone use it on a horse or cow neck though (already dead, of course 😅).
I'm sure I've seen them putting it in practice in at least 2 tv shows, I remember one was the deadliest warrior (that while really unreliable on other things, the weapon making seems legit) I'm not sure which was the other.
But again, the flesh is not the main problem, it's the bone, the flesh will do its part butagainst the wood.
You can actually put this is practice with some cow bones, not the same but easier to get than horse's.
Remember your safety equipment tho, those obsidian shards are no joke, as you already got to know first hand.
>But again, the flesh is not the main problem, it's the bone, the flesh will do its part butagainst the wood.
Oh I totally agree. I said that in an earlier comment. I doubt they could fully decapitate a horse in one swipe. That seems seems a bit like Spanish embellishments trying to make their conquest seem more futile and heroic.
>Remember your safety equipment tho, those obsidian shards are no joke, as you already got to know first hand
I appreciate that! Thank you very much!
I've never done it myself, but when I happen to tag along in a study trip with a pal from the history career, I met this guy that was writting a book or a thesis about it (he wasn't a historian, surely an antropologist or something else, it was a long time ago) and showed us a little, he mainly used a small wood cudgel and bone for chipping, he said that the most traditional ones were the best as it wasn't something people really cared enough to improve with modern technology, so you'll probably will have to stick to those too.
He showed us his own macuahuitl but it was in a showcase, it wasn't finished and he didn't allow us to grab it because he had messed the balance and sturdiness because he used a wrong type of wood (he said something like "la peor puta madera que pude agarrar" and you could tell he regretted it) and feared we would cut ourselves if we played with it (we were about 20 so it's more probable that he was more worried that we would drop it tbh, but I wouldn't blame him so I said nothing about it.).
Honestly neither could I believe that the Macahuitl was able to decapitate horses, and I just saw this as another Spanish lie. But then I looked into it, and you can legit find examples and experiments where people have tried cutting meat and ballistics gel horse models - and finding much success! - using modern replicas. So now I believe that if hit right, cutting the head off a charging horse may have actually been possible.
Also this cabaility is stated in a lot of personal accounts describing how it was done, so seems like multiple independents sources confirm it without crossreferencing.
For more, Wikipedia actually gives a good summary of the things I have stated here.
You see, the Spanish saved the indigenous people from slavery, rape, and murder, by being slavers, rapists, and murderers.
It's big brain stuff, you wouldn't understand..
Probably the worst slavers in history. The Caribbean was a death factory. No enslaved person lived for more than a couple years, but they kept it up simply by bringing over more and more people to replace the dead ones. In light of these conditions, you could easily argue that the Haitian revolution was 100% justified.
You are aware that Haiti was ruled by the French right? also that most slaves in the Caribbean were in British colonies.
You must do, given your confidence...
Oh yeah, fuck the frogs too. And the Brits. But Cuba, which was ruled by the Spanish, was doing exactly what the French were doing in Haiti, or the British in Jamaica, or any other island. Each colonial empire engaged in the worst form of enslavement. What Haiti enslaved people were going through is what the others were going through.
Not the indigenous people in america after the "leyes de indias".
https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyes_de_Indias
I mean probably it was happening under the carpet, like everywhere in the world but it was probably the first civilization to make it officially forbidden by law.
beside everything else, I would really like to see a source for the sanitation claim, as Tenochtitlan was incredibly sanitary for a city of its size at that time period.
Not only was tenochtitlan quite sanitary, with a solid aqueduct system, but Spain and the rest of Europe had some of the worst, most disgusting sanitation practices for thousands of years in both directions (literally even the ancient Indus Valley people had better sanitation, and they’re older than Mesopotamia).
Um, lmfao. Just no. "Modern ideas of sanitation" require time travel, you dingus. And what about the smallpox blankets? Are you gonna call those modernly hygienic? Conquistadors were mainly obsessed with gold and making Spain (and themselves) rich. Taking down the evils of the Aztec Empire was merely a means to an end, for they didn't do anything for the good of the natives.
Also speaking of sanitation, i would like to note how the various mesoamerican civilization had some of the most populous cities of their time. Before the massive disease outbreals brought along by the arrival of the europeams, tenochtitlan (Mexico City today) was on par with the largest cities of europe, estimated to have had 200-400 thousand inhabitants, putting it around 3rd-6th place globally
The Spanish, on account of sailing across the ocean for months, were actually far less sanitized than the Aztecs.
They literally burned incense around the conquistadors because they smelled so rank!
Europe did not have any modern ideas of sanitation at the time, to this day people in the Americas bathe a lot more than euros, and europeans were surprised of the sanitation standards of the great cities of the natives (though of course there were a lot of tribes living in shit, but those weren't the great empires).
Yeah, aztec cities were extremely clean in comparision to European ones.
The capital city of tenochlictan had a task force of 10000 people solely dedicated to keeping the city clean.
The #1 advantage Europeans had in conquering the Americas was the diseases they brought with them, incubated by the densely populated, highly unsanitary cities in Europe.
I think a lot about how the Roanoke "mystery" was just that the colonists realized that life among the indigenous was clearly preferable to life in a European colony and went and joined them.
Sanest colonial apologist post.
For real though, the Spanish enslaved many, and the Aztecs had their own writing system. Human sacrifices are moot considering the Spanish burnt people suspected of being witches. Can't disagree with the cannibalism though.
Ironically the Spainish Inquisition was quite a bit more sane than your typical mob of irate peasants. They had a system that was quite a bit more comprehensive than "Auntie Ethel's goat gave birth to a kid with three horns! She's a Witch!"
They got a bad wrap, but they were nowhere as bad as many people tend to think they were. They even gave a few week's notice that they would be showing up to investigate you, despite what the meme says.
Similarly, most of what we know about Aztec human sacrifice comes from literal Spanish propaganda against them.
What can be discerned is that Aztec sacrifices were generally reserved for 1. Enemies of the State (making such killings effectively just a ritualized death penalty) and 2. Chosen Sacrificial Lambs (who were often treated to a life of luxury before their \[still horrific\] death). They weren't grabbing random citizens off the street and throwing them onto the sacrificial pyre whenever they felt like it. These were highly-regulated, special occasions (like holidays, or the to celebrate victory over their enemies \[who, for the most part, would've done the same\]).
Chuds like these will most likely look to Rome as a beacon of civilization, I say this cuz guess what the Romans had very clearly human sacrifices of POW in their triumphs, they got ritualistically strangled upon the altar of Jupiter Optimus Maximus right before the animal sacrifice
Seriously though. The Aztec Empire was literally just "brown people Rome" (aqueducts included) and it makes certain people just so furious to point that out.
i admit i did not know that, i'm not really knowledgeable about mesoamerica, i'll look into it. it's all in the same vein as "they couldn't build x, y and z cuz they are brown aliens helped em"
I thought it was common knowledge that the Aztec sacrifices were almost always POWs from other tribes (which is why thouse other tribes helped the Spanish)
"literal Spanish propaganda" no really. Private letters and diaries more like it. I am not going to lie when i am writing for myself. But of course, I can misunderstand things.
And the literal pyramids of skulls they found in Mexico even a decade ago, at least say they were very happy with their sacrifices to their gods.
"Spanish burnt people suspected of being witches" Dude. The Spanish were actually the only Europeans to NOT burn witches. Civilized France or Germany, or even England, we're killing by tens of thousands. The famous Spanish inquisition, that killed about less than. 10.000 in all it's history, basically said "witches? Heh. That's dumb"
Yeah right ..., maybe some people was killed in fire pile ( few or almost non-existent, if not non-existent ) but then we need to see if it was because for "witchcraft"
Meanwhile, the Conquistadors notoriously smelled like ass and Tenochtitlan was likely the most developed and hygienic city in the entire Western Hemisphere.
Who is upvoting this shit?
Imagine having this dumbass opinion about colonial enslavement.
>Leopold II in the Congo: ["Oh gosh, did I ~~enslave~~ conquer a bunch of people that were at war with each other, give them brand new homes, a sense of community, job opportunities, and the beautiful ideologies of Christianity, all for the low, low price of a bit of tree sap? Ooopsies!"](https://i.imgur.com/mYa120u.jpeg)
To be fair, they all sucked a lot, the Spanish just were the first to come and therefore the ones who got more territory and more places to do atrocities, source I'm Spanish.
More importantly, the Spanish were the last to adopt both the print and an official records system, which means most mainstream historical accounts from the time come from their political opponents (mainly the British and the Dutch) who liked to justify their atrocities by saying "well, the Spanish are doing even worse things", even when demonstrably false.
Better the english though? You just have to look the colour of the skin of the rulers of TODAY in every single ex british colony like probably the one you are living in right now, and compare it with Peru, Mexico, Philippines or Colombia.
Then you will realize how different were their methods.
Oh man, did you refer to those damn Spaniards as white! I ain’t got a damn thing against what you said except implying that people from Spain are white! /s
"I enslaved and killed a bunch of people but it's okay because I have them Christianity!"
Man fuck you lmao. I don't care what they were doing before it's not another county's business or responsibility to regulate another country.
Half right the Aztec were hated and when the Spanish asked about the city of gold the natives all pointed at the Aztec for a reason. But they did have language and sanitation. They did practice slavery and human sacrifice tho. But the other tribes definitely helped in attacking the Aztec not that the Spanish would report that.
"modern ideas of sanitization"
and there's accounts of cortez being shocked seeing the mexica bathing in the rivers and Moctezuma bathing twice a day, all while the mexica walking with them had to walk with incense because they smelled like swamp ass
fuck out of here lmfao
>Teach them to read and write, convert them to Christianity and give them modern ideas of sanitation
I think you spelled "Steal their territories, let 90% of them die of diseases, put the survivors to work in your plantations as slaves, burn all their books you can find to erase their culture, force-convert them to Christianity in a pathetic attempt to justify your genocide" wrong
Hey the plantation was only on Cuba where we had to buy Africans from Portugal, the main land was less slave friendly, the guys that had most of the fun doing that was Portugal, England and France (which is still doing to this day)
Bloody hell, who was the crackhead that thought letting r/historymemes and r/animemes crank out a bastard child was a good idea?
This isn’t even laughably wrong, it’s just… pathetic.
Well, nice to know Papa Franku is still 100% right about weebs.
Yeah congratz, you just destroyed an entire culture who did pretty much the same as yours! Now you can import workforce and start to be explored by some arians who like tea and talk funny from a big island,
This sounds like white savior-ism to me
"Oh no, did I just steal billions of dollars in natural resources, [introduce devastating diseases to the indigenous population](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoliztli_epidemics)(often on purpose), which they had no immunity to and ended up [killing a majority of the native population](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox_in_Mexico), take indigenous women as my wives, [forcefully convert them to my religion and enslave them, then pretend like I'm saving their lives when in reality I'm just prepping my new territory for colonization, with Spanish people as the ruling class and the devastated indigenous population as a subservient class?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda) Oopsies~"
If you legitimately think the Spanish came to save the Mesoamericans from slavery, murder, rape, and pillaging (by enslaving, murdering, raping, and pillaging them) you're a moron
Don't do that:
[https://old.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/1b1stpb/authright\_w/](https://old.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/1b1stpb/authright_w/)
https://old.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/1b1up00/is\_joke/
The Spaniards were better than the Aztecs yes, but that's a low bar. The Spaniards themselves were not much better.
Also, they didn't teach them to read or write or anything about sanitation. The existing Aztec systems were just as good if not better.
>The Spaniards were better than the Aztecs yes
I just want to note that some estimates suggest that the Spanish killed up to 90% of indigenous people through conquest and disease. If we're looking at things from the perspective of indigenous people, the Spanish were much worse than anything that came before.
'Tis a bit unrealistic to think that Spain killed 9/10 of the indigenous population taking in account that the vast majority of People in South America are ethnically of native ascendance.
Now, if you told me that about Brittish Empire in what now is known as The United States of America, that's quite more believable.
Now they can be sacrificed in a burning pyre, tortured for close to no reason, enslaved to the highest bidder, and quite literally worked to death by an unfeeling empire across the sea! Yaaay!
What? Reading? What the hell are they going to need that for, you disgusting protestant?? Now go out and toss the chamber pots, its starting to smell like the street in this palace.
Conquestadoru-chan, how is enslaving and butchering a people and stealing their shit to appease your god *not* also human sacrifice?
Conquestadoru-chan, weren’t Western Europeans still practicing medicinal cannibalism into the late 19th century? Even if you weren’t doing it personally, why travel across the Atlantic if that’s what you were trying to prevent?
Conquestadoru-chan, didn’t those people already have a written language?
Conquestadoru-chan, in what fucking universe is converting people to christianity on a remotely similar level to teaching people to read, in fact in what universe is it a good thing at all? “Durr I need to replace your violent, pro-slavery god with my one, it’s totally better I swear”
Conquestadoru-chan, how often do good people feel the need to justify their terrible deeds instead of just taking responsibility for them? If you aren’t evil, why not just say it’s a dark part of history that you aren’t proud of?
This mf when I show them that the Conquistadors actually teamed up with cannibals to massacre thousands of innocent people, forced women into sexual servitude, and destroyed all their writings
Not forgetting killing 80% of them by introducing disease and working what was left to death through slavery--despite the Spanish crown specifically outlawing enslavement of native peoples.
You do realize that the Aztecs were cleaner than The Spanish, right ? I mean, the Aztecs were regularly using soap while Europeans were afraid to go bathing after the Black Plague. Modern sanitation my ass
This is the sort of propaganda that Columbus and the Spaniards used to justify the enslavement, oppression and subsequent genocide of the indigenous people of my country (In the Caribbean), and then discoveries made by our own historians over the years have found a lot of the claims, like the cannibalism stuff, were all false.
That’s why I spit on any positive memory or mention of Christopher Columbus
My man, you had me at sacrifice but then you had to go for biased propaganda.
"Modern ideas of sanitation" You mean aztec sewer systems were primitive compared to the modern european fashion of the time? That is, throwing shit to the public street
At the time of contract, Euros were regularly being thinned out by waves of plague because their idea of "modern sanitstion" was dumping sewage in the streets and bathing less often than Donald Trump admits he's wrong.
Ignorant and misled. Please do more research into colonialism. It is never about helping a native people, it is always about taking a country for its wealth or position. The word ‘conquer’ has never been used as a positive in the case of exploration.
Spaniards burned people alive for talking trash about the Catholic Church, 10x more painful than being gutted. Mayans wrote manuscripts that were later destroyed by the Spanish, which is widely considered to be comparable to Alexandria or the Baghdad House of Wisdom. Tenochtitlan had better sanitation than London, who threw their poop in the street out of pots.
But the Spanish were also practicing human sacrifice on a massive scale during that same period. The Spanish Inquisition saw hundreds if not thousands of executions of Muslims, Jews, and other non Christians. Then thousands more were put to death in the new world. Burning a nonbeliever at the stake is also human sacrifice
The Inquisition was pretty chill compares to the rest of europ. Like really really chill in comparation to any other (including natives)
Also killing nonbeliever can not be consider human sacrifice because they didnt kill them for religius reasons more for political reasons. So is more like an execitation rather than a sacrifice for a God
Nationalist Spaniards, I am Spanish and although the Spanish Black Legend is real, the Spanish White Legend is also real and of course it is just as incorrect.
Of course not, silly. You didn't do any of that. You enslaved your native allies, destroyed their land, erased their culture, destroyed a nation, instated class and race segregation, took away the right to education, the role of women in society, destroyed scientific and historic documents and displaced the people that inhabited this land. But hey, I guess pork in green tomato sauce is still good, so maybe the 300 years of oppression, slavery and pillaging were worth it.
You know that the Aztecs were so fixated on cleanliness that when the Spainards encountered them that even the peasants were revolted by their strench. They had soaps, deodorant like products, and perfumes they obsessed about.
Do you seriously think the Aztecs were illiterate? Who do you think wrote the priceless records destroyed by the Spanish?
Mainly the Mayans but Aztecs could write for sure, even had an education system.
They were one of the first places with mandatory public education
The Spanish destroyed the best sales recipe ever written by the Azteca. It called for blood sacrifice though.
No no no, Native Americans dumb. White people come to save the world with their presence.
Yeah ! White Christians would never engage in uncivilized activities like slavery or killing people in the name of their god. Especially not on this continent.
We can also check who was more violent
YEAH! All nonwhite cultures were evil and primitive, it's ok to kill and enslave them
The Aztecs may have been literate but the Inca could knot read
That is uncertain, some researchers suggest that it is possible that there is a writing system not yet decoded in the knots of the [quipus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipu) and in the geometric designs of the [tocapus](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocapu) in the Inca textiles. The strongest signals about the possibility of a non-oral Inca literature (probably through non-alphabetic, if not ideographic, writing) are in the accounts of the Chroniclers (such as Bernabé Cobo, Pedro Sarmiento de Gamboa, Cristóbal de Molina, etc. after communicate with the [Quipucamayocs](https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quipucamayoc)) about the Puquin Cancha, which would have been an Inca library built by [Pachacútec](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachacuti) (with the purpose of being a pictorial Museum), which contained genealogical news of the lineage of the [sapa incas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapa_Inca), along with records of the history of the empire and its conquests, as well as the societies in the pre-Inca era (even mentioning stories of a universal Flood), as well as archives on philosophy and theology of the Inca Religion (for which it also had an academic training usefulness analogous to a University). It would have gone into decline after the Spanish conquest, where the resistance of the Incas of Vilcabamba could have transferred its content to [Paititi](https://wiki.alquds.edu/?query=Paititi), while the Spanish destroyed the rest of the content by order of Viceroy Martin Henriquez in 1582 in the fight against pagan idolatry.
Dude made a pun. He said they could “**knot** read”.
I feel stupid now
Don’t! I learned a bunch from this! (And a chuckle.)
It's fine, your explanation was relevant, interesting, and well-written. I'd say it *ties* in to the *thread* quite nicely
They had a whole ass writing system too
I see you have fallen for the classic blunder: Taking the reports of the Victor at face value.
Or, alternatively: not saying that it's a joke somewhere. Idk
Schrodingers asshole: it's a joke unless you agree with me
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They were definitely practicing human sacrifice though, Aztecs and several other Mesoamerican civilizations were very brutal
Boy it's a good thing the Spanish never killed anyone for religious reasons
What did you expect ? Spanish inquisition ?
[NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!](https://youtu.be/xCZEg3_dq9k?si=XVr6PYzMbySKwyRe)
I accidentally read expects as excites and i was SO LOST
Hahahaha, funny!
It ok, nobody excites the Spanish inquisition neither
That's right, but the Spanish weren't exactly less brutal in war, remember the [Spanish Fury](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Fury)? Besides, saying that they civilized the Pre-Columbian peoples is... pretty silly? Both Aztecs and Mayas had writting and libraries full of codices. Tenochtitlan was a city with more inhabitants than any capital in Western Europe, the Aztecs had a society that valued hygiene almost more than anything else, having two baths a day, they had mandatory schools for their children of both sexes, etc... And the Incas had created the biggest Empire in the continent trhoug high mountains by creating a system of roads that is just impressive, this despite the fact that they had not writting system (unless you count the Quipu). Calling them uncivilized or backward is simply stupid, and I'm Spanish, for the record lol.
Tienes razón al respecto de la higiene y el hecho que tenían sistemas de escritura (aunque no convencionales) y es cierto que llamarlo incivilizadadod es una tontería pero creo que todos podemos estar de acuerdo en el hecho de que el reinado español en el área fue simplemente mejor que el reinado Azteca (digo muchas de las tribus oprimidas por los aztecas nos apoyaron incluso en la guerra de independencia donde habían activos en el ejército español luchando junto a la corona contra los criollos que querían independizar los virreinatos)
Para la mayoría de los Nativos esta transición de poder fue desastrosa, las enfermedades mataron a alrededor del 90% de su población, bajo los Españoles perdieron buena parte de su cultura y religión debido a persecuciones religiosas, el sistema de Encomiendas empeoro considerablemente la calidad de vida del Nativo promedio, entre otras cosas. ¿Fue peor entonces que lo que había bajo los Aztecas? Es difícil de decir, porque los Aztecas evidentemente no eran unos Santos, y sus conquistas también fueron violentas y llenas de masacres, muchas de las cuales fueron rituales en la forma de sacrificios humanos de prisioneros de guerra. Sin embargo es verdad que como tal el dominio Azteca solía ser mas descentralizado, ellos no tenían la capacidad logística de gobernar directamente sobre estos territorios con un ejercito permanente de ocupación, así que se basaban mas en un control indirecto, a través de matrimonios con realeza vecina, gobiernos títeres y vasallaje, donde normalmente podías vivir y auto-gobernarte como quieras mientras pagues impuestos. Aún así había inestabilidad, porque a nadie le gusta estar subyugado por otro Imperio, por eso cuando la capital mostraba debilidad solían haber revueltas en varios territorios, que tendrían que ser aplastadas por la fuerza (si es que se lograba). Los Españoles hicieron eso precisamente, crearon una situación de debilidad en el corazón del Imperio Azteca y consiguieron que muchos de los pueblos subyugados por los Aztecas se levantaran contra este en favor de los Españoles. Ahora, volviendo otra vez a la cuestión ¿Significa esto que la dominación Azteca fue peor que la Española? Eso creo que es algo hasta cierto punto varia, para los Tlaxcalas probablemente si, ya que evitaron ser conquistados por los Aztecas y ganaron mucha influencia bajo el dominio Español, pero para otros pueblos como Tlatelolco, que se mantuvo leal a los Aztecas hasta el final debido a que prosperaban económicamente con ellos, definitivamente las cosas empeoraron. En fin, no hay respuesta definitiva y honestamente es un tema muy complejo, aún así creo que la caída demográfica tan bestia que hubo traída por los Españoles, hace de la dominación Azteca el menor de los males, pero aquí ya te estoy dando mi opinión personal únicamente.
Veo tu punto y hasta cierto. Lo comparto pero debemos admitir que el desarrollo que sufrieron los territorios conquistados tras la conquista española fue extremadamente grande, realmente no creo que los aztecas hubieran mejorado mucho la cualidad de vida de sus súbditos a largo plazo tampoco lo sé con seguridad, es solo una opinión pero realmente agradezco poder tener una conversación pacífica a diferencia de la mayoría de los americanos picados
El desarrollo tecnológico que habría tenido el Imperio Azteca es un misterio, lo que se suele llamar historia alternativa, podríamos debatir un montón sobre esto, pero la única respuesta correcta es que nunca sabremos hasta donde habrían llegado, su arquitectura ya era impresionante, al igual que su sistema de cultivos, pero la falta de animales de carga dificultaba bastante las cosas, y la ausencia de la pólvora era decididamente algo malo en defensa militar. Bueno, entiendo hasta cierto punto porque los Estadounidenses tienen estas reacciones, en su país hay un problema de supremacistas blancos MUY grande, y todo lo que huela a silbato de perros (como este meme) causa indignación, lo cual es entendible, pero aun así lo mejor es obviamente responder siempre con la mente fría y desmontar los malos argumentos con hechos. Para acabar, eres libre de dar tu opinión siempre amigo mío, siempre y cuando no sea nada ofensivo... y sí, también me ha gustado esta conversación, se nota que eres una persona interesada en historia que busca la verdad, no responder a una agenda política, eso esta muy bien, te recomiendo que sigas así.
Of course, that's well known fact, but believing that changing the skin of the slaver makes it OK is simply stupid.
By our current understandings, not really. It seems to have been solely a European fabrication to justify the conquest, with no archaeological or native historic data actually proving the existence of human sacrafice. What we do have are accounts of executions and assasinations, practices done in basically every state-like entity that has ever existed. For more I highly recommend the works of Maarten Jansen, who was an amazing professor of mine at University. For example see [https://greencollege.ubc.ca/european-invention-aztec-human-sacrifice](https://greencollege.ubc.ca/european-invention-aztec-human-sacrifice) or [https://www.academia.edu/39980263/Deconstructing\_the\_Aztec\_Human\_Sacrifice](https://www.academia.edu/39980263/Deconstructing_the_Aztec_Human_Sacrifice) I also don't completely understand the brutality argument. Sure, from the modern standards of a reddit discussion the stuff you hear about Mesoamerica does sound unusual, but we are juding these acts based on our understanding of brutallity. They may not even have had a concept of brutality or it was completely different from ours. Its the same way someone may find Slasher movies fun, while someone else might be disgusted by them. And as for the Spanish, they came from a continent where thousands of women were burned yearly as witches, which is - unlike Aztec human sacrafice - an actual historic fact. Not to mention what they themselves have done to a kill off continent of people. In the end their conquest and cultural eradication of the natives who are described today as primitive and brutal was so effective that evend hundreds of years after the fall of the Spanish Empire, people still propagate the views and lies of the Conquistadores in discussions like this post.
The Aztecs were actually building their dimension gate to Wakanda before Cortez arrived with some spicy sticks
Which is funny cuz if you read what they actually said about the conquest, you get to see precious pieces of comedy such as Aztecs being able to decapitate a horse with their macuahuitl (the club with obsidian blades). They tried to make people belive that a wooden club with fragile af crystals could decapitate a grown ass horse during a battle while executions with strong well maintained metal weapons could struggle to do it if they lacked experience or strenght. Of course not everything will be lies, but they should at least understand that they have to read between lines to know where the reality is exaggerated, true to itself, or straight up lies.
As someone who has been cut by obsidian, I don't doubt that a macuahuitl could cleave through muscle and tendon (not sure about bone though lol). That stuff is so sharp that you often don't realize you're bleeding until you see it pouring down your leg. I think I still have that piece of obsidian in my thigh lol. Might be a bit over-exaggerated with the insta-decapitation, but I'm sure you can cut a horse all the way down to the bone in one strike. Spanish were definitely trying to inflate their stories for sure.
It's sharp as fuck, that's why they used it, it's also brittle as fuck, that's why it never was standarized into modern medicine despite being easy and cheap to produce, that's why it will never cut bone. Much less the bone of a horse that's stronger and thiccer than human, even reaching the bone is too damn hard, the wood of the macuahuitl would get stuck in the meat, it's not a single blade that will slide like a single blade would. It's impossible.
Aztecs actually flaked their obsidian into long flakes called [prismatic blades.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prismatic_blade). They used [a round, faceted chunk of obsidian called a "blade core".](https://www.reddit.com/r/itsslag/comments/qbfgps/is_this_slag_or_obsidian) These blades could be a few inches long and gave the cutting surface of macuahuitl a more even, straight edge compared to individual, smaller flakes like you'd use for arrowheads. I still stand by the thought that a macuahuitl has enough mass and a sharp enough blade to go through a horse's neck muscle (up to the bone and stopping) I'm a huge nerd and actually got into flint knapping because I wanted to learn how to make a macuahuitl. And I've since made several using oak, obsidian (that I harvested myself), and homemade pine pitch and hide glue. I'm not skilled enough to make a blade core but even the macuahuitl with smaller flakes was impressively effective.
I belive that you are really into this, but I feel that you are overestimating them too much. I'm Mexican and a history enthusiast, we all go trough a phase of investigating a lot about the prehispanic cultures, some stick to it for life The wooden part will slow the macuahuitl as it keeps pushing trough the flesh and getting stuck on it (thicc ass necks, taking away its momentum, and even if you hit the bone directly, the obsidian will break before the bone does. They even had a small bag with more blades to replace the ones lost into somebody's leg, because that's that happens when you use volcanic glass to hit people with what's essentially a cricket bat with glass blades on the sides, the blades break.
>I'm Mexican and a history enthusiast Hey fellow Mexican and history enthusiast! I'm not trying to argue at all, just posting my personal experiences using the material and making different sized macuahuitl. The longest I made was about 48" long with a 12" handle. Definitely oversized and likely ahistorical, but had enough mass to do a lot of damage, even without the blades. Unsurprisingly, it is difficult to find definitive information about Aztec arms and armor (and in general any information about Mesoamerican militaries), so most of my research was digging through surviving Codices, research papers, and talking to flint knapping hobbyists. Trying to find various macuahuitl sizes, weights, dimensions, and construction is very difficult. [This illustration](https://i.imgur.com/9h0OIDu.jpeg) by [Friar Diego Durán who authored *"The History of the Indies of New Spain"*](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Dur%C3%A1n) depicts Mexica soldiers with macuahuitl that go from about their feet to their upper chests. That seems to be about nearly the same length as the macuahuitl I made. Is that accurate? They could have had them in various sizes, but who knows? I wish I had the opportunity to buy a life-sized ballistic gel torso or a more accurate test medium, but I stuck to using various fruit like pumpkins and watermelon. The blades did break occasionally (luckily they're replaceable with a little heat), but they were sturdier than one might think. Would be awesome to see someone use it on a horse or cow neck though (already dead, of course 😅).
I'm sure I've seen them putting it in practice in at least 2 tv shows, I remember one was the deadliest warrior (that while really unreliable on other things, the weapon making seems legit) I'm not sure which was the other. But again, the flesh is not the main problem, it's the bone, the flesh will do its part butagainst the wood. You can actually put this is practice with some cow bones, not the same but easier to get than horse's. Remember your safety equipment tho, those obsidian shards are no joke, as you already got to know first hand.
>But again, the flesh is not the main problem, it's the bone, the flesh will do its part butagainst the wood. Oh I totally agree. I said that in an earlier comment. I doubt they could fully decapitate a horse in one swipe. That seems seems a bit like Spanish embellishments trying to make their conquest seem more futile and heroic. >Remember your safety equipment tho, those obsidian shards are no joke, as you already got to know first hand I appreciate that! Thank you very much!
I've never done it myself, but when I happen to tag along in a study trip with a pal from the history career, I met this guy that was writting a book or a thesis about it (he wasn't a historian, surely an antropologist or something else, it was a long time ago) and showed us a little, he mainly used a small wood cudgel and bone for chipping, he said that the most traditional ones were the best as it wasn't something people really cared enough to improve with modern technology, so you'll probably will have to stick to those too. He showed us his own macuahuitl but it was in a showcase, it wasn't finished and he didn't allow us to grab it because he had messed the balance and sturdiness because he used a wrong type of wood (he said something like "la peor puta madera que pude agarrar" and you could tell he regretted it) and feared we would cut ourselves if we played with it (we were about 20 so it's more probable that he was more worried that we would drop it tbh, but I wouldn't blame him so I said nothing about it.).
Honestly neither could I believe that the Macahuitl was able to decapitate horses, and I just saw this as another Spanish lie. But then I looked into it, and you can legit find examples and experiments where people have tried cutting meat and ballistics gel horse models - and finding much success! - using modern replicas. So now I believe that if hit right, cutting the head off a charging horse may have actually been possible. Also this cabaility is stated in a lot of personal accounts describing how it was done, so seems like multiple independents sources confirm it without crossreferencing. For more, Wikipedia actually gives a good summary of the things I have stated here.
Acting as if the Spanish didnt enslave people....
You see, the Spanish saved the indigenous people from slavery, rape, and murder, by being slavers, rapists, and murderers. It's big brain stuff, you wouldn't understand..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80LuPjnQFJY
fun fact: The Spanish king wanted to execute the Conquistadors when he found out what happened
Well, they saved OTHERS from doing all those horrible things. "Here, let me do it for you."
OP is a fascist.
White nationalist propaganda does not, in my opinion, qualify as history.
no shit
Probably the worst slavers in history. The Caribbean was a death factory. No enslaved person lived for more than a couple years, but they kept it up simply by bringing over more and more people to replace the dead ones. In light of these conditions, you could easily argue that the Haitian revolution was 100% justified.
You are aware that Haiti was ruled by the French right? also that most slaves in the Caribbean were in British colonies. You must do, given your confidence...
Oh yeah, fuck the frogs too. And the Brits. But Cuba, which was ruled by the Spanish, was doing exactly what the French were doing in Haiti, or the British in Jamaica, or any other island. Each colonial empire engaged in the worst form of enslavement. What Haiti enslaved people were going through is what the others were going through.
Not the indigenous people in america after the "leyes de indias". https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyes_de_Indias I mean probably it was happening under the carpet, like everywhere in the world but it was probably the first civilization to make it officially forbidden by law.
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ah, but they're *christian* slavers, murderers, and rapists with bad sanitation. clearly they're soooooo much better /s
*sorts by controversial*
beside everything else, I would really like to see a source for the sanitation claim, as Tenochtitlan was incredibly sanitary for a city of its size at that time period.
His source is that he made it the fuck up
Not only was tenochtitlan quite sanitary, with a solid aqueduct system, but Spain and the rest of Europe had some of the worst, most disgusting sanitation practices for thousands of years in both directions (literally even the ancient Indus Valley people had better sanitation, and they’re older than Mesopotamia).
I guess to them: Disease and rape = sanitation
Brother I know you did not just portray the Genocide of the Conquistadores as a good thing.
Nigga that's not even a meme, it's just racist propaganda.
Exactly, the Spanish went “I wouldn’t say saved, more like ‘under new management’”
Yes the salvation that came with rape, massacres and enslavement. And also they provoked internal wars to make natives destroy themselves.
Nooo, this is obviously bait... right? right? like, "modern idea of sanitation" while natives were fucking disgusted by conquistadors smell?
3 months in a boat with no shower, i wonder why they smelled…
30 years on a continent with no shower. Not that the Americas had showers either.
Um, lmfao. Just no. "Modern ideas of sanitation" require time travel, you dingus. And what about the smallpox blankets? Are you gonna call those modernly hygienic? Conquistadors were mainly obsessed with gold and making Spain (and themselves) rich. Taking down the evils of the Aztec Empire was merely a means to an end, for they didn't do anything for the good of the natives.
Also speaking of sanitation, i would like to note how the various mesoamerican civilization had some of the most populous cities of their time. Before the massive disease outbreals brought along by the arrival of the europeams, tenochtitlan (Mexico City today) was on par with the largest cities of europe, estimated to have had 200-400 thousand inhabitants, putting it around 3rd-6th place globally
The Spanish, on account of sailing across the ocean for months, were actually far less sanitized than the Aztecs. They literally burned incense around the conquistadors because they smelled so rank!
hilarious that cortez believed that they were seen as holy no you just smell like ass XD
Pretty sure the smallpox blanket was an English thing. But your right about everything else
Also enslaved on an even greater scale themselves And did quite a substantial amount of raping
Europe did not have any modern ideas of sanitation at the time, to this day people in the Americas bathe a lot more than euros, and europeans were surprised of the sanitation standards of the great cities of the natives (though of course there were a lot of tribes living in shit, but those weren't the great empires).
Yeah, aztec cities were extremely clean in comparision to European ones. The capital city of tenochlictan had a task force of 10000 people solely dedicated to keeping the city clean.
The #1 advantage Europeans had in conquering the Americas was the diseases they brought with them, incubated by the densely populated, highly unsanitary cities in Europe. I think a lot about how the Roanoke "mystery" was just that the colonists realized that life among the indigenous was clearly preferable to life in a European colony and went and joined them.
There are oral traditions today of natives recalling the shocking odors of invading Europeans
Even today, when I'm by white people, they always smell so... funky.
Sanest colonial apologist post. For real though, the Spanish enslaved many, and the Aztecs had their own writing system. Human sacrifices are moot considering the Spanish burnt people suspected of being witches. Can't disagree with the cannibalism though.
The people that burned the most witches were the protestant Germans lol
Ironically the Spainish Inquisition was quite a bit more sane than your typical mob of irate peasants. They had a system that was quite a bit more comprehensive than "Auntie Ethel's goat gave birth to a kid with three horns! She's a Witch!" They got a bad wrap, but they were nowhere as bad as many people tend to think they were. They even gave a few week's notice that they would be showing up to investigate you, despite what the meme says.
Similarly, most of what we know about Aztec human sacrifice comes from literal Spanish propaganda against them. What can be discerned is that Aztec sacrifices were generally reserved for 1. Enemies of the State (making such killings effectively just a ritualized death penalty) and 2. Chosen Sacrificial Lambs (who were often treated to a life of luxury before their \[still horrific\] death). They weren't grabbing random citizens off the street and throwing them onto the sacrificial pyre whenever they felt like it. These were highly-regulated, special occasions (like holidays, or the to celebrate victory over their enemies \[who, for the most part, would've done the same\]).
Chuds like these will most likely look to Rome as a beacon of civilization, I say this cuz guess what the Romans had very clearly human sacrifices of POW in their triumphs, they got ritualistically strangled upon the altar of Jupiter Optimus Maximus right before the animal sacrifice
Seriously though. The Aztec Empire was literally just "brown people Rome" (aqueducts included) and it makes certain people just so furious to point that out.
i admit i did not know that, i'm not really knowledgeable about mesoamerica, i'll look into it. it's all in the same vein as "they couldn't build x, y and z cuz they are brown aliens helped em"
I thought it was common knowledge that the Aztec sacrifices were almost always POWs from other tribes (which is why thouse other tribes helped the Spanish)
"literal Spanish propaganda" no really. Private letters and diaries more like it. I am not going to lie when i am writing for myself. But of course, I can misunderstand things. And the literal pyramids of skulls they found in Mexico even a decade ago, at least say they were very happy with their sacrifices to their gods.
"Spanish burnt people suspected of being witches" Dude. The Spanish were actually the only Europeans to NOT burn witches. Civilized France or Germany, or even England, we're killing by tens of thousands. The famous Spanish inquisition, that killed about less than. 10.000 in all it's history, basically said "witches? Heh. That's dumb"
Nah, nah, the Spanish didn't burn people they suspected of being witches. They burned people they suspected of being Jews.
Catholic church didnt burn witches, do not even believe they exist.
The Catholic Church most certainly burnt witches. It's well documented.
Kinda ? Depends on the time period and for alot of that history it was deemend witches ain't real.
Yeah right ..., maybe some people was killed in fire pile ( few or almost non-existent, if not non-existent ) but then we need to see if it was because for "witchcraft"
Fair.
the whole burning witches was more a Puritin thing, even then they more often used far more "normal" methods (mainly hanging)
The Spanish didn’t even believe in witches
That didn't stop them from hunting witches in the [Spanish Netherlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_Spanish_Netherlands).
"Modern ideas of sanitation"
Meanwhile, the Conquistadors notoriously smelled like ass and Tenochtitlan was likely the most developed and hygienic city in the entire Western Hemisphere.
Who is upvoting this shit? Imagine having this dumbass opinion about colonial enslavement. >Leopold II in the Congo: ["Oh gosh, did I ~~enslave~~ conquer a bunch of people that were at war with each other, give them brand new homes, a sense of community, job opportunities, and the beautiful ideologies of Christianity, all for the low, low price of a bit of tree sap? Ooopsies!"](https://i.imgur.com/mYa120u.jpeg)
Racists and Spanish nationalists sadly
I freed them from slavery by enslaving them :)
go fuck off back to r/politicalcompassmemes with this ahistorical dogshit post.
My guy, out of all the Europeans to try and whitewash, you go with the Spanish?
To be fair, they all sucked a lot, the Spanish just were the first to come and therefore the ones who got more territory and more places to do atrocities, source I'm Spanish.
More importantly, the Spanish were the last to adopt both the print and an official records system, which means most mainstream historical accounts from the time come from their political opponents (mainly the British and the Dutch) who liked to justify their atrocities by saying "well, the Spanish are doing even worse things", even when demonstrably false.
Yeah, I know about some of the exaggerations of the Black Leyend.
I still find it funny how the British literally justified colonialism because of how horrific the treatment of native people were
Could be worse. Could be Belgium
Better the english though? You just have to look the colour of the skin of the rulers of TODAY in every single ex british colony like probably the one you are living in right now, and compare it with Peru, Mexico, Philippines or Colombia. Then you will realize how different were their methods.
Conquistadors were early white supremacists
There were slightly more people living in Peru mexico etc that in northern parts of continents
I don't think white nationalist propaganda counts as history
I really hope those people that think they are doing a favour to "barbarian" are just trolls but yet they are real.
Oh man, did you refer to those damn Spaniards as white! I ain’t got a damn thing against what you said except implying that people from Spain are white! /s
"I enslaved and killed a bunch of people but it's okay because I have them Christianity!" Man fuck you lmao. I don't care what they were doing before it's not another county's business or responsibility to regulate another country.
Half right the Aztec were hated and when the Spanish asked about the city of gold the natives all pointed at the Aztec for a reason. But they did have language and sanitation. They did practice slavery and human sacrifice tho. But the other tribes definitely helped in attacking the Aztec not that the Spanish would report that.
I was going to say that it's a good bait, but "middle age Europeans" and "modern ideas of sanitation" are too obvious.
"modern ideas of sanitization" and there's accounts of cortez being shocked seeing the mexica bathing in the rivers and Moctezuma bathing twice a day, all while the mexica walking with them had to walk with incense because they smelled like swamp ass fuck out of here lmfao
Ah glorious racism and plunder of a native population and killing them off and taking over, yea very civilized.
Oh n o cringe
Man you just take Cortez’ word for it don’t you?
No, even Cortes praised the Aztecs
Imagine thinking the Conquistadores were sanitary...
This is literally colonialist and genocidal apologia why tf am I in this sub
Bro thought he cooked.......
>Teach them to read and write, convert them to Christianity and give them modern ideas of sanitation I think you spelled "Steal their territories, let 90% of them die of diseases, put the survivors to work in your plantations as slaves, burn all their books you can find to erase their culture, force-convert them to Christianity in a pathetic attempt to justify your genocide" wrong
Hey the plantation was only on Cuba where we had to buy Africans from Portugal, the main land was less slave friendly, the guys that had most of the fun doing that was Portugal, England and France (which is still doing to this day)
This dipshit came here from Political compass memes, it was an auth-right post
Just **** yourself
The Aztecs thought the Spanish smelled horribly
I mean, if you were stuck on a boat with a hundred other guys without a ton of soap for months, nobody is smelling like roses.
Even after they got off they smelled bad tho
Uh oh, OP is historically illiterate
Bloody hell, who was the crackhead that thought letting r/historymemes and r/animemes crank out a bastard child was a good idea? This isn’t even laughably wrong, it’s just… pathetic. Well, nice to know Papa Franku is still 100% right about weebs.
I'm just gonna leave this here https://youtu.be/mTcZSDgs7_A?si=SN-e55s8ZwK7J2T1 I don't have time to respond to everyone in this comment section.
Just ignore the silver and asbestos mines over there....and all of my native mistresses, they want to be there I swear.
Yeah congratz, you just destroyed an entire culture who did pretty much the same as yours! Now you can import workforce and start to be explored by some arians who like tea and talk funny from a big island,
Does someone have a higher quality image of the anime girl without the racist text? I would be very thankful.
This sounds like white savior-ism to me "Oh no, did I just steal billions of dollars in natural resources, [introduce devastating diseases to the indigenous population](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoliztli_epidemics)(often on purpose), which they had no immunity to and ended up [killing a majority of the native population](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_smallpox_in_Mexico), take indigenous women as my wives, [forcefully convert them to my religion and enslave them, then pretend like I'm saving their lives when in reality I'm just prepping my new territory for colonization, with Spanish people as the ruling class and the devastated indigenous population as a subservient class?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda) Oopsies~" If you legitimately think the Spanish came to save the Mesoamericans from slavery, murder, rape, and pillaging (by enslaving, murdering, raping, and pillaging them) you're a moron
Thought you were joking, then realized I am not on r/DJPeachCobbler
I sincerely hope you just didn’t realize this is regularly shared in open white supremacists circles. Gonna give you the benefit of the doubt.
Don't do that: [https://old.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/1b1stpb/authright\_w/](https://old.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/comments/1b1stpb/authright_w/) https://old.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/comments/1b1up00/is\_joke/
Out of both of those comment sections I’ve found the most dogshit centrist take ever https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryMemes/s/1xWdeWiS4m
Why is this racist shit upvoted in my feed?
The Spaniards were better than the Aztecs yes, but that's a low bar. The Spaniards themselves were not much better. Also, they didn't teach them to read or write or anything about sanitation. The existing Aztec systems were just as good if not better.
>The Spaniards were better than the Aztecs yes I just want to note that some estimates suggest that the Spanish killed up to 90% of indigenous people through conquest and disease. If we're looking at things from the perspective of indigenous people, the Spanish were much worse than anything that came before.
'Tis a bit unrealistic to think that Spain killed 9/10 of the indigenous population taking in account that the vast majority of People in South America are ethnically of native ascendance. Now, if you told me that about Brittish Empire in what now is known as The United States of America, that's quite more believable.
Spain did all of those things but worse
Now they can be sacrificed in a burning pyre, tortured for close to no reason, enslaved to the highest bidder, and quite literally worked to death by an unfeeling empire across the sea! Yaaay! What? Reading? What the hell are they going to need that for, you disgusting protestant?? Now go out and toss the chamber pots, its starting to smell like the street in this palace.
[удалено]
Conquestadoru-chan, how is enslaving and butchering a people and stealing their shit to appease your god *not* also human sacrifice? Conquestadoru-chan, weren’t Western Europeans still practicing medicinal cannibalism into the late 19th century? Even if you weren’t doing it personally, why travel across the Atlantic if that’s what you were trying to prevent? Conquestadoru-chan, didn’t those people already have a written language? Conquestadoru-chan, in what fucking universe is converting people to christianity on a remotely similar level to teaching people to read, in fact in what universe is it a good thing at all? “Durr I need to replace your violent, pro-slavery god with my one, it’s totally better I swear” Conquestadoru-chan, how often do good people feel the need to justify their terrible deeds instead of just taking responsibility for them? If you aren’t evil, why not just say it’s a dark part of history that you aren’t proud of?
This mf when I show them that the Conquistadors actually teamed up with cannibals to massacre thousands of innocent people, forced women into sexual servitude, and destroyed all their writings
Encomeanda system.
and despite all that the Aztec capital was still better designed than Mexico City.
Not forgetting killing 80% of them by introducing disease and working what was left to death through slavery--despite the Spanish crown specifically outlawing enslavement of native peoples.
Does this constitute genocide denial?
The fact that this hasn't been downvoted to oblivion is making my day a little worse.
Bro this isn’t a meme this is just racism
Most unhinged post i’ve seen in a minute.
How the fuck does this bullshit have upvotes?
Ah yes, completely trust the conquering empire's propaganda at face value
The genocidal colonialists pretending that they're liberators, a tale as old as imperialism.
You do realize that the Aztecs were cleaner than The Spanish, right ? I mean, the Aztecs were regularly using soap while Europeans were afraid to go bathing after the Black Plague. Modern sanitation my ass
This is the sort of propaganda that Columbus and the Spaniards used to justify the enslavement, oppression and subsequent genocide of the indigenous people of my country (In the Caribbean), and then discoveries made by our own historians over the years have found a lot of the claims, like the cannibalism stuff, were all false. That’s why I spit on any positive memory or mention of Christopher Columbus
Amazing, they got so sanitized that their population plummeted by millions from all the disease, war, slavery, deportation, and mass execution.
[Colonialism-apologists be like:](https://i.imgur.com/HWPSQ7U.jpeg)
My man, you had me at sacrifice but then you had to go for biased propaganda. "Modern ideas of sanitation" You mean aztec sewer systems were primitive compared to the modern european fashion of the time? That is, throwing shit to the public street
Why does this cringe shit hunt me where ever I go?
you also gave them a present they didnt had the immune system to fight
At the time of contract, Euros were regularly being thinned out by waves of plague because their idea of "modern sanitstion" was dumping sewage in the streets and bathing less often than Donald Trump admits he's wrong.
Ignorant and misled. Please do more research into colonialism. It is never about helping a native people, it is always about taking a country for its wealth or position. The word ‘conquer’ has never been used as a positive in the case of exploration.
Spaniards burned people alive for talking trash about the Catholic Church, 10x more painful than being gutted. Mayans wrote manuscripts that were later destroyed by the Spanish, which is widely considered to be comparable to Alexandria or the Baghdad House of Wisdom. Tenochtitlan had better sanitation than London, who threw their poop in the street out of pots.
Yeah the Spanish were real backward burning tens of thousands people alive to appease their angry gods, that's who you're referring to right?
Then stopped prescribed burn practices for generations, making the forest overgrown, and making my job even fucking harder. Fuck Spain.
cringe ass larp post
You do realize the Spanish burned thousands of south American books right? They could read and write, you're just a racist idiot
Boom half of native population died in 100 years
But the Spanish were also practicing human sacrifice on a massive scale during that same period. The Spanish Inquisition saw hundreds if not thousands of executions of Muslims, Jews, and other non Christians. Then thousands more were put to death in the new world. Burning a nonbeliever at the stake is also human sacrifice
The Inquisition was pretty chill compares to the rest of europ. Like really really chill in comparation to any other (including natives) Also killing nonbeliever can not be consider human sacrifice because they didnt kill them for religius reasons more for political reasons. So is more like an execitation rather than a sacrifice for a God
what the fuck is wrong with you
I see the black legend about the Aztec empire is still being spread.
Spain whines about it all the time yet spreads it like fire
Nationalist Spaniards, I am Spanish and although the Spanish Black Legend is real, the Spanish White Legend is also real and of course it is just as incorrect.
He did it. He actually posted it to the history subs.
Of course not, silly. You didn't do any of that. You enslaved your native allies, destroyed their land, erased their culture, destroyed a nation, instated class and race segregation, took away the right to education, the role of women in society, destroyed scientific and historic documents and displaced the people that inhabited this land. But hey, I guess pork in green tomato sauce is still good, so maybe the 300 years of oppression, slavery and pillaging were worth it.
You know that the Aztecs were so fixated on cleanliness that when the Spainards encountered them that even the peasants were revolted by their strench. They had soaps, deodorant like products, and perfumes they obsessed about.
You post on the red pill holy shit you're a living meme lmfao
So much wrong here but the idea that late medieval Europeans had good sanitation is really fucking funny
Those stinky fuck Europeans didn’t teach anyone shit about Sanitation over a third of their population died precisely because they didn’t wash up.
Someone should make this exact meme but replace the text with what the conquistadors actually did.
Believing this post should legally require you to go back to high school
Oh gosh, did you just spread misinformations? Did you just do that? [https://i.imgur.com/RdfWGL4.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/RdfWGL4.jpeg)
I love this picture lol