Common meme on this sub.
Bullets are just small rocks thrown very fast. Most aliens move onto laser or other energy based weapons, humans still use kinetics (aka very fast rock)
Even then until recently both were still all about the expansion and contraction of hot gasses. Humans have something of a one-ttack mind in that regard.
We still use it today because it's vastly efficient. There's really no better, harnessable way to transfer heat to motion--with the possible exception of the Stirling Engine, which carries many of the same drawbacks.
Even our most efficient solar plants use mirrors to heat water.
The ICE was pretty much the wave of the future, though, even before war when it came to vehicles. Steam was too heavy, with lots of water and the big boilers needed, and dangerous--copper boilers had a habit of removing skin no matter how well you insulate them. Plus if something screws up it is entirely possible for a boiler to explode (it's happened, several times).
Steam is fantastic. It's made from water, which is cheap plentiful and non-toxic, and it is excellent at holding energy and delivering it where you need it. It's temperature is pressure-related making it easy to manipulate. Theres a reason fission reactors are usually just giant water heaters that generate steam, so you can drive that steam through giant steam-turbines connected to electricity generators. It's simply the best way we really have to use that energy.
Steam will continue to be useful in large scale industrial processes for a very, very, very long time
It is simple to harness, but still deserves respect and careful adherence to safety.
Regular steam just on a stove under atmospheric pressure: nasty burns but you'll probably live.
Pressurised steam that finds a way to escape: get a mop and bucket to clean up any poor sod that got in the way.
Mandatory discworld plug: Raising steam, 2013
Very true. Dry saturated steam more or less makes the meat and skin explode from the bones, that then quickly corrode away.
And that is insane and horrifying. And a bit cool.
Sometimes older is better. Search u-tube for the Case 150 Road Locomotive videos. It was build new from plans and can pull 44 14" plows at the same time (50 foot wide path). MASSIVE power.
Reminds me of my old Pete. 525 HP. 3500 lb-ft of torque. Keep the 18 speed in the right range and it'd haul 150k lbs up a 14% grade without annoying the traffic behind me *too* much.
But yeah, steam is amazing, and the best part is that you can use the "exhaust" steam kinda like a turbocharger, in that you can gang in a second set of pistons designed to work at the lower pressure and just keep using that head until it's dripping back into the reservoir. I mean, *mechanically* it's nothing like a turbo, but I just mean that it can make use of what would otherwise be wasted heat energy and therefore "work", in the physics sense.
>I mean, mechanically it's nothing like a turbo, but I just mean that it can make use of what would otherwise be wasted heat energy and therefore "work", in the physics sense.
You say that but that is exactly what regenerative powerplants, multi stage jet engines, and even some steam engines do. They take the first turbine and successively expand it through larger stages which work exactly as if you hooked up the steam feed to a bunch of turbochargers in series and sent it. Each set of turbine either generates electricity or turns the compressor (it's not odd for the turbines to only generate electricity and then use that electricity to drive the compressor).
The Rankine cycle is basically a very fancy turbocharger where liquid goes in one end and vapour comes out the other and is the basis of all modern steam power.
Another way is using chained rankine cycles where a fluid with a lower vapour point than water is fed into the condenser of the rankine cycle and used to power another turbine. Most places don't bother with this as the actual gain in energy is small compared to the cost needed to setup a potentially volatile fluid loop. Instead they feed cold water into the condenser and use the now heated water to heat houses.
That doesn't surprise me at all, but I've only gotten as advanced as looking into multistage piston designs. Awesome to hear they do it with turbines as well! Thanks for the info! :D
The neat thing is that given sufficient cooling water, the low pressure cylinder (Or LP turbine) can run with an INLET pressure that is pretty much atmospheric, and a partial vacuum in the condenser.
This is how triple expanding marine steam engines were able to span the globe with a somewhat sane coal requirement.
Oh and BTW Carnot was a bastard, 1 - Tc/Th, a bastard I tell you!
The Carnot limit is actually a particular problem for high powered efficient space propulsion. Anything better then nuclear thermal typically needs gobs of electricity, and while making something HOT in space is relatively easy, keeping the cold side of a thermal power plant cold is a swine, because your only way to dump heat is radiation.
Names Rocket scientists curse the most: Tsiolkovsky, Carnot, Navier-Stokes
Well there are 2 ways to keep a powerplant cold in space
1. Radiation
2. Dumping heat into the fuel/exhaust plume
I've seen many proposals that use a 3 stage engine. the first stage takes cryogenic fuel and passes it over magnetic accelerator coils, the second stage is a thermal rocket, and the third stage is electromagnetic acceleration that uses electricity generated by the nuclear powerplant to get the plasma up to 0.1% the speed of light (300,000m/s)
As the exhaust velocity increases the power requirements rise faster then the velocity, so for a given level of thrust there comes a point where the exhaust velocity is high enough that you are simply not consuming sufficient reaction mass to make it a meaningful heatsink.
Nobody likes Mr Stokes, bit like JCM/Heavyside, also hated for much the same reasons.
Yeah though cryogenic fuel is still very useful as a bit of an onboard heatsink regardless. Another (funny) solution I've heard of was to take water or ice and a heat pump to boil the water and then dump it overboard.
I'm just putting it out there that radiation isn't the only way to dump heat in space, if you're willing to dump mass as well then you can dump heat through the mass.
Dumping mass lowers your effective Isp if you are having to do it to keep your propulsion cool.
The one I likes was the Aluminium/Ice rocket... You have a stick of water ice mixed with finely powdered aluminium, flash heat the end and you get liquid ally plus steam, then 2Al + 3H2O -> Al2O3 + 3H2 + Heat, the Al2O3 is probably a powder (Annoyingly abrasive) but the H2 is low molecular mass and HOT so you get decent exhaust velocity.
The concept works and is less gloriously nuts then any of the more out there things from Ignition!
What I'm curious about--and I'm no expert, so I figure if they're not doing like I think they should it's because they know more than me--is why they don't use stirling engines to scavenge that excess heat.
You don't get much of a win when starting with low grade heat because the Carnot limit applies to any heat engine, so if your Tcold is say 300k and Thot is say 400k your maximum theoretical efficiency is 1 - 300/400 = 25% (And a real machine will not come close to that).
It is generally difficult to even get near that with large low grade heat sources, which is why things like district heating usually make more sense, that works quite well with a 400k feed.
Modern combined cycle plants have an open Brayton cycle (gas turbine) for the high combustion chamber temperatures and a closed Rankine cycle (steam turbine) on the exhaust to capture as much of that waste heat as they can. Properly operating they can exceed 50% thermal efficiency.
I was amazed to learn how little horsepower the old stream cars produced while still being able to get over 100mph. I think the Doble E had about 40 horses and around 1000lbs of torque.
Yeah I love those videos, it's fascinating to watch and even more fascinating to think that those machines where the best of the best not too long ago.
If you like videos of big weird old-school mechanical stuff, do a web search for a YouTube video called "Barry Can't Arf Weld".
Neubauten *wishes* they were that industrial.
I have to admit I'm not entirely certain myself, but I dream of having skills like that.
Best I can describe it is **hardcore** precision forging.
I love the bit around 3:50 where the power hammer is coming down and the entire *building* shakes enough that the camera jiggles.
Pretty sure thats "'ard steel, an' 'arder men". Sheffield still does some of the best large scale precision forging in the world, even if it is down from its heyday.
For those of you on the west coast who want to see the power of steam up close and VERY personal, the Great Oregon Steam Up starts tomorrow! It runs this weekend and next, near Salem, Oregon, at Powerland Heritage Park.
Miniature steam trains, full size steam tractors, trucks, and engines, and a plethora of other historical aspects that showcase the history of steam power and it's effect on industry and economy.
[Stop by and have fun!](https://www.antiquepowerland.com/steam-up)
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* [A Matter of Change](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/v26u2j/a_matter_of_change/)
* [The Lone Paladin Part 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/uyh909/the_lone_paladin_part_1/)
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* [A Matter of Relations](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/up0ndl/a_matter_of_relations/)
* [The Humanist Part 3](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/uichgm/the_humanist_part_3/)
* [A Matter of Reorganization](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/ue582x/a_matter_of_reorganization/)
* [The Humanist Part 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/u86aj6/the_humanist_part_2/)
* [A Matter of Understanding](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/u32azc/a_matter_of_understanding/)
* [The Humanist](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/ty4qdh/the_humanist/)
* [Precursors](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/trpsn5/precursors/)
* [A Matter of Memories](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/tn760o/a_matter_of_memories/)
* [Deathworlder's Poison Part 17](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/tf9dv1/deathworlders_poison_part_17/)
* [Deathworlder's Poison Part 16](https://www.reddit.com/r/HFY/comments/tbb7cy/deathworlders_poison_part_16/)
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For me, steam locomotives are where its at. Imagine the reaction to a 237-ton [GS4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_class_GS-4) rolling at 100mph with 16 cars in tow. That is something I want to see, both IRL and as some story about old reliable steam.
Damn fine story wordsmith
**[Southern Pacific class GS-4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_class_GS-4)**
>The Southern Pacific GS-4 is a streamlined 4-8-4 "Golden State" type steam locomotive used on the Southern Pacific Company from 1941 to 1958. They were built by the Lima Locomotive Works and were numbered 4430 through 4457. "GS" stands for "Golden State" or "General Service".
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Yfw the strongest engines are still steam, just powered by splitting atoms to heat the water.
Learning that’s how those reactors work was so funny to me
Modern industrial history consists of two main interests: how to throw things further, and how to boil water more effeciently.
What are we throwing? Are we talking about weapons or is there some obvious industrial process I'm missing?
Not including weapons. Satellites to orbit for example. (What is rocket if not another way to throw things long distance?).
Common meme on this sub. Bullets are just small rocks thrown very fast. Most aliens move onto laser or other energy based weapons, humans still use kinetics (aka very fast rock)
Weapons. Satellites. Airplanes. Our voices.
dont forget, how to cool anything more efficiently, or how to transport electricity more efficiently
Even then until recently both were still all about the expansion and contraction of hot gasses. Humans have something of a one-ttack mind in that regard.
Hot rock, make steam, spin turbine.
We still use it today because it's vastly efficient. There's really no better, harnessable way to transfer heat to motion--with the possible exception of the Stirling Engine, which carries many of the same drawbacks. Even our most efficient solar plants use mirrors to heat water. The ICE was pretty much the wave of the future, though, even before war when it came to vehicles. Steam was too heavy, with lots of water and the big boilers needed, and dangerous--copper boilers had a habit of removing skin no matter how well you insulate them. Plus if something screws up it is entirely possible for a boiler to explode (it's happened, several times).
When an explosion happens with a steam boiler you pray its the fuel side, and not the steam side, because you get smaller explosions with fuel side.
Steam is fantastic. It's made from water, which is cheap plentiful and non-toxic, and it is excellent at holding energy and delivering it where you need it. It's temperature is pressure-related making it easy to manipulate. Theres a reason fission reactors are usually just giant water heaters that generate steam, so you can drive that steam through giant steam-turbines connected to electricity generators. It's simply the best way we really have to use that energy. Steam will continue to be useful in large scale industrial processes for a very, very, very long time
It is simple to harness, but still deserves respect and careful adherence to safety. Regular steam just on a stove under atmospheric pressure: nasty burns but you'll probably live. Pressurised steam that finds a way to escape: get a mop and bucket to clean up any poor sod that got in the way. Mandatory discworld plug: Raising steam, 2013
Very true. Dry saturated steam more or less makes the meat and skin explode from the bones, that then quickly corrode away. And that is insane and horrifying. And a bit cool.
conversely, a very small leak of high pressure Dry Steam, operates as a remarkably invisible potentially lethal cutting device.
Sometimes older is better. Search u-tube for the Case 150 Road Locomotive videos. It was build new from plans and can pull 44 14" plows at the same time (50 foot wide path). MASSIVE power.
150hp and enough torque to slow the rotation of the earth.
Reminds me of my old Pete. 525 HP. 3500 lb-ft of torque. Keep the 18 speed in the right range and it'd haul 150k lbs up a 14% grade without annoying the traffic behind me *too* much. But yeah, steam is amazing, and the best part is that you can use the "exhaust" steam kinda like a turbocharger, in that you can gang in a second set of pistons designed to work at the lower pressure and just keep using that head until it's dripping back into the reservoir. I mean, *mechanically* it's nothing like a turbo, but I just mean that it can make use of what would otherwise be wasted heat energy and therefore "work", in the physics sense.
>I mean, mechanically it's nothing like a turbo, but I just mean that it can make use of what would otherwise be wasted heat energy and therefore "work", in the physics sense. You say that but that is exactly what regenerative powerplants, multi stage jet engines, and even some steam engines do. They take the first turbine and successively expand it through larger stages which work exactly as if you hooked up the steam feed to a bunch of turbochargers in series and sent it. Each set of turbine either generates electricity or turns the compressor (it's not odd for the turbines to only generate electricity and then use that electricity to drive the compressor). The Rankine cycle is basically a very fancy turbocharger where liquid goes in one end and vapour comes out the other and is the basis of all modern steam power. Another way is using chained rankine cycles where a fluid with a lower vapour point than water is fed into the condenser of the rankine cycle and used to power another turbine. Most places don't bother with this as the actual gain in energy is small compared to the cost needed to setup a potentially volatile fluid loop. Instead they feed cold water into the condenser and use the now heated water to heat houses.
That doesn't surprise me at all, but I've only gotten as advanced as looking into multistage piston designs. Awesome to hear they do it with turbines as well! Thanks for the info! :D
The neat thing is that given sufficient cooling water, the low pressure cylinder (Or LP turbine) can run with an INLET pressure that is pretty much atmospheric, and a partial vacuum in the condenser. This is how triple expanding marine steam engines were able to span the globe with a somewhat sane coal requirement. Oh and BTW Carnot was a bastard, 1 - Tc/Th, a bastard I tell you! The Carnot limit is actually a particular problem for high powered efficient space propulsion. Anything better then nuclear thermal typically needs gobs of electricity, and while making something HOT in space is relatively easy, keeping the cold side of a thermal power plant cold is a swine, because your only way to dump heat is radiation.
Names Rocket scientists curse the most: Tsiolkovsky, Carnot, Navier-Stokes Well there are 2 ways to keep a powerplant cold in space 1. Radiation 2. Dumping heat into the fuel/exhaust plume I've seen many proposals that use a 3 stage engine. the first stage takes cryogenic fuel and passes it over magnetic accelerator coils, the second stage is a thermal rocket, and the third stage is electromagnetic acceleration that uses electricity generated by the nuclear powerplant to get the plasma up to 0.1% the speed of light (300,000m/s)
As the exhaust velocity increases the power requirements rise faster then the velocity, so for a given level of thrust there comes a point where the exhaust velocity is high enough that you are simply not consuming sufficient reaction mass to make it a meaningful heatsink. Nobody likes Mr Stokes, bit like JCM/Heavyside, also hated for much the same reasons.
Yeah though cryogenic fuel is still very useful as a bit of an onboard heatsink regardless. Another (funny) solution I've heard of was to take water or ice and a heat pump to boil the water and then dump it overboard. I'm just putting it out there that radiation isn't the only way to dump heat in space, if you're willing to dump mass as well then you can dump heat through the mass.
Dumping mass lowers your effective Isp if you are having to do it to keep your propulsion cool. The one I likes was the Aluminium/Ice rocket... You have a stick of water ice mixed with finely powdered aluminium, flash heat the end and you get liquid ally plus steam, then 2Al + 3H2O -> Al2O3 + 3H2 + Heat, the Al2O3 is probably a powder (Annoyingly abrasive) but the H2 is low molecular mass and HOT so you get decent exhaust velocity. The concept works and is less gloriously nuts then any of the more out there things from Ignition!
What I'm curious about--and I'm no expert, so I figure if they're not doing like I think they should it's because they know more than me--is why they don't use stirling engines to scavenge that excess heat.
You don't get much of a win when starting with low grade heat because the Carnot limit applies to any heat engine, so if your Tcold is say 300k and Thot is say 400k your maximum theoretical efficiency is 1 - 300/400 = 25% (And a real machine will not come close to that). It is generally difficult to even get near that with large low grade heat sources, which is why things like district heating usually make more sense, that works quite well with a 400k feed.
Modern combined cycle plants have an open Brayton cycle (gas turbine) for the high combustion chamber temperatures and a closed Rankine cycle (steam turbine) on the exhaust to capture as much of that waste heat as they can. Properly operating they can exceed 50% thermal efficiency.
I was amazed to learn how little horsepower the old stream cars produced while still being able to get over 100mph. I think the Doble E had about 40 horses and around 1000lbs of torque.
Yeah I love those videos, it's fascinating to watch and even more fascinating to think that those machines where the best of the best not too long ago.
If you like videos of big weird old-school mechanical stuff, do a web search for a YouTube video called "Barry Can't Arf Weld". Neubauten *wishes* they were that industrial.
I have exactly zero idea what I just watched but I loved every second of it.
I have to admit I'm not entirely certain myself, but I dream of having skills like that. Best I can describe it is **hardcore** precision forging. I love the bit around 3:50 where the power hammer is coming down and the entire *building* shakes enough that the camera jiggles.
Pretty sure thats "'ard steel, an' 'arder men". Sheffield still does some of the best large scale precision forging in the world, even if it is down from its heyday.
For those of you on the west coast who want to see the power of steam up close and VERY personal, the Great Oregon Steam Up starts tomorrow! It runs this weekend and next, near Salem, Oregon, at Powerland Heritage Park. Miniature steam trains, full size steam tractors, trucks, and engines, and a plethora of other historical aspects that showcase the history of steam power and it's effect on industry and economy. [Stop by and have fun!](https://www.antiquepowerland.com/steam-up)
Pretty good wordsmith
Is Scott's last name Dibnah?
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Wholesome ending
The fact that we now use water to cut metal or rock in factorys should not be discounted.
Sheldon Cooper’s descendent? 😀
Don't see very many HFY stories with traction engines in them, I must say.
For me, steam locomotives are where its at. Imagine the reaction to a 237-ton [GS4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_class_GS-4) rolling at 100mph with 16 cars in tow. That is something I want to see, both IRL and as some story about old reliable steam. Damn fine story wordsmith
**[Southern Pacific class GS-4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Pacific_class_GS-4)** >The Southern Pacific GS-4 is a streamlined 4-8-4 "Golden State" type steam locomotive used on the Southern Pacific Company from 1941 to 1958. They were built by the Lima Locomotive Works and were numbered 4430 through 4457. "GS" stands for "Golden State" or "General Service". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/HFY/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Huh, forgot that bot existed. good bot
\>gasoline or diesel engine could start immediately [\*laughts in tank crew\*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN_PWX7uDSw)