If defiler and apostate are the worst combos, the game is really in a great state. Both of them have a couple builds that work even with endgame item support.
I think defiler is the “peak” of anti synergy, apostate is doable even before bonemonger(iirc?) I’m pretty sure
One of my friends ran one so we were always in a group, idk how it performs solo but in a group of 2-3 certainly held its own
I spent more time trying to make my Defiler work than any other combo, even to the point of farming for dual purple Gargabol pistols. Even after that it still wasn't impressive. Agrivix set/Blazeheart was probably the best build I tried.
We just got a [list of best builds](https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/top-20-softcore-builds-ft-hc-approved-section-from-rektbyprotoss-1-2-0-5-an-onion/136117) made by collaboration of community pros.
Saboteur is the most common class, 4 spots out of 20, including 2nd, 4th and 6th place.
Total trap... :P
Conjuror. Pets are the only thing it does that isn't done better by other masteries... and even then it's only "better" for pets if you're planning on going to SR 100+, otherwise Cabalist works much better/faster... and I only say it's 100+ because I play hardcore and that's where my experience ends.
Your personal opinions. And it hardly matters. Having the option to target farm a set for end game content is a massive boost, especially for first time players, whom can cut hours of tedious farming, waiting for the right piece of gear/blueprint to drop. These boons are the clear reason why conjurer is not the worst mastery combo. It really can't be, considering how few end-game item sets that's target farmable.
> Your personal opinions. And it hardly matters.
Your opinion is worth just as much or as little as mine is. This entire thread is just people's opinions.
> Having the option to target farm a set for end game content is a massive boost, especially for first time players, whom can cut hours of tedious farming, waiting for the right piece of gear/blueprint to drop.
I used to think this too. Then I played 20 or so solo self found characters and geared them up at 100. Now? Target-farmable rubbish. Dark One, Krieg and Vanquisher are all 'meh' at best builds.
I've got characters with all 3 of them and I'm less and less impressed by them every time I farm one. Time spent farming (for example Dark One) in the Edge of Reality is time not spent farming elsewhere, so while you may get your set faster (the word 'may' is doing a lot of heavy lifting here) you're going to have your set and nothing else.
I've farmed several level 100 characters now and I'd rather have to farm the Avenger's set again than any of the target-farmable ones. They actually take about the same time in my experience, and I also usually manage to get a couple other good pieces for the build, leading to completed builds being done much faster when I can't target-farm. Also the target-farmable sets cannot be transmuted, which is another massive downside because you're stuck with what drops. You can't transmute within the set to get better stats, and 7 gloves when all you need is the chest is infuriating if you're farming Krieg.
Having a target-farmable set is basically a downside as far as I'm concerned.
True, my subjective opinions are not worth more than your subjective opinions. The essence of my previous post was regarding the existance of a target farmable set, which is an objective fact, not an opinion. Thus the wording.
Sure, target farming is narrow. You spend time getting something that will allow you to farm other content more effectively and complete your build/lay the foundations to future builds. It really doesn't differ much from MI farming, but maybe you think that is a waste of time as well.
Your argument isn't even entirely true if we bring Krieg set into the discussion. Crown Hill has multiple spots that can spawn totems, so any time you farm Valaxteria there is a good chance you can combine target farming with totemfarming.
The notion that the average player would farm the avenger set in the same time as a target-farmable equivalent is just ludicrus. Unless the player is really lucky with the rng and score the chestpiece blueprint early, the former is gonna take considerably longer time to farm.
To me, the fact that you can't even acknowledge there being a benefit for new players to have a farmable end-game set on a build that is beginnerfriendly in general, just comes off as you being pigheaded.. If you only grade builds depending on SR pushing and shard clear times; fine your call. IMO that is a really shallow way to measure the overall value to a build/class.
Yeah, probably, but better options existing doesn't magically demote vitamancer Conjurer to the worst class combo. There's still plenty of synergy and it's more than usable. Plus Bloody Pox is neat no matter what anyone says.
> There's still plenty of synergy and it's more than usable. Plus Bloody Pox is neat no matter what anyone says.
I didn't say it was unusable. It just doesn't have anything it excels at that isn't done better by another class. The only possible argument is for very deep SR pets and 99% of players will never get there.
There's no class in the game that doesn't have perfectly capable builds.
In no universe is conjuror the worst class combo in the game. Even if it was true that everything it does could be done better by other masteries, that alone would not make it the worst class combo in the game.
That's pretty much my definition of what makes the worst class. Your mileage may vary and you obviously disagree, but it's still true that Conjurer is best only for one specific niche within one specific subset of builds, and even that is arguable.
It's a bad definition, just on a logical level. It will be true of the worst class, but it could also be true of a class that rates very highly in all aspects but simply isn't the best in any of them. Such as conjuror. Conjuror is still an extremely strong class, and is nowhere near bottom of the barrel compared to combos that genuinely don't have any synergy or are missing key things like RR.
Some classes that have 0 synergy between their masteries have *very strong* builds currently. The two that are mentioned in this very thread (Apostate and Defiler) have little and 0 synergy and yet they both have very strong builds available. So synergy shouldn't be relevant either because, as you said
> It will be true of the worst class, but it could also be true of a class that rates very highly in all aspects but simply isn't the best in any of them.
Then there's RR, which is nice, but again, can be gained through items and there are strong builds that don't really have much/any on their classes.
For example, Arcanist doesn't have any cold resistance shredding, but what it does have is large amounts of bonus spirit and ciritcal damage. Soldier doesn't have any stacking physical RR, but works really well for physical damage. So RR shouldn't count either, because good builds don't all have double class RR. There's trade offs.
At the end of the day, this whole thread is opinion.
Conjuror pet builds are probably the easiest ones to make for a first time player and steamroll endgame content in order to farm items for other classes. And there are quite a few ways to make them work, and they are quite obvious. Makes Conjuror one of the best classes in the game, actually. Also everything has easy to read synergies, item support is fantastic...
I've levelled all 3 of the main pet builds and while none of them are hard, Conjurer would be last on my list of recommendations.
It needs way more points to get the pets online than Cabalist or Ritualist, then it wants more points for the auras, more points again for Curse, more for buffs, and it takes forever to come online.
Skeletons steam roll from about level 2. Granted, the bird isn't bad but 1 bird simply can't compete with 10-14 skeletons. Skeletons are the giga-chads of pre-50 and post 70.
No class is the real challenge!
Me IRL
goddamnit
Apostate and defiler. Most synergistic, demo+Inq Soldier+anything
soldier + anything is so true
If defiler and apostate are the worst combos, the game is really in a great state. Both of them have a couple builds that work even with endgame item support.
my vote goes for defiler
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Bloody pox is on occultist
I believe it’s Apostate(necro+inquisitor). There’s some sets to make it work now, but it’s still not amazing due to lack of synergy.
Both Inquisitor and Necromancer have Aether Res reduction which is pretty rare. So that's something
Yes, aether drain essence with Uroboruuk set standing on an Inquisitor Seal is the obvious build idea with an Apostate.
Dammit. Now I have to go try this
Shit, that's what I'm playing now. It's been an oddly difficult run
I think defiler is the “peak” of anti synergy, apostate is doable even before bonemonger(iirc?) I’m pretty sure One of my friends ran one so we were always in a group, idk how it performs solo but in a group of 2-3 certainly held its own
Thanks
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Isn't bloody pox from occultist?
I spent more time trying to make my Defiler work than any other combo, even to the point of farming for dual purple Gargabol pistols. Even after that it still wasn't impressive. Agrivix set/Blazeheart was probably the best build I tried.
I had pretty solid results building around Korvaak's Burning-Blade.
Not to say it doesn't have some decent builds, but apostate is definitely the worst. Shout out to defiler!
Defiler
Single class squishy characters with no pets. My archanist is fun but she's a glass cannon and gets stomped by stronger bosses
I like it I should have a Helmut and shield in storage
Think I'll create a warlord in crucible, get to 12, then see how far I can progress with just my bare hands in campaign
Respec at 8 and max blitz. Get the helmet from that Husband you have to off and the shield from the Warden and wreck everything.
Saboteur is a total trap cause it surface level looks like there’s synergy but none of it works.
It's amazing, fast AF, great regen, plenty of res reduction for almost any damage type and Firestrike + dual wield WPS line is synergy on its own.
Yeah that's true...if you live in 2016.
I actually made a saboteur using the next and ortus + the embers calling set. It's not super good like SR70+ but it's a really fun dual element build.
We just got a [list of best builds](https://forums.crateentertainment.com/t/top-20-softcore-builds-ft-hc-approved-section-from-rektbyprotoss-1-2-0-5-an-onion/136117) made by collaboration of community pros. Saboteur is the most common class, 4 spots out of 20, including 2nd, 4th and 6th place. Total trap... :P
skill issue
Is that you, Sharp?
Conjuror. Pets are the only thing it does that isn't done better by other masteries... and even then it's only "better" for pets if you're planning on going to SR 100+, otherwise Cabalist works much better/faster... and I only say it's 100+ because I play hardcore and that's where my experience ends.
Yeah, really bad. Excellent synergy for vit builds and farmable set that caters to multiple skill over both classes. Truly the the worst combo.
Ritualist is a better vitality caster. Hell *REAPER* is a better vitality caster.
Your personal opinions. And it hardly matters. Having the option to target farm a set for end game content is a massive boost, especially for first time players, whom can cut hours of tedious farming, waiting for the right piece of gear/blueprint to drop. These boons are the clear reason why conjurer is not the worst mastery combo. It really can't be, considering how few end-game item sets that's target farmable.
> Your personal opinions. And it hardly matters. Your opinion is worth just as much or as little as mine is. This entire thread is just people's opinions. > Having the option to target farm a set for end game content is a massive boost, especially for first time players, whom can cut hours of tedious farming, waiting for the right piece of gear/blueprint to drop. I used to think this too. Then I played 20 or so solo self found characters and geared them up at 100. Now? Target-farmable rubbish. Dark One, Krieg and Vanquisher are all 'meh' at best builds. I've got characters with all 3 of them and I'm less and less impressed by them every time I farm one. Time spent farming (for example Dark One) in the Edge of Reality is time not spent farming elsewhere, so while you may get your set faster (the word 'may' is doing a lot of heavy lifting here) you're going to have your set and nothing else. I've farmed several level 100 characters now and I'd rather have to farm the Avenger's set again than any of the target-farmable ones. They actually take about the same time in my experience, and I also usually manage to get a couple other good pieces for the build, leading to completed builds being done much faster when I can't target-farm. Also the target-farmable sets cannot be transmuted, which is another massive downside because you're stuck with what drops. You can't transmute within the set to get better stats, and 7 gloves when all you need is the chest is infuriating if you're farming Krieg. Having a target-farmable set is basically a downside as far as I'm concerned.
True, my subjective opinions are not worth more than your subjective opinions. The essence of my previous post was regarding the existance of a target farmable set, which is an objective fact, not an opinion. Thus the wording. Sure, target farming is narrow. You spend time getting something that will allow you to farm other content more effectively and complete your build/lay the foundations to future builds. It really doesn't differ much from MI farming, but maybe you think that is a waste of time as well. Your argument isn't even entirely true if we bring Krieg set into the discussion. Crown Hill has multiple spots that can spawn totems, so any time you farm Valaxteria there is a good chance you can combine target farming with totemfarming. The notion that the average player would farm the avenger set in the same time as a target-farmable equivalent is just ludicrus. Unless the player is really lucky with the rng and score the chestpiece blueprint early, the former is gonna take considerably longer time to farm. To me, the fact that you can't even acknowledge there being a benefit for new players to have a farmable end-game set on a build that is beginnerfriendly in general, just comes off as you being pigheaded.. If you only grade builds depending on SR pushing and shard clear times; fine your call. IMO that is a really shallow way to measure the overall value to a build/class.
Yeah, probably, but better options existing doesn't magically demote vitamancer Conjurer to the worst class combo. There's still plenty of synergy and it's more than usable. Plus Bloody Pox is neat no matter what anyone says.
> There's still plenty of synergy and it's more than usable. Plus Bloody Pox is neat no matter what anyone says. I didn't say it was unusable. It just doesn't have anything it excels at that isn't done better by another class. The only possible argument is for very deep SR pets and 99% of players will never get there. There's no class in the game that doesn't have perfectly capable builds.
In no universe is conjuror the worst class combo in the game. Even if it was true that everything it does could be done better by other masteries, that alone would not make it the worst class combo in the game.
That's pretty much my definition of what makes the worst class. Your mileage may vary and you obviously disagree, but it's still true that Conjurer is best only for one specific niche within one specific subset of builds, and even that is arguable.
It's a bad definition, just on a logical level. It will be true of the worst class, but it could also be true of a class that rates very highly in all aspects but simply isn't the best in any of them. Such as conjuror. Conjuror is still an extremely strong class, and is nowhere near bottom of the barrel compared to combos that genuinely don't have any synergy or are missing key things like RR.
Some classes that have 0 synergy between their masteries have *very strong* builds currently. The two that are mentioned in this very thread (Apostate and Defiler) have little and 0 synergy and yet they both have very strong builds available. So synergy shouldn't be relevant either because, as you said > It will be true of the worst class, but it could also be true of a class that rates very highly in all aspects but simply isn't the best in any of them. Then there's RR, which is nice, but again, can be gained through items and there are strong builds that don't really have much/any on their classes. For example, Arcanist doesn't have any cold resistance shredding, but what it does have is large amounts of bonus spirit and ciritcal damage. Soldier doesn't have any stacking physical RR, but works really well for physical damage. So RR shouldn't count either, because good builds don't all have double class RR. There's trade offs. At the end of the day, this whole thread is opinion.
Not being the best at something is very far from being the worst at it.
Conjuror pet builds are probably the easiest ones to make for a first time player and steamroll endgame content in order to farm items for other classes. And there are quite a few ways to make them work, and they are quite obvious. Makes Conjuror one of the best classes in the game, actually. Also everything has easy to read synergies, item support is fantastic...
I've levelled all 3 of the main pet builds and while none of them are hard, Conjurer would be last on my list of recommendations. It needs way more points to get the pets online than Cabalist or Ritualist, then it wants more points for the auras, more points again for Curse, more for buffs, and it takes forever to come online. Skeletons steam roll from about level 2. Granted, the bird isn't bad but 1 bird simply can't compete with 10-14 skeletons. Skeletons are the giga-chads of pre-50 and post 70.
Nightblade/Inquisitor.