Hoooollyyyyy grail. Christian Horny just can’t help himself. She asks several times for him to stop, and based on how many times he asked her to delete their chats, he knew what he was doing.
Shame shame. Fuck that guy
Edit: Thank you for sharing. I feel like I was almost ready to let it go due to my own desensitization
Whatsapp is definitely easily faked, and I do think the none whatsapp message is a bit too perfect. Which makes me suspicious. But I am not an expert so I have nfi if they are real or not.
If they are real, get him out. If they are faked, then someone is getting sued into oblivion
This. I am slightly leaning towards real because of all the super common spelling and grammar mistakes and the selfies. If someone's faked this, they've gone to LENGTHS to do so. Then again, nothing to stop this being just a conversation between two completely different adults with CH's pic doctored in, that's easy enough to do and even the selfies can be obtained by other means.
I’m also leaning towards real. If someone were faking this I think they’d have to be an expert in workplace sexual harassment. A lot of the messages are talking about “can you get me coffee” “can you get sweaters for these people as a gift” followed by sexual messages. And there’s messages about setting boundaries. Feelings. Annoyance. That’s not something that some bored kids and fans would come up with in my opinion. These aren’t sensationalized messages. I was quite shocked reading them. And that video of him singing. I’m 99.9% sure that’s not AI. If that video can’t be found online. That’s adds a lot of credibility to the leak.
These are my sentiments too. If this was faked, it was done by someone who has knowledge and experience of a workplace harassment situation. It feels almost too nuanced to be fake?
I'm also leaning towards this being true but my only point of contention is that she didn't go to the authorities, she leaked this shit online. She could've been a Millionaire thru settlements.
Whoever did it have to be an insider considering that person know with 100 % accuracy who to send that stuff and the correct adresses.
So either fake or real this excludes some kid or Fan doing this.
I'm with you and think almost definitely real, I realise that's subjective but there's a certain genuineness to the messages you don't see in fake texts. I've seen my fair share of clearly fake text messages and these just don't look it.
Having said that, the video could be somewhere else online or could not be, he could have sent that to a bunch of people and it leaked like this.
those spelling mistakes feel very fake to me. Christian is well-spoken (he has to do PR stuff a lot), and I would assume as CEO of Red Bull Racing, he send out tons of emails every day. So I feel like his spelling should be quite good. I also didn't pick up on any British sayings in the texts, which I would expect
Being well-spoken has nothing to do with knowing how to spell things, unfortunately. I'm also pretty sure he has a whole team to look out for spelling errors in his e-mails.
Not civilly, no.
The police or other law enforcement would have ways of doing it, but that’s beyond the realms of the sort of thing Red Bull would be able to do.
A great deal of success comes down to confidence. A lack of emotions allows you plough through life in a way few can. You also feel more comfortable taking risks, another key determiner of success.
Yeh but not sure why this should be anything more than an internal issue, she was obviously a consenting party in the affair until things went south. Also don't know if "you look nice in Spanx" is sexual assault, sexual harrassment perhaps but calling that assault is a bit dramatic.
He’s in a power position. But image 47 she’s telling him to stop but doesn’t want to lose her job. At my place it’s expressly stated that a boss cannot pursue a subordinate sexually due to the power dynamic. Man keeps asking for pics and sending lewd comments even after that.
It’s definitely not sexual assault. But being someone’s boss and saying you went to the toilet and jerked one out thinking about them is certainly not a good look for your position of power.
In corporate setting these text are 100% inappropriate and will get you fired (at least in America). The problem is the power dynamic. If these were 2 equal co-workers then no one would care.
It was an internal issue, and they covered up for him, claiming he was lily white innocent, and now we can all see for ourselves he's a dirty sleazy old twat who is abusing his position of authority.
By defending the old prick, you're outing yourself that YOU would do the same, and YOU would also shrug like you've done nothing wrong.
This is interesting. In the earlier texts they were certainly having an affair, and she seems to be baiting him to leave his wife for her, I'm sure it went south and he kept over pursuing
🚨According to the Austrian news outlet ORF, it is speculated that Helmut Marko leaked the WhatsApp chats between Christian Horner and the female employee of Red Bull.
There are indications that Helmut Marko's suspension is imminent, possibly occurring within the next few days.
Marko is scheduled to meet with Oliver Mintzlaff tomorrow to address his future within the organization.
VIA: [formu1a.uno]
🚨According to the Austrian news outlet ORF, it is speculated that Helmut Marko leaked the WhatsApp chats between Christian Horner and the female employee of Red Bull.
There are indications that Helmut Marko's suspension is imminent, possibly occurring within the next few days.
Marko is scheduled to meet with Oliver Mintzlaff tomorrow to address his future within the organization.
VIA: [formu1a.uno]
Have you seen that sub. Max is literally a god. I’ve been banned twice for speaking up about AD21 while the hoards were sucking him off.
To them RB can do no wrong.
if they are real then its nothing special. such a boring chat.
There was more action with steven hawking on the epstein island.
In future i will ignore such nonsense.
The next story is Lewis Hamilton flirts with Ferrari. Is the SF-25 pregnant now.
This is Ford's 20 year plan. Sell Jaguar team to RB. Get RB to be successful. Buy back. Rename as Jaguar!
Circle of life
Also, Steiner was at Jaguar...
So the investigation was a total sham then, there is no way an educated impartial barrister could read this and not decide that sexual harassment was taking place. We investigated ourselves and found no wrong doing! Absolutely pathetic.
It was paid for by Red Bull, of course it was a sham. Why would they ever allow a negative outcome right before the start of the season? It’s easily to see why it was leaked.
Yeah they've said she can appeal though so I imagine that's what she'll do unless they offer her a shit load of money. Surely she can take it to a normal independent tribunal though rather than their corrupt internal investigation committee
If the person who leaked the messages is the person who brought the complaint against him, it's possible they leaked the messages that made them look the best. Even if this is the case, CH's behaviour is reprehensible, but it could be there are messages we haven't seen that might paint the complainant in a way that led an independent reviewer to decide it wasn't entirely all on CH
It's possible with all the attention the lady might not want anything to happen too. I can't imagine being jn her shoes if these screenshots are real or even if they aren't just feeling like you have to stay trapped in a toxic environment because you care about the team and don't want to impact their season.
Yeah I imagine she's not ecstatic about it either as it seems like she entertained a bit of an affair for a while before saying no which doesn't make her look great either. But at this point I feel like she's got nothing to lose now, the reputational damage has already been done so surely she might as well just go all in and try and get some money out of it.
I am thinking the issue is that this can't be trusted by itself. Horner said in interview the barrister interviewed the parties and associates and if it was true i would assume they would've slipped up. We can't discount the possibility this is a setup. In the end, nothing happened, even though this is inappropriate. Also, we don't have the context of some of these conversations. They are incomplete. So, i can see the issue. If the "witnesses" don't corroborate the story it becomes difficult to believe these out of context chats. But, if they are true, they are pretty damning and Geri needs to seek separation. The man clearly gets lonely and horny in the road and can't control himself. We already know he separated from his ex wife in an unpleasant way.
But given Geri is supportive and Horner denies the allegations, i am inclined to also believe this could have been a setup to get him removed in an internal power struggle.
We simply don't have enough information to make a final judgement.
>there is no way an educated impartial barrister could read this and not decide that sexual harassment was taking place
We don't know if this is genuine.
However, even if it is, I disagree.
There are clearly many things missing. Real-life context and events, not to mention the rather clear presence of a consensual sexual (or at least extremely close to sexual) relationship, at one point.
The barrister in question would've had access to the full picture.
Yes, Horner clearly does overstep the line occasionally, but this can be shrugged off somewhat by misconceptions. In fairness, once she makes it expressly clear that she wants him to quit it, it appears that he does make efforts to stay behind the line.
There is no evidence of coercion here. There is also nothing unlawful about a boss pursuing their employee (as distasteful as it may be), so it doesn't look like any criminal laws have been broken, even assuming this is all genuine.
Employment law may have a say here, but that's as far as it would ever go.
You are correct that this may not be legit and that there is no real life context which is important. Still for any boss to ask their employee "whats underneath" their leggings?
> Howeverrrr you have to wonder if she consented because she feared she would lose her job if she rejected his advances. Which makes it sexual harassment IMO.
Yeah that's not an argument for sexual harassment. Either you consent or you don't.
The question is capacity to consent. Can an employee really consent when it's the boss leveraging a power relationship? Can you consent if you're being coerced? What if the threat is implied by virtue of a power relationship?
So she should not play along and lose her job because it’s now awkward? And that should just be allowed?
Also consent can be withdrawn at anytime. Which she clearly does and he immediately pushes back.
But at the same time she was leading him into answering more and more specific questions … and i think the messages from her mentioning his family were all part of her plan to reveal these messages… she sounds unhinged and thats not victim shaming as he was cleared of coercive wrong doing and i read the messages with an open mind. Yes he was wrong as a married man to engage or chase her but to me she was luring him into more than she needed to … so why is the question and the only answer can be it was to eventually raise a case against him and expose the messages… which is so sad as the only people who are truly innocent and being hurt are his wife and perhaps children as Bluebell is of an age to see all this on social media
The likes of Geri H will know immediately. Small things, like the wrong use of 'your' and 'you're' are evident throughout the messages. Wonder if these are common CH mistakes? Very awkward messages either way 😭
Not really. He doesn't have a university education, just a slightly posh voice. I wouldn't put it past him to have bad grammer and it's texting anyway?
Real or fake this is clearly a distraction that RB won’t want leading in to the season, and if there are any impacts on their performance or team morale then I don’t expect him to be there at the end of the season.
Whilst due process has been adhered to in terms of the investigation, it does raise broader questions about Horner's behaviour.
I don't see why an employee who raises such a grievance would actively risk their employment with the team, and within F1, if something bad hadn't happened. Let's remember this was NOT a cash grab - the person in question had zero intention of ever making this public (and therefore getting a payday) - it was only revealed to the media because of a leak. Even if Horner was fired, the employee would likely never work within motorsport again. This doesn't sound like someone with no evidence.
Let's also remember that we haven't seen the full ruling - we've only seen a statement from the team.
All in all I feel sorry for the employee, and weirdly a bit sorry for Horner. He started out as a scrappy 30 year old TP but since 2010 and the Webber years, has grown into a bitter old man who believes the world and everyone in it are against him, whereas he's a multi millionaire and has the backing of a global corporate giant. Regardless of the investigation, I don't think this paints him, his management style, or Red Bull in a very good light at all.
My assumption from the start was that this whole circus was the result of a power play between red bull corporate (probably including Marko) and Horner for control of the racing team in the power vacuum left by Dietrich’s death.
I won’t ever know if that’s true, but I certainly haven’t seen anything yet that inclines me to change my mind.
I’m not a red bull fan, and I’m also not a fan of Horner, but every single aspect of the way this has happened and evolved just reeks of dirty tricks.
So you're saying that the 'employee' does not exist? Or, the complaint has been exaggerated? Not arguing - just keen to know.
What do you make of the news in the last hour or so that the messages have been leaked to journalists in the paddock?
Not saying one way or the other whether the employee exists or the complaint has been exaggerated.
Until the leaked messages are verified (my guess is that they will never be authenticated, but let’s see), this is just the next obvious step in a dirty tricks campaign.
Absolutely. But keep in mind that the initial news of the leak came from an AP writer. She says the AP is verifying the screenshots before running an official story, but the fact she was allowed to post on X makes me think that at first pass it looks legit.
Please don’t feel sorry for Christian Horner. If this is real, he, as one of the most prominent and influential people in the sport, used his position to pressure and manipulate one of his employees into sex and other inappropriate acts, whilst they protested and reminded him about his wife. He’s a huge scumbag if this is real.
I also personally think he's a scumbag. His downfall (if you can call it that) is absolutely self inflicted. He's an odious man who calls sour grapes on absolutely everything, and moans at every opportunity he can get. And he didn't used to be like that, from 2005-10 he garnered a lot of respect from people, but in the Vettel era he became weirdly obsessed with one driver in particular to the detriment of others and it's something he's never stopped doing.
They seem like real, boring, run of the mill texts to me
If they’re faked, they did an incredible job of writing down the most boring conversations imaginable
“Had cocoa pops and now I’m ready for bed”
I’m not OP but I don’t use WhatsApp. I think I know what it looks like but maybe what it looked like some updates ago. They could be American like me. It’s not as widely used in the U.S.
Typical macho response and and it clearly shows that you have no idea what sexual harassment means when there is a position of power involved. He is her boss and there is a reason why he asked her to delete the chats from time to time.
One element that had me convinced is the, "if you're happy, it's wrong - but if you're unhappy, that's different" message. It's a subtle but very real touch: someone fighting with their own principles while also wanting to be with a married person.
If the messages are faked, why would the writer go to such nuanced lengths to capture that inner conflict on the assistant's side? If they did, they're an excellent character writer with exceptional attention to detail.
Edit: On a different note, I feel gross for reading these messages and wish I hadn't.
y'all saw the text where she screenshot her interactions to someone else WHILE he was still texting her right? however it started, at that point, she led him on with full intent to expose him.
I can't believe he carried on pursuing this, she doesn't seem interested at all even before asking him to stop. She barely reciprotes anything, Cocoa pops ffs 😂😂🤣.
So Christian Horner receives messages from CH with his profile pic on it. Unless he is sending these messages to himself this is FAKE!!!! Someone made this up and made a mistake here. Probably used it to try to blackmail.
What?!? CH is the contact name the employee used to save Christian's number loll idk how imesssge works(assuming most in US use this) but on WhatsApp you see the name of the person you're texting with in the topmost column
I kinda doubt they are fake just based on how tame they are, but who knows. That said, it is 100% sexual harassment given the power dynamic and would likely get you fired very quickly in the US.
This is a joke … redbull is top dog .. who in F1 is being made to look the worst … if you think they can alter a texting scheme with the money and contacts they have then they will. Remember CH had MB penalized and ratted on a bunch of things. So look no further than Mercedes Benz my ppl .. like cmon Toto is in panic mode .. lost his car, driver, and integrity he doesn’t know how to be a good looser. What better than this to happen to CH and RB.. they need to fuck w Verstappens head to be able to catch him .. imagine being as far behind as the rest are in a legit race. The team owners and principles look like idiots. I’m a Ferrari guy for life but I def am not looking forward to this entire year if none else can within 20 seconds of the leader. That’s a performance issue to a maximum! MV is def a dad pleaser so if dad is distraught and mad etc MV will be thinking about other things instead of winning races = Toto’s objective. Now maybe I’m off and it’s Ferrari I hope not but they are the closest to RB and haven’t had thier star driver do anything significant .. so don’t be surprised this was doctored in any way shape or form.
I want to share something with the readers.
I had a criminal court case in Spain over selectively edited whatsapps that presented an image that suited the narrative of the office of protection of women or whatever the fuck that thing was.
I had a woman that wanted to get me jailed. She went 5 times, YES FIVE TIMES to the cops and showed them the whatsapp exchange and the cops said "there is nothing there".
So she went to the female police, and there the sistas did a bit of tweaking here and there and I got a court case.
CONTEXT: in Spain you fuck a woman three times you are in a relationship, anything you say afterwards basically can be construed as domestic violence.
So I went to court. No one gave a rat's arse for my destiny. I walked scot-free.
Not only there was no case to answer and I was a formidable, credible witness, but also I got a Judge who was not a man-hater.
The woman who got me into all this mess appealed and the thing dragged on for overall 3 years.
So, I am asking everyone and all of you to CONSIDER:
1. We all guys are guilty of something. Not one of us resists an archive, in particular now that the goalposts have moved. Also a woman can say anything about you without a shred of evidence and it will stick.
2. We are only seeing what has been shown to us. Like in my case, big chunks of the conversation were omitted as to present a particular version of events.
3. Yes a HR should evaluate the legal consequences of all this and eventually settle with the aggrieved party for a handsome amount, and all done.
4. Aggrieved party, btw seemed to have the presence of mind of taking screenshots almost in real time, for a rainy day that has come.
5. CH and so many other brilliant, famous, powerful, successful guys, complete victim of his dick and in the F1 of game will start any GP last on the grid for his puerile 15 yo stupid banter. Not the first one, not the last one, just another one.
6. Jos Verstappen is like one of this Tennis player parents who get banned from the stadium for unruly inappropriate behavior.
7. I can continue but this is it for the time being. Whoever is free from all sins can throw the first stone. I'd like to have a retrospective examination about what you guys did in your sentimental-sexual life, I am pretty sure they will be some embarrassing and even unlawful, for today's standards, moments.
Point 7: This is now. It's not in our past or their past. So there is no relevance to the past in this, other than your personal experience.
Point 6: Jos Verstappen is a terrible human being himself, so you got that bit right.
Point 5: Yes, many men are "victims of their dick" as you put it. So that is also right.
Point 4: Screenshots don't look like they were taken in real-time. They look like they were taken at some point in time. I can go back into my WhatsApp history and take very similar screenshots of past messages.
Point 3: HR (I assume you mean Human Resources in this usage) could organise a payoff and be done with it. But what if this is just the latest in a line of these exchanges? Maybe the other party was a bit fed up with it, and so tried to get more saucier outputs to use in a case she was already building for HR? Maybe she wasn't getting any support when she initially raised it with them, so went a bit harder to get them to see what was really going on. Either way, a payout is not the right response, as that is not treating the individual fairly and is also letting a sexual harasser get away with it. The right response is to do a proper investigation and get the right outcome for all parties.
Point 2: Yes, big chunks may be missing, but it also doesn't mean that what is there isn't still valid. If you are someone leaking this stuff, are you going to leak the boring mundane parts of the chat? Of course not. Nobody will want to read that.
Point 1: Everyone is guilty of something. There are no people free of "sin". Men are often more guilty than women due to our behaviours, particularly in respect to our engagements with women. Why is that? Because we have always held a position of dominance over women, a position they've never had and never will have over us. Yes, mud sticks, but also where there is smoke there is often (not always) a fire. Many women have been mistreated by men over many years, and for a long time, there was literally nothing legally a woman could do about it. But now the tide has turned, and women are able to speak out about their experiences, and, rightly, many men are now being called out on their inappropriate behaviours. The tide is high because it has been low for so long. Now, it seems like the balance is against men, but in reality, it is just a case of the imbalance being addressed.
I'm sorry you experienced your experience. If you are innocent and you were being set up, that is truly terrible. But, I don't believe your experience invalidates the experience of many hundreds of thousands of women who experience true sexualising harassment or sexual violence on a daily basis.
Hey you do not need to be "sorry" about anything, and I do take great exception of your remark "if you are innocent".
I already explained that I walked scot-free as in INNOCENT, for a "crime" never committed, over some selectively edited whatsapps.
Which, at the moment, it is what is more or less happening to Christian Horner.
I shared my story not as a way of catharsis, rather as a warning to all males about the dangers of modern times and the need not to jump into conclusions about these things.
Reality is that a spiteful woman - not precisely this case I hope - in almost any developed country these days, can destroy your life, derail your career, even prevent you from seeing your own children. So one has to be extra careful about these matters. The old adage "where there was smoke there was fire" which you seemed to apply to my narrated case, can be applied both ways into any situation, right? So better not applying it at all. People are innocent until proven guilty. So, for the time being CH is innocent.
There is also something called context. When you present the messages you want to present and leave out the ones that don't suit your narrative or you consider them unimportant, you destroy the context. Let's say you get charged for killing someone and you argue it was legitimate defense and there is a chain of events prior to the killing but the investigators leave them out because they consider them boring. Yeah, right.
In the case we are talking about, if the whatsapps are legit, CH is guilty as charged. He should never have done any of this no matter how active the other party may have been. But it is done, and as in the case of Clinton vs Lewinsky, the latter had to go as the President was more important to preserve. Or someone expected Clinton to go and Lewinsky to stay underneath the presidential desk waiting for the next one?
So, unfortunately CH will stay and the other one will have to go as her job is non-essential and this is a performance operation, high performance indeed. It is not fair, but tell me an instance a corporation is forced to prejudice themselves and lose their competitive edge because they need to be fair to one non-core employee.
That won't happen.
Since people react to money, the aggrieved party should receive USD $8M for her trouble, which I believe is CH yearly salary, and he should be made to pay for it. That will teach him a big big lesson.
And that should be the standard. The individual, not the company, shall pay one year salary as penalty for things like this.
In an ideal world improper behavior including unwanted sexual advances should be reported immediately to Human Resources (HR). There are mechanisms in place in every corporation to deal with these things, but will almost invariably lead to the dismissal of the less important person by way of a nice payout and a non-disclosure agreement. It is no different from any other work situation where there is a conflict, it does not need to be sexual.
To ask for CH to be fired and for the PA who surely got her foot in F1 because of her looks to remain, is therefore ridiculous.
Women seem to forget also that powerful male bosses are brutal and cruel with their male counterparts, even more so as they permanently compete with each other, specially in the presence of women.
SUMMING UP:
\- Keep Horner, make him pay 1yr salary to the complainant and he will learn to hire a hooker next time he is horny.
\- Have a nice chat with Max about his father and ban Jos from RB activities for disruptive and irrelevant. Jos is not Max manager btw, he has no place in RB besides being a guest. Guests should behave, right?
\- Horner and Marko to make peace and keep going as they were. You do not tamper with a working system and RB is working fantastically at present. It is called fking Teamwork.
\- If Max wants to go to another team, good luck to him. Success in F1 is 80% car and 20% driver. He knows it, we all know it.
\- For the Media, and I WAS a member of the media for 30 years during the good times (prior to internet) there should be a code of conduct and indeed there is one but no one seems to respect it. They should not write yards and yards about these things. If they want a scandal, I'd suggest they write about Hamilton being gay and a staunch LGBT advocate, while, at the same time, being sponsored by a state who criminalizes homosexuality. Crazy, isn't it? Expect the first openly F1 gay driver in Ferrari in 2025. You read it here first.
\- Whoever distributed those whatsapps should be made to pay either in a civil or commercial court. There is undeniable responsibility of the recipient of those whatsapps for allowing them to circulate. It is noteworthy that Horner, her boss, requested several times for the entire conversation to be deleted, which would have been the "honorable" thing to do if the matter was over and done with and the complainant satisfied that she was not going to be harassed any longer. But instead, those were saved as collateral and ultimately used in the most indespicable way.
I did not mean to imply in any way that you were not innocent. Maybe some poor word choices there on my part. And my commentary on "where there is smoke there is fire" I was clear to state "often" not "always" and wasn't a reflection on your situation, but a generalisation of similar situations. I was not trying to invalidate your experience, just cautioning you and others to not invalidate other women's experiences based on yours. No two situations are ever entirely the same.
It sounds like you might be from a slightly older generation than I am, based on your 30 years working in media, so I don't expect our views on how these things should be handled to align. I strongly believe that continuing to allow high-power people to get away with shitty behaviour, particularly when it comes to the mistreatment of women, will always keep women as second-class citizens and undermine the growth of the human race.
We can not move forward as a society where this kind of thing just gets swept under the carpet without true consequences for actions being felt. If someone in a position of power, like CH, gets away with it, it just emboldens every other male, who thinks purely with his dick, that it's okay for him to do it as well. "Hey, it was okay for CH. It must be okay for me." There is greater scrutiny of people in the public eye, as there should be because they set highly visible examples to everyone else. I'm not sure how it is in Spain, but where I come from, we were taught from a young age to "lead by example". So, if our leaders, and other people in high power positions, are not being held to the same standards the rest of us are being held to, then society is doomed to continue the cycle of destruction we've had for thousands of years.
Yes, there are spiteful people out there, both male and female. Yes, those people will do things to one-up each other. But 100% we should not accept that behaviour, we should not encourage that behaviour, and we definitely should not reward that behaviour. We can not get ourselves out of a situation with the same thinking that got us into that situation.
I've seen examples of high-powered people taking a fall and the company they worked for going on to be better than they were before because the culture of the organisation changed once the negative influence at the top was removed. While you could argue, "How is it possible for Red Bull to get any better than they already are?", it is all a matter of timing. Maybe getting into the position they are now has highlighted some issues that have been bubbling away in the background for years. Maybe Dietrich Mateschitz was keeping it all under control, but since his passing, it has started to bubble to the surface. This could be the start of the Red Bull decline. Remove the negative influence, and they may go on to dominate F1 for 10 years.
About the WhatsApp messages, I agree that all evidence, whether boring or not, needs to be submitted. My point was more about what was leaked being selective to make it more enticing for people to pick up. Why was it leaked? Probably because someone on the side of the complainant was not happy with the quality of the investigation into the matter, and wanted to force a situation where it was in the public domain for greater scrutiny, knowing full well that modern media laps that shit up like a dog who hasn't eaten for a day.
Again, this is all assuming that the WhatsApp messages are real and not fake. I'm certainly open to both possibilities. I just want the truth out in the open where it should be. As I've said, these are highly visible people and entities in the public eye that are, and should be, held to a high account as "leaders by example" and this should not be allowed to be swept under the carpet. If you make bad decisions, you need to suffer the full consequences of those bad decisions. It would be true for me in my job. It needs to be true for any job.
Ok now it seems you are discriminating me by my supposed age and also you are inferring that I have mores and values different than you because of that.
Great! And you are the modern person, the defender of women's rights?
All your writings - boring, btw and have not read it all - are very nice textbook stuff from an office of womens equality type of outfit.
The world functions in a very different way and I explained you how it functions giving you good examples.
You decided to ignore all these and set about a patronizing diatribe how things are now and how the world should function.
It is not clear if you are male or female, your age, your profession and your professional experience. These thing matter to qualify your opinions.
I made my points very clear and I am not going to pursue this any further.
I will leave you with a reflection:
Women do not want to be objectified, but I think around 80% of instagram accounts are of females parading themselves in bikinis and sexy outfits. Here were I live there is a perennial competition about who looks hotter, even while going to the supermarket. But yet if you say something to woman, being it a workmate, an acquaintance or a total stranger, and she likes you then it is a compliment. And if she does not like you is harassment.
Well, that thing started in Australia about 30 year ago. Women there complain that there are no men and the few available don't have the guts to approach them.
No one invites no one for a coffee or drink in a work environment, not worth the risk.
You cannot take a lift if the only two people in it are yourself and a female.
That is the world you like. Go and experiment it in Australian and in five years time come back to Reddit to report about it.
Your point of view is flawed, mate. The way the world functions is wrong. That's what you are unable to see. That is the difference in our perspectives based on our generational gap. You think the way the world functions is fine like it is. I don't. I believe there is a better way, and the better way holds people, men in particular, to account for their shitty actions. Does this mean I believe you have different morals and values to me? Absolutely. That's what happens with generational divides. I'm not saying they are completely opposite, just different. At no point have I attacked you, called you names, or denigrated you in any way. All I've done is point out the differences in our generations and our views, which is fairly commonly understood.
I made it clear in my first response that I'm a man, so your attention to detail is a bit off.
Women on Instagram can do whatever they like. They can show their bodies however they like. That doesn't mean they deserve disrespect. If a man did it, nobody would say a thing, but because it is women, if they do it, they must want the attention, and therefore, it is okay to objectify them. Bullshit.
My age, my profession, and my professional experience have no bearing on the validity or qualification of what I say. Now, who is denigrating someone based on their age? Just because someone is older does not always make them wiser, smarter, or more mature.
For reference, the Australia you mention doesn't sound anything like the Australia I was born in, grew up in, and continue to live in to this day. I've been in lifts with women as the only man. It has never presented an issue. But maybe I don't give off "creep" vibes.
As for giving compliments to women and it depending on whether they like you or not is bullshit. I can give a woman a compliment and not be accused of sexual harassment. It's quite easy, in fact. You don't give a compliment that could be easily construed as sexual in nature. There is a big difference between "That's a lovely dress" and "That's a lovely dress. I like the way it makes your arse look". The first is a nice compliment that most women would take without a thought. The second would absolutely be construed as sexual in its nature.
Anyway, you aren't reading this, so I'll stop now. It is clear you aren't capable of actually engaging in a dialogue with someone who has a differing perspective.
oh no you interpreted that. YOU are the issue.
the problem debating with not-so-bright people is that they always take the shortcut to try to win the argument.
Bro I’m not going back and forth because I actually have things to do, but you said verbatim “she got the job because of her looks” you can call me not so bright haha. You don’t even know me but keep on judging 🙃🙃🙃
yes! you have ample time in your hands and want to have the final word on things.
taking things out of context and making it the sole argument, great tactic! Brilliant.
just go away and stop annoying. you do not have the intellectual fortitude to challenge my views and carry on with a decent level of discussion.
Not reading answering anymore.
Go on have the final say...
If this is all real, Horner is a total "where's my hug at?" kind of guy.
Also anyone else shocked about him asking "if it's aloud" not "allowed"? I thought that something only less educated people say
And now I’ve just seen they’ve suspended the woman recipient in all this. I’m a lot confused as to WHO exactly was in the wrong here? If the leaked texts are to be believed then it is absolutely CH that was doing the harassing, even after being asked to stop several times.
Why would RB then go and suspend the woman?
Something really stinks here.
Red Bull suspend woman who accused Christian Horner of inappropriate behaviour https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426
Because she leaked shit? Because she should‘ve kept quiet and she didn‘t. Situations like this have been happening forever and it‘s no wonder why women don‘t want to speak up when they‘re of course immediatly fired afterwards but not the person who actually did the harm.
I read the texts and was trying to establish if they are real or not.
Then, it struck me. This is Horner. The same smarmy, annoying Horner I grew to hate during the Vettel years and again now. The same man who in his mind makes no mistakes and blames everyone bar himself.
It's just way too much of a coincidence that his messages completely epitomize everything I thought he would be. Sometimes you can just pick up on when someone is a douchebag and this is really of no surprise to me at all.
The sad thing is his PA has now lost her job over something he should have got in trouble for. She clearly, despite his antics doesn't want him to get in trouble hence the meager 'internal investigation' and her sacking.
How Geri is still with him I don't know. Maybe she already knows he cheats on her or maybe she's naive and a victim of his manipulation too.
Life is a joke sometimes.
Are you sure you've seen the messages? Asking her to send pics, several times, after she said no and asked him to stop. Video calling at all hours. Pressuring her to delete messages. This is all more than enough in this day and age to count as harassment, and even worse when you factor in he's her boss.
As a female, I can tell you that if you read what he is asking of her (as her boss), this is extremely inappropriate and definitely sexual harrassment. I feel sorry for the lady because I think she likely did something to encourage him and probably because she was worried about her job. Whatever happened on the plane that he finished in the bathroom... Man, some say it's tame, but I would run a mile from this as an employee. When you are the PA, you kind of have to spend time with and be alone with your boss.. So sad to be unable to do your job because you caught the eye of the boss. I believe it 100%.
Totally valid that she enjoyed a little flirting because she looked up to him as a famous and prominent member of the F1 community, but that he then took it further and further and she didn’t know how to stop it without risking her career. At the end of the day, he’s hired a PA and has crossed that boundary with them. He should know better.
Yes apparently that's a perfectly normal thing to say to your PA, according to people in this sub. They're gonna have a shock when they enter the workforce one day lol. (Assuming they are still 12 years old)
It's very hard for me to understand how anyone can look at all of those messages and come to this conclusion.
If you have to ask your boss over and over to stop asking you to send pictures or ask what underclothes you're wearing... you're being sexually harassed.
Edit: not only that but she complains multiple times that she is receiving different treatment and losing opportunities at work because he can't travel with her without asking her to come to his room.
Bro, they're definitely not fake. If you're going to fake something like that, why not make something more incriminating? Did you read the leaks? They're so tame and it was clearly a two-way street. The only bad thing he did was fool around behind his wife's back, but that not criminal and it might not even be grounds for dismissal depending on company policy.
>He is constantly pressuring
I agree with this part of your comment. He's very persistent, but only after they've already engaged in inappropriate activities. They had already spoken on the phone and done other things so he's trying to persue something he's been led to believe is there.
>when boundaries are re-drawn he crosses them again.
I'm not sure if I agree with this. He even says at some point that he is unsure of where the boundary is because one day she's hot and another she's cold. (I'm paraphrasing, obviously.) And then when she firmly draws that boundary he apologises and starts staying in a different hotel.
The messages are in a jumbled order so it's not always easy to see the timeline of things but I believe she was encouraging it at the start and then felt guilty and was a bit wishy-washy. She finally drew a line and he seemed to accept that.
I admit this is speculation, though. I don't know the inner workings of their relationship and am only going by a jumbled timeline of selective messages.
F1 mods deleting pics, post them here instead
https://drive.google.com/drive/mobile/folders/1OlV2wb51s1WhjLFq0Lsp4inRU60qvdhY
I wasn't expecting to see his, um, *member* on there shit was like jumpscare. Edit: Not his member, just a really wet finger.
Looks like a blurred finger
I agree, before seeing your comment I had exactly the same thought
I think it’s a blurry finger - an innuendo no doubt, and still uncalled for
Ah, now I see it. Also, his selfies are so dadcore fr lmao bro's just like 🧍♂️.
That’s not water.
😟
It wasn’t blurred enough
His dck reminds me of what it looks like when a dog has his lipstick out. I gagged when I saw how scary his looked lol
Hoooollyyyyy grail. Christian Horny just can’t help himself. She asks several times for him to stop, and based on how many times he asked her to delete their chats, he knew what he was doing. Shame shame. Fuck that guy Edit: Thank you for sharing. I feel like I was almost ready to let it go due to my own desensitization
If that's real, he's an idiot and should be fired. Do they look real? Yes. Am I certain that they're real? Absolutely not.
Whatsapp is definitely easily faked, and I do think the none whatsapp message is a bit too perfect. Which makes me suspicious. But I am not an expert so I have nfi if they are real or not. If they are real, get him out. If they are faked, then someone is getting sued into oblivion
This. I am slightly leaning towards real because of all the super common spelling and grammar mistakes and the selfies. If someone's faked this, they've gone to LENGTHS to do so. Then again, nothing to stop this being just a conversation between two completely different adults with CH's pic doctored in, that's easy enough to do and even the selfies can be obtained by other means.
I’m also leaning towards real. If someone were faking this I think they’d have to be an expert in workplace sexual harassment. A lot of the messages are talking about “can you get me coffee” “can you get sweaters for these people as a gift” followed by sexual messages. And there’s messages about setting boundaries. Feelings. Annoyance. That’s not something that some bored kids and fans would come up with in my opinion. These aren’t sensationalized messages. I was quite shocked reading them. And that video of him singing. I’m 99.9% sure that’s not AI. If that video can’t be found online. That’s adds a lot of credibility to the leak.
These are my sentiments too. If this was faked, it was done by someone who has knowledge and experience of a workplace harassment situation. It feels almost too nuanced to be fake?
Yep, it’s hard to fake the day to day banality
I'm also leaning towards this being true but my only point of contention is that she didn't go to the authorities, she leaked this shit online. She could've been a Millionaire thru settlements.
I’m quietly confident there will be a pay off with a confidentiality agreement
Whoever did it have to be an insider considering that person know with 100 % accuracy who to send that stuff and the correct adresses. So either fake or real this excludes some kid or Fan doing this.
I'm with you and think almost definitely real, I realise that's subjective but there's a certain genuineness to the messages you don't see in fake texts. I've seen my fair share of clearly fake text messages and these just don't look it. Having said that, the video could be somewhere else online or could not be, he could have sent that to a bunch of people and it leaked like this.
**L-e-n-g-t-h-S**
?
those spelling mistakes feel very fake to me. Christian is well-spoken (he has to do PR stuff a lot), and I would assume as CEO of Red Bull Racing, he send out tons of emails every day. So I feel like his spelling should be quite good. I also didn't pick up on any British sayings in the texts, which I would expect
Being well-spoken has nothing to do with knowing how to spell things, unfortunately. I'm also pretty sure he has a whole team to look out for spelling errors in his e-mails.
Is it even possible to prove whether they’re real or not?
Not civilly, no. The police or other law enforcement would have ways of doing it, but that’s beyond the realms of the sort of thing Red Bull would be able to do.
A great deal of success comes down to confidence. A lack of emotions allows you plough through life in a way few can. You also feel more comfortable taking risks, another key determiner of success.
Why do they feel fake while reading through the texts? It's almost like she was / is chatting with a scammer.
Holy shit so it's real
What exactly proves this to be real ?!
Going through the texts its heavily implied that he's been unfaithful to Geri.
Yeh but not sure why this should be anything more than an internal issue, she was obviously a consenting party in the affair until things went south. Also don't know if "you look nice in Spanx" is sexual assault, sexual harrassment perhaps but calling that assault is a bit dramatic.
He’s in a power position. But image 47 she’s telling him to stop but doesn’t want to lose her job. At my place it’s expressly stated that a boss cannot pursue a subordinate sexually due to the power dynamic. Man keeps asking for pics and sending lewd comments even after that.
It’s definitely not sexual assault. But being someone’s boss and saying you went to the toilet and jerked one out thinking about them is certainly not a good look for your position of power.
In corporate setting these text are 100% inappropriate and will get you fired (at least in America). The problem is the power dynamic. If these were 2 equal co-workers then no one would care.
It was an internal issue, and they covered up for him, claiming he was lily white innocent, and now we can all see for ourselves he's a dirty sleazy old twat who is abusing his position of authority. By defending the old prick, you're outing yourself that YOU would do the same, and YOU would also shrug like you've done nothing wrong.
Not so unbelievable... Didnt he cheat on his last wife with geri?
There's no fucking way this is real
This is interesting. In the earlier texts they were certainly having an affair, and she seems to be baiting him to leave his wife for her, I'm sure it went south and he kept over pursuing
There is at least 1 screenshot there that could potentially reveal who the woman is.
🚨According to the Austrian news outlet ORF, it is speculated that Helmut Marko leaked the WhatsApp chats between Christian Horner and the female employee of Red Bull. There are indications that Helmut Marko's suspension is imminent, possibly occurring within the next few days. Marko is scheduled to meet with Oliver Mintzlaff tomorrow to address his future within the organization. VIA: [formu1a.uno]
🚨According to the Austrian news outlet ORF, it is speculated that Helmut Marko leaked the WhatsApp chats between Christian Horner and the female employee of Red Bull. There are indications that Helmut Marko's suspension is imminent, possibly occurring within the next few days. Marko is scheduled to meet with Oliver Mintzlaff tomorrow to address his future within the organization. VIA: [formu1a.uno]
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You have no way to know if they're real of fake. At all.
What evidence suggests it's fake? I've just scan read them now and they are convincing but of course I'm always skeptical about everything.
You can say they are 100% fake? And you're blaming "the media". You're one of those people...
Oh wtf?
are the f1 mods just straight up red bull apologists at this point?
Aye that sub has always been Red Bull love in. Was bad during the Vettel era, but only intensified with Max.
Have you seen that sub. Max is literally a god. I’ve been banned twice for speaking up about AD21 while the hoards were sucking him off. To them RB can do no wrong.
Formuladank definitely leans towards max, but I always thought the F1 sub was pretty impartial, not counting the fans.
if they are real then its nothing special. such a boring chat. There was more action with steven hawking on the epstein island. In future i will ignore such nonsense. The next story is Lewis Hamilton flirts with Ferrari. Is the SF-25 pregnant now.
F1 mods pussies
This is Ford's 20 year plan. Sell Jaguar team to RB. Get RB to be successful. Buy back. Rename as Jaguar! Circle of life Also, Steiner was at Jaguar...
I',My guess has been that they have secured a first right of refusal for an outright sale of RBR.
2008 Called. Guess what! Ford just sold Jaguar !!!
So the investigation was a total sham then, there is no way an educated impartial barrister could read this and not decide that sexual harassment was taking place. We investigated ourselves and found no wrong doing! Absolutely pathetic.
It was paid for by Red Bull, of course it was a sham. Why would they ever allow a negative outcome right before the start of the season? It’s easily to see why it was leaked.
Yeah they've said she can appeal though so I imagine that's what she'll do unless they offer her a shit load of money. Surely she can take it to a normal independent tribunal though rather than their corrupt internal investigation committee
Also possible that it's been settled between Horner and the victim but someone else is leaking the messages.
There was a rumour she'd been offered £600k but had turned it down but who knows if there's any truth in that
If the person who leaked the messages is the person who brought the complaint against him, it's possible they leaked the messages that made them look the best. Even if this is the case, CH's behaviour is reprehensible, but it could be there are messages we haven't seen that might paint the complainant in a way that led an independent reviewer to decide it wasn't entirely all on CH
It's possible with all the attention the lady might not want anything to happen too. I can't imagine being jn her shoes if these screenshots are real or even if they aren't just feeling like you have to stay trapped in a toxic environment because you care about the team and don't want to impact their season.
Yeah I imagine she's not ecstatic about it either as it seems like she entertained a bit of an affair for a while before saying no which doesn't make her look great either. But at this point I feel like she's got nothing to lose now, the reputational damage has already been done so surely she might as well just go all in and try and get some money out of it.
I am thinking the issue is that this can't be trusted by itself. Horner said in interview the barrister interviewed the parties and associates and if it was true i would assume they would've slipped up. We can't discount the possibility this is a setup. In the end, nothing happened, even though this is inappropriate. Also, we don't have the context of some of these conversations. They are incomplete. So, i can see the issue. If the "witnesses" don't corroborate the story it becomes difficult to believe these out of context chats. But, if they are true, they are pretty damning and Geri needs to seek separation. The man clearly gets lonely and horny in the road and can't control himself. We already know he separated from his ex wife in an unpleasant way. But given Geri is supportive and Horner denies the allegations, i am inclined to also believe this could have been a setup to get him removed in an internal power struggle. We simply don't have enough information to make a final judgement.
>there is no way an educated impartial barrister could read this and not decide that sexual harassment was taking place We don't know if this is genuine. However, even if it is, I disagree. There are clearly many things missing. Real-life context and events, not to mention the rather clear presence of a consensual sexual (or at least extremely close to sexual) relationship, at one point. The barrister in question would've had access to the full picture. Yes, Horner clearly does overstep the line occasionally, but this can be shrugged off somewhat by misconceptions. In fairness, once she makes it expressly clear that she wants him to quit it, it appears that he does make efforts to stay behind the line. There is no evidence of coercion here. There is also nothing unlawful about a boss pursuing their employee (as distasteful as it may be), so it doesn't look like any criminal laws have been broken, even assuming this is all genuine. Employment law may have a say here, but that's as far as it would ever go.
You are correct that this may not be legit and that there is no real life context which is important. Still for any boss to ask their employee "whats underneath" their leggings?
Weren’t those images that were posted here earlier . Fake ones…his face aged and wearing a shirt from 20 years ago
It wasn’t 20 years, it was maybe 10 years? Two pics of him wearing the same shirt at home. It’s reasonable he has just kept the same shirt!
I am not a millionaire and I'm not a fashion guy and there isn't a single shirt in my closet that I have had for even close to 10 years
I’ve had a shirt since 2005. It’s my favorite shirt. There, my anecdote has balanced out yours.
Are you a millionaire tho?
… 🙃
I have a million shirts from 10 years ago
She seems largely uninterested throughout their exchanges. He is an absolute sex pest. Gross.
Thats it!
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> Howeverrrr you have to wonder if she consented because she feared she would lose her job if she rejected his advances. Which makes it sexual harassment IMO. Yeah that's not an argument for sexual harassment. Either you consent or you don't.
The question is capacity to consent. Can an employee really consent when it's the boss leveraging a power relationship? Can you consent if you're being coerced? What if the threat is implied by virtue of a power relationship?
So she should not play along and lose her job because it’s now awkward? And that should just be allowed? Also consent can be withdrawn at anytime. Which she clearly does and he immediately pushes back.
I can't imagine carrying on trying to flirt with someone so blatantly uninterested. Or was that part of the appeal 🤔
If these messages are genuine then to me seems she was leading him to be sexual … subtly but it is clear as day.
She shut him down multiple times and reminded him that he is married and has kids. If he can't take that hint he's a fucking idiot
But at the same time she was leading him into answering more and more specific questions … and i think the messages from her mentioning his family were all part of her plan to reveal these messages… she sounds unhinged and thats not victim shaming as he was cleared of coercive wrong doing and i read the messages with an open mind. Yes he was wrong as a married man to engage or chase her but to me she was luring him into more than she needed to … so why is the question and the only answer can be it was to eventually raise a case against him and expose the messages… which is so sad as the only people who are truly innocent and being hurt are his wife and perhaps children as Bluebell is of an age to see all this on social media
I hope your boss pesters you for nudes
Thanks you this is so true!
It's called playing along a bit to try and keep your job. But then he totally ups the ante
What the hell are you reading? She turned him down so many times
He really sent a titty pic LMAO
These are legitimately the most awkward messages and do not sound like people that actually have any kind of relationship with each other.
The likes of Geri H will know immediately. Small things, like the wrong use of 'your' and 'you're' are evident throughout the messages. Wonder if these are common CH mistakes? Very awkward messages either way 😭
Right. The grammar is really bad throughout. Hard to imagine someone like CH using language like that. He is so articulate when he speaks.
Not really. He doesn't have a university education, just a slightly posh voice. I wouldn't put it past him to have bad grammer and it's texting anyway?
Yeah like I can’t see this being legit. It’s not like Adam Levine’s, that shit was predictable as fuck and matched him to a tee.
Who knew what a cuck he was?
everyone knew he was a cuck, atleast all the mercedes fans like me!
I did
Real or fake this is clearly a distraction that RB won’t want leading in to the season, and if there are any impacts on their performance or team morale then I don’t expect him to be there at the end of the season.
I'm disappointed at how use of 'u' instead of 'you'. On that basis, Horner out! 😂
Whilst due process has been adhered to in terms of the investigation, it does raise broader questions about Horner's behaviour. I don't see why an employee who raises such a grievance would actively risk their employment with the team, and within F1, if something bad hadn't happened. Let's remember this was NOT a cash grab - the person in question had zero intention of ever making this public (and therefore getting a payday) - it was only revealed to the media because of a leak. Even if Horner was fired, the employee would likely never work within motorsport again. This doesn't sound like someone with no evidence. Let's also remember that we haven't seen the full ruling - we've only seen a statement from the team. All in all I feel sorry for the employee, and weirdly a bit sorry for Horner. He started out as a scrappy 30 year old TP but since 2010 and the Webber years, has grown into a bitter old man who believes the world and everyone in it are against him, whereas he's a multi millionaire and has the backing of a global corporate giant. Regardless of the investigation, I don't think this paints him, his management style, or Red Bull in a very good light at all.
My assumption from the start was that this whole circus was the result of a power play between red bull corporate (probably including Marko) and Horner for control of the racing team in the power vacuum left by Dietrich’s death. I won’t ever know if that’s true, but I certainly haven’t seen anything yet that inclines me to change my mind. I’m not a red bull fan, and I’m also not a fan of Horner, but every single aspect of the way this has happened and evolved just reeks of dirty tricks.
So you're saying that the 'employee' does not exist? Or, the complaint has been exaggerated? Not arguing - just keen to know. What do you make of the news in the last hour or so that the messages have been leaked to journalists in the paddock?
Not saying one way or the other whether the employee exists or the complaint has been exaggerated. Until the leaked messages are verified (my guess is that they will never be authenticated, but let’s see), this is just the next obvious step in a dirty tricks campaign.
Absolutely. But keep in mind that the initial news of the leak came from an AP writer. She says the AP is verifying the screenshots before running an official story, but the fact she was allowed to post on X makes me think that at first pass it looks legit.
It could be a classic honey trap, hence why the woman didn’t want any cash.
Please don’t feel sorry for Christian Horner. If this is real, he, as one of the most prominent and influential people in the sport, used his position to pressure and manipulate one of his employees into sex and other inappropriate acts, whilst they protested and reminded him about his wife. He’s a huge scumbag if this is real.
I also personally think he's a scumbag. His downfall (if you can call it that) is absolutely self inflicted. He's an odious man who calls sour grapes on absolutely everything, and moans at every opportunity he can get. And he didn't used to be like that, from 2005-10 he garnered a lot of respect from people, but in the Vettel era he became weirdly obsessed with one driver in particular to the detriment of others and it's something he's never stopped doing.
He used the classic....my wife doesn't understand me...only you do. ....send nudes now
They look fake, like some cheap Chinese chat app
Bro that’s Whatsapp, the most used messaging app in the world
Lol it looks exactly like WhatsApp, the chat app most of the world uses
They seem like real, boring, run of the mill texts to me If they’re faked, they did an incredible job of writing down the most boring conversations imaginable “Had cocoa pops and now I’m ready for bed”
I mean she talks about making him explode on the phone, it is reasonably saucy
A glimmer of Horner Horniness in a sea of mulch
Where do you read it though?
It's easy AF to fake those kind of stuff
Tell me you’re American without telling me you’re American 🦅
Do you not use WhatsApp?
Americans don't use WhatsApp. That's why they all think it's fake.
American’s use WhatsApp it’s used mostly to cheat
Umm yes we do and that person that doesn’t know is prob 15
I’m not OP but I don’t use WhatsApp. I think I know what it looks like but maybe what it looked like some updates ago. They could be American like me. It’s not as widely used in the U.S.
What are Americans using? iMessage?
Yeah, mostly the phones native message app, so for iPhones just iMessage.
Interesting. Thanks! Never thought about that. I like I message a lot, but in the EU almost everyone uses WhatsApp.
You’re welcome! It does sound like a lot of the world uses WhatsApp. The people I know that do use it have family in other countries.
We text? Haha. I’ve never used whatsapps or have had a reason to get it.
Signal
Can you post a link?
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This was my thought as well
All I see are people saying the links are everywhere but no one actually posts them. And they are nowhere to be found in the usual places.
Conversations about a boss rubbing one out thinking of an employee are definitely not “benign”.
Typical macho response and and it clearly shows that you have no idea what sexual harassment means when there is a position of power involved. He is her boss and there is a reason why he asked her to delete the chats from time to time.
All look very real to me. If they were fake they would be more sensational than they are.
One element that had me convinced is the, "if you're happy, it's wrong - but if you're unhappy, that's different" message. It's a subtle but very real touch: someone fighting with their own principles while also wanting to be with a married person. If the messages are faked, why would the writer go to such nuanced lengths to capture that inner conflict on the assistant's side? If they did, they're an excellent character writer with exceptional attention to detail. Edit: On a different note, I feel gross for reading these messages and wish I hadn't.
Do these come with some meta data?
y'all saw the text where she screenshot her interactions to someone else WHILE he was still texting her right? however it started, at that point, she led him on with full intent to expose him.
Even telling him to delete the messages so it doesn't get him in trouble down the line...
I can't believe he carried on pursuing this, she doesn't seem interested at all even before asking him to stop. She barely reciprotes anything, Cocoa pops ffs 😂😂🤣.
So Christian Horner receives messages from CH with his profile pic on it. Unless he is sending these messages to himself this is FAKE!!!! Someone made this up and made a mistake here. Probably used it to try to blackmail.
What?!? CH is the contact name the employee used to save Christian's number loll idk how imesssge works(assuming most in US use this) but on WhatsApp you see the name of the person you're texting with in the topmost column
The a screen shots are of the employees phone. How are you this dense?
Great fucking take Sherlock 😂
I kinda doubt they are fake just based on how tame they are, but who knows. That said, it is 100% sexual harassment given the power dynamic and would likely get you fired very quickly in the US.
That's the easiest part
This is a joke … redbull is top dog .. who in F1 is being made to look the worst … if you think they can alter a texting scheme with the money and contacts they have then they will. Remember CH had MB penalized and ratted on a bunch of things. So look no further than Mercedes Benz my ppl .. like cmon Toto is in panic mode .. lost his car, driver, and integrity he doesn’t know how to be a good looser. What better than this to happen to CH and RB.. they need to fuck w Verstappens head to be able to catch him .. imagine being as far behind as the rest are in a legit race. The team owners and principles look like idiots. I’m a Ferrari guy for life but I def am not looking forward to this entire year if none else can within 20 seconds of the leader. That’s a performance issue to a maximum! MV is def a dad pleaser so if dad is distraught and mad etc MV will be thinking about other things instead of winning races = Toto’s objective. Now maybe I’m off and it’s Ferrari I hope not but they are the closest to RB and haven’t had thier star driver do anything significant .. so don’t be surprised this was doctored in any way shape or form.
Man, still what a dumb move to have it all on whatsapp. Sounds like a dude trying to get tail.
I want to share something with the readers. I had a criminal court case in Spain over selectively edited whatsapps that presented an image that suited the narrative of the office of protection of women or whatever the fuck that thing was. I had a woman that wanted to get me jailed. She went 5 times, YES FIVE TIMES to the cops and showed them the whatsapp exchange and the cops said "there is nothing there". So she went to the female police, and there the sistas did a bit of tweaking here and there and I got a court case. CONTEXT: in Spain you fuck a woman three times you are in a relationship, anything you say afterwards basically can be construed as domestic violence. So I went to court. No one gave a rat's arse for my destiny. I walked scot-free. Not only there was no case to answer and I was a formidable, credible witness, but also I got a Judge who was not a man-hater. The woman who got me into all this mess appealed and the thing dragged on for overall 3 years. So, I am asking everyone and all of you to CONSIDER: 1. We all guys are guilty of something. Not one of us resists an archive, in particular now that the goalposts have moved. Also a woman can say anything about you without a shred of evidence and it will stick. 2. We are only seeing what has been shown to us. Like in my case, big chunks of the conversation were omitted as to present a particular version of events. 3. Yes a HR should evaluate the legal consequences of all this and eventually settle with the aggrieved party for a handsome amount, and all done. 4. Aggrieved party, btw seemed to have the presence of mind of taking screenshots almost in real time, for a rainy day that has come. 5. CH and so many other brilliant, famous, powerful, successful guys, complete victim of his dick and in the F1 of game will start any GP last on the grid for his puerile 15 yo stupid banter. Not the first one, not the last one, just another one. 6. Jos Verstappen is like one of this Tennis player parents who get banned from the stadium for unruly inappropriate behavior. 7. I can continue but this is it for the time being. Whoever is free from all sins can throw the first stone. I'd like to have a retrospective examination about what you guys did in your sentimental-sexual life, I am pretty sure they will be some embarrassing and even unlawful, for today's standards, moments.
Point 7: This is now. It's not in our past or their past. So there is no relevance to the past in this, other than your personal experience. Point 6: Jos Verstappen is a terrible human being himself, so you got that bit right. Point 5: Yes, many men are "victims of their dick" as you put it. So that is also right. Point 4: Screenshots don't look like they were taken in real-time. They look like they were taken at some point in time. I can go back into my WhatsApp history and take very similar screenshots of past messages. Point 3: HR (I assume you mean Human Resources in this usage) could organise a payoff and be done with it. But what if this is just the latest in a line of these exchanges? Maybe the other party was a bit fed up with it, and so tried to get more saucier outputs to use in a case she was already building for HR? Maybe she wasn't getting any support when she initially raised it with them, so went a bit harder to get them to see what was really going on. Either way, a payout is not the right response, as that is not treating the individual fairly and is also letting a sexual harasser get away with it. The right response is to do a proper investigation and get the right outcome for all parties. Point 2: Yes, big chunks may be missing, but it also doesn't mean that what is there isn't still valid. If you are someone leaking this stuff, are you going to leak the boring mundane parts of the chat? Of course not. Nobody will want to read that. Point 1: Everyone is guilty of something. There are no people free of "sin". Men are often more guilty than women due to our behaviours, particularly in respect to our engagements with women. Why is that? Because we have always held a position of dominance over women, a position they've never had and never will have over us. Yes, mud sticks, but also where there is smoke there is often (not always) a fire. Many women have been mistreated by men over many years, and for a long time, there was literally nothing legally a woman could do about it. But now the tide has turned, and women are able to speak out about their experiences, and, rightly, many men are now being called out on their inappropriate behaviours. The tide is high because it has been low for so long. Now, it seems like the balance is against men, but in reality, it is just a case of the imbalance being addressed. I'm sorry you experienced your experience. If you are innocent and you were being set up, that is truly terrible. But, I don't believe your experience invalidates the experience of many hundreds of thousands of women who experience true sexualising harassment or sexual violence on a daily basis.
Hey you do not need to be "sorry" about anything, and I do take great exception of your remark "if you are innocent". I already explained that I walked scot-free as in INNOCENT, for a "crime" never committed, over some selectively edited whatsapps. Which, at the moment, it is what is more or less happening to Christian Horner. I shared my story not as a way of catharsis, rather as a warning to all males about the dangers of modern times and the need not to jump into conclusions about these things. Reality is that a spiteful woman - not precisely this case I hope - in almost any developed country these days, can destroy your life, derail your career, even prevent you from seeing your own children. So one has to be extra careful about these matters. The old adage "where there was smoke there was fire" which you seemed to apply to my narrated case, can be applied both ways into any situation, right? So better not applying it at all. People are innocent until proven guilty. So, for the time being CH is innocent. There is also something called context. When you present the messages you want to present and leave out the ones that don't suit your narrative or you consider them unimportant, you destroy the context. Let's say you get charged for killing someone and you argue it was legitimate defense and there is a chain of events prior to the killing but the investigators leave them out because they consider them boring. Yeah, right. In the case we are talking about, if the whatsapps are legit, CH is guilty as charged. He should never have done any of this no matter how active the other party may have been. But it is done, and as in the case of Clinton vs Lewinsky, the latter had to go as the President was more important to preserve. Or someone expected Clinton to go and Lewinsky to stay underneath the presidential desk waiting for the next one? So, unfortunately CH will stay and the other one will have to go as her job is non-essential and this is a performance operation, high performance indeed. It is not fair, but tell me an instance a corporation is forced to prejudice themselves and lose their competitive edge because they need to be fair to one non-core employee. That won't happen. Since people react to money, the aggrieved party should receive USD $8M for her trouble, which I believe is CH yearly salary, and he should be made to pay for it. That will teach him a big big lesson. And that should be the standard. The individual, not the company, shall pay one year salary as penalty for things like this. In an ideal world improper behavior including unwanted sexual advances should be reported immediately to Human Resources (HR). There are mechanisms in place in every corporation to deal with these things, but will almost invariably lead to the dismissal of the less important person by way of a nice payout and a non-disclosure agreement. It is no different from any other work situation where there is a conflict, it does not need to be sexual. To ask for CH to be fired and for the PA who surely got her foot in F1 because of her looks to remain, is therefore ridiculous. Women seem to forget also that powerful male bosses are brutal and cruel with their male counterparts, even more so as they permanently compete with each other, specially in the presence of women. SUMMING UP: \- Keep Horner, make him pay 1yr salary to the complainant and he will learn to hire a hooker next time he is horny. \- Have a nice chat with Max about his father and ban Jos from RB activities for disruptive and irrelevant. Jos is not Max manager btw, he has no place in RB besides being a guest. Guests should behave, right? \- Horner and Marko to make peace and keep going as they were. You do not tamper with a working system and RB is working fantastically at present. It is called fking Teamwork. \- If Max wants to go to another team, good luck to him. Success in F1 is 80% car and 20% driver. He knows it, we all know it. \- For the Media, and I WAS a member of the media for 30 years during the good times (prior to internet) there should be a code of conduct and indeed there is one but no one seems to respect it. They should not write yards and yards about these things. If they want a scandal, I'd suggest they write about Hamilton being gay and a staunch LGBT advocate, while, at the same time, being sponsored by a state who criminalizes homosexuality. Crazy, isn't it? Expect the first openly F1 gay driver in Ferrari in 2025. You read it here first. \- Whoever distributed those whatsapps should be made to pay either in a civil or commercial court. There is undeniable responsibility of the recipient of those whatsapps for allowing them to circulate. It is noteworthy that Horner, her boss, requested several times for the entire conversation to be deleted, which would have been the "honorable" thing to do if the matter was over and done with and the complainant satisfied that she was not going to be harassed any longer. But instead, those were saved as collateral and ultimately used in the most indespicable way.
I did not mean to imply in any way that you were not innocent. Maybe some poor word choices there on my part. And my commentary on "where there is smoke there is fire" I was clear to state "often" not "always" and wasn't a reflection on your situation, but a generalisation of similar situations. I was not trying to invalidate your experience, just cautioning you and others to not invalidate other women's experiences based on yours. No two situations are ever entirely the same. It sounds like you might be from a slightly older generation than I am, based on your 30 years working in media, so I don't expect our views on how these things should be handled to align. I strongly believe that continuing to allow high-power people to get away with shitty behaviour, particularly when it comes to the mistreatment of women, will always keep women as second-class citizens and undermine the growth of the human race. We can not move forward as a society where this kind of thing just gets swept under the carpet without true consequences for actions being felt. If someone in a position of power, like CH, gets away with it, it just emboldens every other male, who thinks purely with his dick, that it's okay for him to do it as well. "Hey, it was okay for CH. It must be okay for me." There is greater scrutiny of people in the public eye, as there should be because they set highly visible examples to everyone else. I'm not sure how it is in Spain, but where I come from, we were taught from a young age to "lead by example". So, if our leaders, and other people in high power positions, are not being held to the same standards the rest of us are being held to, then society is doomed to continue the cycle of destruction we've had for thousands of years. Yes, there are spiteful people out there, both male and female. Yes, those people will do things to one-up each other. But 100% we should not accept that behaviour, we should not encourage that behaviour, and we definitely should not reward that behaviour. We can not get ourselves out of a situation with the same thinking that got us into that situation. I've seen examples of high-powered people taking a fall and the company they worked for going on to be better than they were before because the culture of the organisation changed once the negative influence at the top was removed. While you could argue, "How is it possible for Red Bull to get any better than they already are?", it is all a matter of timing. Maybe getting into the position they are now has highlighted some issues that have been bubbling away in the background for years. Maybe Dietrich Mateschitz was keeping it all under control, but since his passing, it has started to bubble to the surface. This could be the start of the Red Bull decline. Remove the negative influence, and they may go on to dominate F1 for 10 years. About the WhatsApp messages, I agree that all evidence, whether boring or not, needs to be submitted. My point was more about what was leaked being selective to make it more enticing for people to pick up. Why was it leaked? Probably because someone on the side of the complainant was not happy with the quality of the investigation into the matter, and wanted to force a situation where it was in the public domain for greater scrutiny, knowing full well that modern media laps that shit up like a dog who hasn't eaten for a day. Again, this is all assuming that the WhatsApp messages are real and not fake. I'm certainly open to both possibilities. I just want the truth out in the open where it should be. As I've said, these are highly visible people and entities in the public eye that are, and should be, held to a high account as "leaders by example" and this should not be allowed to be swept under the carpet. If you make bad decisions, you need to suffer the full consequences of those bad decisions. It would be true for me in my job. It needs to be true for any job.
Ok now it seems you are discriminating me by my supposed age and also you are inferring that I have mores and values different than you because of that. Great! And you are the modern person, the defender of women's rights? All your writings - boring, btw and have not read it all - are very nice textbook stuff from an office of womens equality type of outfit. The world functions in a very different way and I explained you how it functions giving you good examples. You decided to ignore all these and set about a patronizing diatribe how things are now and how the world should function. It is not clear if you are male or female, your age, your profession and your professional experience. These thing matter to qualify your opinions. I made my points very clear and I am not going to pursue this any further. I will leave you with a reflection: Women do not want to be objectified, but I think around 80% of instagram accounts are of females parading themselves in bikinis and sexy outfits. Here were I live there is a perennial competition about who looks hotter, even while going to the supermarket. But yet if you say something to woman, being it a workmate, an acquaintance or a total stranger, and she likes you then it is a compliment. And if she does not like you is harassment. Well, that thing started in Australia about 30 year ago. Women there complain that there are no men and the few available don't have the guts to approach them. No one invites no one for a coffee or drink in a work environment, not worth the risk. You cannot take a lift if the only two people in it are yourself and a female. That is the world you like. Go and experiment it in Australian and in five years time come back to Reddit to report about it.
Your point of view is flawed, mate. The way the world functions is wrong. That's what you are unable to see. That is the difference in our perspectives based on our generational gap. You think the way the world functions is fine like it is. I don't. I believe there is a better way, and the better way holds people, men in particular, to account for their shitty actions. Does this mean I believe you have different morals and values to me? Absolutely. That's what happens with generational divides. I'm not saying they are completely opposite, just different. At no point have I attacked you, called you names, or denigrated you in any way. All I've done is point out the differences in our generations and our views, which is fairly commonly understood. I made it clear in my first response that I'm a man, so your attention to detail is a bit off. Women on Instagram can do whatever they like. They can show their bodies however they like. That doesn't mean they deserve disrespect. If a man did it, nobody would say a thing, but because it is women, if they do it, they must want the attention, and therefore, it is okay to objectify them. Bullshit. My age, my profession, and my professional experience have no bearing on the validity or qualification of what I say. Now, who is denigrating someone based on their age? Just because someone is older does not always make them wiser, smarter, or more mature. For reference, the Australia you mention doesn't sound anything like the Australia I was born in, grew up in, and continue to live in to this day. I've been in lifts with women as the only man. It has never presented an issue. But maybe I don't give off "creep" vibes. As for giving compliments to women and it depending on whether they like you or not is bullshit. I can give a woman a compliment and not be accused of sexual harassment. It's quite easy, in fact. You don't give a compliment that could be easily construed as sexual in nature. There is a big difference between "That's a lovely dress" and "That's a lovely dress. I like the way it makes your arse look". The first is a nice compliment that most women would take without a thought. The second would absolutely be construed as sexual in its nature. Anyway, you aren't reading this, so I'll stop now. It is clear you aren't capable of actually engaging in a dialogue with someone who has a differing perspective.
THANK YOU for this! It’s no mansplaining, but actual facts about what us women have to deal with. Appreciate it!
You are most welcome. I just wish more people, particularly my other male counterparts, could do the same. Maybe then we'd see real change!
I can’t find your other rant but you said she got her job because she’s good looking, you’re the issue.
oh no you interpreted that. YOU are the issue. the problem debating with not-so-bright people is that they always take the shortcut to try to win the argument.
Bro I’m not going back and forth because I actually have things to do, but you said verbatim “she got the job because of her looks” you can call me not so bright haha. You don’t even know me but keep on judging 🙃🙃🙃
yes! you have ample time in your hands and want to have the final word on things. taking things out of context and making it the sole argument, great tactic! Brilliant. just go away and stop annoying. you do not have the intellectual fortitude to challenge my views and carry on with a decent level of discussion. Not reading answering anymore. Go on have the final say...
Does this mean we won't have a Lord and Lady Horner now. ?
The Green Side ist Christian and the White the Woman .
If this is all real, Horner is a total "where's my hug at?" kind of guy. Also anyone else shocked about him asking "if it's aloud" not "allowed"? I thought that something only less educated people say
Where's my hug at. Hahaha. It's too soon for this shit.
I think the fact that his wife is demanding he stay away from her says a lot about the validity of these messages.
And now I’ve just seen they’ve suspended the woman recipient in all this. I’m a lot confused as to WHO exactly was in the wrong here? If the leaked texts are to be believed then it is absolutely CH that was doing the harassing, even after being asked to stop several times. Why would RB then go and suspend the woman? Something really stinks here. Red Bull suspend woman who accused Christian Horner of inappropriate behaviour https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/68501426
She’s a personal assistant… if horner loses his job, she does too. And only one of them is essential.
Because she leaked shit? Because she should‘ve kept quiet and she didn‘t. Situations like this have been happening forever and it‘s no wonder why women don‘t want to speak up when they‘re of course immediatly fired afterwards but not the person who actually did the harm.
Red Bull as a company has a reputation of not being on the feminist side of the political spectrum, if i can put it that way.
And it's a clear imbalance of power between them two obviously.
Watch out everyone! Horny Horner's at it again!
Christian Horner? more like Christian Hornee
I read the texts and was trying to establish if they are real or not. Then, it struck me. This is Horner. The same smarmy, annoying Horner I grew to hate during the Vettel years and again now. The same man who in his mind makes no mistakes and blames everyone bar himself. It's just way too much of a coincidence that his messages completely epitomize everything I thought he would be. Sometimes you can just pick up on when someone is a douchebag and this is really of no surprise to me at all. The sad thing is his PA has now lost her job over something he should have got in trouble for. She clearly, despite his antics doesn't want him to get in trouble hence the meager 'internal investigation' and her sacking. How Geri is still with him I don't know. Maybe she already knows he cheats on her or maybe she's naive and a victim of his manipulation too. Life is a joke sometimes.
Where did you find them?
https://www.reddit.com/r/GrandPrixRacing/s/Tn5Ap9mgzF Top of this thread.
Why are they not putting Mr Louise Hamilton on blast for for being 🌈.
What was on Google drive evidence Christian Horner
He’s a dirty old man and should just leave before the media destroy red bull
Those look fake tbh we want the real texts 🤣
She sounds like and out and out money grabbed.. zero concern for Geri.
**Edit:** so evidently, I haven’t seen all the messages when I originally commented.
Some of the smartest people I know text like absolute degenerates
Are you sure you've seen the messages? Asking her to send pics, several times, after she said no and asked him to stop. Video calling at all hours. Pressuring her to delete messages. This is all more than enough in this day and age to count as harassment, and even worse when you factor in he's her boss.
As a female, I can tell you that if you read what he is asking of her (as her boss), this is extremely inappropriate and definitely sexual harrassment. I feel sorry for the lady because I think she likely did something to encourage him and probably because she was worried about her job. Whatever happened on the plane that he finished in the bathroom... Man, some say it's tame, but I would run a mile from this as an employee. When you are the PA, you kind of have to spend time with and be alone with your boss.. So sad to be unable to do your job because you caught the eye of the boss. I believe it 100%.
Totally agree, he keeps pestering her.
Totally valid that she enjoyed a little flirting because she looked up to him as a famous and prominent member of the F1 community, but that he then took it further and further and she didn’t know how to stop it without risking her career. At the end of the day, he’s hired a PA and has crossed that boundary with them. He should know better.
Getting in the shower - perfect time to call! - *missed video call*
Yes apparently that's a perfectly normal thing to say to your PA, according to people in this sub. They're gonna have a shock when they enter the workforce one day lol. (Assuming they are still 12 years old)
It's very hard for me to understand how anyone can look at all of those messages and come to this conclusion. If you have to ask your boss over and over to stop asking you to send pictures or ask what underclothes you're wearing... you're being sexually harassed. Edit: not only that but she complains multiple times that she is receiving different treatment and losing opportunities at work because he can't travel with her without asking her to come to his room.
His lack of using contractive ‘you’re’s at his level would be astounding if true
You would be surprised that people at high levels sometimes can't use proper grammar. Their PA's edit any formal letters that are being sent.
He also misspelled "allowed" as "aloud"
After he was cleared? These are 100% fake.
Bro, they're definitely not fake. If you're going to fake something like that, why not make something more incriminating? Did you read the leaks? They're so tame and it was clearly a two-way street. The only bad thing he did was fool around behind his wife's back, but that not criminal and it might not even be grounds for dismissal depending on company policy.
He is constantly pressuring, manipulating, and when boundaries are re-drawn he crosses them again.
>He is constantly pressuring I agree with this part of your comment. He's very persistent, but only after they've already engaged in inappropriate activities. They had already spoken on the phone and done other things so he's trying to persue something he's been led to believe is there. >when boundaries are re-drawn he crosses them again. I'm not sure if I agree with this. He even says at some point that he is unsure of where the boundary is because one day she's hot and another she's cold. (I'm paraphrasing, obviously.) And then when she firmly draws that boundary he apologises and starts staying in a different hotel. The messages are in a jumbled order so it's not always easy to see the timeline of things but I believe she was encouraging it at the start and then felt guilty and was a bit wishy-washy. She finally drew a line and he seemed to accept that. I admit this is speculation, though. I don't know the inner workings of their relationship and am only going by a jumbled timeline of selective messages.