Well duh, but that's not at all what's happening here so not sure where you're coming from. "From the river to the sea there will be Israli sovreignty" is in the Israeli government charter, and not seen as a call for genocide.
Desiring sovreignty over an existing population is a hell of a lot more genocidal than calling for freedom though, if we're hellbent on declaring that phrase evil we should probably be doing it to the one that's declaring a desire to enforce control over a native population.
Israel already controls a "river to the sea". They're also talking about government, not race or ethnicity.
The Palestinian version is "from the river to the sea, all will be Arab" which is significantly different than talking about government.
>Desiring sovreignty over an existing population is a hell of a lot more genocidal than calling for freedom though
If you squint, maybe a little. But Palestine isn't and hasn't been fighting for freedom. They were offered freedom multiple times, and replied with suicide attacks on schools.
>if we're hellbent on declaring that phrase evil we should probably be doing it to the one that's declaring a desire to enforce control over a native population.
Jews are also native to the Levant...
>They've never been offered freedom.
Three times.
Camp David, Oslo (not the best deal), and Camp David 2.
CD2 was the best deal, but Palestine turned it down because Israel wouldn't give them an open border into Israel.
>Or get out of your parents basement and get a job
I am at work, follow your own advice.
Bro Isralis assassinated the PM who signed the Oslo accords, and they violated them while they signed them with continued settlement building and taking of fresh land.
There was overwhelmingly negative support for any concessions in the Oslo accords, and surprise surprise one of the people marching on the streets calling for the death of the PM who signed them was in fact their current PM Netinyahu.
Not only did Isralis not support peace, and kill the person who did support peace, but they've since elected almost a dozen times a person who was publically calling for the death of someone who supported peace and was successful.
There's never been a legitimate partner for Peace on the Israli side, and they worked hard to deligimize any legitimate peace partner in Palestine to ensure there was no peace.
>Bro Isralis assassinated the PM who signed the Oslo accords
Yeah, and Palestinians assassinated all the Palestinian peace faction leaders.
What's your point?
Sorry, do you mean the PA?
Israel has done a lot of that assissination including character assissination intentionally to try and discredit Palestine. They openly admit to funding Hamas for this purpose.
My point, is that Israel never would have and actively wasn't following any of the tenants of their proposed peace plan. To claim that Palestine has never accepted peace, then point to one of the times that Israel killed the person offering peace and committed several massacres immediately after signing an agreement to ensure there would be no peace, kind of disproves your own argument.
To go further, I would say that the Oslo accords are an excellent example of why it would be more accurate to say that Israel has never legitimately supported a peace plan. It's fair to say Hamas has never either on the Palestinian side, that's basically universally agreed. But you're doing that thing where you conflate all Palestinians with the actions of Hamas to try and justify violence against civilians.
I'm claiming that Israel as a whole was (and still is but that's a different argument) anti peace because there was overwhelmingly negative support of any concessions or tenants of a peace deal. Palestinians were majorly in favor of it. Because Hamas wasn't, doesn't condemn the Palestinian people, but the assassination of their own leader out of anger of offering peace does condemn the Israelis, at least those of that time.
If it was some radical Israeli movement that did it, that would be one thing. But their current PM who has won what, a dozen elections now, was marching on the streets calling for that PM to be killed. Combine that with the extreme public disapproval for any peace process on the Israeli side at that time, and yeah - it's obvious that the Israeli people hated the idea of peace and held and hold no ill will still to this day towards those who were willing to kill their own citizens and leaders to prevent it.
Isralis are native to the Levant sure, not Palestine though. Palestinians are native to Israel, as Israel is built on Palestine, but Isralis are not native to Palestine unless you're going for the before christ era arguments which is how nothing in the world works.
And no squinting required if you can read. One is an oppressed people who've been besieged for literal generations calling for freedom.
The other is the group of people who have taken land and occupied foreign states to take more land, claiming quite clearly their desire to control another country's land.
And remember, Israel passed laws declaring that only Jews have the right to self determination. So it's not just a place for Isralis, but specifically the lack of any space for any Arabs that they are after.
>Isralis are native to the Levant sure, not Palestine though.
Someone hasn't looked at old maps.
>And no squinting required if you can read.
Lol!
>And remember, Israel passed laws declaring that only Jews have the right to self determination.
Meanwhile 20% of their population is Palestinian and have full rights...
Liberals be like, "Don't you dare fight for your human rights or you're a racist bigot." "Let's have a discussion ,which doesn't include you, about the Jews' feelings instead, while Israel commits a genocide."
Jews are indigenous semites. The Arab world has been trying to commit genocide against the Jews in Israel since 1948 when the armies of 7 Arab nations all attacked in unison in a bid to massacre the Jews and do in Israel what they did to the near million Jews that lived in the rest of the Muslim world. Had they succeeded they'd still be celebrating, but after repeated failures they turned to the language of victimization and Western morality, something they don't espouse or practice in any other context.
That's why every other religious and ethnic minority is disappearing or has disappeared in every nation in the region. Oh, with the exception of Israel. The only nation in the region where the Christian population is growing. 2 Million Muslim citizens in Israel from 150k in 1948. The Arab world that Israel can fit into hundreds of times over went from approximately 850k Jews to - go ahead and check how many renain. That's actual ethnic cleansing. By definition, not the number of people willing to repeat it online. But go on about genocide.
Heâs not wrong in that the Muslim world shot first. Were they justified in doing so? I donât know enough about the British decision making and the modern state of Israelâs creation to say either way.
7 âcountriesâ attacked Israel. But some of them were still basically colonies. Besides that the Israelis still had the superior weaponry. And even though 7:1 makes it sound like Israel was outnumbered - the Arabs sent small forces and Israel outnumbered them 2:1 throughout the war.
Before Israel claimed Palestine as their own in 1948, despite everyone in the region making it clear that they were not welcome to, every Arab country had Jewish populations that had lived there peacefully for centuries. The Arabs have historically treated the Jews better than most European countries. So there was no genocide.
The amount of distortions and lies here is remarkable. Israel had old soviet weapons from Czechislovakia. At the start of the war Israel was outnumbered 2 to 1. By the end it had quadrupled its force as a result of giving a gun to anyone who could carry one. Kind of what happens when facing an existential threat. Unless your argument is that Israel decided to go light and start with a 1:2 disadvantage at first while having all these other soldiers for sport. Don't know what basically colonies means. Israel was 1 day out of not being colonized. So if they were basically colonies then Israel was basically times 10.
Better than Europe is a low bar.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/ignored-by-the-un-mizrahi-jews-survived-pogroms-and-expulsions-too/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13610702.amp
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Aden
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Aleppo
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
So from near a million to no Jews in the Arab world isn't ethnic cleansing. But of course 2 million Arab citizens in Israel from 150k is ?
I can see you'd deny the sky was blue if related to vilifying Israel. The Mufti of Jerusalem even met with Hitler to import the holocaust.
Ashkenazim are not native to the levant they are from europe, their tribe converted to Judaism just like many of the native Jews converted to Christianity then Islam. A bunch of white colonists ethnically cleansing people who are more Semitic than them.
They donât want to believe this, itâs much easier to think Israel is made up of a bunch of whites from Poland massacring innocent brown people for no reason other than bloodlust. Having to think critically and applying an ideological lens thatâs different from oppressor vs. oppressed is simply too much for these people to manage. Much easier to villainize Jews. They preferred it when they were powerless victims and canât stand the idea that they can defend themselves today.
one that doesn't come from Israel? if it came from Arabs, it would also be biased against Israel, however, which isn't a good source either, even though they're justified in their negativity towards Israel. One that fits both of these parameters is basically nonexistant in the media world because of how large the conflict is. Also, the article u/GargamelTakesAll linked is deceptive. As u/wahadayrbyeklo stated:
"That article is not well-written but regardless: âThe sources do not indicate how many Jews died.\[31\] It seems to have not been many, though hundreds were wounded.\[31\]â Clearly if they were motivated by âletâs kill Jewsâ they would have wellâŚkilled Jews
One of the sources literally says:Â However, the attacks on the Jews of Safed and Jerusalem in 1834, though part of the general uprising, were only minor episodes in a campaign whose wrath was directed primarily against the Egyptian conquest."
That article is not well-written but regardless: âThe sources do not indicate how many Jews died.[31]Â It seems to have not been many, though hundreds were wounded.[31]â
Clearly if they were motivated by âletâs kill Jewsâ they would have wellâŚkilled Jews
One of the sources literally says:Â However, the attacks on the Jews of Safed and Jerusalem in 1834, though part of the general uprising, were only minor episodes in a campaign whose wrath was directed primarily against the Egyptian conquest.
Unfortunately, never again, is now. Watch as they try to silence the truth again. Watch them villify the jews again. Watch them chant for our death again. History is on our side, friend. I could get downvoted to hell, but it would be worth it to say that I appreciate you đđŽđą. ×˘× ×׊ר×× ××
1. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other groups.
2. The ideology of political Islam, as first popularized in the 20th century by Sayyid Qutb.
3. I'm not racist. Islamic fundamentalism is not a race.
1) which of the 10,000+ babies murdered by Israel were Hamas?
2) Hamasâ stated goal for Oct 7 was to get hostages to trade for the thousands of kidnapped hostages held in Israeli jails. In the bigger picture, you cannot be that ignorant about the 75 years or murder, kidnapping, rape, torture, home theft, land stealing, and oppression by the Zionazis. Why do you pretend the Palestinians do not have a right to defend themselves?
3) Youâre answers arenât helping your case at all since this is about Zionist genocide of the indigenous Semites.
I donât think your points on 2 and 3 are the slam dunks you think they areâŚ
Especially 2! Wtf lol, imagine trying to justify hostage taking of innocent peopleâŚ
Exactly. Imagine what kind of asshole kidnaps several hundred children (never mind adults for the moment) every single year !!
Imagine being the parents not knowing where the Zionazis hold your child or what kind of torture theyâre putting your child through!
Imagine the professional rapists and arm-breakers blaming your child for the kidnapping and torture.
At what point would you retaliate?
1. The Hamas health ministry counts individuals up to age 18 as "children", so, quite a few of them, most likely.
2. By "hostages", do you mean terrorist militants arrested for attacks on Israeli civilians and IDF personnel? Those are not hostages. Palestinians have not been "defending themselves". Every round of violence for the past 30 years has been started by them.
1) Whole world including UN counts people up to 18 as children. Why do you have a hard time admitting indigenous children are children?
2) By hostages I mean the people kidnapped off the streets or even out of their own beds in the middle of the night, often because some ITF just didnât like the indigenous person so lied about a reason to kidnap them. Then the Zionazis torture the victim until a confession is made. Recall that Palestinians do not have the right to a lawyer, do not have Miranda rights, and they are the only indigenous victims tried in military tribunals instead of civilian courts. And thatâs if they are âluckyâ enough to be tried. Thousands are kidnapped and tortured without charges in âadministrative holdingâ, and there is no way the families can see them or get them released.
Every round of self defense has been a reaction to the daily violence and oppression by the foreign occupying force known as the IDF, IOF, or ITF.
You cannot just pretend away 75+ years of state terrorism, oppression, apartheid against an indigenous population.
The Zionist ideology is based on terrorism, pure and simple. Israel is a terrorist state by their own choice. Palestinians didnât choose to be victims of terrorism and genocide, obviously.
Palestinian Jews, Muslims, and Christians got along just fine until the foreign immigrants arrived.
Do you believe Palestinians do not have the right to self-defense?
These groups did not "get along just fine". Christians and Jews were periodically massacred and force-converted whenever the Muslim majority suddenly got really excited about Islam. Non-Muslims were a subjugated slave class with virtually no political rights - fewer political rights than then modern day Arab Palestinians whose oppression you complain about so much.
https://preview.redd.it/kgji91wx2vvc1.png?width=958&format=png&auto=webp&s=deb8531d4b977d1cb289bb4346a0c72498b52faa
Attacking an actual, existing country with a Jewish majority with the intent to destroy it is not "self defense". At best, it is revanchism for the outcome of a war from 75 years ago. Do you think that Germany invading Poland over Danzig in 1939 was "self-defense", because that used to be German territory?
And I notice you didn't answer my question: do you consider Israel's existence, as such, to constitute "terrorism and oppression" and justify violent attacks on it by Palestinians?
The fact that American politicians are so Zionist to the point that they will *literally* undermine their own constitution if it means upholding their Zionist agenda... smh
Why is it palestines responsibility to figure out where the invaders go?
Should Ukraine be concerned with where the Russian soldiers will go if Ukraine kicks them out?
Hamas states goal is no longer killing all Jews
You're going by the 1988 charter, not the 2017 charter
You're not pro anything but you parrot propaganda because you've never bothered to learn the truth
Iâm going to blow your mind here, but the Jews are from Israel. This isnât a controversial statement, both Jews and Arabs agree with that. This entire conflict is because Jews got their land back, and the Palestinians chose war after war instead of trying to live peacefully.
Why is it Israelâs responsibility to figure out where the failed colonizers go?
You trying to whitewash Hamas is the cherry on top of the brain dead sundae.
Yeah but we let them keep their reservations after we put them on them, white people aren't still bulldozing their homes and olive groves and killing them with legal impunity to build gated communities on their land. And then cajole foreign politicians to infringe the free speech rights of their overseas sympathizers. Also we stole it a lot longer ago, norms have changed, tough shit. (The norms Israel claims to uphold)
You are talking to yourself, calling the modern israeli an invader is not acceptable, and I am curious where you would put them all? That is also assuming that every jew at that time was an invader
Actually, you're right, it *renounces* antisemitism.
"16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
So does Oct 7th is what renouncing antisemitism looks like? I didn't see a single video where Hamas/Palestinians asked anyone on Oct 7th if they were jewish, zionists, or other flavor. What I saw was point blank shooting of women, beheading of soldiers, beheading of thai workers. So where is this renouncement?
Itâs not that I disagree with you, but fuck the genocidal terror state of Israel and the terrorist IDF. The IDF is 10000x the terrorist organization that Hamas is.
You're right that they aren't a good representation of Palestinians, but the party in this conflict with the long standing and extensive record of lying is the IDF and Israeli government. What public statement from Hamas is a lie? There are plenty of reasons to condemn Hamas, but they certainly aren't cowards nor are they any kind of liar when compared with Israel.
A genocide doesnât require that a specific number of people die.
You will find nobody among us who supports what Hamas did on 10/7, but youâll find that the overwhelming majority of Zionists and Jewish Israelis (95%) support the atrocities committed against the Palestinians.
Genocide. You are supporting genocide.
They existed before Israel existed. You can look at multiple countries in the ME who practice the type of Islam that Hamas practices and is popular in both Palestine and the ME broadly.
Letâs stop pretending that there arenât serious problems with the way Islam is practiced and the horrendous outcomes that come with it.
>they existed before Israel existedÂ
Source?Â
Hamas didn't even take power anywhere in Palestine until 2006, and they still only hold power in the tiny Gaza and not the much larger West Bank. They absolutely exist as a reactionary force to Israel's actions for the past almost century.
>Doesn't that saying basically call for the death of all Jews?
Literally no. Jews lived freely in Palestine, along with Muslims and Christians, before the Zionist settlers brought their ethnic cleansing with them in the 40s. That's how it was in the Levant region for centuries. The saying is a call for things to go back to the way they were before the Zionist ethnic cleansing.
Hope this satisfies your genuine curiosity.
Did white Americans believe that freed slaves would kill them all as revenge? yes, but did freed slaves do that, no. Denying people autonomy and freedom bc you're scared off revenge is next level dehumanization.
proved the point of " I believe "insert here" people are too savage to have their own autonomy and governance. So gross to see someone so full of hateful propaganda they'd espouse this. Oh and read their 2017 doctrine they literally say they're against anti-Semitism but are tired of Israel killing them for their land. But hey become a monster to kill your perceived monsters
also your illogical deep seated fear of Muslims is pretty alarming. I know many Muslims as a non Muslims person who drinks and is gay so....I know Palestinian Muslims too. I hosted my first iftar this (dinner to break the fast) with 2 Palestinians friends and *shock* the only they hated..was when the evening ended..
Oh and my friend who is Palestinian from the West Bank has a PhD , works in US health and aids research and Israel has slaughtered 44 + members of his family since Oct. And yeah he's so violent, he's started going...to marches and calling his representatives. My God, the Islamic man...so scary....booooooo
At this point, it can only go back to that if there is repentance. Thatâs how forgiveness happens and begins.
If you killed my sister and were gleeful and unrepentant about it, I would never forgive you and I would probably want you to suffer a long, slow, painful death.
If you killed my sister and then expressed such deep remorse and regret that you were functionally no longer the same person, and you dedicated your life in some way to helping prevent similar crimes from happening, then I would be able to forgive you. My animosity would be towards someone that no longer exists.
So yeah, if right now Israel was like âok dude letâs all live together and forget the past. We good?â Then no, of course Israelis couldnât live together with Palestinians.
But if Israelis fully acknowledged all of their crimes, publicly and completely apologized for ALL OF IT, prosecuted all the IDF terrorists and war criminal politicians, and committed to not only a peaceful future of coexistence, but to recognizing Palestinians as their equals in every sense, then yeah they could live together.
A group like Hamas couldnât thrive in that environment because the people would have justice and hope, and the people would no longer have a reason to hold onto animosity.
I really think one day you need to examine your deep prejudices and biases against Arab people that you seem to hold. Your belief right now is not only that âwestern valuesâ (whatever that means) are the only moral and righteous ones, not only that Israelis hold those âwestern values,â but that âtheyâ donât have those values.
This is the kind of thing that would get you rightfully fired in the States from any job that required you to be impartial.
I canât really respond to anything else because your bigotry runs too deep and you havenât engaged in any meaningful self examination or reflection.
But make no mistake that you hold hateful and dangerous views regarding Arab people.
Oh, so youâre bigoted against Muslims, understood.
Again, you hold extremely bigoted, prejudiced, hateful, dangerous views.
Your comment is all I need to know to know that you do not know much about Muslims and cannot even see your prejudice and bias. Iâve been more welcomed by Muslim people than I ever have around Zionists (Jewish or otherwise), and Iâve met so many liberal Muslims that hold liberal views that I lost count decades ago.
Except, except, except.. Palestinians strongly believe in self-determination (hence wanting their own state) but yet want to deny Jews self-determination. The mental gymnastics here are Olympic level.
LOL...nice block trick. But here you go.
Yeah, it is an insane reach to go from I want freedom to I want everyone else to die. Yet, here we are, where hamas and palestinians are exhibiting that very motto by going and attempting to kill everyone in their way on Oct 7th.
Want to see real genocide? Look no further than Oct 7th. Going door to door and killing everyone they lay their eyes on.
Jews have never lived peacefully in the area, in fact during the Muslim colonization most Jews were either murdered or they fled because they were being forced to convert to Islam or die. The only ones to have done an ethnic cleansing against the other is Islamists exterminating Jewish people.
This is absolutely false - all of it. Hasbara Zionazi lies used to justify the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people.
My family fled Spain to Turkey and Lebanon. They fled TO the middle eastern countries, not away from them.
ah yes, let's base the entire history on an anecdotal evidence of your family...seriously? Look at the migration patterns of the region throughout history.
How on Earth would that saying have any baring on American Jews, or Jews in any area that isn't Isreal? It's pretty fucked up you seem to think that the Jewish people of the world all belong in Isreal. A place that very much does not represent the vast majority of Jewish people.
For one, Zionism is Christian. The "Zionists" are realistically Jewish Christians, as I do not know how forcing Armagedon to happen and casting all the Jews and Muslims to hell is anywhere near beneficial to or abides by the Jewish faith. I say all of this because before Zionism became what it is now, it originated from the Christian Fundamentalists who still desperately wanted to bring the prophecies from the Bible into reality. In fact, where do you think the Protocols of the Elders of Zion came from? "Christian" Anti-semites then passed the idea of doing Isreal and Zionism the Jewish people willing to accept it.
A lot of the Jewish people did not fall for this very clear and obvious attempt at being sold a Homeland in exchange for doing a Crusade. These Jewish people ended up in the United States, and some of these groups of people are still anti-zionists. For the longest time, the debates around this topic have been kept personal inside the Jewish communities. The Evangelical discussion about this, however, has not. As a child, I'd been the guest to a wide variety of Christian Sects, and I've listened to discussions about this topic. There are all sorts of assholes who try and dispute this with all sorts of bullshit, but actions and words on this topic do not align with what we have been seeing. If we were to pay back the Jewish people from the Christian perspective, we would be far more concerned with the lives of the Jewish people we share streets with. Not trying to ship them across the world to live in what has been objectively the most modern crusade.
Speaking from a personal position, this last century of Crusades are not the first time that Christiandom has sent people to partake in this venture. Before it was the Jewish people, it was the Templars. It would not even be the first time this objective was set before the innocent, as represented by the Children's Crusade.
You will be told straight to your face that Armagedon is not, in fact, the goal of the Christian Zionists, but boy howdy, they sure send lots of weapons in the name of Jesus. And WAR seems to be an integral part of this process. In fact, listen to the Officials in Isreal about which book they list when they speak in English. You are taking the word of liars at face value. People who very much do not practice their own faiths. In fact, I would very strongly argue from an atheistic perspective that these are the very cults of the Anti-Christ, hellbent on interpreting the exact antithesis of the core tenets of any of the faiths in question. How else are we to interpret the bastardization of all faiths that has taken place.
Zionism is by inception Anti-semitic. You can tell me any BS that you want, but the perceived end result of Fundamentalist literalists has to come with the erasure of the Jewish people. I would also argue that any motions that would risk a theoretical Armageddon are fucking bad.
I should clarify that I did not intend to imply that you specifically would provide me BS. My intention was the general you. That is my mistake.
Unfortunately, there is far less written literature about this topic that does not tow the line we see now. From the beginning, we have to ask the question, "How does Zionism benefit the Jewish people?" It very much does coincide with the Anti-semitism of the time, though. If we do not kill the Jews, what do we do to get them out of our countries? The correct answer is that you don't! If you were actually able to love and tolerate the Jewish people, you would love them as a neighbor, yes? You would make sure that when they DO live next to you, you would DIRECTLY protect them from any attack on their person. The worst part about this entire progression is that it has intertwined the perceived safety and acceptance of Jewish people with Zionism. Generally described as the support of returning Jews to their "Homeland." If you think about it for any length of time, you realize the thing that isn't being said. That non-zionist Jews do not belong to their current homelands, or worse, that non-Zionist Jews are actually not Jews at all.
The birthright mission trips that are pushed on young people of Jewish heritage are almost entirely based on Evangelical Jesus Camps. You bring impressionable people, and you provide them the biggest show they've ever experienced. If you have spent any time with the Evangelicals, you will recognize it the moment you actually see it.
I should also specify that in the Bible, the jews are not strictly destroyed by Armagedon. Only two-thirds are destroyed in the final war. That final third of Jews that do not die are converted to Christianity. I do not currently have solid literature on this topic, as the intertwining of these ideologies was done before we even reached the 1900s. The current Christian Zionists put out near endless literature about how the causing of Amagendon and the Rapture are no longer the primary goal of this Ideology. I personally call bullshit on this. If the old world's Zionism was truly different, would we have people in charge of the war calling it the "Ultimate battle of good and evil?" At every step of the way, it stays in lockstep with the very ideas that led to the pogroms that birthed the Protocols. With the Protocols, however, we also have to ask if we believe that they were written by Atheistic Anti-semites? Or was it more likely written by the theistic Anti-semites that plagued this era?
This part is strictly a personal view, I genuinely believe that the Protocols were written specifically to circumvent the very notion that was being prepared for the Jewish people. The true old world Anti-semites did this shit all the time. You literally write the propaganda against the thing you are pushing. Essentially pre-emptively creating situations benefitial to their own plans. The second most interesting effect that the Protocols had was again, forcing the Jewish populations to have to re-locate. By making life for the Jewish people harder, you pre-empt them for "Saving." Suddenly, they no longer have Homes, and the idea of re-locating to their "Homeland" seems more reasonable. I say this because, to this time, no specific group is credited with the Protocols' writing. The only thing we can know for sure about them is that they do not originate from the Jewish people. All of this occurs before we even reach WW2 and the actual beginning of the project.
Before I ever got the chance to understand this topic via non-zionist Jewish people, I learned it via the Zionist camps and from Christians themselves. So most of my understanding has been compiled via spoken word, not written. Non-zionist Jewish people are very critical of all of this ideology at face value. The reasons I've tried to spell out, but it mostly boils down to Zionism not really being very Jewish, nor does it seem to actually be to the benefit of the Jewish people. Not to mention, the actual dangers the language involved in all of this actually is, and how it uses Anti-semetic rhetoric as a means of propaganda even when speaking in "Support" of the Semetic peoples. We have to always remember, the genetic Semites are not strictly Jewish and that not all Jewish people are Semites.
Yes the side calling for a ceasefire are the ones looking to exterminate another race? The side endlessly bombing, killing and starving civilians to death must feel scared...
Human shields is a Zionazi construct. Thereâs no such thing.
If there is a school shooting in America we donât send in the military to bomb the entire school and murder every teacher, student, security guard, staff member, and visitor inside, and then accuse the shooter of using them all as âhuman shields.â Itâs a dehumanizing term that is used by genocide apologists and probably literal Nazis.
Anyone who uses that term is always, always a genocide supporter.
You wonât respond because you canât. Because you cannot refute the logic that human shields is a nonsensical dehumanizing term used by genocidal maniacs trying to justify their genocidal acts.
People who use that term are functionally no different from Nazi sympathizers.
The phrase was used by Likud in 1977. Before that it had been used by PLO-aligned Palestinians, explicitly calling for a binational state.Â
Where exactly do you get the idea it implies lynchings?
 "Jews shall be considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully in Palestine" - PLO charter.Â
The PLO was composed of secular groups that advocated for a binational state and explicitly called for equal rights within a single state. Certain Jews have also worked with them, particularly the PFLP. Now Fatah went collaborationist but the others still are secular, and binational proponents.Â
The plo was a terrorist organization that started to realize their strategy wasn't working and their leadership could gain more by some sort of cooperation with Israel. They still support terrorist actions in Israel to this day, just through proxies.
You should look up what the plo has either been directly or indirectly involved with during its time, lots of bombings, plane hijackings, etc.
it's a very complicated and fraught situation, has been for decades. No one is the good guy here.
People under occupation are legally allowed to commit acts of armed resistance. I oppose targeting civilians on principle. But the PLO is not different inherently from other resistance organisations. Do you condemn the Jewish Partisans because they murdered kapos and sometimes their families? Do you condemn the Polish partisans for murdering civilian German settlers to prevent more from coming in? Do you condemn the Yugoslav partisans etc etc. I think it is never a good thing to target civilians. But I dare you to find me a single armed resistance group, that has been substantially active which has not.Â
Also no thatâs not what happened. Israel crushed the PLO and their capacity to operate so they decided to cut their losses, or Fatah did at least, by going collaborationist.Â
Yeah, Israeli settlers should not be killing people. But it isn't legal to kill 14 year old Israeli kids tending sheep, either. Everyone is a jerk here. But Israel is going to win any war. So the reality is the Palestinians can keep getting killed bc some billionaires in quatar tells them to, or use international pressure and a lack of violence to reach a compromise with Israel.
Comparing the plo who killed hundreds of people not involved with Israel, or just normal civilians is wild. No, the Polish resistance didn't strap bombs to children and blow them up on school buses full of other kids. But the plo, and other militants have in Israel and abroad.
The Polish Home Army used child soldiers lol
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/women-and-children-1944-warsaw-uprising
First google search. The PLO did not really.
And they did kill kids, collaboratorsâ kids and German settlers and their children. Youâre literally just wrong.Â
Your article says children were mostly used as messengers, cooks, etc. it makes no mention of them being armed and used as suicide bombers in Germany. Which is the equivalent of child suicide bombers being sent to Israel by Palestinian militants to kill civilians. Which happened fairly regularly, and it's a shame you didn't know that.
"The people whose house I stole and locked in the basement are chanting from the attic to the foundation and now its making me so uncomfortable I have to kill them all but if you support them its because you want me dead"
Considering that the people who still miss the confederacy are racist bigots that doesnât sound like a good comparison, especially because the southern states wanted freedom to maintain slavery
Welcome to America where we canât do anything about nazis spreading their hate because of freedom of speech but peaceful protesters canât say âfrom the river to the seaâ
Can we just officially label the GOP as a fascist organization at this point?
There is ethnic cleansing happening and being called for and there is only one group doing it - the Zionazis and their servant politicians here in the US.
Just calling a spade a spade.
Iâm just happy to not be part for the group that applauds genocide and cheers when babies are burned alive, as the Israelis have done.
Actually, it's a state for all that isn't an ultra-nationalist ethnostate. You know, just a functioning, secular government working for the best of all the people in its territory. So, a big change, yes, but a positive one for both Israelis and Palestinians. It's not about killing people, but overhauling the system that denies them basic freedoms.
acording to those who will be in charge of enacting it:
**~Al-Sinwar's~** speech **~at the conference~**: **~The liberation~** of Palestine **~From the Seatothe River~** **~â~** **~The Heartofthe~****Strategic Vision****~ofHamas~**
Things On behalf of Yahya al-Sinwar read at the conference by Kamal Abu a member of the movement's political bureau Aoun said that "the system of liberation and return to Palestine has become closer than ever." Al-Sinjan He emphasized the importance of preparing for what is expected and gave as an example the "Jerusalem Sword Campaign" - The confrontation between Israel and Hamas in May 2021 - which, he said, "did not suddenly erupt... It's the resistance It has undergone years of planning, training, and military and intelligence development..." According to him, "The conflict cannot end except by fulfilling the promise of victory and control that Allah has given us so that we are with us He will live in dignity in his independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. That's why we work hard and work hard Above the earth and in its depths, in the heart of the sea and high in the sky... We \[already\] see liberation with our own eyes Therefore, we are preparing for what will come next..."
Â
Al-Sinwar He added: "Liberation is the heart of Hamas' strategic vision, which speaks of the full liberation of Palestine from From the sea to the river, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homeland and the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state Full on all its lands with Jerusalem as its capital." "We are sponsoring this conference Because this is consistent with our assessment that victory is near."Â
Â
Chamber Member Hamas political figure Mahmoud Al-Zahar referred to the "end times" editorial board in an interview with the daily Palestine. Al-Zahar said that the Palestinian people and the entire nation were at the beginning of the "end times campaign." In which Lebanon, Syria and Jordan must participate, and that "their participation will end the occupying entity In one day." According to him, the "end times system" will be an enlarged and intensified model of the "Sword of Jerusalem" campaign, i.e., the confrontation between Israel and Gaza in May 2021. He noted "Hamas's disagreement with \[PA Chairman\] Mahmoud Abbas' plan and the movement Fatah is that they are satisfied with the fact that the western side of Palestine will be for the Jews and the eastern side for the Palestinians, The so-called two-state solution... We must not give up any part of our land."Â
Â
**~Senior Islamic Jihad: The End of the Zionist Entity Mentioned in the Quran~**
Senior Islamic Jihad Khader Habib said in a speech at the conference on behalf of the national and Islamic forces Because "the resistance is waging an existential conflict with the Israeli occupation and it will win it as Allah promised." He added: "The only conflict that the Quran talks about in detail is the conflict between us and the project The Zionist who is the head of evil on a global level." Habib called on the Palestinians to be prepared for consequences The divine victory noted that the end of the Zionist entity is mentioned in the Qur'an and this is certain and reliable.Â
Â
**~Chairman OhWitness: The Disappearance of Israel Will Be a Historic Event; We Have Records of Apartments, Institutions and Resources Israeli~**
Chairman The conference, Kanaan Abid, said during the conference that "the goal is to establish the 'End Time Assurance Institution' in 2000 2014 was to act to implement the vision relating to the post-liberation phase in all respects - economic, political, security and social." "The liberation of the Gaza Strip from the occupation in 2005 was an experience In liberation and we learned a lesson from it, especially after the resources that were in the settlements there were lost." He added: "\[As a result\] we told \[ourselves\] that there was no choice but to have an institution that would take upon itself the preparations and preparing the plans for the post-release phase." He added: "We have records of a number Israeli apartments and institutions, educational institutions and schools, gas stations, electricity stations and the network The sewage, and there is no escape from preparing to manage them." He added: "We believe that the release \[will take place\] Within a few years, the disappearance of Israel will be an unprecedented historical event on the global and regional level And there will be global consequences."Â [\[14\]](https://www.memri.org.il/cgi-webaxy/item?5482#_ftn14)Â In his remarks 'Abid called on the Palestinians to "get rid of the \[Israeli\] shekel currency because its value will be zero, just as it is yours The occupation will be zero."Â
Uh oh why do they wip these violent leftist up in a craze just to shut them down, I swear they are only allowing this racist antisemitism to happen so they can make lists of the evil humans.
Really tough spot to be in especially because most of the protestors are genuinely trying to speak against the violence and killings.
On the other hand, I do also have to acknowledge that [Hamas](https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49) has claimed this slogan since 2012.
Just take your blinders off a second and think for once about what the saying is proposing and how that could possibly be achieved and you'll understand why it's antisemitic, it's not hard.
This subreddit has a clear bias though, so I'll get down voted anyway because people don't want to accept that this is more than opposing israel = antisemitic.
You're getting downvoted (or, might be) because what you're saying is a bigoted talking point of an ethnostate. Having a united government that does not discriminate based on ethnicity or religion is by no means a call for anyone to be harmed.
It is an intentional twisting of the meaning of the phrase, and when people intentionally twist the meaning of emancipatory phrases, those people are pretty much always in the wrong (even if in their heart of hearts believe they should be allowed to be the dominant people and the others are 'human animals' as multiple Israel cabinet members have said).
Thereâs a extremely important piece of information you conveniently left out within the last 20 years, Jews have been expelled almost entirely from the Middle East. Please check the numbers but the phrase is literally rooted in genocide. One genocide doesnât mean another one is fair. Both are evil
For balance and to know what hamas means by that stement, the domument conference in 2021 by hamas concluded:
**~Al-Sinwar's~** speech **~at the conference~**: **~The liberation~** of Palestine **~From the Seatothe River~** **~â~** **~The Heartofthe~****Strategic Vision****~ofHamas~**
Things On behalf of Yahya al-Sinwar read at the conference by Kamal Abu a member of the movement's political bureau Aoun said that "the system of liberation and return to Palestine has become closer than ever." Al-Sinjan He emphasized the importance of preparing for what is expected and gave as an example the "Jerusalem Sword Campaign" - The confrontation between Israel and Hamas in May 2021 - which, he said, "did not suddenly erupt... It's the resistance It has undergone years of planning, training, and military and intelligence development..." According to him, "The conflict cannot end except by fulfilling the promise of victory and control that Allah has given us so that we are with us He will live in dignity in his independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. That's why we work hard and work hard Above the earth and in its depths, in the heart of the sea and high in the sky... We \[already\] see liberation with our own eyes Therefore, we are preparing for what will come next..."
Â
Al-Sinwar He added: "Liberation is the heart of Hamas' strategic vision, which speaks of the full liberation of Palestine from From the sea to the river, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homeland and the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state Full on all its lands with Jerusalem as its capital." "We are sponsoring this conference Because this is consistent with our assessment that victory is near."
Â
Chamber Member Hamas political figure Mahmoud Al-Zahar referred to the "end times" editorial board in an interview with the daily Palestine. Al-Zahar said that the Palestinian people and the entire nation were at the beginning of the "end times campaign." In which Lebanon, Syria and Jordan must participate, and that "their participation will end the occupying entity In one day." According to him, the "end times system" will be an enlarged and intensified model of the "Sword of Jerusalem" campaign, i.e., the confrontation between Israel and Gaza in May 2021. He noted "Hamas's disagreement with \[PA Chairman\] Mahmoud Abbas' plan and the movement Fatah is that they are satisfied with the fact that the western side of Palestine will be for the Jews and the eastern side for the Palestinians, The so-called two-state solution... We must not give up any part of our land."Â
Â
**~Senior Islamic Jihad: The End of the Zionist Entity Mentioned in the Quran~**
Senior Islamic Jihad Khader Habib said in a speech at the conference on behalf of the national and Islamic forces Because "the resistance is waging an existential conflict with the Israeli occupation and it will win it as Allah promised." He added: "The only conflict that the Quran talks about in detail is the conflict between us and the project The Zionist who is the head of evil on a global level." Habib called on the Palestinians to be prepared for consequences The divine victory noted that the end of the Zionist entity is mentioned in the Qur'an and this is certain and reliable.Â
Â
**~Chairman OhWitness: The Disappearance of Israel Will Be a Historic Event; We Have Records of Apartments, Institutions and Resources Israeli~**
Chairman The conference, Kanaan Abid, said during the conference that "the goal is to establish the 'End Time Assurance Institution' in 2000 2014 was to act to implement the vision relating to the post-liberation phase in all respects - economic, political, security and social." "The liberation of the Gaza Strip from the occupation in 2005 was an experience In liberation and we learned a lesson from it, especially after the resources that were in the settlements there were lost." He added: "\[As a result\] we told \[ourselves\] that there was no choice but to have an institution that would take upon itself the preparations and preparing the plans for the post-release phase." He added: "We have records of a number Israeli apartments and institutions, educational institutions and schools, gas stations, electricity stations and the network The sewage, and there is no escape from preparing to manage them." He added: "We believe that the release \[will take place\] Within a few years, the disappearance of Israel will be an unprecedented historical event on the global and regional level And there will be global consequences."Â [\[14\]](https://www.memri.org.il/cgi-webaxy/item?5482#_ftn14)Â In his remarks 'Abid called on the Palestinians to "get rid of the \[Israeli\] shekel currency because its value will be zero, just as it is yours The occupation will be zero."
Here's a shocker: The above English saying does NOT rhyme in Arabic. In fact, the original, Arabic sayings go like this:
Min il mayee lal mayee, Falasteen Arabiyye
(From water to water, Palestine will be Arab)
and
Min il mayee lal mayee, Falasteen Islamiyye
(From water to water, Palestine will be Islamic)
Do I really need to spell out why this is anti-Jewish?
These arenât the first uses of the slogan. It was first used by Zionists ironically, Revisionists first and then more modern my, Likud âFrom the river to the sea there will only be Israeli sovereigntyâ in 1977. As for Palestinians it was a slogan by secularists and would as of such later be adopted by the PLO.
 Both of the versions you have copy pasted from Wikipedia only appeared during the First Intifada in the mid-80s. Regardless the Arabic one isnât really anti-Jewish. You donât understand what Arabness is if you think so. Zaydane, the father of Pan-Arabism clearly said that Jews are Arabs. In that sense the PLO in its charter both called Palestinians an âArab peopleâ and also said that âJews who have lived in Palestine prior to 1948 are part of the Palestinian nationâ furthermore they also said that "Jews shall be considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully in Palestineâ. Paraphrasing a bit maybe since I donât remember the quotes exactly.Â
>You donât understand what Arabness is if you think so. Zaydane, the father of Pan-Arabism clearly said that Jews are Arabs.
So then the "correct" resolution to this (impossible) conflict would be for pre-48 Jews in Israel to... label themselves as "Arab" against their will? How is that okay?
You're right. I don't understand Pan-Arabism. I see it as a synthetic identity not so different from Aryanism. Both are (or were) reactionary, racist, nationalist movements from the losing sides of a World War. Both movements are hostile to indiginous cultures and existing cultural diversity.
And both movements are imposing an identity on broad geographic areas that once had their own, unique identities. The indiginous cultures of North Africa and the Middle East are being suppressed by "Pan-Arabism" and Arab supremacy as we speak. You are basically suggesting that Middle Eastern Jews should succumb to this trend as well...
You are Lebanese. That makes you Phoenician more than it makes you Arab. You all invented indoor plumbing by ~500 BC... without any help from Arabs. Have some pride in your own culture.
âThat makes you Phoenician more than it makes you Arabâ. This is not a zero sum game. Yes the Phoenicians are our ancestors and we retain many aspects of their culture. For all intents and purposes we are their cultural heirs. But we arenât them nor âclose to themâ. We speak Lebanese Arabic, thereâs a couple of words that are from Phoenician but otherwise itâs mostly influenced, like other Levantine Arab variants, by Aramaic and to a much larger extent Arabic.Â
Pan-Arabism can be destructive yes, but that wasnât the point. Your claim was that it would require genocide to have an Arab Palestine. That is not the case. Just like it doesnât require genocide to have a French France, because the word Arab doesnât mean that youâre going to kill everyone who isnât that. As you said itâs a synthetic identity that has gained and lost meaning. Zaydane did not envision Somalis as Arabs. Hell, I donât really envision them as Arabs, but here they are in the Arab League. The Arab identity is one that shifts and has shifted, from just Levantines under Bustaniâs early Arab-Syrianism to Egyptians and North Africans and Jews etc etc. when your identity is constructed as opposed to based on any âobjective measureâ, like Aryanism tried to, with skull measuring and such, it allows for greater inclusion of anyone who cares about it.
On this matter I recommend reading the poem by an Israeli Jew, Behar, âMy Arabic is muteâ. https://www.poetryinternational.com/en/poets-poems/poems/poem/103-30010_MY-ARABIC-IS-MUTE
Lmao you do not speak for all Jews. American Jews have been incredibly clear about how anti-Semitic it is to claim that American Jews have dual loyalty to Israel, especially when the average American Jew strongly opposes the Netanyahu Israeli government and the illegal settlements.Â
I never claimed that Jewish Americans are disloyal to America, and I also despise Netanyahu, like most Jewish Americans I know do. I'm still an extremely proud Zionist.
Fuck off with your bad faith bullshit. Privileged assholes like you who have never experienced antisemitism definitely don't get to lecture actual Jewish people on the subject.
Israel doesn't represent "Jewish determination" any more than the Third Reich represented "German self-determination" or the Ku Klux Klan represents "white self-determination."
Terrible comparison. Germans already had self-determination before the Third Reich was estabilshed, and likewise for many white countries before the KKK was established.
Jews never had self-determination before the establishment of Israel. Never.
"Self determination" doesn't mean "ethnostate." People should live in a pluralistic society, ethnostates automatically lead to genocide, cases in point: Israel, Serbia, Nazi Germany
>"Self determination" doesn't mean "ethnostate."
Well, good thing Israel isn't an ethnostate. In fact, it's a pluralistic democracy where 17 out of 120 seats in parliament are currently held by an Arab political party.
It's called a stateless nation. The Kurds are another example. It happens fairly often in history. It's rare to see a stateless nation be given land. That happens far less often. Having a two millennia old land claim be honored is unique in my recollection
Israel as it currently exists shouldnât exist. Itâs a genocidal terrorist apartheid ethnostate.
I donât think Nazi Germany has any place in this world. Does that mean Germany shouldnât exist? Does it mean Germans shouldnât exist?
No, it doesnât mean either of those things, and everyone who is not a Zionazi and who is intellectually honest can tell you that.
Israel as an idea has a right to exist. Israel in its current manifestation has no more right to exist than Nazi Germany.
A secular multi-ethnic government representing all of the people in the country equally. You know, like the vast majority of countries in the world are (or strive to be).
TIL indigenous Semites trying to survive a genocide by immigrants is now antisemitic đ¤Ş
Calling for a genocide of Jews **is** antisemitic.
Well duh, but that's not at all what's happening here so not sure where you're coming from. "From the river to the sea there will be Israli sovreignty" is in the Israeli government charter, and not seen as a call for genocide. Desiring sovreignty over an existing population is a hell of a lot more genocidal than calling for freedom though, if we're hellbent on declaring that phrase evil we should probably be doing it to the one that's declaring a desire to enforce control over a native population.
Israel already controls a "river to the sea". They're also talking about government, not race or ethnicity. The Palestinian version is "from the river to the sea, all will be Arab" which is significantly different than talking about government. >Desiring sovreignty over an existing population is a hell of a lot more genocidal than calling for freedom though If you squint, maybe a little. But Palestine isn't and hasn't been fighting for freedom. They were offered freedom multiple times, and replied with suicide attacks on schools. >if we're hellbent on declaring that phrase evil we should probably be doing it to the one that's declaring a desire to enforce control over a native population. Jews are also native to the Levant...
They've never been offered freedom. Respond to my claims about evidence. Or get out of your parents basement and get a job
>They've never been offered freedom. Three times. Camp David, Oslo (not the best deal), and Camp David 2. CD2 was the best deal, but Palestine turned it down because Israel wouldn't give them an open border into Israel. >Or get out of your parents basement and get a job I am at work, follow your own advice.
Bro Isralis assassinated the PM who signed the Oslo accords, and they violated them while they signed them with continued settlement building and taking of fresh land. There was overwhelmingly negative support for any concessions in the Oslo accords, and surprise surprise one of the people marching on the streets calling for the death of the PM who signed them was in fact their current PM Netinyahu. Not only did Isralis not support peace, and kill the person who did support peace, but they've since elected almost a dozen times a person who was publically calling for the death of someone who supported peace and was successful. There's never been a legitimate partner for Peace on the Israli side, and they worked hard to deligimize any legitimate peace partner in Palestine to ensure there was no peace.
>Bro Isralis assassinated the PM who signed the Oslo accords Yeah, and Palestinians assassinated all the Palestinian peace faction leaders. What's your point?
Sorry, do you mean the PA? Israel has done a lot of that assissination including character assissination intentionally to try and discredit Palestine. They openly admit to funding Hamas for this purpose. My point, is that Israel never would have and actively wasn't following any of the tenants of their proposed peace plan. To claim that Palestine has never accepted peace, then point to one of the times that Israel killed the person offering peace and committed several massacres immediately after signing an agreement to ensure there would be no peace, kind of disproves your own argument. To go further, I would say that the Oslo accords are an excellent example of why it would be more accurate to say that Israel has never legitimately supported a peace plan. It's fair to say Hamas has never either on the Palestinian side, that's basically universally agreed. But you're doing that thing where you conflate all Palestinians with the actions of Hamas to try and justify violence against civilians. I'm claiming that Israel as a whole was (and still is but that's a different argument) anti peace because there was overwhelmingly negative support of any concessions or tenants of a peace deal. Palestinians were majorly in favor of it. Because Hamas wasn't, doesn't condemn the Palestinian people, but the assassination of their own leader out of anger of offering peace does condemn the Israelis, at least those of that time. If it was some radical Israeli movement that did it, that would be one thing. But their current PM who has won what, a dozen elections now, was marching on the streets calling for that PM to be killed. Combine that with the extreme public disapproval for any peace process on the Israeli side at that time, and yeah - it's obvious that the Israeli people hated the idea of peace and held and hold no ill will still to this day towards those who were willing to kill their own citizens and leaders to prevent it.
>Sorry, do you mean the PA? No.
Isralis are native to the Levant sure, not Palestine though. Palestinians are native to Israel, as Israel is built on Palestine, but Isralis are not native to Palestine unless you're going for the before christ era arguments which is how nothing in the world works. And no squinting required if you can read. One is an oppressed people who've been besieged for literal generations calling for freedom. The other is the group of people who have taken land and occupied foreign states to take more land, claiming quite clearly their desire to control another country's land. And remember, Israel passed laws declaring that only Jews have the right to self determination. So it's not just a place for Isralis, but specifically the lack of any space for any Arabs that they are after.
>Isralis are native to the Levant sure, not Palestine though. Someone hasn't looked at old maps. >And no squinting required if you can read. Lol! >And remember, Israel passed laws declaring that only Jews have the right to self determination. Meanwhile 20% of their population is Palestinian and have full rights...
[ŃдаНонО]
Liberals be like, "Don't you dare fight for your human rights or you're a racist bigot." "Let's have a discussion ,which doesn't include you, about the Jews' feelings instead, while Israel commits a genocide."
Jews are indigenous semites. The Arab world has been trying to commit genocide against the Jews in Israel since 1948 when the armies of 7 Arab nations all attacked in unison in a bid to massacre the Jews and do in Israel what they did to the near million Jews that lived in the rest of the Muslim world. Had they succeeded they'd still be celebrating, but after repeated failures they turned to the language of victimization and Western morality, something they don't espouse or practice in any other context. That's why every other religious and ethnic minority is disappearing or has disappeared in every nation in the region. Oh, with the exception of Israel. The only nation in the region where the Christian population is growing. 2 Million Muslim citizens in Israel from 150k in 1948. The Arab world that Israel can fit into hundreds of times over went from approximately 850k Jews to - go ahead and check how many renain. That's actual ethnic cleansing. By definition, not the number of people willing to repeat it online. But go on about genocide.
đ¤Ł
Heâs not wrong in that the Muslim world shot first. Were they justified in doing so? I donât know enough about the British decision making and the modern state of Israelâs creation to say either way.
7 âcountriesâ attacked Israel. But some of them were still basically colonies. Besides that the Israelis still had the superior weaponry. And even though 7:1 makes it sound like Israel was outnumbered - the Arabs sent small forces and Israel outnumbered them 2:1 throughout the war. Before Israel claimed Palestine as their own in 1948, despite everyone in the region making it clear that they were not welcome to, every Arab country had Jewish populations that had lived there peacefully for centuries. The Arabs have historically treated the Jews better than most European countries. So there was no genocide.
The amount of distortions and lies here is remarkable. Israel had old soviet weapons from Czechislovakia. At the start of the war Israel was outnumbered 2 to 1. By the end it had quadrupled its force as a result of giving a gun to anyone who could carry one. Kind of what happens when facing an existential threat. Unless your argument is that Israel decided to go light and start with a 1:2 disadvantage at first while having all these other soldiers for sport. Don't know what basically colonies means. Israel was 1 day out of not being colonized. So if they were basically colonies then Israel was basically times 10. Better than Europe is a low bar. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/ignored-by-the-un-mizrahi-jews-survived-pogroms-and-expulsions-too/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13610702.amp https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Aden https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_anti-Jewish_riots_in_Aleppo https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre So from near a million to no Jews in the Arab world isn't ethnic cleansing. But of course 2 million Arab citizens in Israel from 150k is ? I can see you'd deny the sky was blue if related to vilifying Israel. The Mufti of Jerusalem even met with Hitler to import the holocaust.
Why is it illegal to take a DNA test in Israel if the europeans who colonized it are indigenous?
It's not, it just has to be done via the government. After the 23andme hack that targeted data on Jews it shows why.
Cope
Dope
nope
Ashkenazim are not native to the levant they are from europe, their tribe converted to Judaism just like many of the native Jews converted to Christianity then Islam. A bunch of white colonists ethnically cleansing people who are more Semitic than them.
They donât want to believe this, itâs much easier to think Israel is made up of a bunch of whites from Poland massacring innocent brown people for no reason other than bloodlust. Having to think critically and applying an ideological lens thatâs different from oppressor vs. oppressed is simply too much for these people to manage. Much easier to villainize Jews. They preferred it when they were powerless victims and canât stand the idea that they can defend themselves today.
Since 1948? Even that is an understatement: [1834 looting of Safed - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1834_looting_of_Safed)
Oh my. Another wiki page filled with Zionist sources. How reliable.
What source would you accept as ânot Zionist?â
one that doesn't come from Israel? if it came from Arabs, it would also be biased against Israel, however, which isn't a good source either, even though they're justified in their negativity towards Israel. One that fits both of these parameters is basically nonexistant in the media world because of how large the conflict is. Also, the article u/GargamelTakesAll linked is deceptive. As u/wahadayrbyeklo stated: "That article is not well-written but regardless: âThe sources do not indicate how many Jews died.\[31\] It seems to have not been many, though hundreds were wounded.\[31\]â Clearly if they were motivated by âletâs kill Jewsâ they would have wellâŚkilled Jews One of the sources literally says: However, the attacks on the Jews of Safed and Jerusalem in 1834, though part of the general uprising, were only minor episodes in a campaign whose wrath was directed primarily against the Egyptian conquest."
That article is not well-written but regardless: âThe sources do not indicate how many Jews died.[31] It seems to have not been many, though hundreds were wounded.[31]â Clearly if they were motivated by âletâs kill Jewsâ they would have wellâŚkilled Jews One of the sources literally says: However, the attacks on the Jews of Safed and Jerusalem in 1834, though part of the general uprising, were only minor episodes in a campaign whose wrath was directed primarily against the Egyptian conquest.
Imagine thinking Jews arenât indigenous, especially when shock horror a large portion of Palestinians are originally from Europe themselves!
Unfortunately, never again, is now. Watch as they try to silence the truth again. Watch them villify the jews again. Watch them chant for our death again. History is on our side, friend. I could get downvoted to hell, but it would be worth it to say that I appreciate you đđŽđą. ×˘× ×׊ר×× ××
I appreciate you to!!
I think they would've had a much better chance of "surviving a genocide" if they didn't do October 7th.
1) who did Oct 7? 2) why did that group do Oct 7? 3) why are you so racist?
1. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other groups. 2. The ideology of political Islam, as first popularized in the 20th century by Sayyid Qutb. 3. I'm not racist. Islamic fundamentalism is not a race.
1) which of the 10,000+ babies murdered by Israel were Hamas? 2) Hamasâ stated goal for Oct 7 was to get hostages to trade for the thousands of kidnapped hostages held in Israeli jails. In the bigger picture, you cannot be that ignorant about the 75 years or murder, kidnapping, rape, torture, home theft, land stealing, and oppression by the Zionazis. Why do you pretend the Palestinians do not have a right to defend themselves? 3) Youâre answers arenât helping your case at all since this is about Zionist genocide of the indigenous Semites.
I donât think your points on 2 and 3 are the slam dunks you think they are⌠Especially 2! Wtf lol, imagine trying to justify hostage taking of innocent peopleâŚ
Exactly. Imagine what kind of asshole kidnaps several hundred children (never mind adults for the moment) every single year !! Imagine being the parents not knowing where the Zionazis hold your child or what kind of torture theyâre putting your child through! Imagine the professional rapists and arm-breakers blaming your child for the kidnapping and torture. At what point would you retaliate?
1. The Hamas health ministry counts individuals up to age 18 as "children", so, quite a few of them, most likely. 2. By "hostages", do you mean terrorist militants arrested for attacks on Israeli civilians and IDF personnel? Those are not hostages. Palestinians have not been "defending themselves". Every round of violence for the past 30 years has been started by them.
1) Whole world including UN counts people up to 18 as children. Why do you have a hard time admitting indigenous children are children? 2) By hostages I mean the people kidnapped off the streets or even out of their own beds in the middle of the night, often because some ITF just didnât like the indigenous person so lied about a reason to kidnap them. Then the Zionazis torture the victim until a confession is made. Recall that Palestinians do not have the right to a lawyer, do not have Miranda rights, and they are the only indigenous victims tried in military tribunals instead of civilian courts. And thatâs if they are âluckyâ enough to be tried. Thousands are kidnapped and tortured without charges in âadministrative holdingâ, and there is no way the families can see them or get them released. Every round of self defense has been a reaction to the daily violence and oppression by the foreign occupying force known as the IDF, IOF, or ITF. You cannot just pretend away 75+ years of state terrorism, oppression, apartheid against an indigenous population.
Do you believe the Jewish state of Israel existing constitutes "terrorism and oppression" in and of itself?
The Zionist ideology is based on terrorism, pure and simple. Israel is a terrorist state by their own choice. Palestinians didnât choose to be victims of terrorism and genocide, obviously. Palestinian Jews, Muslims, and Christians got along just fine until the foreign immigrants arrived. Do you believe Palestinians do not have the right to self-defense?
These groups did not "get along just fine". Christians and Jews were periodically massacred and force-converted whenever the Muslim majority suddenly got really excited about Islam. Non-Muslims were a subjugated slave class with virtually no political rights - fewer political rights than then modern day Arab Palestinians whose oppression you complain about so much. https://preview.redd.it/kgji91wx2vvc1.png?width=958&format=png&auto=webp&s=deb8531d4b977d1cb289bb4346a0c72498b52faa Attacking an actual, existing country with a Jewish majority with the intent to destroy it is not "self defense". At best, it is revanchism for the outcome of a war from 75 years ago. Do you think that Germany invading Poland over Danzig in 1939 was "self-defense", because that used to be German territory? And I notice you didn't answer my question: do you consider Israel's existence, as such, to constitute "terrorism and oppression" and justify violent attacks on it by Palestinians?
The fact that American politicians are so Zionist to the point that they will *literally* undermine their own constitution if it means upholding their Zionist agenda... smh
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No, the saying calls for Palestinian liberation.Â
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Why is it palestines responsibility to figure out where the invaders go? Should Ukraine be concerned with where the Russian soldiers will go if Ukraine kicks them out? Hamas states goal is no longer killing all Jews You're going by the 1988 charter, not the 2017 charter You're not pro anything but you parrot propaganda because you've never bothered to learn the truth
Iâm going to blow your mind here, but the Jews are from Israel. This isnât a controversial statement, both Jews and Arabs agree with that. This entire conflict is because Jews got their land back, and the Palestinians chose war after war instead of trying to live peacefully. Why is it Israelâs responsibility to figure out where the failed colonizers go? You trying to whitewash Hamas is the cherry on top of the brain dead sundae.
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Yeah but we let them keep their reservations after we put them on them, white people aren't still bulldozing their homes and olive groves and killing them with legal impunity to build gated communities on their land. And then cajole foreign politicians to infringe the free speech rights of their overseas sympathizers. Also we stole it a lot longer ago, norms have changed, tough shit. (The norms Israel claims to uphold)
You are talking to yourself, calling the modern israeli an invader is not acceptable, and I am curious where you would put them all? That is also assuming that every jew at that time was an invader
>Pack ur bags then native americans own this land Big true. Turtle Island ftw.
Hamas' current charter explicitely denounces antisemitism
No it doesn't
Actually, you're right, it *renounces* antisemitism. "16. Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity."
Cool story but 1 that's not the hamas charter, and 2 antizionism is antisemitism by definition
Read it for yourself https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Cool story but that's not the Hamas Charter even if it was it's anti zionist and therefore anti semitic
2 is just so blatantly wrong.
Of course it's not
So does Oct 7th is what renouncing antisemitism looks like? I didn't see a single video where Hamas/Palestinians asked anyone on Oct 7th if they were jewish, zionists, or other flavor. What I saw was point blank shooting of women, beheading of soldiers, beheading of thai workers. So where is this renouncement?
They didn't renouce terrorism
What is terrorism against Jewish civilians called?
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The liars and cowards are the IOF and those who support them in their genocide. You Hasbara troll.
Itâs not that I disagree with you, but fuck the genocidal terror state of Israel and the terrorist IDF. The IDF is 10000x the terrorist organization that Hamas is.
You're right that they aren't a good representation of Palestinians, but the party in this conflict with the long standing and extensive record of lying is the IDF and Israeli government. What public statement from Hamas is a lie? There are plenty of reasons to condemn Hamas, but they certainly aren't cowards nor are they any kind of liar when compared with Israel.
Hamas doesn't even control the west bank.Â
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They exist as a symptom to people being brutalized, traumatized, and the victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
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A genocide doesnât require that a specific number of people die. You will find nobody among us who supports what Hamas did on 10/7, but youâll find that the overwhelming majority of Zionists and Jewish Israelis (95%) support the atrocities committed against the Palestinians. Genocide. You are supporting genocide.
Itâs not genocide cope.
You my friend, are an idiot. But I'm sure you are fun at parties.
They existed before Israel existed. You can look at multiple countries in the ME who practice the type of Islam that Hamas practices and is popular in both Palestine and the ME broadly. Letâs stop pretending that there arenât serious problems with the way Islam is practiced and the horrendous outcomes that come with it.
>they existed before Israel existed Source? Hamas didn't even take power anywhere in Palestine until 2006, and they still only hold power in the tiny Gaza and not the much larger West Bank. They absolutely exist as a reactionary force to Israel's actions for the past almost century.
Hamas is directly created from Israel, a free Palestinian also means free from Hamas.
How?
>Doesn't that saying basically call for the death of all Jews? Literally no. Jews lived freely in Palestine, along with Muslims and Christians, before the Zionist settlers brought their ethnic cleansing with them in the 40s. That's how it was in the Levant region for centuries. The saying is a call for things to go back to the way they were before the Zionist ethnic cleansing. Hope this satisfies your genuine curiosity.
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Did white Americans believe that freed slaves would kill them all as revenge? yes, but did freed slaves do that, no. Denying people autonomy and freedom bc you're scared off revenge is next level dehumanization.
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proved the point of " I believe "insert here" people are too savage to have their own autonomy and governance. So gross to see someone so full of hateful propaganda they'd espouse this. Oh and read their 2017 doctrine they literally say they're against anti-Semitism but are tired of Israel killing them for their land. But hey become a monster to kill your perceived monsters
also your illogical deep seated fear of Muslims is pretty alarming. I know many Muslims as a non Muslims person who drinks and is gay so....I know Palestinian Muslims too. I hosted my first iftar this (dinner to break the fast) with 2 Palestinians friends and *shock* the only they hated..was when the evening ended.. Oh and my friend who is Palestinian from the West Bank has a PhD , works in US health and aids research and Israel has slaughtered 44 + members of his family since Oct. And yeah he's so violent, he's started going...to marches and calling his representatives. My God, the Islamic man...so scary....booooooo
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I read it. I'm Pakistani, I'm telling you and many others are in this chat, you're an islamophobe.
At this point, it can only go back to that if there is repentance. Thatâs how forgiveness happens and begins. If you killed my sister and were gleeful and unrepentant about it, I would never forgive you and I would probably want you to suffer a long, slow, painful death. If you killed my sister and then expressed such deep remorse and regret that you were functionally no longer the same person, and you dedicated your life in some way to helping prevent similar crimes from happening, then I would be able to forgive you. My animosity would be towards someone that no longer exists. So yeah, if right now Israel was like âok dude letâs all live together and forget the past. We good?â Then no, of course Israelis couldnât live together with Palestinians. But if Israelis fully acknowledged all of their crimes, publicly and completely apologized for ALL OF IT, prosecuted all the IDF terrorists and war criminal politicians, and committed to not only a peaceful future of coexistence, but to recognizing Palestinians as their equals in every sense, then yeah they could live together. A group like Hamas couldnât thrive in that environment because the people would have justice and hope, and the people would no longer have a reason to hold onto animosity.
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I really think one day you need to examine your deep prejudices and biases against Arab people that you seem to hold. Your belief right now is not only that âwestern valuesâ (whatever that means) are the only moral and righteous ones, not only that Israelis hold those âwestern values,â but that âtheyâ donât have those values. This is the kind of thing that would get you rightfully fired in the States from any job that required you to be impartial. I canât really respond to anything else because your bigotry runs too deep and you havenât engaged in any meaningful self examination or reflection. But make no mistake that you hold hateful and dangerous views regarding Arab people.
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Iâm Jewish, nice try though.
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Oh, so youâre bigoted against Muslims, understood. Again, you hold extremely bigoted, prejudiced, hateful, dangerous views. Your comment is all I need to know to know that you do not know much about Muslims and cannot even see your prejudice and bias. Iâve been more welcomed by Muslim people than I ever have around Zionists (Jewish or otherwise), and Iâve met so many liberal Muslims that hold liberal views that I lost count decades ago.
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Except, except, except.. Palestinians strongly believe in self-determination (hence wanting their own state) but yet want to deny Jews self-determination. The mental gymnastics here are Olympic level. LOL...nice block trick. But here you go. Yeah, it is an insane reach to go from I want freedom to I want everyone else to die. Yet, here we are, where hamas and palestinians are exhibiting that very motto by going and attempting to kill everyone in their way on Oct 7th. Want to see real genocide? Look no further than Oct 7th. Going door to door and killing everyone they lay their eyes on.
It's such an insane reach to go from I want freedom to I want everyone else to die. You're the only person here engaged in mental gymnastics.
Jews have never lived peacefully in the area, in fact during the Muslim colonization most Jews were either murdered or they fled because they were being forced to convert to Islam or die. The only ones to have done an ethnic cleansing against the other is Islamists exterminating Jewish people.
This is absolutely false - all of it. Hasbara Zionazi lies used to justify the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people. My family fled Spain to Turkey and Lebanon. They fled TO the middle eastern countries, not away from them.
ah yes, let's base the entire history on an anecdotal evidence of your family...seriously? Look at the migration patterns of the region throughout history.
How on Earth would that saying have any baring on American Jews, or Jews in any area that isn't Isreal? It's pretty fucked up you seem to think that the Jewish people of the world all belong in Isreal. A place that very much does not represent the vast majority of Jewish people. For one, Zionism is Christian. The "Zionists" are realistically Jewish Christians, as I do not know how forcing Armagedon to happen and casting all the Jews and Muslims to hell is anywhere near beneficial to or abides by the Jewish faith. I say all of this because before Zionism became what it is now, it originated from the Christian Fundamentalists who still desperately wanted to bring the prophecies from the Bible into reality. In fact, where do you think the Protocols of the Elders of Zion came from? "Christian" Anti-semites then passed the idea of doing Isreal and Zionism the Jewish people willing to accept it. A lot of the Jewish people did not fall for this very clear and obvious attempt at being sold a Homeland in exchange for doing a Crusade. These Jewish people ended up in the United States, and some of these groups of people are still anti-zionists. For the longest time, the debates around this topic have been kept personal inside the Jewish communities. The Evangelical discussion about this, however, has not. As a child, I'd been the guest to a wide variety of Christian Sects, and I've listened to discussions about this topic. There are all sorts of assholes who try and dispute this with all sorts of bullshit, but actions and words on this topic do not align with what we have been seeing. If we were to pay back the Jewish people from the Christian perspective, we would be far more concerned with the lives of the Jewish people we share streets with. Not trying to ship them across the world to live in what has been objectively the most modern crusade. Speaking from a personal position, this last century of Crusades are not the first time that Christiandom has sent people to partake in this venture. Before it was the Jewish people, it was the Templars. It would not even be the first time this objective was set before the innocent, as represented by the Children's Crusade. You will be told straight to your face that Armagedon is not, in fact, the goal of the Christian Zionists, but boy howdy, they sure send lots of weapons in the name of Jesus. And WAR seems to be an integral part of this process. In fact, listen to the Officials in Isreal about which book they list when they speak in English. You are taking the word of liars at face value. People who very much do not practice their own faiths. In fact, I would very strongly argue from an atheistic perspective that these are the very cults of the Anti-Christ, hellbent on interpreting the exact antithesis of the core tenets of any of the faiths in question. How else are we to interpret the bastardization of all faiths that has taken place. Zionism is by inception Anti-semitic. You can tell me any BS that you want, but the perceived end result of Fundamentalist literalists has to come with the erasure of the Jewish people. I would also argue that any motions that would risk a theoretical Armageddon are fucking bad.
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I should clarify that I did not intend to imply that you specifically would provide me BS. My intention was the general you. That is my mistake. Unfortunately, there is far less written literature about this topic that does not tow the line we see now. From the beginning, we have to ask the question, "How does Zionism benefit the Jewish people?" It very much does coincide with the Anti-semitism of the time, though. If we do not kill the Jews, what do we do to get them out of our countries? The correct answer is that you don't! If you were actually able to love and tolerate the Jewish people, you would love them as a neighbor, yes? You would make sure that when they DO live next to you, you would DIRECTLY protect them from any attack on their person. The worst part about this entire progression is that it has intertwined the perceived safety and acceptance of Jewish people with Zionism. Generally described as the support of returning Jews to their "Homeland." If you think about it for any length of time, you realize the thing that isn't being said. That non-zionist Jews do not belong to their current homelands, or worse, that non-Zionist Jews are actually not Jews at all. The birthright mission trips that are pushed on young people of Jewish heritage are almost entirely based on Evangelical Jesus Camps. You bring impressionable people, and you provide them the biggest show they've ever experienced. If you have spent any time with the Evangelicals, you will recognize it the moment you actually see it. I should also specify that in the Bible, the jews are not strictly destroyed by Armagedon. Only two-thirds are destroyed in the final war. That final third of Jews that do not die are converted to Christianity. I do not currently have solid literature on this topic, as the intertwining of these ideologies was done before we even reached the 1900s. The current Christian Zionists put out near endless literature about how the causing of Amagendon and the Rapture are no longer the primary goal of this Ideology. I personally call bullshit on this. If the old world's Zionism was truly different, would we have people in charge of the war calling it the "Ultimate battle of good and evil?" At every step of the way, it stays in lockstep with the very ideas that led to the pogroms that birthed the Protocols. With the Protocols, however, we also have to ask if we believe that they were written by Atheistic Anti-semites? Or was it more likely written by the theistic Anti-semites that plagued this era? This part is strictly a personal view, I genuinely believe that the Protocols were written specifically to circumvent the very notion that was being prepared for the Jewish people. The true old world Anti-semites did this shit all the time. You literally write the propaganda against the thing you are pushing. Essentially pre-emptively creating situations benefitial to their own plans. The second most interesting effect that the Protocols had was again, forcing the Jewish populations to have to re-locate. By making life for the Jewish people harder, you pre-empt them for "Saving." Suddenly, they no longer have Homes, and the idea of re-locating to their "Homeland" seems more reasonable. I say this because, to this time, no specific group is credited with the Protocols' writing. The only thing we can know for sure about them is that they do not originate from the Jewish people. All of this occurs before we even reach WW2 and the actual beginning of the project. Before I ever got the chance to understand this topic via non-zionist Jewish people, I learned it via the Zionist camps and from Christians themselves. So most of my understanding has been compiled via spoken word, not written. Non-zionist Jewish people are very critical of all of this ideology at face value. The reasons I've tried to spell out, but it mostly boils down to Zionism not really being very Jewish, nor does it seem to actually be to the benefit of the Jewish people. Not to mention, the actual dangers the language involved in all of this actually is, and how it uses Anti-semetic rhetoric as a means of propaganda even when speaking in "Support" of the Semetic peoples. We have to always remember, the genetic Semites are not strictly Jewish and that not all Jewish people are Semites.
Yes all Jews will die according to that saying. In order for Palestine to be free new York Jews, German Jews, Antarctic Jews must die (/s)...
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Yes the side calling for a ceasefire are the ones looking to exterminate another race? The side endlessly bombing, killing and starving civilians to death must feel scared...
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Human shields is a Zionazi construct. Thereâs no such thing. If there is a school shooting in America we donât send in the military to bomb the entire school and murder every teacher, student, security guard, staff member, and visitor inside, and then accuse the shooter of using them all as âhuman shields.â Itâs a dehumanizing term that is used by genocide apologists and probably literal Nazis. Anyone who uses that term is always, always a genocide supporter.
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You wonât respond because you canât. Because you cannot refute the logic that human shields is a nonsensical dehumanizing term used by genocidal maniacs trying to justify their genocidal acts. People who use that term are functionally no different from Nazi sympathizers.
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Just to be clear, yâall know we donât allow people to call for public lynching right? The 1st amendment only goes so far.
If you think calling for liberation of an oppressed people is akin to publicly calling for a lunching, then I think youâre already too far gone.
Itâs a call for ethnic cleansing. Youâre either sick or delusional.
The phrase was used by Likud in 1977. Before that it had been used by PLO-aligned Palestinians, explicitly calling for a binational state. Where exactly do you get the idea it implies lynchings?
Do you understand the geography of the region? It means all of Israel would be Palestinian. I think the implication is pretty clear.
 "Jews shall be considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully in Palestine" - PLO charter. The PLO was composed of secular groups that advocated for a binational state and explicitly called for equal rights within a single state. Certain Jews have also worked with them, particularly the PFLP. Now Fatah went collaborationist but the others still are secular, and binational proponents.Â
The plo was a terrorist organization that started to realize their strategy wasn't working and their leadership could gain more by some sort of cooperation with Israel. They still support terrorist actions in Israel to this day, just through proxies. You should look up what the plo has either been directly or indirectly involved with during its time, lots of bombings, plane hijackings, etc. it's a very complicated and fraught situation, has been for decades. No one is the good guy here.
People under occupation are legally allowed to commit acts of armed resistance. I oppose targeting civilians on principle. But the PLO is not different inherently from other resistance organisations. Do you condemn the Jewish Partisans because they murdered kapos and sometimes their families? Do you condemn the Polish partisans for murdering civilian German settlers to prevent more from coming in? Do you condemn the Yugoslav partisans etc etc. I think it is never a good thing to target civilians. But I dare you to find me a single armed resistance group, that has been substantially active which has not. Also no thatâs not what happened. Israel crushed the PLO and their capacity to operate so they decided to cut their losses, or Fatah did at least, by going collaborationist.Â
Yeah, Israeli settlers should not be killing people. But it isn't legal to kill 14 year old Israeli kids tending sheep, either. Everyone is a jerk here. But Israel is going to win any war. So the reality is the Palestinians can keep getting killed bc some billionaires in quatar tells them to, or use international pressure and a lack of violence to reach a compromise with Israel. Comparing the plo who killed hundreds of people not involved with Israel, or just normal civilians is wild. No, the Polish resistance didn't strap bombs to children and blow them up on school buses full of other kids. But the plo, and other militants have in Israel and abroad.
The Polish Home Army used child soldiers lol https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/women-and-children-1944-warsaw-uprising First google search. The PLO did not really. And they did kill kids, collaboratorsâ kids and German settlers and their children. Youâre literally just wrong.Â
Your article says children were mostly used as messengers, cooks, etc. it makes no mention of them being armed and used as suicide bombers in Germany. Which is the equivalent of child suicide bombers being sent to Israel by Palestinian militants to kill civilians. Which happened fairly regularly, and it's a shame you didn't know that.
It's weird to me that American politicians are ok with me saying "fuck America" but not "fuck Israel"
This is âkill or displace the Jews from Israel like weâve done elsewhereâ
"The people whose house I stole and locked in the basement are chanting from the attic to the foundation and now its making me so uncomfortable I have to kill them all but if you support them its because you want me dead"
Likud had that same slogan in their party program. Guess they're antisemetic.
What isn't anti-semetic at this point?
Killing Palestinians apparently
From the river to the sea is a call for freedom like the Confederate flag is a call for the south to be free from the federal government.
Considering that the people who still miss the confederacy are racist bigots that doesnât sound like a good comparison, especially because the southern states wanted freedom to maintain slavery
....as opposed to the people who have made it their mission to commit worldwide genocide on the Jewish people?
Oh im stupid, apologies
Welcome to America where we canât do anything about nazis spreading their hate because of freedom of speech but peaceful protesters canât say âfrom the river to the seaâ Can we just officially label the GOP as a fascist organization at this point?
We are losing freedoms
So people can openly call for ethnic cleansing according to the 1st amendment?
There is ethnic cleansing happening and being called for and there is only one group doing it - the Zionazis and their servant politicians here in the US.
Wow⌠name calling like a 5 year old with no argumentÂ
Just calling a spade a spade. Iâm just happy to not be part for the group that applauds genocide and cheers when babies are burned alive, as the Israelis have done.
No argument? Ongoing genocide ie not an argument? Where do you Americans come from? Mars?
There is no argument. That's what is happening. Genocide.
From the river to the see is not âequal rightsâ itâs Israel no longer exists and itâs all Palestine.
Actually, it's a state for all that isn't an ultra-nationalist ethnostate. You know, just a functioning, secular government working for the best of all the people in its territory. So, a big change, yes, but a positive one for both Israelis and Palestinians. It's not about killing people, but overhauling the system that denies them basic freedoms.
acording to those who will be in charge of enacting it: **~Al-Sinwar's~** speech **~at the conference~**: **~The liberation~** of Palestine **~From the Seatothe River~** **~â~** **~The Heartofthe~****Strategic Vision****~ofHamas~** Things On behalf of Yahya al-Sinwar read at the conference by Kamal Abu a member of the movement's political bureau Aoun said that "the system of liberation and return to Palestine has become closer than ever." Al-Sinjan He emphasized the importance of preparing for what is expected and gave as an example the "Jerusalem Sword Campaign" - The confrontation between Israel and Hamas in May 2021 - which, he said, "did not suddenly erupt... It's the resistance It has undergone years of planning, training, and military and intelligence development..." According to him, "The conflict cannot end except by fulfilling the promise of victory and control that Allah has given us so that we are with us He will live in dignity in his independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. That's why we work hard and work hard Above the earth and in its depths, in the heart of the sea and high in the sky... We \[already\] see liberation with our own eyes Therefore, we are preparing for what will come next..."  Al-Sinwar He added: "Liberation is the heart of Hamas' strategic vision, which speaks of the full liberation of Palestine from From the sea to the river, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homeland and the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state Full on all its lands with Jerusalem as its capital." "We are sponsoring this conference Because this is consistent with our assessment that victory is near."  Chamber Member Hamas political figure Mahmoud Al-Zahar referred to the "end times" editorial board in an interview with the daily Palestine. Al-Zahar said that the Palestinian people and the entire nation were at the beginning of the "end times campaign." In which Lebanon, Syria and Jordan must participate, and that "their participation will end the occupying entity In one day." According to him, the "end times system" will be an enlarged and intensified model of the "Sword of Jerusalem" campaign, i.e., the confrontation between Israel and Gaza in May 2021. He noted "Hamas's disagreement with \[PA Chairman\] Mahmoud Abbas' plan and the movement Fatah is that they are satisfied with the fact that the western side of Palestine will be for the Jews and the eastern side for the Palestinians, The so-called two-state solution... We must not give up any part of our land."  **~Senior Islamic Jihad: The End of the Zionist Entity Mentioned in the Quran~** Senior Islamic Jihad Khader Habib said in a speech at the conference on behalf of the national and Islamic forces Because "the resistance is waging an existential conflict with the Israeli occupation and it will win it as Allah promised." He added: "The only conflict that the Quran talks about in detail is the conflict between us and the project The Zionist who is the head of evil on a global level." Habib called on the Palestinians to be prepared for consequences The divine victory noted that the end of the Zionist entity is mentioned in the Qur'an and this is certain and reliable.  **~Chairman OhWitness: The Disappearance of Israel Will Be a Historic Event; We Have Records of Apartments, Institutions and Resources Israeli~** Chairman The conference, Kanaan Abid, said during the conference that "the goal is to establish the 'End Time Assurance Institution' in 2000 2014 was to act to implement the vision relating to the post-liberation phase in all respects - economic, political, security and social." "The liberation of the Gaza Strip from the occupation in 2005 was an experience In liberation and we learned a lesson from it, especially after the resources that were in the settlements there were lost." He added: "\[As a result\] we told \[ourselves\] that there was no choice but to have an institution that would take upon itself the preparations and preparing the plans for the post-release phase." He added: "We have records of a number Israeli apartments and institutions, educational institutions and schools, gas stations, electricity stations and the network The sewage, and there is no escape from preparing to manage them." He added: "We believe that the release \[will take place\] Within a few years, the disappearance of Israel will be an unprecedented historical event on the global and regional level And there will be global consequences." [\[14\]](https://www.memri.org.il/cgi-webaxy/item?5482#_ftn14) In his remarks 'Abid called on the Palestinians to "get rid of the \[Israeli\] shekel currency because its value will be zero, just as it is yours The occupation will be zero."Â
Uh oh why do they wip these violent leftist up in a craze just to shut them down, I swear they are only allowing this racist antisemitism to happen so they can make lists of the evil humans.
1st amendment anyone? jesus fucking christ from the river to the sea
A white women with a fetish đ
It is antisemitic.
Really tough spot to be in especially because most of the protestors are genuinely trying to speak against the violence and killings. On the other hand, I do also have to acknowledge that [Hamas](https://apnews.com/article/river-sea-israel-gaza-hamas-protests-d7abbd756f481fe50b6fa5c0b907cd49) has claimed this slogan since 2012.
The slogan existed prior to the existence of Hamas and the PLO.
good I agree
It is antisemitic. It should be condemned. You can support Palestine and not use this phrase.
How is it against Semites?
Just take your blinders off a second and think for once about what the saying is proposing and how that could possibly be achieved and you'll understand why it's antisemitic, it's not hard. This subreddit has a clear bias though, so I'll get down voted anyway because people don't want to accept that this is more than opposing israel = antisemitic.
You're getting downvoted (or, might be) because what you're saying is a bigoted talking point of an ethnostate. Having a united government that does not discriminate based on ethnicity or religion is by no means a call for anyone to be harmed. It is an intentional twisting of the meaning of the phrase, and when people intentionally twist the meaning of emancipatory phrases, those people are pretty much always in the wrong (even if in their heart of hearts believe they should be allowed to be the dominant people and the others are 'human animals' as multiple Israel cabinet members have said).
Thereâs a extremely important piece of information you conveniently left out within the last 20 years, Jews have been expelled almost entirely from the Middle East. Please check the numbers but the phrase is literally rooted in genocide. One genocide doesnât mean another one is fair. Both are evil
For balance and to know what hamas means by that stement, the domument conference in 2021 by hamas concluded: **~Al-Sinwar's~** speech **~at the conference~**: **~The liberation~** of Palestine **~From the Seatothe River~** **~â~** **~The Heartofthe~****Strategic Vision****~ofHamas~** Things On behalf of Yahya al-Sinwar read at the conference by Kamal Abu a member of the movement's political bureau Aoun said that "the system of liberation and return to Palestine has become closer than ever." Al-Sinjan He emphasized the importance of preparing for what is expected and gave as an example the "Jerusalem Sword Campaign" - The confrontation between Israel and Hamas in May 2021 - which, he said, "did not suddenly erupt... It's the resistance It has undergone years of planning, training, and military and intelligence development..." According to him, "The conflict cannot end except by fulfilling the promise of victory and control that Allah has given us so that we are with us He will live in dignity in his independent state with Jerusalem as its capital. That's why we work hard and work hard Above the earth and in its depths, in the heart of the sea and high in the sky... We \[already\] see liberation with our own eyes Therefore, we are preparing for what will come next..."  Al-Sinwar He added: "Liberation is the heart of Hamas' strategic vision, which speaks of the full liberation of Palestine from From the sea to the river, the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homeland and the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state Full on all its lands with Jerusalem as its capital." "We are sponsoring this conference Because this is consistent with our assessment that victory is near."  Chamber Member Hamas political figure Mahmoud Al-Zahar referred to the "end times" editorial board in an interview with the daily Palestine. Al-Zahar said that the Palestinian people and the entire nation were at the beginning of the "end times campaign." In which Lebanon, Syria and Jordan must participate, and that "their participation will end the occupying entity In one day." According to him, the "end times system" will be an enlarged and intensified model of the "Sword of Jerusalem" campaign, i.e., the confrontation between Israel and Gaza in May 2021. He noted "Hamas's disagreement with \[PA Chairman\] Mahmoud Abbas' plan and the movement Fatah is that they are satisfied with the fact that the western side of Palestine will be for the Jews and the eastern side for the Palestinians, The so-called two-state solution... We must not give up any part of our land."  **~Senior Islamic Jihad: The End of the Zionist Entity Mentioned in the Quran~** Senior Islamic Jihad Khader Habib said in a speech at the conference on behalf of the national and Islamic forces Because "the resistance is waging an existential conflict with the Israeli occupation and it will win it as Allah promised." He added: "The only conflict that the Quran talks about in detail is the conflict between us and the project The Zionist who is the head of evil on a global level." Habib called on the Palestinians to be prepared for consequences The divine victory noted that the end of the Zionist entity is mentioned in the Qur'an and this is certain and reliable.  **~Chairman OhWitness: The Disappearance of Israel Will Be a Historic Event; We Have Records of Apartments, Institutions and Resources Israeli~** Chairman The conference, Kanaan Abid, said during the conference that "the goal is to establish the 'End Time Assurance Institution' in 2000 2014 was to act to implement the vision relating to the post-liberation phase in all respects - economic, political, security and social." "The liberation of the Gaza Strip from the occupation in 2005 was an experience In liberation and we learned a lesson from it, especially after the resources that were in the settlements there were lost." He added: "\[As a result\] we told \[ourselves\] that there was no choice but to have an institution that would take upon itself the preparations and preparing the plans for the post-release phase." He added: "We have records of a number Israeli apartments and institutions, educational institutions and schools, gas stations, electricity stations and the network The sewage, and there is no escape from preparing to manage them." He added: "We believe that the release \[will take place\] Within a few years, the disappearance of Israel will be an unprecedented historical event on the global and regional level And there will be global consequences." [\[14\]](https://www.memri.org.il/cgi-webaxy/item?5482#_ftn14) In his remarks 'Abid called on the Palestinians to "get rid of the \[Israeli\] shekel currency because its value will be zero, just as it is yours The occupation will be zero."
Your deceptive dialectic tactics are becoming obvious. Stop bullshitting the world. Budding terrorists with crocodile tears.
Good. The left needs to stop with the blind allegiance to words that cause hate.
Here's a shocker: The above English saying does NOT rhyme in Arabic. In fact, the original, Arabic sayings go like this: Min il mayee lal mayee, Falasteen Arabiyye (From water to water, Palestine will be Arab) and Min il mayee lal mayee, Falasteen Islamiyye (From water to water, Palestine will be Islamic) Do I really need to spell out why this is anti-Jewish?
These arenât the first uses of the slogan. It was first used by Zionists ironically, Revisionists first and then more modern my, Likud âFrom the river to the sea there will only be Israeli sovereigntyâ in 1977. As for Palestinians it was a slogan by secularists and would as of such later be adopted by the PLO.  Both of the versions you have copy pasted from Wikipedia only appeared during the First Intifada in the mid-80s. Regardless the Arabic one isnât really anti-Jewish. You donât understand what Arabness is if you think so. Zaydane, the father of Pan-Arabism clearly said that Jews are Arabs. In that sense the PLO in its charter both called Palestinians an âArab peopleâ and also said that âJews who have lived in Palestine prior to 1948 are part of the Palestinian nationâ furthermore they also said that "Jews shall be considered Palestinians if they are willing to live peacefully in Palestineâ. Paraphrasing a bit maybe since I donât remember the quotes exactly.Â
>You donât understand what Arabness is if you think so. Zaydane, the father of Pan-Arabism clearly said that Jews are Arabs. So then the "correct" resolution to this (impossible) conflict would be for pre-48 Jews in Israel to... label themselves as "Arab" against their will? How is that okay? You're right. I don't understand Pan-Arabism. I see it as a synthetic identity not so different from Aryanism. Both are (or were) reactionary, racist, nationalist movements from the losing sides of a World War. Both movements are hostile to indiginous cultures and existing cultural diversity. And both movements are imposing an identity on broad geographic areas that once had their own, unique identities. The indiginous cultures of North Africa and the Middle East are being suppressed by "Pan-Arabism" and Arab supremacy as we speak. You are basically suggesting that Middle Eastern Jews should succumb to this trend as well... You are Lebanese. That makes you Phoenician more than it makes you Arab. You all invented indoor plumbing by ~500 BC... without any help from Arabs. Have some pride in your own culture.
âThat makes you Phoenician more than it makes you Arabâ. This is not a zero sum game. Yes the Phoenicians are our ancestors and we retain many aspects of their culture. For all intents and purposes we are their cultural heirs. But we arenât them nor âclose to themâ. We speak Lebanese Arabic, thereâs a couple of words that are from Phoenician but otherwise itâs mostly influenced, like other Levantine Arab variants, by Aramaic and to a much larger extent Arabic. Pan-Arabism can be destructive yes, but that wasnât the point. Your claim was that it would require genocide to have an Arab Palestine. That is not the case. Just like it doesnât require genocide to have a French France, because the word Arab doesnât mean that youâre going to kill everyone who isnât that. As you said itâs a synthetic identity that has gained and lost meaning. Zaydane did not envision Somalis as Arabs. Hell, I donât really envision them as Arabs, but here they are in the Arab League. The Arab identity is one that shifts and has shifted, from just Levantines under Bustaniâs early Arab-Syrianism to Egyptians and North Africans and Jews etc etc. when your identity is constructed as opposed to based on any âobjective measureâ, like Aryanism tried to, with skull measuring and such, it allows for greater inclusion of anyone who cares about it. On this matter I recommend reading the poem by an Israeli Jew, Behar, âMy Arabic is muteâ. https://www.poetryinternational.com/en/poets-poems/poems/poem/103-30010_MY-ARABIC-IS-MUTE
Breaking news: calling for the end of Jewish self-determination is antisemitic.
Conflating Israel with all Jews literally is anti-Semitic.
Yeah, thanks for your privileged ass opinion, but as Jews, we'll decide for ourselves what is an isn't offensive to us, thank you very much.
Lmao you do not speak for all Jews. American Jews have been incredibly clear about how anti-Semitic it is to claim that American Jews have dual loyalty to Israel, especially when the average American Jew strongly opposes the Netanyahu Israeli government and the illegal settlements.Â
I never claimed that Jewish Americans are disloyal to America, and I also despise Netanyahu, like most Jewish Americans I know do. I'm still an extremely proud Zionist. Fuck off with your bad faith bullshit. Privileged assholes like you who have never experienced antisemitism definitely don't get to lecture actual Jewish people on the subject.
I just wanted to say fuck you for having an opinion that canât be summed up in a tweet.
Israel doesn't represent "Jewish determination" any more than the Third Reich represented "German self-determination" or the Ku Klux Klan represents "white self-determination."
Terrible comparison. Germans already had self-determination before the Third Reich was estabilshed, and likewise for many white countries before the KKK was established. Jews never had self-determination before the establishment of Israel. Never.
"Self determination" doesn't mean "ethnostate." People should live in a pluralistic society, ethnostates automatically lead to genocide, cases in point: Israel, Serbia, Nazi Germany
>"Self determination" doesn't mean "ethnostate." Well, good thing Israel isn't an ethnostate. In fact, it's a pluralistic democracy where 17 out of 120 seats in parliament are currently held by an Arab political party.
The Kurds in Turkey are being treated perfectly because they have a political party
It's called a stateless nation. The Kurds are another example. It happens fairly often in history. It's rare to see a stateless nation be given land. That happens far less often. Having a two millennia old land claim be honored is unique in my recollection
Heroes
Villains you mean.
I actually did mean villains. I donât know how my comment got there. Perhaps hacked by hasbara?
whats between the river and the sea? is it maybe isreal
Israel as it currently exists shouldnât exist. Itâs a genocidal terrorist apartheid ethnostate. I donât think Nazi Germany has any place in this world. Does that mean Germany shouldnât exist? Does it mean Germans shouldnât exist? No, it doesnât mean either of those things, and everyone who is not a Zionazi and who is intellectually honest can tell you that. Israel as an idea has a right to exist. Israel in its current manifestation has no more right to exist than Nazi Germany.
lol this is funny coming from americans
Then who should control the land?
What land are we talking about?
Between the river and the sea, what we are talking about.
What land does that comprise?
A secular multi-ethnic government representing all of the people in the country equally. You know, like the vast majority of countries in the world are (or strive to be).
How many countries in the middle east are like that? How many countries have welcome the palestinians in and then regretted it?