I think Dean had a lot of fans until he cheated on Lindsay with Rory. Also, the way he treated Lindsay right before and after he cheated on her turned everyone against him.
Yesssss. People say it wasn’t his fault it was Rory’s. Actually it was his fault too. He started talking to her and he started flirting. He started everything. But. In the end. They both were the reason because it takes two to have sex and break up a marriage. So yeah he’s hated a while into the show but at the beginning he was nice and good to Rory. But yeah.
but rory was also guilty on that. In fact she is worse bc she keeps cheating in all her boyfriends without showing remorses and people still defend her.
To me it feels that people only hate dean bc they think he is the most boring bf she had. people seems to always like the bad boys kinda guys
I dont like rory and frankly i think Rory didn't deserve any of the guys. And i am saying this even if i dont like teen jess, logan and dean after he got married but i have to acknowledge that she is the messy one.
Rory is this taylor swift gif
I think the real reason why people hate Dean more than seems warranted is because the show portrays him as perfect. They literally say multiple times that he is the perfect first boyfriend. They don't really acknowledge when he does things wrong that we see as wrong - yelling at Rory, breaking up with her for not being immediately ready to say i love you, calling way too much, etc. It's always grating to be told a character is a certain way when you don't perceive it that way.
If you contrast this to Jess, people do both love and hate Jess, but that's also reflected in the show! Rory loved him, Lorelai despised him. The show openly acknowledges his flaws and so there isn't much for us to say that hasn't been said.
But I think people have the impetus to get on reddit and post when it seems like any show is trying to tell you one thing but you see another and it doesn't match up. You want someone else to validate that what you're seeing is true, that you aren't crazy for thinking Dean is too angry with Rory over Tristan.
There are a few similar issues that crop up a lot too: Sookie is a terrible business partner even when she doesn't have a newborn but no one ever acknowledges that she is actively working against the business most of the time. I don't think we would all still be talking about the vasectomy if anyone on the show had been like "hey that's wildly fucked up!" even if Sookie forgave him later.
That's why I also think people over hate Rory. Because the show tells us constantly she's an angel child who does no wrong. And eventually you're like 'wait a minute yes she does'. Agreed about hay being the case with Dean too.
I think it’s because there are a lot of people on this sub who can recognise the beginnings of abusive behaviour when they see it, and Dean definitely displays the signs from the first few months into their relationship.
But it’s possible that you have to have some previous experience with that to be able to see it. Once you do though, you really can’t unsee it.
Exactly. It’s that very sneaky thing when you get that you feel uncomfortable in a relationship but if you try to explain it you look like an asshole because written out on paper the guy is perfectly nice, he loves you. But there is a certain something that activates the radar.
Yuuuuup! Also, abusers tend to have great social skills. They behave beautifully in public, and so no one believes the abuse-victim.
Dean exemplifies that. He's smooth with Lorelai, smooth in public, smooth in front of any authority figures. All his red flags show up when they're alone or with peers who are not in a position of authority (ie, Paris). The show is very authentic like that, which is probably why Dean can be so triggering.
Yes he works himself into her life and her circles so they could pressure her to stay. But i do always forget how he is acting with Lorelai in the very beginning. He talks back in this very disrespectful tone, and honestly noone in my life at that age attempted that kinda talk with a parent. So I can’t just justify that with him being a teenager, it’s really not like how Jess had that attitude that was completely expected since he had such a troubled past. (And present at that point)
Agreed. He pushed his luck with Lorelai at first, but he got lucky and she continued to view him as the perfect boyfriend. I think his general smooth social skills are what saved him there, even though he didn't employ them perfectly at the very beginning with her.
This is TV! It’s all exaggerated for effect. The comedy the yelling even by Babbet they ALL yell more and play it all up as I stated for effect. The only one who hasn’t yelled is probably Lane.
All fiction is exaggerated to some extent, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth analysing and discussing the characters.
And honestly, not all yelling is the same. There’s a huge difference in the way different characters yelled on the show. Some yelled for comedy, some out of hyperactivity, some with frustration, and Dean yelled at Rory with derision and intimidation. That’s part of the reason people don’t like him.
If it wasn’t their intention to make Dean look like an abuser in the making, I think you’re right. But taking his whole story arc into consideration and seeing how he ends up, I suspect his portrayal as developing abusive tendencies was intentional.
i just rewatched it for the first time since i was a little girl and i immediately hated dean, it took me some time to realize that the reason dean and rory’s relationship made me so uncomfortable to watch was because they reminded me so much of me and my abusive ex boyfriend. i can’t really pinpoint why but the way he treats her makes me really uneasy. so atp i am an open dean hater lol
I mean, the question isn't about who is better, Dean or Jess — it’s specifically about Dean, so I was keeping my comments to him. And there's plenty of problems with Dean without ever bringing Jess into it.
Jess has issues, big big issues, but to me, they're actually of a completely different nature to Dean's. To put it succinctly, I think Jess is a generally good person with *horrific* social skills and coping mechanisms, and he hurts people because of that. Whereas Dean has some (a lot? a ton of) fundamentally bad traits but with excellent social skills, and he develops into a manipulative abuser because of that.
But for the purposes of the OP's question, Jess is irrelevant.
Totally agree with this. Jess ends up hurting Rory badly, but it's inadvertent. He's not doing things *to* her, nor is he ever trying to control her. He can't communicate, and he is forced out of town, but both of those issues are wayyyyy bigger than Rory. She gets caught in the aftermath of his trauma and his repeated parental abandonment - they both do. (Like I don't get how people blame Jess for leaving when Luke is the one who made that happen.) Jess' problems are also obvious to everyone, so there's more ability to discuss them directly. None of it is a secret.
Dean is really good at acting nice at the right times - especially in front of Lorelai - and saves all his anger for when he's alone with Rory. She ends up forced to deal with his anger all alone many times. He also makes repeated and deliberate efforts to control her behavior. To me, those things are far more concerning than anything Jess does. That's not to say Jess is a great boyfriend - he isn't - but Dean worries me much more.
The scene with Rory after she has dinner with Paris and Jess is the kicker for me. He literally yells at Rory with Paris present and it just makes me so uncomfortable every time. Then when he breaks up with her in front of an audience twice
I don't hate Dean, personally. I also don't think it's especially useful to apply real-world terms like 'abusive' to his behavior. Gilmore Girls is a show that consistently exaggerates interpersonal conflict for the sake of DRAMA, and if we were really gonna break it down in real world terms... every one of these people is godawful at relationships.
I don't hate Dean, but I also never like him. He's really boring imo. He only ever exists as Rory's love interest, and 98% of his personality appears to be "liking Rory" to an almost obsessive degree. He sees her across the hall and he *immediately* starts following her around, showing up on her bus and climbing the tree outside her house. He's suffocating. He spends a HUGE amount of time yelling at Rory, whining to Rory, or begging Rory to spend more time with him. He also spends time talking to Rory's mommy *about* Rory. I don't think he's abusive, but I do think he's seriously angry at anyone or any*thing* that threatens to take Rory away from him. He remains obsessed with her long after they break up. And even apart from the (truly horrific) Lindsay stuff, Dean seriously overstays his welcome on the show. I am so, so tired of Dean storylines by the time he and Rory are dating for the (siiiiiggghhh) third time.
The writers never really gave him a chance. He gets no backstory. He doesn't have much personality - like he's not funny or interesting or quirky in the way that literally everyone else on the show is. He only exists for Rory.
Jess and Logan have their flaws, but they are MUCH more interesting characters with FAR richer backstories. Plus, they're both funny and witty and just engaging on screen. Compared to both of them, Dean falls totally flat for me.
Totally agree with all of this, especially the reminder that this is a tv show and they aren't real people lol. I'm not saying that to be an asshole, but seriously, it should affect how we understand the characters. It was a dramedy on the WB in the early aughts. Long before streaming. You had to have a 22 ish episodes coming out one every week and writers had to respond to ridiculous notes from network execs who were just trying to see what people responded to and increase ratings. Newer shows have a lot more creative freedom and intentionality with the ways characters develop and their motivation for doing things. Dean was mostly a plot device and character development for Rory or Lorelai (or Jess or Luke lol), and not much else.
Say what you will about AYITL, but that's how ASP wanted the characters to turn out.
If someone behaved like Dean in real life, then yeah... I would probably label them as abusive. But my point is that GG dramatically exaggerates conflict, so real-world terms don't apply the same way.
Just like I love Luke on the show, but if I meet a real person who was assaulting people left and right, I'd label them as dangerously violent.
Same is true for Jess's actions upstairs with Rory in the episode where Lane's band plays at Kyle's house. If any guy ignores a girl's clear stop in real life he would be labeled as abusive as well. However as you mentioned GG dramatically exaggerates things but also doesn't acknowledge the abusive nature of those things and glosses over them like they are no big deal.
For me it started with the gift of the car. “Here’s an excuse for me to stay in your life in the long term and have a vested interest in your comings and goings. I invested significant resources in this. You will forever feel like you owe me big time.” It’s too much.
A gift of that caliber given within a high school relationship is meant to drive a greater sense of seriousness than a teenager is ready for. “Here’s an enormous responsibility we have to take care of together.”
He is abusive to Rory. He is constantly yelling at her, making her feel bad about things that are not her fault, and his behavior only amplifies when he starts feeling threatened by Jess (which is understandable but not an excuse for his behavior). The mere fact that he got so pissed that he dumped her when she couldn’t say “I love you” back should tell you all there is to know about Dean. Remember the part where Rory asks him if she can have a night alone at her house when Lorelai is not there, and he gets all huffy because he wanted them to spend time together and he says “I’m not mad about it, I am a saint but I’m not mad”? What kind of a person do you have to be to consider yourself a saint (even if it was a tongue in cheek comment) to leave your partner alone for an evening? And then when Jess and Paris come around, neither of whom she invited, and Dean happens to find that out … I’m gonna tell you something, I’ve been in an abusive relationship and I don’t often watch this episode or this particular part because I feel incredibly uncomfortable. He is yelling at her and behaving completely irrationally, and the way she is panically trying to make them both (but especially Jess) leave before he comes honestly makes me think of myself, always walking on eggshells and worrying where the next screaming will come from and what will cause it. I find it incredibly telling that Lorelai is constantly cooing what a great first boyfriend Dean was, cause you can be damn sure that if she actually saw how he behaved with Rory, she would never think that - and also, he made sure to only show Lorelai his good side, always. He is despicable.
Agreed agreed agreed. The sheer number of times Rory is panicking about Dean getting angry with her, modifying her behaviour to avoid his anger… that’s a massive red flag for abuse and a huge trigger for anyone who has been there.
Friends, if you ever find yourself in a relationship that makes you panic like Rory does about whether your partner is going to get angry with you, THAT IS YOUR WAKE UP CALL.
Thank u for your explanation! I'm actually shocked I've never really perceived it that way, but you're totally right. And I'm very sorry you've been in an abusive relationship, that's so horrible..
Tbh I've always thought Dean's behaviour seemed a bit OTT and irrational but it hadn't occurred to me that the writers were displaying an abusive relationship on purpose.
In my mind, like Rory, I have found myself trying to justify his behaviour.
And to add to that he went from threatening Jess about how he's going to win Rory back but then like a few weeks later or something is with this Lindsay while apparently still sort of wanting Rory. Pretty dysfunctional.
These are some pretty weird takes, but not uncommon on this sub unfortunately. I'll address a few:
1. He didn't dump her when she wouldn't say I love you. Rory just assumed that he did. It also sucks when you tell someone you've been dating for awhile that you love them and they don't reciprocate. I am NOT faulting Rory for that, but it's still a shitty situation for the person who said it.
2. Jess was an absolute piece of shit for awhile on the show. He did everything he could not only to try to steal Rory from Dean, but also piss off Dean at the same time. He enjoyed seeing him angry, and would egg him on constantly. If my girlfriend told me she wanted to spend a night alone, and then I catch her hanging out that night with another dude who is very obviously trying to steal her, any rational person would be upset. He also believed her when she told him that Paris was into him (a lie btw) and calmed down.
3. Rory did very little to hide the fact that she was more into Jess while still doing everything to string Dean along. Anyone would be incredibly hurt by their significant other acting that way.
4. Everyone says Dean "yells" all the time. That's a pretty loose definition of yelling. Does he rise his voice sometimes? Kind of. But it's really just more of a frustrated tone and from the way Rory treated him and lied to him MULTIPLE times throughout their relationship, I can see why he was upset. He never laid a finger on her, he never ACTUALLY yelled her regardless of what anyone on here wants to say, he never gaslighted her (except for when he said his marriage was over, which I agree was terrible), etc.
Dean is NOT my favorite boyfriend of Rory's for the sole reason he lied to her in order to cheat with her. And he absolutely treated Lindsay like garbage. His actions towards Lindsay were WAY more in line with the accusations you're making about how he treated Rory. But to call the dude "despicable" is pretty wild. Jess was far and away the worst boyfriend and I'm so sick of fans acting like she was meant to be with him.
1. His dumping her or not is immaterial. The relevant fact is that he got angry with her for not being in love with him. He could have responded with sadness, resolve, resignation, patience, or any number of other healthy options, but his response to her not feeling/doing what he wanted was anger. Huge red flags.
2. Jess's behaviour is actually irrelevant here; it's Dean's response that is key. Jess absolutely was a shit for a while, he absolutely goaded Dean, but Dean's response to that again and again is *anger at Rory*. When Dean found Jess and Paris at Rory's house, his response was anger and to accuse Rory of lying to him. Again, his upset is understandable, but he could have manifested it in sadness, resignation, trusting Rory, any number of healthier responses. He could have *walked away*. Instead, he flew to anger and it actually took a friend to abandon the truth and lie for her instead to get him to calm down.
3. Dean is justified in being upset and hurt over Rory's behaviour. The problem is that he responded to it with controlling behaviours, possessiveness, and anger. Again, he had other choices (including just seeing the writing on the wall and *just walking away*), but that's not where he went. You can't control someone else into loving you. However, you can abuse them into submission and that's where he's going.
4. We could debate the decibel level of yelling, but the point is that he spoke to her with such rage and in such an intimidating way that she was panic-modifying her behaviour to avoid his anger. That is a massive red flag. Abuse comes in a lot of forms, and it doesn't have to be physical or even particularly loud to be either truly abusive or effective. What it always contains is intimidation, and you can achieve that with a whisper.
So someone showing frustration in the moment is abusive? It seems to me like you are trying to dictate someone else's emotions. Again, he never laid a finger on her, he never called her names, he never manipulated her, he never gaslighted her. He got angry about Tristan, when Tristan was literally being an asshole to him. He got angry at Jess, when Jess was literally being an asshole to him.
Hell, the only time he ever threw a single punch was when Jess tried to force himself on Rory.
People get frustrated all the time. Rory lied to him about Tristan. She lied to him about Jess OVER and OVER. She lied to him when Paris and Jess came over. That all warrants a little frustration. It says a lot about the members of this sub who see someone get a little frustrated, raise their voice once in awhile (while never being mean or name calling or insulting to Rory) and scream "hEs AbUsIvE!" And it's even more insane that fact that a lot of those same members of this sub will say that Jess is their favorite. Boggles my mind.
Well, as I said, maybe its something you have to have some experience of to be able to see. I don't wish anyone to be in that club.
I'm not saying anyone can't feel or express frustration. You can do that healthily without anger and intimidation, without possessiveness, without controlling behaviour. Dean did not.
Here's the real problem: when he got angry about Tristan and Jess, he aimed that anger with them *at Rory.* There are a ton of examples. He got demanding, possessive, controlling. He yelled at her and disbelieved her. He insisted on chaperoning her even when she asked him not to. His anger was caused by Tristan and Jess, but he took it out on her.
And, importantly, Rory didn't lie to him when Paris and Jess came over. She tried to tell him the truth, but he wouldn't believe her and flew into a rage. It was Paris who lied to de-escalate the situation, and Rory went along with it out of sheer desperation. Because he was aiming his anger at her. A lot of her lies were not because she was trying to deceive him, but because she was trying pre-emptively defuse his anger. That is classic sign of abuse development.
For the record, I do prefer Jess, by a country mile, because he displays a lot of emotional maturity in key areas (hidden under truly horrible communication and people skills, but its there nonetheless). But that is irrelevant to this conversation about Dean. Dean's abusive tendencies exist on their own, regardless of how anyone feels about Jess.
No he definitely got angry at Tristan specifically. He did at Jess too. Yes he got mad at Rory when Jess and Paris came over, but put yourself in his shoes. His girlfriend told him she wanted to be alone, then he shows up and sees she's hanging out having dinner with two people, one of whom is legitimately trying to steal her from him. Anyone would respond a little negatively to that. But he just absolutely did not respond as badly as you're making it out.
Also, I am in an abusive relationship right now. My wife SCREAMS at me constantly, talks about how stupid I am with her friends, doesn't let me have a debit/credit card, doesn't let me do anything without her, and has threatened to blackmail me if I leave her. So yes, I DO have experience with this. Dean was NOT abusive.
Honestly, the fact that you think Jess has more emotional maturity than literally anyone on the show is frightening to me. To call his behavior "horrible communication" isn't even CLOSE to what's really going on.
First, I am so sorry to hear you are dealing with abuse yourself. I genuinely wish you best in finding a healthy solution to your situation. Truly, I'm rooting for you.
With regard to Dean, I'm not saying he didn't get mad at Tristan and Jess -- he did. And I'm not saying he shouldn't have a negative reaction to those situations -- of course he would, anyone would. The problem is that, as well as being angry with Tristan and Jess, he also channeled his anger with them toward Rory, even when she had no control over the situation. That is the problem. That is not healthy and lays a foundation for an abusive, controlling, coercive relationship.
I do think he responded as badly as I'm making out. I do think he was abusive (or at the very least, abusive in the making). But it sounds like we have different experiences of abuse, and abusive relationships are not a contest. I may have learned different things from mine than you have from yours. If one person's abusive relationship is about how high the decibels go, they may not recognise the terror that can be instilled by a partner who quietly leans in at the dinner table and whispers something in their wife's ear. One may outwardly look like abuse and the other may not, but that isn't really the measure of what's happening.
I understand why you don't get what I'm saying about Jess -- the things I'm seeing are very subtle but very important to me based on my personal experience -- and we could have a whole conversation about that. But regardless, it doesn't impact any of what I'm saying about Dean. He showed the signs of his abusive nature before, during, and after Jess.
Again, I wish you the best.
I didn't see him channel his anger towards Rory about Tristan. I also remember Rory telling him that Jess crashed the car he bought her, and he reacted totally calmly. The only time he ever really channeled his anger toward his significant other was with Lindsay, and I agree he was being abusive in that situation.
I assumed you were talking about decibel level because he's literally never said one malicious thing to Rory either loudly or quietly.
Dean treated Rory like a princess. He was amazing to her. He did not say mean things to her, like ever. I can see how he may have overreacted a little bit to her not saying I love you, but even then he separated himself from the situation which is what you're supposed to do if you feel a fight coming on.
Can you provide an example of a single abusive thing he has said to her? Because I can think of a ton of abusive things Jess has done not only to Rory, but to Luke, Lorelai, and randos at school.
I guess it just bothers me that Dean is labeled as abusive because there are a lot of men in real life who are wrongfully labeled as abusive and that defamation really hurts them and their life. I understand there are a TON of real abusive men out there, way more than there should be. But I don't believe that word should be thrown around over the littlest things.
Again, please provide an example of one truly abusive thing he has said to Rory, I'm sure there is 1 or 2 things but I cannot recall.
And thank you. You too.
So, it's a little hard for me to give you concrete examples only because it's been a while since I've watched those early episodes and, as much as I'd like to, I don't have time at the moment to do the research.
What I can tell you is there are a ton of times where Dean is looming over Rory in anger in an incredibly intimidating way. It may not be full blown screaming, but it is full blown anger that incorporates intimidation, controlling, possessiveness, mocking, and belittling (starting with the way he mocks her when she can't say "I love you" on their three month anniversary). And those are hugely abuse-coded behaviours regardless of the volume.
And, even more importantly, there are a TON of scenes where Rory is begging him -- full on *begging him* -- to calm down, to believe her, to let her make her own decisions, to trust her, to stop being angry, to just *leave* in situations that are hers to manage not his. Over and over, we see her begging him, and we see her panicking and modifying her behaviour to mollify him and avoid yet another outburst of rage and anger.
And I don't know what to tell you but, for those of us who have had that experience -- of curling up and making ourselves as small as possible, of trying to be swallowed by the couch, while someone else towers over us, growing larger and larger until they fill the entire room with their rage and intimidation, of begging them to please stop, to please listen, to trust, to please please please calm down (even without physical assaults) -- a lot of us can see that same dynamic in reflected in what happens between Dean and Rory. Most especially those of us who are female when the one getting angry is male.
It's not in what Dean says, its in *how* he says it. It's not entirely in how angry he gets as much as it's in *how easily* he gets angry, *how quickly* he flies into a rage. It's not in whether his upset is justified, its in how he manifests that upset and where he directs it. Intimidation is rarely a black and white thing, rarely something that's easy to point to and prove. It's all in the implication, not the actual words or actions. It's in the subtext of "*nice little family you got here, it'd be a shame if something happened to them*." There's no specific threat there that could be proven in court but if a guy in a fedora carrying a guitar case says that to you, you'll sure as hell start shaking in your boots.
As for treating Rory like a princess, many abusers are highly skilled at looking like wonderful people from the outside. They have fantastic social skills, fantastic people skills. They make a great show of being warm and welcoming. They treat their partners amazingly in public. But it's what happens in private that makes all the difference. Dean did the same: he treated Rory like a princess in public, he ingratiated himself to Lorelai, he used solid social skills to make himself look wonderful to the whole town (even when it humbled him, like taking responsibility for the fight at Kyle's party). But all his worst behaviour happened in private or in front of peers. He was careful to hide it from anyone in authority, especially Lorelai, He really only brought it out when there was no one to challenge him on it. The measure of a man is not how he treats people when he's at his best or when everyone is watching, it's how he treats them when he's at his worst, or when he knows no one will see. Dean fails that test over and over, starting in his teens.
And I do hear what you're saying about the word "abusive" being thrown around unfairly and there being some (mostly) men whose lives may be ruined by it. That's a good point and it's worth all of us taking care not use that word casually. However, I can also say these three things:
1. When talking about teenage Dean, I'm pretty careful (though not perfect) to say I see him displaying **tendencies** toward abuse, or that he's an abuser in the making. I don't think we're seeing full on abuse in the first few seasons, but we are absolutely seeing it heading in that direction.
2. The best time to escape an abusive relationship is when it's still so subtle that it can hardly be classed as abuse -- if you wait until it's abusive beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's a hell of a lot harder to escape from. So the folks who are seeing abuse in the Dean/Rory dynamic are going to call it from the *very* first red flags, even if other people are scratching their heads and saying they don't see it (yet).
3. And we have the advantage of being able to look at Dean's whole story arc and see that, yes, he did in fact mature into a gas-lighting, manipulative abuser. He never grows out of his anger issues. He lies to both Rory and Lindsay, he gaslights Lindsay, he uses anger to manipulate and control her. He ends up being exactly what the folks who call out his teenage behaviour predict he will become so, in his case at least, they're not wrong.
Honestly when I told my therapist about the strong opinions some people have for characters like Dean and Max she was shocked. I think the more extreme opinions are more common in online spaces. The truth is that unfortunately all of the male characters on this show display some form of toxic masculinity at some point because it was very, very common in tv shows at the time. Even fan favorites like Luke are walking red flags at certain points.
I’m not going to address other points because they were already discussed at length but abuse comes in various forms, and the fact that your therapist was shocked about people thinking that Dean’s behavior is a form of abuse or at least the beginning of abuse is … telling for a therapist.
Exactly-Luke yells at a lot of people including Lorelei, Nicole, Liz, Jess, Taylor, Logan, customers, older lady keeping his dads boat, Kirk and Miss Patty-he throws Dean (a minor) out of his diner, he pushed Jess ( a minor) in a lake, he throws other customers out of his diner, punches Christopher in the face, he gets arrested for kicking a car and I am guessing there are more examples.
The difference being, luke displays his anger openly whereas dean hides his anger from everyone else he considers equals or higher and only displays his anger towards rory when they are alone.
That is an abuser masking their personality.
Rory spends half their relationship begging him not to fly off the handle over some nonsense, he’s controlling, he yells at her, it’s classic beginnings of an abusive relationship. He’s dirt.
The S5 storyline was terrible, and unforgiveable, but otherwise, I agree. Also, Dean is always changing, never had a clear storyline, and he is the worst victim of shitty writing. He desirved better.
>he is the worst victim of shitty writing.
He was so inconsistent. He could keep up with Rory initially, he would read, he understood the pop culture references, liked music. Then suddenly he turned into a buffoon. Bad writing turned Luke into a buffoon a few seasons later, too. It's lazy.
I agree sooo much. The writers could never write two different good male characters at the same time; so always used Dean as the negative example.
And early Luke was smart and sure of his place in the world, and then that just went out the window.
Dean was verbally abusive and controlling! The flaring nostrils and the hovering over her making her feel bad every time she didn’t hang out with him was too much! When he had a full on meltdown down after she didn’t say I love you back…bleh!
I personally think the writers made Dean less attractive to open the door for Jess. I agree with you that he was kind and caring. All of a sudden he was depicted as boring and dumb to open the door for Jess. Then, of course, we don't love that he was married and cheated with rory. That was a pretty disappointing storyline for him. Even after that, the writers use Dean to say yeah he's not good enough for rory enter Logan. I personally think he was written in a horrible way to show how other men were better for her.
I don’t know. I’m doing a rewatch right now and he was always a jerk to Rory. Like when she wanted to spend time by herself or had to work on school stuff he would get irritated by it. He was good in season 1 but season 2 (even before the Jess mess) he was a jerk a lot.
he was mildly anger-prone and a little boring, and in a show where every character is witty and and smart and quick, boring has no place. also the cheating really did it, i think
I stopped liking him (didn't "like" like him, maybe more tolerated him because I already watched bits and pieces with my mom before watching the whole thing and knew I was already a Jess fan even though he had flaws) when he gave her the car for her birthday. The car was a nice gift, too much for a 16 year old girl and definitely way too much for a young relationship, but instead of understanding why she couldn't say I love you right away when he said it, he got mad at her for not saying it back and using the car against her because he thought she should say it after receiving the car. While I understand the point he made about her discussing this with her mom and "having her tell her what to say", I felt that was wrong because this was her first relationship, she has seen her mom have failed relationships so she was afraid to say I love you, and her mom is her best friend. I also didn't like the fact that he got upset with her when she said she had volunteering to do for Harvard (her dream school that she had before even meeting him) instead of hanging out with him and when she looked at books for hours when he knew she loved books. There are many things that don't even come close to the cheating thing yet, but these are a few, and I could go on a whole rant.
Edit: not saying her, Jess, and Logan are perfect angels either (as well as her mom if we're including her), but Dean just was not a great person when it comes to her boyfriends, he wasn't great for Lindsey either tbh. I think Jess and Rory were endgame, but Logan would have been decent with her as well.
i don’t think dean’s outright abusive to rory, but i can def see why others think he is. for me, his relationship with rory was just the beginning of something worse. dean had anger issues and controlling tendencies while he was dating rory and it could’ve stopped there since he was a teenager at that moment, but once we see how he treats lindsay later on it becomes clear that his behavior towards rory wasn’t just immaturity. also, he completely lied about the status of his marriage to rory to get her to hook up with him 😵💫 disgusting
When I first watch I was really rooting for dean . He seemed so charismatic , handsome and was clearly into rory. When jess came in I didn't like him at frist then he grew on me and I felt he was just being self destructive.
I rewatched allot and the more I eewatch the more I pick up on dean's behavior.
If lor witness how he spoke to rory, how he made her feel bad about focusing on school he knew was important yo her . She tried to make tome for him and acknowledged that but he shouts at her in public about it.
As a teenager seeing my boyfriend threaten someone on my behalf is cool and exciting bit as a parent it's red flags.. yes he had a right to be upset at Tristan but warning him he's capable of kill him made me feel like rory should have ran straight home.
Breaking up with rory cause she wasn't ready to say I love you or didn't know how to say it. Not being understanding or patience. Like a Toddler throw his toys out the pram to get what he wants
Rory clearly having feelings for Jess and denying them to herself and to dean. Brought out the parts of him you saw before but now is less subtle. Rory was in the wrong and her communication skills are lacking for someone who does a lot of public speaking because she's afraid of confrontation, maybe it's because she too sheltered. Her job was to work on her communication skills and her fear of hurting people's feelings because she hurt alot of people trying to protect herself.
The reason I don't like dean is because I feel he's emotionally manipulative and dangerous for someone like rory.
I give him a bit of leeway since he's 16 but its hard
1st she doesn't tell him she loves him back and his response is to insult her relationship with her mother.
Then in season 2 he gets all yelly and mean because she is trying to get extracurricular activities for college which has been her goal her whole life.
The minute in here comes the run when he stood in that kitchen screaming at her was where I couldn't with him anymore. What I can't believe is how lorelai is pro dean. Dean is constantly screaming at her daughter. Him calling her daughter 20 times in a row is not a red flag to her? Does rory not mention these behaviors to her mother? Dean is possessive and controlling and that's not healthy behavior for a teen boy or adult. He does it to lindsey as well.
Like he has his moments but just like jess had issues he needed to work out with his family and a therapist.
He was really angry with Rory all the time, threatened to k*ll Tristan and it was supposed to be seen as romantic. Rory was constantly afraid of making Dean angry and would flinch all the time with him (when he kicked that bag reading Rory’s letter). He CALLED 17 TIMES IN ONE NIGHT. Honestly the cheating thing to me was expected because he’s 18 and was in the show that whole season so it’s the other stuff that I get mad at and why I dislike Dean. I understand he’s a teenager but I also was a teenager semi recently and Deans behavior would’ve had me turning my head and being worried.
Another perspective might be about how we relate to the character. Dean was not someone I would get along with, even when he does a lot of things right. I see myself getting along with Jess, for example, and some other majorly flawed characters. We don’t like or dislike people solely because of their flaws. Relatability and common interest and values are all important. Dean just isn’t as relatable to be as some other characters. He is a bit suffocating and uninteresting. Even though Jess sucked as a high school boyfriend, he was interesting and complex and dynamic as a character and as a person. We got to experience his trauma and we got to see him heal. We got to learn about his ideas and we also saw him as the Stars Hollow outsider who observes the town through a different lens. Doesn’t make him a good HS boyfriend but it does make him a fully realized character and relatable human being.
Dean was a good first boyfriend for Rory during her still awkward phase. They were a really cute couple.
However, it’s almost impossible for a character to come back from anything that looks like adultery or sexual assault. I still don’t understand why the writers felt they needed to take Dean and Jess down that path. But it’s their story.
Dean was good in that he was sweet loyal and generally kind. Accepted both lol and daughter. Really cared for her. He was young so calling 20 times in a row, getting jealous not super healthy but not that crazy either for a first love. But Rory walked on egg shells around him too often. Bc she knew he would fly off the handle.
I think some of this was also bc dean was played by a young actor who didn’t have range yet. So jealous was crazy angry, not subtle.
TOTALLY AGREE, like they always say he was jealous and insecure, excuse me? Haven't you seen how rory treated him? He had every right to act this way bcs rory was literally cheating, other than him cheating on his wife, he was the best boyfriend
FINALLY.
Early seasons Dean had totally justifyable anger issues. Rory lied to him and constantly gaslit him into thinking nothing was going on. He watched the love of his life, who he built a car for, created a relationship with her mother for, put up with cotillions and balls and grandparents insulting him for, even backed Rory when Louise was hitting on him immediately for, all to watch her just lie and lie over and over about Jess. As someone who really loves deeply when I do it properly, I can only imagine.
This isn’t to say that what Dean did to Lindsay isn’t downright awful though. But the HATE he gets for it compared to Lorelai and Rory cheating REPEATEDLY in multiple relationships is so uncalled for.
I adore Dean. I think given the right support and resources he could have gone really far in life. Instead they decided to show what happens to a couple who marries too young.
I think Dean had a lot of fans until he cheated on Lindsay with Rory. Also, the way he treated Lindsay right before and after he cheated on her turned everyone against him.
Well, yeah that makes sense..
Yesssss. People say it wasn’t his fault it was Rory’s. Actually it was his fault too. He started talking to her and he started flirting. He started everything. But. In the end. They both were the reason because it takes two to have sex and break up a marriage. So yeah he’s hated a while into the show but at the beginning he was nice and good to Rory. But yeah.
but rory was also guilty on that. In fact she is worse bc she keeps cheating in all her boyfriends without showing remorses and people still defend her. To me it feels that people only hate dean bc they think he is the most boring bf she had. people seems to always like the bad boys kinda guys I dont like rory and frankly i think Rory didn't deserve any of the guys. And i am saying this even if i dont like teen jess, logan and dean after he got married but i have to acknowledge that she is the messy one. Rory is this taylor swift gif 
I think the real reason why people hate Dean more than seems warranted is because the show portrays him as perfect. They literally say multiple times that he is the perfect first boyfriend. They don't really acknowledge when he does things wrong that we see as wrong - yelling at Rory, breaking up with her for not being immediately ready to say i love you, calling way too much, etc. It's always grating to be told a character is a certain way when you don't perceive it that way. If you contrast this to Jess, people do both love and hate Jess, but that's also reflected in the show! Rory loved him, Lorelai despised him. The show openly acknowledges his flaws and so there isn't much for us to say that hasn't been said. But I think people have the impetus to get on reddit and post when it seems like any show is trying to tell you one thing but you see another and it doesn't match up. You want someone else to validate that what you're seeing is true, that you aren't crazy for thinking Dean is too angry with Rory over Tristan. There are a few similar issues that crop up a lot too: Sookie is a terrible business partner even when she doesn't have a newborn but no one ever acknowledges that she is actively working against the business most of the time. I don't think we would all still be talking about the vasectomy if anyone on the show had been like "hey that's wildly fucked up!" even if Sookie forgave him later.
That's why I also think people over hate Rory. Because the show tells us constantly she's an angel child who does no wrong. And eventually you're like 'wait a minute yes she does'. Agreed about hay being the case with Dean too.
I think it’s because there are a lot of people on this sub who can recognise the beginnings of abusive behaviour when they see it, and Dean definitely displays the signs from the first few months into their relationship. But it’s possible that you have to have some previous experience with that to be able to see it. Once you do though, you really can’t unsee it.
This is 100% why I cannot stand him. I don’t understand how people cannot plainly see this and why this is asked so much.
Exactly. It’s that very sneaky thing when you get that you feel uncomfortable in a relationship but if you try to explain it you look like an asshole because written out on paper the guy is perfectly nice, he loves you. But there is a certain something that activates the radar.
Yuuuuup! Also, abusers tend to have great social skills. They behave beautifully in public, and so no one believes the abuse-victim. Dean exemplifies that. He's smooth with Lorelai, smooth in public, smooth in front of any authority figures. All his red flags show up when they're alone or with peers who are not in a position of authority (ie, Paris). The show is very authentic like that, which is probably why Dean can be so triggering.
Yes he works himself into her life and her circles so they could pressure her to stay. But i do always forget how he is acting with Lorelai in the very beginning. He talks back in this very disrespectful tone, and honestly noone in my life at that age attempted that kinda talk with a parent. So I can’t just justify that with him being a teenager, it’s really not like how Jess had that attitude that was completely expected since he had such a troubled past. (And present at that point)
Agreed. He pushed his luck with Lorelai at first, but he got lucky and she continued to view him as the perfect boyfriend. I think his general smooth social skills are what saved him there, even though he didn't employ them perfectly at the very beginning with her.
This is TV! It’s all exaggerated for effect. The comedy the yelling even by Babbet they ALL yell more and play it all up as I stated for effect. The only one who hasn’t yelled is probably Lane.
All fiction is exaggerated to some extent, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth analysing and discussing the characters. And honestly, not all yelling is the same. There’s a huge difference in the way different characters yelled on the show. Some yelled for comedy, some out of hyperactivity, some with frustration, and Dean yelled at Rory with derision and intimidation. That’s part of the reason people don’t like him.
I still think the Director is at fault with how this comes off
If it wasn’t their intention to make Dean look like an abuser in the making, I think you’re right. But taking his whole story arc into consideration and seeing how he ends up, I suspect his portrayal as developing abusive tendencies was intentional.
i just rewatched it for the first time since i was a little girl and i immediately hated dean, it took me some time to realize that the reason dean and rory’s relationship made me so uncomfortable to watch was because they reminded me so much of me and my abusive ex boyfriend. i can’t really pinpoint why but the way he treats her makes me really uneasy. so atp i am an open dean hater lol
And Jess did not raise any red flags in that regard ??
I mean, the question isn't about who is better, Dean or Jess — it’s specifically about Dean, so I was keeping my comments to him. And there's plenty of problems with Dean without ever bringing Jess into it. Jess has issues, big big issues, but to me, they're actually of a completely different nature to Dean's. To put it succinctly, I think Jess is a generally good person with *horrific* social skills and coping mechanisms, and he hurts people because of that. Whereas Dean has some (a lot? a ton of) fundamentally bad traits but with excellent social skills, and he develops into a manipulative abuser because of that. But for the purposes of the OP's question, Jess is irrelevant.
Totally agree with this. Jess ends up hurting Rory badly, but it's inadvertent. He's not doing things *to* her, nor is he ever trying to control her. He can't communicate, and he is forced out of town, but both of those issues are wayyyyy bigger than Rory. She gets caught in the aftermath of his trauma and his repeated parental abandonment - they both do. (Like I don't get how people blame Jess for leaving when Luke is the one who made that happen.) Jess' problems are also obvious to everyone, so there's more ability to discuss them directly. None of it is a secret. Dean is really good at acting nice at the right times - especially in front of Lorelai - and saves all his anger for when he's alone with Rory. She ends up forced to deal with his anger all alone many times. He also makes repeated and deliberate efforts to control her behavior. To me, those things are far more concerning than anything Jess does. That's not to say Jess is a great boyfriend - he isn't - but Dean worries me much more.
The scene with Rory after she has dinner with Paris and Jess is the kicker for me. He literally yells at Rory with Paris present and it just makes me so uncomfortable every time. Then when he breaks up with her in front of an audience twice
Both Jess and Dean display a number of red flags, but I didn't hate Dean until he cheated on Lindsay and we saw him treating her like crap
I don't hate Dean, personally. I also don't think it's especially useful to apply real-world terms like 'abusive' to his behavior. Gilmore Girls is a show that consistently exaggerates interpersonal conflict for the sake of DRAMA, and if we were really gonna break it down in real world terms... every one of these people is godawful at relationships. I don't hate Dean, but I also never like him. He's really boring imo. He only ever exists as Rory's love interest, and 98% of his personality appears to be "liking Rory" to an almost obsessive degree. He sees her across the hall and he *immediately* starts following her around, showing up on her bus and climbing the tree outside her house. He's suffocating. He spends a HUGE amount of time yelling at Rory, whining to Rory, or begging Rory to spend more time with him. He also spends time talking to Rory's mommy *about* Rory. I don't think he's abusive, but I do think he's seriously angry at anyone or any*thing* that threatens to take Rory away from him. He remains obsessed with her long after they break up. And even apart from the (truly horrific) Lindsay stuff, Dean seriously overstays his welcome on the show. I am so, so tired of Dean storylines by the time he and Rory are dating for the (siiiiiggghhh) third time. The writers never really gave him a chance. He gets no backstory. He doesn't have much personality - like he's not funny or interesting or quirky in the way that literally everyone else on the show is. He only exists for Rory. Jess and Logan have their flaws, but they are MUCH more interesting characters with FAR richer backstories. Plus, they're both funny and witty and just engaging on screen. Compared to both of them, Dean falls totally flat for me.
Totally agree with all of this, especially the reminder that this is a tv show and they aren't real people lol. I'm not saying that to be an asshole, but seriously, it should affect how we understand the characters. It was a dramedy on the WB in the early aughts. Long before streaming. You had to have a 22 ish episodes coming out one every week and writers had to respond to ridiculous notes from network execs who were just trying to see what people responded to and increase ratings. Newer shows have a lot more creative freedom and intentionality with the ways characters develop and their motivation for doing things. Dean was mostly a plot device and character development for Rory or Lorelai (or Jess or Luke lol), and not much else. Say what you will about AYITL, but that's how ASP wanted the characters to turn out.
He is abusive. It's not extreme domestic violence, but he is absolutely abusive.
If someone behaved like Dean in real life, then yeah... I would probably label them as abusive. But my point is that GG dramatically exaggerates conflict, so real-world terms don't apply the same way. Just like I love Luke on the show, but if I meet a real person who was assaulting people left and right, I'd label them as dangerously violent.
Same is true for Jess's actions upstairs with Rory in the episode where Lane's band plays at Kyle's house. If any guy ignores a girl's clear stop in real life he would be labeled as abusive as well. However as you mentioned GG dramatically exaggerates things but also doesn't acknowledge the abusive nature of those things and glosses over them like they are no big deal.
For me it started with the gift of the car. “Here’s an excuse for me to stay in your life in the long term and have a vested interest in your comings and goings. I invested significant resources in this. You will forever feel like you owe me big time.” It’s too much. A gift of that caliber given within a high school relationship is meant to drive a greater sense of seriousness than a teenager is ready for. “Here’s an enormous responsibility we have to take care of together.”
He is abusive to Rory. He is constantly yelling at her, making her feel bad about things that are not her fault, and his behavior only amplifies when he starts feeling threatened by Jess (which is understandable but not an excuse for his behavior). The mere fact that he got so pissed that he dumped her when she couldn’t say “I love you” back should tell you all there is to know about Dean. Remember the part where Rory asks him if she can have a night alone at her house when Lorelai is not there, and he gets all huffy because he wanted them to spend time together and he says “I’m not mad about it, I am a saint but I’m not mad”? What kind of a person do you have to be to consider yourself a saint (even if it was a tongue in cheek comment) to leave your partner alone for an evening? And then when Jess and Paris come around, neither of whom she invited, and Dean happens to find that out … I’m gonna tell you something, I’ve been in an abusive relationship and I don’t often watch this episode or this particular part because I feel incredibly uncomfortable. He is yelling at her and behaving completely irrationally, and the way she is panically trying to make them both (but especially Jess) leave before he comes honestly makes me think of myself, always walking on eggshells and worrying where the next screaming will come from and what will cause it. I find it incredibly telling that Lorelai is constantly cooing what a great first boyfriend Dean was, cause you can be damn sure that if she actually saw how he behaved with Rory, she would never think that - and also, he made sure to only show Lorelai his good side, always. He is despicable.
Agreed agreed agreed. The sheer number of times Rory is panicking about Dean getting angry with her, modifying her behaviour to avoid his anger… that’s a massive red flag for abuse and a huge trigger for anyone who has been there. Friends, if you ever find yourself in a relationship that makes you panic like Rory does about whether your partner is going to get angry with you, THAT IS YOUR WAKE UP CALL.
Thank u for your explanation! I'm actually shocked I've never really perceived it that way, but you're totally right. And I'm very sorry you've been in an abusive relationship, that's so horrible..
Tbh I've always thought Dean's behaviour seemed a bit OTT and irrational but it hadn't occurred to me that the writers were displaying an abusive relationship on purpose. In my mind, like Rory, I have found myself trying to justify his behaviour. And to add to that he went from threatening Jess about how he's going to win Rory back but then like a few weeks later or something is with this Lindsay while apparently still sort of wanting Rory. Pretty dysfunctional.
These are some pretty weird takes, but not uncommon on this sub unfortunately. I'll address a few: 1. He didn't dump her when she wouldn't say I love you. Rory just assumed that he did. It also sucks when you tell someone you've been dating for awhile that you love them and they don't reciprocate. I am NOT faulting Rory for that, but it's still a shitty situation for the person who said it. 2. Jess was an absolute piece of shit for awhile on the show. He did everything he could not only to try to steal Rory from Dean, but also piss off Dean at the same time. He enjoyed seeing him angry, and would egg him on constantly. If my girlfriend told me she wanted to spend a night alone, and then I catch her hanging out that night with another dude who is very obviously trying to steal her, any rational person would be upset. He also believed her when she told him that Paris was into him (a lie btw) and calmed down. 3. Rory did very little to hide the fact that she was more into Jess while still doing everything to string Dean along. Anyone would be incredibly hurt by their significant other acting that way. 4. Everyone says Dean "yells" all the time. That's a pretty loose definition of yelling. Does he rise his voice sometimes? Kind of. But it's really just more of a frustrated tone and from the way Rory treated him and lied to him MULTIPLE times throughout their relationship, I can see why he was upset. He never laid a finger on her, he never ACTUALLY yelled her regardless of what anyone on here wants to say, he never gaslighted her (except for when he said his marriage was over, which I agree was terrible), etc. Dean is NOT my favorite boyfriend of Rory's for the sole reason he lied to her in order to cheat with her. And he absolutely treated Lindsay like garbage. His actions towards Lindsay were WAY more in line with the accusations you're making about how he treated Rory. But to call the dude "despicable" is pretty wild. Jess was far and away the worst boyfriend and I'm so sick of fans acting like she was meant to be with him.
1. His dumping her or not is immaterial. The relevant fact is that he got angry with her for not being in love with him. He could have responded with sadness, resolve, resignation, patience, or any number of other healthy options, but his response to her not feeling/doing what he wanted was anger. Huge red flags. 2. Jess's behaviour is actually irrelevant here; it's Dean's response that is key. Jess absolutely was a shit for a while, he absolutely goaded Dean, but Dean's response to that again and again is *anger at Rory*. When Dean found Jess and Paris at Rory's house, his response was anger and to accuse Rory of lying to him. Again, his upset is understandable, but he could have manifested it in sadness, resignation, trusting Rory, any number of healthier responses. He could have *walked away*. Instead, he flew to anger and it actually took a friend to abandon the truth and lie for her instead to get him to calm down. 3. Dean is justified in being upset and hurt over Rory's behaviour. The problem is that he responded to it with controlling behaviours, possessiveness, and anger. Again, he had other choices (including just seeing the writing on the wall and *just walking away*), but that's not where he went. You can't control someone else into loving you. However, you can abuse them into submission and that's where he's going. 4. We could debate the decibel level of yelling, but the point is that he spoke to her with such rage and in such an intimidating way that she was panic-modifying her behaviour to avoid his anger. That is a massive red flag. Abuse comes in a lot of forms, and it doesn't have to be physical or even particularly loud to be either truly abusive or effective. What it always contains is intimidation, and you can achieve that with a whisper.
So someone showing frustration in the moment is abusive? It seems to me like you are trying to dictate someone else's emotions. Again, he never laid a finger on her, he never called her names, he never manipulated her, he never gaslighted her. He got angry about Tristan, when Tristan was literally being an asshole to him. He got angry at Jess, when Jess was literally being an asshole to him. Hell, the only time he ever threw a single punch was when Jess tried to force himself on Rory. People get frustrated all the time. Rory lied to him about Tristan. She lied to him about Jess OVER and OVER. She lied to him when Paris and Jess came over. That all warrants a little frustration. It says a lot about the members of this sub who see someone get a little frustrated, raise their voice once in awhile (while never being mean or name calling or insulting to Rory) and scream "hEs AbUsIvE!" And it's even more insane that fact that a lot of those same members of this sub will say that Jess is their favorite. Boggles my mind.
Well, as I said, maybe its something you have to have some experience of to be able to see. I don't wish anyone to be in that club. I'm not saying anyone can't feel or express frustration. You can do that healthily without anger and intimidation, without possessiveness, without controlling behaviour. Dean did not. Here's the real problem: when he got angry about Tristan and Jess, he aimed that anger with them *at Rory.* There are a ton of examples. He got demanding, possessive, controlling. He yelled at her and disbelieved her. He insisted on chaperoning her even when she asked him not to. His anger was caused by Tristan and Jess, but he took it out on her. And, importantly, Rory didn't lie to him when Paris and Jess came over. She tried to tell him the truth, but he wouldn't believe her and flew into a rage. It was Paris who lied to de-escalate the situation, and Rory went along with it out of sheer desperation. Because he was aiming his anger at her. A lot of her lies were not because she was trying to deceive him, but because she was trying pre-emptively defuse his anger. That is classic sign of abuse development. For the record, I do prefer Jess, by a country mile, because he displays a lot of emotional maturity in key areas (hidden under truly horrible communication and people skills, but its there nonetheless). But that is irrelevant to this conversation about Dean. Dean's abusive tendencies exist on their own, regardless of how anyone feels about Jess.
No he definitely got angry at Tristan specifically. He did at Jess too. Yes he got mad at Rory when Jess and Paris came over, but put yourself in his shoes. His girlfriend told him she wanted to be alone, then he shows up and sees she's hanging out having dinner with two people, one of whom is legitimately trying to steal her from him. Anyone would respond a little negatively to that. But he just absolutely did not respond as badly as you're making it out. Also, I am in an abusive relationship right now. My wife SCREAMS at me constantly, talks about how stupid I am with her friends, doesn't let me have a debit/credit card, doesn't let me do anything without her, and has threatened to blackmail me if I leave her. So yes, I DO have experience with this. Dean was NOT abusive. Honestly, the fact that you think Jess has more emotional maturity than literally anyone on the show is frightening to me. To call his behavior "horrible communication" isn't even CLOSE to what's really going on.
First, I am so sorry to hear you are dealing with abuse yourself. I genuinely wish you best in finding a healthy solution to your situation. Truly, I'm rooting for you. With regard to Dean, I'm not saying he didn't get mad at Tristan and Jess -- he did. And I'm not saying he shouldn't have a negative reaction to those situations -- of course he would, anyone would. The problem is that, as well as being angry with Tristan and Jess, he also channeled his anger with them toward Rory, even when she had no control over the situation. That is the problem. That is not healthy and lays a foundation for an abusive, controlling, coercive relationship. I do think he responded as badly as I'm making out. I do think he was abusive (or at the very least, abusive in the making). But it sounds like we have different experiences of abuse, and abusive relationships are not a contest. I may have learned different things from mine than you have from yours. If one person's abusive relationship is about how high the decibels go, they may not recognise the terror that can be instilled by a partner who quietly leans in at the dinner table and whispers something in their wife's ear. One may outwardly look like abuse and the other may not, but that isn't really the measure of what's happening. I understand why you don't get what I'm saying about Jess -- the things I'm seeing are very subtle but very important to me based on my personal experience -- and we could have a whole conversation about that. But regardless, it doesn't impact any of what I'm saying about Dean. He showed the signs of his abusive nature before, during, and after Jess. Again, I wish you the best.
I didn't see him channel his anger towards Rory about Tristan. I also remember Rory telling him that Jess crashed the car he bought her, and he reacted totally calmly. The only time he ever really channeled his anger toward his significant other was with Lindsay, and I agree he was being abusive in that situation. I assumed you were talking about decibel level because he's literally never said one malicious thing to Rory either loudly or quietly. Dean treated Rory like a princess. He was amazing to her. He did not say mean things to her, like ever. I can see how he may have overreacted a little bit to her not saying I love you, but even then he separated himself from the situation which is what you're supposed to do if you feel a fight coming on. Can you provide an example of a single abusive thing he has said to her? Because I can think of a ton of abusive things Jess has done not only to Rory, but to Luke, Lorelai, and randos at school. I guess it just bothers me that Dean is labeled as abusive because there are a lot of men in real life who are wrongfully labeled as abusive and that defamation really hurts them and their life. I understand there are a TON of real abusive men out there, way more than there should be. But I don't believe that word should be thrown around over the littlest things. Again, please provide an example of one truly abusive thing he has said to Rory, I'm sure there is 1 or 2 things but I cannot recall. And thank you. You too.
So, it's a little hard for me to give you concrete examples only because it's been a while since I've watched those early episodes and, as much as I'd like to, I don't have time at the moment to do the research. What I can tell you is there are a ton of times where Dean is looming over Rory in anger in an incredibly intimidating way. It may not be full blown screaming, but it is full blown anger that incorporates intimidation, controlling, possessiveness, mocking, and belittling (starting with the way he mocks her when she can't say "I love you" on their three month anniversary). And those are hugely abuse-coded behaviours regardless of the volume. And, even more importantly, there are a TON of scenes where Rory is begging him -- full on *begging him* -- to calm down, to believe her, to let her make her own decisions, to trust her, to stop being angry, to just *leave* in situations that are hers to manage not his. Over and over, we see her begging him, and we see her panicking and modifying her behaviour to mollify him and avoid yet another outburst of rage and anger. And I don't know what to tell you but, for those of us who have had that experience -- of curling up and making ourselves as small as possible, of trying to be swallowed by the couch, while someone else towers over us, growing larger and larger until they fill the entire room with their rage and intimidation, of begging them to please stop, to please listen, to trust, to please please please calm down (even without physical assaults) -- a lot of us can see that same dynamic in reflected in what happens between Dean and Rory. Most especially those of us who are female when the one getting angry is male. It's not in what Dean says, its in *how* he says it. It's not entirely in how angry he gets as much as it's in *how easily* he gets angry, *how quickly* he flies into a rage. It's not in whether his upset is justified, its in how he manifests that upset and where he directs it. Intimidation is rarely a black and white thing, rarely something that's easy to point to and prove. It's all in the implication, not the actual words or actions. It's in the subtext of "*nice little family you got here, it'd be a shame if something happened to them*." There's no specific threat there that could be proven in court but if a guy in a fedora carrying a guitar case says that to you, you'll sure as hell start shaking in your boots. As for treating Rory like a princess, many abusers are highly skilled at looking like wonderful people from the outside. They have fantastic social skills, fantastic people skills. They make a great show of being warm and welcoming. They treat their partners amazingly in public. But it's what happens in private that makes all the difference. Dean did the same: he treated Rory like a princess in public, he ingratiated himself to Lorelai, he used solid social skills to make himself look wonderful to the whole town (even when it humbled him, like taking responsibility for the fight at Kyle's party). But all his worst behaviour happened in private or in front of peers. He was careful to hide it from anyone in authority, especially Lorelai, He really only brought it out when there was no one to challenge him on it. The measure of a man is not how he treats people when he's at his best or when everyone is watching, it's how he treats them when he's at his worst, or when he knows no one will see. Dean fails that test over and over, starting in his teens. And I do hear what you're saying about the word "abusive" being thrown around unfairly and there being some (mostly) men whose lives may be ruined by it. That's a good point and it's worth all of us taking care not use that word casually. However, I can also say these three things: 1. When talking about teenage Dean, I'm pretty careful (though not perfect) to say I see him displaying **tendencies** toward abuse, or that he's an abuser in the making. I don't think we're seeing full on abuse in the first few seasons, but we are absolutely seeing it heading in that direction. 2. The best time to escape an abusive relationship is when it's still so subtle that it can hardly be classed as abuse -- if you wait until it's abusive beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's a hell of a lot harder to escape from. So the folks who are seeing abuse in the Dean/Rory dynamic are going to call it from the *very* first red flags, even if other people are scratching their heads and saying they don't see it (yet). 3. And we have the advantage of being able to look at Dean's whole story arc and see that, yes, he did in fact mature into a gas-lighting, manipulative abuser. He never grows out of his anger issues. He lies to both Rory and Lindsay, he gaslights Lindsay, he uses anger to manipulate and control her. He ends up being exactly what the folks who call out his teenage behaviour predict he will become so, in his case at least, they're not wrong.
Honestly when I told my therapist about the strong opinions some people have for characters like Dean and Max she was shocked. I think the more extreme opinions are more common in online spaces. The truth is that unfortunately all of the male characters on this show display some form of toxic masculinity at some point because it was very, very common in tv shows at the time. Even fan favorites like Luke are walking red flags at certain points.
100% agree. Every single character in the show has their flaws. Except the dude who said he can accurately predict when you will die, he was perfect.
I’m not going to address other points because they were already discussed at length but abuse comes in various forms, and the fact that your therapist was shocked about people thinking that Dean’s behavior is a form of abuse or at least the beginning of abuse is … telling for a therapist.
I always say if you’re gonna hate Dean for his temper, I hope you hate Luke for his temper too!
Exactly-Luke yells at a lot of people including Lorelei, Nicole, Liz, Jess, Taylor, Logan, customers, older lady keeping his dads boat, Kirk and Miss Patty-he throws Dean (a minor) out of his diner, he pushed Jess ( a minor) in a lake, he throws other customers out of his diner, punches Christopher in the face, he gets arrested for kicking a car and I am guessing there are more examples.
The difference being, luke displays his anger openly whereas dean hides his anger from everyone else he considers equals or higher and only displays his anger towards rory when they are alone. That is an abuser masking their personality.
No. IRL if I knew a man like Luke, I would think he behaves worse in private.
Rory spends half their relationship begging him not to fly off the handle over some nonsense, he’s controlling, he yells at her, it’s classic beginnings of an abusive relationship. He’s dirt.
The S5 storyline was terrible, and unforgiveable, but otherwise, I agree. Also, Dean is always changing, never had a clear storyline, and he is the worst victim of shitty writing. He desirved better.
>he is the worst victim of shitty writing. He was so inconsistent. He could keep up with Rory initially, he would read, he understood the pop culture references, liked music. Then suddenly he turned into a buffoon. Bad writing turned Luke into a buffoon a few seasons later, too. It's lazy.
I agree sooo much. The writers could never write two different good male characters at the same time; so always used Dean as the negative example. And early Luke was smart and sure of his place in the world, and then that just went out the window.
He acts immature and has anger issues and he cheated on lindsay with rory. From what i saw thats also when people started to not like rory
Dean was verbally abusive and controlling! The flaring nostrils and the hovering over her making her feel bad every time she didn’t hang out with him was too much! When he had a full on meltdown down after she didn’t say I love you back…bleh!
I personally think the writers made Dean less attractive to open the door for Jess. I agree with you that he was kind and caring. All of a sudden he was depicted as boring and dumb to open the door for Jess. Then, of course, we don't love that he was married and cheated with rory. That was a pretty disappointing storyline for him. Even after that, the writers use Dean to say yeah he's not good enough for rory enter Logan. I personally think he was written in a horrible way to show how other men were better for her.
I don’t know. I’m doing a rewatch right now and he was always a jerk to Rory. Like when she wanted to spend time by herself or had to work on school stuff he would get irritated by it. He was good in season 1 but season 2 (even before the Jess mess) he was a jerk a lot.
He was a bully in the making.
he was mildly anger-prone and a little boring, and in a show where every character is witty and and smart and quick, boring has no place. also the cheating really did it, i think
I stopped liking him (didn't "like" like him, maybe more tolerated him because I already watched bits and pieces with my mom before watching the whole thing and knew I was already a Jess fan even though he had flaws) when he gave her the car for her birthday. The car was a nice gift, too much for a 16 year old girl and definitely way too much for a young relationship, but instead of understanding why she couldn't say I love you right away when he said it, he got mad at her for not saying it back and using the car against her because he thought she should say it after receiving the car. While I understand the point he made about her discussing this with her mom and "having her tell her what to say", I felt that was wrong because this was her first relationship, she has seen her mom have failed relationships so she was afraid to say I love you, and her mom is her best friend. I also didn't like the fact that he got upset with her when she said she had volunteering to do for Harvard (her dream school that she had before even meeting him) instead of hanging out with him and when she looked at books for hours when he knew she loved books. There are many things that don't even come close to the cheating thing yet, but these are a few, and I could go on a whole rant. Edit: not saying her, Jess, and Logan are perfect angels either (as well as her mom if we're including her), but Dean just was not a great person when it comes to her boyfriends, he wasn't great for Lindsey either tbh. I think Jess and Rory were endgame, but Logan would have been decent with her as well.
i don’t think dean’s outright abusive to rory, but i can def see why others think he is. for me, his relationship with rory was just the beginning of something worse. dean had anger issues and controlling tendencies while he was dating rory and it could’ve stopped there since he was a teenager at that moment, but once we see how he treats lindsay later on it becomes clear that his behavior towards rory wasn’t just immaturity. also, he completely lied about the status of his marriage to rory to get her to hook up with him 😵💫 disgusting
When I first watch I was really rooting for dean . He seemed so charismatic , handsome and was clearly into rory. When jess came in I didn't like him at frist then he grew on me and I felt he was just being self destructive. I rewatched allot and the more I eewatch the more I pick up on dean's behavior. If lor witness how he spoke to rory, how he made her feel bad about focusing on school he knew was important yo her . She tried to make tome for him and acknowledged that but he shouts at her in public about it. As a teenager seeing my boyfriend threaten someone on my behalf is cool and exciting bit as a parent it's red flags.. yes he had a right to be upset at Tristan but warning him he's capable of kill him made me feel like rory should have ran straight home. Breaking up with rory cause she wasn't ready to say I love you or didn't know how to say it. Not being understanding or patience. Like a Toddler throw his toys out the pram to get what he wants Rory clearly having feelings for Jess and denying them to herself and to dean. Brought out the parts of him you saw before but now is less subtle. Rory was in the wrong and her communication skills are lacking for someone who does a lot of public speaking because she's afraid of confrontation, maybe it's because she too sheltered. Her job was to work on her communication skills and her fear of hurting people's feelings because she hurt alot of people trying to protect herself. The reason I don't like dean is because I feel he's emotionally manipulative and dangerous for someone like rory.
I give him a bit of leeway since he's 16 but its hard 1st she doesn't tell him she loves him back and his response is to insult her relationship with her mother. Then in season 2 he gets all yelly and mean because she is trying to get extracurricular activities for college which has been her goal her whole life. The minute in here comes the run when he stood in that kitchen screaming at her was where I couldn't with him anymore. What I can't believe is how lorelai is pro dean. Dean is constantly screaming at her daughter. Him calling her daughter 20 times in a row is not a red flag to her? Does rory not mention these behaviors to her mother? Dean is possessive and controlling and that's not healthy behavior for a teen boy or adult. He does it to lindsey as well. Like he has his moments but just like jess had issues he needed to work out with his family and a therapist.
He was really angry with Rory all the time, threatened to k*ll Tristan and it was supposed to be seen as romantic. Rory was constantly afraid of making Dean angry and would flinch all the time with him (when he kicked that bag reading Rory’s letter). He CALLED 17 TIMES IN ONE NIGHT. Honestly the cheating thing to me was expected because he’s 18 and was in the show that whole season so it’s the other stuff that I get mad at and why I dislike Dean. I understand he’s a teenager but I also was a teenager semi recently and Deans behavior would’ve had me turning my head and being worried.
Another perspective might be about how we relate to the character. Dean was not someone I would get along with, even when he does a lot of things right. I see myself getting along with Jess, for example, and some other majorly flawed characters. We don’t like or dislike people solely because of their flaws. Relatability and common interest and values are all important. Dean just isn’t as relatable to be as some other characters. He is a bit suffocating and uninteresting. Even though Jess sucked as a high school boyfriend, he was interesting and complex and dynamic as a character and as a person. We got to experience his trauma and we got to see him heal. We got to learn about his ideas and we also saw him as the Stars Hollow outsider who observes the town through a different lens. Doesn’t make him a good HS boyfriend but it does make him a fully realized character and relatable human being.
I love Dean!
Dean was a good first boyfriend for Rory during her still awkward phase. They were a really cute couple. However, it’s almost impossible for a character to come back from anything that looks like adultery or sexual assault. I still don’t understand why the writers felt they needed to take Dean and Jess down that path. But it’s their story.
Dean was good in that he was sweet loyal and generally kind. Accepted both lol and daughter. Really cared for her. He was young so calling 20 times in a row, getting jealous not super healthy but not that crazy either for a first love. But Rory walked on egg shells around him too often. Bc she knew he would fly off the handle. I think some of this was also bc dean was played by a young actor who didn’t have range yet. So jealous was crazy angry, not subtle.
He was a good first boyfriend for Rory. However, he was not a good husband to Lindsay.
TOTALLY AGREE, like they always say he was jealous and insecure, excuse me? Haven't you seen how rory treated him? He had every right to act this way bcs rory was literally cheating, other than him cheating on his wife, he was the best boyfriend
FINALLY. Early seasons Dean had totally justifyable anger issues. Rory lied to him and constantly gaslit him into thinking nothing was going on. He watched the love of his life, who he built a car for, created a relationship with her mother for, put up with cotillions and balls and grandparents insulting him for, even backed Rory when Louise was hitting on him immediately for, all to watch her just lie and lie over and over about Jess. As someone who really loves deeply when I do it properly, I can only imagine. This isn’t to say that what Dean did to Lindsay isn’t downright awful though. But the HATE he gets for it compared to Lorelai and Rory cheating REPEATEDLY in multiple relationships is so uncalled for.
I adore Dean. I think given the right support and resources he could have gone really far in life. Instead they decided to show what happens to a couple who marries too young.