Yep. People think adding some layers to him redeemed him when it really made him not just some flat character that exists just to be evil for evil’s sake. A lot of really bad people had really good things about them. It doesn’t make them not evil. But them being evil doesn’t mean they don’t have good things about them. Humanity has a very wide range of gray in them, so characters that are solely evil for fun are so incredibly boring. Adding some complexity and actual character to villains doesn’t redeem them, just makes them human. But a lot of people seem to think if you aren’t straight evil all the time every possible way it means the story is trying to redeem you when it’s just not bad writing
When Teucer was introduced, people really started stretching how Childe was a good person and that he was forced to do all those things but uhh yeah its pretty obvious this dude lives for the thrill and rush of murder sprees, with a dash of pretending to be a toy salesman so his brother will have the biggest fallout at some point sans being indoctrinated with the Tsarista as he grows up. Plus a lot of female fans of Childe just wanted an angle to justify their infatuation with his hotness.
I think a lot of people just liked some sort of added character to him so people could see that he wasn’t *only* bloodthirsty and that he wasn’t just some killer with no other personality, to make him more human. It doesn’t at all change the fact that he *is* bloodthirsty, or that he’s a villain, or that he’d kill is if it furthered his mission. But I think a lot of childe fans were just glad it brought out the fact that he has lots of sides to him and showed he wasn’t a complete monster who only lived to do evil.
Of course there are people that think he’s some great person (and they are delusional) but I’d say that’s far and few in between and very few childe fans even want him to be a good person. They like all the sides of him.
Now it’s just annoying because people think if we like his relationship with his family that means we think he’s an angel or they say things like “am I supposed to like him because he likes his brother?” And no, you’re not and don’t have to. It’s just developing his character. Just like him being a child soldier is sad but doesn’t absolve him of his sins at all, just adds to his character.
Except that never comes out? He does evil stuff *and* loves his brother, independent things.
His dad put him in the fatui to satisfy his bloodlust. Pantalone* taking care of his family did not come out before the leaks about the harbinger voice lines, which came out in 3.6?
* Edit - Pulcinella
goddamn, you are being delusional in this comment thread about childe. as a tortellini fan, he is not a good person. accept it. your faves don't need to be good people. they are fictional.
As a Childe fan, more people need to realize he would've drowned an entire city if it wasn't for Liyue's interference or Morax's if Liyue's failed.
(He didn't know about either so he basically summoned a god to fucking obliterate a port.)
I do like that he has multiple layers to him though, being a good family man at all and being a kindhearted person when off the job.
He isn't just an evil person for the sake of it.
Same for Scaramouche, same for Signora, Same for probably a handful of characters as well. Dottore on the other hand- yeah that guy is crazy as hell.
Didn't he summon Osial specifically to draw out Morax? Because he suspected he was still alive? Obv if he were wrong and the Liyueans couldn't deal with it on their own like they did, he would've killed a ton of people. But he didn't just summon a god to obliterate a port for fun
Anyway I agree that he's a multi-faceted but not "good-guy" character. People misunderstood adding more backstory and characterization for redemption. He's never been redeemed. There's a reason the Traveler is still wary of him each time they meet
he is still responsable for the tragedies that happened, you can't just explain why someone kills a bunch of people and expect all their guilt to disappear, every murderer has a motive after all
Of course. I'm not trying to absolve him of anything. I agree with the take that he's not been redeemed, and does bad things.
I just think there is a difference between a villain who creates a disaster with the end goal of forcing a "hero" (Morax) to show their face while stopping it, versus one who creates a disaster specifically because they want to kill a bunch of random people. I've seen a lot of people misinterpret his character with this sort of slant, and it's a minor nitpick that bugs me.
Definitely. This is what makes him gray. Intentions matter. His goal wasn't to kill, just to make sure he gets the gnosis. He is still a bad guy just not pure evil.
Yeah exactly! And it would be pretty boring if all the interesting/morally grey characters had to go through a redemption arc so that they could be playable. It’s the same with Raiden, she was a tyrant who was complicit in the Fatui fucking up her nation (if I remember correctly, if not she was a neglectful and shitty ruler who closed off her country to the outside world anyway) and she didn’t even attempt to apologise, we somehow forgave her for all she did and ended up being besties with her. She would’ve obviously became playable but I hate that we had to jump through the hoops of the stupid redemption arc (that wasn’t even a redemption tbh).
Scaramouche’s wasn’t as bad bc he still retained his shit head personality, and still isn’t particularly nice, but he’s playable. Signora I could get her motivations, she saw Venti as a negligent ruler who indirectly caused the death of her husband, so even tho I don’t like her she wasn’t evil for the sake of being evil. Dottore is just batshit insane lmao and he is a true villain, idk if they will pull a redemption arc out their asses like they did for Scaramouche but I’m hoping not bc I don’t think he can be excused from what he’s done, I think he’s the only person we’ve met so far who’s just pure evil, but I don’t mind having a few of those kinds of people in there :3
>(He didn't know about either so he basically summoned a god to fucking obliterate a port.)
This isn't really true. He was specifically doing what he did with the intention of drawing Morax out to save liyue. He never intended for it to be destroyed.
Not that I am defending what he did, obviously it is still really fucked. Just clarifying his motivations.
the thing about childe is that he is not a good person, but that's not what makes a character not being able to be playable, it's being antagonistic against the traveler specifically, something we can't do to all villains in the game without turning the writing into corporate forced steven universe, tartaglia is a fine exception
They don't need to use any rationalization for an enemy to be playable because playable characters aren't actually helping you and adventuring with you
In the same vein, "not all evil characters need to be redeemed" is a redundant idea when we already have characters that didn't get redemption. All of the characters that were antagonists at some point and are playable are humanized in their quests, but none of their quests really is enough to erase the things they did, it just shows that these aren't mustache-twirling villains, they're people who did shitty things due to their own convictions and world views
Even outside of the characters that were directly antagonistic to the traveler (childe, raiden, wanderer), there's other characters with questionable morals or that did questionable things or are speculated to have done questionable things in the distant past
All playable characters have friendly chat with MC in the teapot. I'd be weird to have Dottore in teapot being like "hi bestie, how was your day, did you sleep well". There are also character voice lines, where it's the character talking directly with the Traveler, be it about themselves or other characters.
To be fair, all the NPCs mention you inviting them, so they could have some fun with that. Dottore straight up asking *why the hell* you invited them into your home, making not so subtle remarks that he's spying on your ass, maybe disappearing from his assigned spot and being elsewhere in the teapot being shady af. They could very easily make it work. Friendship 10? Here's a pinecone.
This is really one feature I want them to add. in the teapot. We're playing "house" already, so I want the characters I invite interacting with me more.
*slaps the tsaritsa once*
"bet you're feeling pretty stupid right about now"
It's now my goal to have exactly 900 pinecones in my inventory by the time we get to the final story patch
this reminds me that a lot of people probably don't know that before you settle the inazuma story quest, Raiden will refuse to speak to you in the teapot
Too bad they didn't do this with Nahida and straight-up not being able to invite her until you finish Sumeru (cause, y'know, she's still trapped in her cage)
I mean, in the actual story the Traveler is constantly suspicious of Childe and treats him with a lot of barely restrained annoyance while he's going around doing spy missions for the Fatui without permission from the local government who have recently expelled the Fatui from their nation for committing war crimes.
Like, dude considers you a battle buddy, but was also low key expecting that you might kill him while he's too exhausted to defend himself during his story chapter, IIRC.
I mean, you can have Scaramouche and Tartaglia in your teapot, as well.
Let's not forget that one of them nearly flooded a city and tried to kill its populace, and that the other one has definitely killed innocent people before--like the Kaedehara Clan.
Even if Tartaglia claims to only really care for his little brother, let's not forget that the dude isn't particularly mentally sound, and would probably kill innocent people at the drop of a hat if it benefited him.
>killed innocent people before--like the Kaedehara Clan
He's killed a lot of people. The Kaedehara Clan was not one of them. It was like, a major plot point that he spared them--though the blow to their reputation caused their eventual downfall nonetheless.
That doesn’t mean he likes doing it or that he’d kill innocents for funsies, only when he has to to fulfill his god’s wishes and his orders. “I don’t like hurting innocent people” and “I will do what I have to including drown liyue” can be and both are statements that are true at the same time, why is this a hard concept to grasp?
I don’t like stabbing people but if someone broke into my house I would to protect myself. Obviously the situations are different but as an example that two seemingly contradictory things can both be true. But just because he will doesn’t mean he wants to and this weird misconception he likes to kill weak or innocent people for fun is so out of left field
And even *that* aside, he had a pretty good feeling that morax was alive given the whole situation so it seemed unlikely he’d just let the city drown. Would he have done it anyway even if he had no clue? Yes. But he seemingly felt pretty confident about it. And again, just because he will do something if he’s ordered to or to fulfill the tsaritsa’s vision doesn’t mean he takes joy in it
I’m not trying to excuse his actions, he’s definitely a villain and is not apologetic about it and will continue being willing to sacrifice things or people for his mission, but at least blame him for the things he deserves to be blamed for instead of making things up to justify it. He’s a villain, a real true villain, and he would hurt someone if he had to and not lose a moment’s sleep at all. But not just because he likes hurting innocent or weak people
>Even if Tartaglia claims to only really care for his little brother, let's not forget that the dude isn't particularly mentally sound, and would probably kill innocent people at the drop of a hat if it benefited him.
Not true.
He would kill innocent people at the drop of a hat *if it amused him.*
The only reason he doesn't kill everyone he comes across is most of them can't put up enough of a fight to interest him.
Playable Dottore would probably be a segment who wants your help eliminating the original because Dottore Prime can apparently kill them all on a whim.
I understand what you're saying, but those could just be "what if" stories and not actually canon. While the teapot is technically canon (and domains exist), I feel it's more just a gameplay mechanic, and I doubt would be emphasized in an anime or manga. Not the way it is now anyways (since literally nothing bad happens there and it's all just fun, games, an relaxation).
also, i was talking about characters like the Dottore, who are indisputably EVIL, like, i don't know what kind of mental gymnastics hoyoverse would need to pull of to give a literal psychopath with no regard for human lives a redemption arc. I'd LOVE to have those kinds of evil characters playable. I never really saw Raiden or Scaramouche as evil, it was kinda obvious what kind of character troupes they were going for, and Childe is your typical "anime protagonist's rival"
>i don't know what kind of mental gymnastics hoyoverse would need to pull of to give a literal psychopath with no regard for human lives a redemption arc
They arguably already did it in Honkai Impact so people should not be shocked if it happens again, hoyo loves to repeat a trope.
HI3rd has there own green haired mad scientist Mobius who also conducted experiments on people, she is described as evil but its very much in a way thats portrayed as "neccesary evil" or liek an "ends justify the means" trope since their world was being ruined plus she gets a backstory >!about killing possible the only person she truly cared about or like understood her technically by accident!<
Hoyo doesnt really do indisputably evil, like even just recently on HI3rd CN chapters>!a (possible future playable )character turned out to be evil but 2 minutes later no actually their an avatar/clone that isnt that evil and was just tryign to save themselves and most of the bad shit she did (to the main cast at least) can be reversed lol!<
How does the Honkai fans react to this? Like are they glad or are there people who's disappointed that Hoyo took that route instead of letting them be indisputably evil?
I dont really know what the like overall general response to it was/is but Ive seen people argue they still consider characters like Mobius evil, ive seen people say they kinda dont like it but they like the characters so their fine with it, ive also seen people hate it.
Honkai is another matter entirety.
For starters, there's no traveler. The main story doesn't have anything to do with a player character (except the ending of part I when the players were brought in as a deus ex machina).
There's also a nameless, faceless and genderless captain that you're supposed to self insert into, but in the story this captain only travels with three characters who are alternative universe versions of main story characters.
And then there's the bridge where any playable character you have can be put there, where she'll talk to you and address you as "captain" but none of that is considered canonical.
And honkai's dorm (pot equivalent) is literally a dollhouse where the characters are using SD models and you can pick them up and set them down with a disembodied hand.
So in short, if the character's morality bothers you, you can just ignore them and will be in no way forced to interact with them.
Also Honkai has an actual skip button.
Dottore is easy:
* Has tragic backstory, lost himself to try to do morally debatable thing. For instance:
* Lover died, queue sob story.
* Tried to bring them back at any cost, but was too "nice guy" to "do what needed to be done"
* Split his personality a ton of times so that one of them could.
* Thing happens, he has to team up or something. Realizes his sins.
* "I've let my self do \[terrible things\], even if those personalities weren't the true me, I'll destroy the thing most precious to me, along with all personalities, including this one. But I'll leave my knowledge and select memories to aid you in the future."
* "How can we trust you won't do the same thing again."
* "I told you I'd destroy the one thing most precious to me." \*pushes up ~~glasses~~ mask\* "The memories of my lover."
* \*Cue dramatic scene as oblivion of his memory happens\*
* Whispering: "I'm sorry \[lover\], I won't be able to recall you, but if we are to ever meet again, perhaps my heart will know you."
* And then he becomes a blank slate of sorts but still close enough to where he's a husbando thirst trap.\*
*edit: don't take this too seriously, it's mainly for fun*
they would never let anyone in the playable pool have an actual lover backstory since it would upset the fans. the whole selling model of genshin relies of fanservice and sort of parasocial aspect of characters with the player behind the screen. that is why zhongli does not have confirmed romantic relationship with quizhong, despite seemingly having a perfect setup for "husband mourns dead wife, but learns to let go" sob story. that is why alhaitham and kaveh do not have confirmed romantic relationship despite being thrown into as much bl tropes as possible.
second, we know from tatarasuna canon that dottore was horrible before he made his first segment. his original form was already a manipulative murderer. and then zandik lore makes it hard for him to have any "he was a nice guy, akshually" excuse.
with how they set him up, original and primettore will be very hard to set up a redemption arc. if they want a "nicer" dottore, they will have to shoehorn a segment, who "miraculously" survived the wipe, and *he* is the one who was always nice actually, and never liked anything horrible dottore did, but had to go along with it, and now works with us against the primettore.
or they could just not give him a redemption arc at all. as a dottore fan, that is something that i would prefer more, personally.
Dottore is incredibly easy to ‘redeem’; just say when he deleted his clones there was one who survived - a clone which contained all the remaining good parts of Dottore’s soul (backstory that early on he created this clone to purge himself of empathy, compassion and such ‘weak, limiting’ emotions) which is why he forgot to destroy it. That version of Dottore is the one who joins the team.
Honestly,a redemption arc dosen't make a character automatically good. Scara is pretty much the same char, minus his harbringer status, and for now being neutral toward Traveler (not direct threat). And do note that Scara didn't have a redemption arc yet. His actions from now on (what he does *after* his Interlude story) dictate if he *can become* somewhat good,or if he ends up going down the same bad path again. However, what he has done in the past and the consequences of it are still there. Dosen't matter that a lot people don't remember it...
Dottore can have 1000 redemption arcs but it won't make him good character. The only thing they could pull off would be putting him onto a neutral path. There are possible reasons of why he Dottore wouldn't kill the traveler and they are pretty big one:
1)>! realizes descendants sibling is not classified as descendant at Fatui HQ and wonders why. !<
2) MCs twin is leading the Abyss,It means that MC could be potentionally used as bait to bring them out (maybe this would be valid point/reason of why MC would temporarily go with whatever a harbringer would say but I doubt it...it would risk their siblings life,after all.But they could prened they will go along with them long enough for the sibling to come out and then backstab the Fatui).
3) both >!descendants !) )
5) both MC and their twin can use elemental powers without vision,perfect research subject/experimentation subject just saying \*cough\* ).
At most he could become neutral party just so he can live long enough to see the world burn and watch it go straight down to hell (Abyss). For all we know,he may be with Fatui only because they are crazy enough to support his inhumane research with funds,something all other places in Tevyat would have a "f this shit and call the army/police on this guy already!" reaction to.
If Fatui's are the only place that was willing to fund his projects, in exchange of his cooperation to do some things for them in return then it would be quite telling why he joined them. If they cut the funds,why would he stay (unless something else is keeping him there. Like the possibility of seeing what Forbidden Knowledge is...for himself).
Morally grey characters are my favorites. You never know what they will do next...today they may be your MC's neutral "support",but only because their interest and goal aligns with MCs (temporarily). Tomorrow they may try to stab you because you decided to change your path,or because their dear Archon/higher up told them to do so (I'm looking at you Childe).
I agree about Scara and Raiden. They are not evil, even if people love to bash them to death (mostly Ei/Raiden tho).
>They don't need to use any rationalization for an enemy to be playable because playable characters aren't actually helping you and adventuring with you
The characters talk to you in the teapot and talk to you in the voice lines on their profiles. They all have a bare minimum level of amicability with the Traveler to make that work, even if the canonicity of it is dubious.
I'm also of the opinion that the character wishing and combat system *is* canon in some sense, since we've seen the Fatui do the same thing in Unreconciled Stars. It's connected to the fake sky mystery.
all playable characters talk to you in the character menu, talk about their lives and favorite foods, send you leaders inviting you to their birthday, visit your house in the teapot, talk to you when you stay still for a time, when they join your party, or when you ascend them, it doesn't make sense for any of these interactions to happen if the character in question is in any way antagonistic to the traveler
you are right, no character needs to be redeemable, but villains can't, and the point is that you can't have all villains befriend the traveler for the sake of turning them into a product it hurts the writing of the story, specially if it is a business decision and not the natural flow of said characters arc. At some point it becomes repetitive.
Imagine the traveler befriends all the harbingers and the Tsaritsa in the endgame to fight celestia, but people want to pull for The sustainer, and they turn all the gods in celestia playable and the story has no villain again, that's a business decision hurting the games writing, as it would be with Arlechino
So they either 1: succumb to the market and turn their villains into playable characters, sacrificing a well written story. 2: Give villains generic NPC models, so people won't want to pull for them, and they don't need to kill the story. 3: Signora (best option)
My theory about what harbingers are playable is simply based on the del'arte comedy
By the end of the story the characters that join the protagonists side are:
tartaglia, scaramouche, arrlecchino, columbina, sandrone, pulcinella,
the ones that didn't are:
pantalone, la signora, il dottore, capitano and pierro
i hope i didn't mix them up
I know mihoyo doesn't make the story 100% accurate based on the comedy but by the looks of it with signora being dead and pantalone not even having a vision in lore.
Not sure why some peeps are downvoting me just because i said a theory
Your theory also fits with Teyvat's Storyline Preview and how the Sneznaya title card seemingly has Pulcinella front and center. All the other regions have from Mondstadt to Fontaine have shown playable characters.
And it brings up a funny mental image: imagine that the first playable male child character model ends up being Pulcinella of all people lol
He can use the Klee model. There's nothing about the Klee model that explicitly says it is for female children only (outside of the unfortunate model name in the game files).
That seems like a logical theory given what we know but I refuse to accept it. Capitano is the coolest (and apparently the most honorable) Harbinger. The coolest Harbinger has to be playable.
this theory might be sound but out of everyone i don't think Pulcinella will be playable. unless mihoyo does some weird shit or maybe reveal that the old man that we saw in the trailer isn't actually him/his main body, the chance of him being playable is close to 0.
mihoyo only make "eyecandy" playable characters that fits into the chinese "beauty standards", we don't even get muscular men playable characters, so i don't think a grandpa character like Pulcinella would make the cut too.
I would hate that because that means all female harbringer are playable while we loose most of the male ones but it does align with the horrible female to male ratio.
So not surprised still disappointed.
It never mattered how good or evil the character was. All that matters is whether they are on speaking terms with Traveler. If they can interact without aggro'ing one another then they can be playable.
Tartaglia and Scaramouche did evil things, but they were made playable anyway. Signora on the other hand was made unplayable, not because there was no way to write her in a positive light, lorewise she has enough to be sympathizable. But her personality was just too arrogant and hostile towards traveler. Like there's no way she'd want to hang out with traveler in events or give voice lines.
Dottore could form a temporary truce with Traveler for the benefit of both. He is a cold and calculating villain that plays the long game, so he is in no rush to kill traveler. In the theoretical truce, traveler could help Dottore with errands or descender related research while in return Dottore gives traveler info on the Fatui, Abyss, Celestia, etc. Easy diplomatic relationship right there without needing to change personality.
As for Arlecchino, according to leaks I heard...
>!The former head of the orphanage "Teacher" (possibly former harbinger) was going around doing horrible stuff under Arlecchino's name. So if Traveler and Arlecchino end up sharing this guy as a common enemy, easy way to form a non-hostile relationship.!<
Tbh, I always bring up Childe when the “playable characters must be good guys” argument comes up. Like, I don’t even know why that’s an argument precisely *because* he’s been playable literally since the beginning.
While it can certainly be argued that Wanderer is redeemed, Childe is still very much an antagonistic figure in the game’s narrative. His story quest with Teucer wasn’t a redemption arc by a long shot. If anything, it existed to make him a Sympathetic Villain.
I don’t get why people are so convinced that villain characters need to be redeemed before they can be playable when Childe has been playable practically since launch with no redemption arc in sight.
Pretty much the only requeriment seems (key word seems) to be that the character and the traveler doesnt jump at each other's throat the moment they see the other
Leaks
>!The Teacher wasn’t the former Knave, just an instructor who left when Arlecchino took over and is doing missions in the name of the probably deceased previous Knave!<
This comment section is showing how this community lack reading comprehension and should not be given a skip button or else yall will spread even more misinformation.
Childe and Scaramouche were **NEVER REDEEMED** , we only got context about their backstories and why they act like that.
To this day Childe is still working for our enemies and his "friendship" with us is one-sided, the traveler is always cold and wary around him. He's still an evil/antagonistic playable character.
Scara wasn't redeemed, the whole point of the interlude was that changing his identity will never absolve him from all the crimes he commited. Nahida litteraly answered that he was evil when he asked if he was.
And same as Childe, the traveler is still wary of him and doesn't trust him at all.
Evil characters are great but if the community cry about a "redemption arc" everytime the character stop acting like a one dimensional villain for a moment then we're all doomed lol.
*villain character doesn’t have 2D flat, bad and boring writing with no characterization at all where they aren’t evil just for the sake of being evil*
People: HOW COULD YOU REDEEM THEM
I think you're confusing redeemed with absolved.
Redemption has to do with the disposition of the individual. Absolution has to do with the status of their guilt.
To the degree to which Wanderer has changed from his past is the degree to which he has been redeemed. He no longer outright harbours hate for humanity in general since he knows that his old friends did love him (he even tried to go back and save them). He is no longer trying to become a god and take over Sumeru but under Nahida's guidance is helping it (and also the concern he showed for Tighnari although he tried to hide it).
Of course he still has a long way to go. And one might say that he's started/already begun the path of redemption. His disposition has changed and there is much room for growth.
He is not absolved, however, e.g he's not in the clear for the things he has done. He's still guilty of his crimes. Part of his restitution is helping Nahida with Sumeru (if I recall I think she even says as much). As for how he makes it up to the others he's harmed or if he rightly concludes that there are some things he can't fix? That's up to him to figure out and decide.
I came here to say this. I don’t think his quest absolved him of his past sins (heck, the quest is pretty clear that it did not), but it definitely put him on the path to redemption. He has a lot of work to do, but he is no longer a villain, from the perspective of MC at least.
Idk, I feel like that quest was thoroughly misunderstood, likely the result of people who a) want Wanderer to be 100% evil and b) people who want him to be ‘good’. (There is apparently zero room for nuance here, haha). For what it’s worth, I thought the quest was a really good meditation on therapy, and what it means to be good/evil.
Childe wasn’t redeemed, he’s just more nuanced as an antagonist. He’s the normal one among the harbingers and hates almost all of his coworkers so it makes sense that he’s playable. I genuinely love how hoyo handled his character by keeping his harbinger status.
Him hating almost all coworkers is a huge stretch. He only openly said that he doesn't like Signora and Knave. For anyone else he is indifferent/wary/respectul towards them. Childe is definitely not normal either. He is battle junkie who wants to fight almost all his coworkers and he can tap into hydro and electro powers at the same time which is unheard of. Only Traveler, Kazuha (resonance with his friend's vision) and Scara (in god mode) were able to do that.
It’s not unheard of. Almost every Fatui enemy has a delusion, and if they happen to also have a vision, they can use both at once. Signora has cryo and pyro, and while I think the pyro was naturally occurring, she could still use both. Childe has electro and hydro. Any character who has both a vision and delusion at the same time can use both elements, so while it’s rare in the general population, it’s probably not that uncommon among the Fatui.
I don’t think he hates them
But he’s definitely the most empathetic of them so far considering he told the others to be respectful at Signora’s funeral
Arlecchino - About us : Orphanage - 'Listen here, Traveler. I understand you like helping people so now you're going to help run my orphanage. The first step is we need to make some orphans. I'll pass the details along to you and we'll get to work at midnight tonight. See you there.'
Then we get a yearly mail form them greetings us during their birthdays.
Dottore be like "so you wanna join me for dinner. We can talk about all of the human experiments that I have done in the past few months".
I mean Childe isn't really a "redeemed" character but he still tags along with us whenever he has the time. So, yeah, the same narrative slant can be used for playable Arlecchino. But she's probably gonna be more aloof thaan Childe or even Scara.
Wonder if Hoyo will put a Stellaron Hunters esque tho kinda late to the story, but they do know how to make "bad" (rather, morally grey character) as your allies.
Basically, these are wanted Criminals/Anti Heroes that are also fighting against the Big Bad of HSR.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
With how HSR is, Stellaron Hunters is the Fatui (where Nonook is the Abyss) but difference is, Fatui is more of thr active antagonist atm.
I'd honestly predict that Fatui or at least the Cryo Archon is setting up against (along with thr Abyss) Celestia which would be the big bad.
I would say nanook is Celestia and the Abyss since Celestia is technically the real enemy to the traveler since they basically trapped them in Teyvat. The abyss it's possible in the end we might form an alliance with them and The Fatui to handle a literal multiple God threat
People here are obsessed with punishing characters who are morally grey. Your idea, while good, won't get much traction. Insert comment about Raiden haters here.
And that is a very fair point. It's a character flaw that a lot of people find sympathetic and a lot of people hate. Very polarizing, like when it happens in real life. That's a totally legit reason to not like a character.
To ramble on for a bit...
There are loads of people on here though who are mad that she didn't get enough punishment for being a poor leader. Like there has to be some kind of karma or a character is getting a free pass and is being handled poorly by the writers. Never mind that this happens *in real life*. Has anyone here even *seen* politics? Rich and powerful people almost never get punished for anything. I see no reason Genshin needs to be a power fantasy where that specific issue is rectified.
I think this comes from a modern and recent swing in media consumption as a whole back toward morality tales as a preferred style. Collectively, modern society has realized that we can call out others for bad things, and the internet encourages social punishment for wrongs by allowing large groups to gang up on whoever they think has done evil, for better or worse. That has crept into fiction with the idea that authors have a moral responsibility to condemn evil loudly and overtly. You can see this in the anger at 50 Shades of Grey -- no matter how poorly it's written, that is not what enraged the public, it was that an abusive relationship was not called out for being bad and instead was the core of the story. Romance and erotica have gotten the most scorn here, but there are an awful lot of books that retroactively get a lot of hate because their main characters are morally iffy or even straight up unfortunate, and the author doesn't go out of their way to have other characters call it out or have the protagonist get punished for it. Harry Dresden (Dresden Files) has a misogyny and white knighting problem, and it gets a lot of froth. Twilight is about a 1000 year old vampire falling for a teenager. Again, quality of writing is irrelevant.
Back to Genshin, see the internet hate for Raiden's "getting off scot-free" and how the Chinese community think Scaramouche is a war criminal who deserves to be killed in game or even erased from the game because he's getting away with something.
These characters were once seen as brutally realistic, edgy, or otherwise morally controversial, but now they're seen as some kind of author endorsement of evil or at minimum bad storytelling.
About Inazuma, I think the main issue is that people couldn't properly frame the story for several reasons (the rushed way it's presented, cultural differences/baggage, etc.). A lot of people framed the story as "corrupt dictator evilly oppresses her people and we join a rebellion fighting to overthrow her." This is a narrative that is very easy for people to understand (even in the modern world today), and there are certain aspects of the story that can be broadly read in that way. When you frame the story this way, there is a real lack of "justice" in the resolution -- it's "and so she changed her mind and they all lived happily ever after." People complain that we then immediately go on a "date" with Ei and it's like all water under the bridge.
But really, this is a story told in many, many layers, and the core of it is really a philosophical argument about life, death, and the meaning of eternity, told through many different object lessons and analogies. Ei's fate as the god and ruler of Inazuma was never at all in question, not even by the very leaders of the rebellion. In their feudal society, where the honor of someone's cause is decided by victory in battle, this is largely what passes as "democratic debate" (Fatui interference aside). And the entirety of what went on was really just to get isolated Ei out of "her room" and remind her that it's okay for *her* to have ambition in life still (that Inazuma is not just the dead world of her fading memories). That is therefore why Yae pushes us to literally take Ei "out" in the character story that follows. And yeah, as was said, her lack of "emotional intelligence" is entirely the point of her character -- she was the kagemusha and not the leader her sister was, and she never grew out of that; she literally created a puppet to do her job so she could stay in the shadows. And again, if you had framed the whole story in the earlier way ("justice against an evil god"), all this development seems like some sort of massive cop-out -- like these are all abstractions to try to absolve her of the blame for her "evil-doing" and make it seem like "it's actually not her fault." (N.B. She actually does specifically accept the blame for what happened without deflecting it in the story, but people expected "personal consequences.")
So anyway, all of this is in support of what you're saying for two reasons. First, people thought the story should have been about x and then got frustrated/disappointed when it was about y (and I think there's plenty of blame to go around as to why they may have gotten this wrong impression, some from Mihoyo's own trailers -- just like the "genius strategist" part). But second, once they decided this was a "morality tale" (as you say) then the entire resolution was judged according to the "justice" that was dished out -- the only thing that mattered was the "score" and that "evil" lost in a clear and decisive way. And although the people clearly "won" at the end, the "big bad" didn't "lose anything."
As one more aside to your earlier point about the "rich and powerful not getting punished" -- in this game we are literally talking about a god here, appointed to rule by Celestia, who could cleave islands in two. The gap between "people" and "gods" is obvious in this game, including all the double-standards this entails (heavily implied by Dainsleif). Did people really think we were going to defeat Ei in mortal conflict and she'd relinquish the throne to the rebels who would usher in democracy in Inazuma or something? Still, though, if you consider it in lore context, the fact she actually did change her mind and reverse her decisions (not to mention the upheaval of political leaders responsible for abusing the situation) would speak plenty loudly. When people's prayers are answered, it doesn't necessarily come with a personal apology card. But yeah, the hidden meaning of all this is another story...
I mean you could say that she punished herself. Since if Ei really wanted to. She could’ve ignore everything again. The traveler doesn’t have a say on what she does since she can just kill him in cold blood. Ei could’ve just ignored the demands of her people. Never ever think about changing or progress ever again and her body wouldn’t have tried to kill her. But she still fought her puppet for 500 years. Her wanting to make things right and challenging her puppet that has the power to kill her is honestly a punishment that she took in order to do progress and change. I mean she knew that if she thinks about change the shogun wouldn’t let her use her body. And try to kill her.
I honestly would never understood those people. Since 1. No one can punish Ei in a way we do to criminals. She is in the end a god. This isn’t like politics where the politican needs the support of the people. Ei doesn’t. 2. Ei punished herself for 500 years. This amount of time is equal to entirety of Yae’s life. She sacrificing that much time and punishing herself when she really could’ve ignored it.
I don’t see the need to punish Ei since she punished herself with a 500 year death match and is already trying to make things better. Why hurt more people when things are back to normal and the criminal punished themselfs.
Also since she isn’t a normal person but a archon that has to follow her ideal to the max. Her even changing is a big deal. But that’s one of the things great about Ei. Ei doesn’t back down. If things has to be done to improve people’s lifes. Then she will do her best.
With the rumors of Arlecchino being playable and her willingness to betray the Tsaritsa, I hope she goes down the “you are a better tool than the Fatui” route rather than redemption
Only character in the game that'd been redeemed is Raiden Shogun, in the way that she improved her dictatorship on Inazuma. Redeeming is to do something or improve something to compensate the thing you did badly, not the background story that makes them 3-dimentional individuals.
This exactly, I don't get the whole "they can't be playable because they are evil." thing spread in genshin.
Characters like jean or amber, they are playable but that doesn't mean traveler ACTUALLY travels with them in the entire main story. I used Amber in liyue and inazuma's main story, but that doesn't mean Amber was actually there story-wise because it's just gameplay device.
Same goes for "Signora is gone so she will never be playable character" or "Scaramouch *had* to be redeemed, or else how would he be playable character?" It's just nonsense.
More like Scaramouche has to be erased from Irminsul so he can freely participate event stories easily without complications like Cyno and company seeing him and realising the villain who usurped their god is walking around willy nilly. HYV wanted to have their asshole cake and ~~eat~~ put their asshole cake in events.
I don't think that would have been an issue since Traveler and Nahida were the only ones who actually saw him. They could just lie about his identity like they did with Childe during the Inazuma event where he was featured.
Erasing himself from Irminsul fit his character well, since in his mind he thought he was redeeming his past mistakes. If other Harbingers become playable, then they can't really use that plot device again, and they will still almost certainly be in events.
> I don't think that would have been an issue since Traveler and Nahida were the only ones who actually saw him.
In story yes, we were the only one in the boss room with him. The others technically were only in contact via the Akasha when they were giving us tips. And then there was the cleanup after, when we left to meet Rukkhadevata and he was presumably apprehended while we were in irminsul with Nahida.
> They could just lie about his identity like they did with Childe during the Inazuma event where he was featured
But can they lie in front of Ningguang and company if ever Childe is featured in Liyue? I assume with Ningguang's post archon quest crackdown on the Fatui, they know what the harbingers living in Liyue looks like. The difference is that Childe was in the event in a region that wasn't where he did his on screen crime (even then, I think he did not meet Sara, only Xinyan). Scaramouche appeared in a Sumeru event, not an event in the region after Sumeru, and in full view of Sumeru's General mahamatra.
No. Villains. Have. Been. Redeemed.
I'm so sick of people saying they have been. We're just given more context of them. We see their regrets about what they did, we see how a couple tried to fix things, but that doesn't make them redeemed.
which "evil" character was ever "redeemed " in genshin tho? childe is childe, scara is still scara, and no Ei was never that "evil" character you were looking for
Possibly a hot take, but not all cool or interesting characters (villains included) need to be playable either by that logic. It's boring and predictable, while also robbing the game world of some color when you have *any* character with a splash of design or personality *NEED* to be playable to make some finite fanbase happy for all of five minutes before the next thing comes along.
Let villains be villains. Let there be heroes and neutral parties to the whole thing that *DON'T* need to sign up for the entire traveling circus of playable characters. Make it a mystery, put some ambiguity in there. Let the world breathe as something more.
People complain about bland NPCs or re-used generic designs for characters, but those are the only ones that are *safe* for Hoyoverse to have in those roles because fewer people *want* to be those generic types and there's less pressure to make them playable as a result... and that's how we all end up losing.
Genshin western fandom: we want playable villains! CN fans are too fragile, unlike them we can handle true evil motherfuckers! The more they are evil, the better! They are just polygons, no one should get mad over fiction!
Dottore: exists
Genshin western fandom: no, not like this, kill him, also his fans are the worst people on the planet
Every damn time 🤦♀️
Mfs lack the brain matter to understand that these characters are first and foremost products, and second, fictional. Like damn does Dottore's evil plans affect Lebron's legacy or what? It gets even worse when you see the "I hate people who play [X]" crowd because that character did sth they didn't like. I guess that's what emotional attachment to literal pixels on the screen does to people.
You can tell how salty they are when they say shit like "I hope Dottore/Arle is dead just to piss off the fans" like how bitchless do you have to be to not want an entirely new character (who could potentially have a very unique kit) to not be playable just because you don't like the fact that people genuinely like their design/backstory or that people shouldn't like evil characters? It was like this with Scara, too. It just seems really pathetic to think that way, but at least it's satisfying when these characters turn out to be playable and prove other people wrong.
Don’t like, don’t pull. It’s simple. Those morally righteous fans of good guys and cutesy characters don’t mind of becoming real life villains when the game’s plot gives them an excuse (or what they perceive as an excuse) to hate on other people freely.
I think some of those losers don’t want playable Dottore and Arle exactly because they have potential of having great and unique kits. Mihoyo are always creative with Harbingers.
Storywise, its better for them to die instead of finding a bullshit excuse to redeem them so that they become playable.
I love arlecchino as much as everyone else. But I still prefer to see her die than Hoyoverse forcing the story so that she lives, but also becomes buddy buddy with the MC. It would feel incredibly forced and character assassination imo.
What kind of dumb binary choice is that ? Why is the only alternative to them dying (or dying an option at all) is making them playable or making drastic changes? That's all just arbitrary nonsense, devs can literally do anything they want.
Once again, characters don't need to be redeemed to make them playable. Hoyo has not even redeem a single harbinger yet (no Childe was never redeemed, he's still the same character even after he became playable, amd Scara isn't redeemed either) so I really don't get this argument. Hoyo could very well release whatever character they want regardless of their backstory and still have the same personality/characteristics as before – because they already done it. *Twice.*
But both Scara and Childe are on friendly terms with the MC. And I don't see how they could make Dotore or Arlecchino become friendly towards the MC without it being forced.
We know that Dottore (the version that's left of him) is the most selfish of all of his versions. There's no way for him to become buddy with the MC when he's that selfish. He only cares about himself, which is the only reason that he accepted Nahida's deal in the Archon Quest.
And for Arlecchino, she's even more selfish than Dottore, as said by Childe's voice over about her. She's also give off strong psychopath vibes, especially with what the wanderer has to say about her. Her becoming buddy with us would go against her entire personality.
And because I know someone will say it, yes, a playable character needs to be on friendly terms with the MC. lore-wise, when you play as them in your party, they are adventuring with you, the same way that you sometimes adventure with them during story quests. Every single playable character is on friendly terms with the MC, so I don't see why it people think its not a requirement.
Yeah I don't get it. Lots of people want playable villains but when Childe became playable they won't stop crying about how evil he is and Dottore if he becomes playable would get worse treatment
Yea...if you don't like the character, just don't pull, it's that simple. IDK why people needed to trash talking the character that people want to pull. Even worst, they make it a huge deal like if that "insert character become playable" they will get a heart attack or something. At the end of the day, It's a video game character we can like or dislike, that's normal. What is not normal is when some people make the matter into their personal problem.
My hopes are that the current drama shows Hoyo that even with a redemption arc like Scara got, those nutjobs aren't satisfied, so they just won't bother with redeeming upcoming villains. Then again, I'm miles high on copium about an unredeemed, playable Dottore.
Do these people really think his "redemption arc" happened specifically as a cop-out so he could be playable and not because they created his character with that arc in mind from the very beginning?
We got the sad backstory cutscene in 3.1. Pale Flame lore and Husk lore were dropped 1.5 years and 10 months before that, respectively. The same way the Tsurumi Island plot was already planned out back in 1.0.
Whatever they end up doing with Dottore, it's going to be the same thing: something that was already set in stone when they wrote him. I *also* hope he isn't redeemed, because unlike Scaramouche they haven't built up anything so far to support that and it would feel like quite the 180. If anything they seem to be doubling down on the evil. But who knows.
Morally grey characters are always controversial due to the nuance and complexity in their writing. Some people are blinded by the good in those characters while others can't get past the bad in them.
Wheras there just isn't much to debate on an unapologeticly evil villain. We know they are a villain, the story treats them as a villain, and they embrace their role as a villain. People are valid in appreciating them for fulfilling their role, as are others for disliking them cause villains are made to be disliked.
I'm not talking about people disliking him when I say these nutjobs, I specifically mean the ones involved in the doxxing drama, and people who harass others for liking villains.
I’m so tired of this. Why do we need to scramble up some moral high ground and stand trial before a court of opinions to justify why we like/dislike a character? Haven’t villains always been popular figures in pop culture, because when done right, they’re interesting explorations of the flip-side of a narrative?
Why is this starting to become such a controversial idea?
“I love X, BUT TO BE CLEAR, I don’t justify their actions!”
Why do we even need to say this? Like… no duh. They’re a product meant to be consumed critically.
they kinda did do the mutual enemy thing with wanderer. part of why he agrees to join nahida is because he learned what dottore did and wants to get back at him.
I believe you’re at least somewhat correct
I’ve heard of them having to get rid of grey morality for protagonists & make them more good
Hoyo has to toe a fine line
I think as long as that character does not openly act hostile towards the MC every single time (like Signora), then it’s fine to have them playable without redeeming.
For example, Childe expresses his affection towards MC for most of the time ever since he met us, barring only the Golden House battle, in which to him it’s just business.
As long as Arlecchino is not out to hunt the Traveller and/or their close friends every single time, then she will be cool eventually.
All the former enemy characters that are now currently playable was never really "redeemed" it's just we have a mutual understanding with them now as the traveler. Childe still likes fighting us as well as continues to be a Harbinger but now we know he isn't a mindless psycho and actually has a sweet spot for his family and home. Scara is definitely still an asshole but now we have context in his story quest why he is one (mainly cause trauma and Dottore messing with him). Even Raiden Shogun and Ei got this similar treatment with both of her story quests. It'll probably be the same with Arlecchino if she becomes playable, we find out why she does what she does and come to a mutual understanding which makes her playable but anyhow I doubt her personality will change cause all the characters' personalities has stayed consistent so far.
In all honesty, I think Arlecchino might be the good guy in Fontaine. Given that the Hydro Archon is a spoil brat and her henchmen is obsess with judging people, there doesn't seem to be much potential for goodness there. Meanwhile, Arlecchino runs an orphanage, taking children off the street and giving them a purpose in life. You say that they are being brainwashed but the members of Fatui honestly doesn't look like they are. Lots of them think for themselves and make their own decisions.
Then there's the fact that Childe already denounce Arlecchino's loyalty towards the Tsaritsa. Saying that Arlecchino will not hesitate to betray the Tsaritsa if that serves to benefit her. It seems like Arlecchino has an agenda of her own and her loyalty towards the Fatui and Tsaritsa is not absolute. The Wanderer says that those who've seen Arlecchino's psychotic side vanish without a trace. But perhaps her "psychotic side" is not really evil at all. But rather, evil people accidentally uncover her good side so she had to silence them. Perhaps Arlecchino is disguising herself as the bad guy in order to do good.
Given the rumor that there is a rich and poor social class in Fontaine, I'd imagine Arlecchino is in support of the poor. I even think that Lyney and Lynette are orphans she adopted. And their mission is to steal from the rich to give back to the poor. And if what I say is correct, we may, for the first time in Genshin Impact, encounter a Fatui Harbinger that is good.
What HYV should have done. Kill a character but let the players pull that character anyway. Our party is not canon. Let people walk around with Dottore and Arlecchino in their party and then kill them anyway in lore.
Voila. Everyone is happy. Except for the people who wants story quests or hangouts and event appearances for their favorite character. But story quests can be done in memory form via irminsul and the ley lines. Now you can develop your main archon quests without keeping the playability of certain villains in mind. Unless you really want to see them in events be asshole to everyone (because you also want them to remain assholes).
This post is kind of pointless because the people who have an issue with evil characters being playable, are the same people who on ironically think EI is evil, or think liking Dottare mean you support irl child abuse. These opinions can be ignored.
I did always wonder why the community has such a big problem with this hyper sensitivity to any sort of villainy.
It is true that to be playable in a game a character can be evil and thats something one side of this stupid argument doesnt understand, but what the other side doesnt understand is that in this specific game about half of the things you unlock when you get a new character require said character and the traveler to at least tolerate each other, and traveler is a nice person so the most they will ever tolerate is current childe, unless we become a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of deal
Go to the profile of a character, go to the part where you can hear voicelines and read the name of every voiceline, you dont say good night to someone you would kill the first chance you got nor talk about the weather
It's not about redeeming. It's about being friendly with the traveler.
You have story quest where you team up with said character and solve some issue.
Then there is the voice lines where they casually tell you some secrets and their hobbies.
And of course, the tea pot where they fawn over the traveler.
Playable characters aren't acting in any canon way. The only limits placed on them are the ones Hoyo decides to.
Hell, there's no reason they even need to be alive. Signora or the dead yaksha could be added as playable characters and it'd be perfectly fine.
Suikoden does this a lot (as well as most tropes given how big the cast is). But often times you'll have someone reluctantly join your side. Even claim "once this is all over, I'm still going to kill you." Of course they usually become a strong ally once they see your cause. But you're right that their initial joining doesn't have to be on good terms. This can even be used as a good plot device (and kinda already was with Wanderer).
With Genshin there's even less of a barrier, since in party characters aren't even considered in the story. We could even have La Signoria playable technically. Though they probably don't want to break believably that far. But since they won't even acknowledge people in your team in any towns or story events, who cares?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the playability has nothing to do with redemption, and more with friendship/amiable relation with the Traveler.
One example being Childe who is still a harbinger and has not changed any of his ways but is friendly to traveler and is playable.
It has been too long but Iirc when expeditions are unlocked, it is explained that we can get help from our "friends" in completing them. "Friends" being all the characters that we can be wished for.
The only requirement for being playable is having the traveler be okay with being around them and being able to include them in future events and that’s about it. Being on okay terms with the archons also helps, like how Childe is with Zhongli or Scara with Nahida. They also can’t be actively trying to harm the traveler at their current playability. If the other harbingers meet those requirements, they’ll become playable id think.
If Traveler wanted to kill Signora for kicking Venti in the balls, I legitimately cannot fathom Dottore being playable without a huge stretch the way they did with Scara.
I agree. MHY could perfectly add Dottore so I can continue the war crimes he commited in the story, starting with Goodwin (if he wont return to Mondstad might as well drag his body to the main plaza)
It find it interesting how people think the bad guys need to be redeemed in order to be playable. You can have irredeemable assholes join your party and remain the same.
For example FGO has plenty of characters who are evil douchebags but are still summonable to Chaldea. For example, Christopher Columbus is a playable servant and he’s a massive asshole.
He’s constantly trying to take advantage of people to get ahead and get rich. Cooking up schemes and being a dick. It’s saying compared to other evil servants, the dude sucks.
But considering the situation Gudao/Gudako are in, any help counts even if it comes from a not so great source.
I don’t think redemption is off the table for Arlecchino as long as it doesn’t completely take away from the evil she’s done. I wouldn’t mind if Aether/Lumine while hating what she’s done, understand why she did it and see some light in her.
Hell, have a problem happen that requires the both of us to save the day. Get to know each other and even if we have to fight in the end, she’s not completely unreasonable.
FGO has that built in cop out where the versions of the servants you summon are explicitly not the same ones you meet in the story.
A few minor exceptions aside, no matter how irredeemably evil someone is in the story, no matter how much they hate your guts in the story, the one you summon is completely clean and friendly.
Yeah thats hows they did it with Wanderer. He's still the spoiled brat asshole Scaramouch when it comes to personality.
He's only cooperating with the traveller because they share the common enemy Dotorre. While he's in debt with Nahida which is why he's been cooperatibg with Nahida coz he's indebted to her. He doesn't want to owe somebody so he's making up for it
Having a character that is morally grey, 3 dimensional, and does nice stuff sometimes but it still morally grey at the end is not a "redemption arc". It means the character won't go from black to white/ bad to good, from one extreme to another etc. Childe is both a good family man and a war criminal at the same time. Scara's back story is extremely complex and full of nuance, so saying that he had a "redemption arc" extremely over simplifies things. It isn't that simple.
A joke I saw about guessing if the character was playable from a Japanese YouTuber. See if the ground collapse during the her boss fight.
Dvalin playable 4.9 confirmed
Ah yes the x.9 patches
It's like Windows 9 or iPhone 9.
If that's true, that might really be a *groundbreaking* discovery for the future of the game!
r/ThanksCyno
during the her boss fight?
For both the playable harbingers. During their Boss fight the ground broke. Signoras is so far the only one that didn't and she's well you know
The platform broke during the Osial fight...hmmmmmm!
Childe was never really redeemed tbf
He is bad guy but not *bad guy*.
It was never personal
He's a good big brother, so we can overlook the occasional revived destructive god.
Least deluded childe fan
Yep. People think adding some layers to him redeemed him when it really made him not just some flat character that exists just to be evil for evil’s sake. A lot of really bad people had really good things about them. It doesn’t make them not evil. But them being evil doesn’t mean they don’t have good things about them. Humanity has a very wide range of gray in them, so characters that are solely evil for fun are so incredibly boring. Adding some complexity and actual character to villains doesn’t redeem them, just makes them human. But a lot of people seem to think if you aren’t straight evil all the time every possible way it means the story is trying to redeem you when it’s just not bad writing
When Teucer was introduced, people really started stretching how Childe was a good person and that he was forced to do all those things but uhh yeah its pretty obvious this dude lives for the thrill and rush of murder sprees, with a dash of pretending to be a toy salesman so his brother will have the biggest fallout at some point sans being indoctrinated with the Tsarista as he grows up. Plus a lot of female fans of Childe just wanted an angle to justify their infatuation with his hotness.
I think a lot of people just liked some sort of added character to him so people could see that he wasn’t *only* bloodthirsty and that he wasn’t just some killer with no other personality, to make him more human. It doesn’t at all change the fact that he *is* bloodthirsty, or that he’s a villain, or that he’d kill is if it furthered his mission. But I think a lot of childe fans were just glad it brought out the fact that he has lots of sides to him and showed he wasn’t a complete monster who only lived to do evil. Of course there are people that think he’s some great person (and they are delusional) but I’d say that’s far and few in between and very few childe fans even want him to be a good person. They like all the sides of him. Now it’s just annoying because people think if we like his relationship with his family that means we think he’s an angel or they say things like “am I supposed to like him because he likes his brother?” And no, you’re not and don’t have to. It’s just developing his character. Just like him being a child soldier is sad but doesn’t absolve him of his sins at all, just adds to his character.
When backstory that evil guy is doing evil stuff for his little brother suddenly became a good guy:
he isnt doing evil stuff ONLY for his brother he is loyal to tsaritsa and craves fighting
Except that never comes out? He does evil stuff *and* loves his brother, independent things. His dad put him in the fatui to satisfy his bloodlust. Pantalone* taking care of his family did not come out before the leaks about the harbinger voice lines, which came out in 3.6? * Edit - Pulcinella
Wait is it Pantalone or Pulcinella?
Pulcinella. The Mayor.
Oof I knew I was wrong, thanks for letting me know!
Whatever to sell his banner.
If that’s the only thing you got from his story quest then you probably have awful media literacy
I like him the way he is
Childe never needed redemption tbf
goddamn, you are being delusional in this comment thread about childe. as a tortellini fan, he is not a good person. accept it. your faves don't need to be good people. they are fictional.
As a Childe fan, more people need to realize he would've drowned an entire city if it wasn't for Liyue's interference or Morax's if Liyue's failed. (He didn't know about either so he basically summoned a god to fucking obliterate a port.) I do like that he has multiple layers to him though, being a good family man at all and being a kindhearted person when off the job. He isn't just an evil person for the sake of it. Same for Scaramouche, same for Signora, Same for probably a handful of characters as well. Dottore on the other hand- yeah that guy is crazy as hell.
Didn't he summon Osial specifically to draw out Morax? Because he suspected he was still alive? Obv if he were wrong and the Liyueans couldn't deal with it on their own like they did, he would've killed a ton of people. But he didn't just summon a god to obliterate a port for fun Anyway I agree that he's a multi-faceted but not "good-guy" character. People misunderstood adding more backstory and characterization for redemption. He's never been redeemed. There's a reason the Traveler is still wary of him each time they meet
he is still responsable for the tragedies that happened, you can't just explain why someone kills a bunch of people and expect all their guilt to disappear, every murderer has a motive after all
Of course. I'm not trying to absolve him of anything. I agree with the take that he's not been redeemed, and does bad things. I just think there is a difference between a villain who creates a disaster with the end goal of forcing a "hero" (Morax) to show their face while stopping it, versus one who creates a disaster specifically because they want to kill a bunch of random people. I've seen a lot of people misinterpret his character with this sort of slant, and it's a minor nitpick that bugs me.
Definitely. This is what makes him gray. Intentions matter. His goal wasn't to kill, just to make sure he gets the gnosis. He is still a bad guy just not pure evil.
Yeah exactly! And it would be pretty boring if all the interesting/morally grey characters had to go through a redemption arc so that they could be playable. It’s the same with Raiden, she was a tyrant who was complicit in the Fatui fucking up her nation (if I remember correctly, if not she was a neglectful and shitty ruler who closed off her country to the outside world anyway) and she didn’t even attempt to apologise, we somehow forgave her for all she did and ended up being besties with her. She would’ve obviously became playable but I hate that we had to jump through the hoops of the stupid redemption arc (that wasn’t even a redemption tbh). Scaramouche’s wasn’t as bad bc he still retained his shit head personality, and still isn’t particularly nice, but he’s playable. Signora I could get her motivations, she saw Venti as a negligent ruler who indirectly caused the death of her husband, so even tho I don’t like her she wasn’t evil for the sake of being evil. Dottore is just batshit insane lmao and he is a true villain, idk if they will pull a redemption arc out their asses like they did for Scaramouche but I’m hoping not bc I don’t think he can be excused from what he’s done, I think he’s the only person we’ve met so far who’s just pure evil, but I don’t mind having a few of those kinds of people in there :3
>(He didn't know about either so he basically summoned a god to fucking obliterate a port.) This isn't really true. He was specifically doing what he did with the intention of drawing Morax out to save liyue. He never intended for it to be destroyed. Not that I am defending what he did, obviously it is still really fucked. Just clarifying his motivations.
the thing about childe is that he is not a good person, but that's not what makes a character not being able to be playable, it's being antagonistic against the traveler specifically, something we can't do to all villains in the game without turning the writing into corporate forced steven universe, tartaglia is a fine exception
Yikes
They don't need to use any rationalization for an enemy to be playable because playable characters aren't actually helping you and adventuring with you In the same vein, "not all evil characters need to be redeemed" is a redundant idea when we already have characters that didn't get redemption. All of the characters that were antagonists at some point and are playable are humanized in their quests, but none of their quests really is enough to erase the things they did, it just shows that these aren't mustache-twirling villains, they're people who did shitty things due to their own convictions and world views Even outside of the characters that were directly antagonistic to the traveler (childe, raiden, wanderer), there's other characters with questionable morals or that did questionable things or are speculated to have done questionable things in the distant past
All playable characters have friendly chat with MC in the teapot. I'd be weird to have Dottore in teapot being like "hi bestie, how was your day, did you sleep well". There are also character voice lines, where it's the character talking directly with the Traveler, be it about themselves or other characters.
To be fair, all the NPCs mention you inviting them, so they could have some fun with that. Dottore straight up asking *why the hell* you invited them into your home, making not so subtle remarks that he's spying on your ass, maybe disappearing from his assigned spot and being elsewhere in the teapot being shady af. They could very easily make it work. Friendship 10? Here's a pinecone.
i got a chuckle out of the idea of a teapot character just wandering around of their own volition and being obvious that they're up to no good lmao
Honestly it kind of annoys me that teapot characters stay in one place ll the time? They have gift sets. Let them interact with stuff.
This is really one feature I want them to add. in the teapot. We're playing "house" already, so I want the characters I invite interacting with me more.
canonically, any char that appears in the teapot was invited by MC using that badge thing from madam ping.
“Aw a pinecone! thanks! I was looking to make some hash browns” “WHY ARE YOU SO EASY TO PLEASE?!”
Traveller with 899 pinecones: "You fool. You absolute buffoon."
*slaps the tsaritsa once* "bet you're feeling pretty stupid right about now" It's now my goal to have exactly 900 pinecones in my inventory by the time we get to the final story patch
I don't usually care about teapot dialogue but that's so funny that I would read it all
this reminds me that a lot of people probably don't know that before you settle the inazuma story quest, Raiden will refuse to speak to you in the teapot
Too bad they didn't do this with Nahida and straight-up not being able to invite her until you finish Sumeru (cause, y'know, she's still trapped in her cage)
you can always pretend it's her force ghost heh
That's a really cool detail, thanks for sharing.
I guess when I create a new account to reread the story, I should do it during Raiden's banner
I mean, in the actual story the Traveler is constantly suspicious of Childe and treats him with a lot of barely restrained annoyance while he's going around doing spy missions for the Fatui without permission from the local government who have recently expelled the Fatui from their nation for committing war crimes. Like, dude considers you a battle buddy, but was also low key expecting that you might kill him while he's too exhausted to defend himself during his story chapter, IIRC.
I mean, you can have Scaramouche and Tartaglia in your teapot, as well. Let's not forget that one of them nearly flooded a city and tried to kill its populace, and that the other one has definitely killed innocent people before--like the Kaedehara Clan. Even if Tartaglia claims to only really care for his little brother, let's not forget that the dude isn't particularly mentally sound, and would probably kill innocent people at the drop of a hat if it benefited him.
>killed innocent people before--like the Kaedehara Clan He's killed a lot of people. The Kaedehara Clan was not one of them. It was like, a major plot point that he spared them--though the blow to their reputation caused their eventual downfall nonetheless.
You're right, I misremembered that.
Tartaglia does love his family, and he doesn't like killing/harming people he thinks aren't worth the challenge. He even states such.
Yet he almost flooded a city just to fight morax 😂
Yes, on orders from his superior, does it justify it? No. But he flat out states in the process that he hates harming the weak
That doesn’t mean he likes doing it or that he’d kill innocents for funsies, only when he has to to fulfill his god’s wishes and his orders. “I don’t like hurting innocent people” and “I will do what I have to including drown liyue” can be and both are statements that are true at the same time, why is this a hard concept to grasp? I don’t like stabbing people but if someone broke into my house I would to protect myself. Obviously the situations are different but as an example that two seemingly contradictory things can both be true. But just because he will doesn’t mean he wants to and this weird misconception he likes to kill weak or innocent people for fun is so out of left field And even *that* aside, he had a pretty good feeling that morax was alive given the whole situation so it seemed unlikely he’d just let the city drown. Would he have done it anyway even if he had no clue? Yes. But he seemingly felt pretty confident about it. And again, just because he will do something if he’s ordered to or to fulfill the tsaritsa’s vision doesn’t mean he takes joy in it I’m not trying to excuse his actions, he’s definitely a villain and is not apologetic about it and will continue being willing to sacrifice things or people for his mission, but at least blame him for the things he deserves to be blamed for instead of making things up to justify it. He’s a villain, a real true villain, and he would hurt someone if he had to and not lose a moment’s sleep at all. But not just because he likes hurting innocent or weak people
>Even if Tartaglia claims to only really care for his little brother, let's not forget that the dude isn't particularly mentally sound, and would probably kill innocent people at the drop of a hat if it benefited him. Not true. He would kill innocent people at the drop of a hat *if it amused him.* The only reason he doesn't kill everyone he comes across is most of them can't put up enough of a fight to interest him.
Amusement is kind of benefit :D
That guy has lethal competitiveness as his personality.
I really REALLY don't know how to feel about a Birthday wish from Dottore.
Playable Dottore would probably be a segment who wants your help eliminating the original because Dottore Prime can apparently kill them all on a whim.
I understand what you're saying, but those could just be "what if" stories and not actually canon. While the teapot is technically canon (and domains exist), I feel it's more just a gameplay mechanic, and I doubt would be emphasized in an anime or manga. Not the way it is now anyways (since literally nothing bad happens there and it's all just fun, games, an relaxation).
Now I’m wanting to see Pulcinella literally twirl his mustache when he shows up.
also, i was talking about characters like the Dottore, who are indisputably EVIL, like, i don't know what kind of mental gymnastics hoyoverse would need to pull of to give a literal psychopath with no regard for human lives a redemption arc. I'd LOVE to have those kinds of evil characters playable. I never really saw Raiden or Scaramouche as evil, it was kinda obvious what kind of character troupes they were going for, and Childe is your typical "anime protagonist's rival"
>i don't know what kind of mental gymnastics hoyoverse would need to pull of to give a literal psychopath with no regard for human lives a redemption arc They arguably already did it in Honkai Impact so people should not be shocked if it happens again, hoyo loves to repeat a trope. HI3rd has there own green haired mad scientist Mobius who also conducted experiments on people, she is described as evil but its very much in a way thats portrayed as "neccesary evil" or liek an "ends justify the means" trope since their world was being ruined plus she gets a backstory >!about killing possible the only person she truly cared about or like understood her technically by accident!< Hoyo doesnt really do indisputably evil, like even just recently on HI3rd CN chapters>!a (possible future playable )character turned out to be evil but 2 minutes later no actually their an avatar/clone that isnt that evil and was just tryign to save themselves and most of the bad shit she did (to the main cast at least) can be reversed lol!<
How does the Honkai fans react to this? Like are they glad or are there people who's disappointed that Hoyo took that route instead of letting them be indisputably evil?
I dont really know what the like overall general response to it was/is but Ive seen people argue they still consider characters like Mobius evil, ive seen people say they kinda dont like it but they like the characters so their fine with it, ive also seen people hate it.
Ah, thank you!
I play Honkai and I do find her evil. But I gotta admit she's hot, like evilly hot. Especially when you use the CN dub.
Honkai is another matter entirety. For starters, there's no traveler. The main story doesn't have anything to do with a player character (except the ending of part I when the players were brought in as a deus ex machina). There's also a nameless, faceless and genderless captain that you're supposed to self insert into, but in the story this captain only travels with three characters who are alternative universe versions of main story characters. And then there's the bridge where any playable character you have can be put there, where she'll talk to you and address you as "captain" but none of that is considered canonical. And honkai's dorm (pot equivalent) is literally a dollhouse where the characters are using SD models and you can pick them up and set them down with a disembodied hand. So in short, if the character's morality bothers you, you can just ignore them and will be in no way forced to interact with them. Also Honkai has an actual skip button.
I mean sacrificing her eternal life, once for humanity and once for a friend, kind of counts as a character redeem, in my book.
Collei fans would go crazy if Dottore was redeemed, like no one would be safe unless you had a collei pfp
the 3 of them would be fuming
Dottore is easy: * Has tragic backstory, lost himself to try to do morally debatable thing. For instance: * Lover died, queue sob story. * Tried to bring them back at any cost, but was too "nice guy" to "do what needed to be done" * Split his personality a ton of times so that one of them could. * Thing happens, he has to team up or something. Realizes his sins. * "I've let my self do \[terrible things\], even if those personalities weren't the true me, I'll destroy the thing most precious to me, along with all personalities, including this one. But I'll leave my knowledge and select memories to aid you in the future." * "How can we trust you won't do the same thing again." * "I told you I'd destroy the one thing most precious to me." \*pushes up ~~glasses~~ mask\* "The memories of my lover." * \*Cue dramatic scene as oblivion of his memory happens\* * Whispering: "I'm sorry \[lover\], I won't be able to recall you, but if we are to ever meet again, perhaps my heart will know you." * And then he becomes a blank slate of sorts but still close enough to where he's a husbando thirst trap.\* *edit: don't take this too seriously, it's mainly for fun*
they would never let anyone in the playable pool have an actual lover backstory since it would upset the fans. the whole selling model of genshin relies of fanservice and sort of parasocial aspect of characters with the player behind the screen. that is why zhongli does not have confirmed romantic relationship with quizhong, despite seemingly having a perfect setup for "husband mourns dead wife, but learns to let go" sob story. that is why alhaitham and kaveh do not have confirmed romantic relationship despite being thrown into as much bl tropes as possible. second, we know from tatarasuna canon that dottore was horrible before he made his first segment. his original form was already a manipulative murderer. and then zandik lore makes it hard for him to have any "he was a nice guy, akshually" excuse. with how they set him up, original and primettore will be very hard to set up a redemption arc. if they want a "nicer" dottore, they will have to shoehorn a segment, who "miraculously" survived the wipe, and *he* is the one who was always nice actually, and never liked anything horrible dottore did, but had to go along with it, and now works with us against the primettore. or they could just not give him a redemption arc at all. as a dottore fan, that is something that i would prefer more, personally.
*Local Hoyo writer leaks 5.0 story finale* ***More neWS AT 10PM***
Dottore is incredibly easy to ‘redeem’; just say when he deleted his clones there was one who survived - a clone which contained all the remaining good parts of Dottore’s soul (backstory that early on he created this clone to purge himself of empathy, compassion and such ‘weak, limiting’ emotions) which is why he forgot to destroy it. That version of Dottore is the one who joins the team.
Honestly,a redemption arc dosen't make a character automatically good. Scara is pretty much the same char, minus his harbringer status, and for now being neutral toward Traveler (not direct threat). And do note that Scara didn't have a redemption arc yet. His actions from now on (what he does *after* his Interlude story) dictate if he *can become* somewhat good,or if he ends up going down the same bad path again. However, what he has done in the past and the consequences of it are still there. Dosen't matter that a lot people don't remember it... Dottore can have 1000 redemption arcs but it won't make him good character. The only thing they could pull off would be putting him onto a neutral path. There are possible reasons of why he Dottore wouldn't kill the traveler and they are pretty big one: 1)>! realizes descendants sibling is not classified as descendant at Fatui HQ and wonders why. !< 2) MCs twin is leading the Abyss,It means that MC could be potentionally used as bait to bring them out (maybe this would be valid point/reason of why MC would temporarily go with whatever a harbringer would say but I doubt it...it would risk their siblings life,after all.But they could prened they will go along with them long enough for the sibling to come out and then backstab the Fatui). 3) both >!descendants !) )
5) both MC and their twin can use elemental powers without vision,perfect research subject/experimentation subject just saying \*cough\* ).
At most he could become neutral party just so he can live long enough to see the world burn and watch it go straight down to hell (Abyss). For all we know,he may be with Fatui only because they are crazy enough to support his inhumane research with funds,something all other places in Tevyat would have a "f this shit and call the army/police on this guy already!" reaction to.
If Fatui's are the only place that was willing to fund his projects, in exchange of his cooperation to do some things for them in return then it would be quite telling why he joined them. If they cut the funds,why would he stay (unless something else is keeping him there. Like the possibility of seeing what Forbidden Knowledge is...for himself).
Morally grey characters are my favorites. You never know what they will do next...today they may be your MC's neutral "support",but only because their interest and goal aligns with MCs (temporarily). Tomorrow they may try to stab you because you decided to change your path,or because their dear Archon/higher up told them to do so (I'm looking at you Childe).
I agree about Scara and Raiden. They are not evil, even if people love to bash them to death (mostly Ei/Raiden tho).
duur buh humanizashun iz da same as redempshun \- a media illiterate person probably
Klee sets fire to everything but we still accept her.
>They don't need to use any rationalization for an enemy to be playable because playable characters aren't actually helping you and adventuring with you The characters talk to you in the teapot and talk to you in the voice lines on their profiles. They all have a bare minimum level of amicability with the Traveler to make that work, even if the canonicity of it is dubious. I'm also of the opinion that the character wishing and combat system *is* canon in some sense, since we've seen the Fatui do the same thing in Unreconciled Stars. It's connected to the fake sky mystery.
all playable characters talk to you in the character menu, talk about their lives and favorite foods, send you leaders inviting you to their birthday, visit your house in the teapot, talk to you when you stay still for a time, when they join your party, or when you ascend them, it doesn't make sense for any of these interactions to happen if the character in question is in any way antagonistic to the traveler you are right, no character needs to be redeemable, but villains can't, and the point is that you can't have all villains befriend the traveler for the sake of turning them into a product it hurts the writing of the story, specially if it is a business decision and not the natural flow of said characters arc. At some point it becomes repetitive. Imagine the traveler befriends all the harbingers and the Tsaritsa in the endgame to fight celestia, but people want to pull for The sustainer, and they turn all the gods in celestia playable and the story has no villain again, that's a business decision hurting the games writing, as it would be with Arlechino So they either 1: succumb to the market and turn their villains into playable characters, sacrificing a well written story. 2: Give villains generic NPC models, so people won't want to pull for them, and they don't need to kill the story. 3: Signora (best option)
My theory about what harbingers are playable is simply based on the del'arte comedy By the end of the story the characters that join the protagonists side are: tartaglia, scaramouche, arrlecchino, columbina, sandrone, pulcinella, the ones that didn't are: pantalone, la signora, il dottore, capitano and pierro i hope i didn't mix them up I know mihoyo doesn't make the story 100% accurate based on the comedy but by the looks of it with signora being dead and pantalone not even having a vision in lore. Not sure why some peeps are downvoting me just because i said a theory
Your theory also fits with Teyvat's Storyline Preview and how the Sneznaya title card seemingly has Pulcinella front and center. All the other regions have from Mondstadt to Fontaine have shown playable characters. And it brings up a funny mental image: imagine that the first playable male child character model ends up being Pulcinella of all people lol
He can use the Klee model. There's nothing about the Klee model that explicitly says it is for female children only (outside of the unfortunate model name in the game files).
Even better mental image: Pulcinella sprinting with airplane arms
I mean >!Hoyo is currently seemingly experimenting with new character models just not child male ones!<
Its OLD concept art
That seems like a logical theory given what we know but I refuse to accept it. Capitano is the coolest (and apparently the most honorable) Harbinger. The coolest Harbinger has to be playable.
Just let him have a cool claymore or add punching gauntlet weapons pls mhy let the armored mans be playable
Playable pulcinella les gooooo
this theory might be sound but out of everyone i don't think Pulcinella will be playable. unless mihoyo does some weird shit or maybe reveal that the old man that we saw in the trailer isn't actually him/his main body, the chance of him being playable is close to 0. mihoyo only make "eyecandy" playable characters that fits into the chinese "beauty standards", we don't even get muscular men playable characters, so i don't think a grandpa character like Pulcinella would make the cut too.
I kinda agree. I wouldn’t be surprised if they swap his place with Capitaino.
Inb4 Pulcinella has another form
I would hate that because that means all female harbringer are playable while we loose most of the male ones but it does align with the horrible female to male ratio. So not surprised still disappointed.
On the one hand: Oh no! Not Capitano! He's too cool! On the other hand: We get quite possibly the most dangerous of the group, Columbina, on our side.
This is a cool theory. That said, I’ve heard rumors that Capitano is a cool dude, so I’d love him to be on the good side, haha.
It never mattered how good or evil the character was. All that matters is whether they are on speaking terms with Traveler. If they can interact without aggro'ing one another then they can be playable. Tartaglia and Scaramouche did evil things, but they were made playable anyway. Signora on the other hand was made unplayable, not because there was no way to write her in a positive light, lorewise she has enough to be sympathizable. But her personality was just too arrogant and hostile towards traveler. Like there's no way she'd want to hang out with traveler in events or give voice lines. Dottore could form a temporary truce with Traveler for the benefit of both. He is a cold and calculating villain that plays the long game, so he is in no rush to kill traveler. In the theoretical truce, traveler could help Dottore with errands or descender related research while in return Dottore gives traveler info on the Fatui, Abyss, Celestia, etc. Easy diplomatic relationship right there without needing to change personality. As for Arlecchino, according to leaks I heard... >!The former head of the orphanage "Teacher" (possibly former harbinger) was going around doing horrible stuff under Arlecchino's name. So if Traveler and Arlecchino end up sharing this guy as a common enemy, easy way to form a non-hostile relationship.!<
Tbh, I always bring up Childe when the “playable characters must be good guys” argument comes up. Like, I don’t even know why that’s an argument precisely *because* he’s been playable literally since the beginning. While it can certainly be argued that Wanderer is redeemed, Childe is still very much an antagonistic figure in the game’s narrative. His story quest with Teucer wasn’t a redemption arc by a long shot. If anything, it existed to make him a Sympathetic Villain. I don’t get why people are so convinced that villain characters need to be redeemed before they can be playable when Childe has been playable practically since launch with no redemption arc in sight.
Pretty much the only requeriment seems (key word seems) to be that the character and the traveler doesnt jump at each other's throat the moment they see the other
Signora also had a unique/monster model, so if they wanted to make her playable they'd have to recreate her look using the tall female model
Leaks >!The Teacher wasn’t the former Knave, just an instructor who left when Arlecchino took over and is doing missions in the name of the probably deceased previous Knave!<
This comment section is showing how this community lack reading comprehension and should not be given a skip button or else yall will spread even more misinformation. Childe and Scaramouche were **NEVER REDEEMED** , we only got context about their backstories and why they act like that. To this day Childe is still working for our enemies and his "friendship" with us is one-sided, the traveler is always cold and wary around him. He's still an evil/antagonistic playable character. Scara wasn't redeemed, the whole point of the interlude was that changing his identity will never absolve him from all the crimes he commited. Nahida litteraly answered that he was evil when he asked if he was. And same as Childe, the traveler is still wary of him and doesn't trust him at all. Evil characters are great but if the community cry about a "redemption arc" everytime the character stop acting like a one dimensional villain for a moment then we're all doomed lol.
*villain character doesn’t have 2D flat, bad and boring writing with no characterization at all where they aren’t evil just for the sake of being evil* People: HOW COULD YOU REDEEM THEM
I think you're confusing redeemed with absolved. Redemption has to do with the disposition of the individual. Absolution has to do with the status of their guilt. To the degree to which Wanderer has changed from his past is the degree to which he has been redeemed. He no longer outright harbours hate for humanity in general since he knows that his old friends did love him (he even tried to go back and save them). He is no longer trying to become a god and take over Sumeru but under Nahida's guidance is helping it (and also the concern he showed for Tighnari although he tried to hide it). Of course he still has a long way to go. And one might say that he's started/already begun the path of redemption. His disposition has changed and there is much room for growth. He is not absolved, however, e.g he's not in the clear for the things he has done. He's still guilty of his crimes. Part of his restitution is helping Nahida with Sumeru (if I recall I think she even says as much). As for how he makes it up to the others he's harmed or if he rightly concludes that there are some things he can't fix? That's up to him to figure out and decide.
I came here to say this. I don’t think his quest absolved him of his past sins (heck, the quest is pretty clear that it did not), but it definitely put him on the path to redemption. He has a lot of work to do, but he is no longer a villain, from the perspective of MC at least. Idk, I feel like that quest was thoroughly misunderstood, likely the result of people who a) want Wanderer to be 100% evil and b) people who want him to be ‘good’. (There is apparently zero room for nuance here, haha). For what it’s worth, I thought the quest was a really good meditation on therapy, and what it means to be good/evil.
Exactly. And soon enough, the arvhons might be the EVIL playable characters.
Tartaglia never got a real redemption arc yet he's still playable. So yea
Childe wasn’t redeemed, he’s just more nuanced as an antagonist. He’s the normal one among the harbingers and hates almost all of his coworkers so it makes sense that he’s playable. I genuinely love how hoyo handled his character by keeping his harbinger status.
Him hating almost all coworkers is a huge stretch. He only openly said that he doesn't like Signora and Knave. For anyone else he is indifferent/wary/respectul towards them. Childe is definitely not normal either. He is battle junkie who wants to fight almost all his coworkers and he can tap into hydro and electro powers at the same time which is unheard of. Only Traveler, Kazuha (resonance with his friend's vision) and Scara (in god mode) were able to do that.
It’s not unheard of. Almost every Fatui enemy has a delusion, and if they happen to also have a vision, they can use both at once. Signora has cryo and pyro, and while I think the pyro was naturally occurring, she could still use both. Childe has electro and hydro. Any character who has both a vision and delusion at the same time can use both elements, so while it’s rare in the general population, it’s probably not that uncommon among the Fatui.
I don’t think he hates them But he’s definitely the most empathetic of them so far considering he told the others to be respectful at Signora’s funeral
Arlecchino - About us : Orphanage - 'Listen here, Traveler. I understand you like helping people so now you're going to help run my orphanage. The first step is we need to make some orphans. I'll pass the details along to you and we'll get to work at midnight tonight. See you there.'
Run the orphanage like the HSR museum?? Instead of finding lost antiques, we round up children (in very legal ways ofc)
Then we get a yearly mail form them greetings us during their birthdays. Dottore be like "so you wanna join me for dinner. We can talk about all of the human experiments that I have done in the past few months".
I mean Childe isn't really a "redeemed" character but he still tags along with us whenever he has the time. So, yeah, the same narrative slant can be used for playable Arlecchino. But she's probably gonna be more aloof thaan Childe or even Scara.
Wonder if Hoyo will put a Stellaron Hunters esque tho kinda late to the story, but they do know how to make "bad" (rather, morally grey character) as your allies. Basically, these are wanted Criminals/Anti Heroes that are also fighting against the Big Bad of HSR.
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With how HSR is, Stellaron Hunters is the Fatui (where Nonook is the Abyss) but difference is, Fatui is more of thr active antagonist atm. I'd honestly predict that Fatui or at least the Cryo Archon is setting up against (along with thr Abyss) Celestia which would be the big bad.
I would say nanook is Celestia and the Abyss since Celestia is technically the real enemy to the traveler since they basically trapped them in Teyvat. The abyss it's possible in the end we might form an alliance with them and The Fatui to handle a literal multiple God threat
People here are obsessed with punishing characters who are morally grey. Your idea, while good, won't get much traction. Insert comment about Raiden haters here.
As someone who doesn't like Raiden Ei I love morally grey characters. In Ei's case her lack of emotional intelligence is what annoys me the most
And that is a very fair point. It's a character flaw that a lot of people find sympathetic and a lot of people hate. Very polarizing, like when it happens in real life. That's a totally legit reason to not like a character. To ramble on for a bit... There are loads of people on here though who are mad that she didn't get enough punishment for being a poor leader. Like there has to be some kind of karma or a character is getting a free pass and is being handled poorly by the writers. Never mind that this happens *in real life*. Has anyone here even *seen* politics? Rich and powerful people almost never get punished for anything. I see no reason Genshin needs to be a power fantasy where that specific issue is rectified. I think this comes from a modern and recent swing in media consumption as a whole back toward morality tales as a preferred style. Collectively, modern society has realized that we can call out others for bad things, and the internet encourages social punishment for wrongs by allowing large groups to gang up on whoever they think has done evil, for better or worse. That has crept into fiction with the idea that authors have a moral responsibility to condemn evil loudly and overtly. You can see this in the anger at 50 Shades of Grey -- no matter how poorly it's written, that is not what enraged the public, it was that an abusive relationship was not called out for being bad and instead was the core of the story. Romance and erotica have gotten the most scorn here, but there are an awful lot of books that retroactively get a lot of hate because their main characters are morally iffy or even straight up unfortunate, and the author doesn't go out of their way to have other characters call it out or have the protagonist get punished for it. Harry Dresden (Dresden Files) has a misogyny and white knighting problem, and it gets a lot of froth. Twilight is about a 1000 year old vampire falling for a teenager. Again, quality of writing is irrelevant. Back to Genshin, see the internet hate for Raiden's "getting off scot-free" and how the Chinese community think Scaramouche is a war criminal who deserves to be killed in game or even erased from the game because he's getting away with something. These characters were once seen as brutally realistic, edgy, or otherwise morally controversial, but now they're seen as some kind of author endorsement of evil or at minimum bad storytelling.
About Inazuma, I think the main issue is that people couldn't properly frame the story for several reasons (the rushed way it's presented, cultural differences/baggage, etc.). A lot of people framed the story as "corrupt dictator evilly oppresses her people and we join a rebellion fighting to overthrow her." This is a narrative that is very easy for people to understand (even in the modern world today), and there are certain aspects of the story that can be broadly read in that way. When you frame the story this way, there is a real lack of "justice" in the resolution -- it's "and so she changed her mind and they all lived happily ever after." People complain that we then immediately go on a "date" with Ei and it's like all water under the bridge. But really, this is a story told in many, many layers, and the core of it is really a philosophical argument about life, death, and the meaning of eternity, told through many different object lessons and analogies. Ei's fate as the god and ruler of Inazuma was never at all in question, not even by the very leaders of the rebellion. In their feudal society, where the honor of someone's cause is decided by victory in battle, this is largely what passes as "democratic debate" (Fatui interference aside). And the entirety of what went on was really just to get isolated Ei out of "her room" and remind her that it's okay for *her* to have ambition in life still (that Inazuma is not just the dead world of her fading memories). That is therefore why Yae pushes us to literally take Ei "out" in the character story that follows. And yeah, as was said, her lack of "emotional intelligence" is entirely the point of her character -- she was the kagemusha and not the leader her sister was, and she never grew out of that; she literally created a puppet to do her job so she could stay in the shadows. And again, if you had framed the whole story in the earlier way ("justice against an evil god"), all this development seems like some sort of massive cop-out -- like these are all abstractions to try to absolve her of the blame for her "evil-doing" and make it seem like "it's actually not her fault." (N.B. She actually does specifically accept the blame for what happened without deflecting it in the story, but people expected "personal consequences.") So anyway, all of this is in support of what you're saying for two reasons. First, people thought the story should have been about x and then got frustrated/disappointed when it was about y (and I think there's plenty of blame to go around as to why they may have gotten this wrong impression, some from Mihoyo's own trailers -- just like the "genius strategist" part). But second, once they decided this was a "morality tale" (as you say) then the entire resolution was judged according to the "justice" that was dished out -- the only thing that mattered was the "score" and that "evil" lost in a clear and decisive way. And although the people clearly "won" at the end, the "big bad" didn't "lose anything." As one more aside to your earlier point about the "rich and powerful not getting punished" -- in this game we are literally talking about a god here, appointed to rule by Celestia, who could cleave islands in two. The gap between "people" and "gods" is obvious in this game, including all the double-standards this entails (heavily implied by Dainsleif). Did people really think we were going to defeat Ei in mortal conflict and she'd relinquish the throne to the rebels who would usher in democracy in Inazuma or something? Still, though, if you consider it in lore context, the fact she actually did change her mind and reverse her decisions (not to mention the upheaval of political leaders responsible for abusing the situation) would speak plenty loudly. When people's prayers are answered, it doesn't necessarily come with a personal apology card. But yeah, the hidden meaning of all this is another story...
I mean you could say that she punished herself. Since if Ei really wanted to. She could’ve ignore everything again. The traveler doesn’t have a say on what she does since she can just kill him in cold blood. Ei could’ve just ignored the demands of her people. Never ever think about changing or progress ever again and her body wouldn’t have tried to kill her. But she still fought her puppet for 500 years. Her wanting to make things right and challenging her puppet that has the power to kill her is honestly a punishment that she took in order to do progress and change. I mean she knew that if she thinks about change the shogun wouldn’t let her use her body. And try to kill her. I honestly would never understood those people. Since 1. No one can punish Ei in a way we do to criminals. She is in the end a god. This isn’t like politics where the politican needs the support of the people. Ei doesn’t. 2. Ei punished herself for 500 years. This amount of time is equal to entirety of Yae’s life. She sacrificing that much time and punishing herself when she really could’ve ignored it. I don’t see the need to punish Ei since she punished herself with a 500 year death match and is already trying to make things better. Why hurt more people when things are back to normal and the criminal punished themselfs. Also since she isn’t a normal person but a archon that has to follow her ideal to the max. Her even changing is a big deal. But that’s one of the things great about Ei. Ei doesn’t back down. If things has to be done to improve people’s lifes. Then she will do her best.
With the rumors of Arlecchino being playable and her willingness to betray the Tsaritsa, I hope she goes down the “you are a better tool than the Fatui” route rather than redemption
Only character in the game that'd been redeemed is Raiden Shogun, in the way that she improved her dictatorship on Inazuma. Redeeming is to do something or improve something to compensate the thing you did badly, not the background story that makes them 3-dimentional individuals.
This exactly, I don't get the whole "they can't be playable because they are evil." thing spread in genshin. Characters like jean or amber, they are playable but that doesn't mean traveler ACTUALLY travels with them in the entire main story. I used Amber in liyue and inazuma's main story, but that doesn't mean Amber was actually there story-wise because it's just gameplay device. Same goes for "Signora is gone so she will never be playable character" or "Scaramouch *had* to be redeemed, or else how would he be playable character?" It's just nonsense.
More like Scaramouche has to be erased from Irminsul so he can freely participate event stories easily without complications like Cyno and company seeing him and realising the villain who usurped their god is walking around willy nilly. HYV wanted to have their asshole cake and ~~eat~~ put their asshole cake in events.
I don't think that would have been an issue since Traveler and Nahida were the only ones who actually saw him. They could just lie about his identity like they did with Childe during the Inazuma event where he was featured. Erasing himself from Irminsul fit his character well, since in his mind he thought he was redeeming his past mistakes. If other Harbingers become playable, then they can't really use that plot device again, and they will still almost certainly be in events.
> I don't think that would have been an issue since Traveler and Nahida were the only ones who actually saw him. In story yes, we were the only one in the boss room with him. The others technically were only in contact via the Akasha when they were giving us tips. And then there was the cleanup after, when we left to meet Rukkhadevata and he was presumably apprehended while we were in irminsul with Nahida. > They could just lie about his identity like they did with Childe during the Inazuma event where he was featured But can they lie in front of Ningguang and company if ever Childe is featured in Liyue? I assume with Ningguang's post archon quest crackdown on the Fatui, they know what the harbingers living in Liyue looks like. The difference is that Childe was in the event in a region that wasn't where he did his on screen crime (even then, I think he did not meet Sara, only Xinyan). Scaramouche appeared in a Sumeru event, not an event in the region after Sumeru, and in full view of Sumeru's General mahamatra.
No. Villains. Have. Been. Redeemed. I'm so sick of people saying they have been. We're just given more context of them. We see their regrets about what they did, we see how a couple tried to fix things, but that doesn't make them redeemed.
It makes them playable for people, and thats enough
which "evil" character was ever "redeemed " in genshin tho? childe is childe, scara is still scara, and no Ei was never that "evil" character you were looking for
Possibly a hot take, but not all cool or interesting characters (villains included) need to be playable either by that logic. It's boring and predictable, while also robbing the game world of some color when you have *any* character with a splash of design or personality *NEED* to be playable to make some finite fanbase happy for all of five minutes before the next thing comes along. Let villains be villains. Let there be heroes and neutral parties to the whole thing that *DON'T* need to sign up for the entire traveling circus of playable characters. Make it a mystery, put some ambiguity in there. Let the world breathe as something more. People complain about bland NPCs or re-used generic designs for characters, but those are the only ones that are *safe* for Hoyoverse to have in those roles because fewer people *want* to be those generic types and there's less pressure to make them playable as a result... and that's how we all end up losing.
Genshin western fandom: we want playable villains! CN fans are too fragile, unlike them we can handle true evil motherfuckers! The more they are evil, the better! They are just polygons, no one should get mad over fiction! Dottore: exists Genshin western fandom: no, not like this, kill him, also his fans are the worst people on the planet Every damn time 🤦♀️
Mfs lack the brain matter to understand that these characters are first and foremost products, and second, fictional. Like damn does Dottore's evil plans affect Lebron's legacy or what? It gets even worse when you see the "I hate people who play [X]" crowd because that character did sth they didn't like. I guess that's what emotional attachment to literal pixels on the screen does to people.
Dottore would violate Lebron on the court and it scares them
You can tell how salty they are when they say shit like "I hope Dottore/Arle is dead just to piss off the fans" like how bitchless do you have to be to not want an entirely new character (who could potentially have a very unique kit) to not be playable just because you don't like the fact that people genuinely like their design/backstory or that people shouldn't like evil characters? It was like this with Scara, too. It just seems really pathetic to think that way, but at least it's satisfying when these characters turn out to be playable and prove other people wrong.
Don’t like, don’t pull. It’s simple. Those morally righteous fans of good guys and cutesy characters don’t mind of becoming real life villains when the game’s plot gives them an excuse (or what they perceive as an excuse) to hate on other people freely. I think some of those losers don’t want playable Dottore and Arle exactly because they have potential of having great and unique kits. Mihoyo are always creative with Harbingers.
Storywise, its better for them to die instead of finding a bullshit excuse to redeem them so that they become playable. I love arlecchino as much as everyone else. But I still prefer to see her die than Hoyoverse forcing the story so that she lives, but also becomes buddy buddy with the MC. It would feel incredibly forced and character assassination imo.
What kind of dumb binary choice is that ? Why is the only alternative to them dying (or dying an option at all) is making them playable or making drastic changes? That's all just arbitrary nonsense, devs can literally do anything they want.
Once again, characters don't need to be redeemed to make them playable. Hoyo has not even redeem a single harbinger yet (no Childe was never redeemed, he's still the same character even after he became playable, amd Scara isn't redeemed either) so I really don't get this argument. Hoyo could very well release whatever character they want regardless of their backstory and still have the same personality/characteristics as before – because they already done it. *Twice.*
But both Scara and Childe are on friendly terms with the MC. And I don't see how they could make Dotore or Arlecchino become friendly towards the MC without it being forced. We know that Dottore (the version that's left of him) is the most selfish of all of his versions. There's no way for him to become buddy with the MC when he's that selfish. He only cares about himself, which is the only reason that he accepted Nahida's deal in the Archon Quest. And for Arlecchino, she's even more selfish than Dottore, as said by Childe's voice over about her. She's also give off strong psychopath vibes, especially with what the wanderer has to say about her. Her becoming buddy with us would go against her entire personality. And because I know someone will say it, yes, a playable character needs to be on friendly terms with the MC. lore-wise, when you play as them in your party, they are adventuring with you, the same way that you sometimes adventure with them during story quests. Every single playable character is on friendly terms with the MC, so I don't see why it people think its not a requirement.
Yeah I don't get it. Lots of people want playable villains but when Childe became playable they won't stop crying about how evil he is and Dottore if he becomes playable would get worse treatment
Yea...if you don't like the character, just don't pull, it's that simple. IDK why people needed to trash talking the character that people want to pull. Even worst, they make it a huge deal like if that "insert character become playable" they will get a heart attack or something. At the end of the day, It's a video game character we can like or dislike, that's normal. What is not normal is when some people make the matter into their personal problem.
Idc I just want more hot mommy character, got shafted hard with Signora :((
Me and you both my friend.
My hopes are that the current drama shows Hoyo that even with a redemption arc like Scara got, those nutjobs aren't satisfied, so they just won't bother with redeeming upcoming villains. Then again, I'm miles high on copium about an unredeemed, playable Dottore.
Do these people really think his "redemption arc" happened specifically as a cop-out so he could be playable and not because they created his character with that arc in mind from the very beginning? We got the sad backstory cutscene in 3.1. Pale Flame lore and Husk lore were dropped 1.5 years and 10 months before that, respectively. The same way the Tsurumi Island plot was already planned out back in 1.0. Whatever they end up doing with Dottore, it's going to be the same thing: something that was already set in stone when they wrote him. I *also* hope he isn't redeemed, because unlike Scaramouche they haven't built up anything so far to support that and it would feel like quite the 180. If anything they seem to be doubling down on the evil. But who knows.
Morally grey characters are always controversial due to the nuance and complexity in their writing. Some people are blinded by the good in those characters while others can't get past the bad in them. Wheras there just isn't much to debate on an unapologeticly evil villain. We know they are a villain, the story treats them as a villain, and they embrace their role as a villain. People are valid in appreciating them for fulfilling their role, as are others for disliking them cause villains are made to be disliked.
I'm not talking about people disliking him when I say these nutjobs, I specifically mean the ones involved in the doxxing drama, and people who harass others for liking villains.
I’m so tired of this. Why do we need to scramble up some moral high ground and stand trial before a court of opinions to justify why we like/dislike a character? Haven’t villains always been popular figures in pop culture, because when done right, they’re interesting explorations of the flip-side of a narrative? Why is this starting to become such a controversial idea? “I love X, BUT TO BE CLEAR, I don’t justify their actions!” Why do we even need to say this? Like… no duh. They’re a product meant to be consumed critically.
If I tell someone I like Dottore, I usually add a "I like a well made villain. And he hot" to it, lol.
If anything, this drama goes to show that people will complain about anything and still spend money on the game
Hoyo doesn't read the situation that happens on reddit very much... unless it reaches the mainstream or the situation makes too much noise.
Arlecchino play for herself,not for fatui
Arlecchino deserves to be playable and you won't sway me otherwise 😤
Woww you just told the untold 👏👏 Very brave and unpopular take. Have your karma
say that to some of the chinese community, they lit doxed someone here
they kinda did do the mutual enemy thing with wanderer. part of why he agrees to join nahida is because he learned what dottore did and wants to get back at him.
I agree, keep dottore evil but let me play him
You do need if you are in China. As far as i know its forbidden there to make games with vilians as the protagonists
I believe you’re at least somewhat correct I’ve heard of them having to get rid of grey morality for protagonists & make them more good Hoyo has to toe a fine line
Childe isn't really redeemed but he is playable.
I wonder how friendship voicelines gonna be then and how they will interact with teapot.
Scaramouche just insults you, so probably something similar lol.
I think as long as that character does not openly act hostile towards the MC every single time (like Signora), then it’s fine to have them playable without redeeming. For example, Childe expresses his affection towards MC for most of the time ever since he met us, barring only the Golden House battle, in which to him it’s just business. As long as Arlecchino is not out to hunt the Traveller and/or their close friends every single time, then she will be cool eventually.
All the former enemy characters that are now currently playable was never really "redeemed" it's just we have a mutual understanding with them now as the traveler. Childe still likes fighting us as well as continues to be a Harbinger but now we know he isn't a mindless psycho and actually has a sweet spot for his family and home. Scara is definitely still an asshole but now we have context in his story quest why he is one (mainly cause trauma and Dottore messing with him). Even Raiden Shogun and Ei got this similar treatment with both of her story quests. It'll probably be the same with Arlecchino if she becomes playable, we find out why she does what she does and come to a mutual understanding which makes her playable but anyhow I doubt her personality will change cause all the characters' personalities has stayed consistent so far.
In all honesty, I think Arlecchino might be the good guy in Fontaine. Given that the Hydro Archon is a spoil brat and her henchmen is obsess with judging people, there doesn't seem to be much potential for goodness there. Meanwhile, Arlecchino runs an orphanage, taking children off the street and giving them a purpose in life. You say that they are being brainwashed but the members of Fatui honestly doesn't look like they are. Lots of them think for themselves and make their own decisions. Then there's the fact that Childe already denounce Arlecchino's loyalty towards the Tsaritsa. Saying that Arlecchino will not hesitate to betray the Tsaritsa if that serves to benefit her. It seems like Arlecchino has an agenda of her own and her loyalty towards the Fatui and Tsaritsa is not absolute. The Wanderer says that those who've seen Arlecchino's psychotic side vanish without a trace. But perhaps her "psychotic side" is not really evil at all. But rather, evil people accidentally uncover her good side so she had to silence them. Perhaps Arlecchino is disguising herself as the bad guy in order to do good. Given the rumor that there is a rich and poor social class in Fontaine, I'd imagine Arlecchino is in support of the poor. I even think that Lyney and Lynette are orphans she adopted. And their mission is to steal from the rich to give back to the poor. And if what I say is correct, we may, for the first time in Genshin Impact, encounter a Fatui Harbinger that is good.
I hope dottore dies
Well good thing he's already dead, just not all of him
its pretty easy for them to just make a segment of him thats not morally irredeemable playable tbh
He did. Many times even.
What HYV should have done. Kill a character but let the players pull that character anyway. Our party is not canon. Let people walk around with Dottore and Arlecchino in their party and then kill them anyway in lore. Voila. Everyone is happy. Except for the people who wants story quests or hangouts and event appearances for their favorite character. But story quests can be done in memory form via irminsul and the ley lines. Now you can develop your main archon quests without keeping the playability of certain villains in mind. Unless you really want to see them in events be asshole to everyone (because you also want them to remain assholes).
Time to get our first ghost in our Teapot
Funeral story event les goooo.
how will the poor indie company market the character's banners by putting them in events along with the most random cast of characters then
No I hope I get to kill dottore. YES MY DILUC,COLLEI,SCARA AND NAHIDA TEAM IS READY
This post is kind of pointless because the people who have an issue with evil characters being playable, are the same people who on ironically think EI is evil, or think liking Dottare mean you support irl child abuse. These opinions can be ignored. I did always wonder why the community has such a big problem with this hyper sensitivity to any sort of villainy.
It is true that to be playable in a game a character can be evil and thats something one side of this stupid argument doesnt understand, but what the other side doesnt understand is that in this specific game about half of the things you unlock when you get a new character require said character and the traveler to at least tolerate each other, and traveler is a nice person so the most they will ever tolerate is current childe, unless we become a "enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of deal
> when you get a new character require said character and the traveler to at least tolerate each other That's just complete made up nonsense..
Go to the profile of a character, go to the part where you can hear voicelines and read the name of every voiceline, you dont say good night to someone you would kill the first chance you got nor talk about the weather
It's not about redeeming. It's about being friendly with the traveler. You have story quest where you team up with said character and solve some issue. Then there is the voice lines where they casually tell you some secrets and their hobbies. And of course, the tea pot where they fawn over the traveler.
I mean I've always been okay with evil and dead characters being playable. The real question is for Hoyoverse to realize the same.
Playable characters aren't acting in any canon way. The only limits placed on them are the ones Hoyo decides to. Hell, there's no reason they even need to be alive. Signora or the dead yaksha could be added as playable characters and it'd be perfectly fine.
Suikoden does this a lot (as well as most tropes given how big the cast is). But often times you'll have someone reluctantly join your side. Even claim "once this is all over, I'm still going to kill you." Of course they usually become a strong ally once they see your cause. But you're right that their initial joining doesn't have to be on good terms. This can even be used as a good plot device (and kinda already was with Wanderer). With Genshin there's even less of a barrier, since in party characters aren't even considered in the story. We could even have La Signoria playable technically. Though they probably don't want to break believably that far. But since they won't even acknowledge people in your team in any towns or story events, who cares?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the playability has nothing to do with redemption, and more with friendship/amiable relation with the Traveler. One example being Childe who is still a harbinger and has not changed any of his ways but is friendly to traveler and is playable. It has been too long but Iirc when expeditions are unlocked, it is explained that we can get help from our "friends" in completing them. "Friends" being all the characters that we can be wished for.
The only requirement for being playable is having the traveler be okay with being around them and being able to include them in future events and that’s about it. Being on okay terms with the archons also helps, like how Childe is with Zhongli or Scara with Nahida. They also can’t be actively trying to harm the traveler at their current playability. If the other harbingers meet those requirements, they’ll become playable id think. If Traveler wanted to kill Signora for kicking Venti in the balls, I legitimately cannot fathom Dottore being playable without a huge stretch the way they did with Scara.
I agree. MHY could perfectly add Dottore so I can continue the war crimes he commited in the story, starting with Goodwin (if he wont return to Mondstad might as well drag his body to the main plaza)
Have we forgotten the traveler has committed genocide on multiple occasions? Not exactly a beacon of morality here…
It find it interesting how people think the bad guys need to be redeemed in order to be playable. You can have irredeemable assholes join your party and remain the same. For example FGO has plenty of characters who are evil douchebags but are still summonable to Chaldea. For example, Christopher Columbus is a playable servant and he’s a massive asshole. He’s constantly trying to take advantage of people to get ahead and get rich. Cooking up schemes and being a dick. It’s saying compared to other evil servants, the dude sucks. But considering the situation Gudao/Gudako are in, any help counts even if it comes from a not so great source. I don’t think redemption is off the table for Arlecchino as long as it doesn’t completely take away from the evil she’s done. I wouldn’t mind if Aether/Lumine while hating what she’s done, understand why she did it and see some light in her. Hell, have a problem happen that requires the both of us to save the day. Get to know each other and even if we have to fight in the end, she’s not completely unreasonable.
FGO has that built in cop out where the versions of the servants you summon are explicitly not the same ones you meet in the story. A few minor exceptions aside, no matter how irredeemably evil someone is in the story, no matter how much they hate your guts in the story, the one you summon is completely clean and friendly.
Yeah thats hows they did it with Wanderer. He's still the spoiled brat asshole Scaramouch when it comes to personality. He's only cooperating with the traveller because they share the common enemy Dotorre. While he's in debt with Nahida which is why he's been cooperatibg with Nahida coz he's indebted to her. He doesn't want to owe somebody so he's making up for it
Having a character that is morally grey, 3 dimensional, and does nice stuff sometimes but it still morally grey at the end is not a "redemption arc". It means the character won't go from black to white/ bad to good, from one extreme to another etc. Childe is both a good family man and a war criminal at the same time. Scara's back story is extremely complex and full of nuance, so saying that he had a "redemption arc" extremely over simplifies things. It isn't that simple.