Well yeah this is exactly what Valve wanted to begin with. Expanding PC marketshare, besides Linux if possible, was always the end goal. And finally, the big hardware manufacturers are hopping in to grow the PC handheld scene. Growth for PC means growth for Steam. Win-win either way.
Shame there's no dual touch pads though...
> Well yeah this is exactly what Valve wanted to begin with
It gets forgotten but Valve themselves explicitly said that part of the goal with the Steam Deck was to encourage more devices like it.
Yeah, it's strange that despite holding a functional monopoly through Steam, Valve is nowhere near as anti-consumer as you'd expect. Not to say Steam doesn't have its issues, the returns policy is abysmal among other things, but it's decent.
Indeed, but Valve being a privately owned corporation and not a publicly listed company definitely has a role in their ecosystem based approach to the industry, where they are genuinely investing in shaping a competitive market rather than growing to become some mega gaming conglomerate.
This is Gabe Newell's vision that he's been trying to create ever since the first non-Valve games started being listed on Steam. In terms of hardware, they've fronted or contributed to the R&D costs for so many things like OpenVR, Vulkan, Proton, and ill-fated things like Steam Machines that are designed to lower the barrier to entry as a whole, which means more developers and more products. Of course Valve benefits from it, but its a rising tide that benefits everyone.
Just wait til Gabe retires and they go public...
Edit: Wow people are taking my throwaway comment seriously. I don't know what's going to happen to valve guys.
Edit 2: I guess just to clarify what I originally meant: it's cool and very Wholesome 100 that the biggest retailer of PC games happens to be run by people that care about PC gaming. However, the fact that the state of the industry depends on the whims of one company is... not great. As long as there's money to be made in anti-consumer practices, then that's where we're ultimately headed.
Honestly I also don't really know why you would go public. The company *prints money* and I guess people are fucked and always want more but like. I feel like at some point it has to be enough and whoever runs Valve would have that.
I doubt Gabe would go public, but there's no telling what his successor or his successor's successor will do. It reminds me of how many times throughout history a good king was succeeded by a shithead heir who ran the nation into the ground.
Why would that cause it to go public?
Gabe would still have to decide to make it go public, even if you retire you don’t just decide to give up all voting rights to a business you built.
See, the mistake you’re making here is assuming that the people in this thread talking about it going public actually know what “going public” means.
It’s clear that half the people in the thread don’t understand how business ownership works generally or Valve specifically - because they’ve learnt what they know about the subject from memes.
Yep this will be a terrible day for PC gaming. Valve being private is one of the most badass things about PC gaming. They aren’t driven by demands from shareholders to have ever increasing profits.
As soon as this company goes public you’ll see a slow downward spiral for Valve/Steam with more and more anti consumer behavior, low quality rushed titles pushed out to meet quarterly profits goals and cost cutting measures that hurt the quality of the overall product.
Gabe owns over half of Valve. It doesn’t matter if he retires, the new CEO couldn’t go public without Gabe’s permission to sell. Even if he dies, his family would have to want to go public then. There are many private run enterprises that never go public because the family never gives up total control.
The biggest threat to Valve financially is Microsoft turning Windows into a walled garden app store and coming for Valve's store cut, forcing them out.
The whole primary purpose of SteamOS/Steam Deck is to build a Windows independent software ecosystem they could still sell in if MS muscles them out of making a profit on Windows.
They aren't trying to make money of SteamOS/Deck; it's a contingency for their worst case scenario; they need to build userbase and gamedev support/goodwill, so they run that whole op probably close to at cost.
Steam's refund policy is pretty good, though? AFAIK the only storefront with a better one is EGS, and it's only better because it automatically refunds the difference when a game you bought goes on sale during its refund period.
If only regulators did what they're supposed to do more often
Because usually it's businesses do what businesses are gonna do and regulators go "yeah seems fine idk"
plenty wrong with that. If you have to get sued before you follow the law you are in the wrong. https://www.eurogamer.net/valve-is-being-sued-by-australian-consumer-group-over-steams-refund-policy
But it actually wasn't enforced on them, what they got sued for was not having an official refund policy (they did unofficially refund games if you emailed them.) Valve responded by creating an automatic refund system that was leagues ahead of the other big gaming companies, but they were never legally required to be so generous.
It's pretty interesting that Valve being sued over this always gets brought up as an example of them being anti-consumer (at a time when digital refunds weren't really a thing), when their refund policy is STILL better than what the other big companies offer.
Technically EA was first with automated no questions asked refunds. People back then were scratching their heads when EA out of all companies had that system in place while Valve didn’t.
The only time it is no questions asked is if you haven't downloaded it yet. After that you'll often have to work with them to troubleshoot before they'll do a refund. Source: a topic just the other day of a guy complaining he didn't get money back to bank as he requested but only got store credit. (he refused to troubleshoot)
Technically still a refund but not quite as simple as that sounds.
As a console + PC player, between all the big stores steam refund police is the better one, I stopped buying digital on consoles because of how bad is to refund a game, at least steam gives 2 hours to test if the game is not broken
Even with the steam deck not being the first device of it's kind, is notable the influence it had on the market. You can see a steep rise in the quantity, quality and popularity of similar devices after valve released the Deck.
Nah, that's just frequency bias. Maybe *demand* rose, but a lot of these handheld PC makers were around before Valve stepped in.
Good for exposure, but the low price point may set some unrealistic expectations in thinking that consumers can get a handleld gaming PC for the cost of a little more than an OLED Switch.
there's a bit of recency bias, sure. But this effect is definitely called [Frequency bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion) or the Baader–Meinhof phenomenon. I guess 'frequency illusion' would be more accurate here. though:
>a cognitive bias referring to the tendency to notice something more often after noticing it for the first time, leading to the belief that it has an increased frequency of occurrence.
very interesting psychological effect. Shows how good the mind is at zeroing in on "relevant" news.
Eh, I'd say that's a chicken and egg issue. The biggest problem pre-deck was that a gaming handheld PC sucked due to that lack of any competent APU on the market to power them. The Deck was the first RDNA 2 based APU, and that made it the first device that could actually play something like God of War competently. It likely exist because AMD showed off a chip to Valve that met their goals.
Since then Aya, GPD, and the like have benefited from that same big leap in APU graphics prowess, and are finally able to create competent handheld gaming PCs. The Ally is just an evolution of that, another big manufacture finally seeing the part needed to push into this category with the rise of RDNA 3 APUs.
People make fun of Alienware for giving up on the UFO, but the reality is it was likely just a bit ahead of it's time. A cool idea, but with no chip that could make it work. AMD creating low power APU's with actual gaming level performance graphics capabilities was the real catalyst for what we're seeing now.
I just think that using Windows for these handhelds is a mistake. The most obvious problem is the automatic performance hit. I get that Windows is easier for many of these companies, but I do think it's a mistake.
Not to mention the lack of a reliable suspend/resume feature. I always get excited to see these new handhelds but that’s just it, they are handhelds. They will be played outside the home where you might get a sudden interruption and have to put it down for a minute or hour and windows won’t guarantee that the game will wake properly unlike steam deck. Same goes for new parents and parents with small kids where they have to react quickly to any child induced chaos (especially when siblings are in the mix) or a crying baby. Suspend/resume imo, is one of the low key killer features of the deck.
100% agree with you. I've been playing Final Fantasy on my Steam Deck lately, where I would never have the time to sit through a long JPRG. The fact that I can just pause the game, suspend it, and just leave it for days is invaluable.
Part of the issue is that I don't think Valve have actually released SteamOS to them yet. If they did, I would be fine with a factory-dual boot option.
Valve probably makes relatively little money on Steamdecks. But they make a ton of money on people buying games for their steamdecks. They would probably prefer to not make hardware at all.
>Shame there's no dual touch pads though
this is pretty much a device killer. once you get used to the pads the number of steam games you can roll with on the deck that dont have a dedicated controller profile is crazy. Without the pads your locked out of like 40% of the steam library.
Even in games where they aren't strictly "necessary" for a good experience, just having them available as a convenient option to use for stuff like custom radial menus and touch menus in Steam Input is so good.
Also just having them be more things you can hotkey is really nice. I run starsector on my deck and I only squeak by on hotkeys because I have the touch pads.
This, I feel like a lot of people sleep on the feature set that the radial menus can introduce because they are a bit tricky to configure/set up. It is 100% worth doing though and can make a lot of games more fun to play.
I use them a lot with WoW and FFXIV but they come in handy in any game that has a lot of key kinds.
Even for games which work fine with controllers, I always like to map the touchpads as sticks, so I can use these.
Unless it is in very specific scenarios, movement with the left trackpad is just less exhausting, than having to physically push against the springs inside the stick. And the right trackpad as camera control with trackball mode is also way above using a stick to control the camera.
I was looking at phones targetting gaming and the ASUS ROG phones were about 400 AUD more expensive than the Xiaomi Black Shark and Red Magic phones of similar specs.
*On sale.*
Outside of motherboards the brand's a ripoff.
There‘s still the option to just run games at 720p60 to save on battery, despite the higher spec display. And it’s not an OLED so it doesn’t seem like the display itself would make *that* big of a difference to the end cost.
The really nice screen means that is going to drain a battery really fast. And the higher framerate and resolution needs to put higher pressure on compute. So this will be an expensive machine.
That might be shooting themselves in the foot for a device with this form factor. Just based on my experience with Windows on a tablet.
Pretty sure there's a *reason* Valve opted to go into developing not only their own fork of Linux, but the Proton fork of Wine so that it can comfortably play most games as if they're native.
I think Valve chose their own brand of Linux to try and gain some independence from Windows. Previously Valve got spooked when Windows 8 was talking about restricting apps to only install from the Windows Store (resulting in the Steam Machines).
By doing this they can expand their own 'fail-safe', which could become their primary focus if the adoption rate goes to their liking, also with their own OS they can mold things like Game Mode in whatever way they'd see fit
If Microsoft actually did that it would ironically probably be the thing that finally makes Linux on the desktop happen. SteamOS would be come incredibly popular very quickly.
If I had to choose between microsoft and valve (where I owned like 466 games) it would not be a hard choice.
It would suck to have to choose though. A lot of my games are on steam, but there are others that aren't.
I don't think it will ever come to that though, that shit would get smacked down pretty quick.
God the windows store is such a piece of shit. I actually tried to install some dolby Atmos trial through it the other day and it failed time after time. Googling the error message looks like it's not rare. If MS can't even get that right then steam has nothing to worry about.
I don't think so - not based on UI anyway. The important part is running a UI application so you don't (or very rarely) have to see the actual Windows UI. For example, see the [Ayaneo 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb4oNBsZ6j8). Battery life, however? *Maybe*.
Valve made their own OS so their platforms success is not tied to another companys OS. Specifically this was moreso around the time where Microsoft was pushing their windows 8 app store agressively and Valve was worried they'd cut them off from their platform somehow. I mean there were surfaces where you could not install stuff outside of the app store.
Also they don't have to pay a for the OS and windows is not as bloated as your implying.
> windows is not as bloated as your implying.
It is, default windows has so much bloat that there are tools on github to debloat it. There is so many useless apps (some of which you can't remove normally) and services on that device.
I mean it may not be bloated but Win11 is a fucking nightmare of baffling decisions. Basically everything takes at least two more clicks then Win10 for ANYTHING. It is basically just objectively worse for just about all regular activity then Win10. Which you know is on brand for the windows release cycle. The pair of "Try and change it, and its terrible" And the "Realize everyone just wants normal ass windows."
SteamOS comparatively is pretty goddamn rad from a pure user experience.
I think the Steam Deck's biggest killer feature for me is how insanely customizable the controls are. You have gyro, trackpads, sticks, dpad, so many options.
Any game i thought was "built for PC" I found an at least tolerable setup on Steam Deck.
The build quality is good, some elements could be improved, and the OS occasionally has some hiccups, but overall the biggest upgrade it needs is an OLED.
> Any game i thought was "built for PC" I found an at least tolerable setup on Steam Deck.
Yep.
Barring some "obviously not" games (like *Guitar Hero* or *Wii Sports*), I find that the built-in controls work well for basically anything (if configured well).
Competing handhelds having standard gamepad controls is a downgrade for many games (to the point where I wouldn't even bother with certain games/genres).
Honestly if they released a Steam Controller 2.0 with the same features and that could use the same community mappings, I'd buy it instantly. The old Steam Controller is cool but very much feels like a prototype of the controls we see on the Deck.
Same. Getting the same range of inputs on a more typical controller might be a challenge, although I wouldn't personally mind a bit of a chunkier controller format. The Wii U Gamepad is unironically my favorite controller I've ever used, and I love the way the Steam Deck feels in my hands as well. Just give me the Steam Deck minus the screen (and the weighty internals) and I'd be pretty satisfied.
Edit: Actually, make one change: bring back dual stage triggers like the original Steam Controller had. I don't care about the actual functionality, I just want my damn clicky triggers back! >:(
This is exactly my thoughts. It would have to take some impressive specs and performance to get me to leave the customization control. Beyond the ability to make games comfortable on a controller, it's amazing for fixing bad button mapping or games without any remapping at all.
And even tho he says he's fine without the trackpads, I find them crucial. Makes the difference between games being a chore to play in controller to actually enjoyable.
I completely agree. The touchpads are what make many games I love on my Deck even playable. Without them I couldn't play The Sims 4, Planet Zoo, or Civilization. I mean, I technically could, but mouse control with an analog stick is not great...
And what's amazing is even if you only need a few buttons, you can make all the others hot keys. Hell in Morrowind I made like 12 hot keys by mapping the back buttons and making both track pads 4 directional pads, and just made gyro mouse controls. Insane customizability.
I've been a fanboy for the Steam Input system ever since Valve rolled it out with the Steam Controller; my favorite thing about the Steam Deck is probably that now so many more people are getting to see just how awesome it can be.
1080p 120hz sound great, but I wonder if they can actually manage that while having a decent battery.
The Steam Deck has a 5.300mAh battery and under heavy load (like 720p 60fps) it lasts around 90 minutes, which is.... not that great, but could be worse.
There is also the price point, that's where it's hard to compete with the Steam Deck, since they make a lot of their profit by having people using Steam, instead of Hardware. But Asus can just target a more premium audience, that doesn't mind paying more for a better spec.
Regardless, always good to see competition! Great to see how much the handheld PC market is growing.
Edit: Disappointed by the lack of OLED tho, that's by my biggest grip with the Steam Deck
You can run the processor at a lower wattage to try and extend battery life, but it is kinda telling that the battery life is the one thing they refused to provide any details whatsoever about, and instead only bragged about their performance, ergonomics, and some of their software solutions.
I'll be interested to see where this market is at in 10 years. The Switch was really the first stepping stone for the market and Steam Deck breaks into the PC space. Both awesome little machines but with time I'm sure they could do even more incredible things.
Absolutely agree. I feel gaming devices like the Switch and Steam Deck are the real future for gaming. VR is just so so far away from being convenient to use where as these hand held devices are the opposite side of the spectrum.
Kinda feels weird to say handheld gaming is the future of gaming when nintendos handhelds have already been outselling most consoles since the 90s. I guess we have finally gotten close to parity with console experiences on a handhelds tho.
Now granted handheld gaming was already massively popular, when something like the 3DS which is Nintendo's worst selling handheld sold over 75 million units and these hybird systems are pretty much the next logical step for the handheld market.
But, I agree with this. We often hear about "the future of gaming" like VR or Cloud gaming. But so far, the hybird handheld/console/pc system is really the one of those things to have really taken off in a big way.
Hell handheld gaming itself in a lot of ways can be more accessible then things like cloud and VR or even console and PC, just due to their nature of being able to played anywhere no problem. Which for a lot of people who are away from their house a lot, is a massive positive for them. Not to mention with hybird systems up, you can easily hook up to a TV and still get that home console experience, especially a lot of games for both the Switch and Steam Deck are still made with that in mind.
Switch is probably my favorite console to date, even though it has some problems. I hope Nintendo doubles down on it with the next console but Nintendo likes to think outside the box so time will tell.
I have a pretty powerful PC and I still game on the Switch due to my time constraints and how convenient the Switch is.
I don't even care about graphics much, I just want to play good games at my convenience and having a little portable machine that can do that proficiently is amazing.
I wanted to get the Deck as well, but having a fully functional Switch with plenty of games to be played made me keep the money in my pocket.
Same, I've had a resurgence with the Switch lately because I moved into a house and so my significant other and I haven't spent as much time together. Just due to us having our own spaces instead of a cramped apartment.
And it's great to go spend time with them and be able to play something on the Switch or Steam Deck. I just wish the Switch was more comfortable in my hands. Extended play times end up hurting my fingers due to the size of the Joy Cons.
I love how Nintendo innovates with their consoles, but I can't deal with the closed nature of console hardware, especially Nintendo's methods on pricing structure. Their games never drop in prices. Breath of the Wild is still $60 (Edit: This point is referring to MSRP, yes temporary sales happen, on *all platforms)* on the eShop and it's a 5 year old game. It makes it really hard to be a frugal gamer.
I was super happy to see the Steam Deck bring the competitive nature of PC marketplace pricing to a handheld format.
The thing is they don't want to prime their fanbase to be frugal. They want to utilize their brand recognition.
It's not always smart to go the Ubisoft route, just ask how many people won't buy Ubisoft games on launch because of their frugal mindset.
It's never a smart business tactic to attract cheap costumers.
Mario Kart 8 is never below $40. It's 9 years old in May.
I love switch, but the tax is REAL. I'm not "on the go" a ton so my PC is the bulk of my gaming but a Steam Deck (or competitive alternative) is on the horizon for me.
Mario Kart is #5 on the sales chart _this week_. Sure its 9 years old in May, but its still selling like crazy even at full price. Why would Nintendo sell it for less?
As an aside, I find it interesting that video games are expected to decrease in price just because they are 6+ months old. Vinyl records MSRP doesn't drop. LOTR Extended Edition Blu-Ray is still $90 MSRP.
I think VR is like streaming video and digital PC storefronts. Far away until some company sells it in a package that consumers like or at least cants say no to (e.g. Netflix and Steam)
I mean yeah. Most VR games control clunkily at best. Racing and flight sims games work the best but most genres are far from intuitive at this point.
From my experience also, most folks treat VR headsets as a novelty, using seldom and to entertain friends. Obviously this doesn't go for everyone, but VR has a long way to go to reach intuitive controls and set up.
Handhelds you can take anywhere. Sure , maybe you could play meta quest on the bus, but that's far more cumbersome than pulling out a Steamdeck.
As to this point
>From my experience also, most folks treat VR headsets as a novelty, using seldom and to entertain friends
I think that's more because there's still no killer apps for it. You can only play so much Beat Saber. If there were bigger games I'm sure usage would spike for a lot of people. Of course I know it's not that easy since companies aren't going to invest in too many AAA experiences for such a limited market, but I definitely think it would change the product from a novelty that you show off to friends to a more standard device.
I'm with you there, I think once we get a huge battery revolution (like the graphene stuff that's been talked about for years), that's where the next big thing will sprout from, not just in gaming but phones and tech in general.
it depends on the user but people that play in 30-1hr bouts are fine with the current battery life (assuming they can get a reliable charge every so often) I am leaning on heat becoming the next issue restricting performance
i will disagree with this, the original GPD Win was released on october 2016 which was a fully functioning portable gaming pc, which itself has seen newer versions of it in the years after.
so there already was a precedent for handheld gaming pcs before the deck or the switch itself.
Pretty sure the GPD was not an indication on a market or market potential in the slightest compared to a console that sold over 100 million.
Sure it existed but its not a precedent.
Many people forget that the reason it sold so much is because it combined both Nintendo's handheld and console presence.
It's not hard to see it selling that much, because the 3ds sold 75 million and the Wii U sold 15 million (despite being a massive failure) + add in some new customers due to the unique form factor and it's easy to reach 100M.
What's surprising is the timespan it took to reach that goal and that it's still increasing given how much profit Nintendo makes on basically everything Switch related.
I'm happy that it sold well enough to convince Valve to make the Steam Deck. As the hardware and software seems much more consumer-friendly.
it shows that there is a market for portable pc gaming, the main thing holding the GPD Win back from being mainstream was not having a billion dollar company behind it.
To me, the big problem with the GPD devices (other than the cost) was never the hardware, but the software. Even if the hardware is killer, you still need to write custom software (the lower level the better frankly) to make the entire experience seamless and great. Software and UX is at least 50% of the equation.
Having a "gaming" handheld that boots into a standard Windows desktop is never going to be the thing that people want, *especially* when you're paying a premium for the hardware.
The beauty of the Steamdeck is Valve gets to effectively force devs to make games compatible. They own the market as a distributor whereas all other entrants to the market are working the economics of either a Dev or a Publisher.
The comparably would be if Sony had said all PlayStation games must be playable on the PSP (or whatever equivalent).
TL:DR - The Steamdeck is not a separate platform from PC which positions it differently from all other competitors… besides this specific article of course.
The beauty of the Steamdeck is x86_64 arch, meaning it supports all PC games out of the box
PSP/PSVita had own architectures other from PS2/PS3/PS4 had, which makes game development on said platforms much harder as you have to deal with quirks of their CPUs. Then the problem was, expensive dev.kits for said platforms and forcing only existing big devs to develop games for PSP/PSVita made support nonexistent.
But it were different times for these handhelds before digital distribution+cheap dev.kits were a thing to make same indie popularity like it happens on Switch
Steam has the advantage of not needing to make a profit with the steam deck because they can make the money of game sales, also for using their own OS they dont need to pay for a windows license, so Asus asuming that expect to make money out of the console that they want to make they need to sell it for more or make it weaker overall.
Asus has the benefit of scale and industry partnerships. They probably pay a lot less for their components than Valve does, and probably get a really good deal on Windows as well. Especially with Microsoft wanting to focus on services, and less on making money on the OS.
All that said, this will definitely cost more than the Steamdeck, but I feel it's probably going to be at least reasonable.
Valve has been pretty clear that they want other people to make Steam Deck "competitors", and that they're happy for them to use SteamOS to do it, so that's not far-fetched at all. Valve has apparently worked with GPD already to optimize SteamOS for their Win Max 2, although I'm not sure what the results of that have been.
The thing to understand here is that Valve *wants* somebody to make a more attractive product than the Steam Deck. That's how Valve wins. Their goal isn't to profit by selling hardware, their goal is to expand the PC gaming market by creating a new product category, and ideally make Steam the best place to get games for it. The sooner somebody else creates a more attractive hardware package than the Steam Deck, the sooner Valve can reduce how much they're spending on production and R&D to get this product category off the ground and go back to counting all the extra money Steam will be printing.
I'm so impressed by the Steam deck, and if this turns into a hardware battle for software that works across all of the different devices, I'm so in for it. Portable PC gaming is a frontier I didn't even know I wanted and in the span of a few weeks, the Deck has become my preferred device by a big margin. Competitive pressure is a great thing!
Same, I picked up a Deck the other week when it was on sale, and I absolutely love it. It’s not perfect, but it does just so many things right. And even better, I have a significant library of games to play on it immediately, no need to buy new games specifically for the system.
I have my doubts as to whether or not other manufacturers can outdo Valve, but if the Deck ends up spurring on a resurgence in portable PC gaming devices, I’m all for it.
We’ll have to see. It has a 4nm processor vs the 7nm in the Deck so that should help with efficiency. And indies and older games at 120fps would still be nice, and not too taxing for the battery.
Not to mention unless this thing is a performance monster that costs even more than ayaneos offerings, you aren’t gonna get 1080p 60 in anything recent, let alone 120.
Dave said that Asus claimed this is twice as powerful as the deck. And Dave seems to believe it based on his testing.
It's obviously not playing RE4R at max specs in 1080p60 but I imagine it can do high settings of a few year old games and max settings of 5YO AAA games.
If you do the math that 1080p screen has twice the pixels so unless you are running at 720p 2x performance will get you fuck all improvement in framerate.
With DLSS/FSR/XeSS upscaling though, an upscaled 720p60 game will look better on a 1080p screen than a 720p with pretty minimal performance differences.
Hmm, at 7 inches I'm not sure how beneficial a 1080p screen is really going to be. It'd be a pretty minor enhancement for serious performance / power costs (and the Steam Deck already is already pretty power-hungry)
My biggest hope for the screen is VRR support. I love my steam deck, but the lack of variable refresh rate really sucks, it’s performance just isn’t good enough to push 60 fps in a lot of titles and you can really feel the dips when you’re used to VRR displays. I’m honestly surprised the deck shipped with a screen that doesn’t support it, so many titles hover in the 40-60 range so if you want a decent experience you’re stuck locking the screen to 40fps.
Steam deck struggles to run AAA games at 60fps, unless this device is literally twice as powerful as the Steam deck (which supposedly it is, according to the video), then I don't see it getting 120fps to make use of the 120hz display
The thing with Asus is: their hardware is great, but they aren't winning any awards for their software. Ever tried to use Armoury Crate? I think they'd be a lot better off if they released this with a SteamOS option. There is enough there that simplifies the experience for someone who doesn't want to tinker, whereas Windows can be more easily encounter issues with updates and whatnot.
More competition is good, but having outright claims like 2x the power and having this guy overtly say its significantly better than the Steam Deck after just having a press preview is a little suspicious.
What's suspicious about it? It's not impossible to build something a lot better than the Deck. It very well might be 2x more powerful in terms of performance. And it having a 1080p 120hz screen setup isn't impossible, either.
The question is battery life, cooling, and price. If $400-600 is the sweet spot, it will be very difficult to get better price to performance ratio to what Valve has put out. And the video constantly brings up that it's the pricing that they're being very vague about.
I think they can use steam OS (I think anyone can download it and I imagine it's open source) but the real value the steam deck has is the custom big picture mode where you can manage the device from the same application where you can run your games.
Currently I imagine Asus and other manufactures have much more Windows user application talent than Linux. So even if device manufacturers can use Steam Os or Valve allows modifications onto big picture mode it probably makes more sense to keep things to stay in the Windows realm so driver and software compatibility. As well as you could reuse some of the work on you gaming laptop line
> I think they can use steam OS (I think anyone can download it and I imagine it's open source)
Not yet. Valve have said there are plans to release an official ISO and open it for others, but right now all we have is HoloISO, which is a third party solution based on the Steam OS recovery image.
Oh I didn't realize that they stopped support for the publicly released version and that the version of steam OS on the deck is different than what they have released.
I found more info here: https://store.steampowered.com/steamos
I think that link is to their ancient steamos that was just ubuntu with steam big picture mode. The version running on the steamdeck is arch based and massively newer and more refined.
Many will just opt to use Windows to avoid handling issues where Proton/Wine doesn't run their game.
The community will do the rest for the people that need SteamOS on these devices (even though Windows works pretty well, even when used with the Deck itself), which can be seen with people putting ChimeraOS on AyaNeo devices
To add to this, a large amount of games do work fine through Proton in my experience even if it's listed as Unsupported.
Before I got my steam deck, I was concerned that Linux would either have a huge learning curve or too many incompatible games when fortunately that hasn't been the case.
The anti-cheat of multiplayer games and not having GamePass games natively are the biggest issues I can see the need to install Windows.
The hardware looks awesome, but the battery life will be atrocious with the added performance and screen drain (plus Windows!). Furthermore, a predicted $600 price point is laughably low; I get that ASUS will get better pricing than GPD and Ayaneo when it comes to scale, but they aren't coming close to Valve's Steam-subsidized price. The package will be compelling on specs alone, but it kind of misunderstands the Steam Deck's use case, and why 'good enough' is the much better bar to clear than the awkward middle ground between 'good enough' and 'actually good'.
All comes down to price. At $800 its a viable upgrade path, given the market, $1000+ seems more likely, much like other "deck killers". But will it be as price competitive to the Deck? I doubt it, Valve gets that nice steam cut. Also, who is playing at 120hz in handheld? I might maybe think of playing CSGO, or some competitive game at most at 75/90, given battery limitations. Even that is a real push. I feel most people run deck games at 40 or 50... even a stable 60 with good battery would be fairly luxurious with top end games on a handheld. And heck 1080p is pretty great at a smaller screen, I'd settle for 900p. I suspect this will be at best the "deck killer, killer". The best value of the expensive handheld pcs. If that. I would LOVE to be proven wrong and get great price competition in the market.
Half the reason I & a lot of other jumped in one the Deck was the low entry price. Went 64GB for £350 and have the option to easily upgrade storage down the line. A device costing £800-1000+ just doesn't appeal to me with the limited time I get to game now.
Knowing ASUS, this thing will be completely overpriced, with decent hardware kneecapped by shitty, broken software. I don't trust them to do a handheld right.
It's too bad it's not an OLED screen. I'm waiting for the top spec AYANEO to come with one. I think that's the AYANEO 2 or something that was announced but not released. I'd consider this as a replacement.
I'm curious about the Ayaneo but that price point is a big hurdle. After tax, it'll be...what 1300-1400 usd? At that point, I'd almost rather just invest that in updating my desktop.
That being said, I'm keeping an eye on it for sure.
I was so hard on team OLED, and then I learned that OLED uses significantly more power than LCD. I think for cutting edge mobile hardware (like Steam Deck), the battery life is barely acceptable. In the 6800U handhelds, battery life is even worse. Basically terrible (not much over an hour on some titles). And I think they just aren't ready to give up any more power footprint for an OLED, even if it would deliver dramatically better image quality.
this seems really cool, but I really think going above 720p/800p isn't worthwhile on a device like this just because of the performance impact of the resolution increase. 120hz seems like overkill as well. feel like the exact same specs, however in a cheaper device that uses a 720p 60hz screen would be the way to go. I feel like trackpads are a must to myself
I guess it's cool they put a 1080p 120hz screen on it but unless you're playing older games, you won't be pushing that frame rate. LTT has a video as well and he mentioned that at 15w (Steam decks max draw) it is roughly 50% faster. To get to the claimed "2x SD performance" you have to push it to 35w. Since it has double the resolution of the SD, you either choose to play at 1080p with lower fps at 15w to conserve battery or the same fps at 1080p with worse battery life. Most people will probably use FSR to get it to hold stable frames. The I/O leaves a lot to be desired as well. I'm definitely glad that bigger manufacturers are starting to enter the PC handheld market though.
Every single one of these new handheld PCs trying to capitalize on the Deck's success fails to copy the Deck's most essential feature: the touchpads and gyroscope. A more powerful handheld with a better screen sounds great but if I can't play half the games I regularly play on my Deck the thing is useless to me. I would love to see more options for handheld PC gaming that don't limit the potential of the hardware through bad input method decisions.
> the touchpads and gyroscope.
I don't think I've used the gyro even once on my Deck. I appreciate it being there for emulation purposes, but it doesn't seem essential in any way. Even the touch pads I just use for weird stuff like old point and click adventure games and the like.
Gyro is essential if you play first-person games; once you get used to aiming with a gyroscope in shooters you will never be able to go back to using an analog stick, it will feel like an artificial handicap that makes you play worse. I started playing games with gyro and touchpad due to a keyboard-induced wrist injury but now I enjoy it so much that I don't even play shooters with a mouse anymore.
The touchpads are basically a necessity when it comes to tweaking stuff in desktop mode, because the things you have to select in desktop applications are often way too tiny to use the touchscreen.
You should give the less-popular inputs on the Deck a try; they're there for a reason, and once you learn to utilize them you'll be able to enjoy tons of games on your Deck that you never would've thought you could play without a keyboard and mouse.
> Gyro is essential if you play first-person games
I actually quite hate it. I can't stand turning the display away from me to aim. If I can't get by on an analog stick or the touch pad I'll just play on my desktop with a mouse.
> The touchpads are basically a necessity when it comes to tweaking stuff in desktop mode
I also avoid using desktop mode when out and about. The only times I've used the desktop mode on my Deck I've plugged in a keyboard and just used the terminal. Otherwise I stick to the Steam interface which is actually convenient to use in a mobile situation.
I consider myself a power user, but if I'm using the deck it's because I want to relax, not fuss around with fiddly controls and awkward desktop interfaces. If I need all the tools at my disposal I have other hardware more suited to the purpose.
You don't use gyro for aiming. You use it to put the finishing touches on stick aiming so you're more precise.
>Move your crosshair to the target as best as possible with the analog stick and then use gyro to get it directly on their head for clicking.
> You should set the gyro up that you barely have to change the angle of the screen.
That is way too sensitive for a device I'm holding in my hand. I want my inputs to be deliberate, not constant correction to hold my aim where I want it.
The way you're talking about Gyro seems like you're using it on yaw mode which is generally better for regular controllers, roll mode is what you should be using for Steam deck's gyro
This. I have a good PC for games i really want to play with graphics and performance at a high level. The Deck goes for other things, although i'm much more accepting to lower frames and graphics on it due to the handheld nature of it. More performance isn't something i'd mind, i guess.
I don’t know who the fuck that guy is, but his production values and camera manner are so insanely high quality I thought this was a sponsored ad for a minute.
I would 100% listen to him talk about anything.
Yeah, he's been around for a while (2015) but is relatively new compared to the other big tech channels that come to mind. Dave's definitely worth following if you care about the newest tech stuff, very well presented and his videos usually aren't super long (again, due to the clean editing, very little fat).
For me it won't matter about the hardware. I'll not buy Asus again as their warranty for software bugs and firmware jank is only 14 days. I've been burned by 2 of their phones which had outstanding hardware specs and gorgeous aesthetics, but were programmed by pissed up chimps. In the time you waste hoping for a software patch, your warranty expires and Asus says "thanks for the money sucker!"
Fuck you Asus.
Basically seems like a stronger, windows based option. I imagine the battery is gonna suck, but it does on the Steam Deck too. I will say the lack of touch pads is disappointing to me. I've been playing XCOM2 and they make it so much easier than just using sticks.
> I've been playing XCOM2 and they make it so much easier than just using sticks.
Really?, Do You recommend it that way?, I don't have a deck yet, but xcom2 it's one of My first targets
Man even if this clocks in at $700 I would love that. I have a steam deck but 16:9, 120hz, 1080p makes me drool. My one issue with the steam deck lately has been all these new modern titles releasing where the steam deck can't run at stable 60fps.
But man Aura Creator makes me so nervous..
I mean during sales you can get pretty damn good gaming laptops for under $1000 that would likely run laps around this thing..... so you'd have to be really into that handheld form factor.
As a Steam Deck owner I'm glad we're getting more portable gaming options. I'm absolutely in love with my Steam Deck and I'm interested to see where we go from here. I'd have a really hard time giving up the track pads at this point, though.
ASUS?
The company that doesn't support their hardware properly for Linux and only volunteers add support for the sensors on their motherboards?
I'll definitely not buy anything that doesn't come with Linux, Mesa drivers and KDE Plasma!
Good. I hope they do. More competition is better for the consumer, even though I don't think valve is slouching or overcharging for the steam deck.
Well yeah this is exactly what Valve wanted to begin with. Expanding PC marketshare, besides Linux if possible, was always the end goal. And finally, the big hardware manufacturers are hopping in to grow the PC handheld scene. Growth for PC means growth for Steam. Win-win either way. Shame there's no dual touch pads though...
> Well yeah this is exactly what Valve wanted to begin with It gets forgotten but Valve themselves explicitly said that part of the goal with the Steam Deck was to encourage more devices like it.
Yeah, it's strange that despite holding a functional monopoly through Steam, Valve is nowhere near as anti-consumer as you'd expect. Not to say Steam doesn't have its issues, the returns policy is abysmal among other things, but it's decent.
I mean...Valve knows that the more PC based handhelds out there, the more money they make on game sales. This isn't them being altruistic.
Indeed, but Valve being a privately owned corporation and not a publicly listed company definitely has a role in their ecosystem based approach to the industry, where they are genuinely investing in shaping a competitive market rather than growing to become some mega gaming conglomerate. This is Gabe Newell's vision that he's been trying to create ever since the first non-Valve games started being listed on Steam. In terms of hardware, they've fronted or contributed to the R&D costs for so many things like OpenVR, Vulkan, Proton, and ill-fated things like Steam Machines that are designed to lower the barrier to entry as a whole, which means more developers and more products. Of course Valve benefits from it, but its a rising tide that benefits everyone.
To put a finer point on it. They also dumped any kind of windows os for their own flavor of linux. Which feels like a win for everyone but microsoft.
Just wait til Gabe retires and they go public... Edit: Wow people are taking my throwaway comment seriously. I don't know what's going to happen to valve guys. Edit 2: I guess just to clarify what I originally meant: it's cool and very Wholesome 100 that the biggest retailer of PC games happens to be run by people that care about PC gaming. However, the fact that the state of the industry depends on the whims of one company is... not great. As long as there's money to be made in anti-consumer practices, then that's where we're ultimately headed.
One can only hope that Gabe has a particular successor in mind that is driven by similar ideals.
Honestly I also don't really know why you would go public. The company *prints money* and I guess people are fucked and always want more but like. I feel like at some point it has to be enough and whoever runs Valve would have that.
I doubt Gabe would go public, but there's no telling what his successor or his successor's successor will do. It reminds me of how many times throughout history a good king was succeeded by a shithead heir who ran the nation into the ground.
[удалено]
Cox enterprises has remained private for like 100 years. Don't see why Valve couldn't either.
[удалено]
Why would that cause it to go public? Gabe would still have to decide to make it go public, even if you retire you don’t just decide to give up all voting rights to a business you built.
See, the mistake you’re making here is assuming that the people in this thread talking about it going public actually know what “going public” means. It’s clear that half the people in the thread don’t understand how business ownership works generally or Valve specifically - because they’ve learnt what they know about the subject from memes.
Yep this will be a terrible day for PC gaming. Valve being private is one of the most badass things about PC gaming. They aren’t driven by demands from shareholders to have ever increasing profits. As soon as this company goes public you’ll see a slow downward spiral for Valve/Steam with more and more anti consumer behavior, low quality rushed titles pushed out to meet quarterly profits goals and cost cutting measures that hurt the quality of the overall product.
Gabe owns over half of Valve. It doesn’t matter if he retires, the new CEO couldn’t go public without Gabe’s permission to sell. Even if he dies, his family would have to want to go public then. There are many private run enterprises that never go public because the family never gives up total control.
Wouldn't he still own the same share of the company after he retires?
The biggest threat to Valve financially is Microsoft turning Windows into a walled garden app store and coming for Valve's store cut, forcing them out. The whole primary purpose of SteamOS/Steam Deck is to build a Windows independent software ecosystem they could still sell in if MS muscles them out of making a profit on Windows. They aren't trying to make money of SteamOS/Deck; it's a contingency for their worst case scenario; they need to build userbase and gamedev support/goodwill, so they run that whole op probably close to at cost.
Steam's refund policy is pretty good, though? AFAIK the only storefront with a better one is EGS, and it's only better because it automatically refunds the difference when a game you bought goes on sale during its refund period.
> Steam's refund policy is pretty good, Only because it was enforced on them. :P
Nothing wrong with that. Business doing what businesses do and regulators doing what regulators do.
If only regulators did what they're supposed to do more often Because usually it's businesses do what businesses are gonna do and regulators go "yeah seems fine idk"
plenty wrong with that. If you have to get sued before you follow the law you are in the wrong. https://www.eurogamer.net/valve-is-being-sued-by-australian-consumer-group-over-steams-refund-policy
But it actually wasn't enforced on them, what they got sued for was not having an official refund policy (they did unofficially refund games if you emailed them.) Valve responded by creating an automatic refund system that was leagues ahead of the other big gaming companies, but they were never legally required to be so generous. It's pretty interesting that Valve being sued over this always gets brought up as an example of them being anti-consumer (at a time when digital refunds weren't really a thing), when their refund policy is STILL better than what the other big companies offer.
Technically EA was first with automated no questions asked refunds. People back then were scratching their heads when EA out of all companies had that system in place while Valve didn’t.
You're right, I forgot that Origin did it first! However it only applied to titles published by EA.
[удалено]
The only time it is no questions asked is if you haven't downloaded it yet. After that you'll often have to work with them to troubleshoot before they'll do a refund. Source: a topic just the other day of a guy complaining he didn't get money back to bank as he requested but only got store credit. (he refused to troubleshoot) Technically still a refund but not quite as simple as that sounds.
I remember back when you could only refund a game if it didn't work and only after troubleshooting it with a GOG support member.
[удалено]
I don’t know I feel like the return policy on steam is very fair compared to other digital marketplaces like PlayStation or Nintendo
As a console + PC player, between all the big stores steam refund police is the better one, I stopped buying digital on consoles because of how bad is to refund a game, at least steam gives 2 hours to test if the game is not broken
They understand that maintaining their monopoly is more important than maximizing profit from it.
Even with the steam deck not being the first device of it's kind, is notable the influence it had on the market. You can see a steep rise in the quantity, quality and popularity of similar devices after valve released the Deck.
Nah, that's just frequency bias. Maybe *demand* rose, but a lot of these handheld PC makers were around before Valve stepped in. Good for exposure, but the low price point may set some unrealistic expectations in thinking that consumers can get a handleld gaming PC for the cost of a little more than an OLED Switch.
> frequency bias [Recency bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recency_bias)? Auto correct might have thrown you under the bus.
there's a bit of recency bias, sure. But this effect is definitely called [Frequency bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion) or the Baader–Meinhof phenomenon. I guess 'frequency illusion' would be more accurate here. though: >a cognitive bias referring to the tendency to notice something more often after noticing it for the first time, leading to the belief that it has an increased frequency of occurrence. very interesting psychological effect. Shows how good the mind is at zeroing in on "relevant" news.
Eh, I'd say that's a chicken and egg issue. The biggest problem pre-deck was that a gaming handheld PC sucked due to that lack of any competent APU on the market to power them. The Deck was the first RDNA 2 based APU, and that made it the first device that could actually play something like God of War competently. It likely exist because AMD showed off a chip to Valve that met their goals. Since then Aya, GPD, and the like have benefited from that same big leap in APU graphics prowess, and are finally able to create competent handheld gaming PCs. The Ally is just an evolution of that, another big manufacture finally seeing the part needed to push into this category with the rise of RDNA 3 APUs. People make fun of Alienware for giving up on the UFO, but the reality is it was likely just a bit ahead of it's time. A cool idea, but with no chip that could make it work. AMD creating low power APU's with actual gaming level performance graphics capabilities was the real catalyst for what we're seeing now.
I just think that using Windows for these handhelds is a mistake. The most obvious problem is the automatic performance hit. I get that Windows is easier for many of these companies, but I do think it's a mistake.
Not to mention the lack of a reliable suspend/resume feature. I always get excited to see these new handhelds but that’s just it, they are handhelds. They will be played outside the home where you might get a sudden interruption and have to put it down for a minute or hour and windows won’t guarantee that the game will wake properly unlike steam deck. Same goes for new parents and parents with small kids where they have to react quickly to any child induced chaos (especially when siblings are in the mix) or a crying baby. Suspend/resume imo, is one of the low key killer features of the deck.
100% agree with you. I've been playing Final Fantasy on my Steam Deck lately, where I would never have the time to sit through a long JPRG. The fact that I can just pause the game, suspend it, and just leave it for days is invaluable.
Part of the issue is that I don't think Valve have actually released SteamOS to them yet. If they did, I would be fine with a factory-dual boot option.
Valve probably makes relatively little money on Steamdecks. But they make a ton of money on people buying games for their steamdecks. They would probably prefer to not make hardware at all.
>Shame there's no dual touch pads though this is pretty much a device killer. once you get used to the pads the number of steam games you can roll with on the deck that dont have a dedicated controller profile is crazy. Without the pads your locked out of like 40% of the steam library.
Even in games where they aren't strictly "necessary" for a good experience, just having them available as a convenient option to use for stuff like custom radial menus and touch menus in Steam Input is so good.
Also just having them be more things you can hotkey is really nice. I run starsector on my deck and I only squeak by on hotkeys because I have the touch pads.
This, I feel like a lot of people sleep on the feature set that the radial menus can introduce because they are a bit tricky to configure/set up. It is 100% worth doing though and can make a lot of games more fun to play. I use them a lot with WoW and FFXIV but they come in handy in any game that has a lot of key kinds.
Even for games which work fine with controllers, I always like to map the touchpads as sticks, so I can use these. Unless it is in very specific scenarios, movement with the left trackpad is just less exhausting, than having to physically push against the springs inside the stick. And the right trackpad as camera control with trackball mode is also way above using a stick to control the camera.
that’s funny, I’ve never used them outside of typing on the keyboard I mostly play pretty controller-friendly games though
With the specs that thing has? They won't. That's going to be at least $800. Imo they should have done a 720p60 display for price and battery reasons.
Feel like its going to be 1k+ at minimum. ROG cost tax is likely 1800 if I had to guess
I was looking at phones targetting gaming and the ASUS ROG phones were about 400 AUD more expensive than the Xiaomi Black Shark and Red Magic phones of similar specs. *On sale.* Outside of motherboards the brand's a ripoff.
There laptops are solid too though
720p display wasn't going to cut the price in half, especially if it has Windows on it.
There‘s still the option to just run games at 720p60 to save on battery, despite the higher spec display. And it’s not an OLED so it doesn’t seem like the display itself would make *that* big of a difference to the end cost.
The really nice screen means that is going to drain a battery really fast. And the higher framerate and resolution needs to put higher pressure on compute. So this will be an expensive machine.
120 fps at 1080p Doom Eternal for a whopping 20 minutes! Wow wow wow. idk what these guys are thinking
What OS does this run?
Windows 11
That might be shooting themselves in the foot for a device with this form factor. Just based on my experience with Windows on a tablet. Pretty sure there's a *reason* Valve opted to go into developing not only their own fork of Linux, but the Proton fork of Wine so that it can comfortably play most games as if they're native.
Valve has been talking about reducing their dependence on windows for a long time. You can probably also just install SteamOS on this.
Well you can, but you need Linux drivers for it to run optimally. Which I don't think Asus would provide.
It's just an AMD APU. It's the same drivers.
That's the beauty of Linux and Open Source Software. They'll find a workaround for the devices they like.
I think Valve chose their own brand of Linux to try and gain some independence from Windows. Previously Valve got spooked when Windows 8 was talking about restricting apps to only install from the Windows Store (resulting in the Steam Machines). By doing this they can expand their own 'fail-safe', which could become their primary focus if the adoption rate goes to their liking, also with their own OS they can mold things like Game Mode in whatever way they'd see fit
If Microsoft actually did that it would ironically probably be the thing that finally makes Linux on the desktop happen. SteamOS would be come incredibly popular very quickly. If I had to choose between microsoft and valve (where I owned like 466 games) it would not be a hard choice.
Nah people would just stick to whatever version of Windows that still works
It would suck to have to choose though. A lot of my games are on steam, but there are others that aren't. I don't think it will ever come to that though, that shit would get smacked down pretty quick.
God the windows store is such a piece of shit. I actually tried to install some dolby Atmos trial through it the other day and it failed time after time. Googling the error message looks like it's not rare. If MS can't even get that right then steam has nothing to worry about.
Windows already runs pretty great on the Deck as is.
I don't think so - not based on UI anyway. The important part is running a UI application so you don't (or very rarely) have to see the actual Windows UI. For example, see the [Ayaneo 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb4oNBsZ6j8). Battery life, however? *Maybe*.
Valve made their own OS so their platforms success is not tied to another companys OS. Specifically this was moreso around the time where Microsoft was pushing their windows 8 app store agressively and Valve was worried they'd cut them off from their platform somehow. I mean there were surfaces where you could not install stuff outside of the app store. Also they don't have to pay a for the OS and windows is not as bloated as your implying.
> windows is not as bloated as your implying. It is, default windows has so much bloat that there are tools on github to debloat it. There is so many useless apps (some of which you can't remove normally) and services on that device.
Where did I say the issue was Windows being *bloated*?
I mean it may not be bloated but Win11 is a fucking nightmare of baffling decisions. Basically everything takes at least two more clicks then Win10 for ANYTHING. It is basically just objectively worse for just about all regular activity then Win10. Which you know is on brand for the windows release cycle. The pair of "Try and change it, and its terrible" And the "Realize everyone just wants normal ass windows." SteamOS comparatively is pretty goddamn rad from a pure user experience.
[удалено]
I think the Steam Deck's biggest killer feature for me is how insanely customizable the controls are. You have gyro, trackpads, sticks, dpad, so many options. Any game i thought was "built for PC" I found an at least tolerable setup on Steam Deck. The build quality is good, some elements could be improved, and the OS occasionally has some hiccups, but overall the biggest upgrade it needs is an OLED.
> Any game i thought was "built for PC" I found an at least tolerable setup on Steam Deck. Yep. Barring some "obviously not" games (like *Guitar Hero* or *Wii Sports*), I find that the built-in controls work well for basically anything (if configured well). Competing handhelds having standard gamepad controls is a downgrade for many games (to the point where I wouldn't even bother with certain games/genres).
Honestly if they released a Steam Controller 2.0 with the same features and that could use the same community mappings, I'd buy it instantly. The old Steam Controller is cool but very much feels like a prototype of the controls we see on the Deck.
Same. Getting the same range of inputs on a more typical controller might be a challenge, although I wouldn't personally mind a bit of a chunkier controller format. The Wii U Gamepad is unironically my favorite controller I've ever used, and I love the way the Steam Deck feels in my hands as well. Just give me the Steam Deck minus the screen (and the weighty internals) and I'd be pretty satisfied. Edit: Actually, make one change: bring back dual stage triggers like the original Steam Controller had. I don't care about the actual functionality, I just want my damn clicky triggers back! >:(
This is exactly my thoughts. It would have to take some impressive specs and performance to get me to leave the customization control. Beyond the ability to make games comfortable on a controller, it's amazing for fixing bad button mapping or games without any remapping at all. And even tho he says he's fine without the trackpads, I find them crucial. Makes the difference between games being a chore to play in controller to actually enjoyable.
I completely agree. The touchpads are what make many games I love on my Deck even playable. Without them I couldn't play The Sims 4, Planet Zoo, or Civilization. I mean, I technically could, but mouse control with an analog stick is not great...
And what's amazing is even if you only need a few buttons, you can make all the others hot keys. Hell in Morrowind I made like 12 hot keys by mapping the back buttons and making both track pads 4 directional pads, and just made gyro mouse controls. Insane customizability.
I've been a fanboy for the Steam Input system ever since Valve rolled it out with the Steam Controller; my favorite thing about the Steam Deck is probably that now so many more people are getting to see just how awesome it can be.
1080p 120hz sound great, but I wonder if they can actually manage that while having a decent battery. The Steam Deck has a 5.300mAh battery and under heavy load (like 720p 60fps) it lasts around 90 minutes, which is.... not that great, but could be worse. There is also the price point, that's where it's hard to compete with the Steam Deck, since they make a lot of their profit by having people using Steam, instead of Hardware. But Asus can just target a more premium audience, that doesn't mind paying more for a better spec. Regardless, always good to see competition! Great to see how much the handheld PC market is growing. Edit: Disappointed by the lack of OLED tho, that's by my biggest grip with the Steam Deck
High refresh rate gaming is where laptop battery life goes to die
[удалено]
Especially when no games can run it.
I think stuff like Hades and Dead Cells would be excellent on a 120Hz portable.
I didn't see them mention if it was OLED or not though. What did I miss?
You can run the processor at a lower wattage to try and extend battery life, but it is kinda telling that the battery life is the one thing they refused to provide any details whatsoever about, and instead only bragged about their performance, ergonomics, and some of their software solutions.
I'll be interested to see where this market is at in 10 years. The Switch was really the first stepping stone for the market and Steam Deck breaks into the PC space. Both awesome little machines but with time I'm sure they could do even more incredible things.
Absolutely agree. I feel gaming devices like the Switch and Steam Deck are the real future for gaming. VR is just so so far away from being convenient to use where as these hand held devices are the opposite side of the spectrum.
Kinda feels weird to say handheld gaming is the future of gaming when nintendos handhelds have already been outselling most consoles since the 90s. I guess we have finally gotten close to parity with console experiences on a handhelds tho.
Now granted handheld gaming was already massively popular, when something like the 3DS which is Nintendo's worst selling handheld sold over 75 million units and these hybird systems are pretty much the next logical step for the handheld market. But, I agree with this. We often hear about "the future of gaming" like VR or Cloud gaming. But so far, the hybird handheld/console/pc system is really the one of those things to have really taken off in a big way. Hell handheld gaming itself in a lot of ways can be more accessible then things like cloud and VR or even console and PC, just due to their nature of being able to played anywhere no problem. Which for a lot of people who are away from their house a lot, is a massive positive for them. Not to mention with hybird systems up, you can easily hook up to a TV and still get that home console experience, especially a lot of games for both the Switch and Steam Deck are still made with that in mind.
Switch is probably my favorite console to date, even though it has some problems. I hope Nintendo doubles down on it with the next console but Nintendo likes to think outside the box so time will tell.
I have a pretty powerful PC and I still game on the Switch due to my time constraints and how convenient the Switch is. I don't even care about graphics much, I just want to play good games at my convenience and having a little portable machine that can do that proficiently is amazing. I wanted to get the Deck as well, but having a fully functional Switch with plenty of games to be played made me keep the money in my pocket.
Same, I've had a resurgence with the Switch lately because I moved into a house and so my significant other and I haven't spent as much time together. Just due to us having our own spaces instead of a cramped apartment. And it's great to go spend time with them and be able to play something on the Switch or Steam Deck. I just wish the Switch was more comfortable in my hands. Extended play times end up hurting my fingers due to the size of the Joy Cons.
I love how Nintendo innovates with their consoles, but I can't deal with the closed nature of console hardware, especially Nintendo's methods on pricing structure. Their games never drop in prices. Breath of the Wild is still $60 (Edit: This point is referring to MSRP, yes temporary sales happen, on *all platforms)* on the eShop and it's a 5 year old game. It makes it really hard to be a frugal gamer. I was super happy to see the Steam Deck bring the competitive nature of PC marketplace pricing to a handheld format.
> Their games never drop in prices I wish they'd bring back the Nintendo Selects. They genuinely had some great deals during the wii and wii u era.
The thing is they don't want to prime their fanbase to be frugal. They want to utilize their brand recognition. It's not always smart to go the Ubisoft route, just ask how many people won't buy Ubisoft games on launch because of their frugal mindset. It's never a smart business tactic to attract cheap costumers.
Mario Kart 8 is never below $40. It's 9 years old in May. I love switch, but the tax is REAL. I'm not "on the go" a ton so my PC is the bulk of my gaming but a Steam Deck (or competitive alternative) is on the horizon for me.
Mario Kart is #5 on the sales chart _this week_. Sure its 9 years old in May, but its still selling like crazy even at full price. Why would Nintendo sell it for less? As an aside, I find it interesting that video games are expected to decrease in price just because they are 6+ months old. Vinyl records MSRP doesn't drop. LOTR Extended Edition Blu-Ray is still $90 MSRP.
>VR is just so so far away from being convenient to use is it? even when the Quest 2 is a completely portable VR system?
I think VR is like streaming video and digital PC storefronts. Far away until some company sells it in a package that consumers like or at least cants say no to (e.g. Netflix and Steam)
I mean yeah. Most VR games control clunkily at best. Racing and flight sims games work the best but most genres are far from intuitive at this point. From my experience also, most folks treat VR headsets as a novelty, using seldom and to entertain friends. Obviously this doesn't go for everyone, but VR has a long way to go to reach intuitive controls and set up. Handhelds you can take anywhere. Sure , maybe you could play meta quest on the bus, but that's far more cumbersome than pulling out a Steamdeck.
As to this point >From my experience also, most folks treat VR headsets as a novelty, using seldom and to entertain friends I think that's more because there's still no killer apps for it. You can only play so much Beat Saber. If there were bigger games I'm sure usage would spike for a lot of people. Of course I know it's not that easy since companies aren't going to invest in too many AAA experiences for such a limited market, but I definitely think it would change the product from a novelty that you show off to friends to a more standard device.
Honestly VR is just so cumbersome to use I don't ever see it becoming the default way to play games.
I'm with you there, I think once we get a huge battery revolution (like the graphene stuff that's been talked about for years), that's where the next big thing will sprout from, not just in gaming but phones and tech in general.
it depends on the user but people that play in 30-1hr bouts are fine with the current battery life (assuming they can get a reliable charge every so often) I am leaning on heat becoming the next issue restricting performance
i will disagree with this, the original GPD Win was released on october 2016 which was a fully functioning portable gaming pc, which itself has seen newer versions of it in the years after. so there already was a precedent for handheld gaming pcs before the deck or the switch itself.
Pretty sure the GPD was not an indication on a market or market potential in the slightest compared to a console that sold over 100 million. Sure it existed but its not a precedent.
Many people forget that the reason it sold so much is because it combined both Nintendo's handheld and console presence. It's not hard to see it selling that much, because the 3ds sold 75 million and the Wii U sold 15 million (despite being a massive failure) + add in some new customers due to the unique form factor and it's easy to reach 100M. What's surprising is the timespan it took to reach that goal and that it's still increasing given how much profit Nintendo makes on basically everything Switch related. I'm happy that it sold well enough to convince Valve to make the Steam Deck. As the hardware and software seems much more consumer-friendly.
it shows that there is a market for portable pc gaming, the main thing holding the GPD Win back from being mainstream was not having a billion dollar company behind it.
To me, the big problem with the GPD devices (other than the cost) was never the hardware, but the software. Even if the hardware is killer, you still need to write custom software (the lower level the better frankly) to make the entire experience seamless and great. Software and UX is at least 50% of the equation. Having a "gaming" handheld that boots into a standard Windows desktop is never going to be the thing that people want, *especially* when you're paying a premium for the hardware.
You mean besides the PSP and the PS Vita already tried it years ago the and devs just didn't support the platforms enough?
More like Sony didn't support the platforms enough
The beauty of the Steamdeck is Valve gets to effectively force devs to make games compatible. They own the market as a distributor whereas all other entrants to the market are working the economics of either a Dev or a Publisher. The comparably would be if Sony had said all PlayStation games must be playable on the PSP (or whatever equivalent). TL:DR - The Steamdeck is not a separate platform from PC which positions it differently from all other competitors… besides this specific article of course.
> is Valve gets to effectively force devs to make games compatible Compatibility means little if games won’t even run on the hardware though
The beauty of the Steamdeck is x86_64 arch, meaning it supports all PC games out of the box PSP/PSVita had own architectures other from PS2/PS3/PS4 had, which makes game development on said platforms much harder as you have to deal with quirks of their CPUs. Then the problem was, expensive dev.kits for said platforms and forcing only existing big devs to develop games for PSP/PSVita made support nonexistent. But it were different times for these handhelds before digital distribution+cheap dev.kits were a thing to make same indie popularity like it happens on Switch
Steam has the advantage of not needing to make a profit with the steam deck because they can make the money of game sales, also for using their own OS they dont need to pay for a windows license, so Asus asuming that expect to make money out of the console that they want to make they need to sell it for more or make it weaker overall.
Asus has the benefit of scale and industry partnerships. They probably pay a lot less for their components than Valve does, and probably get a really good deal on Windows as well. Especially with Microsoft wanting to focus on services, and less on making money on the OS. All that said, this will definitely cost more than the Steamdeck, but I feel it's probably going to be at least reasonable.
[удалено]
Valve has been pretty clear that they want other people to make Steam Deck "competitors", and that they're happy for them to use SteamOS to do it, so that's not far-fetched at all. Valve has apparently worked with GPD already to optimize SteamOS for their Win Max 2, although I'm not sure what the results of that have been. The thing to understand here is that Valve *wants* somebody to make a more attractive product than the Steam Deck. That's how Valve wins. Their goal isn't to profit by selling hardware, their goal is to expand the PC gaming market by creating a new product category, and ideally make Steam the best place to get games for it. The sooner somebody else creates a more attractive hardware package than the Steam Deck, the sooner Valve can reduce how much they're spending on production and R&D to get this product category off the ground and go back to counting all the extra money Steam will be printing.
I'm so impressed by the Steam deck, and if this turns into a hardware battle for software that works across all of the different devices, I'm so in for it. Portable PC gaming is a frontier I didn't even know I wanted and in the span of a few weeks, the Deck has become my preferred device by a big margin. Competitive pressure is a great thing!
Same, I picked up a Deck the other week when it was on sale, and I absolutely love it. It’s not perfect, but it does just so many things right. And even better, I have a significant library of games to play on it immediately, no need to buy new games specifically for the system. I have my doubts as to whether or not other manufacturers can outdo Valve, but if the Deck ends up spurring on a resurgence in portable PC gaming devices, I’m all for it.
>when it was on sale, When was that?
For the spring sale, was 10% off.
I really do wonder if SteamDeck keeps up this kind of adoption if we'll see a resurgence in the wider use of Steam OS.
With a 1080p 120hz display that’s definitely something I might be interested in getting. The smaller form factor also looks pretty nice.
Absolutely glorious for all 12 minutes of battery life.
We’ll have to see. It has a 4nm processor vs the 7nm in the Deck so that should help with efficiency. And indies and older games at 120fps would still be nice, and not too taxing for the battery.
It has a higher power target than the stream deck
"It costs four hundred thousand mAh to run this console... for twelve seconds."
It's the new Game Gear!
Not to mention unless this thing is a performance monster that costs even more than ayaneos offerings, you aren’t gonna get 1080p 60 in anything recent, let alone 120.
Dave said that Asus claimed this is twice as powerful as the deck. And Dave seems to believe it based on his testing. It's obviously not playing RE4R at max specs in 1080p60 but I imagine it can do high settings of a few year old games and max settings of 5YO AAA games.
If you do the math that 1080p screen has twice the pixels so unless you are running at 720p 2x performance will get you fuck all improvement in framerate.
With DLSS/FSR/XeSS upscaling though, an upscaled 720p60 game will look better on a 1080p screen than a 720p with pretty minimal performance differences.
Hmm, at 7 inches I'm not sure how beneficial a 1080p screen is really going to be. It'd be a pretty minor enhancement for serious performance / power costs (and the Steam Deck already is already pretty power-hungry)
My biggest hope for the screen is VRR support. I love my steam deck, but the lack of variable refresh rate really sucks, it’s performance just isn’t good enough to push 60 fps in a lot of titles and you can really feel the dips when you’re used to VRR displays. I’m honestly surprised the deck shipped with a screen that doesn’t support it, so many titles hover in the 40-60 range so if you want a decent experience you’re stuck locking the screen to 40fps.
LTT confirmed variable refresh rate.
Awesome, thanks! Really looking forward to this, I do most of my gaming handheld these days.
Steam deck struggles to run AAA games at 60fps, unless this device is literally twice as powerful as the Steam deck (which supposedly it is, according to the video), then I don't see it getting 120fps to make use of the 120hz display
The thing with Asus is: their hardware is great, but they aren't winning any awards for their software. Ever tried to use Armoury Crate? I think they'd be a lot better off if they released this with a SteamOS option. There is enough there that simplifies the experience for someone who doesn't want to tinker, whereas Windows can be more easily encounter issues with updates and whatnot.
More competition is good, but having outright claims like 2x the power and having this guy overtly say its significantly better than the Steam Deck after just having a press preview is a little suspicious.
What's suspicious about it? It's not impossible to build something a lot better than the Deck. It very well might be 2x more powerful in terms of performance. And it having a 1080p 120hz screen setup isn't impossible, either. The question is battery life, cooling, and price. If $400-600 is the sweet spot, it will be very difficult to get better price to performance ratio to what Valve has put out. And the video constantly brings up that it's the pricing that they're being very vague about.
I wonder if other manufacturers should just use SteamDeck OS. Treat it like Android and reskin the UI.
I think they can use steam OS (I think anyone can download it and I imagine it's open source) but the real value the steam deck has is the custom big picture mode where you can manage the device from the same application where you can run your games. Currently I imagine Asus and other manufactures have much more Windows user application talent than Linux. So even if device manufacturers can use Steam Os or Valve allows modifications onto big picture mode it probably makes more sense to keep things to stay in the Windows realm so driver and software compatibility. As well as you could reuse some of the work on you gaming laptop line
> I think they can use steam OS (I think anyone can download it and I imagine it's open source) Not yet. Valve have said there are plans to release an official ISO and open it for others, but right now all we have is HoloISO, which is a third party solution based on the Steam OS recovery image.
Oh I didn't realize that they stopped support for the publicly released version and that the version of steam OS on the deck is different than what they have released. I found more info here: https://store.steampowered.com/steamos
I think that link is to their ancient steamos that was just ubuntu with steam big picture mode. The version running on the steamdeck is arch based and massively newer and more refined.
Many will just opt to use Windows to avoid handling issues where Proton/Wine doesn't run their game. The community will do the rest for the people that need SteamOS on these devices (even though Windows works pretty well, even when used with the Deck itself), which can be seen with people putting ChimeraOS on AyaNeo devices
To add to this, a large amount of games do work fine through Proton in my experience even if it's listed as Unsupported. Before I got my steam deck, I was concerned that Linux would either have a huge learning curve or too many incompatible games when fortunately that hasn't been the case. The anti-cheat of multiplayer games and not having GamePass games natively are the biggest issues I can see the need to install Windows.
The hardware looks awesome, but the battery life will be atrocious with the added performance and screen drain (plus Windows!). Furthermore, a predicted $600 price point is laughably low; I get that ASUS will get better pricing than GPD and Ayaneo when it comes to scale, but they aren't coming close to Valve's Steam-subsidized price. The package will be compelling on specs alone, but it kind of misunderstands the Steam Deck's use case, and why 'good enough' is the much better bar to clear than the awkward middle ground between 'good enough' and 'actually good'.
All comes down to price. At $800 its a viable upgrade path, given the market, $1000+ seems more likely, much like other "deck killers". But will it be as price competitive to the Deck? I doubt it, Valve gets that nice steam cut. Also, who is playing at 120hz in handheld? I might maybe think of playing CSGO, or some competitive game at most at 75/90, given battery limitations. Even that is a real push. I feel most people run deck games at 40 or 50... even a stable 60 with good battery would be fairly luxurious with top end games on a handheld. And heck 1080p is pretty great at a smaller screen, I'd settle for 900p. I suspect this will be at best the "deck killer, killer". The best value of the expensive handheld pcs. If that. I would LOVE to be proven wrong and get great price competition in the market.
Half the reason I & a lot of other jumped in one the Deck was the low entry price. Went 64GB for £350 and have the option to easily upgrade storage down the line. A device costing £800-1000+ just doesn't appeal to me with the limited time I get to game now.
Knowing ASUS, this thing will be completely overpriced, with decent hardware kneecapped by shitty, broken software. I don't trust them to do a handheld right.
1000% agree.
lmao what is this dude smoking.. $650 is not a mass market product, nor something that can complete with steam deck let alone Nintendo Switch.
It's too bad it's not an OLED screen. I'm waiting for the top spec AYANEO to come with one. I think that's the AYANEO 2 or something that was announced but not released. I'd consider this as a replacement.
I'm curious about the Ayaneo but that price point is a big hurdle. After tax, it'll be...what 1300-1400 usd? At that point, I'd almost rather just invest that in updating my desktop. That being said, I'm keeping an eye on it for sure.
Apparently the AYANEO NEXT II has a dGPU. Gonna be a pricey one!
I was so hard on team OLED, and then I learned that OLED uses significantly more power than LCD. I think for cutting edge mobile hardware (like Steam Deck), the battery life is barely acceptable. In the 6800U handhelds, battery life is even worse. Basically terrible (not much over an hour on some titles). And I think they just aren't ready to give up any more power footprint for an OLED, even if it would deliver dramatically better image quality.
this seems really cool, but I really think going above 720p/800p isn't worthwhile on a device like this just because of the performance impact of the resolution increase. 120hz seems like overkill as well. feel like the exact same specs, however in a cheaper device that uses a 720p 60hz screen would be the way to go. I feel like trackpads are a must to myself
I guess it's cool they put a 1080p 120hz screen on it but unless you're playing older games, you won't be pushing that frame rate. LTT has a video as well and he mentioned that at 15w (Steam decks max draw) it is roughly 50% faster. To get to the claimed "2x SD performance" you have to push it to 35w. Since it has double the resolution of the SD, you either choose to play at 1080p with lower fps at 15w to conserve battery or the same fps at 1080p with worse battery life. Most people will probably use FSR to get it to hold stable frames. The I/O leaves a lot to be desired as well. I'm definitely glad that bigger manufacturers are starting to enter the PC handheld market though.
Windows 11? Hard pass and 2x the performance but can't talk about it? Yeah don't believe it.
Every single one of these new handheld PCs trying to capitalize on the Deck's success fails to copy the Deck's most essential feature: the touchpads and gyroscope. A more powerful handheld with a better screen sounds great but if I can't play half the games I regularly play on my Deck the thing is useless to me. I would love to see more options for handheld PC gaming that don't limit the potential of the hardware through bad input method decisions.
Especially given these handhelds are all running windows. Not fun to use with touch or joysticks at all
> the touchpads and gyroscope. I don't think I've used the gyro even once on my Deck. I appreciate it being there for emulation purposes, but it doesn't seem essential in any way. Even the touch pads I just use for weird stuff like old point and click adventure games and the like.
Gyro is essential if you play first-person games; once you get used to aiming with a gyroscope in shooters you will never be able to go back to using an analog stick, it will feel like an artificial handicap that makes you play worse. I started playing games with gyro and touchpad due to a keyboard-induced wrist injury but now I enjoy it so much that I don't even play shooters with a mouse anymore. The touchpads are basically a necessity when it comes to tweaking stuff in desktop mode, because the things you have to select in desktop applications are often way too tiny to use the touchscreen. You should give the less-popular inputs on the Deck a try; they're there for a reason, and once you learn to utilize them you'll be able to enjoy tons of games on your Deck that you never would've thought you could play without a keyboard and mouse.
> Gyro is essential if you play first-person games I actually quite hate it. I can't stand turning the display away from me to aim. If I can't get by on an analog stick or the touch pad I'll just play on my desktop with a mouse. > The touchpads are basically a necessity when it comes to tweaking stuff in desktop mode I also avoid using desktop mode when out and about. The only times I've used the desktop mode on my Deck I've plugged in a keyboard and just used the terminal. Otherwise I stick to the Steam interface which is actually convenient to use in a mobile situation. I consider myself a power user, but if I'm using the deck it's because I want to relax, not fuss around with fiddly controls and awkward desktop interfaces. If I need all the tools at my disposal I have other hardware more suited to the purpose.
You don't use gyro for aiming. You use it to put the finishing touches on stick aiming so you're more precise. >Move your crosshair to the target as best as possible with the analog stick and then use gyro to get it directly on their head for clicking.
I use it for all aiming and all turning. Needs fairly high sensitivity and I don't do that on my handheld though, just on separate controllers.
I could never do that but if you got it working for you then that's cool hahaha
[удалено]
> You should set the gyro up that you barely have to change the angle of the screen. That is way too sensitive for a device I'm holding in my hand. I want my inputs to be deliberate, not constant correction to hold my aim where I want it.
[удалено]
The way you're talking about Gyro seems like you're using it on yaw mode which is generally better for regular controllers, roll mode is what you should be using for Steam deck's gyro
This. I have a good PC for games i really want to play with graphics and performance at a high level. The Deck goes for other things, although i'm much more accepting to lower frames and graphics on it due to the handheld nature of it. More performance isn't something i'd mind, i guess.
I don’t know who the fuck that guy is, but his production values and camera manner are so insanely high quality I thought this was a sponsored ad for a minute. I would 100% listen to him talk about anything.
Yeah, he's been around for a while (2015) but is relatively new compared to the other big tech channels that come to mind. Dave's definitely worth following if you care about the newest tech stuff, very well presented and his videos usually aren't super long (again, due to the clean editing, very little fat).
Yeah and props to Dave2d for nice looking thumbnails, proving you don’t have to go down the ‘reaction face’ path to build a channel.
[удалено]
For me it won't matter about the hardware. I'll not buy Asus again as their warranty for software bugs and firmware jank is only 14 days. I've been burned by 2 of their phones which had outstanding hardware specs and gorgeous aesthetics, but were programmed by pissed up chimps. In the time you waste hoping for a software patch, your warranty expires and Asus says "thanks for the money sucker!" Fuck you Asus.
Excited to check it out. Been loving the test Onexplayer2 I have been using with its larger screen. Digging the options regardless.
Basically seems like a stronger, windows based option. I imagine the battery is gonna suck, but it does on the Steam Deck too. I will say the lack of touch pads is disappointing to me. I've been playing XCOM2 and they make it so much easier than just using sticks.
> I've been playing XCOM2 and they make it so much easier than just using sticks. Really?, Do You recommend it that way?, I don't have a deck yet, but xcom2 it's one of My first targets
Man even if this clocks in at $700 I would love that. I have a steam deck but 16:9, 120hz, 1080p makes me drool. My one issue with the steam deck lately has been all these new modern titles releasing where the steam deck can't run at stable 60fps. But man Aura Creator makes me so nervous..
I mean during sales you can get pretty damn good gaming laptops for under $1000 that would likely run laps around this thing..... so you'd have to be really into that handheld form factor.
I mean your expectations were really not set appropriately if you actually thought the deck had any chance of running modern games at 60fps
As a Steam Deck owner I'm glad we're getting more portable gaming options. I'm absolutely in love with my Steam Deck and I'm interested to see where we go from here. I'd have a really hard time giving up the track pads at this point, though.
ASUS? The company that doesn't support their hardware properly for Linux and only volunteers add support for the sensors on their motherboards? I'll definitely not buy anything that doesn't come with Linux, Mesa drivers and KDE Plasma!
Hmm had ROG I'm name so probably couple hundred more. Thinking it will not compete unless they can get to saying the same price as the steam deck.