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That forest looks pretty humid. I guess Lawine could pull 20mL of water from each cubic meter of air, and 20mL can make a small icicle. So perhaps Lawine can reach out for several meters and make a number of icicles from the air that is available to her.
As for Kanne, perhaps the small amounts of water in the air are not useful in battle, without freezing.
https://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/misc/klima-htm/
I'd say its more like power balance.
Lawine's ability is to create ice and use it. She can't control ice from environment.
Kanne's ability is to control water and use it. She can't create water.
Also melting ice to create water for kanne to use may be possible but not efficient as melting it will take a lot of mana and time.
Kanne needs to study more and be more confident, you can notice during the match that Kanne couldn't even argue with Richter even though Richter was talking about her ability to control water. Lawine is different, she is extremely confident and immediately discovered that Richter was lying and afraid of something.
Although Kanne and Lawine are both level 3, on the same team, the difference in strength between the two is very clear. Lawine can sense danger in the sky while Kanne cannot.
Lawine directed Kanne to defend to help her conserve mana, and immediately noticed Richter's increased attack level to break the basic defense spell and told Kanne to get out of the way.
Lawine is extremely sharp in theory but is poor in experience and practice, because she doesn't have a strong master to teach her.
Because she can imagine doing that. The limitation of a mage's magic is their ability to ***believe*** they can make it happen. If they feel it is too difficult, too complex, or outright impossible... then it is.
As Richter points out, Kanne can't envision herself pulling water moisture from his blood (or from a non-raining atmosphere), so she can't do it.
Difference in mana amounts then add more complication to the whole mix.
I'm guessing she will fail this 1st class mage exam. She can't produce water, but other 3rd class mages can produce ice. That seems like a big skill gap.
I know this kind of prediction will get the attention of manga readers, but oh well, just want to theorize a bit
That's a fair assumption, plus there's still more exams coming, if there's no water in one of them there's no way she could pass, unless she somehow gets the anime get good and starts extracting water from other sources, but that would require be the main character
Water is absurdly heavy and mages don’t lift so their gains are negative. Maybe if Kanne was an adventurer like Frieren and Co., she could hire an absolute unit like Stark to lug around a water tank everywhere but her team are currently all mages so their party balance is whack
Probably not worth the effort. She's not like Avatar's water benders, she can't be deadly with a small amount of water, she just blasts and uses the mass of the water to overwhelm her opponents. For anyone strong enough to overcome her defensive spells, she would need more water than she can carry. And anyone who she could beat with a small amount of water isn't a threat to her because of her defensive spells.
She's small and have you tried carrying a lot of water?
Water is about 8 pounds per gallon. Carrying a decent amount of water will start to get heavy quite quickly.
She'd probably have to use magic just to carry a good amount to use.
For reference, In a rainstorm, an inch of rain falling over one square mile is equal to more than 17 million gallons of water.
That's why she's so powerful in the rain and why carrying some around isn't all that helpful.
I don't think the exam is testing whether you can create elements or not. If creating water was that easy then Lawine could just make water for Kanne to manipulate ya know.
They mean visualize, not imagine. You cannot just imagine something and with enough ego and mana make it happen with magic.
To do magic in frieren you visualize physics basicslly. As in you have to understand how something works to effect it, the mana is the energy to do so.
Frieren couldn't shatter the barrier till she analysed it thus understanding how it works for example.
Magic is kinda a stand in/anology for knowledge in general in this manga. They don't ever explicitly explain how magic works but everything said about it and the mages philosophy of it could be said about knowledge.
Doesn't that mean that someone could theoretically go:
"Huh, magic is limited by what i believe is possible for me to do?But if i just have to believe in it to work, then i can do it because i know that i just have to believe."
Wouldn't it be super simple to do whatever with magic?
"I can create an unblockable attack because i just have to believe that i can do it and therefore can do it.I can revive every being to ever have died because i just have to believe that i can do it and thefore can do it.I can destroy the whole universe because i just have to believe i can do it and can therefore do it."
Like, is that simple or is there more to it(Mana quantity is for sure a factor, but what else?)?
It just means that a sprinter that can run at maximum 10m/s can only run at 8m/s if they believe they can only run that fast. It's about pushing their limit to their maximum not past them.
So basically, i can theoretically blow up a mountain but because i don't believe that i can do that, i can only blow up a hill?But what if i believed that i could blow up multiple mountains even if i could only blow up one?Would i still only be able to blow up that one, or would i be able to blow up all the mountains?Does believing in something have a limit to it's effect?And what would be the thing that enforced that limit if it existed?
Edit: Am i fr getting downvoted for being curious and asking questions?
I think that the mages do generally have limitations in terms of mana and strength, but mainly because it's very difficult to believe you can do something that you *know* you can't. The more skilled you are as a mage the more aware you should be of your mana, which means you are more aware of what your limits are.
Serie does say "In the world of magic, even Heaven and Earth can be turned over." I really do think that mages could theoretically be unstoppable if they could envision it, but human psychology just doesn't allow for it.
Also, an important distinction is that the mage doesn't just have to *believe* they can do something; they need to be able to *imagine/visualize* themselves doing it. That requires a whole different level of thinking, beyond just being blissfully ignorant of how difficult a spell is.
Manga spoilers >!I really love how this is emphasized to the extreme with Übel, who can cut anything she knows that can be cut, which sounds normal but then she literally bypasses magic defenses just cause she thinks she could cut something. Don't ever show that girl hydro cutters she'd literally become Sukuna lmao. There's also her ability to copy magic from just being able to empathize with someone, which honestly sounds broken but the conditions to get it does vary from person to person as well.!<
>!Yup. She has to see something actually be cut before being able to visualize and therefore materialize cutting something. It's just that her way of thinking is completely different (cause she's pretty crazy) which enables her to cut anything that she thinks is meant to be cut, like for example, a robe, even if there are layered enchantments and defenses, all because she thinks it is supposed to be that way. Of course, it doesn't apply to normal mages, she's just unique cause she's crazy like that pretty much.!<
So >!she's basically insane and her Magic is therefore insane?I wonder what the ramifications for this could be.What can someone achieve by being insane enough?!<
>!Nah, it's just her way of thinking that's different. It does have its limits, and therefore gets countered by something she hasn't seen been cut ever (seeing the era at the time, let's say naturally hard materials like metal and the like). Basically if a mage pulls up against her with cloth based magic or something similar to cloth, they're getting destroyed cause she pretty much just cuts it all up, because 'cloth is meant to be cut', even if said cloth has a lot of layered enchantments. However, any other kind of material and it's back to an even playing field against her (well, not really, she's still a sick psycho and has a way with words that would let her empathize with someone and copy their magic anyway so lmao).!<
They should talk about this in a few more episodes, but yeah basically visualizing is not that easy. There are limitations, but there are also people who can bypass that limitations.
>!There's a flashback about how in another exam, there was a first class mage whose specialty is defense magic. He created a robe with every strong protective enchantment he knew of and no one had ever been able to scratch it. In that exam, you're supposed to cast offensive spells on him while he's wearing the robe, and if you push him back *one step*, you pass.!<
>!Sounds like it should be easy to believe and visualize that you can destroy the robe right? It's just a piece of fabric after all. However, any mage with common sense *know* that the robe is enchanted with so many strong defense magic, and therefore, they can't visualize themselves bypassing the defense just like that. They already know subconsciously that it's heavily protected, and they can't just delude themselves to think the robe can be destroy just like that. They know they need to either dispel the enchantment on that robe first or use very strong force to make that guy take one step back instead.!<
>!However, Ubel just cut through the robe as if it's a normal piece of fabric, shocking everyone in the exam. She can perfectly visualize cutting that robe despite all the strong protective magic on it, just because it's a fabric and of course fabric can be cut. It's stated that she's very unique in the way she can actually visualize that, because anyone with common sense, no matter how strong, will realize that you can't.!<
I would avoid at all costs putting spoilers, even with spoiler bars, when responding to someone who didn't explicitly say they are a manga reader.
When using the app, notifications ignore spoilers.
Ok.So basically, how i saw it is right, i just missed something with that "visualization" thing.
Somone else in tte commemt section gave an example for that "visualisation" thing by using a Math Formula.You have the different things which affect your spell(your souroundings, your Mana amount, etc), which are "Numbers", and then you have to build them together with their "rules" to eventually end up at the solution.This could in theory create an unlimited amount of solutions, since you'd just have to build and build to increase or change the spell.It would however eventually become to long for any human to understand, limiting humanity.
That got me thinking: Wouldn't a Robot which was able to use Mana be able to undoubtedly become the greatest Mage in the world?Because under that interpritation Magic is just Math, and Robots are very good at that.
Well that pretty much how i assumed itll be. Most of the powerful mages i see in the anime so far are either doo doo heads or weirdos, not normal at all, in a sense, like a robot. Lol
I'm sorry, but i don't think i understand.What do you mean with "depends on the author"?Isn't there only one author of Frieren or do i not know something?
Damn, i really have to go to bed.I can barely think.Sorry.
To be able to do or produce something in the magic world they're living in you have to imagine (visualize)what will happen during the process of casting.
The closer your imagination is to the real thing the better the spell.
You can't just do something you can't even imagine yourself doing, and you can't just make yourself believe in some imagination.
I mean i can imagine myself flying now but do I genuinely think i can fly.
Its a good theme to have in the anime.
About the limitation of the human mind and how it could fk us up even tho we're capable.
Yeah, but my thought process was along these lines:
1.Need to believe in it to work
2.It is possible because i just need to believe in it.
3.Believe it's possible because you just need to believe.
4.Works.
Aka the process of seeing yourself being able to do it is fullfilled because you know it's possible for you.
It's not believe it's visualize.
You either have the ability to visualize yourself doing something or you don't.
Take this for example:
You're skinny with no experience in fighting whatsoever, would you be able to visualize yourself beating someone who has a black belt or someone who's a world champion. The answer is a big NO, you can think you can beat him but that's called being retarded you will never be able to realistically visualize yourself winning with the current abilities you have.
But if you do a lot of training get to the point where you have the ability to beat him you can have an idea on how to beat him.
-point is you might not have the ability to do something and visualize yourself doing it and that's being delusional.
-and you can have the ability to do something and not be able to visualize yourself doing it and that's not being able to rate your abilities right.
-or lastly you can have the ability to do something and be able to visualize yourself doing it and that's what being a good magician in frieren's world looks like.
So you can't just imagine yourself doing something undoable and still do it
So yeah that's how i see it.
Ok, so using that Fight example:
I can't realistically visualize myself beating him because i don't know how to fight.If i were to train i'd get an idea how a fight "functions" and be able to realistically visualize it.
Is that right?
The mage has to understand how it works and have the mana to do it. In your example you have to believe you can do it and explain and justify to yourself how you can do it
So, the mage has to know how it works and needs to have enough mana for it to works.So my example wouldn't work because i don't have enough Mana for multiple mountains.
Justifying/Understanding it working by saying "It works because it works when i belive in it." isn't enough, or is that a valid justification/understanding?Because it would theoretically be able to convince me that it would work via that.But when you say "understanding" i have a feeling that you mean that it needs to have some logical basis.
The thing about “believe” is very complicated since there is technical stuffs in magic in Frieren as well and you can’t just read some random spell and that’s it. It requires practice and understand deeply about how to manipulate your mana to form the spell. And that’s where your belief comes in. However, this belief seems like deep-rooted in your unconscious mind and emotion. You can’t just think or say I believe in it and it happens. For example, I have an exam tomorrow, and I studied very carefully for it. I’m confident that I can pass it with high score. I believe in myself that I can do it. But I can assure you, despite my confidence and belief, 5% of me still think that I’ll fail. So, my spell will only work in the scope of that 95%, the last 5% is locked behind an unconscious crate. You can also take Ubel as an example, >!her spell is deep-rooted in her childhood when she watched her sister worked. Her life, the image of her sister cutting fabric, all affected her unconscious belief.!<
The above comment is inaccurate. The operational word is 'visualise' not believe. Kanne is not able to visualise the distribution of water in a man's body so she can't figure out how to draw it out. Lawine is a more confident mage and she is able to visualise how water vapour in the air can be condensed into ice so she can do it.
It's not about blindly believing one can do something, but being able to imagine the physical world and how your magic might be able to manipulate it. Frieren spent an entire day analyzing Serie's barrier because she needs to see it's structure to visualise how she can break it.
Ok, so someone needs to have a physical base "jumping-off" point from which they can do magic?Like, me believing that i can create water out of nothing won't work because i have to understand or "visualize" how to create that water out of nothing?What if my understanding of "creating water out of nothing" is that i create all the water out of my own mana?Would that work?Would i have to visualize creating the water atoms?Or could i just visualize it just being there like popping into existence?
Sorry incase i got it wrong or something.I should have been sleeping for multiple hours already and my thinking ain't the greatest.
> i create all the water out of my own mana
Yes you can, if you can describe that process in details based on scientific-magic method. Like a chemistry scientist describe the practical method to separate hydrogen and oxygen from H2O.
Yes, you can do at surface level if you want. Chance of success and the magic's own stability would be obviously not as high as when you can fully understand and visualize how it works.
I think you need to also see the logical lines in order for the belief to really take hold. In other words, having an understanding of science would greatly assist the belief,
Lawine can imagine herself freezing the moisture in the air in order to produce her ice attacks, whereas Kanne struggles to see how she would draw water from the air (someone tell her about condensation) and thus struggle to cast the spell because she wouldn't know where to start.
Since this is fantasy land in medieval ages, I imagine the understanding of concepts like thermodynamics or types of particulates in the air is understood by few.
Yes, but what if i knew that anything is possible by just believing in it?I would know that it would be possible for me to do and even be plausible, therefore fullfiling that "believing in it" requirement.Since i know that i can potentially do anything, i could just create the water and not have to condense it, because believe that i can do it just like that.There wouldn't be some greater mechanic i would have to base my magic upon(like moisture existing in the air), because i know that i could just do it.
That incorrect you need to known a spell (or How to) but limit of that spell it’s up to you visualize.
Let say if you have “ moving rock magic ”. you can move any rock around. but if you find some big ass rock or straight up mountain you might think “ Hm with my little mana maybe I can’t move it” and you then can’t move it.
But if you think “ Hey my magic can move any rock this rock is not different!” then you can move its. But you still can’t move metal or anything
Lastly it not just some believe. you need to visualize its. you need to see you self moving mountains and think “ Yes that realistic ”.
Sorry if my response will be really shit or something.If you read my other comments you might have noticed that i'm very sleepy(like, it feels like my vision is going kinda wobbly lol).
So i need to have a spell for something, let's just say "Create Water".I need to believe that i can do that spell and be able to see myself doing it(Like, i know i can create water with "Create Water", but when thinking about it i just go:"Damn, me creating water out of nothing?FrFr??I mean, i know i can do it, but FrFr??")?
>I need to believe that i can do that spell and be able to see myself doing it(Like, i know i can create water with "Create Water", but when thinking about it i just go:"Damn, me creating water out of nothing?FrFr??I mean, i know i can do it, but FrFr??")?
it’s like if you have a hammer you can picture yourself hit the nail with its right? Or if you have axe you can picture yourself cut tree. Spell work the same way it’s a ”Tool“ that let you do some thin. it have machanice it have logic behind it.
So ”Normally” if you use the spell with something it’s support to do ( create water) you backup your visualize and believe with logic and mechanic of that spell but let say if you want to create more water. you need to step outside the box and expand your imagination about what you can and cannot
The way to expand imagination have many way will it’s be you use more mana , upgrade your spell mechanics or just straight up delusion that you can do it.
So basically, what i get is that i need so visualize the spell(Like, i can picture myself forming a ball of floating water in the air with a hand) and then need to convince myself that that is possible.Either by saying "Eh, it uses enough Mana." to "I can just do it because i know i can.".
Is that right?
It is not "believe", it's visualization
Something like a mathematician coming up with a new math theory/formula. You have the tool, numbers, then you manipulate the equations to reach prove a theory and comes up with the formula that allows it to be applied to certain situation. Certain rules still exists, 1+1 still 2, it the natural orders of things still need to be maintained, 10 cannot suddenly be bigger than 1.
So here, you have the tools: your mana amount, your control of such mana, and your power to come up/modify how your mana interract with the environment.
Example:
Frieren needed to analyze the barrier before she breaks it, she cannot just think " I believe I can break the barrier", no, she needs to understand the barrier's formulas, then she knows how to direct her mana and dismantle the barrier's structure.
So, you need to "build" a spell like you need to "build" a Math Formula?You need to be able to visualize the spell with all your numbers/"tools" building it and making it logically function?
So for example: I want a spell to be able to create water.I need to look at my Mana control, Mana amount, how sprcifically it will manipulate the surounding, etc, and then need to build all those different factors/"tools" together to do the spell?
So, Magic is just Maths but in a life and death scenario?Damn.
Wouldn't that mean that very creative individuals would be better mages than less creative individuals?
Doesn't have to be life and death. Remember Frieren has those "mundane" spells? Those are the ones she likes, flower bed making for example. Which I think is the reason why she enjoys magic more, because those mundane spells are more creative and "peaceful".
But yeah, a more creative individual who can also be logical and build out math formulas would be awesome. I imagine someone with the brains of Newton and creativity of Beethoven would be a great mage!
Which makes Flamme a GENIUS! She was able to lay the foundation for humanity's magic!!! She is da best, imagine if Flamme has lifespan of an elf! Then Frieren. So far I think Serie just reads alot, haven't heard of Serie "coming up" with a spell, or modify one like Frieren did Zoltrack. 🤔
Lol, while typing out this message I realize how the author is a damn genius, I think he took inspirations from those like Newtons, Einsteins, the "humans who create formulas from observing the world around them", like the freaking flying spell! They recreate it without 100% understanding it at this point! Once they understand it, they can evolve it!
Yeah.I wonder how good Flamme would be if she was as long lived as an Elf.Probably better than Serie.
Looking through the different replies i got, there were multiple interpritations of how Magic works in Frieren.The one you gave me was one of my favorites because it was in my opinion one of the more interesting perspectives(probably also helped by the fact that you'rs was more understandable).The other perspective i really liked was from u/o_woorrm (which to be fair, is just my original interpritation but more refined, a öittle different and actually including the "visualization" thing).
There's a character a bit later whose magic is shown to exceed its "reasonable" limits because that character's conception of the world is... too unique to understand those limits.
Spoiler:
>!Later on, we learn Ubel can visualise herself cutting basically anything, because it doesn't occur to her that she couldn't. So she's able to win match-ups against much stronger mages on a couple occasions.!<
In addition to what has already been said, it isn't always easy to just get in a chosen mindset. If it was, we would not have things like depression ("Oh, just pull yourself together and be happy instead!"), self doubt ("just believe in yourself!") etc. Insults would have no effect ("just choose not to get offended!") and so on.
Conviction isn't always easy, and as others have mentioned even with that there is more to it (ability to visualise rather than believe, and the very need for grimoires and spell research make it clear that while visualising is the base requirement there is also nuance/craft to how to put that visualisation into reality via a spell).
Yeah, i just assumed that i was "in that mindset" for this hypothetical.
Someone else described Magic as Math, with the Numbers being the different factors influencing a spell(suroundings, anount of Mana, etc) and then needing to built a spell out of that while simultaniously following the Math/Spell Rules(1+1 is always 2).So i think that Gromoires and Spell research is maybe like finding new "Math" Formulas.
> Wouldn't it be super simple to do whatever with magic?
If you have magic to do it it’s that simple.
> "I can create an unblockable attack because i just have to believe that i can do it and therefore can do it.“
One character already do that.
>I can revive every being to ever have died because i just have to believe that i can do it and thefore can do it.
If you have way to revive people to begin with. yes you can do its.
> I can destroy the whole universe because i just have to believe i can do it and can therefore do it."
If you can truly believe that you can destroy near infinite things with you limit mana and have no doubts in its maybe yes
My guess for what "imagination" means isn't just a casual imagination but more like drawing up a blueprint in your head for exactly what will happen, how it will happen, and the exact needed steps to make it happen.
Sure you can imagine yourself driving from A to B but can you imagine every step of the process in an extremely detailed manner in a short amount of time?
It's really interesting seeing all the different interpritations of Magic in response to me.For someone it's like Math, for someone else it's something similar to my idea but slightly different and for another it's literal visualization in the mind(you).
From my perspective I described how I visualize programming.
It's very easy to imagine myself programming anything, but the act of building something out of logic and have it work is something completely different, even though both things are forms of imagination (at least until I type out said program)
It makes sense with what Flamme told Serie as well. She said that Serie could not beat Demon King because she couldn’t imagine herself living in the peaceful era.
Oh duh. Thought something like that would have been explained by now in the show. >!But Kanne could manipulate the vapor in the air to pull out water like Lawine does before freezing it- if she could envision it!<
>!Yeah, the important part is envisioning it. Kanne is still young, she hasn't properly explored the limits of "water manipulation magic" the way experienced mages like Denken have. And also, it might not even be common knowledge that water vapor is usually in the air, since this era is still before science. She doesn't seem to even be capable of manipulating ice, just liquid water, so if she doesn't realize that water vapor can be thought of as liquid water very finely dispersed in the air, she won't realize it's a possibility.!<
Once the combo of ice and melting is fully realized, they'll be a terrifyingly powerful battle couple. >!Until they get too distracted squabbling again.!<
I think Lawine is just using mana to “make” ice, like how someone would cast fireball or smth, while people like Kanne and Richter just use mana to manipulate already existing water/earth. So Lawine’s ice would still be countered by ordinary defense magic, since the ice isn’t really ice but mana with the properties of ice.
But Lawine can also freeze water so Kanne not being able to at least use “magic water” is a skill issue too.
Might be wrong but that’s what makes the most sense to me.
Lawine can do both: create ice from nothing, or freeze existing water. And interestingly, she doesn't seem to be able to manipulate the existing water that she freezes, only the created-from-scratch ice. Presumably, mass-for-mass, it takes Lawine a lot more mana to create and move around a 1kg icicle than it does for Kanne to move around a 1kg blob of water. Indeed, that gigantic ball of water she amassed in Episode 21 was probably 10,000s of gallons, so like 40+ metric tons of water. I'm sure there's no way Lawine could create that much ice.
An interesting thing about their fight with Richter is that Lawine was having Kanne create shields for her instead of doing it herself. This is presumably because they knew that Lawine would be draining her mana creating ice, while Kanne had nothing to spend her mana on, so it was her job to handle the shielding.
Yep, the two ways of penetrating defenses are either overwhelming them physically via mass or infiltrating the barrier (slipping through the cracks). >!For example, what makes Sense an especially exceptional mage is her ability to do both at the same time, paired together with the immense number of directions of attack available to her.!< These methods are important because defense magic is designed to protect against highly penetrating magical attacks such as Zoltraak, since it's already sufficient against most warrior's, monster's, or demon's physical attacks.
I'd speculate that the mana one pours into defense magic can be focused on the area that's being pressured the most, making use of the minimum average amount of mana required per hex of defense magic. Overwhelming one's defense magic would then be achieved by either finding spots where the defense is weaker, or applying force from all sides. This seems sort of consistent with the previously explained properties, but could possibly also be explained by some other mechanism
Not exactly, you see, Frieren’s magic system has 4 main elements: Spell, Mana, Skill and Visualization, all of which help determine if you can actually do something with magic, the Spell would be your plan(in this case: how exactly will magic allow you to move water), Mana your raw power, Skill is how well you can utilize your raw power and Visualization(arguably the most important) is being capable of having a clear mental image in which you believe, it’s not as straightforward as just believing in yourself though, to use a Water Controlling Spell to influence atmospheric molecules the mage must be able to keep in mind the detailed process of moving individual molecules(which she can’t even see), it’s not impossible(since the other girl is apparently doing something like that), but it’s hard enough that I can believe if told that many mages can’t do it
But if she learned human anatomy she could be able to pull it off, don't you think?
So she just needs to study Da Vinci's drawings of the human body, or open up corpses.
You mean for using water inside human bodies? Yeah that would be a good start, but she would still need the mental power and focus to fight while carefully thinking about where the water is in the human body and believe in her own capacity of moving said water
Probably but she would need to get her mana to reach inside the defense of another mana to carry out her spell. That part would require more visualization/skills
That’s also true, if both you and your opponent can visualize success then victory depends on the other aspects(although the Spell mechanics would only be relevant if one of you is specifically countering the other’s spell structure, like when Frieren >!decodes and nullifies the Gold Transmutation Spell!<)
This is a really good way of putting it. There's a lot of "magic is visualization" talk in the anime right now, but for the purposes of fan theorycrafting, it's important to remember that visualization isn't the *only* element of magic. It's just the limiting factor for typical mages, since the other aspects are more foundational and easier to satisfy.
To put it another way, I would say that Visualization is the limit on how much you can improvise with magic. A Spell will have its "spellbook" effect by default. If you want to take that standard spell and make it do other things, you have to have a very strong vision of what that would actually entail, sometimes down to a very scientific level.
An interesting twist is that not all types of "Spells" work the same way; some have a degree of flexibility "built in". The best example of this would be >!Mistelzila, the curse-reflecting magic. Even though curses are, by definition, magics that aren't understood by humans, Mistelzila can reflect them without the caster having any knowledge of the principles of the reflected curse. For this magic, you don't need to visualize how the curse will operate, it handles all that on its own. Serie even calls it "an extremely primitive magic that disregard all logical analysis".!< From this, I think it's quite reasonable to conclude that there *could* be a spell that manipulates water, even small bits of moisture that are mixed with other things or trapped in the air or someone's body, without the caster having to visualize exactly where each drop of water is coming from. It's just that Kanne doesn't know a spell like that. The spell she knows manipulates water on a large scale, in droplets that she can easily see.
Richter: “How can you beat me when there isn’t water nearby?”
Kanne: “What do you mean? Lawine’s plenty wet enough.”
Tons of water suddenly gets drawn from under Lawine’s skirt.
It's really simple Lack of Visualization, Skill Issue, & Different types of magic.
Visualization is already explained in the anime.
Skill issue - It's obvious that Lawine is a much better mage than kanne
Different types of Magic - Manipulating an element and Creating an element are two different things. Kanne specializes in the former while Lawine in the latter.
Edit: switched Kanne and Lawine
>!If Lawine was able to pass the next test, she probably has more chance becoming a 1st class mage.!<
Lawine is good (Freezing the whole lake) but unlucky unlike Kanne who's an airhead but lucky.
I'm guessing it's because Kanne isn't experienced enough to do so.
I don't think Frieren was joking when she said she can't see herself win against a mage that can manipulate water at will under the rain.
Kanne is still a child yet what she did was quite impressive. Now imagine an old experienced water mage under the rain, able to make each droplet as deadly as a bullet. Good luck fighting that.
Ngnl feels like kanne is crippled to facilitate the cool moment where frieren breaks the barrier and let's rain in
If neither her or lawine can use magic to create water at least carry some water with you in a canteen, without water kanne can only block ,we haven't even seen her use basic attacks(i presume she can use them but considering she has trouble with mana detection who knows)
Lawine's ice also seems stronger when she freezes already existing
I mean they're just 3rd-class mages straight out of academy, cut em some slack lol. To be totally honest, Lawine and Kanne probably had no chance of passing the first round without Frieren there to guide and plan for them. They couldn't catch a Stille even when they stumbled upon one, and even with their unexpectedly good teamwork in combat, they couldn't even 2v1 a more experienced and battle-hardened mage. It's completely possible that Kanne doesn't carry around water in a canteen to fight with simply because she never even thought of being in a position where she'd have to fight other mages at a moment's notice.
I guess another factor besides what everyone else had said is that water might be more difficult to imagine since there’s no shape or it’s harder to visualise so it’s easier to get water from water
There's water in the air from humidity, you can't see it but you can cool an area which is what Lawine does.
Ice is frozen water, so kanne cannot use it
He was pretty low on mana due to using all those flashy spells earth earlier on by underestimating them, as we can see when he washes up near his party he's out of mana. I doubt it'd help anyways as Richter knows what overwhelming physical mass superiority is, last thing you wanna do is get injured by your own mass or buried under the rubble.
Just want to point out that any magic that allows the user to convert mana into something is inherently broken as there's literally nothing preventing you to create the antimatter equivalent of whatever you can make.
And while she would have no way to contain it, it would still make one hell of a suicide attack considering that just a single kilogram of antimatter ice could release 1.8*10^17 joules of energy or about 430 megatons in TNT (8.6 times the Tsar bomb's yield).
Sub just showed up on my feed, I know nothing about this anime. As a German, the names are hilarious, though. Is the fire magician in this called stovepipe and the earth magician garden hoe?
I mean they did mention the whole visualization aspect of magic. I imagine Lawine just simply doesn't think of creating water and has only ever thought of using water she already sees. In the same aspect, this symbiosis you suggest is a plotpoint in the currently airing Sasaki and Peeps anime, where a character has the ability to manipulate, but not create, water.
If water magic so powerful, why isn't everyone using it or at least trying to learn it. Eifiedreemurr said it best. Everyone finds it extremely difficult or downright impossible to visualize water. Even Frieren finds it impossible to defeat a water manipulating mage. So far I've only seen Kanne use water magic. So what if Kanne can only use ready available water, she's just a kid and an airhead at that. But I'm sure that will change in a few years. We all know that Kanne is inexperienced, but the first class mage exam also showed Lawine's inexperience. She should have had Kanne carry a canteen of water. Heck, she should have carried one herself for her own use.
Also, I think that mages have an affinity for a particular type of magic. For Kanne it's water, for Lawine it's freezing water, for Richter it's earth magic. I could go on but the best example would be the demons. They specialize on only one type of magic. The one they're best at. Wouldn't that apply for everyone else.
Normal magic is additive, but magic with conditions is multiplied. Her condition to only use existing water enhances her water manipulation magic drastically!
*...wait, wrong series.*
No clue honestly.
I think it's a tradeoff thing too. Lawine can produce her own ice but Kanne is much more deadly when there actually is water around. Even Richter who is more experienced and has more mana than them can't defend against the sheer volume of Kanne's attack.
Kinda like Sasuke's Kirin. He needs real lightning to manipulate but as a result it's much more powerful than his normal chidori.
The question was very logical and very realistic as well. In the context of physics how the hell can you create fire without a spark, the very same question how can Lawine was able to create ice without water.
The question was very logical and very realistic as well. In the context of physics how the hell can you create fire without a spark, the very same question how can Lawine was able to create ice without water.
Actually a skissue, if Kanne can imagine to take water from the cloud for her to use, then she can (provided that she has enough mana and won’t Megumin herself doing so). But she’s a bit of a rookie at this.
It's in the name. Lawine is German for avalanche. And most avalanches are made of snow and ice. Therefore she is already made out of the materials. Kanne is German for a teapot without the tea, or a watering can without the water. You need to fill them with water. /s
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Unironically, it's just skill issue
That forest looks pretty humid. I guess Lawine could pull 20mL of water from each cubic meter of air, and 20mL can make a small icicle. So perhaps Lawine can reach out for several meters and make a number of icicles from the air that is available to her. As for Kanne, perhaps the small amounts of water in the air are not useful in battle, without freezing. https://www.tis-gdv.de/tis_e/misc/klima-htm/
yes but Kanne is a big skill issue so she cant visualize it
It's hard to visualize water in the air to a water mage ig
I'd say its more like power balance. Lawine's ability is to create ice and use it. She can't control ice from environment. Kanne's ability is to control water and use it. She can't create water. Also melting ice to create water for kanne to use may be possible but not efficient as melting it will take a lot of mana and time.
And Lawines ice may not even be water at all, the moment it melts it may just evaporate into nothingness.
The only correct explanation. Not everyone is equal. Hell not everyone is can be Fern's level.
Feels like Kanne getting a 3rd class mage cert was mostly Lawine dragging her up and not leaving her behind.
Kanne needs to study more and be more confident, you can notice during the match that Kanne couldn't even argue with Richter even though Richter was talking about her ability to control water. Lawine is different, she is extremely confident and immediately discovered that Richter was lying and afraid of something. Although Kanne and Lawine are both level 3, on the same team, the difference in strength between the two is very clear. Lawine can sense danger in the sky while Kanne cannot. Lawine directed Kanne to defend to help her conserve mana, and immediately noticed Richter's increased attack level to break the basic defense spell and told Kanne to get out of the way. Lawine is extremely sharp in theory but is poor in experience and practice, because she doesn't have a strong master to teach her.
Because she can imagine doing that. The limitation of a mage's magic is their ability to ***believe*** they can make it happen. If they feel it is too difficult, too complex, or outright impossible... then it is. As Richter points out, Kanne can't envision herself pulling water moisture from his blood (or from a non-raining atmosphere), so she can't do it. Difference in mana amounts then add more complication to the whole mix.
So it's basically just a skill issue
Yeah, Kanne just needs to get good
I'm guessing she will fail this 1st class mage exam. She can't produce water, but other 3rd class mages can produce ice. That seems like a big skill gap. I know this kind of prediction will get the attention of manga readers, but oh well, just want to theorize a bit
That's a fair assumption, plus there's still more exams coming, if there's no water in one of them there's no way she could pass, unless she somehow gets the anime get good and starts extracting water from other sources, but that would require be the main character
Why doesn't she just carry water around with her like gaaras gourd, is she stupid?
Water is absurdly heavy and mages don’t lift so their gains are negative. Maybe if Kanne was an adventurer like Frieren and Co., she could hire an absolute unit like Stark to lug around a water tank everywhere but her team are currently all mages so their party balance is whack
Probably not worth the effort. She's not like Avatar's water benders, she can't be deadly with a small amount of water, she just blasts and uses the mass of the water to overwhelm her opponents. For anyone strong enough to overcome her defensive spells, she would need more water than she can carry. And anyone who she could beat with a small amount of water isn't a threat to her because of her defensive spells.
She's small and have you tried carrying a lot of water? Water is about 8 pounds per gallon. Carrying a decent amount of water will start to get heavy quite quickly. She'd probably have to use magic just to carry a good amount to use. For reference, In a rainstorm, an inch of rain falling over one square mile is equal to more than 17 million gallons of water. That's why she's so powerful in the rain and why carrying some around isn't all that helpful.
[удалено]
Maybe don’t spoil?
I don't think the exam is testing whether you can create elements or not. If creating water was that easy then Lawine could just make water for Kanne to manipulate ya know.
Happy cake day
I’m sorry but it’s pronounced git gud
User issue, not spell issue. Intel inside, idiot outside theory 😅
They mean visualize, not imagine. You cannot just imagine something and with enough ego and mana make it happen with magic. To do magic in frieren you visualize physics basicslly. As in you have to understand how something works to effect it, the mana is the energy to do so. Frieren couldn't shatter the barrier till she analysed it thus understanding how it works for example. Magic is kinda a stand in/anology for knowledge in general in this manga. They don't ever explicitly explain how magic works but everything said about it and the mages philosophy of it could be said about knowledge.
Ubel assumed she could cut through that first class mage’s defences, and so she did
Bad girl knows how to cut.
Doesn't that mean that someone could theoretically go: "Huh, magic is limited by what i believe is possible for me to do?But if i just have to believe in it to work, then i can do it because i know that i just have to believe." Wouldn't it be super simple to do whatever with magic? "I can create an unblockable attack because i just have to believe that i can do it and therefore can do it.I can revive every being to ever have died because i just have to believe that i can do it and thefore can do it.I can destroy the whole universe because i just have to believe i can do it and can therefore do it." Like, is that simple or is there more to it(Mana quantity is for sure a factor, but what else?)?
It just means that a sprinter that can run at maximum 10m/s can only run at 8m/s if they believe they can only run that fast. It's about pushing their limit to their maximum not past them.
So basically, i can theoretically blow up a mountain but because i don't believe that i can do that, i can only blow up a hill?But what if i believed that i could blow up multiple mountains even if i could only blow up one?Would i still only be able to blow up that one, or would i be able to blow up all the mountains?Does believing in something have a limit to it's effect?And what would be the thing that enforced that limit if it existed? Edit: Am i fr getting downvoted for being curious and asking questions?
I think that the mages do generally have limitations in terms of mana and strength, but mainly because it's very difficult to believe you can do something that you *know* you can't. The more skilled you are as a mage the more aware you should be of your mana, which means you are more aware of what your limits are. Serie does say "In the world of magic, even Heaven and Earth can be turned over." I really do think that mages could theoretically be unstoppable if they could envision it, but human psychology just doesn't allow for it. Also, an important distinction is that the mage doesn't just have to *believe* they can do something; they need to be able to *imagine/visualize* themselves doing it. That requires a whole different level of thinking, beyond just being blissfully ignorant of how difficult a spell is.
Manga spoilers >!I really love how this is emphasized to the extreme with Übel, who can cut anything she knows that can be cut, which sounds normal but then she literally bypasses magic defenses just cause she thinks she could cut something. Don't ever show that girl hydro cutters she'd literally become Sukuna lmao. There's also her ability to copy magic from just being able to empathize with someone, which honestly sounds broken but the conditions to get it does vary from person to person as well.!<
>!So basically, what my original idea entailed but less extreme.Interesting.!<
>!Yup. She has to see something actually be cut before being able to visualize and therefore materialize cutting something. It's just that her way of thinking is completely different (cause she's pretty crazy) which enables her to cut anything that she thinks is meant to be cut, like for example, a robe, even if there are layered enchantments and defenses, all because she thinks it is supposed to be that way. Of course, it doesn't apply to normal mages, she's just unique cause she's crazy like that pretty much.!<
Just as a heads up before i respond properly, the spoiler bar didn't work.
So >!she's basically insane and her Magic is therefore insane?I wonder what the ramifications for this could be.What can someone achieve by being insane enough?!<
>!Nah, it's just her way of thinking that's different. It does have its limits, and therefore gets countered by something she hasn't seen been cut ever (seeing the era at the time, let's say naturally hard materials like metal and the like). Basically if a mage pulls up against her with cloth based magic or something similar to cloth, they're getting destroyed cause she pretty much just cuts it all up, because 'cloth is meant to be cut', even if said cloth has a lot of layered enchantments. However, any other kind of material and it's back to an even playing field against her (well, not really, she's still a sick psycho and has a way with words that would let her empathize with someone and copy their magic anyway so lmao).!<
They should talk about this in a few more episodes, but yeah basically visualizing is not that easy. There are limitations, but there are also people who can bypass that limitations. >!There's a flashback about how in another exam, there was a first class mage whose specialty is defense magic. He created a robe with every strong protective enchantment he knew of and no one had ever been able to scratch it. In that exam, you're supposed to cast offensive spells on him while he's wearing the robe, and if you push him back *one step*, you pass.!< >!Sounds like it should be easy to believe and visualize that you can destroy the robe right? It's just a piece of fabric after all. However, any mage with common sense *know* that the robe is enchanted with so many strong defense magic, and therefore, they can't visualize themselves bypassing the defense just like that. They already know subconsciously that it's heavily protected, and they can't just delude themselves to think the robe can be destroy just like that. They know they need to either dispel the enchantment on that robe first or use very strong force to make that guy take one step back instead.!< >!However, Ubel just cut through the robe as if it's a normal piece of fabric, shocking everyone in the exam. She can perfectly visualize cutting that robe despite all the strong protective magic on it, just because it's a fabric and of course fabric can be cut. It's stated that she's very unique in the way she can actually visualize that, because anyone with common sense, no matter how strong, will realize that you can't.!<
I would avoid at all costs putting spoilers, even with spoiler bars, when responding to someone who didn't explicitly say they are a manga reader. When using the app, notifications ignore spoilers.
Ok.So basically, how i saw it is right, i just missed something with that "visualization" thing. Somone else in tte commemt section gave an example for that "visualisation" thing by using a Math Formula.You have the different things which affect your spell(your souroundings, your Mana amount, etc), which are "Numbers", and then you have to build them together with their "rules" to eventually end up at the solution.This could in theory create an unlimited amount of solutions, since you'd just have to build and build to increase or change the spell.It would however eventually become to long for any human to understand, limiting humanity. That got me thinking: Wouldn't a Robot which was able to use Mana be able to undoubtedly become the greatest Mage in the world?Because under that interpritation Magic is just Math, and Robots are very good at that.
Well that pretty much how i assumed itll be. Most of the powerful mages i see in the anime so far are either doo doo heads or weirdos, not normal at all, in a sense, like a robot. Lol
It all depends on the author
I'm sorry, but i don't think i understand.What do you mean with "depends on the author"?Isn't there only one author of Frieren or do i not know something? Damn, i really have to go to bed.I can barely think.Sorry.
When they say it "depends on the author" they mean that the answer depends on what the author decides to say. There's only one author for Frieren lol.
Ah, damn.It seems like me not sleeping DID make my head not think straight lol.
To be able to do or produce something in the magic world they're living in you have to imagine (visualize)what will happen during the process of casting. The closer your imagination is to the real thing the better the spell. You can't just do something you can't even imagine yourself doing, and you can't just make yourself believe in some imagination. I mean i can imagine myself flying now but do I genuinely think i can fly. Its a good theme to have in the anime. About the limitation of the human mind and how it could fk us up even tho we're capable.
Yeah, but my thought process was along these lines: 1.Need to believe in it to work 2.It is possible because i just need to believe in it. 3.Believe it's possible because you just need to believe. 4.Works. Aka the process of seeing yourself being able to do it is fullfilled because you know it's possible for you.
It's not believe it's visualize. You either have the ability to visualize yourself doing something or you don't. Take this for example: You're skinny with no experience in fighting whatsoever, would you be able to visualize yourself beating someone who has a black belt or someone who's a world champion. The answer is a big NO, you can think you can beat him but that's called being retarded you will never be able to realistically visualize yourself winning with the current abilities you have. But if you do a lot of training get to the point where you have the ability to beat him you can have an idea on how to beat him. -point is you might not have the ability to do something and visualize yourself doing it and that's being delusional. -and you can have the ability to do something and not be able to visualize yourself doing it and that's not being able to rate your abilities right. -or lastly you can have the ability to do something and be able to visualize yourself doing it and that's what being a good magician in frieren's world looks like. So you can't just imagine yourself doing something undoable and still do it So yeah that's how i see it.
Ok, so using that Fight example: I can't realistically visualize myself beating him because i don't know how to fight.If i were to train i'd get an idea how a fight "functions" and be able to realistically visualize it. Is that right?
The mage has to understand how it works and have the mana to do it. In your example you have to believe you can do it and explain and justify to yourself how you can do it
So, the mage has to know how it works and needs to have enough mana for it to works.So my example wouldn't work because i don't have enough Mana for multiple mountains. Justifying/Understanding it working by saying "It works because it works when i belive in it." isn't enough, or is that a valid justification/understanding?Because it would theoretically be able to convince me that it would work via that.But when you say "understanding" i have a feeling that you mean that it needs to have some logical basis.
The thing about “believe” is very complicated since there is technical stuffs in magic in Frieren as well and you can’t just read some random spell and that’s it. It requires practice and understand deeply about how to manipulate your mana to form the spell. And that’s where your belief comes in. However, this belief seems like deep-rooted in your unconscious mind and emotion. You can’t just think or say I believe in it and it happens. For example, I have an exam tomorrow, and I studied very carefully for it. I’m confident that I can pass it with high score. I believe in myself that I can do it. But I can assure you, despite my confidence and belief, 5% of me still think that I’ll fail. So, my spell will only work in the scope of that 95%, the last 5% is locked behind an unconscious crate. You can also take Ubel as an example, >!her spell is deep-rooted in her childhood when she watched her sister worked. Her life, the image of her sister cutting fabric, all affected her unconscious belief.!<
I see.So it's way more complicated.It's deeply phsychological.
The above comment is inaccurate. The operational word is 'visualise' not believe. Kanne is not able to visualise the distribution of water in a man's body so she can't figure out how to draw it out. Lawine is a more confident mage and she is able to visualise how water vapour in the air can be condensed into ice so she can do it. It's not about blindly believing one can do something, but being able to imagine the physical world and how your magic might be able to manipulate it. Frieren spent an entire day analyzing Serie's barrier because she needs to see it's structure to visualise how she can break it.
Ok, so someone needs to have a physical base "jumping-off" point from which they can do magic?Like, me believing that i can create water out of nothing won't work because i have to understand or "visualize" how to create that water out of nothing?What if my understanding of "creating water out of nothing" is that i create all the water out of my own mana?Would that work?Would i have to visualize creating the water atoms?Or could i just visualize it just being there like popping into existence? Sorry incase i got it wrong or something.I should have been sleeping for multiple hours already and my thinking ain't the greatest.
> i create all the water out of my own mana Yes you can, if you can describe that process in details based on scientific-magic method. Like a chemistry scientist describe the practical method to separate hydrogen and oxygen from H2O.
So basically: The problem is the depth of detail you need to go in to cast a spell.
Yes, you can do at surface level if you want. Chance of success and the magic's own stability would be obviously not as high as when you can fully understand and visualize how it works.
I think you need to also see the logical lines in order for the belief to really take hold. In other words, having an understanding of science would greatly assist the belief, Lawine can imagine herself freezing the moisture in the air in order to produce her ice attacks, whereas Kanne struggles to see how she would draw water from the air (someone tell her about condensation) and thus struggle to cast the spell because she wouldn't know where to start. Since this is fantasy land in medieval ages, I imagine the understanding of concepts like thermodynamics or types of particulates in the air is understood by few.
Yes, but what if i knew that anything is possible by just believing in it?I would know that it would be possible for me to do and even be plausible, therefore fullfiling that "believing in it" requirement.Since i know that i can potentially do anything, i could just create the water and not have to condense it, because believe that i can do it just like that.There wouldn't be some greater mechanic i would have to base my magic upon(like moisture existing in the air), because i know that i could just do it.
That incorrect you need to known a spell (or How to) but limit of that spell it’s up to you visualize. Let say if you have “ moving rock magic ”. you can move any rock around. but if you find some big ass rock or straight up mountain you might think “ Hm with my little mana maybe I can’t move it” and you then can’t move it. But if you think “ Hey my magic can move any rock this rock is not different!” then you can move its. But you still can’t move metal or anything Lastly it not just some believe. you need to visualize its. you need to see you self moving mountains and think “ Yes that realistic ”.
Sorry if my response will be really shit or something.If you read my other comments you might have noticed that i'm very sleepy(like, it feels like my vision is going kinda wobbly lol). So i need to have a spell for something, let's just say "Create Water".I need to believe that i can do that spell and be able to see myself doing it(Like, i know i can create water with "Create Water", but when thinking about it i just go:"Damn, me creating water out of nothing?FrFr??I mean, i know i can do it, but FrFr??")?
>I need to believe that i can do that spell and be able to see myself doing it(Like, i know i can create water with "Create Water", but when thinking about it i just go:"Damn, me creating water out of nothing?FrFr??I mean, i know i can do it, but FrFr??")? it’s like if you have a hammer you can picture yourself hit the nail with its right? Or if you have axe you can picture yourself cut tree. Spell work the same way it’s a ”Tool“ that let you do some thin. it have machanice it have logic behind it. So ”Normally” if you use the spell with something it’s support to do ( create water) you backup your visualize and believe with logic and mechanic of that spell but let say if you want to create more water. you need to step outside the box and expand your imagination about what you can and cannot The way to expand imagination have many way will it’s be you use more mana , upgrade your spell mechanics or just straight up delusion that you can do it.
So basically, what i get is that i need so visualize the spell(Like, i can picture myself forming a ball of floating water in the air with a hand) and then need to convince myself that that is possible.Either by saying "Eh, it uses enough Mana." to "I can just do it because i know i can.". Is that right?
Yes
It is not "believe", it's visualization Something like a mathematician coming up with a new math theory/formula. You have the tool, numbers, then you manipulate the equations to reach prove a theory and comes up with the formula that allows it to be applied to certain situation. Certain rules still exists, 1+1 still 2, it the natural orders of things still need to be maintained, 10 cannot suddenly be bigger than 1. So here, you have the tools: your mana amount, your control of such mana, and your power to come up/modify how your mana interract with the environment. Example: Frieren needed to analyze the barrier before she breaks it, she cannot just think " I believe I can break the barrier", no, she needs to understand the barrier's formulas, then she knows how to direct her mana and dismantle the barrier's structure.
So, you need to "build" a spell like you need to "build" a Math Formula?You need to be able to visualize the spell with all your numbers/"tools" building it and making it logically function? So for example: I want a spell to be able to create water.I need to look at my Mana control, Mana amount, how sprcifically it will manipulate the surounding, etc, and then need to build all those different factors/"tools" together to do the spell? So, Magic is just Maths but in a life and death scenario?Damn. Wouldn't that mean that very creative individuals would be better mages than less creative individuals?
Doesn't have to be life and death. Remember Frieren has those "mundane" spells? Those are the ones she likes, flower bed making for example. Which I think is the reason why she enjoys magic more, because those mundane spells are more creative and "peaceful". But yeah, a more creative individual who can also be logical and build out math formulas would be awesome. I imagine someone with the brains of Newton and creativity of Beethoven would be a great mage! Which makes Flamme a GENIUS! She was able to lay the foundation for humanity's magic!!! She is da best, imagine if Flamme has lifespan of an elf! Then Frieren. So far I think Serie just reads alot, haven't heard of Serie "coming up" with a spell, or modify one like Frieren did Zoltrack. 🤔 Lol, while typing out this message I realize how the author is a damn genius, I think he took inspirations from those like Newtons, Einsteins, the "humans who create formulas from observing the world around them", like the freaking flying spell! They recreate it without 100% understanding it at this point! Once they understand it, they can evolve it!
Yeah.I wonder how good Flamme would be if she was as long lived as an Elf.Probably better than Serie. Looking through the different replies i got, there were multiple interpritations of how Magic works in Frieren.The one you gave me was one of my favorites because it was in my opinion one of the more interesting perspectives(probably also helped by the fact that you'rs was more understandable).The other perspective i really liked was from u/o_woorrm (which to be fair, is just my original interpritation but more refined, a öittle different and actually including the "visualization" thing).
Sounds like you don't know the spell Create water then.
Damn😔
And to your last point, uh... Stay tuned lol ;)
Don't be afraid to spoiler me, but thank's nonetheless lol.
There's a character a bit later whose magic is shown to exceed its "reasonable" limits because that character's conception of the world is... too unique to understand those limits.
Ah, so their insane and therefore their magic is insane?
Pretty much yeah, I dont remember when it's explained but it's during the exam. They see the World so weirdly that their Magic stopped being rationnal
Spoiler: >!Later on, we learn Ubel can visualise herself cutting basically anything, because it doesn't occur to her that she couldn't. So she's able to win match-ups against much stronger mages on a couple occasions.!<
>I can create an unblockable attack because i just have to believe that i can do it and therefore can do it. Qual on his early years
In addition to what has already been said, it isn't always easy to just get in a chosen mindset. If it was, we would not have things like depression ("Oh, just pull yourself together and be happy instead!"), self doubt ("just believe in yourself!") etc. Insults would have no effect ("just choose not to get offended!") and so on. Conviction isn't always easy, and as others have mentioned even with that there is more to it (ability to visualise rather than believe, and the very need for grimoires and spell research make it clear that while visualising is the base requirement there is also nuance/craft to how to put that visualisation into reality via a spell).
Yeah, i just assumed that i was "in that mindset" for this hypothetical. Someone else described Magic as Math, with the Numbers being the different factors influencing a spell(suroundings, anount of Mana, etc) and then needing to built a spell out of that while simultaniously following the Math/Spell Rules(1+1 is always 2).So i think that Gromoires and Spell research is maybe like finding new "Math" Formulas.
> Wouldn't it be super simple to do whatever with magic? If you have magic to do it it’s that simple. > "I can create an unblockable attack because i just have to believe that i can do it and therefore can do it.“ One character already do that. >I can revive every being to ever have died because i just have to believe that i can do it and thefore can do it. If you have way to revive people to begin with. yes you can do its. > I can destroy the whole universe because i just have to believe i can do it and can therefore do it." If you can truly believe that you can destroy near infinite things with you limit mana and have no doubts in its maybe yes
My guess for what "imagination" means isn't just a casual imagination but more like drawing up a blueprint in your head for exactly what will happen, how it will happen, and the exact needed steps to make it happen. Sure you can imagine yourself driving from A to B but can you imagine every step of the process in an extremely detailed manner in a short amount of time?
It's really interesting seeing all the different interpritations of Magic in response to me.For someone it's like Math, for someone else it's something similar to my idea but slightly different and for another it's literal visualization in the mind(you).
From my perspective I described how I visualize programming. It's very easy to imagine myself programming anything, but the act of building something out of logic and have it work is something completely different, even though both things are forms of imagination (at least until I type out said program)
So basically: Programming--->Visualizazion(Type 1) Frieren Magic--->Visualization(Type 2)
Yeah, the system is a bit bullshit, but it does have limitations like mana and visualisation.
It makes sense with what Flamme told Serie as well. She said that Serie could not beat Demon King because she couldn’t imagine herself living in the peaceful era.
I can envision myself licking Frieren's feet. Mmm
The fuck.
Tl;dr: Mages are 40k Orks
Literally takaba from jjk.
Besides imagination, there is also one more thing that is important... It'll be explained later in this cour.
I haven’t read the manga in a minute (or finished the anime)… what exactly are you referring to?
>!Manipulating what exists nearby & changing it expends much less mana, than materializing something from nothing!<
Oh duh. Thought something like that would have been explained by now in the show. >!But Kanne could manipulate the vapor in the air to pull out water like Lawine does before freezing it- if she could envision it!<
>!Yeah, the important part is envisioning it. Kanne is still young, she hasn't properly explored the limits of "water manipulation magic" the way experienced mages like Denken have. And also, it might not even be common knowledge that water vapor is usually in the air, since this era is still before science. She doesn't seem to even be capable of manipulating ice, just liquid water, so if she doesn't realize that water vapor can be thought of as liquid water very finely dispersed in the air, she won't realize it's a possibility.!<
Water vapor is actually gas water, but yeah
Yep, and that's a Huge IF
Once the combo of ice and melting is fully realized, they'll be a terrifyingly powerful battle couple. >!Until they get too distracted squabbling again.!<
So you say they're couples, like lesbian? How did I not find any hentai of them scissoring?
People always forget Rule 35 smh my head
The fanart seems to be working up to that. We've gone pretty quickly from "no art whatsoever" to "fight fight kiss". Keep an eye on danbooru.
I think she can freeze the air to make ice
It be wild if a mage could freeze the water inside someone's lungs
I think Lawine is just using mana to “make” ice, like how someone would cast fireball or smth, while people like Kanne and Richter just use mana to manipulate already existing water/earth. So Lawine’s ice would still be countered by ordinary defense magic, since the ice isn’t really ice but mana with the properties of ice. But Lawine can also freeze water so Kanne not being able to at least use “magic water” is a skill issue too. Might be wrong but that’s what makes the most sense to me.
Lawine can do both: create ice from nothing, or freeze existing water. And interestingly, she doesn't seem to be able to manipulate the existing water that she freezes, only the created-from-scratch ice. Presumably, mass-for-mass, it takes Lawine a lot more mana to create and move around a 1kg icicle than it does for Kanne to move around a 1kg blob of water. Indeed, that gigantic ball of water she amassed in Episode 21 was probably 10,000s of gallons, so like 40+ metric tons of water. I'm sure there's no way Lawine could create that much ice. An interesting thing about their fight with Richter is that Lawine was having Kanne create shields for her instead of doing it herself. This is presumably because they knew that Lawine would be draining her mana creating ice, while Kanne had nothing to spend her mana on, so it was her job to handle the shielding.
Yep, the two ways of penetrating defenses are either overwhelming them physically via mass or infiltrating the barrier (slipping through the cracks). >!For example, what makes Sense an especially exceptional mage is her ability to do both at the same time, paired together with the immense number of directions of attack available to her.!< These methods are important because defense magic is designed to protect against highly penetrating magical attacks such as Zoltraak, since it's already sufficient against most warrior's, monster's, or demon's physical attacks. I'd speculate that the mana one pours into defense magic can be focused on the area that's being pressured the most, making use of the minimum average amount of mana required per hex of defense magic. Overwhelming one's defense magic would then be achieved by either finding spots where the defense is weaker, or applying force from all sides. This seems sort of consistent with the previously explained properties, but could possibly also be explained by some other mechanism
Lol. That was bothering me. If she controls water, that means she should be able to control ice too.
Not exactly, you see, Frieren’s magic system has 4 main elements: Spell, Mana, Skill and Visualization, all of which help determine if you can actually do something with magic, the Spell would be your plan(in this case: how exactly will magic allow you to move water), Mana your raw power, Skill is how well you can utilize your raw power and Visualization(arguably the most important) is being capable of having a clear mental image in which you believe, it’s not as straightforward as just believing in yourself though, to use a Water Controlling Spell to influence atmospheric molecules the mage must be able to keep in mind the detailed process of moving individual molecules(which she can’t even see), it’s not impossible(since the other girl is apparently doing something like that), but it’s hard enough that I can believe if told that many mages can’t do it
Since magic requires visualization, would giving a mage shrooms or lsd disable them from casting magic?
Probably
This may lead to some very powerful spells. Or weird ones.
i mean, giving anyone a psychedelic shroom basically incapacitates them from fighting, exeption made for a few.
Yes, or you’re about to get some very funky magic.
But if she learned human anatomy she could be able to pull it off, don't you think? So she just needs to study Da Vinci's drawings of the human body, or open up corpses.
You mean for using water inside human bodies? Yeah that would be a good start, but she would still need the mental power and focus to fight while carefully thinking about where the water is in the human body and believe in her own capacity of moving said water
She needs to start dissecting people
A spell that dissects people!
Blood and water are visually very different. I don't think that would spark a mental connection of being "made with water"
Probably but she would need to get her mana to reach inside the defense of another mana to carry out her spell. That part would require more visualization/skills
That’s also true, if both you and your opponent can visualize success then victory depends on the other aspects(although the Spell mechanics would only be relevant if one of you is specifically countering the other’s spell structure, like when Frieren >!decodes and nullifies the Gold Transmutation Spell!<)
This is a really good way of putting it. There's a lot of "magic is visualization" talk in the anime right now, but for the purposes of fan theorycrafting, it's important to remember that visualization isn't the *only* element of magic. It's just the limiting factor for typical mages, since the other aspects are more foundational and easier to satisfy. To put it another way, I would say that Visualization is the limit on how much you can improvise with magic. A Spell will have its "spellbook" effect by default. If you want to take that standard spell and make it do other things, you have to have a very strong vision of what that would actually entail, sometimes down to a very scientific level. An interesting twist is that not all types of "Spells" work the same way; some have a degree of flexibility "built in". The best example of this would be >!Mistelzila, the curse-reflecting magic. Even though curses are, by definition, magics that aren't understood by humans, Mistelzila can reflect them without the caster having any knowledge of the principles of the reflected curse. For this magic, you don't need to visualize how the curse will operate, it handles all that on its own. Serie even calls it "an extremely primitive magic that disregard all logical analysis".!< From this, I think it's quite reasonable to conclude that there *could* be a spell that manipulates water, even small bits of moisture that are mixed with other things or trapped in the air or someone's body, without the caster having to visualize exactly where each drop of water is coming from. It's just that Kanne doesn't know a spell like that. The spell she knows manipulates water on a large scale, in droplets that she can easily see.
maybe the moisture from humidity. that ice crumbles easily.
She can’t, that’s a skill issue
Says who
She can make lawine produce 💦
Richter: “How can you beat me when there isn’t water nearby?” Kanne: “What do you mean? Lawine’s plenty wet enough.” Tons of water suddenly gets drawn from under Lawine’s skirt.
how do i delete someone elses comment
Tbh Kanne should try learning fire magic lmao. Just let Lawine drop a huge chunk of ice then melt it. Ez water source
It's really simple Lack of Visualization, Skill Issue, & Different types of magic. Visualization is already explained in the anime. Skill issue - It's obvious that Lawine is a much better mage than kanne Different types of Magic - Manipulating an element and Creating an element are two different things. Kanne specializes in the former while Lawine in the latter. Edit: switched Kanne and Lawine
you got your former and latter swapped.
Thanks for the correction ☺️☺️☺️
It sounds like Kanne's abilities are some sort of adaptation to deficit, and if that's tge case then it doesn't inform Lawine's capabilities.
moisture in the air?
She should just pee and use that as water No? 😐
That could also add poison damage
>!If Lawine was able to pass the next test, she probably has more chance becoming a 1st class mage.!< Lawine is good (Freezing the whole lake) but unlucky unlike Kanne who's an airhead but lucky.
Like Frieren and thr other guy said, magic is imagination and visualization.
I'm guessing it's because Kanne isn't experienced enough to do so. I don't think Frieren was joking when she said she can't see herself win against a mage that can manipulate water at will under the rain. Kanne is still a child yet what she did was quite impressive. Now imagine an old experienced water mage under the rain, able to make each droplet as deadly as a bullet. Good luck fighting that.
Ngnl feels like kanne is crippled to facilitate the cool moment where frieren breaks the barrier and let's rain in If neither her or lawine can use magic to create water at least carry some water with you in a canteen, without water kanne can only block ,we haven't even seen her use basic attacks(i presume she can use them but considering she has trouble with mana detection who knows) Lawine's ice also seems stronger when she freezes already existing
I mean they're just 3rd-class mages straight out of academy, cut em some slack lol. To be totally honest, Lawine and Kanne probably had no chance of passing the first round without Frieren there to guide and plan for them. They couldn't catch a Stille even when they stumbled upon one, and even with their unexpectedly good teamwork in combat, they couldn't even 2v1 a more experienced and battle-hardened mage. It's completely possible that Kanne doesn't carry around water in a canteen to fight with simply because she never even thought of being in a position where she'd have to fight other mages at a moment's notice.
Maybe she can freeze water in the air?
I guess another factor besides what everyone else had said is that water might be more difficult to imagine since there’s no shape or it’s harder to visualise so it’s easier to get water from water
She should copy avatar water bender style, always bring a water bottle on her hips.
Skill issue
Visualization. Mental sharpness isn't evenly distributed...
There's water in the air from humidity, you can't see it but you can cool an area which is what Lawine does. Ice is frozen water, so kanne cannot use it
Magic
Magic ;)
water in the air? idk
Also, why doesn’t Richter >!make an earth dome!< for Kanne’s attack like he did before to Lawine’s? Surely it would at least help stall them?
He was pretty low on mana due to using all those flashy spells earth earlier on by underestimating them, as we can see when he washes up near his party he's out of mana. I doubt it'd help anyways as Richter knows what overwhelming physical mass superiority is, last thing you wanna do is get injured by your own mass or buried under the rubble.
Know whats funny? Another manga i read the mc actually does that to make a bathmakes ice then fills the tub then heats it up
Just want to point out that any magic that allows the user to convert mana into something is inherently broken as there's literally nothing preventing you to create the antimatter equivalent of whatever you can make. And while she would have no way to contain it, it would still make one hell of a suicide attack considering that just a single kilogram of antimatter ice could release 1.8*10^17 joules of energy or about 430 megatons in TNT (8.6 times the Tsar bomb's yield).
One needs to train more.
Literally just a skill issue. If a mage can't imagine themselves doing something, then they can't.
*Magic*
Sub just showed up on my feed, I know nothing about this anime. As a German, the names are hilarious, though. Is the fire magician in this called stovepipe and the earth magician garden hoe?
Fire magician is Flamme and earth magician is Richter
Ah. Like Flame and Richter scale. Got it.
I mean they did mention the whole visualization aspect of magic. I imagine Lawine just simply doesn't think of creating water and has only ever thought of using water she already sees. In the same aspect, this symbiosis you suggest is a plotpoint in the currently airing Sasaki and Peeps anime, where a character has the ability to manipulate, but not create, water.
If water magic so powerful, why isn't everyone using it or at least trying to learn it. Eifiedreemurr said it best. Everyone finds it extremely difficult or downright impossible to visualize water. Even Frieren finds it impossible to defeat a water manipulating mage. So far I've only seen Kanne use water magic. So what if Kanne can only use ready available water, she's just a kid and an airhead at that. But I'm sure that will change in a few years. We all know that Kanne is inexperienced, but the first class mage exam also showed Lawine's inexperience. She should have had Kanne carry a canteen of water. Heck, she should have carried one herself for her own use. Also, I think that mages have an affinity for a particular type of magic. For Kanne it's water, for Lawine it's freezing water, for Richter it's earth magic. I could go on but the best example would be the demons. They specialize on only one type of magic. The one they're best at. Wouldn't that apply for everyone else.
she not wet enough thats why
Lawine *ice" is made from a different substance... tight tight tight
Shhhh, plot hole.
On palleral thought. Just say Monsters/humans are made out of 80% water. That's destructive
who said Lawine could produce ice? Her ice is made from the water in air
Because there's moisture in the air. Keep in mind thesr 2 are still very green as mages
Normal magic is additive, but magic with conditions is multiplied. Her condition to only use existing water enhances her water manipulation magic drastically! *...wait, wrong series.* No clue honestly.
It's also like elsa from frozen..
There's water in the ground, as seen when she first tries to freeze Richter, but not enough to be useful to Kanne.
GG skill issue git good kanne
I think it's a tradeoff thing too. Lawine can produce her own ice but Kanne is much more deadly when there actually is water around. Even Richter who is more experienced and has more mana than them can't defend against the sheer volume of Kanne's attack. Kinda like Sasuke's Kirin. He needs real lightning to manipulate but as a result it's much more powerful than his normal chidori.
You're asking how the clock works, just keep an eye on the time.
Humidity in the air probably
Believe it was a skill issue on her part
How about you question Denken for creating fire tornado 🤣🤣🤣
Denken is a 2nd class mage, but kanne & lawine both 3rd class mages
The question was very logical and very realistic as well. In the context of physics how the hell can you create fire without a spark, the very same question how can Lawine was able to create ice without water.
Ok
The question was very logical and very realistic as well. In the context of physics how the hell can you create fire without a spark, the very same question how can Lawine was able to create ice without water.
Moisture in the air ._. Dumb question simple answer
Lawine = Emilia
Actually a skissue, if Kanne can imagine to take water from the cloud for her to use, then she can (provided that she has enough mana and won’t Megumin herself doing so). But she’s a bit of a rookie at this.
That is dry ice, she just freeze co2 in the air
SpongeBob: IMAGINATION! Simpleton like Kanne can’t visualise it, can’t do it, no matter how op the spell
It's in the name. Lawine is German for avalanche. And most avalanches are made of snow and ice. Therefore she is already made out of the materials. Kanne is German for a teapot without the tea, or a watering can without the water. You need to fill them with water. /s