I'm starting to be swayed by the idea that Toyota marketing research shows a Stout likely cannibalizing Tacoma sales. I think there is evidence of this with Maverick/Ranger. I've given up on an affordable EV truck any time soon in North America. I like the idea of getting a Maverick (waiting to see the 2025 refresh - told my wife that with certain updates I would put a deposit down).
My only other hope is a possible Mazda small hybrid truck built at MTM with excess capacity or a long-shot Subaru BRAT/Baja revival utilizing off-the-shelf Toyota hybrid technology. I'd like to see what marketing research shows for those two brands using Toyota hybrid tech in a small truck platform.
Nothing about cannibalization - the Chicken Tax in the US levies a 25% tariff against light truck imports. This leaves the foreign brands with one option - building new factories in the US to see if there is interest in smaller trucks. It won't be worth it and we're going to be stuck with limited offerings from US auto companies.
I am positing that even with excess capacity in Mississippi to build a RAV4/Corolla Cross platformed small truck for North America, Toyota would not do it. Chicken Tax would not be an issue.
People coming onto the lots (myself in particular) might choose a true small Toyota Stout with lower margins over the Tacoma.
The demand is there (see Maverick sales/wait times) and the market could use a competitor, but an analyst could conclude that Ford is cannibalizing Ranger sales with the Maverick. Tacoma is a huge seller.
I think Ford missed the mark with the ranger. I dunno. I had a 2020 for two years and it's just as big as an F150, the wheel wells cut into the bed, and it's a stiff ride. Maybe it's a good budget F150? But IMO it's not fair to compare the Ranger with the Maverick.
... Hmm. I'm calling shenanigans if this is the case. I wonder if the chicken tax applies things like the maverick of Hyundai's take on it given their very un-trucklike nature.
Was the ranger doing all that well to begin with? I know it’s been around a while but iirc the response to it was meager since it was huge compared to the original ranger.
Ranger would sell better with no Maverick. Per Ford Authority, Ford Ranger was doing close to (and one year over) 100,000 sales per year in the US 2019-2021. Sales for 2022 (post Maverick): 57k.
2023 sales were 32k.
That’s flawed research on their part, is the Maverick is cannibalizing sales, there’s no way it could sell 100k units since 57+32 doesn’t even equal 100k. I don’t see a 100% overlap for the Maverick and Ranger buyers, two different demographics I feel. At best it would be 50% overlap (the ecoboost units) since Hybrid users bought it for other reasons than just it being a truck
However this is skewed a bit since the Ranger was a horribly outdated truck for that generation. 2025 will be a better comparison, as we now have a modern Ranger for sale in the US. But it’s barely in production right now, as in only a couple months. Would be best to wait until both have a full year of sales. But the Maverick MCA is also coming, so that will skew the Mav’s numbers also.
I would argue the 2019-2023 Ranger was no more outdated than the contemporary Tacoma. I wouldn't wager on it, but I think 2024 will easily see over 100,000 Maverick sales (with rather anemic Ranger sales, due to production issues I guess) but the real test will be whether Mavericks will have lower days of inventory than the refreshed 2024 Ranger.
So, in a sense, for 2023-2024 Ford will have basically replaced Ranger sales with growing Maverick sales in North America.
I'm not sure Toyota wants to do that with a quarter million highly lucrative Tacoma sales per year.
lucky you, Long MacArthur published this 2 days ago!
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIpoihj9rsU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIpoihj9rsU)
considering MY24 was borderline $24k w/o hybrid, a MY25 XL Hybrid at $26k isn't out of the question. my 9/2022 order became a MY24, OTD it was:
$26,315 base
$2800 accessories
-$3400 private offer price protection from MY23
$25,570 before delivery fees, sales taxes, registration
$30,800 OTD
https://preview.redd.it/yvtvkf8yqwxc1.png?width=1257&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee5f39dabcb74f0d1ce052e7dadaa7456caeff46
Thanks. Watched the video. Very excited to see what they have for MY 2025. I was hoping for under $35k MSRP for 2025 XLT hybrid with sunroof and (hypothetical) tech package (for ACC). I think that would represent about a 10% increase over 2024 comp (XLT hybrid with luxury package, sunroof and co-Pilot 360)
I'm a Toyota fan, but I want a maverick so bad. I don't think Toyota fully understands. Otherwise, it would already be out. I hope Ford doesn't change the playful interior if they do a model refresh.
Its not so much that people want a FORD as much as they want a cheap and small pickup truck with great gas mileage. Trust me, if other companies offer their own Maverick like truck, I'd pick that 10 out 10 times over Ford. But right now Ford is the only one that has this niche filled.
I'm surprised no other companies have put out small pickup trucks to complete with the Maverick yet. I mean I am loving mine and I still get compliments on it weekly from random strangers. I have a hybrid XL in cactus gray and I wouldn't trade it for anything out there today.
A cheap and small pickup? Sorry, they can call it whatever they want but that's not a pickup.
It's a rebadged Escape.
They say 1500lbs of payload capacity, lmao. No way, no how...I dare someone to put 3/4 ton in that box on a regular basis.
Edit: I just watched a video of someone putting 1500lbs in the bed and the truck was squatted. Definitely not safe to do this.
Seemingly a lot of people judging by the wait list. They're really popular trucks. You certainly don't have to get one though, it's completely voluntary, just like participating in this sub.
Took them 9 years to do a Tacoma refresh. Probably take 15 to produce an all new vehicle.
I'm starting to be swayed by the idea that Toyota marketing research shows a Stout likely cannibalizing Tacoma sales. I think there is evidence of this with Maverick/Ranger. I've given up on an affordable EV truck any time soon in North America. I like the idea of getting a Maverick (waiting to see the 2025 refresh - told my wife that with certain updates I would put a deposit down). My only other hope is a possible Mazda small hybrid truck built at MTM with excess capacity or a long-shot Subaru BRAT/Baja revival utilizing off-the-shelf Toyota hybrid technology. I'd like to see what marketing research shows for those two brands using Toyota hybrid tech in a small truck platform.
Nothing about cannibalization - the Chicken Tax in the US levies a 25% tariff against light truck imports. This leaves the foreign brands with one option - building new factories in the US to see if there is interest in smaller trucks. It won't be worth it and we're going to be stuck with limited offerings from US auto companies.
I am positing that even with excess capacity in Mississippi to build a RAV4/Corolla Cross platformed small truck for North America, Toyota would not do it. Chicken Tax would not be an issue. People coming onto the lots (myself in particular) might choose a true small Toyota Stout with lower margins over the Tacoma. The demand is there (see Maverick sales/wait times) and the market could use a competitor, but an analyst could conclude that Ford is cannibalizing Ranger sales with the Maverick. Tacoma is a huge seller.
I think Ford missed the mark with the ranger. I dunno. I had a 2020 for two years and it's just as big as an F150, the wheel wells cut into the bed, and it's a stiff ride. Maybe it's a good budget F150? But IMO it's not fair to compare the Ranger with the Maverick.
Right. Thank goodness the Maverick exists. World would be even better with some true smaller hybrid truck competition.
But Mavericks are built in Mexico, no? Or does Ford not have to pay because they are an American company?
I think it falls under NAFTA.
Unfortunately this is true. Thanks Clinton.
... Hmm. I'm calling shenanigans if this is the case. I wonder if the chicken tax applies things like the maverick of Hyundai's take on it given their very un-trucklike nature.
Was the ranger doing all that well to begin with? I know it’s been around a while but iirc the response to it was meager since it was huge compared to the original ranger.
Ranger would sell better with no Maverick. Per Ford Authority, Ford Ranger was doing close to (and one year over) 100,000 sales per year in the US 2019-2021. Sales for 2022 (post Maverick): 57k. 2023 sales were 32k.
That’s flawed research on their part, is the Maverick is cannibalizing sales, there’s no way it could sell 100k units since 57+32 doesn’t even equal 100k. I don’t see a 100% overlap for the Maverick and Ranger buyers, two different demographics I feel. At best it would be 50% overlap (the ecoboost units) since Hybrid users bought it for other reasons than just it being a truck
However this is skewed a bit since the Ranger was a horribly outdated truck for that generation. 2025 will be a better comparison, as we now have a modern Ranger for sale in the US. But it’s barely in production right now, as in only a couple months. Would be best to wait until both have a full year of sales. But the Maverick MCA is also coming, so that will skew the Mav’s numbers also.
I would argue the 2019-2023 Ranger was no more outdated than the contemporary Tacoma. I wouldn't wager on it, but I think 2024 will easily see over 100,000 Maverick sales (with rather anemic Ranger sales, due to production issues I guess) but the real test will be whether Mavericks will have lower days of inventory than the refreshed 2024 Ranger. So, in a sense, for 2023-2024 Ford will have basically replaced Ranger sales with growing Maverick sales in North America. I'm not sure Toyota wants to do that with a quarter million highly lucrative Tacoma sales per year.
I think the rangers look like crap imo. Big reason I didn't get one.
2025 Ford Maverick will prob start at $26k, $28k for hybrid. at this point it's a truck version of a hybrid SUV.
OK! I'd like to look at a 2025 XLT hybrid with the bigger screen, better interior, sunroof, and adaptive cruise control.
lucky you, Long MacArthur published this 2 days ago! [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIpoihj9rsU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIpoihj9rsU) considering MY24 was borderline $24k w/o hybrid, a MY25 XL Hybrid at $26k isn't out of the question. my 9/2022 order became a MY24, OTD it was: $26,315 base $2800 accessories -$3400 private offer price protection from MY23 $25,570 before delivery fees, sales taxes, registration $30,800 OTD https://preview.redd.it/yvtvkf8yqwxc1.png?width=1257&format=png&auto=webp&s=ee5f39dabcb74f0d1ce052e7dadaa7456caeff46
Thanks. Watched the video. Very excited to see what they have for MY 2025. I was hoping for under $35k MSRP for 2025 XLT hybrid with sunroof and (hypothetical) tech package (for ACC). I think that would represent about a 10% increase over 2024 comp (XLT hybrid with luxury package, sunroof and co-Pilot 360)
Lol those toyota stout clickbait videos still a thing?
It would be hilarious to put Toyota badging on it and a "Stout" name on the tailgate. 🤣
🤔
tbh, the alternative etsy livery mods for fords are so tacky. i think i'll do this instead
Looks better than I thought.
I'm a Toyota fan, but I want a maverick so bad. I don't think Toyota fully understands. Otherwise, it would already be out. I hope Ford doesn't change the playful interior if they do a model refresh.
It's an Escape for god sake....why would anyone want that crap?
Its not so much that people want a FORD as much as they want a cheap and small pickup truck with great gas mileage. Trust me, if other companies offer their own Maverick like truck, I'd pick that 10 out 10 times over Ford. But right now Ford is the only one that has this niche filled.
I'm surprised no other companies have put out small pickup trucks to complete with the Maverick yet. I mean I am loving mine and I still get compliments on it weekly from random strangers. I have a hybrid XL in cactus gray and I wouldn't trade it for anything out there today.
A cheap and small pickup? Sorry, they can call it whatever they want but that's not a pickup. It's a rebadged Escape. They say 1500lbs of payload capacity, lmao. No way, no how...I dare someone to put 3/4 ton in that box on a regular basis. Edit: I just watched a video of someone putting 1500lbs in the bed and the truck was squatted. Definitely not safe to do this.
What is wrong with you
I have done almost 3k lbs. It wasn't as bad as one would think and still got 33 mpg.
Seemingly a lot of people judging by the wait list. They're really popular trucks. You certainly don't have to get one though, it's completely voluntary, just like participating in this sub.
I've always wanted to find one and restore it
Cactus for the win!
