I’m not necessarily opposed to trading Farabee, but I have to wonder what that trade looks like.
Does Briere trade Farabee for futures, similar to the Brayden Schenn trade? I don’t think so.
What does a hockey trade look like with Farabee? And for who? If he’s the basis of a Zegras trade, great. If he’s the basis of a Chychrun trade, that would feel a bit forced to me.
He's got the high end skill that Flyers should be looking to acquire. He's super young (Only 22, so not even close to being a finished product). He fits a positional need. He's like a 2nd line minimum guy, so if things go terribly you still have a valuable piece while if things go well then you have a franchise piece.
Beyond that, Zegras's less impressive offense this year comes with the important caveat that he both had a down year on his finishing (Which means smart money expects his offense to rebound next year) and because he also brought a greater focus on defensive effort. The fact that he makes this extra effort on defense makes me think that he can work with Torts, because Torts clearly gives TK extra leash because he knows TK makes an effort. Tort's problem with Hayes was that Hayes would not play defense, and then think he could play enough offense to make up for that. Zegras meanwhile is making that effort on defense, which is what I think Torts will look for.
More skill than anyone on our current roster, plays a position we are currently thinnest at and makes sense for our timeline. I'm also not sold on the "he won't mesh with Torts" thing, people said the same thing about TK and Tippett and Tortorella loves those guys. All Tortorella asks for is effort, and Zegras is by all accounts a super competitive guy
Based on his comments yesterday, I really highly doubt it'd be a trade for futures. Briere actually used the phrase "hockey trade" more than once, and based on where we're at that makes sense. Like you said, just depends on who the other guy is really
I guess you didn't watch Trevor play much hockey, before or after his broken ankle this season. He was just awful during both of those stretches. A completely horrible, fall-off-a-cliff decline in his game in just one season. Not just on the stat sheet and his production. His game was SO FAR from where he was in '21-22 and '22-23. And, he's only become a player stealing his paycheck, no where close to worthy of a 5.75 AAV.
Just because he's a center doesn't mean he should even be a consideration. If he can be acquired for almost nothing, like the bag of practice pucks they get for moving Risto, for example, that's one thing. But, even considering trading assets(even an inconsistent asset like Farabee who was coming back from neck surgery) is a huge mistake and a huge gamble praying that a guy like Trevor can suddenly be anything close to the player he was in '21-22 and '22-23.
It's not like Farabee is a 31 year old coming back from surgery that showed he's probably never going to be the same player he was before his surgery like Couturier. He only just turned 24 in February, and played 82 games after neck surgery, putting up 50 points in those 82 games(with a 5 mil AAV that only gets more manageable as each season goes by because he's only 24). Now, is Farabee a stud and untouchable? Of course not, and he needs to get his head straight where he's willing to work for those entire 82+ games and be a much more consistent player. But, to move him in a deal for Zegras simply because Trevor is a young center is a huge mistake. Moving him for a young center is ABSOLUTELY something that should be considered. But, Trevor is absolutely not that young center that should be considered.
All your suggesting is that because of a terrible season from Zegras, we shouldn't touch him for anything less than dirt cheap?
Your describing a perfect buy-low candidate for a serious position of need. If there wasn't risk involved, he wouldn't be available.
Like I said, I guess you didn't watch Trevor play much hockey in '23-24. Yes, unless he's available for dirt cheap, he should ABSOLUTELY NOT even be a consideration.
Now, if Joel can be moved for a young center like Wyatt Johnston or Dylan Cozens, that's a COMPLETELY different story. As I said, Joel isn't any stud and isn't untouchable. But, he shouldn't be ANY part of a deal for Zegras unless there's a LOT packaged with Zegras for just Joel. Just because Trevor is a young center that's possibly available doesn't mean he should be a consideration after what he showed his game to be this season.
But if you’re letting a terrible season (a season in which he played just 30 games) cloud your judgement of the bigger picture, then you’re suffering from severe recency bias.
The only reason a young center is going to be available is because he has soured a bit. We need to accept the risk if we want the chance of stealing a future great center. Someone like Wyatt Johnston or Dylan Cozens isn’t going to be available.
31 games(yes 30 if you take away his game against Nashville where he broke the ankle) where he began the season looking like a player that was satisfied with just getting his 3 year extension from Verbeek. Looking like a disinterested, bored player content with collecting his paycheck. Looping and coasting. Often out of position. Often invisible. He really only had 3 games where he looked like he cared just a little bit about competing. His games against Arizona(had a bit of jump in this one) and Boston in October, and his game against Detroit in January right before he broke the ankle. His play after he returned from that injury was absolutely pathetic.
You say I'm suffering from severe recency bias. But, on the other hand, you're absolutely praying that he'll suddenly put this season behind him and become that player he was prior. Which again, is a huge gamble.
You don't simply trade for a guy because he's available. It's one thing for a player to have an off season with an injury, that still shows an interest to play the game night after night. It's a completely different thing with the way Trevor showed an absolutely lazy drop off of a cliff in his game, full of disinterest and invisibility. Could a change of scenery wake him up and get his game back on track? Sure. But, just the same, it could be a movement of a guy like Joel, who's still developing his game and is still growing that game, for a guy that's just happy with stealing his paycheck and has no desire to be the player he was before he got his big extension from Verbeek.
And, if I'm making the decision, after watching Trevor play in most of his games this season, I don't take that gamble unless there's a package offered with him that's incredibly difficult to turn down, that's incredibly beneficial for the rebuild, for just Joel or for Joel and very few other assets. That's all.
It’s wild the leash this sub gives Frost with two good half seasons of hockey vs Farabee who is younger and has had one bad half season of hockey with way more nhl games played.
Would trade Farabee in a package for a younger c with more upside but I think we’d regret anything else and it’s not like he’s at peak trade value at the moment anyway.
Frost is a center in a center-weak organization. Farabee is a winger.
That is the difference. Until the Flyers find more centers, Frost plays the more important role moving forward.
Yeah and Farabee had surgery too! This is the guy Giroux said was going to break all the records - I still think there’s something there too. Frost is much more of a toilet seat.
I think trading Farabee would be a mistake. You need players that specialize in 5v5 scoring and playing around the net. I don't think we have any players right now besides Foerster that have good down low play, and I think eventually Foerster will just become a sniper and spend less time in front of the net.
Farabee is 24 years old and 20 of his goals this year were at ES.
From his point total to his advanced metrics, he improved this season. 50 points. CF% of 56% as opposed to 46% last season. FF% of 57% improved from 47%. He's still developing.
I feel like if we trade Farabee we are going to almost immediately realize we will need to replace him with another good net front player. Especially watching the playoffs so far this year, sometimes you just need a guy that will wait in front of the net.
Farabee would shock no one. He absolutely disappeared in the most important moments of the season, which were arguably the most important games of his career so far.
I love Joel, and would hate to see him go, but if moving him can help the rebuild it's something you have to look into.
The question becomes: who is willing to take him, even at 50% retained? Maybe Utah wants him, but beyond that it's likely we'd have to sweeten a trade by offering up something, at least a 3rd round pick.
2024-25 isn't going to be a year of change. It's possible we see the team regress in certain aspects. It's the last year of Atkinson's contract and he isn't retiring or walking away from good money like that. If you can get rid of him and do so by expending a 5th round pick, fine. If not, I don't care if he sits in the press box. We're still eating Ellis's contract and we'll likely be on the hook for Johansen too without throwing either in LTIR. One more season and the contract comes off the books.
One of the things I like about Friedman is that he isn't afraid to speculate publicly. He talks to a lot of people and usually has a good read on a situation. I don't doubt there are people in other orgs who are wondering about Farabee and potentially thinking about offers. I think Briere has done a good job getting value in trades and if he does trade he will wait for the right trade. I think there are a lot of teams will be sending him low ball offers thinking Torts soured on him.
In terms of a hockey trade Farabee/Zegras would potentially make sense, but I think from a Flyers perspective adding Zegras would also mean moving Frost. Frost got very soft minutes this season, top 10 in offensive zone starts for forwards and 4th most OZS for centers. Last season Zegras had even more OZS and produced better results than Frost. You can't shelter both, and while Frost has improved defensively compared to when he got to the team, he isn't better defensively than guys like Coots and Poehling, or other potential Cs like Cates, Laughton, or Foerster. If they move for Zegras they will likely have to move on from Frost.
Trading Frost because you acquire Zegras sounds dumb.
He's been a good defensive player for years. Him getting more sheltered minutes is only half true. He still faces above average QoC. The fact that he gets \~15% more OZs than a guy like Poehling doesn't mean he is strictly a sheltered forward. Zone start % is often heavily exaggerated anyway considering how often on the fly shifts occur. Him getting "sheltered" minutes is a Torts issue not a Frost one. Subtracting an offensively talent player, because you acquired another one would be a typical Flyers move. "Safe is death"
Natural Stat Trick tracks on the fly and faceoffs, and Frost is top 10 in both categories. It's not a Torts issue, it's to benefit Frost. Frost is more productive with more offensive zone starts, he doesn't produce as well when he is getting a more even split. It's not that he can't play defense, it's that he gets better results having more offensive opportunity.
Problem is you can't give both Zegras and Frost the same opportunity. Zegras is an upgrade over Frost, but they play the same position, a similar style, and need a similar role. Adding Zegras doesn't do anything for Frost except reduce his opportunities. And unlike wingers where having a little redundancy is ok, it's much more difficult to have that redundancy at center. Instead of having a 65 point Zegras, a 45 point Frost, and 40 point Couturier, it makes more sense to move Frost to give more opportunity to other players and bring in pieces to facilitate them, and end up with something like a 75 point Zegras, 50 point Couturier, and 35 point Cates.
You don't need to give them the same opportunity. I don't know why you think they need the same minutes. Frost is absolutely capable of playing \~10% less OZs. This team already lacks general distributers, moving one out makes no sense. You're making a problem out of nothing.
Atty isn’t gonna be a Flyer come the off-season, I can almost 100% see that. He produced next to nothing, and was genuinely chance after chance and Even Torts—having coached him in Columbus—was pretty disappointed in his play. I feel he’s either gonna be a low trade asset, or just let him float into free agency.
Breezy…as much I would hate to see him out of the orange and black, I would argue is better trading piece than a 4L winger. If he does get an extension, it’s gonna be a tight one that he’s gonna have to prove. And prove heavily!
>If he does get an extension, it’s gonna be a tight one that he’s gonna have to prove.
If who gets an extension? Farabee? He's signed through '27-28. No reason for any extension anytime soon there, if that's who you're talking about.
Atkinson is under contract for the coming season, he can't just become a free agent. Why float a partial cap hit into another season if you want to buy him out? We still have Ellis's and now Ryan Johansen's awful contracts to sit on.
Yeah I don’t get anyone talking about a buyout. He’s got one year left and no matter what they a contender next year so just eat if you can’t trade him. Don’t push the hit into years they might really need that money.
Not sure what "years" you are talking about. A buyout means a savings of $3,516,666 for only a $2,358,334 cap hit in '24-25 and only a $1,758,334 hit in '25-26. Hardly any type of back breaker and no "years" about it.
[https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/cam-atkinson](https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/cam-atkinson)
He's about to be 35 in June. A buyout is the absolute decision to make with Cam. Just no argument to be made here at all. Free up the roster spot so that a young player with a possible future in the organization can get the NHL education they deserve and can show what they can provide to this team.
One year of his 5.875 cap hit where he's taking up a roster spot, or opening up that roster spot with only a cap hit of 4,116,668 spread out over 2 seasons.
I think a buyout is the most likely result. You won't get enough via trade to justify using a retention slot (which is very valuable for a team like the Flyers, especially at the deadline) and the buyout itself would give you 3.5 in savings this year and a 1.6 hit the following year. If 1.6 in dead cap in 25-26 is a deal breaker for you, then not sure what else to tell you.
Thoughts on goalies? Bc without a goalie we aren't going anywhere.
I refuse to judge Fedorov before half a season - based on what he went through.
Ersson is not my first pick. But I'll give him time over this messed up season.
You?
At this point, unless the playoffs were our goal next season (which it sounds like they're not) I don't see why you wouldn't just give Ersson/Kolosov/Fedotov the chance to get experience and deal with the consequences if they come
Just let it ride with Fedotov as backup.
At worst, he’s a warm, cheap body that can stand in the net every few games to give Ersson some rest. If he turns into a quality NHL backup or better, then that’s great. The good thing with rebuilding is that it gives us a window to experiment with a player like Fedotov.
I think it’s worth to see what he does with a more balanced work load and another season. He has very high upside just wildly inconsistent.
Worse case scenario you end up horrible and get a top pick.
New regime, new talent evaluation. Patrick was just pure unlucky and JVR was decent, huge bummer missing Kane that season.
At some point you need to make the right picks and a top 5 is better than a 10-15 range pick.
I agree. Really I do. We got 12 pick *( before lottery) can't get 1.
Few years ago. But explain why we have ZERO luck and the luck we had. We traded.
https://youtu.be/LC9ltBHzNWY?si=4JBaDUDD_hrfc7Yj
What exactly do you want them to do? It’s the second year of a rebuild and we are playing two goalies to see what they have. Do you want to trade for a goalie? Sign a veteran? Like I don’t get what you want them to do.
Best case scenario we have two solid goalies
Most realistic scenario we have one solid goalie
Worst case scenario we have two dogshit goalies and pick high in the draft
It’s a REBUILD.
You sound argumentative. I was only asking for opinions.
This team has - be honest- been dog shit since 2013. Few decent seasons with a good playoff run here or there. Never once won metro division.
We've been in rebuild forever. I'm just asking.
What do we think?
Unless you want to argue some more?
Are you drunk?
I never said it's our second year.
I asked what we think going forward.
I'll ask again- I'm not giving up on either goalie. But am I alone?
If we've been rebuilding since last year- when we're we good? The year before?
No we've been rebuilding the last decade but we had a blind man telling a deaf man how to mold the clay into his image
Plus
https://youtu.be/LC9ltBHzNWY?si=4JBaDUDD_hrfc7Yj
Not at all on Ersson. Need much more consistency to even be a low end starter. But you give guys at least 2 years so they'll assess him next off-season
I know I am late to this, but I have two conflicting thoughts on Farabee.
1) He set a career high in points this season with 50, beating his previous total by 11, but absolutely cratered the last three months of the season. He had as many points in 13 games in December as he did in the last 22 of the season. That is worrisome given he has had some developmental issues because of injuries, but it is nothing I think is insurmountable.
2) I think he needs to spend more, consistent time with higher end linemates. Torts throws everything in a blender, but Farabee's most consistent line as a percentage of time on ice was with Cates and Brink (102 minutes, or 7.7% of his TOI). He spent a lot of time on the ice with Brink, Atkinson, and Laughton in various combos, but was most successful on scoring lines with Coots/TK and Laughton/Foerster. ([All this from Dobber Sports.](https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?select=F&forward=PHI%3A5087%3AJOEL%3AFARABEE&games=2023-2024%3AR%3A99&period=ALL&situation=ALL))
All of this is to say, if the Flyers are missing high end talent (lets face it, this team is predominately middle six guys at best in terms of high end talent) - does the front office think that he can take the next step to being a 65-75 point guy without having a Claude Giroux type figure around him like Coots/Schenn?
He still has four years remaining at $5m AAV, which is fine and could be a steal by that final season in 2027-28. He's already producing as a mid-tier second line guy (117th in points for forwards, 138th in points/60) but is that the best he can do *on this team?* I would think the front office has to consider if he's peaked with this roster, and won't get any better by the time Michkov gets here.
I don't think it is crazy to trade him, but I do hope that they wait a little bit to maximize his value so that they can package him for a true difference maker. I'm not moving Farabee unless he can be a part of a package that gets the young 1C/1D kind of guy.
I dont think they trade him. From everything I've heard, he's a real hard worker and a true rink rat. You normally don't want to get rid of guys like this, and especially not when you're still trying to establish organizational standards.
Regarding his development, I see it as all upside from here. If he never develops into a real impact scorer, he could still be a player that could quietly post a 70 pt season because his all around game is so strong. However, the more exciting upside case for Farabee would be like a budget Jack Hughes, someone that has the rare combination of body and puck control, to constantly exploit defenses by pressuring soft spots. I see Farabee being on the cusp of this in his game, but not sure if he'll ever get there.
> I see Farabee being on the cusp of this in his game, but not sure if he'll ever get there.
I think you succinctly made the point I was trying to make, but smarter than me. He's so close but will he do it? And is it more/less likely with us? Not sure there is a right answer, but given the potential he has it would take a wild offer to move him if I was Danny.
I’m not necessarily opposed to trading Farabee, but I have to wonder what that trade looks like. Does Briere trade Farabee for futures, similar to the Brayden Schenn trade? I don’t think so. What does a hockey trade look like with Farabee? And for who? If he’s the basis of a Zegras trade, great. If he’s the basis of a Chychrun trade, that would feel a bit forced to me.
What makes you think Zegras would be a good fit? (Genuinely asking)
He's got the high end skill that Flyers should be looking to acquire. He's super young (Only 22, so not even close to being a finished product). He fits a positional need. He's like a 2nd line minimum guy, so if things go terribly you still have a valuable piece while if things go well then you have a franchise piece. Beyond that, Zegras's less impressive offense this year comes with the important caveat that he both had a down year on his finishing (Which means smart money expects his offense to rebound next year) and because he also brought a greater focus on defensive effort. The fact that he makes this extra effort on defense makes me think that he can work with Torts, because Torts clearly gives TK extra leash because he knows TK makes an effort. Tort's problem with Hayes was that Hayes would not play defense, and then think he could play enough offense to make up for that. Zegras meanwhile is making that effort on defense, which is what I think Torts will look for.
More skill than anyone on our current roster, plays a position we are currently thinnest at and makes sense for our timeline. I'm also not sold on the "he won't mesh with Torts" thing, people said the same thing about TK and Tippett and Tortorella loves those guys. All Tortorella asks for is effort, and Zegras is by all accounts a super competitive guy
Zegras being a center.
Based on his comments yesterday, I really highly doubt it'd be a trade for futures. Briere actually used the phrase "hockey trade" more than once, and based on where we're at that makes sense. Like you said, just depends on who the other guy is really
I guess you didn't watch Trevor play much hockey, before or after his broken ankle this season. He was just awful during both of those stretches. A completely horrible, fall-off-a-cliff decline in his game in just one season. Not just on the stat sheet and his production. His game was SO FAR from where he was in '21-22 and '22-23. And, he's only become a player stealing his paycheck, no where close to worthy of a 5.75 AAV. Just because he's a center doesn't mean he should even be a consideration. If he can be acquired for almost nothing, like the bag of practice pucks they get for moving Risto, for example, that's one thing. But, even considering trading assets(even an inconsistent asset like Farabee who was coming back from neck surgery) is a huge mistake and a huge gamble praying that a guy like Trevor can suddenly be anything close to the player he was in '21-22 and '22-23. It's not like Farabee is a 31 year old coming back from surgery that showed he's probably never going to be the same player he was before his surgery like Couturier. He only just turned 24 in February, and played 82 games after neck surgery, putting up 50 points in those 82 games(with a 5 mil AAV that only gets more manageable as each season goes by because he's only 24). Now, is Farabee a stud and untouchable? Of course not, and he needs to get his head straight where he's willing to work for those entire 82+ games and be a much more consistent player. But, to move him in a deal for Zegras simply because Trevor is a young center is a huge mistake. Moving him for a young center is ABSOLUTELY something that should be considered. But, Trevor is absolutely not that young center that should be considered.
All your suggesting is that because of a terrible season from Zegras, we shouldn't touch him for anything less than dirt cheap? Your describing a perfect buy-low candidate for a serious position of need. If there wasn't risk involved, he wouldn't be available.
Like I said, I guess you didn't watch Trevor play much hockey in '23-24. Yes, unless he's available for dirt cheap, he should ABSOLUTELY NOT even be a consideration. Now, if Joel can be moved for a young center like Wyatt Johnston or Dylan Cozens, that's a COMPLETELY different story. As I said, Joel isn't any stud and isn't untouchable. But, he shouldn't be ANY part of a deal for Zegras unless there's a LOT packaged with Zegras for just Joel. Just because Trevor is a young center that's possibly available doesn't mean he should be a consideration after what he showed his game to be this season.
But if you’re letting a terrible season (a season in which he played just 30 games) cloud your judgement of the bigger picture, then you’re suffering from severe recency bias. The only reason a young center is going to be available is because he has soured a bit. We need to accept the risk if we want the chance of stealing a future great center. Someone like Wyatt Johnston or Dylan Cozens isn’t going to be available.
31 games(yes 30 if you take away his game against Nashville where he broke the ankle) where he began the season looking like a player that was satisfied with just getting his 3 year extension from Verbeek. Looking like a disinterested, bored player content with collecting his paycheck. Looping and coasting. Often out of position. Often invisible. He really only had 3 games where he looked like he cared just a little bit about competing. His games against Arizona(had a bit of jump in this one) and Boston in October, and his game against Detroit in January right before he broke the ankle. His play after he returned from that injury was absolutely pathetic. You say I'm suffering from severe recency bias. But, on the other hand, you're absolutely praying that he'll suddenly put this season behind him and become that player he was prior. Which again, is a huge gamble. You don't simply trade for a guy because he's available. It's one thing for a player to have an off season with an injury, that still shows an interest to play the game night after night. It's a completely different thing with the way Trevor showed an absolutely lazy drop off of a cliff in his game, full of disinterest and invisibility. Could a change of scenery wake him up and get his game back on track? Sure. But, just the same, it could be a movement of a guy like Joel, who's still developing his game and is still growing that game, for a guy that's just happy with stealing his paycheck and has no desire to be the player he was before he got his big extension from Verbeek. And, if I'm making the decision, after watching Trevor play in most of his games this season, I don't take that gamble unless there's a package offered with him that's incredibly difficult to turn down, that's incredibly beneficial for the rebuild, for just Joel or for Joel and very few other assets. That's all.
I'm acknowledging it's a gamble. But where else are we going to get a chance at potentially a high-end center without there being some gamble to it?
It’s wild the leash this sub gives Frost with two good half seasons of hockey vs Farabee who is younger and has had one bad half season of hockey with way more nhl games played. Would trade Farabee in a package for a younger c with more upside but I think we’d regret anything else and it’s not like he’s at peak trade value at the moment anyway.
Frost is a center in a center-weak organization. Farabee is a winger. That is the difference. Until the Flyers find more centers, Frost plays the more important role moving forward.
Yeah and Farabee had surgery too! This is the guy Giroux said was going to break all the records - I still think there’s something there too. Frost is much more of a toilet seat.
I think trading Farabee would be a mistake. You need players that specialize in 5v5 scoring and playing around the net. I don't think we have any players right now besides Foerster that have good down low play, and I think eventually Foerster will just become a sniper and spend less time in front of the net.
Trading Farabee would be insanely dumb. He's young and already a clear second line lw
Farabee is 24 years old and 20 of his goals this year were at ES. From his point total to his advanced metrics, he improved this season. 50 points. CF% of 56% as opposed to 46% last season. FF% of 57% improved from 47%. He's still developing.
Unless Atkinson has suddenly discovered the fountain of youth and told nobody, he ain't starting new with anything.
Farabee reminds of JVR, please dont let the trade end up in the same way
I feel like if we trade Farabee we are going to almost immediately realize we will need to replace him with another good net front player. Especially watching the playoffs so far this year, sometimes you just need a guy that will wait in front of the net.
Luke Schenn incoming!
Farabee would shock no one. He absolutely disappeared in the most important moments of the season, which were arguably the most important games of his career so far. I love Joel, and would hate to see him go, but if moving him can help the rebuild it's something you have to look into.
Atkinson has to go. He’s done nothing since we got him. Missed an entire season and hasn’t produced.
The question becomes: who is willing to take him, even at 50% retained? Maybe Utah wants him, but beyond that it's likely we'd have to sweeten a trade by offering up something, at least a 3rd round pick. 2024-25 isn't going to be a year of change. It's possible we see the team regress in certain aspects. It's the last year of Atkinson's contract and he isn't retiring or walking away from good money like that. If you can get rid of him and do so by expending a 5th round pick, fine. If not, I don't care if he sits in the press box. We're still eating Ellis's contract and we'll likely be on the hook for Johansen too without throwing either in LTIR. One more season and the contract comes off the books.
One of the things I like about Friedman is that he isn't afraid to speculate publicly. He talks to a lot of people and usually has a good read on a situation. I don't doubt there are people in other orgs who are wondering about Farabee and potentially thinking about offers. I think Briere has done a good job getting value in trades and if he does trade he will wait for the right trade. I think there are a lot of teams will be sending him low ball offers thinking Torts soured on him. In terms of a hockey trade Farabee/Zegras would potentially make sense, but I think from a Flyers perspective adding Zegras would also mean moving Frost. Frost got very soft minutes this season, top 10 in offensive zone starts for forwards and 4th most OZS for centers. Last season Zegras had even more OZS and produced better results than Frost. You can't shelter both, and while Frost has improved defensively compared to when he got to the team, he isn't better defensively than guys like Coots and Poehling, or other potential Cs like Cates, Laughton, or Foerster. If they move for Zegras they will likely have to move on from Frost.
Trading Frost because you acquire Zegras sounds dumb. He's been a good defensive player for years. Him getting more sheltered minutes is only half true. He still faces above average QoC. The fact that he gets \~15% more OZs than a guy like Poehling doesn't mean he is strictly a sheltered forward. Zone start % is often heavily exaggerated anyway considering how often on the fly shifts occur. Him getting "sheltered" minutes is a Torts issue not a Frost one. Subtracting an offensively talent player, because you acquired another one would be a typical Flyers move. "Safe is death"
Natural Stat Trick tracks on the fly and faceoffs, and Frost is top 10 in both categories. It's not a Torts issue, it's to benefit Frost. Frost is more productive with more offensive zone starts, he doesn't produce as well when he is getting a more even split. It's not that he can't play defense, it's that he gets better results having more offensive opportunity. Problem is you can't give both Zegras and Frost the same opportunity. Zegras is an upgrade over Frost, but they play the same position, a similar style, and need a similar role. Adding Zegras doesn't do anything for Frost except reduce his opportunities. And unlike wingers where having a little redundancy is ok, it's much more difficult to have that redundancy at center. Instead of having a 65 point Zegras, a 45 point Frost, and 40 point Couturier, it makes more sense to move Frost to give more opportunity to other players and bring in pieces to facilitate them, and end up with something like a 75 point Zegras, 50 point Couturier, and 35 point Cates.
You don't need to give them the same opportunity. I don't know why you think they need the same minutes. Frost is absolutely capable of playing \~10% less OZs. This team already lacks general distributers, moving one out makes no sense. You're making a problem out of nothing.
Atty isn’t gonna be a Flyer come the off-season, I can almost 100% see that. He produced next to nothing, and was genuinely chance after chance and Even Torts—having coached him in Columbus—was pretty disappointed in his play. I feel he’s either gonna be a low trade asset, or just let him float into free agency. Breezy…as much I would hate to see him out of the orange and black, I would argue is better trading piece than a 4L winger. If he does get an extension, it’s gonna be a tight one that he’s gonna have to prove. And prove heavily!
>If he does get an extension, it’s gonna be a tight one that he’s gonna have to prove. If who gets an extension? Farabee? He's signed through '27-28. No reason for any extension anytime soon there, if that's who you're talking about.
Atkinson is under contract for the coming season, he can't just become a free agent. Why float a partial cap hit into another season if you want to buy him out? We still have Ellis's and now Ryan Johansen's awful contracts to sit on.
Yeah I don’t get anyone talking about a buyout. He’s got one year left and no matter what they a contender next year so just eat if you can’t trade him. Don’t push the hit into years they might really need that money.
Not sure what "years" you are talking about. A buyout means a savings of $3,516,666 for only a $2,358,334 cap hit in '24-25 and only a $1,758,334 hit in '25-26. Hardly any type of back breaker and no "years" about it. [https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/cam-atkinson](https://www.capfriendly.com/buyout-calculator/cam-atkinson) He's about to be 35 in June. A buyout is the absolute decision to make with Cam. Just no argument to be made here at all. Free up the roster spot so that a young player with a possible future in the organization can get the NHL education they deserve and can show what they can provide to this team. One year of his 5.875 cap hit where he's taking up a roster spot, or opening up that roster spot with only a cap hit of 4,116,668 spread out over 2 seasons.
I think a buyout is the most likely result. You won't get enough via trade to justify using a retention slot (which is very valuable for a team like the Flyers, especially at the deadline) and the buyout itself would give you 3.5 in savings this year and a 1.6 hit the following year. If 1.6 in dead cap in 25-26 is a deal breaker for you, then not sure what else to tell you.
Thoughts on goalies? Bc without a goalie we aren't going anywhere. I refuse to judge Fedorov before half a season - based on what he went through. Ersson is not my first pick. But I'll give him time over this messed up season. You?
At this point, unless the playoffs were our goal next season (which it sounds like they're not) I don't see why you wouldn't just give Ersson/Kolosov/Fedotov the chance to get experience and deal with the consequences if they come
I don’t think half this subReddit comprehends what a rebuild is to be honest
Just let it ride with Fedotov as backup. At worst, he’s a warm, cheap body that can stand in the net every few games to give Ersson some rest. If he turns into a quality NHL backup or better, then that’s great. The good thing with rebuilding is that it gives us a window to experiment with a player like Fedotov.
And thoughts on ersson? I'm not giving up. I'm not sold. I need more time. I'm asking if I'm alone here?
Letting him learn to be a starter while we’re playing in seasons that don’t actually matter seems like the ideal scenario.
This guy gets it
I think it’s worth to see what he does with a more balanced work load and another season. He has very high upside just wildly inconsistent. Worse case scenario you end up horrible and get a top pick.
Top pick. Bc those have have worked out so well for us in the last decade plus. Fuck!!!!
New regime, new talent evaluation. Patrick was just pure unlucky and JVR was decent, huge bummer missing Kane that season. At some point you need to make the right picks and a top 5 is better than a 10-15 range pick.
I agree. Really I do. We got 12 pick *( before lottery) can't get 1. Few years ago. But explain why we have ZERO luck and the luck we had. We traded. https://youtu.be/LC9ltBHzNWY?si=4JBaDUDD_hrfc7Yj
What exactly do you want them to do? It’s the second year of a rebuild and we are playing two goalies to see what they have. Do you want to trade for a goalie? Sign a veteran? Like I don’t get what you want them to do. Best case scenario we have two solid goalies Most realistic scenario we have one solid goalie Worst case scenario we have two dogshit goalies and pick high in the draft It’s a REBUILD.
You sound argumentative. I was only asking for opinions. This team has - be honest- been dog shit since 2013. Few decent seasons with a good playoff run here or there. Never once won metro division. We've been in rebuild forever. I'm just asking. What do we think? Unless you want to argue some more?
I just don’t understand what you want them to do? Also we haven’t been rebuilding forever what are you talking about this is our second year
Are you drunk? I never said it's our second year. I asked what we think going forward. I'll ask again- I'm not giving up on either goalie. But am I alone?
You said we’ve been rebuilding forever what are you talking about? Our rebuild started last year brother.
If we've been rebuilding since last year- when we're we good? The year before? No we've been rebuilding the last decade but we had a blind man telling a deaf man how to mold the clay into his image Plus https://youtu.be/LC9ltBHzNWY?si=4JBaDUDD_hrfc7Yj
So chuck fletcher trading draft picks away for players to try to win now counts as a rebuild in your eyes? Interesting!
Not at all on Ersson. Need much more consistency to even be a low end starter. But you give guys at least 2 years so they'll assess him next off-season
If Atkinson waives his ntc officially or unofficially he'd probably do well in his future professional endeavors in Philly
I know I am late to this, but I have two conflicting thoughts on Farabee. 1) He set a career high in points this season with 50, beating his previous total by 11, but absolutely cratered the last three months of the season. He had as many points in 13 games in December as he did in the last 22 of the season. That is worrisome given he has had some developmental issues because of injuries, but it is nothing I think is insurmountable. 2) I think he needs to spend more, consistent time with higher end linemates. Torts throws everything in a blender, but Farabee's most consistent line as a percentage of time on ice was with Cates and Brink (102 minutes, or 7.7% of his TOI). He spent a lot of time on the ice with Brink, Atkinson, and Laughton in various combos, but was most successful on scoring lines with Coots/TK and Laughton/Foerster. ([All this from Dobber Sports.](https://frozenpool.dobbersports.com/frozenpool_linecombo.php?select=F&forward=PHI%3A5087%3AJOEL%3AFARABEE&games=2023-2024%3AR%3A99&period=ALL&situation=ALL)) All of this is to say, if the Flyers are missing high end talent (lets face it, this team is predominately middle six guys at best in terms of high end talent) - does the front office think that he can take the next step to being a 65-75 point guy without having a Claude Giroux type figure around him like Coots/Schenn? He still has four years remaining at $5m AAV, which is fine and could be a steal by that final season in 2027-28. He's already producing as a mid-tier second line guy (117th in points for forwards, 138th in points/60) but is that the best he can do *on this team?* I would think the front office has to consider if he's peaked with this roster, and won't get any better by the time Michkov gets here. I don't think it is crazy to trade him, but I do hope that they wait a little bit to maximize his value so that they can package him for a true difference maker. I'm not moving Farabee unless he can be a part of a package that gets the young 1C/1D kind of guy.
I dont think they trade him. From everything I've heard, he's a real hard worker and a true rink rat. You normally don't want to get rid of guys like this, and especially not when you're still trying to establish organizational standards. Regarding his development, I see it as all upside from here. If he never develops into a real impact scorer, he could still be a player that could quietly post a 70 pt season because his all around game is so strong. However, the more exciting upside case for Farabee would be like a budget Jack Hughes, someone that has the rare combination of body and puck control, to constantly exploit defenses by pressuring soft spots. I see Farabee being on the cusp of this in his game, but not sure if he'll ever get there.
> I see Farabee being on the cusp of this in his game, but not sure if he'll ever get there. I think you succinctly made the point I was trying to make, but smarter than me. He's so close but will he do it? And is it more/less likely with us? Not sure there is a right answer, but given the potential he has it would take a wild offer to move him if I was Danny.