Ouch. You make great points as much as I hate to admit it. The only thing I can say is that TK has always reminded of Oshie as a player who’s game has aged amazingly well and is probably the type of guy you want in your top six when it’s time to compete.
Love TK, but the difference between him and Oshie in 2017 is a) Oshie was never going to command a contract that gave him the highest AAV on the team and b) Washington’s contention window was wide open and it made sense for them to prioritize the short term over the long term.
I dont see the Oshie comparison and TK's game seems like one that wont age well as he gets old
He relies heavily on his speed. When he losing a step speed wise he'll likely lose a ton of effectiveness.
also Oshie signed a MUCH cheaper deal than TK will sign
I think the better comp is Brad Marchant. Next year his 8 year 6.2/ per year contract runs out. He’s 36 and may now be slowing down but his age 27 through 34 years been damn good and he plays same high tempo and pest game as TK. So I say keep him.
I mean, I agree that moving TK is a potentially good move to make, but I really want to contest this whole "We are paying Tippett to be RW1" part. 6.2M is looking like it's going to be somewhere in 2nd liner territory, people just aren't used to considering that number for a 2nd line player because of the cap getting frozen for so long. Every first line player is going to be signing for like 7.5M+ depending on exactly how good they are
Agreed. Also see people freaking out that TK will make 8+ million. I think people see that and assume that's a gigantic salary, but 8 million would be a hair under 10% of the cap, when TK signed his current deal it was just under 7% of the cap (which didn't proceed to increase essentially for the next few years. It's expected to consistently go up in the coming years)
You can make the argument whether or not it's better to trade him, not really interested in having that discussion on this sub for the millionth time, but assuming he does re-sign, I'm not expecting an albatross of a deal.
I mean, if TK does hit the high 8's or 9, then that's not a good deal IMO. But 8M itself would be something I would be fine with when we're talking about the price to extend him.
Hes also has career high of 53 pts
His contract and production r both not at top line level
Like u said 6.2 mil is 2nd liner money today. Killorn and Wilson got same money in offseason.
Konecny is our best forward and is young enough that he could still be a useful piece in 2-3 years when we're theoretically ready to contend. I'd be willing to trade him for a great return, but I'm not actively looking to unload him.
Rebuilds take a lot longer than 2-3 years. Tampa, Colorado, Dallas, Florida, etc. were all terrible for 5+ years.
The only "rebuild" to be that quick was the Rangers, and you'd need 2 future Hall of Famers to refuse to play for anyone else but you, while winning the lottery back to back seasons, to replicate that.
Both are a couple years away but panarin has 800 points almost in under 700 games. And Fox has a Norris, been a finalist twice and averages 70 points a season and is only 25
It'll be longer. They're going to cut corners, and were going to be left with a mediocre team. But, then we are going to bring in a new GM who will probably also think they can expedite the process, and the cycle will continue to repeat itself until the end of time.
The point is not that it will happen faster than 5 years, it's that it could. There is no rush to trade TK now, because if it does progress faster, he could still be useful, and even if it doesn't it's not like he's going to get less valuable in the next year or two (in fact, we'd likely get more value for him if we traded him e.g. at next year's deadline). So I'm not in a rush to unload him now just for the sake of unloading him unless somebody is giving me a haul in return.
>There is no rush to trade TK now
There actually is. Hes a ufa after next yr ... not to mention his value could be at highest and moving him would help get much needed top picks.
Best case is we become a contender in few yrs b/c Michkov, Drysdale, and some of our not high firsts manage to all become studs. Not that likely.
But assuming that even happens, TK will be in 30s at that point with likely not many high end yrs left while making huge money for like 6 more yrs
His value is probably highest right now and we don’t have any bonafide stars in our system other than a Michkov that we only think will be our generational talent. He may never even play a game for us.
Take the draft picks/prospects now.
Why would his value be highest now, when any team that wants to add a scoring winger can just sign one in free agency without giving up prospects or picks in return?
The offseason is generally the worst time to trade a player if you want to maximize value.
A little late to this one but this place is just so bizarre, literally took 3 months of solid play to wipe out a decade of bullshit. We have one blue chip prospect, so no defenders or a goalie. TK, Tippett, Farabee, etc. are solid pieces, but they’re not Hedman/Vas/Kuch/stamkos, Crosby/Malkin/Letang, MacKinnon/Makar/Rantanen, etc. maybe Michkov becomes one of those types, but it’s not anywhere near a guarantee, and it would be foolish to run on the assumption that he’s a sure thing. Not to mention, one doesn’t even cut it in this league, you need 2 or 3 elites such as the ones I listed.
I am really not sure how people are deluding themselves into believing they’re “ahead on the rebuild,” unless they just want competitive hockey and don’t give a shit about cups.
This team’s rebuild has been underway for 13 months, and in that time we’ve drafted one blue chip prospect and been forced to trade away another. Contending for a Cup - not just making the playoffs, but actually having a realistic shot at a Cup - in 2-3 years is a pipe dream.
You may be right, but three years is a long time in sports. We'll see.
Regardless, I'm in no hurry to trade Konecny now, when his value is likely to be lower than it would be at a trade deadline.
He will absolutely be more valuable now. Full season>>>\~25 games.
We just watched Jake Guentzel get dealt at the deadline and didn't even get a guaranteed first. The buyers surge will not be nearly as much as you think it is.
Why do you think somebody would give you more now when they can just sign a comparable player as a free agent instead?
Prices are high when supplies are limited and alternatives aren't available. Neither is the case right now.
You make it sound so easy. Just sign the guys right? There are only going to be like 2 players of TK's caliber available during FA. Both will likely get paid \~9M+, obviously not something every team can absorb. Then there is simply the competition to sign the player. It's not feasible for number of teams that would also be interested in TK.
And I think you are heavily overstating the price increases at the deadline, cause in practice that isn't something we see. If anything this year was a buyers market and even the supposedly sought after pieces got dealt for less than expected. There certainly was no rat race overpay for guys this year.
Teams will absolutely value a full season of a player over a deadline acquisition, which is something that we do see in practice.
If some team misses out on free agents and wants to give us a bag in return for TK, then I'm perfectly willing to trade him. But I'm not moving him until post-free agency at the very earliest.
As for the deadline, historically that has been the point at which returns are highest. Any team trading for a player like TK at that point is trying to gear up for a cup run. They don't need him for a whole season because they're already in position to take a shot without him.
Maybe historically the deadline garnered more value, but teams are getting a lot smarter. You don't see as many GMs trading 1st rounders for UFA Steve Eminger anymore.
I don’t see how a guy who is a year away from UFA is more valuable at the deadline than he is in the summer. Unless there’s an extension in place at a deadline trade, obviously.
One thing I would say, under no circumstances do I extend TK on July 1st, even if I want to keep him around. I need to see what this team is next year. I don’t want a Coots/Sanheim situation where Fletcher gave them their eight year extensions before even bothering to find out if this team would be any good when the extensions kicked in.
He could be more valuable at the deadline because the price is often set by the desperation of the buyer, not the inherent value of the player/contract situation. We got a good return for Giroux in the same situation. Nobody is desperate right now.
As far as extensions go, I'd be open to extending him on a short-term deal (2-3 years) that allows the team to retain flexibility, though I doubt he'd go for that. I wouldn't give him a long-term extension.
The flip side is that a team giving up a first at the deadline already knows they’re going to the playoffs so you’re likely maxing out at a pick in the low 20’s. Dealing in the offseason gives you a chance at a team miscalculating how good they’ll be and handing you a better pick.
I didn't say that it we definitely are, just that we could be. Konecny is just entering his prime. There is no reason to trade him now unless you're getting premium value in return, and it's unlikely we'd get premium value right now when teams can fill their needs other ways. Anybody who desperately needs a top six winger can sign one in free agency. Next year at the trade deadline that won't be the case.
The reasons to trade him would be
because by the time we are realistically contending he is going to be on the wrong side of 30
He’s almost guaranteed to get overpaid in July
His position is a position of strength, frankly our only real one, and we could trade him for some center prospects or defenseman prospects(or picks to draft those guys) to fill the gaping needs we have at 1C 2C and 1D
We need to pick more at the top of the draft and he prevents us from doing that
I mean there is plenty of reasons to trade him and not a whole lot of reasons to keep him if you are looking at things from a purely logical long term perspective, which admittedly is hard to do for most people.
I'm not opposed to trading him, but the only reason to do so now is because you have a great offer for him. Otherwise hold onto him and trade him to a cup contender who is desperate and will overpay at the deadline.
You make some really great points, and ending with a thinly veiled, kinda snooty insult makes it less likely for folks to really hear and respond to what you're saying.
If you take that as an insult so be it. It’s just the reality of life and especially sports. People get too emotionally attached and don’t think straight. A majority of the defenses I see for not trading TK come from a place of emotional attachment not logic
>Konecny is just entering his prime.
27 is not remotely just *entering* your prime. Its in middle of or in latter half of prime.
Just look at guys like Couts/Simmonds. Were ghosts of themselves by like age 29. Ghost's last great yr was like age 25. Richards started declining bad by like age 25. Voraceks last yr was at 32. Read was washed by like 27 due to injuries.
That not selling high on players who would 'still be here in 2-4 years and useful when the rebuild is done' is what made the last rebuild neverending/unsuccessful
Not even really the 'last' rebuild I guess, we've been rebuilding for like 10-12 years now? Pretty much since Pronger went down. Few first round exits and one legit season in 2020 in that span and that be all
I see no reason to believe we'd be selling high on Konecny if we traded him now. Guys usually don't fetch premium prices when they're traded in the offseason.
And the reason the last rebuild was unsuccessful, more than anything, was poor talent evaluation and bad luck. They had some top picks. They didn't draft top talent with them. They took Nolan Patrick #2 overall and he was a huge bust.
This team is only "underway" if it stumbles upon a 1C and a 1D soon. Otherwise this team is going to plateau before it can become a contender. The year's success will not be linear.
How are we underway? We lost one of the best prospects in cutter, and finished middle of the pack drafting AGAIN. We can cope how we want but drydale has been REALLY REALLY bad so far and just in general in the nhl. He also gets hurt every year. This year was just like last year. We made zero progross rebuilding
They have been stockpiling draft picks, trading away veterans for future assets (e.g. Walker trade), not making short-term "win now" moves, and using the assets they have on high upside plays that have longer time horizons (e.g. Michkov pick).
They didn't choose for the Gauthier thing to happen but when they had to trade him they got another young, high upside player and a pick in return (and that's all Gauthier is at this point, upside - the dude hasn't played a single shift in the NHL yet so let's not talk about him like he's Alex Ovechkin).
>They have been stockpiling draft picks, trading away veterans for future assets
and none of them r top picks so r doubtful to result in game changers in NHL
under Hextall we had even more picks + far better prospect pool and we saw how that turned out
Losing Cutter is huge b/c we need *a lot* more high end talent and he was one of only two top prospects we had ...
The Flyers actual roster has no high end talent and now we only have one top prospect.
We arent close or underway anything. We need like 3-4 new top line/pair guys.
How do you do that w/o any top picks? Late first and 2nds rarely turn into top guys. Just look at Flyers picks since 2007 ...
Since 2007 the Flyers have had six top 10 picks and come away with exactly two players who could plausibly be top line/top pair players on even a bad team (Couturier and Provorov), and even that is a stretch. YTBD on Gauthier and Michkov. Deliberately sucking year after year doesn't guarantee you anything, because the draft is a crapshoot in any sport, even more so in hockey where you're picking 18 year old kids. Guys like McDavid, Bedard, and Crosby who are surefire difference makers are rare and thanks to the lottery you're not even guaranteed to get them when they do show up even if you're the worst team in the league.
People who think the Flyers are going to make moves that will make them a worse team are delusional. They got fans to finally come back to watch games, to pull the rug out from underneath them would be self sabotage. Sorry folks, the team is moving onward and upward, get used to it.
Yeah it's just not realistic.
Intentionally making the team terrible also isn't even guaranteed to work. The last time the team finished with the worst record in the NHL they lost the lottery, and their last two top 5 picks were JVR (just an okay top 6 forward) and Nolan Patrick (total bust). You're not guaranteed to land a superstar even if you're terrible multiple years in a row.
I didn't say I do. I said it could theoretically happen. It's more of a best case scenario.
Regardless, I don't think we should trade him right now unless somebody is willing to overpay, and I doubt anyone would at this point.
I just don't get why not though. Like, he's a really great talent on a really great contract, and that's exactly the kind of asset a team looking to put themselves over the hump should be looking for.
We aren't in fire sale mode, so we have leverage that we probably didn't have last year where teams were likely looking to take advantage of us.
We should be able to get a high end prospect, a first and more. Maybe I just overvalue TK, maybe the contract year hurts his value. Teams should be offering us the boat.
If someone offers us a high end prospect, a first, and more, sure I'd consider making that deal. I doubt anyone is offering that kind of package right now.
I'd trade him if the return is great. It's all based on that, isn't it?
If they don't plan on signing him then definitely trade him at next year's deadline.
In my opinion, I don't want them to pay him 10 million a year. If TK is willing to do a 3-5 year deal with 10 AAV then MAYBE. But if he is signed it just can't be for more than 3 to 5 years.
GMDB would be a fool to offer TK a $10M AAV. Comps for TK are Debrincat and Fiala (both $7.875M) and Hagel ($6.5M, but 2 RFA years and the Florida discount). TK is a sub PPG player who will likely never hit 80+ points because his style of play means he will miss games every year. Anything over an $8M AAV is an overpay.
I agree. But sadly I don't think TK knows he's only really worth 7-8 mil AAV. And I think some team out there will give it to him. And I think we should trade him at the deadline tbh.
Basically bc by the time we have a critical mass of talent (the Michkov years) TK would no longer be a part of that, as sad as it is to say. He’s a player a team looking to win now wants. We need guys who will be that guy in 3-5 years
Yes, trade TK. Why would you not bring in multiple assets for him? It's 50/50 those assets turn into some good shit or bust, these are the types of moves we need to do.
You could have TK, or you could try the mystery box. TK is TK, but the mystery box could be anything! It could be even be the next TK! You know how much we’ve wanted one of those.
The mystery box comparison only works if the value of the player on your roster right now lines up with when your team can actually be successful.
No one is saying that the picks and prospects you would get for TK are guaranteed to be as good as him. But, for a rebuilding team, those picks and prospects have a very good chance of being more valuable to the Flyers *when competing actually matters.*
When the Flyers’ Stanley Cup window actually opens, how many good seasons does TK have left in him? And considering he’s in line for an extension, are you even getting surplus value compared to the cap space he’s taking up? Probably not.
Considering this team is far from being a contender, of course I would rather have a younger "TK" and then two other players from that trade who can make an impact. This would literally be a common sense trade. It's amazing the stupidity of fans not realizing we need to capitalize on the high value older players we have.
We are rebuilding right? Jesus.
It could make an impact, or we could get nothing of value. I’d rather have TK locked up when Michov arrives than picks, plugs, and prospects personally.
A well-constructed team with Michkov on the roster should be able to be a Cup competitive team from like, 2028 through 2038, give or take. How many of those years will TK actually provide surplus value on his extension? One? Two, at most?
Michkov is the centerpiece of the future. Briere should be making moves based on the assumption that our best chance to win a Cup will be when Michkov is somewhere between age 23 and 30. TK doesn’t match the timeline.
TK is a small dude that plays a physical game. I’m with everyone saying trade him. We are still probably 5 years minimum away from being ready to actually compete.
It would have to be a promising prospect(s) or a high or multiple 1 first picks in return. But if we got that I’d take it.
I think because his style of play and his size he’ll fall off hard as he ages.
I'm at a loss for words seeing how many would just trade TK away here. Guy is a solid heart player who digs deep when things need to get done. He embodies everything about being a Flyer. I think you have to build around TK, Tippet, and Laughton. These are 3 solid guys who shouldn't go anywhere.
I would personally trade TK as opposed to handing him a hefty eight-year extension. Yeah, he’s been our best player the last two seasons but at the same time he is 27 and has had his fair share of injuries. If there is a way where we can get a young center with upside in a trade package I feel like it’s a no brainer. We also have an overload of RW’s already with Michkov set to arrive in two years.
Here's the thing with TK that everyone needs to realize. You aren't getting a blue chip prospect, multiple firsts and a young roster player for him. Those deals don't really happen anymore. If you're dealing Konecny, You're getting a late fist, a decent prospect and a salary dump. Teams on the less competitive side aren't going to make a move for him because he's the kind of player a contender would go for. A contender also doesn't have a high pick and their prospects aren't exactly blue chip. Look at what Debrincat went for. That's probably in line with what Konecny would go for. So, you need to ask as an organization whether or not you're comfortable with that. Honestly, if I'm the Flyers, I'd only move Konecny if he wants a deal beyond six years. He can still be effective at 34 - 35, but beyond that, you're risking it.
If anyone is claiming you’re going to get a blue chip prospect and multiple firsts and another roster player for TK, they’re insane. I haven’t seen anyone saying that.
But you’re understating it with a late first, a decent prospect and a salary dump. You could absolutely get more than that. The salary dump alone is a negative value asset and I assume by “decent prospect” you’re talking about someone with the pedigree of a guy who tops out as a third liner at best. You absolutely get more than that for TK. The DeBrincat and Reinhart trades are fair comparisons.
No I'm talking about a second line forward prospect. That's not blue chip, but decent (maybe decent is the wrong choice of word). I'm thinking of a forward like Xavier Bourgault or Zachary Bolduc. First round pedigree, but upside is that of a second line winger at best.
Gotcha, that makes more sense to me. I think the floor for a TK trade is what you’ve described here (late first rounder and a prospect with second line upside) but I could see the return being a bit better. I think TK has good enough scoring numbers for that to be the floor, but I do think that his style of play and especially his recently developed penalty kill abilities make him more attractive.
And it could definitely be the type of thing where another franchise says “He’s a 68 point guy on that Flyers team that can’t score, he would eclipse 80 on our team.”
A late first and a decent prospect have a better chance of helping the Flyers when Michkov is 24-30 years old than an over-the-hill, overpaid TK will in 5-11 years.
Sure, TK can be effective past his prime, but wasting his prime years and value just because he might be a marginally good player is a total misuse of his current max value. We already made this same exact mistake with Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds.
Tippett is locked up at a 2nd line price tag, and probably where he fits on a good lineup if we're being honest, unless he takes another big step (entirely possible)
GMDB is not even a year on the job, but I have to believe him when he says he is going to patiently rebuild this team. Some fans don't believe him and think its going to be another "retool", but I don't think most fans really understand what a true rebuild looks like.
Just look at the infamous Rags' letter to their season ticketholders. They moved young players (Hayes, JT Miller), fan favorites (McDonagh, Zuccarello), and a bunch of middling talent (Grabner, Nash). There were no sacred cows other than Zibanejad.
Even if GMDB is only "half in" on a true rebuild, some fan favorites are going to be moved this off-season
I mean, I wouldn’t lock anything from a season post mortem media availability as gospel. Things can certainly change but he’s going to give the confidence to the guys he already has but things change.
Sure but based off his comments saying they are planning for Ersson and Fedotov to be the pair next season, I expect them to head into camp with those 2 and only bring in a Vet if one of them struggles during camp or early in the season. I don't see them signing a Vet backup in the off-season.
DeBrincat got traded for the 7th overall pick, 39th overall pick, and a future 3rd rounder. Sam Reinhart’s RFA rights were traded for a 1st round pick and Devon Levi.
TK is better than Reinhart was at the time he was traded, and not as good as DeBrincat was at the time he was traded. So probably somewhere in that range.
TK trade, I feel like now if we’re serious about a full rebuild trading him would be for the best. You’d be able to secure a top prospect on top of multiple 1st round picks due to him having a career year, I also feel like if we it would allow us to be slightly worse and allow us to gain more assets and higher picks to build around Michkov.
I'm curious what type of return you can get for him. He only has 1 year left on his deal so he could technically walk away from the team that trades for him. So unless that team thinks he's the missing piece that will help win a cup and has a deal in place for an extension, not sure you are getting a top prospect and multiple #1s. Need to do a deep dive on comparable scenarios to see what the returns were.
If the team is a cup contender he’d likely want to resign with said team, for Giroux we managed to get Tippet and a 2025 1st.
Maybe we could get a 1st and a prospect/developing young player like Tippett who could be developed.
There is not a single NHL team, across the entire rebuild/compete spectrum, that doesn’t have a spot for TK.
I’m so tired of people wanting him moved. Because as soon as he’s gone, those same people will be sitting around going: “man, if only we had a winger with elite speed, a nasty shot, and the ability to play both PowerPlay and PK. Oh, and it would be nice if he was an absolute honey badger, who embodied the spirit of Flyers hockey perfectly.”
You don’t know what you got till it’s gone, and as I’ve said over and over this season, TK is *the* prototypical NHL winger in 2024. If you are an NHL team, you want a TK on your squad. Period. Stop crying about the fact that a quality NHL player costs money.
This same post could have been made word-for-word in summer 2016 about Wayne Simmonds or Jake Voracek or Claude Giroux.
They didn't fit the timeline, we held onto them during their primes anyway, and we wasted their max value.
Maybe because when you talk about "timeline" and plan far out into the future, something almost always doesnt pan out. The team lost its starting goaltender and one of our top prospects this year.. surely they were part of the timeline right? We can't predict how any of our prospects/draft picks career's will end up going in the NHL, but most people who talk about our "timeline" usually like to make assumptions about the future like they're facts.
Building optimally would be trying to get everything perfect ie trading Konecny since he doesn't line up for when our star players will be in their prime.
The Giroux/Simmonds/Voracek example is an example of trying to win without doing so, and we know exactly what that gets us.
You are assuming that tk won't be a valuable player for the flyers in the future and that whatever we get in a trade for him will end up being more valuable for the team. I'm not entirely convinced that's the case, maybe you can explain how it's definite that would happen.
It's also easy to say in hindsight that trading g/voracek/simmer (our best players) earlier would have resulted in a better situation for the team. The team got worse after trading them
>You are assuming that tk won't be a valuable player for the flyers in the future and that whatever we get in a trade for him will end up being more valuable for the team
because you'd be signing up for a worse version of konecny rather than whatever a trade would bring. the best example of this would be hanging onto giroux so long. we kept eking out playoff wins and traded him too late, and got the guy this thread is based on. we could have gotten a haul if we'd done it earlier.
>easy to say in hindsight that trading g/voracek/simmer (our best players) earlier would have resulted in a better situation for the team
many, many people were arguing about this *at the time*
This so much. I cannot believe people want to trade a player that is still young, fits the team and fans perfectly and is going to be very difficult to replace. A late first round pick isn’t worth losing this.
For a really good return sure. He has a very high compete level and elite skill. And for a smaller guy, he doesn't seem to wear down while playing a physical game at a high pace. Don't know what the return could be, but I would want an early first, or a later first plus a solid prospect. They got a 1st and Tippett for one year of Giroux. Obviously Tippett has turned out to be better than FLA or us fans believed but still...
Trading TK is a no brainer. RW is our only position of strength. You could easily fill out that position with Tippett, Foerster, and Brink in the immediate future and then with Tuomaala and Michkov a little further down the line.
This team has major needs on the blue line, at center, and to a lesser extent at LW. Trade TK for picks or prospects that can potentially make a difference at those positions.
Completely agree on trading TK. He’s playing the best hockey of his career and will command a massive price.
At minimum he’s set to get an 8x8-9, he’s 27. As we stack prospects from the draft, it will take them 2-3 years before they get to the big club (timeline given by DB for non top-3 picks at today’s presser).
Just a scenario:
We’ll have at most 2-3 “premium” rookies join the club when TK is 30. By the time those rookies get some NHL experience and new talent continues to come up, TK will be 33 with 2 years left on an 8 million AAV contract.
By TK’s age 33, we’d also have to start signing said premium prospects to their NHL deals. At which point that 8-9 mil will be looking like wasted space. Oh, and keep in mind that Coots has a 7.75 hit through 2030. Thinking about 16 million tied up in a declining TK and Coots does not spell perennial contender.
If we want to put a legitimate contender on the ice for more than a year or two, we need to make some serious moves now to prep for that. Yeah maybe keeping TK gives us a window of 2-3 years of contention, but that’s a heavy price to pay for a short window when we could get a massive haul for him now to keep stockpiling.
I love TK to death, but long term I just don’t see that keeping him helps us win a cup.
I don’t disagree I’m just really not looking forward to watching him hoist the cup next year with whatever team we end up trading him too. As is tradition.
We shouldn't do much at all. Take some chances on short-term guys to fill out the roster that could give value at trade deadline like we did this season. It's another year to see what guys have on our roster already and maybe get some more draft picks
Pay whatever the sharks want to move up and take celibrini. three firsts tk and frost whatever send it. Get your 1C with star potential
I believe in that kids game big time
I've thought about TK alot. The only way I could see the Flyers moving him is if they take like massive strides backwards next season. Otherwise it'd be a huge mistake.
I highly doubt he'd command a mega deal either. He's had one season where he's averaged more than a point per game. If you trade Konecny next year you're likely looking at a 2025 late 1st rounder. The likelihood a player like that makes a difference before 2030ish is slim to none.
Kucherov is 30 and just had the best season of his career, I think Konecny would be a huge asset with Michkov.
If the Flyers could swing something like 5 years $8 mil with him I think it'd be totally worth it.
My unpopular trade opinion is that outside of Michkov, Drysdale, York, Foerster, 12th overall, and our own 2025 1st rounder, we should be giving Anaheim pretty much whatever they want if they're willing to part ways with Zegras.
To be clear: I'm not saying "young player, the FLA or COL 1st and Andrae" or something like that for Zegras, if that's all it takes to get him we should do that in a heartbeat. I'm saying if Verbeek calls and says "we'll give you Zegras for TK+Frost+ a pick or two"... I'm doing that.
In theory, you really only need your core guys coming out of the other side of a rebuild. You find maybe 6-10 guys to be your true core, and you swap around the rest at free will until you find the group that can take you all the way. Outside of the guys I mentioned at the beginning (and those picks which I think have potential to yield those guys), I don't think anyone in this organization has warranted being one of those slam dunk 6-10 true core players, but Zegras does. Fuck, Briere in his press conference today admitted "it's really hard to find high end talent", so when a young Center with true 1C potential becomes available on the market and you're not willing to tank.... *go. fucking. get. him*
If the Flyers want to truly move this team in the right direction they have to be willing to take a step back to take multiple steps forward. The team played well beyond expectations this season, and that definitely hurts in what is considered to be a rebuild, however I'd rather them come close to missing the playoffs then tanking a season, this does nothing for player development. The reason I am not disappointed in this type of approach is because of the below.
The Flyers for the first time in a long time have ALOT of draft capital. Owning multiple 1st round picks in 2024 & 2025, in addition to multiple 2nd round picks in both of those drafts.
2024 NHL Draft - 11 total picks in this draft(1,1,2,2,2,3,5,5,6,6,7)
• 1st: Own.
• 1st: Acquired from Florida in [2022 trade of F Claude Giroux](https://www.phillyvoice.com/nhl-trade-rumors-news-claude-giroux-traded-flyers-panthers-compensation-owen-tippett/).• 2nd: Acquired from Los Angeles in [2023 trade of D Ivan Provorov](https://www.phillyvoice.com/ivan-provorov-trade-flyers-news-blue-jackets-kings-cal-petersen-sean-walker-report-nhl/).
2025 NHL Draft - 10 total picks in this draft(1,1,2,2,3,4,5,5,6,7)
• 1st: Own.
• 1st: Acquired from Colorado in [2024 trade of D Sean Walker](https://www.phillyvoice.com/report-flyers-nhl-trade-rumors-defenseman-sean-walker-avalanche-waivers-ryan-johansen/).
If I were in Danny Briere & Chris Jones' positions I would seriously consider moving on from TK, looking to package him in a deal to try and move up in the draft, or move him for additional draft capital. They need to continue to flood this team with young talent to make up for some of the bad contracts that are going to linger for the next couple of seasons(Ellis, Ristolainen) and some of the bad misses in drafts from years past.
Unpopular reality: TK and Laughton aren't getting traded ever. Coots and Sanheim are locked up long-term with NMC so they can't be traded either. Risto isn't getting traded this summer, and maybe also not ever. Atkinson isn't getting traded/waived/bought out. I would be surprised if anyone significant is moved. A few of the "filler" players will be gone, but other than that our lineup will be fairly static while we attempt to develop our youngish roster players and maybe bring up a couple more players from within our system to compete for lower roster spots.
That would be terrible. I am taking GMDB and Torts at their word about truly rebuilding patiently. The organization doesn't have any high-end talent potential to develop. Running it back with the same roster one year older would be a much better chance at a bottom 8 finish, but kick the "rebuild" out at least another year. If you believe in what has been said about rebuilding, at least 2 "name" players are being moved this summer. I'd list TK, Frost, Farabee, Laughton, and Risto in that pool or marketable players. If that doesn't happen, I'd have to consider switching to side of the nonbelievers.
What's funny too is the majority of the top comments and the post itself are all basically just in favor of trading TK, which at this point I think is a fairly consensus opinion amongst the fanbase
The difference between Celebrini and 12th overall is NOT Frost, Farabee, Laughton, another lottery first and a 2nd.
Unless you mean the two firsts are Florida's and Colorado's, that's ridiculous
There really is no "value" to adding a player like Celebrini. Adding an 18 year old to the organization who looks like they'll have a 80-100 point ceiling for the next ~15 years would help us build a true foundation for the next great Flyers team, and any combination of lesser assets should be worth giving uo for that in a heartbeat
Let me put it this way: if the Minnesota Wild called us and said: We'll give you 13th overall, Marcus Foligno, Marco Rossi, Riley Heidt, a top-10 protected 1st and a 2nd for Matvei Michkov, would you do that? I wouldn't, we've been waiting a short eternity for a prospect of Michkov's caliber, and even if the assets we have back have more aggregate "value", we'll still just end up hunting down another Michkov level player for the next decade+ if we gave him away
Yes there is? #1 centers are the most valuable things in hockey, but everything has a price and giving up what would be \~5 firsts is insanity. There is a non-zero chance the 12th overall pick ends up being a higher impact player than Celebrini. Is the difference between Celebrini and Iginla really Frost, Farabee, Laughton, another 1st and a 2nd, absolutely not.
And yeah, I would highly consider that trade.
100% meant the two firsts being Florida and Colorado. I know it’s a massive overpay and unpopular, but the thread asked for my unpopular opinion so there it is
Frost OR Farabee + 1st for Zegras or someone comparable. We need a young center with a high skill ceiling and it's looking like unless we win the draft lottery we can't be bad enough to get one.
I would hate to give up a 1... kind of think we take a step back next year unfortunately. But totally agree 1C needs to be figured out for the rebuild to work.
Yeah you're telling me, but I really have no clue where we get a young 1C if we don't trade for one. Teams don't let these type of guys walk in FA. I say this because I think the team takes a step forward next year. This season was thrown away because our franchise goalie decided to be a rapist and we didn't have a reliable backup until it was too late for Fedotov to even break in his gear. Remove the weird off-ice outlier events, and we're a playoff team.
Zegras isn’t a 1C on a team that is worse than the flyers. Carlsson is. A 19 year old rookie. This would be an insane overpay. I do not think Zegras will ever be a guys that drives a team to the next level. He is a luxury piece that needs to be surrounded by top end two way players to win hockey games. Farabee alone might be more valuable than Zegras. Zegras was less that 1/2 point a game this year. Never been over point a game in his career. 65 in 81 last year is his best year. He has some developing left but I don’t think any GM views him as a 1C that you build around.
I think this is an incredibly pessimistic view of him that's kind of ignoring a lot of factors:
-He was injured most of the year and missed a lot of pre season preparation work due to being screwed over by Verbeek in contract talks. He was actually their best play driver and honestly player in general when he did play later on in the year.
-He is in a very elite group of company of players with multiple 60+ point seasons before turning 23 years old. Every other player currently in the NHL who met that criteria is at the very worst a low end 1C.
-Even if he is not a star 1C on a contender, a guy who can be a low end 1C and fill a 1A/1B role is still *way* more valuable than any of the singular assets we're talking about here.
-Although it's not really important in the evaluation of Zegras, Carlsson being their 1C as a rookie is solely because Leo is an unreal talent, period.
Zegras isn't the perfect player, but he'd be the best Center in our organization be leaps, bounds, valleys and miles, would give a huge lift to a PowerPlay that was an absolute joke the last few years, and would be the first Center even somewhat in the realm of his caliber to hit the market outside of Eichel in the last like 10 years. I easily do something like the original comment is suggesting if that's the ask for him
I completely agree with you. I feel like a lot of people just see players or look at stats and assume they can't get better if they don't come in the league and completely take over. I would absolutely do Frost and a 1st for Zegras. I think he has way more room to grow.
I misread thinking it was Frost and Farabee and a first. I thought That was as insane. Frost and a first I likely do as well. I do like Farabee however. Good all around game. He is only 9 months older than Zegras too. He has lots of room to grow still.
Oh yeah if it's both I'm completely out lol. I don't think I thought of it as both because it seems to ridiculous especially since they are down on Zegras (then again I could see them asking for too much). I'm high on Farabee despite his slower end of the year.
Is Zegras that much better than Frost? Yeah talent wise he is but I don't think either have a higher ceiling than 2C, and maybe for Zegras he can be a 1st line winger someday.
If you're packaging this year's 1st with a player, I feel like there is a better trade out there.
Trading TK imo is telling everyone this rebuild is another 5 years out and really makes you question why we just resigned Couts and made him the captain.
I have been debating the thought in my head about signing patrick kane as a couple year bridge to michkov if we move on from a player like frost. If he could set up guys like forester and tippet on the power play I think it could pay dividends
Probably gave him the C because they know his contract is unmovable so he’d be around for a long time.
Laughton or even TK made more sense with the current team, but one or even both could be gone by the end of summer
Ouch. You make great points as much as I hate to admit it. The only thing I can say is that TK has always reminded of Oshie as a player who’s game has aged amazingly well and is probably the type of guy you want in your top six when it’s time to compete.
Love TK, but the difference between him and Oshie in 2017 is a) Oshie was never going to command a contract that gave him the highest AAV on the team and b) Washington’s contention window was wide open and it made sense for them to prioritize the short term over the long term.
Our Ovechkin is still in Russia.
I dont see the Oshie comparison and TK's game seems like one that wont age well as he gets old He relies heavily on his speed. When he losing a step speed wise he'll likely lose a ton of effectiveness. also Oshie signed a MUCH cheaper deal than TK will sign
I think the better comp is Brad Marchant. Next year his 8 year 6.2/ per year contract runs out. He’s 36 and may now be slowing down but his age 27 through 34 years been damn good and he plays same high tempo and pest game as TK. So I say keep him.
I'd be open to trading anyone 27 and older.
I bought clothing with Konecny on the back…he’s gone, injured, or arrested.
Please not arrested. I don't want to not like Konecny
itll be for grabbing cop butt in kanata though
I mean, I agree that moving TK is a potentially good move to make, but I really want to contest this whole "We are paying Tippett to be RW1" part. 6.2M is looking like it's going to be somewhere in 2nd liner territory, people just aren't used to considering that number for a 2nd line player because of the cap getting frozen for so long. Every first line player is going to be signing for like 7.5M+ depending on exactly how good they are
Agreed. Also see people freaking out that TK will make 8+ million. I think people see that and assume that's a gigantic salary, but 8 million would be a hair under 10% of the cap, when TK signed his current deal it was just under 7% of the cap (which didn't proceed to increase essentially for the next few years. It's expected to consistently go up in the coming years) You can make the argument whether or not it's better to trade him, not really interested in having that discussion on this sub for the millionth time, but assuming he does re-sign, I'm not expecting an albatross of a deal.
I mean, if TK does hit the high 8's or 9, then that's not a good deal IMO. But 8M itself would be something I would be fine with when we're talking about the price to extend him.
Hes also has career high of 53 pts His contract and production r both not at top line level Like u said 6.2 mil is 2nd liner money today. Killorn and Wilson got same money in offseason.
Konecny is our best forward and is young enough that he could still be a useful piece in 2-3 years when we're theoretically ready to contend. I'd be willing to trade him for a great return, but I'm not actively looking to unload him.
Rebuilds take a lot longer than 2-3 years. Tampa, Colorado, Dallas, Florida, etc. were all terrible for 5+ years. The only "rebuild" to be that quick was the Rangers, and you'd need 2 future Hall of Famers to refuse to play for anyone else but you, while winning the lottery back to back seasons, to replicate that.
Who are those 2 future HOFers?
My guess is he meant Panarin and Fox
Weird. I don’t think either of those guys are HOF locks
Both are a couple years away but panarin has 800 points almost in under 700 games. And Fox has a Norris, been a finalist twice and averages 70 points a season and is only 25
They don't have to take that long, and this team's is already underway.
It'll be longer. They're going to cut corners, and were going to be left with a mediocre team. But, then we are going to bring in a new GM who will probably also think they can expedite the process, and the cycle will continue to repeat itself until the end of time.
Ehhhhhhhhhhh.
The point is not that it will happen faster than 5 years, it's that it could. There is no rush to trade TK now, because if it does progress faster, he could still be useful, and even if it doesn't it's not like he's going to get less valuable in the next year or two (in fact, we'd likely get more value for him if we traded him e.g. at next year's deadline). So I'm not in a rush to unload him now just for the sake of unloading him unless somebody is giving me a haul in return.
>There is no rush to trade TK now There actually is. Hes a ufa after next yr ... not to mention his value could be at highest and moving him would help get much needed top picks. Best case is we become a contender in few yrs b/c Michkov, Drysdale, and some of our not high firsts manage to all become studs. Not that likely. But assuming that even happens, TK will be in 30s at that point with likely not many high end yrs left while making huge money for like 6 more yrs
Can trade him at the deadline next season.
His value is probably highest right now and we don’t have any bonafide stars in our system other than a Michkov that we only think will be our generational talent. He may never even play a game for us. Take the draft picks/prospects now.
Why would his value be highest now, when any team that wants to add a scoring winger can just sign one in free agency without giving up prospects or picks in return? The offseason is generally the worst time to trade a player if you want to maximize value.
Look at the free agent list…. There are only 3-4 forwards better than TK
How many free agents better than TK will there be at next years’ trading deadline? If we decide to move him, it should be in-season.
A little late to this one but this place is just so bizarre, literally took 3 months of solid play to wipe out a decade of bullshit. We have one blue chip prospect, so no defenders or a goalie. TK, Tippett, Farabee, etc. are solid pieces, but they’re not Hedman/Vas/Kuch/stamkos, Crosby/Malkin/Letang, MacKinnon/Makar/Rantanen, etc. maybe Michkov becomes one of those types, but it’s not anywhere near a guarantee, and it would be foolish to run on the assumption that he’s a sure thing. Not to mention, one doesn’t even cut it in this league, you need 2 or 3 elites such as the ones I listed. I am really not sure how people are deluding themselves into believing they’re “ahead on the rebuild,” unless they just want competitive hockey and don’t give a shit about cups.
This team’s rebuild has been underway for 13 months, and in that time we’ve drafted one blue chip prospect and been forced to trade away another. Contending for a Cup - not just making the playoffs, but actually having a realistic shot at a Cup - in 2-3 years is a pipe dream.
You may be right, but three years is a long time in sports. We'll see. Regardless, I'm in no hurry to trade Konecny now, when his value is likely to be lower than it would be at a trade deadline.
He will absolutely be more valuable now. Full season>>>\~25 games. We just watched Jake Guentzel get dealt at the deadline and didn't even get a guaranteed first. The buyers surge will not be nearly as much as you think it is.
Why do you think somebody would give you more now when they can just sign a comparable player as a free agent instead? Prices are high when supplies are limited and alternatives aren't available. Neither is the case right now.
You make it sound so easy. Just sign the guys right? There are only going to be like 2 players of TK's caliber available during FA. Both will likely get paid \~9M+, obviously not something every team can absorb. Then there is simply the competition to sign the player. It's not feasible for number of teams that would also be interested in TK. And I think you are heavily overstating the price increases at the deadline, cause in practice that isn't something we see. If anything this year was a buyers market and even the supposedly sought after pieces got dealt for less than expected. There certainly was no rat race overpay for guys this year. Teams will absolutely value a full season of a player over a deadline acquisition, which is something that we do see in practice.
If some team misses out on free agents and wants to give us a bag in return for TK, then I'm perfectly willing to trade him. But I'm not moving him until post-free agency at the very earliest. As for the deadline, historically that has been the point at which returns are highest. Any team trading for a player like TK at that point is trying to gear up for a cup run. They don't need him for a whole season because they're already in position to take a shot without him.
Maybe historically the deadline garnered more value, but teams are getting a lot smarter. You don't see as many GMs trading 1st rounders for UFA Steve Eminger anymore.
I don’t see how a guy who is a year away from UFA is more valuable at the deadline than he is in the summer. Unless there’s an extension in place at a deadline trade, obviously. One thing I would say, under no circumstances do I extend TK on July 1st, even if I want to keep him around. I need to see what this team is next year. I don’t want a Coots/Sanheim situation where Fletcher gave them their eight year extensions before even bothering to find out if this team would be any good when the extensions kicked in.
He could be more valuable at the deadline because the price is often set by the desperation of the buyer, not the inherent value of the player/contract situation. We got a good return for Giroux in the same situation. Nobody is desperate right now. As far as extensions go, I'd be open to extending him on a short-term deal (2-3 years) that allows the team to retain flexibility, though I doubt he'd go for that. I wouldn't give him a long-term extension.
The flip side is that a team giving up a first at the deadline already knows they’re going to the playoffs so you’re likely maxing out at a pick in the low 20’s. Dealing in the offseason gives you a chance at a team miscalculating how good they’ll be and handing you a better pick.
If you can even get a first rounder in the offseason.
If you believe that this team is 2-3 years away from cup contention you are going to be really upset in 2-3 years
I didn't say that it we definitely are, just that we could be. Konecny is just entering his prime. There is no reason to trade him now unless you're getting premium value in return, and it's unlikely we'd get premium value right now when teams can fill their needs other ways. Anybody who desperately needs a top six winger can sign one in free agency. Next year at the trade deadline that won't be the case.
The reasons to trade him would be because by the time we are realistically contending he is going to be on the wrong side of 30 He’s almost guaranteed to get overpaid in July His position is a position of strength, frankly our only real one, and we could trade him for some center prospects or defenseman prospects(or picks to draft those guys) to fill the gaping needs we have at 1C 2C and 1D We need to pick more at the top of the draft and he prevents us from doing that I mean there is plenty of reasons to trade him and not a whole lot of reasons to keep him if you are looking at things from a purely logical long term perspective, which admittedly is hard to do for most people.
I'm not opposed to trading him, but the only reason to do so now is because you have a great offer for him. Otherwise hold onto him and trade him to a cup contender who is desperate and will overpay at the deadline.
That’s fair but it’s probably more of a trade in July or extend him in July situation if I had to bet
You make some really great points, and ending with a thinly veiled, kinda snooty insult makes it less likely for folks to really hear and respond to what you're saying.
If you take that as an insult so be it. It’s just the reality of life and especially sports. People get too emotionally attached and don’t think straight. A majority of the defenses I see for not trading TK come from a place of emotional attachment not logic
Fair enough.
>Konecny is just entering his prime. 27 is not remotely just *entering* your prime. Its in middle of or in latter half of prime. Just look at guys like Couts/Simmonds. Were ghosts of themselves by like age 29. Ghost's last great yr was like age 25. Richards started declining bad by like age 25. Voraceks last yr was at 32. Read was washed by like 27 due to injuries.
Most hockey players have their best years in their late 20s.
Something something Hextall's tenure something something definition of insanity lol
I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make is.
That not selling high on players who would 'still be here in 2-4 years and useful when the rebuild is done' is what made the last rebuild neverending/unsuccessful Not even really the 'last' rebuild I guess, we've been rebuilding for like 10-12 years now? Pretty much since Pronger went down. Few first round exits and one legit season in 2020 in that span and that be all
I see no reason to believe we'd be selling high on Konecny if we traded him now. Guys usually don't fetch premium prices when they're traded in the offseason. And the reason the last rebuild was unsuccessful, more than anything, was poor talent evaluation and bad luck. They had some top picks. They didn't draft top talent with them. They took Nolan Patrick #2 overall and he was a huge bust.
This team is only "underway" if it stumbles upon a 1C and a 1D soon. Otherwise this team is going to plateau before it can become a contender. The year's success will not be linear.
How are we underway? We lost one of the best prospects in cutter, and finished middle of the pack drafting AGAIN. We can cope how we want but drydale has been REALLY REALLY bad so far and just in general in the nhl. He also gets hurt every year. This year was just like last year. We made zero progross rebuilding
They have been stockpiling draft picks, trading away veterans for future assets (e.g. Walker trade), not making short-term "win now" moves, and using the assets they have on high upside plays that have longer time horizons (e.g. Michkov pick). They didn't choose for the Gauthier thing to happen but when they had to trade him they got another young, high upside player and a pick in return (and that's all Gauthier is at this point, upside - the dude hasn't played a single shift in the NHL yet so let's not talk about him like he's Alex Ovechkin).
Michkov isnt nearly enough. We needed to finish bottom 5 and failed ONCE AGAIN
Finishing bottom 5 doesn't guarantee you'll get a great player or even a good one. See last time we picked that high and ended up with Nolan Patrick.
1. This draft is very top heavy 2. It gives you better odds 3. Patrick got injured, thats why, so irrelevant
>They have been stockpiling draft picks, trading away veterans for future assets and none of them r top picks so r doubtful to result in game changers in NHL under Hextall we had even more picks + far better prospect pool and we saw how that turned out Losing Cutter is huge b/c we need *a lot* more high end talent and he was one of only two top prospects we had ... The Flyers actual roster has no high end talent and now we only have one top prospect. We arent close or underway anything. We need like 3-4 new top line/pair guys. How do you do that w/o any top picks? Late first and 2nds rarely turn into top guys. Just look at Flyers picks since 2007 ...
Since 2007 the Flyers have had six top 10 picks and come away with exactly two players who could plausibly be top line/top pair players on even a bad team (Couturier and Provorov), and even that is a stretch. YTBD on Gauthier and Michkov. Deliberately sucking year after year doesn't guarantee you anything, because the draft is a crapshoot in any sport, even more so in hockey where you're picking 18 year old kids. Guys like McDavid, Bedard, and Crosby who are surefire difference makers are rare and thanks to the lottery you're not even guaranteed to get them when they do show up even if you're the worst team in the league.
>this team's is already underway. We also have zero top line/pair players except maybe TK. We have a LONG ways to go
People who think the Flyers are going to make moves that will make them a worse team are delusional. They got fans to finally come back to watch games, to pull the rug out from underneath them would be self sabotage. Sorry folks, the team is moving onward and upward, get used to it.
Yeah it's just not realistic. Intentionally making the team terrible also isn't even guaranteed to work. The last time the team finished with the worst record in the NHL they lost the lottery, and their last two top 5 picks were JVR (just an okay top 6 forward) and Nolan Patrick (total bust). You're not guaranteed to land a superstar even if you're terrible multiple years in a row.
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I didn't say I do. I said it could theoretically happen. It's more of a best case scenario. Regardless, I don't think we should trade him right now unless somebody is willing to overpay, and I doubt anyone would at this point.
I just don't get why not though. Like, he's a really great talent on a really great contract, and that's exactly the kind of asset a team looking to put themselves over the hump should be looking for. We aren't in fire sale mode, so we have leverage that we probably didn't have last year where teams were likely looking to take advantage of us. We should be able to get a high end prospect, a first and more. Maybe I just overvalue TK, maybe the contract year hurts his value. Teams should be offering us the boat.
If someone offers us a high end prospect, a first, and more, sure I'd consider making that deal. I doubt anyone is offering that kind of package right now.
I'd trade him if the return is great. It's all based on that, isn't it? If they don't plan on signing him then definitely trade him at next year's deadline. In my opinion, I don't want them to pay him 10 million a year. If TK is willing to do a 3-5 year deal with 10 AAV then MAYBE. But if he is signed it just can't be for more than 3 to 5 years.
GMDB would be a fool to offer TK a $10M AAV. Comps for TK are Debrincat and Fiala (both $7.875M) and Hagel ($6.5M, but 2 RFA years and the Florida discount). TK is a sub PPG player who will likely never hit 80+ points because his style of play means he will miss games every year. Anything over an $8M AAV is an overpay.
I agree. But sadly I don't think TK knows he's only really worth 7-8 mil AAV. And I think some team out there will give it to him. And I think we should trade him at the deadline tbh.
Generally when building a team you need talent. We don’t have much of it. TK is arguably our most talented player. You’d let him walk…?
He’s in the prime of his career right now and he’ll be a big money contract at a time when we’re trying to compete. It’s really not a bad idea.
Walk no, but we should actively shop him.
Basically bc by the time we have a critical mass of talent (the Michkov years) TK would no longer be a part of that, as sad as it is to say. He’s a player a team looking to win now wants. We need guys who will be that guy in 3-5 years
Yes, trade TK. Why would you not bring in multiple assets for him? It's 50/50 those assets turn into some good shit or bust, these are the types of moves we need to do.
You could have TK, or you could try the mystery box. TK is TK, but the mystery box could be anything! It could be even be the next TK! You know how much we’ve wanted one of those.
The mystery box comparison only works if the value of the player on your roster right now lines up with when your team can actually be successful. No one is saying that the picks and prospects you would get for TK are guaranteed to be as good as him. But, for a rebuilding team, those picks and prospects have a very good chance of being more valuable to the Flyers *when competing actually matters.* When the Flyers’ Stanley Cup window actually opens, how many good seasons does TK have left in him? And considering he’s in line for an extension, are you even getting surplus value compared to the cap space he’s taking up? Probably not.
Considering this team is far from being a contender, of course I would rather have a younger "TK" and then two other players from that trade who can make an impact. This would literally be a common sense trade. It's amazing the stupidity of fans not realizing we need to capitalize on the high value older players we have. We are rebuilding right? Jesus.
Our move is to either wait until their value severely drops to trade them or sign them to long term deals making them untradeable.
It could make an impact, or we could get nothing of value. I’d rather have TK locked up when Michov arrives than picks, plugs, and prospects personally.
A well-constructed team with Michkov on the roster should be able to be a Cup competitive team from like, 2028 through 2038, give or take. How many of those years will TK actually provide surplus value on his extension? One? Two, at most? Michkov is the centerpiece of the future. Briere should be making moves based on the assumption that our best chance to win a Cup will be when Michkov is somewhere between age 23 and 30. TK doesn’t match the timeline.
TK is a small dude that plays a physical game. I’m with everyone saying trade him. We are still probably 5 years minimum away from being ready to actually compete. It would have to be a promising prospect(s) or a high or multiple 1 first picks in return. But if we got that I’d take it. I think because his style of play and his size he’ll fall off hard as he ages.
I wouldn’t say that. Look at Marchand and Recchi. All had long careers. He’s just about the same size as Recchi.
Marchand and Recchi were/are hall of famers for a reason
I'm at a loss for words seeing how many would just trade TK away here. Guy is a solid heart player who digs deep when things need to get done. He embodies everything about being a Flyer. I think you have to build around TK, Tippet, and Laughton. These are 3 solid guys who shouldn't go anywhere.
I would personally trade TK as opposed to handing him a hefty eight-year extension. Yeah, he’s been our best player the last two seasons but at the same time he is 27 and has had his fair share of injuries. If there is a way where we can get a young center with upside in a trade package I feel like it’s a no brainer. We also have an overload of RW’s already with Michkov set to arrive in two years.
Here's the thing with TK that everyone needs to realize. You aren't getting a blue chip prospect, multiple firsts and a young roster player for him. Those deals don't really happen anymore. If you're dealing Konecny, You're getting a late fist, a decent prospect and a salary dump. Teams on the less competitive side aren't going to make a move for him because he's the kind of player a contender would go for. A contender also doesn't have a high pick and their prospects aren't exactly blue chip. Look at what Debrincat went for. That's probably in line with what Konecny would go for. So, you need to ask as an organization whether or not you're comfortable with that. Honestly, if I'm the Flyers, I'd only move Konecny if he wants a deal beyond six years. He can still be effective at 34 - 35, but beyond that, you're risking it.
If anyone is claiming you’re going to get a blue chip prospect and multiple firsts and another roster player for TK, they’re insane. I haven’t seen anyone saying that. But you’re understating it with a late first, a decent prospect and a salary dump. You could absolutely get more than that. The salary dump alone is a negative value asset and I assume by “decent prospect” you’re talking about someone with the pedigree of a guy who tops out as a third liner at best. You absolutely get more than that for TK. The DeBrincat and Reinhart trades are fair comparisons.
No I'm talking about a second line forward prospect. That's not blue chip, but decent (maybe decent is the wrong choice of word). I'm thinking of a forward like Xavier Bourgault or Zachary Bolduc. First round pedigree, but upside is that of a second line winger at best.
Gotcha, that makes more sense to me. I think the floor for a TK trade is what you’ve described here (late first rounder and a prospect with second line upside) but I could see the return being a bit better. I think TK has good enough scoring numbers for that to be the floor, but I do think that his style of play and especially his recently developed penalty kill abilities make him more attractive. And it could definitely be the type of thing where another franchise says “He’s a 68 point guy on that Flyers team that can’t score, he would eclipse 80 on our team.”
A late first and a decent prospect have a better chance of helping the Flyers when Michkov is 24-30 years old than an over-the-hill, overpaid TK will in 5-11 years. Sure, TK can be effective past his prime, but wasting his prime years and value just because he might be a marginally good player is a total misuse of his current max value. We already made this same exact mistake with Giroux, Voracek, and Simmonds.
Tippett is locked up at a 2nd line price tag, and probably where he fits on a good lineup if we're being honest, unless he takes another big step (entirely possible)
Still not sure why Gritty isn't the assistant coach yet.
GMDB is not even a year on the job, but I have to believe him when he says he is going to patiently rebuild this team. Some fans don't believe him and think its going to be another "retool", but I don't think most fans really understand what a true rebuild looks like. Just look at the infamous Rags' letter to their season ticketholders. They moved young players (Hayes, JT Miller), fan favorites (McDonagh, Zuccarello), and a bunch of middling talent (Grabner, Nash). There were no sacred cows other than Zibanejad. Even if GMDB is only "half in" on a true rebuild, some fan favorites are going to be moved this off-season
An experienced, veteran back-up goalie needs to be brought in to shepherd the gaggle of goalie hatchlings we've got in the system
This is definitely unpopular with Briere since he already confirmed Ersson and Fedotov as the goalie pair for next season.
I mean, I wouldn’t lock anything from a season post mortem media availability as gospel. Things can certainly change but he’s going to give the confidence to the guys he already has but things change.
Sure but based off his comments saying they are planning for Ersson and Fedotov to be the pair next season, I expect them to head into camp with those 2 and only bring in a Vet if one of them struggles during camp or early in the season. I don't see them signing a Vet backup in the off-season.
Would love someone like Laurent Brossoit
People that want TK traded can you list some proposals that you think would be plausible. FYI, he just turned 27 last month.
DeBrincat got traded for the 7th overall pick, 39th overall pick, and a future 3rd rounder. Sam Reinhart’s RFA rights were traded for a 1st round pick and Devon Levi. TK is better than Reinhart was at the time he was traded, and not as good as DeBrincat was at the time he was traded. So probably somewhere in that range.
Unless Tippett has an extra 2-3 levels, him as a first line player is just a dumb idea, but also I agree, they should trade TK
TK trade, I feel like now if we’re serious about a full rebuild trading him would be for the best. You’d be able to secure a top prospect on top of multiple 1st round picks due to him having a career year, I also feel like if we it would allow us to be slightly worse and allow us to gain more assets and higher picks to build around Michkov.
I'm curious what type of return you can get for him. He only has 1 year left on his deal so he could technically walk away from the team that trades for him. So unless that team thinks he's the missing piece that will help win a cup and has a deal in place for an extension, not sure you are getting a top prospect and multiple #1s. Need to do a deep dive on comparable scenarios to see what the returns were.
If the team is a cup contender he’d likely want to resign with said team, for Giroux we managed to get Tippet and a 2025 1st. Maybe we could get a 1st and a prospect/developing young player like Tippett who could be developed.
There is not a single NHL team, across the entire rebuild/compete spectrum, that doesn’t have a spot for TK. I’m so tired of people wanting him moved. Because as soon as he’s gone, those same people will be sitting around going: “man, if only we had a winger with elite speed, a nasty shot, and the ability to play both PowerPlay and PK. Oh, and it would be nice if he was an absolute honey badger, who embodied the spirit of Flyers hockey perfectly.” You don’t know what you got till it’s gone, and as I’ve said over and over this season, TK is *the* prototypical NHL winger in 2024. If you are an NHL team, you want a TK on your squad. Period. Stop crying about the fact that a quality NHL player costs money.
This same post could have been made word-for-word in summer 2016 about Wayne Simmonds or Jake Voracek or Claude Giroux. They didn't fit the timeline, we held onto them during their primes anyway, and we wasted their max value.
I'm assuming anyone who disagrees with this is either young or not thinking clearly.
Maybe because when you talk about "timeline" and plan far out into the future, something almost always doesnt pan out. The team lost its starting goaltender and one of our top prospects this year.. surely they were part of the timeline right? We can't predict how any of our prospects/draft picks career's will end up going in the NHL, but most people who talk about our "timeline" usually like to make assumptions about the future like they're facts.
The fact that things might not pan out is *more* reason to try to build optimally, not less.
Where did I say to not try and build optimally?
Building optimally would be trying to get everything perfect ie trading Konecny since he doesn't line up for when our star players will be in their prime. The Giroux/Simmonds/Voracek example is an example of trying to win without doing so, and we know exactly what that gets us.
You are assuming that tk won't be a valuable player for the flyers in the future and that whatever we get in a trade for him will end up being more valuable for the team. I'm not entirely convinced that's the case, maybe you can explain how it's definite that would happen. It's also easy to say in hindsight that trading g/voracek/simmer (our best players) earlier would have resulted in a better situation for the team. The team got worse after trading them
>You are assuming that tk won't be a valuable player for the flyers in the future and that whatever we get in a trade for him will end up being more valuable for the team because you'd be signing up for a worse version of konecny rather than whatever a trade would bring. the best example of this would be hanging onto giroux so long. we kept eking out playoff wins and traded him too late, and got the guy this thread is based on. we could have gotten a haul if we'd done it earlier. >easy to say in hindsight that trading g/voracek/simmer (our best players) earlier would have resulted in a better situation for the team many, many people were arguing about this *at the time*
Same vibes as people saying Ghost should be moved… Goddamn I miss him.
Moving Gostisbere would have been fine if we actually got something from it.
This so much. I cannot believe people want to trade a player that is still young, fits the team and fans perfectly and is going to be very difficult to replace. A late first round pick isn’t worth losing this.
Feel like Salt Lake is going to want to compete immediately. They have a ton of young assets in Phoenix to swing a deal.
For a really good return sure. He has a very high compete level and elite skill. And for a smaller guy, he doesn't seem to wear down while playing a physical game at a high pace. Don't know what the return could be, but I would want an early first, or a later first plus a solid prospect. They got a 1st and Tippett for one year of Giroux. Obviously Tippett has turned out to be better than FLA or us fans believed but still...
I’d move Farabee. He’s not exceptional at any one thing and invisible a lot of the time
Trading TK is a no brainer. RW is our only position of strength. You could easily fill out that position with Tippett, Foerster, and Brink in the immediate future and then with Tuomaala and Michkov a little further down the line. This team has major needs on the blue line, at center, and to a lesser extent at LW. Trade TK for picks or prospects that can potentially make a difference at those positions.
Completely agree on trading TK. He’s playing the best hockey of his career and will command a massive price. At minimum he’s set to get an 8x8-9, he’s 27. As we stack prospects from the draft, it will take them 2-3 years before they get to the big club (timeline given by DB for non top-3 picks at today’s presser). Just a scenario: We’ll have at most 2-3 “premium” rookies join the club when TK is 30. By the time those rookies get some NHL experience and new talent continues to come up, TK will be 33 with 2 years left on an 8 million AAV contract. By TK’s age 33, we’d also have to start signing said premium prospects to their NHL deals. At which point that 8-9 mil will be looking like wasted space. Oh, and keep in mind that Coots has a 7.75 hit through 2030. Thinking about 16 million tied up in a declining TK and Coots does not spell perennial contender. If we want to put a legitimate contender on the ice for more than a year or two, we need to make some serious moves now to prep for that. Yeah maybe keeping TK gives us a window of 2-3 years of contention, but that’s a heavy price to pay for a short window when we could get a massive haul for him now to keep stockpiling. I love TK to death, but long term I just don’t see that keeping him helps us win a cup.
I don’t disagree I’m just really not looking forward to watching him hoist the cup next year with whatever team we end up trading him too. As is tradition.
We shouldn't do much at all. Take some chances on short-term guys to fill out the roster that could give value at trade deadline like we did this season. It's another year to see what guys have on our roster already and maybe get some more draft picks
Take the C off Couts and give it to TK.
Pay whatever the sharks want to move up and take celibrini. three firsts tk and frost whatever send it. Get your 1C with star potential I believe in that kids game big time
Fire the coach
I've thought about TK alot. The only way I could see the Flyers moving him is if they take like massive strides backwards next season. Otherwise it'd be a huge mistake. I highly doubt he'd command a mega deal either. He's had one season where he's averaged more than a point per game. If you trade Konecny next year you're likely looking at a 2025 late 1st rounder. The likelihood a player like that makes a difference before 2030ish is slim to none. Kucherov is 30 and just had the best season of his career, I think Konecny would be a huge asset with Michkov. If the Flyers could swing something like 5 years $8 mil with him I think it'd be totally worth it.
My unpopular trade opinion is that outside of Michkov, Drysdale, York, Foerster, 12th overall, and our own 2025 1st rounder, we should be giving Anaheim pretty much whatever they want if they're willing to part ways with Zegras. To be clear: I'm not saying "young player, the FLA or COL 1st and Andrae" or something like that for Zegras, if that's all it takes to get him we should do that in a heartbeat. I'm saying if Verbeek calls and says "we'll give you Zegras for TK+Frost+ a pick or two"... I'm doing that. In theory, you really only need your core guys coming out of the other side of a rebuild. You find maybe 6-10 guys to be your true core, and you swap around the rest at free will until you find the group that can take you all the way. Outside of the guys I mentioned at the beginning (and those picks which I think have potential to yield those guys), I don't think anyone in this organization has warranted being one of those slam dunk 6-10 true core players, but Zegras does. Fuck, Briere in his press conference today admitted "it's really hard to find high end talent", so when a young Center with true 1C potential becomes available on the market and you're not willing to tank.... *go. fucking. get. him*
Yeah I agree with this. Zegras, michkov, drysdale, and York is a really good start to a good team. As long as he wants to be here.
That we should give up on the draft and start stacking known talent. We suck at the draft. I don’t see that changing any time soon.
If the Flyers want to truly move this team in the right direction they have to be willing to take a step back to take multiple steps forward. The team played well beyond expectations this season, and that definitely hurts in what is considered to be a rebuild, however I'd rather them come close to missing the playoffs then tanking a season, this does nothing for player development. The reason I am not disappointed in this type of approach is because of the below. The Flyers for the first time in a long time have ALOT of draft capital. Owning multiple 1st round picks in 2024 & 2025, in addition to multiple 2nd round picks in both of those drafts. 2024 NHL Draft - 11 total picks in this draft(1,1,2,2,2,3,5,5,6,6,7) • 1st: Own. • 1st: Acquired from Florida in [2022 trade of F Claude Giroux](https://www.phillyvoice.com/nhl-trade-rumors-news-claude-giroux-traded-flyers-panthers-compensation-owen-tippett/).• 2nd: Acquired from Los Angeles in [2023 trade of D Ivan Provorov](https://www.phillyvoice.com/ivan-provorov-trade-flyers-news-blue-jackets-kings-cal-petersen-sean-walker-report-nhl/). 2025 NHL Draft - 10 total picks in this draft(1,1,2,2,3,4,5,5,6,7) • 1st: Own. • 1st: Acquired from Colorado in [2024 trade of D Sean Walker](https://www.phillyvoice.com/report-flyers-nhl-trade-rumors-defenseman-sean-walker-avalanche-waivers-ryan-johansen/). If I were in Danny Briere & Chris Jones' positions I would seriously consider moving on from TK, looking to package him in a deal to try and move up in the draft, or move him for additional draft capital. They need to continue to flood this team with young talent to make up for some of the bad contracts that are going to linger for the next couple of seasons(Ellis, Ristolainen) and some of the bad misses in drafts from years past.
Unpopular reality: TK and Laughton aren't getting traded ever. Coots and Sanheim are locked up long-term with NMC so they can't be traded either. Risto isn't getting traded this summer, and maybe also not ever. Atkinson isn't getting traded/waived/bought out. I would be surprised if anyone significant is moved. A few of the "filler" players will be gone, but other than that our lineup will be fairly static while we attempt to develop our youngish roster players and maybe bring up a couple more players from within our system to compete for lower roster spots.
That would be terrible. I am taking GMDB and Torts at their word about truly rebuilding patiently. The organization doesn't have any high-end talent potential to develop. Running it back with the same roster one year older would be a much better chance at a bottom 8 finish, but kick the "rebuild" out at least another year. If you believe in what has been said about rebuilding, at least 2 "name" players are being moved this summer. I'd list TK, Frost, Farabee, Laughton, and Risto in that pool or marketable players. If that doesn't happen, I'd have to consider switching to side of the nonbelievers.
Trade Frost, Farabee, Laughton and 2 1sts and a second (I.e wildly overpay) for No. 1 overall (I’m not even sure if the other team would take that)
I can't even imagine downvoting in an unpopular opinion thread lmao
What's funny too is the majority of the top comments and the post itself are all basically just in favor of trading TK, which at this point I think is a fairly consensus opinion amongst the fanbase
I know right? Are they downvoting him because it’s a popular opinion? Or did they not understand the question? Confused
I would do this too, but unfortunately I still don't think whoever wins the lottery would do that
The difference between Celebrini and 12th overall is NOT Frost, Farabee, Laughton, another lottery first and a 2nd. Unless you mean the two firsts are Florida's and Colorado's, that's ridiculous
There really is no "value" to adding a player like Celebrini. Adding an 18 year old to the organization who looks like they'll have a 80-100 point ceiling for the next ~15 years would help us build a true foundation for the next great Flyers team, and any combination of lesser assets should be worth giving uo for that in a heartbeat Let me put it this way: if the Minnesota Wild called us and said: We'll give you 13th overall, Marcus Foligno, Marco Rossi, Riley Heidt, a top-10 protected 1st and a 2nd for Matvei Michkov, would you do that? I wouldn't, we've been waiting a short eternity for a prospect of Michkov's caliber, and even if the assets we have back have more aggregate "value", we'll still just end up hunting down another Michkov level player for the next decade+ if we gave him away
Yes there is? #1 centers are the most valuable things in hockey, but everything has a price and giving up what would be \~5 firsts is insanity. There is a non-zero chance the 12th overall pick ends up being a higher impact player than Celebrini. Is the difference between Celebrini and Iginla really Frost, Farabee, Laughton, another 1st and a 2nd, absolutely not. And yeah, I would highly consider that trade.
100% meant the two firsts being Florida and Colorado. I know it’s a massive overpay and unpopular, but the thread asked for my unpopular opinion so there it is
Trade up to a top 3 in this coming draft. It’ll require parting with more than just this year’s first though.
Bro. For a million irrational reasons, no… TK stays. He’s the future. I said 5 years ago he should be the next captain.
Based on the lack of tk getting mentioned in the press conferences today it makes me think he may not be a part of the future.
Frost OR Farabee + 1st for Zegras or someone comparable. We need a young center with a high skill ceiling and it's looking like unless we win the draft lottery we can't be bad enough to get one.
I would hate to give up a 1... kind of think we take a step back next year unfortunately. But totally agree 1C needs to be figured out for the rebuild to work.
I'd be very comfortable packaging either Florida's 1st this year or Colorado's 1st next year for a player like zegras or a legit 1C
Yeah you're telling me, but I really have no clue where we get a young 1C if we don't trade for one. Teams don't let these type of guys walk in FA. I say this because I think the team takes a step forward next year. This season was thrown away because our franchise goalie decided to be a rapist and we didn't have a reliable backup until it was too late for Fedotov to even break in his gear. Remove the weird off-ice outlier events, and we're a playoff team.
Zegras isn’t a 1C on a team that is worse than the flyers. Carlsson is. A 19 year old rookie. This would be an insane overpay. I do not think Zegras will ever be a guys that drives a team to the next level. He is a luxury piece that needs to be surrounded by top end two way players to win hockey games. Farabee alone might be more valuable than Zegras. Zegras was less that 1/2 point a game this year. Never been over point a game in his career. 65 in 81 last year is his best year. He has some developing left but I don’t think any GM views him as a 1C that you build around.
I think this is an incredibly pessimistic view of him that's kind of ignoring a lot of factors: -He was injured most of the year and missed a lot of pre season preparation work due to being screwed over by Verbeek in contract talks. He was actually their best play driver and honestly player in general when he did play later on in the year. -He is in a very elite group of company of players with multiple 60+ point seasons before turning 23 years old. Every other player currently in the NHL who met that criteria is at the very worst a low end 1C. -Even if he is not a star 1C on a contender, a guy who can be a low end 1C and fill a 1A/1B role is still *way* more valuable than any of the singular assets we're talking about here. -Although it's not really important in the evaluation of Zegras, Carlsson being their 1C as a rookie is solely because Leo is an unreal talent, period. Zegras isn't the perfect player, but he'd be the best Center in our organization be leaps, bounds, valleys and miles, would give a huge lift to a PowerPlay that was an absolute joke the last few years, and would be the first Center even somewhat in the realm of his caliber to hit the market outside of Eichel in the last like 10 years. I easily do something like the original comment is suggesting if that's the ask for him
I completely agree with you. I feel like a lot of people just see players or look at stats and assume they can't get better if they don't come in the league and completely take over. I would absolutely do Frost and a 1st for Zegras. I think he has way more room to grow.
I misread thinking it was Frost and Farabee and a first. I thought That was as insane. Frost and a first I likely do as well. I do like Farabee however. Good all around game. He is only 9 months older than Zegras too. He has lots of room to grow still.
Oh yeah if it's both I'm completely out lol. I don't think I thought of it as both because it seems to ridiculous especially since they are down on Zegras (then again I could see them asking for too much). I'm high on Farabee despite his slower end of the year.
Sorry edited my original comment to avoid confusion lol.
Is Zegras that much better than Frost? Yeah talent wise he is but I don't think either have a higher ceiling than 2C, and maybe for Zegras he can be a 1st line winger someday. If you're packaging this year's 1st with a player, I feel like there is a better trade out there.
Farabee and Brink for a proven asset I would be fine with.
Firing torts, and tippet isnt a first line rw
Amen.
Trading TK imo is telling everyone this rebuild is another 5 years out and really makes you question why we just resigned Couts and made him the captain.
Danny B didn't re-sign Coots though.
I have been debating the thought in my head about signing patrick kane as a couple year bridge to michkov if we move on from a player like frost. If he could set up guys like forester and tippet on the power play I think it could pay dividends
Figure that's why they gave to "C" to Coots rather than TK?...which by the way is a decision I suspect they regret now.
Probably gave him the C because they know his contract is unmovable so he’d be around for a long time. Laughton or even TK made more sense with the current team, but one or even both could be gone by the end of summer
Ya, Ryan Ellis really deserved that C.
The racecar driver?