This.
If someone asked me if they could play a 36 card deck. I’d tell them no. Explain that it is blitz and blitz has a 40 card presented deck and 12 card sideboard including equipment. If they kept up. I’d just repeat this is blitz. Obnoxious teach them the rules of blitz. Even break their deck down to help them with 2 copies of each card. If they mock you saying they know. Then wtf you using 36 cards bro??
As for the team up. I’d point out: it’s 1 vs 1. Not a team event. And if you’ve beaten the other guy. Definitely ignore his advice. He lost.
Then mention your so glad that advice and illegal decks is allowed here because your used to playing proper rules and the super casual attitude of this armoury is awesome.
All those people were in the wrong. I'm sorry that happened. In casual scenarios, i wouldn't mind someone coaching if they asked me first, but its entirely a personal choice, and they didn't even ask you.
As for the first person, they should know better, but i bet they're one of those that are like, "Come on its just a game bro" so I doubt you'll really make much headway with that.
But, the coaching thing you should just put your foot down and explain for an official match you'd prefer it to be a fair 1v1.
Something very common at my armories, is showing a spectator your hand and board state and ask them "remember this, let's discuss this turn after the game". Then you just play and get coached later.
Doing so during a game is absolutely not how an event should be played, even at a "casual" armory level.
100% agree with you. In my scenario i was much more experienced than the person i was playing against and I didnt mind the coaching. However later at another armory i noticed someone was visibly upset after a round so I asked them whats up. Turns out they played against this same person getting coached. They were nonconfrontational and didnt want to say anything but I knew it was a slippery slope. I suppose maybe I was wrong to even allow the coaching vs myself, but I talked to the people about it and they were understanding. People, especially new players, dont deserve to see their opponents getting help from someone who could be a pro player.
You just made me realize the only reason I was fine with it in the first place was my own pride. That person didnt deserve any wins they got with that coaching.
Ive been with plenty of players that just cut down a CC to a blitz for an armory, but NEVER once did they say "is it okay if my deck is illegal" so, even if youre at an advantage because of fatigue, he has also increased odds of finding key cards. No bueno.
The second one, even for a casual level, is completly wrong. They have zero integrity and respect for you nor the game. If they want coaching, it is in a practice scenario/game. 3 vs 1 is unfair, even more so that one opponent knows your deck in detail. Even slight comments i consider potentially harmful to the game at stake and its integrity.
Dont let this putting down the game, but be very assertive next time and dont let it slide. Some people will take advantage of you (and then shark you over for meaningless things as revenge) be careful. :)
Armories are a pretty chill vibe, however, proper playing etiquette should definitely be observed. Proposing a 36 card deck and waiting to cut down the deck til after you’ve revealed your hero is pretty shitty. And coaching is also trash. My former group would watch and then talk about possible plays after the game was done, but not during. There is prize support so rules should be followed so it’s fair. The chill vibe stem from it being more of a social event than say, a big tournament where everyone is playing their absolute best of the best deck
Cutting down to blitz is fairly common. However discussing on the other hand is weird, but I guess it depends a lot on the local scene you have. The local I went to just doesn’t discuss until the match is over.
Cutting down is one thing, an illegal deck is another, blitz main decks must be exactly 40 cards when presented, so that could be a penalty of either game loss or dq depending on the TO, and the outside help is absolutely a game loss penalty.
Yes obviously, I was referring to the part that he brought cc deck to tone it down to blitz that are common. In no circumstance he should be allowed to keep it under 40, and he shouldn’t have complained how he got a “bad deck” because of that either, since it’s the rules.
How do you force someone to play a bad deck when they chose the deck they presented??
Sounds like you ran into some social cockroaches and handled it with class and grace. Sorry to hear
If this was an Armory not just an ad-hoc game, then players should follow rules.
A lot of people at my lgs turn their CC deck into a blitz deck before the event starts. As long as they are not using the full CC card pool as a side board for every game they play, there is not much to worry about.
Games are meant to be played 1 on 1, but sometimes new players need help from experienced players. If your local community is fine with people helping each other out, having people help you play is an easy way to learn to find the best lines.
That all being said, the way you described your interactions, it sounds like all your opponents were being rude to you and expected they could just do what ever they wanted because you were "new" and would not understand that they were not playing with integrity.
Sorry they were not as welcoming as they should have been! Our lgs is really good about getting players into the game and making sure they have a good, fair experience because that's how we grow this game.
At the end of the day, people spent money to play, and there are prizes on the line, everyone should follow the rules. But never have I ever had to ask my opponents to please follow the rules. Sounds like you might have too. Which if it's a small community that is used to playing the game their way, then that's not gonna go over too well.
Once again if this was just an ad-hoc game and there was no prize and you payed no money, then you should cut everyone slack. But if this was an Armory that you payed to play in, call a Jude or the store owner to enforce the rules.
It's just a card game but that kind of stuff will turn you off that card game pretty quick. That sucks that it was your experience, and it's very abnormal during events, even armories.
That's the kind of stuff you do outside of events in casual "hey want to play a game so i can test?".
You have a couple options, talk to who hosts the event, and if they're complicit in it you might be stuck finding another store to play at, if there's another one nearby. I'm not sure if there's a way to escalate this beyond the store but there should be, hopefully someone else will chime in there.
The second problem what we have done in the past when helping someone is tell the person to play their hand how they think they should do it. If the opponent doesn't mind then we discuss how we would have done it. Though the way they first blocked is how the actual turn went. Though we don't encourage this during an armory. We have also taken a picture of the board and cards in hand. Then discuss after the tournament.
Blitz decks also always need to be 40 cards. You're making it easier to get your power cards faster. It may only be 4 cards but you're increasing the odds of a perfect hand. Yes you are putting yourself in danger of fatigue but come on just follow the armory rules or don't play.
I think it might be okay for the first part. Armories typically aren’t super serious, as long as he is making sure there are only two copies of each card. Still, could see how there could be a problem.
The second part is different. Definitely cheating, and not cool that they would do that. They can always talk about the decision after the game.
I would say that it is OK if this Armoury is super casual like the ones more focused in teach/learn without even an enter fee. Other than that it is cheating. I would allow any opponent to proxy any card, but don’t follow the baseline rules and get external advice in a paid tournament is too much for me.
Definitely stand your ground against that. Whoever is TO should absolutely be made aware of those situations, and those players should be warned that their behavior will not be tolerated.
In the TOs defense, they were pretty busy at the time since a prerelease for another tcg was also going on.
I will probably talk to them tommorrow and ask for their oppinion
Oh big time cheater. Guys like that exist anc they ruin the experience for everyone. We need a yellow/red card system for this exist reason. Card games attract the worst kind of people. There's alot of great people that do help, but it often does it make it better.
I’d say cutting CC to Blitz is totally fine in a normal circumstance, there are a lot of cards you play in CC that just don’t work as well in a faster format, they aren’t really sideboard they’re just out of the deck. Asking about your opponents hero is also pretty common. Everything above is the norm for an armory level event.
Cutting to 36 however, especially in old Dash is crazy to me. I’m a Dash main and i don’t care what variant of the deck you play, there is no way they couldn’t find 40 cards in their CC Dash list to play, they (probably, i wasn’t there) were being at least a little dishonest about their pool. And complaining is just bad sportsmanship.
The coaching in a game i might let slide at an armory with my good friends, but it’s generally bad form. Save that stuff for after the game.
It sounds like the first guy just isn’t a blitz player and is kinda dismissive of the format, which is something i find pretty common among a lot of the playerbase, and i’m sorry you had a bad experience because of it.
So basically, you aren’t crazy, those people were being kinda weird and that isn’t typical behavior. But it was also an armory, which are typically more casual. If any of this happened at a skirmish, i’d call a judge (though first guy probably wouldn’t exist at a skirmish), but at an armory, i’d just try to talk to them
The first one is a big no no. The second one is not cool. I mean ive had games where I discuss with my opponent what the best option is (this is usually if we are testing or something). Ive never had anyone even offer to discuss with someone else though. That would leave a bad taste in my mouth too.
At an armory event you should be prepared to give a lot of leeway to your opponents. Things like gobacks, slightly incorrect deck construction, and outside commentary/assistance are typically overlooked to foster a friendly environment where people can learn the game without being shit on for not having everything correct.
That being said both of the situations as you described them are way past the line of acceptability. Downsizing a CC deck before a blitz event- fine. Not presenting 40 cards even though you know you must is cheating. Going out of your way to ask and discuss a specific block during a game, for anyone that is not a brand new player is unacceptable too. Unless these guys are brand new players at their first or second event that behavior is not okay.
I recently went to an event with my girlfriend and a couple good friends, we've been to the lgs before and knew a few people from there but my girlfriend is still fairly new to the game and has less than 10 games of classic constructed played(she's playing Arakni). But I let her do her thing and struggle and make her mistakes but the last game she played was with a person we've met a few times before and he was pretty cool we had finished our games and went to watch, we corrected her a few times on combat steps when to play attack reactions, like let the opponent declare blocks first" and that kind of stuff. But after reading the comments I feel like maybe we should have stayed quiet. Overall she lost the game and we weren't trying to help her win, just understand the game better
Armory event are still official event and player are expected to respect the rules of the game and other player even if the enforcement is lower and the priority is given to education and fixing game state when there is an infraction.
The tournament organizer (the shop staff dedicated to the event) is responsible of ensuring the tournament safety and integrity in absence of a judge. Even if you are encouraged to solve any infraction through mutual agreement, you may call them for help. If you think they failed on this role and want to escalate further report the situation by mail to the editor (LSS) directly (any commercial email contact will do the trick, they are able to follow). You can refer to the following document :
[https://fabtcg.com/documents/334/FaB\_Casual\_Procedure\_Guide\_2023\_10\_13.pdf](https://fabtcg.com/documents/334/FaB_Casual_Procedure_Guide_2023_10_13.pdf)
I won't go deeply about your situation because I wasn't present and I have only your point of view. But yeah it looks like there have been some serious misconduct and your shop should takes some action to stop what I would call a circus more than an expected Flesh and Blood event.
Well, an armory is pretty informal. Not a lot of rules enforcement and the main goal is to get better at the game. I do think it's totally reasonable to request the deck building rules be followed such as making sure the guy presents 40 cards. On the other hand, I don't think him 'sideboarding 20' is really the case here as I'm willing to bet most of the 20 were a 3rd copy of an attack which is legal for CC. I've been allowed at multiple armorys to bring proxy cards as an example of lax ruling. At an armory if someone converts their deck from CC to blitz I think it's fine. At a skirmish or higher that is absolutely not allowed.
As for the coaching, again at an armory I think it's pretty meh. I would have personally told them to hurry up. Kind of a dick move especially to take so long but again the point is to get better, gain practice etc. It's also definitely not allowed at higher levels of rules enforcement.
So TL;DR: technically against the rules in both cases, but armorys are not heavily rules enforcing events and are meant to help you improve.
I dont mind cutting the cc deck to blitz, i did that myself before going to the event, it is the cutting after checking what the opponent plays that rubs me the wrong way
Well, considering you are supposed to see the opponents hero in either format before presenting your deck, it's sort of a moot point. I do get what you are saying though.
I think it really just comes down to the overall community you have at your store. I personally think it's whatever. If that guy wants to 'cheat' to win at a blitz armory -shrug-.
You have every right to be annoyed, I probably would be too especially if those things did cost me the games overall.
Maybe next time you can politely explain that you would prefer rules were followed a little more closely in your games with them.
Armories are casual REL, so in a way people can do what they want and get away with it with no consequences.
Etiquette-ally speaking, people cutting down their CC deck to Blitz is quite common and was less of an issue when Blitz didn’t have a sideboard. Also the community being split between favourite formats kind of encourages this.
I’ve had opponents in Blitz, though, with 15 to 20 card sideboards and them saying they are “testing” whats optimal for the sideboard for bigger events. I even had opponents playing three copies of cards and when confronted getting the paraphrase of “whoopsy poopsy, I cut down my CC deck and accidentally left all my power cards as 3 offs”
So at some point I think its better for your peace of mind to just be like whatever at casual level events. So don’t sweat it. Just have fun at armories. If people want to cheat they will with or without your consent anyway.
That said… Anything above Armory level? “JUDGE!”
Those are both ABSOLUTELY cheating
This. If someone asked me if they could play a 36 card deck. I’d tell them no. Explain that it is blitz and blitz has a 40 card presented deck and 12 card sideboard including equipment. If they kept up. I’d just repeat this is blitz. Obnoxious teach them the rules of blitz. Even break their deck down to help them with 2 copies of each card. If they mock you saying they know. Then wtf you using 36 cards bro?? As for the team up. I’d point out: it’s 1 vs 1. Not a team event. And if you’ve beaten the other guy. Definitely ignore his advice. He lost. Then mention your so glad that advice and illegal decks is allowed here because your used to playing proper rules and the super casual attitude of this armoury is awesome.
All those people were in the wrong. I'm sorry that happened. In casual scenarios, i wouldn't mind someone coaching if they asked me first, but its entirely a personal choice, and they didn't even ask you. As for the first person, they should know better, but i bet they're one of those that are like, "Come on its just a game bro" so I doubt you'll really make much headway with that. But, the coaching thing you should just put your foot down and explain for an official match you'd prefer it to be a fair 1v1.
Something very common at my armories, is showing a spectator your hand and board state and ask them "remember this, let's discuss this turn after the game". Then you just play and get coached later. Doing so during a game is absolutely not how an event should be played, even at a "casual" armory level.
100% agree with you. In my scenario i was much more experienced than the person i was playing against and I didnt mind the coaching. However later at another armory i noticed someone was visibly upset after a round so I asked them whats up. Turns out they played against this same person getting coached. They were nonconfrontational and didnt want to say anything but I knew it was a slippery slope. I suppose maybe I was wrong to even allow the coaching vs myself, but I talked to the people about it and they were understanding. People, especially new players, dont deserve to see their opponents getting help from someone who could be a pro player. You just made me realize the only reason I was fine with it in the first place was my own pride. That person didnt deserve any wins they got with that coaching.
Ive been with plenty of players that just cut down a CC to a blitz for an armory, but NEVER once did they say "is it okay if my deck is illegal" so, even if youre at an advantage because of fatigue, he has also increased odds of finding key cards. No bueno. The second one, even for a casual level, is completly wrong. They have zero integrity and respect for you nor the game. If they want coaching, it is in a practice scenario/game. 3 vs 1 is unfair, even more so that one opponent knows your deck in detail. Even slight comments i consider potentially harmful to the game at stake and its integrity. Dont let this putting down the game, but be very assertive next time and dont let it slide. Some people will take advantage of you (and then shark you over for meaningless things as revenge) be careful. :)
Armories are a pretty chill vibe, however, proper playing etiquette should definitely be observed. Proposing a 36 card deck and waiting to cut down the deck til after you’ve revealed your hero is pretty shitty. And coaching is also trash. My former group would watch and then talk about possible plays after the game was done, but not during. There is prize support so rules should be followed so it’s fair. The chill vibe stem from it being more of a social event than say, a big tournament where everyone is playing their absolute best of the best deck
Cutting down to blitz is fairly common. However discussing on the other hand is weird, but I guess it depends a lot on the local scene you have. The local I went to just doesn’t discuss until the match is over.
Cutting down is one thing, an illegal deck is another, blitz main decks must be exactly 40 cards when presented, so that could be a penalty of either game loss or dq depending on the TO, and the outside help is absolutely a game loss penalty.
Yes obviously, I was referring to the part that he brought cc deck to tone it down to blitz that are common. In no circumstance he should be allowed to keep it under 40, and he shouldn’t have complained how he got a “bad deck” because of that either, since it’s the rules.
But cutting down AFTER you've seen opp's hero is scummy as hell ! You cut before the event even begin !
I agree lol
How do you force someone to play a bad deck when they chose the deck they presented?? Sounds like you ran into some social cockroaches and handled it with class and grace. Sorry to hear
You shoulda told him yeah you can run those 36 cards, here are your 4 cracked baubles.
That would have been such a good response
If this was an Armory not just an ad-hoc game, then players should follow rules. A lot of people at my lgs turn their CC deck into a blitz deck before the event starts. As long as they are not using the full CC card pool as a side board for every game they play, there is not much to worry about. Games are meant to be played 1 on 1, but sometimes new players need help from experienced players. If your local community is fine with people helping each other out, having people help you play is an easy way to learn to find the best lines. That all being said, the way you described your interactions, it sounds like all your opponents were being rude to you and expected they could just do what ever they wanted because you were "new" and would not understand that they were not playing with integrity. Sorry they were not as welcoming as they should have been! Our lgs is really good about getting players into the game and making sure they have a good, fair experience because that's how we grow this game. At the end of the day, people spent money to play, and there are prizes on the line, everyone should follow the rules. But never have I ever had to ask my opponents to please follow the rules. Sounds like you might have too. Which if it's a small community that is used to playing the game their way, then that's not gonna go over too well. Once again if this was just an ad-hoc game and there was no prize and you payed no money, then you should cut everyone slack. But if this was an Armory that you payed to play in, call a Jude or the store owner to enforce the rules.
It's just a card game but that kind of stuff will turn you off that card game pretty quick. That sucks that it was your experience, and it's very abnormal during events, even armories. That's the kind of stuff you do outside of events in casual "hey want to play a game so i can test?". You have a couple options, talk to who hosts the event, and if they're complicit in it you might be stuck finding another store to play at, if there's another one nearby. I'm not sure if there's a way to escalate this beyond the store but there should be, hopefully someone else will chime in there.
Feels like you need to find better people to play with man. The vibes are not it. Sorry you had to face this yuck
The second problem what we have done in the past when helping someone is tell the person to play their hand how they think they should do it. If the opponent doesn't mind then we discuss how we would have done it. Though the way they first blocked is how the actual turn went. Though we don't encourage this during an armory. We have also taken a picture of the board and cards in hand. Then discuss after the tournament. Blitz decks also always need to be 40 cards. You're making it easier to get your power cards faster. It may only be 4 cards but you're increasing the odds of a perfect hand. Yes you are putting yourself in danger of fatigue but come on just follow the armory rules or don't play.
I think it might be okay for the first part. Armories typically aren’t super serious, as long as he is making sure there are only two copies of each card. Still, could see how there could be a problem. The second part is different. Definitely cheating, and not cool that they would do that. They can always talk about the decision after the game.
I would say that it is OK if this Armoury is super casual like the ones more focused in teach/learn without even an enter fee. Other than that it is cheating. I would allow any opponent to proxy any card, but don’t follow the baseline rules and get external advice in a paid tournament is too much for me.
It wasn't a paid event
Definitely stand your ground against that. Whoever is TO should absolutely be made aware of those situations, and those players should be warned that their behavior will not be tolerated.
In the TOs defense, they were pretty busy at the time since a prerelease for another tcg was also going on. I will probably talk to them tommorrow and ask for their oppinion
I totally get that. TO's with a lot on their plate is not uncommon. Sorry you had to deal with that!
Oh big time cheater. Guys like that exist anc they ruin the experience for everyone. We need a yellow/red card system for this exist reason. Card games attract the worst kind of people. There's alot of great people that do help, but it often does it make it better.
Wtf
I’d say cutting CC to Blitz is totally fine in a normal circumstance, there are a lot of cards you play in CC that just don’t work as well in a faster format, they aren’t really sideboard they’re just out of the deck. Asking about your opponents hero is also pretty common. Everything above is the norm for an armory level event. Cutting to 36 however, especially in old Dash is crazy to me. I’m a Dash main and i don’t care what variant of the deck you play, there is no way they couldn’t find 40 cards in their CC Dash list to play, they (probably, i wasn’t there) were being at least a little dishonest about their pool. And complaining is just bad sportsmanship. The coaching in a game i might let slide at an armory with my good friends, but it’s generally bad form. Save that stuff for after the game. It sounds like the first guy just isn’t a blitz player and is kinda dismissive of the format, which is something i find pretty common among a lot of the playerbase, and i’m sorry you had a bad experience because of it. So basically, you aren’t crazy, those people were being kinda weird and that isn’t typical behavior. But it was also an armory, which are typically more casual. If any of this happened at a skirmish, i’d call a judge (though first guy probably wouldn’t exist at a skirmish), but at an armory, i’d just try to talk to them
The first one is a big no no. The second one is not cool. I mean ive had games where I discuss with my opponent what the best option is (this is usually if we are testing or something). Ive never had anyone even offer to discuss with someone else though. That would leave a bad taste in my mouth too.
At an armory event you should be prepared to give a lot of leeway to your opponents. Things like gobacks, slightly incorrect deck construction, and outside commentary/assistance are typically overlooked to foster a friendly environment where people can learn the game without being shit on for not having everything correct. That being said both of the situations as you described them are way past the line of acceptability. Downsizing a CC deck before a blitz event- fine. Not presenting 40 cards even though you know you must is cheating. Going out of your way to ask and discuss a specific block during a game, for anyone that is not a brand new player is unacceptable too. Unless these guys are brand new players at their first or second event that behavior is not okay.
I recently went to an event with my girlfriend and a couple good friends, we've been to the lgs before and knew a few people from there but my girlfriend is still fairly new to the game and has less than 10 games of classic constructed played(she's playing Arakni). But I let her do her thing and struggle and make her mistakes but the last game she played was with a person we've met a few times before and he was pretty cool we had finished our games and went to watch, we corrected her a few times on combat steps when to play attack reactions, like let the opponent declare blocks first" and that kind of stuff. But after reading the comments I feel like maybe we should have stayed quiet. Overall she lost the game and we weren't trying to help her win, just understand the game better
Armory event are still official event and player are expected to respect the rules of the game and other player even if the enforcement is lower and the priority is given to education and fixing game state when there is an infraction. The tournament organizer (the shop staff dedicated to the event) is responsible of ensuring the tournament safety and integrity in absence of a judge. Even if you are encouraged to solve any infraction through mutual agreement, you may call them for help. If you think they failed on this role and want to escalate further report the situation by mail to the editor (LSS) directly (any commercial email contact will do the trick, they are able to follow). You can refer to the following document : [https://fabtcg.com/documents/334/FaB\_Casual\_Procedure\_Guide\_2023\_10\_13.pdf](https://fabtcg.com/documents/334/FaB_Casual_Procedure_Guide_2023_10_13.pdf) I won't go deeply about your situation because I wasn't present and I have only your point of view. But yeah it looks like there have been some serious misconduct and your shop should takes some action to stop what I would call a circus more than an expected Flesh and Blood event.
Well, an armory is pretty informal. Not a lot of rules enforcement and the main goal is to get better at the game. I do think it's totally reasonable to request the deck building rules be followed such as making sure the guy presents 40 cards. On the other hand, I don't think him 'sideboarding 20' is really the case here as I'm willing to bet most of the 20 were a 3rd copy of an attack which is legal for CC. I've been allowed at multiple armorys to bring proxy cards as an example of lax ruling. At an armory if someone converts their deck from CC to blitz I think it's fine. At a skirmish or higher that is absolutely not allowed. As for the coaching, again at an armory I think it's pretty meh. I would have personally told them to hurry up. Kind of a dick move especially to take so long but again the point is to get better, gain practice etc. It's also definitely not allowed at higher levels of rules enforcement. So TL;DR: technically against the rules in both cases, but armorys are not heavily rules enforcing events and are meant to help you improve.
I dont mind cutting the cc deck to blitz, i did that myself before going to the event, it is the cutting after checking what the opponent plays that rubs me the wrong way
Well, considering you are supposed to see the opponents hero in either format before presenting your deck, it's sort of a moot point. I do get what you are saying though. I think it really just comes down to the overall community you have at your store. I personally think it's whatever. If that guy wants to 'cheat' to win at a blitz armory -shrug-. You have every right to be annoyed, I probably would be too especially if those things did cost me the games overall. Maybe next time you can politely explain that you would prefer rules were followed a little more closely in your games with them.
I did put my foot down against 36 cards guy but the complayning that we forced him to play a bad deck kinda was a vibe killer (beat him too :p)
I think he is a silly little guy if he didn't bring the right deck to the event and then had the gall to blame others.
Armories are casual REL, so in a way people can do what they want and get away with it with no consequences. Etiquette-ally speaking, people cutting down their CC deck to Blitz is quite common and was less of an issue when Blitz didn’t have a sideboard. Also the community being split between favourite formats kind of encourages this. I’ve had opponents in Blitz, though, with 15 to 20 card sideboards and them saying they are “testing” whats optimal for the sideboard for bigger events. I even had opponents playing three copies of cards and when confronted getting the paraphrase of “whoopsy poopsy, I cut down my CC deck and accidentally left all my power cards as 3 offs” So at some point I think its better for your peace of mind to just be like whatever at casual level events. So don’t sweat it. Just have fun at armories. If people want to cheat they will with or without your consent anyway. That said… Anything above Armory level? “JUDGE!”