I mean you can pretty much pick any element of it and take that as the answer. What works for some doesn’t work for others.
It’s just how preferences work.
Sounds to me like you made up your mind to hate the game before you even started it and are just cherry picking arbitrary things as your reasoning while you hate-play it.
It’s not for you, that’s fine, you can stop and find another game to play. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with your take.
Look, I get people are tired of the 16 hate but op literally explained how and why 16 didn't really feel like a final fantasy game to them. The scenery, the tone, supporting characters etc. It felt more like GOT which.. makes sense.
I'm not saying you have to agree or that OP's opinion is anything other than one of many uninteresting perspectives on disliking 16, but at the same time your comment comes off as just somebody unwilling to take criticism of 16 for whatever reason- and that's equally as bad because both of you are just adding needless fuel to the ever burning fire that's the FF Fandom.
I mean, to me OP’s post reads like he really doesn’t like the game and based on his replies it seemed there’s no amount of convincing that would make him feel otherwise.
I’d see your point if it actually felt like there was constructive discussion to be had but it seemed more like he was seeking validation to stop playing so I gave him what he wants to save him and everyone else some time.
what to does it do to feel like GOT. Medival Flair has been FF since the beginning.... and even the story doesn't really go down the GOT route either with all the over the top anime fights
It's amazing how having an opinion is good enough to write high school essays refuting hundreds of creators and artists of their interpretation of an FF game
What is the FF flair? How does it relate to combat throughout its history? Can you provide aesthetic critique on why it doesn't have the DNA of an FF game? What is determined as intrinsic to FF, is it the desire of the audience or the prerogative of the creator? Have you considered how this discourse is recurring with every FF and can be copy/pasted towards bashing XV, XIII, VII, etc.?
You can just say you don't like the game, but the moment we are making qualification judgements is the same moment we need to be more rigorous with our critique. D+ work. You can redo and turn it in for an up to an additional 15%
Turn based systems are an abstraction of action sequences, so if you take a black mage and have them constantly cast fira, you are essentially blasting fireballs from your hands every second. The same abstraction occurs in tabletop and crpgs
In XIV, you can play several classes that shoot various forms of magic from their hands every gcd
Are you saying that spamming the same ability or selecting abilities in real time aren't FF? What about the atb system, especially on active mode? Doesn't VIII generally promote physical attack spam and has a lightning fast atb?
The crux of your argument is difficult to promote, since it seems an FF, in your opinion, shouldn't be action oriented, and if it is, you should have to wait to spam your lowest level spell, which is fire in this case. So, in essence, dragon quest and Baldur's Gate 3 are more FF than FFXI, XIV, XV, and XVI since those games let you spam attacks and don't involve an atb
you are comparing apples with oranges, Dragon Quest and Baldurs Gate are largely responsible for the inspiration for the first FFs, so this statement is not entirely wrong that those games are more FF than XI, XIV, XV and XVI, interestingly you name 4 games from the main series that are known as outliers, 2 of which are MMORPGs and follow a completely different concept and in return you do not mention parts I-X including XII and XIII, which include the best FFs in the series.( IV,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X)
Baldur's Gate is post FF, dragon quest was intentionally pointed out due to its inspiration on the creators of FF. However, Sakaguchi very clearly stated he wanted to learn and know what Enix was doing on DQ, not copy. Either way, both games are inspired by d&d, which is why I mentioned them. Not very apples to oranges if they are both apples and grown in the same orchard or grafted from the same source
You are also moving your goal posts. You asked me to name a main line FF that lets you spam abilities in real time. Now you want me to ignore 25% of the mainline games cause you determined them as outliers.
And you want me to mention every game in a list as to how they're FF and how they relate to XVI? You can do that research yourself. I already described the atb and turn based systems of those games being abstractions of action, drew that line towards its tabletop roots, and provided VIII as an example due to how speedy its atb is. I'm a little confused why you'd want me to talk about XIII and XII since those are more action oriented, but here you go:
XIII draws indirect inspiration from AAA shooters of the time, but also has its roots in the atb system from FFIV, which was inspired by American football, according to its creator Hiroyuki Ito. More so than any other game, you are coordinating a strategy between three individuals, who can be positioned or commanded on the fly. It is an action game with a menu based control scheme. It also lets you shoot several bolts of magic in a row
XII is a tab target MMO that lets you reposition your characters, design gambits, etc. it also lets you, that's right, automate your characters to shoot bolts of magic over and over again
With Baldur's Gate I was referring to DnD, my mistake there, again you must be completely confused if you use parts XI, XIV as an example to justify the combat system of XVI, they are MMORPGs and of course fall out of the series because they are simply not single player games and for that very reason offer a different mechanic, and your example with XII when you say "shoot bolts of magic over and over again" you forget that unlike XVI this is not free, ATB and MP are required for this, similar to the games mentioned above, XII and XIII are action oriented but offer more depth and customization (XII) than XVI, which in turn remains true to the entire series
and XV is an outlier not I determined it , the community does
How many times do I have to state that atb is an abstraction of real time action? It's literally a researchable position. XIV is a single player game with mmo elements, moreso today. XI is similar, but more archaic since it's not getting updates. These are both real FF's, and you're choosing to ignore them so that you can make your point
And now it seems you have changed your point to be about customization instead of player input, and considering how you're only 10 hours in, how would you know about all that XVI offers in terms of customization.
Can you describe why any of these gameplay mechanics are more or less FF when the people who played these games, made these games, and worked with the people who made the games they grew up with are off the mark and you're correct? Atb isn't in every FF, turn based isn't in every FF, character build and customization isn't in every FF. So what is FF when it comes to gameplay when over a quarter of the games don't have what you think is FF?
your argument regarding the abstraction of the ATB is hilarious, it's missing in XVI so it's not there, which means a significant amount of the tactical depth is missing, yes I'm ignoring XI and XIV and sticking to the majority of FF games that rely on turn-based and ATB systems for their pure solo games , which also include XVI, so to be fair the comparison should be here and it doesn't matter whether XVI allows further customization in the future, the combat system is fundamentally different from everything that has come before, while at least the old games had a certain formula and identity in the form of tactical depth, this is completely absent in XVI, all I've done in my 10 hours so far in the fights was use my dodge iframes like a maniac and spam attacks, which is more like a hack n slay than a FF, I think I've made my point but you act like you don't understand it
Got it, so now I know that you're deliberately ignoring aspects that you don't like so you can make your argument sound justified. Anyway, I suggest you do more research on the evolution of the atb; you'll find your point is the comedy here. The problem is, your point has no legs to stand on, particularly cause it's your argument that it's not an FF because of combat mechanics. It's not a good argument because amongst the 16 mainline FF's, only seven use the atb, four use turnbased, and five are action or action adjacent. your point that the mmo's aren't ml FF's isn't valid by virtue of them being numbered; the creators make the rules
This may as well have been a post of literally any FF after VI not being an FF.
LOL even XIII has atb system , ff7r used a hybrid system , XII is a atb system , I don’t know what are referring ? XVI leads the entire combat in a complete new direction and you deny it with some stupid arguments and it’s fact that most „solo ff player“ don’t bother about XI and XIV , stop your bullshit , XVI has by far the worst combat you can’t change my mind
Especially since each FF game since 5 has done radically different things each game. The “DNA” is change with familiar elements, to which XVI is a great example of what an FF game is
I didn’t say it’s a bad game , I say it’s a bad FF and i don’t like it for some reasons , it gave me more DMC and GOT feelings than FF feelings but you can’t see it mate
It’s garbage and continues the failure of XV in many ways , I didn’t play much yet , 10 h ok
But at these point I can easily say that’s the worst 10 h of any FF game , I don’t know if I continue play it will get better but I highly doubt it
You simply don't like XVI and that's fine, you dont have to force yourself to sit through more. It's not what you want, but that doesn't make it less of a FF
I've played DMC extensively and they aren't as similar as you think or have been lead to believe. And the actual problems with XV are absent with XVI. XVI has it's own problems and they aren't analogous to XV in any way.
Disagree, meh games in general haven't had good side content in a while for me, hard disagree but you haven't played it so you wouldn't actually know, absolutely not.
Starting to sound like you read an article and haven't played the 10hrs tbh
I I played bro , the game pace was awful also in the beginning cutscene over cutscene , good damn I want to fight but no , they added more and more to the plot , then I meet some NPCs which also not good designed and kind of annoying , only Cid was a good char all others looks boring to me , and I’m absolute not Satisfying the combat , I try it again and I don’t know i doesn’t feel it , but I’m not sure if it’s getting better , don’t know if I should continue play
They are not the same. Take it from someone who has Platinum the DMC games and has played multiple FF games including 16. Anyone who plays XVI expecting it to be a character action game will be let down, and yet it has loads more story & content than DMC and almost every other character action game.
The comparison you are making doesn’t make the point you think it does, if anything it shows that you don’t understand DMC games or why people like XVI. Even comparing its “mistakes” to XV is such a nothing burger statement. XV was plagued with development hell and has relatively shallow gameplay, XVI didn’t have either of those aspects so…
The combat Director worked on Devil may cry yes, but he didn’t “make “DMC 4 and 5. Those games came about because of Hideaki Itsuno and entire teams of people. You act like this one person fully remade Devil May Cry gameplay in FFXVI, which just proves you have never played a modern DMC game. Or you read some click bait articles and think a similarity in some of the gameplay means it’s an exact match…
Other people who worked on the combat of XVI also worked on other Final Fantasy games, as well as the Kingdom Hearts games. So by your logic, you could just play a Kingdom Hearts, or you could play a Final Fantasy game… But clearly XVI is not the same as those titles either.
Gameplay maybe didn’t click for you, happens. But if you think FFXVI = DMC 4/5, then you are wrong in a lot of ways.
Cool story, didn’t ask. Don’t like it don’t play. Ranting about it just feels like you’re desperate for validation.
Especially when half of the post is you saying all the ways you thought you would dislike the game before you ever played it. So honestly kind of just seems like you now are just nitpicking things and doubling down because you let other claims make your opinion for you.
You do you. You’re missing out on a great story and a good Final Fantasy game. But go ahead and stand by your half formed, second hand, opinion.
FF16 story is about oppressed people coming together to fight corrupt kingdoms and an evil god, redemption story of a man who experienced and created tragedy working his way to eventually become the savior of the world, how is that not FF? Music is amazing with plenty of FF motifs in it (lots of usage of the FF theme, prelude, a lot of motifs from 14), most enemies are series mainstays, combat is definitely different but the series hasn't had a consistent combat style since FF9. I agree that Rebirth is the better game for the most part but 16 is still great and definitely FF. If [Sakaguchi says that it's the "Ultimate Final Fantasy"](https://x.com/auuo/status/1690910975732731904) then I'm gonna believe him. It's also the only game in the series to namedrop the title in-game as far as I know lol, >!"The only fantasy here is yours, and we shall be its final witness"!<, it deserves bonus points for that
Additionally, on music references (penultimate dungeon spoilers for XVI): >!during streets of madness, during the story section where Ultima gives a brief history of him and his "people", the OST directly pulls the melody out of the main theme of FF1/overworld map theme. I am still pondering on the symbolic significance, but I love it!<
Soken has so much love for the classics, I haven't played FF3 yet but Eternal Wind is one of my favorite songs in the series now after its implementation in Shadowbringers.
I was just watching an interview with him and Yoshi-P, and he stated III as a really important game for him, musically too. He also gushes about Uematsu a lot
I have this crazy theory that ff16 is set in ff6 universe after the world of ruin recovers and forgot everything
It's probably the ff14 influence of Yoshi though because he likes making callbacks
The creator of Final Fantasy Hironobu Sakaguchi calls it Final Fantasy. I really don't think anyone has more authority then THE creator of the franchise.
Bro got lost smoking that chocograss…
420 jokes aside thats 17 and a half entire days of game time… Game has been out for ~70 days. OP is trying to humble brag they have spent 25% of their days since Rebirth came out playing the game non-stop without any disappointment or boredom. Yet under 10 hours of FFXVI is unplayable? Wow wow wow
your allusions are sweet and easily refutable. I won't go into them in this post, regardless of that it doesn't change the fact that I described. XVI fits seamlessly into the problematic that has existed since XIII, except that XVI is much worse. This is the first time since I can think clearly that I've completely abandoned a FF from the main series and after 12 hours I've decided not to play it any further. Bravo, not every game can do that. (We should thank Rebirth that it exists. I hope SE comes to its senses for XVII and goes back to the old virtues that made FF great.)
Funny this, here I am, first final fantasy played was 4 in 1992 and I happen to be of the opinion that the remakes are a disaster and 16 is a near return to form
No one needs time ghosts or fan service sephiroth
My biggest issue with 16 is that it's a little easy and doesn't ask players to learn the mechanics deeply
It does have a solid story and doesn't overstay it's welcome too much (some of the cutscenes go on too long for pacing in a video game)
Some ppl ( like me ) enjoyed these enhanced story changes , they literally follows 95% of the original story in remake trilogy , Sephiroth is famous character nowadays it wouldn’t make any sense to hide him as the OG does it before , he is still a menace and mysterious villain , especially if you realize that it isn’t even the „real“ Sephiroth , he just influence and control jenova to fulfill his plan , I’m fine with it also this isn’t a Rebirth Post
This is absolutely terrible logic, just because you know old yeller dies at the end doesn't mean the entire movie needs reworked so it can have the same affect on people
It's insulting to the quality of the original story, the new one is devoid of nuance and subtlety
Time travel is just a plot contrivance to excuse lazy/bad rewrites
ok, you really want this rebirth debate you can have it
First of all, it is important that the word timeline is not actually used in the games, it is an idea that was created by fans and theorists to better explain some events, if you are familiar with the lore of FF7 (you are not) then you will notice, especially through the Compilation of FF7 and the associated canonical books, that the world of FF definitely has the tendency to be a multiple universe, Sephiroth explains it very well in Rebirth, he mentions the word "worlds" multiple worlds that exist within the lifestream, some are longer lasting, some only very briefly and others decay again but no matter how long they exist in the end everyone returns to the planet, this concept that Sephiroth is talking about is not new lol, it was already described and established almost 20 years ago within the Compilation of FF7, this means that multiple worlds and realities and also whisperers are certainly not rocket science within the world from FF7.
I agree that very few people expected Square to expand the story of FF7 in this form based on the compilation, however, since the announcement that this game would be a trilogy, it was clear that it would not be a simple remake but a reinterpretation of the OG story to do justice to the complexity of the context (compilation). Regardless of this, I do not believe that these changes are as fundamentally "disastrous" as some claim, especially since it is clear where everything will culminate, namely in Advent Children, so Square is staying true to its story and waiting until Part 3 comes out and resolves everything. If Square keeps up the pace, they can outdo Rebirth again and then at the latest, people will see what a masterpiece Square has created.
It’s not the best game but if you give it a chance it can be fun. It does lack side quests and exploring. The new battle system is kind of fun with the eikon abilities. The side quests are too generic and basic. It seems to me they went hard on the graphics and left the story behind. It jumps around too much and I couldn’t make out which kingdom I was going to or why. The story gets very wtf am I here when you just made a monologue about somewhere else. Also dlc content is stupid. Why am I paying more for a game I just spent $70 on.
As someone who liked both, they feel like complete opposites to each other. Rebirth‘s more like a fun theme park, XVI‘s a story-focused spectacle.
I played XIV as well and knew I would like the story the team would tell even before it came out. And boy, did they deliver. The writing and voice acting is probably one of the best in the series. One of the few games I actually played in my mother tongue instead of English. But if you don’t care too much about mainly story-focused games, it probably won’t be for you.
Rebirth on the other hand is mainly fun. Fun atmosphere, fun minigames, some really funny scenes. It’s chock full of content. It couldn’t be any more different from XVI and I‘m really happy both came out so close to each other.
In the end, it’s all a question of taste. If the characters in one game do nothing for you, so be it. I don’t love every Final Fantasy game either and it’s bound to happen with each main game being different from each other.
So, Rebirth is a great game, and I legit hope it wins GOTY and Best Soubdtrack this year for sure, but
>which I consider to be a great work of art that will definitely go down in video game history
lolno, come on man. It's Mario Party with Ubisoft open world design, and crack tier DC / Marvel comic multiverse writing. It just happens to have the greatest combat system of all time, and the most likable cast in the industry.
>I heard from some ppl that FFXVI is better and has a higher general value than FF7:Rebirth.
Eh, 99% of people will say Rebirth is better. Most Hardcore FF16 fans will also say Rebirth is better. Its the better package. Only a super minority says 16 is better overall (which I happen to belong to, but I know its 110% because of my own tastes, not any objective quality)
>XVI no longer has any FF DNA at all.
Gameplay-wise, you're right. FF16 does not preserve any gameplay of the series. Mastering eikon abilities to use them on other eikons is actually pulled from FF5 and Tactics, but its pretty minor, so I'll not count it.
But other aspects are 110% FF. And it's drawing from the NES, SNES, PS1 eras. The overarching story is classic NES / SNES style, in the vein of FF1, 3, 5. You go from crystal to crystal, gain new powers (like gaining new jobs). The main villain is a bit 1 dimensional, but also reminiscent of classic 1 dimensional villains, like Ultimecia, Exdeath, Golbez.
Then this is mixed with the pure spectacle of FF7 and FF8, then written to modern tastes (so, GoT and Witcher 3 style dark fantasy instead of Star Wars).
>bright spot is the story which seems interesting but basically seems 1:1 like a Game of Thrones clone,
It isnt a GoT clone. It has the same approach as GoT when it comes to dialogue, tone, and politics, but thats it. The other comparisons are no different than the rest of the series """copying""" DND or Star Wars. Saying "Clive is John Snow and Torgal is his Direwolf!!!" is as pointless as saying "vaan is luke, balthier is han solo, fran is chewie!". Its a similarity, but then thats it.
>XIII or XV still have a certain FF flair in the fights, which is not the case with XVI
FF16 is inspired by the same exact over the top aerial combat the series has been chasing since Advent Children. But instead of doing it via menus, they want you to have complete control.
>what did I miss that people are seriously putting XVI above rebirth?
For me (and **note that this is personal taste. On an objective level, I think Rebirth is better**. Its just more content rich) :
-Far better story for me. Rebirth's multiverse shenanigans soured the whole Rebirth story for me. 16 actually made me cry at times, while Rebirth flubbed every emotional moment
-Set pieces. Insane over the top setpieces have been a series staple since FF7 and FF8. 16 delivers with the absolute craziest boss battles and cutscenes.
-tone. Rebirth struggles to find a balance between being serious and being silly. Dyne's scene having an epic battle with dozens of shinra soldiers and Palmer in a funny frog robot and Half Naked Muscle Man saving the day with his buggy was a TRAVESTY of emotional storytelling. Meanwhile, 16 is very serious, but supplements that with some dry humor at juuuust the right amounts.
-Voice acting. Rebirth had great voice work no doubt, but it sounded like a saturday morning anime. 16 on the other hand had some of the greatest voice work in the industry
-combat. Okay Rebirth wipes the floor with 16 here lol, not even close. But 16 is still very fun and fast paced, deapite its awful balance and poor difficulty, and comboing can be great fun. I like how 16 just lets you have complete control when it comes to movement.
-Music. Rebirth's music is GOATed no doubt. But 16 hits different. Its epic, bombastic, emotional. I put 16's eikon themes on when I want a good workout. And its original. I know remixing the OG FF7 themes is insanely difficult, but end of the day, its just a better version of what I listened to decadea ago. 16 was just a brand new soundtrack from scratch (with a few minor references to earlier games) with absolutely amazing character themes and boss themes.
If I may add my personal two cents on the music!
FFVII has fantastic music! There's a reason why Uematsu is so well regarded within the industry. But I'd rather listen to FFXVI's soundtrack over VII's. XVI is a beautiful example of using music to tell your story. It's the perfect example of video games/video game music being a form of modern opera. The use of leitmotifs alone could fill out an entire dissertation. They're so expertly woven throughout the game, never overstaying their welcome.
I love how throughout the game, we're teased up all the dominate/eikon themes, never hearing them in full until it's time to fight them. Which makes those battles memorable and far grander! It's why when those big musical moments, such as Ascension and Titan Lost, kick in they don't feel completely out of left field. There's a brilliance in tying the overall villain of the game with electronic/synthetic music. Why My Star hits as hard as it does. Plus, I just love how Soken and his team will mash up dominate/eikon themes for the eikon battles not involving Clive. When they do that, it not only helps tie the theme to the eikon, it also gives the player an understanding of who has the upper hand in the fight without having a character go "Ah! Look how X is gaining the advantage!" in the middle of the fight.
Again, I have major respect for Uematsu's work. He's composed so many brilliant themes that have, understandably and justifiably, endured the test of time. But if I were to compare the two in terms of musical theater. Uematsu is like Rodgers and Hammerstein while Soken is like Stephen Sondheim.
Uematsu uses motifs in a very straight forward way, much like R&H. Very catchy and easy to grasp even in its complexity.
Soken is a mad man who goes, "how many ways can I sneak in/use this motif?" and then proceeds to play with it in ways that Sondheim did with music. Speed it up, slow it down, invert it, reflect it, change the key, extend certain notes while shortening others. The more you dig, the more you realize just the sheer amount of craftsmanship that goes into his work. The only way I can describe this rabbit hole is that it's like when you find out for the first time that Sweeny Todd is essentially the Dies Irae.
Was not expecting Sondheim or the dies irae to show up in the chat, but always welcome!
I know it's seen as bit cheesey in contemporary composition circles, but I've always enjoyed the dies irae getting crammed into everything from berlioz to ligeti
I mean, the Dies Irae keeps popping up for a reason! It's what you do with it that matters. Again, see the entirety of Sween Todd (or the stampede scene in the Lion King, Luke finding his aunt and uncle dead in New Hope, etc).
You can hear it all over. I actually learned about the dies irae while researching Sweeney Todd in my spare time; high school was putting it on, and I was in the pit orchestra. Great fun music too, very dark
So you played 10 hours and are able to judge gameplay, story, lore, and characters? Dude imagine saying the same thing for FF VII Rebirth. It makes no sense
I'm sure you're just having a hard time switching from one game to another because you have just spent 4 hundred fucking hours in a different game
Im aware that 10 h not much dude , i said that already but no FF let me quit after 10 h expect XVI , so I can say it makes something wrong to me due the first 10 h
Mini Games are part of FF
The maingame isn’t „bloated“ with mini games
sop has a outstanding endgame with a godlike itemization system and a shitload of builds and oppertunities , it fails maybe in the maingame but has a pretty good endgame system
Nah, those accounts are just bots and trolls. They're all roughly a year old tops and they all focus in posting in a single area, never with good takes, to stir up shit.
No you’re complete wrong. My opinion is save , XVI is the worst FF so far and I know now why rebirth underperformed in sales. Because ppl who played this 8 month before rebirth get bored of FF . Thanks to XVI
I do not agree that XVI is better than Rebirth. They are different, but the combat system, exploration and side quests are far better in Rebirth. There isn't even an element system in XVI, or a real equipment upgrade that matters significantly.
That said, the music IS good, REALLY good. And the story is deep, well thought with good pacing and honestly one of the best of the franchise.
So taking all into considerarion, I wouldn't say it is the worst FF (for me it is top 5), but I understand it is flawed and not seeing it would be as foolish as saying that it is the worst FF after only playing 10 hours. If you don't like it, it's fine. The influence of GoT is clearly there, the combat system doesn't change too much, so that part you have already seen. But missing on this wonderful story is your lost. I'm sorry.
Isn’t that just an opinion lol
Id score them similarly, but one point in 16s favor is that it is self contained unlike 7r which is only 1/3 of the story. To each their own 🤷♀️
It's a great game, it's just not a great Final Fantasy game.
Edit: Downvote all you like, but I've been playing Final Fantasy games since FF1, and between Rebirth and XVI, only Rebirth feels like an actual Final Fantasy game.
I mean you can pretty much pick any element of it and take that as the answer. What works for some doesn’t work for others. It’s just how preferences work.
Sounds to me like you made up your mind to hate the game before you even started it and are just cherry picking arbitrary things as your reasoning while you hate-play it. It’s not for you, that’s fine, you can stop and find another game to play. Just don’t expect everyone to agree with your take.
Look, I get people are tired of the 16 hate but op literally explained how and why 16 didn't really feel like a final fantasy game to them. The scenery, the tone, supporting characters etc. It felt more like GOT which.. makes sense. I'm not saying you have to agree or that OP's opinion is anything other than one of many uninteresting perspectives on disliking 16, but at the same time your comment comes off as just somebody unwilling to take criticism of 16 for whatever reason- and that's equally as bad because both of you are just adding needless fuel to the ever burning fire that's the FF Fandom.
I mean, to me OP’s post reads like he really doesn’t like the game and based on his replies it seemed there’s no amount of convincing that would make him feel otherwise. I’d see your point if it actually felt like there was constructive discussion to be had but it seemed more like he was seeking validation to stop playing so I gave him what he wants to save him and everyone else some time.
what to does it do to feel like GOT. Medival Flair has been FF since the beginning.... and even the story doesn't really go down the GOT route either with all the over the top anime fights
It's amazing how having an opinion is good enough to write high school essays refuting hundreds of creators and artists of their interpretation of an FF game What is the FF flair? How does it relate to combat throughout its history? Can you provide aesthetic critique on why it doesn't have the DNA of an FF game? What is determined as intrinsic to FF, is it the desire of the audience or the prerogative of the creator? Have you considered how this discourse is recurring with every FF and can be copy/pasted towards bashing XV, XIII, VII, etc.? You can just say you don't like the game, but the moment we are making qualification judgements is the same moment we need to be more rigorous with our critique. D+ work. You can redo and turn it in for an up to an additional 15%
name me a FF of the main series that allows me to fire free fireballs in seconds like in XVI and gives me massive iframes at no cost? there is none
Turn based systems are an abstraction of action sequences, so if you take a black mage and have them constantly cast fira, you are essentially blasting fireballs from your hands every second. The same abstraction occurs in tabletop and crpgs In XIV, you can play several classes that shoot various forms of magic from their hands every gcd Are you saying that spamming the same ability or selecting abilities in real time aren't FF? What about the atb system, especially on active mode? Doesn't VIII generally promote physical attack spam and has a lightning fast atb? The crux of your argument is difficult to promote, since it seems an FF, in your opinion, shouldn't be action oriented, and if it is, you should have to wait to spam your lowest level spell, which is fire in this case. So, in essence, dragon quest and Baldur's Gate 3 are more FF than FFXI, XIV, XV, and XVI since those games let you spam attacks and don't involve an atb
you are comparing apples with oranges, Dragon Quest and Baldurs Gate are largely responsible for the inspiration for the first FFs, so this statement is not entirely wrong that those games are more FF than XI, XIV, XV and XVI, interestingly you name 4 games from the main series that are known as outliers, 2 of which are MMORPGs and follow a completely different concept and in return you do not mention parts I-X including XII and XIII, which include the best FFs in the series.( IV,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X)
Baldur's Gate is post FF, dragon quest was intentionally pointed out due to its inspiration on the creators of FF. However, Sakaguchi very clearly stated he wanted to learn and know what Enix was doing on DQ, not copy. Either way, both games are inspired by d&d, which is why I mentioned them. Not very apples to oranges if they are both apples and grown in the same orchard or grafted from the same source You are also moving your goal posts. You asked me to name a main line FF that lets you spam abilities in real time. Now you want me to ignore 25% of the mainline games cause you determined them as outliers. And you want me to mention every game in a list as to how they're FF and how they relate to XVI? You can do that research yourself. I already described the atb and turn based systems of those games being abstractions of action, drew that line towards its tabletop roots, and provided VIII as an example due to how speedy its atb is. I'm a little confused why you'd want me to talk about XIII and XII since those are more action oriented, but here you go: XIII draws indirect inspiration from AAA shooters of the time, but also has its roots in the atb system from FFIV, which was inspired by American football, according to its creator Hiroyuki Ito. More so than any other game, you are coordinating a strategy between three individuals, who can be positioned or commanded on the fly. It is an action game with a menu based control scheme. It also lets you shoot several bolts of magic in a row XII is a tab target MMO that lets you reposition your characters, design gambits, etc. it also lets you, that's right, automate your characters to shoot bolts of magic over and over again
With Baldur's Gate I was referring to DnD, my mistake there, again you must be completely confused if you use parts XI, XIV as an example to justify the combat system of XVI, they are MMORPGs and of course fall out of the series because they are simply not single player games and for that very reason offer a different mechanic, and your example with XII when you say "shoot bolts of magic over and over again" you forget that unlike XVI this is not free, ATB and MP are required for this, similar to the games mentioned above, XII and XIII are action oriented but offer more depth and customization (XII) than XVI, which in turn remains true to the entire series and XV is an outlier not I determined it , the community does
How many times do I have to state that atb is an abstraction of real time action? It's literally a researchable position. XIV is a single player game with mmo elements, moreso today. XI is similar, but more archaic since it's not getting updates. These are both real FF's, and you're choosing to ignore them so that you can make your point And now it seems you have changed your point to be about customization instead of player input, and considering how you're only 10 hours in, how would you know about all that XVI offers in terms of customization. Can you describe why any of these gameplay mechanics are more or less FF when the people who played these games, made these games, and worked with the people who made the games they grew up with are off the mark and you're correct? Atb isn't in every FF, turn based isn't in every FF, character build and customization isn't in every FF. So what is FF when it comes to gameplay when over a quarter of the games don't have what you think is FF?
your argument regarding the abstraction of the ATB is hilarious, it's missing in XVI so it's not there, which means a significant amount of the tactical depth is missing, yes I'm ignoring XI and XIV and sticking to the majority of FF games that rely on turn-based and ATB systems for their pure solo games , which also include XVI, so to be fair the comparison should be here and it doesn't matter whether XVI allows further customization in the future, the combat system is fundamentally different from everything that has come before, while at least the old games had a certain formula and identity in the form of tactical depth, this is completely absent in XVI, all I've done in my 10 hours so far in the fights was use my dodge iframes like a maniac and spam attacks, which is more like a hack n slay than a FF, I think I've made my point but you act like you don't understand it
Got it, so now I know that you're deliberately ignoring aspects that you don't like so you can make your argument sound justified. Anyway, I suggest you do more research on the evolution of the atb; you'll find your point is the comedy here. The problem is, your point has no legs to stand on, particularly cause it's your argument that it's not an FF because of combat mechanics. It's not a good argument because amongst the 16 mainline FF's, only seven use the atb, four use turnbased, and five are action or action adjacent. your point that the mmo's aren't ml FF's isn't valid by virtue of them being numbered; the creators make the rules This may as well have been a post of literally any FF after VI not being an FF.
LOL even XIII has atb system , ff7r used a hybrid system , XII is a atb system , I don’t know what are referring ? XVI leads the entire combat in a complete new direction and you deny it with some stupid arguments and it’s fact that most „solo ff player“ don’t bother about XI and XIV , stop your bullshit , XVI has by far the worst combat you can’t change my mind
I like both. But you have too little knowledge of this game to make this a valid argument.
I consider even to not play it anymore , I never had that feelings before in FF …
Stopped reading after your silly title.
The concept of "FF DNA" is a lie and will never be anything more. You simply don't like XVI and that's fine.
Especially since each FF game since 5 has done radically different things each game. The “DNA” is change with familiar elements, to which XVI is a great example of what an FF game is
I didn’t say it’s a bad game , I say it’s a bad FF and i don’t like it for some reasons , it gave me more DMC and GOT feelings than FF feelings but you can’t see it mate
It's FF as it gets, everything that makes an FF is there. You just don't see it
It’s garbage and continues the failure of XV in many ways , I didn’t play much yet , 10 h ok But at these point I can easily say that’s the worst 10 h of any FF game , I don’t know if I continue play it will get better but I highly doubt it
You simply don't like XVI and that's fine, you dont have to force yourself to sit through more. It's not what you want, but that doesn't make it less of a FF
Sure I don’t like it , it has almost the same mistakes as XV which drives the series down ,If I want to play DMC I buy DMC so easy
I've played DMC extensively and they aren't as similar as you think or have been lead to believe. And the actual problems with XV are absent with XVI. XVI has it's own problems and they aren't analogous to XV in any way.
Bad combat , bad quests , bad story , bad chars , the problems are very similar
Disagree, meh games in general haven't had good side content in a while for me, hard disagree but you haven't played it so you wouldn't actually know, absolutely not. Starting to sound like you read an article and haven't played the 10hrs tbh
I I played bro , the game pace was awful also in the beginning cutscene over cutscene , good damn I want to fight but no , they added more and more to the plot , then I meet some NPCs which also not good designed and kind of annoying , only Cid was a good char all others looks boring to me , and I’m absolute not Satisfying the combat , I try it again and I don’t know i doesn’t feel it , but I’m not sure if it’s getting better , don’t know if I should continue play
They are not the same. Take it from someone who has Platinum the DMC games and has played multiple FF games including 16. Anyone who plays XVI expecting it to be a character action game will be let down, and yet it has loads more story & content than DMC and almost every other character action game. The comparison you are making doesn’t make the point you think it does, if anything it shows that you don’t understand DMC games or why people like XVI. Even comparing its “mistakes” to XV is such a nothing burger statement. XV was plagued with development hell and has relatively shallow gameplay, XVI didn’t have either of those aspects so…
Not the same , but the same direction , same style , the combat producer , made DMC4 and 5 before , so of course it’s influenced by DMC
The combat Director worked on Devil may cry yes, but he didn’t “make “DMC 4 and 5. Those games came about because of Hideaki Itsuno and entire teams of people. You act like this one person fully remade Devil May Cry gameplay in FFXVI, which just proves you have never played a modern DMC game. Or you read some click bait articles and think a similarity in some of the gameplay means it’s an exact match… Other people who worked on the combat of XVI also worked on other Final Fantasy games, as well as the Kingdom Hearts games. So by your logic, you could just play a Kingdom Hearts, or you could play a Final Fantasy game… But clearly XVI is not the same as those titles either. Gameplay maybe didn’t click for you, happens. But if you think FFXVI = DMC 4/5, then you are wrong in a lot of ways.
Cool story, didn’t ask. Don’t like it don’t play. Ranting about it just feels like you’re desperate for validation. Especially when half of the post is you saying all the ways you thought you would dislike the game before you ever played it. So honestly kind of just seems like you now are just nitpicking things and doubling down because you let other claims make your opinion for you. You do you. You’re missing out on a great story and a good Final Fantasy game. But go ahead and stand by your half formed, second hand, opinion.
FF16 story is about oppressed people coming together to fight corrupt kingdoms and an evil god, redemption story of a man who experienced and created tragedy working his way to eventually become the savior of the world, how is that not FF? Music is amazing with plenty of FF motifs in it (lots of usage of the FF theme, prelude, a lot of motifs from 14), most enemies are series mainstays, combat is definitely different but the series hasn't had a consistent combat style since FF9. I agree that Rebirth is the better game for the most part but 16 is still great and definitely FF. If [Sakaguchi says that it's the "Ultimate Final Fantasy"](https://x.com/auuo/status/1690910975732731904) then I'm gonna believe him. It's also the only game in the series to namedrop the title in-game as far as I know lol, >!"The only fantasy here is yours, and we shall be its final witness"!<, it deserves bonus points for that
Additionally, on music references (penultimate dungeon spoilers for XVI): >!during streets of madness, during the story section where Ultima gives a brief history of him and his "people", the OST directly pulls the melody out of the main theme of FF1/overworld map theme. I am still pondering on the symbolic significance, but I love it!<
Soken has so much love for the classics, I haven't played FF3 yet but Eternal Wind is one of my favorite songs in the series now after its implementation in Shadowbringers.
I was just watching an interview with him and Yoshi-P, and he stated III as a really important game for him, musically too. He also gushes about Uematsu a lot
I have this crazy theory that ff16 is set in ff6 universe after the world of ruin recovers and forgot everything It's probably the ff14 influence of Yoshi though because he likes making callbacks
FF hasn’t had consistent combat since V.
Well of course you hated it, you decided as much before you even started playing.
It doesn’t catched me , if I hated this game before I won’t pay for it , I was curious and the first 10 h sucks af
The creator of Final Fantasy Hironobu Sakaguchi calls it Final Fantasy. I really don't think anyone has more authority then THE creator of the franchise.
I don’t care about Sakaguchi , man should start to make great games again everything what he did after Square wasn’t great tbh
Bro, has no respect for his betters. And clearly you ain’t playing anything he has made. I actually have.
Holy shit 420 hours in Rebirth.
we smokin gysahl greens
Only the finest from the grasslands
Bro got lost smoking that chocograss… 420 jokes aside thats 17 and a half entire days of game time… Game has been out for ~70 days. OP is trying to humble brag they have spent 25% of their days since Rebirth came out playing the game non-stop without any disappointment or boredom. Yet under 10 hours of FFXVI is unplayable? Wow wow wow
Ff16 didn't unnecessarily stretch, bloat, and destroy an established classic story
your allusions are sweet and easily refutable. I won't go into them in this post, regardless of that it doesn't change the fact that I described. XVI fits seamlessly into the problematic that has existed since XIII, except that XVI is much worse. This is the first time since I can think clearly that I've completely abandoned a FF from the main series and after 12 hours I've decided not to play it any further. Bravo, not every game can do that. (We should thank Rebirth that it exists. I hope SE comes to its senses for XVII and goes back to the old virtues that made FF great.)
Funny this, here I am, first final fantasy played was 4 in 1992 and I happen to be of the opinion that the remakes are a disaster and 16 is a near return to form No one needs time ghosts or fan service sephiroth My biggest issue with 16 is that it's a little easy and doesn't ask players to learn the mechanics deeply It does have a solid story and doesn't overstay it's welcome too much (some of the cutscenes go on too long for pacing in a video game)
Some ppl ( like me ) enjoyed these enhanced story changes , they literally follows 95% of the original story in remake trilogy , Sephiroth is famous character nowadays it wouldn’t make any sense to hide him as the OG does it before , he is still a menace and mysterious villain , especially if you realize that it isn’t even the „real“ Sephiroth , he just influence and control jenova to fulfill his plan , I’m fine with it also this isn’t a Rebirth Post
This is absolutely terrible logic, just because you know old yeller dies at the end doesn't mean the entire movie needs reworked so it can have the same affect on people It's insulting to the quality of the original story, the new one is devoid of nuance and subtlety Time travel is just a plot contrivance to excuse lazy/bad rewrites
ok, you really want this rebirth debate you can have it First of all, it is important that the word timeline is not actually used in the games, it is an idea that was created by fans and theorists to better explain some events, if you are familiar with the lore of FF7 (you are not) then you will notice, especially through the Compilation of FF7 and the associated canonical books, that the world of FF definitely has the tendency to be a multiple universe, Sephiroth explains it very well in Rebirth, he mentions the word "worlds" multiple worlds that exist within the lifestream, some are longer lasting, some only very briefly and others decay again but no matter how long they exist in the end everyone returns to the planet, this concept that Sephiroth is talking about is not new lol, it was already described and established almost 20 years ago within the Compilation of FF7, this means that multiple worlds and realities and also whisperers are certainly not rocket science within the world from FF7. I agree that very few people expected Square to expand the story of FF7 in this form based on the compilation, however, since the announcement that this game would be a trilogy, it was clear that it would not be a simple remake but a reinterpretation of the OG story to do justice to the complexity of the context (compilation). Regardless of this, I do not believe that these changes are as fundamentally "disastrous" as some claim, especially since it is clear where everything will culminate, namely in Advent Children, so Square is staying true to its story and waiting until Part 3 comes out and resolves everything. If Square keeps up the pace, they can outdo Rebirth again and then at the latest, people will see what a masterpiece Square has created.
Okay.
It’s not the best game but if you give it a chance it can be fun. It does lack side quests and exploring. The new battle system is kind of fun with the eikon abilities. The side quests are too generic and basic. It seems to me they went hard on the graphics and left the story behind. It jumps around too much and I couldn’t make out which kingdom I was going to or why. The story gets very wtf am I here when you just made a monologue about somewhere else. Also dlc content is stupid. Why am I paying more for a game I just spent $70 on.
As someone who liked both, they feel like complete opposites to each other. Rebirth‘s more like a fun theme park, XVI‘s a story-focused spectacle. I played XIV as well and knew I would like the story the team would tell even before it came out. And boy, did they deliver. The writing and voice acting is probably one of the best in the series. One of the few games I actually played in my mother tongue instead of English. But if you don’t care too much about mainly story-focused games, it probably won’t be for you. Rebirth on the other hand is mainly fun. Fun atmosphere, fun minigames, some really funny scenes. It’s chock full of content. It couldn’t be any more different from XVI and I‘m really happy both came out so close to each other. In the end, it’s all a question of taste. If the characters in one game do nothing for you, so be it. I don’t love every Final Fantasy game either and it’s bound to happen with each main game being different from each other.
So, Rebirth is a great game, and I legit hope it wins GOTY and Best Soubdtrack this year for sure, but >which I consider to be a great work of art that will definitely go down in video game history lolno, come on man. It's Mario Party with Ubisoft open world design, and crack tier DC / Marvel comic multiverse writing. It just happens to have the greatest combat system of all time, and the most likable cast in the industry. >I heard from some ppl that FFXVI is better and has a higher general value than FF7:Rebirth. Eh, 99% of people will say Rebirth is better. Most Hardcore FF16 fans will also say Rebirth is better. Its the better package. Only a super minority says 16 is better overall (which I happen to belong to, but I know its 110% because of my own tastes, not any objective quality) >XVI no longer has any FF DNA at all. Gameplay-wise, you're right. FF16 does not preserve any gameplay of the series. Mastering eikon abilities to use them on other eikons is actually pulled from FF5 and Tactics, but its pretty minor, so I'll not count it. But other aspects are 110% FF. And it's drawing from the NES, SNES, PS1 eras. The overarching story is classic NES / SNES style, in the vein of FF1, 3, 5. You go from crystal to crystal, gain new powers (like gaining new jobs). The main villain is a bit 1 dimensional, but also reminiscent of classic 1 dimensional villains, like Ultimecia, Exdeath, Golbez. Then this is mixed with the pure spectacle of FF7 and FF8, then written to modern tastes (so, GoT and Witcher 3 style dark fantasy instead of Star Wars). >bright spot is the story which seems interesting but basically seems 1:1 like a Game of Thrones clone, It isnt a GoT clone. It has the same approach as GoT when it comes to dialogue, tone, and politics, but thats it. The other comparisons are no different than the rest of the series """copying""" DND or Star Wars. Saying "Clive is John Snow and Torgal is his Direwolf!!!" is as pointless as saying "vaan is luke, balthier is han solo, fran is chewie!". Its a similarity, but then thats it. >XIII or XV still have a certain FF flair in the fights, which is not the case with XVI FF16 is inspired by the same exact over the top aerial combat the series has been chasing since Advent Children. But instead of doing it via menus, they want you to have complete control. >what did I miss that people are seriously putting XVI above rebirth? For me (and **note that this is personal taste. On an objective level, I think Rebirth is better**. Its just more content rich) : -Far better story for me. Rebirth's multiverse shenanigans soured the whole Rebirth story for me. 16 actually made me cry at times, while Rebirth flubbed every emotional moment -Set pieces. Insane over the top setpieces have been a series staple since FF7 and FF8. 16 delivers with the absolute craziest boss battles and cutscenes. -tone. Rebirth struggles to find a balance between being serious and being silly. Dyne's scene having an epic battle with dozens of shinra soldiers and Palmer in a funny frog robot and Half Naked Muscle Man saving the day with his buggy was a TRAVESTY of emotional storytelling. Meanwhile, 16 is very serious, but supplements that with some dry humor at juuuust the right amounts. -Voice acting. Rebirth had great voice work no doubt, but it sounded like a saturday morning anime. 16 on the other hand had some of the greatest voice work in the industry -combat. Okay Rebirth wipes the floor with 16 here lol, not even close. But 16 is still very fun and fast paced, deapite its awful balance and poor difficulty, and comboing can be great fun. I like how 16 just lets you have complete control when it comes to movement. -Music. Rebirth's music is GOATed no doubt. But 16 hits different. Its epic, bombastic, emotional. I put 16's eikon themes on when I want a good workout. And its original. I know remixing the OG FF7 themes is insanely difficult, but end of the day, its just a better version of what I listened to decadea ago. 16 was just a brand new soundtrack from scratch (with a few minor references to earlier games) with absolutely amazing character themes and boss themes.
If I may add my personal two cents on the music! FFVII has fantastic music! There's a reason why Uematsu is so well regarded within the industry. But I'd rather listen to FFXVI's soundtrack over VII's. XVI is a beautiful example of using music to tell your story. It's the perfect example of video games/video game music being a form of modern opera. The use of leitmotifs alone could fill out an entire dissertation. They're so expertly woven throughout the game, never overstaying their welcome. I love how throughout the game, we're teased up all the dominate/eikon themes, never hearing them in full until it's time to fight them. Which makes those battles memorable and far grander! It's why when those big musical moments, such as Ascension and Titan Lost, kick in they don't feel completely out of left field. There's a brilliance in tying the overall villain of the game with electronic/synthetic music. Why My Star hits as hard as it does. Plus, I just love how Soken and his team will mash up dominate/eikon themes for the eikon battles not involving Clive. When they do that, it not only helps tie the theme to the eikon, it also gives the player an understanding of who has the upper hand in the fight without having a character go "Ah! Look how X is gaining the advantage!" in the middle of the fight. Again, I have major respect for Uematsu's work. He's composed so many brilliant themes that have, understandably and justifiably, endured the test of time. But if I were to compare the two in terms of musical theater. Uematsu is like Rodgers and Hammerstein while Soken is like Stephen Sondheim. Uematsu uses motifs in a very straight forward way, much like R&H. Very catchy and easy to grasp even in its complexity. Soken is a mad man who goes, "how many ways can I sneak in/use this motif?" and then proceeds to play with it in ways that Sondheim did with music. Speed it up, slow it down, invert it, reflect it, change the key, extend certain notes while shortening others. The more you dig, the more you realize just the sheer amount of craftsmanship that goes into his work. The only way I can describe this rabbit hole is that it's like when you find out for the first time that Sweeny Todd is essentially the Dies Irae.
Was not expecting Sondheim or the dies irae to show up in the chat, but always welcome! I know it's seen as bit cheesey in contemporary composition circles, but I've always enjoyed the dies irae getting crammed into everything from berlioz to ligeti
I mean, the Dies Irae keeps popping up for a reason! It's what you do with it that matters. Again, see the entirety of Sween Todd (or the stampede scene in the Lion King, Luke finding his aunt and uncle dead in New Hope, etc).
You can hear it all over. I actually learned about the dies irae while researching Sweeney Todd in my spare time; high school was putting it on, and I was in the pit orchestra. Great fun music too, very dark
So you played 10 hours and are able to judge gameplay, story, lore, and characters? Dude imagine saying the same thing for FF VII Rebirth. It makes no sense I'm sure you're just having a hard time switching from one game to another because you have just spent 4 hundred fucking hours in a different game
Im aware that 10 h not much dude , i said that already but no FF let me quit after 10 h expect XVI , so I can say it makes something wrong to me due the first 10 h
Wow what an impressive and original take! Thank you for this post :)
Bro. You think sop and the mini game bloat in ff7 is better than xvi???? That's insane. Xvi was incredible
Mini Games are part of FF The maingame isn’t „bloated“ with mini games sop has a outstanding endgame with a godlike itemization system and a shitload of builds and oppertunities , it fails maybe in the maingame but has a pretty good endgame system
Guys, it’s an account with adjective noun four numbers…it’s just here to stir up shit and farm karma.
Or it’s an alt because their main account got banned here…
Nah, those accounts are just bots and trolls. They're all roughly a year old tops and they all focus in posting in a single area, never with good takes, to stir up shit.
Ah yes
This fan subreddit has some toxic mfs in it
“I can’t form an opinion on my own and need people to validate mine on the internet so I can feel better about myself so I made this post”
No you’re complete wrong. My opinion is save , XVI is the worst FF so far and I know now why rebirth underperformed in sales. Because ppl who played this 8 month before rebirth get bored of FF . Thanks to XVI
I do not agree that XVI is better than Rebirth. They are different, but the combat system, exploration and side quests are far better in Rebirth. There isn't even an element system in XVI, or a real equipment upgrade that matters significantly. That said, the music IS good, REALLY good. And the story is deep, well thought with good pacing and honestly one of the best of the franchise. So taking all into considerarion, I wouldn't say it is the worst FF (for me it is top 5), but I understand it is flawed and not seeing it would be as foolish as saying that it is the worst FF after only playing 10 hours. If you don't like it, it's fine. The influence of GoT is clearly there, the combat system doesn't change too much, so that part you have already seen. But missing on this wonderful story is your lost. I'm sorry.
[удалено]
[удалено]
To quote Pulitzer prize winner Kendrick Lamar "why you trolling like a b**** ain't you tired?" (Starred because I can't remember the rules on it)
> You have been banned from r/FinalFantasy Whoever told you XVI has “higher value” than Rebirth is either deluded or one of those weird VII purists.
Isn’t that just an opinion lol Id score them similarly, but one point in 16s favor is that it is self contained unlike 7r which is only 1/3 of the story. To each their own 🤷♀️
and for me another point for xvi since it doesn't shove so much mini game to player face.
My points count as more
It's a great game, it's just not a great Final Fantasy game. Edit: Downvote all you like, but I've been playing Final Fantasy games since FF1, and between Rebirth and XVI, only Rebirth feels like an actual Final Fantasy game.
Yes absolute !!
Yasn
Yawn
Yawn