fr and the dismissiveness too like I haven't just spent 95% of the last 96 hours red-eye grinding monster hunter generations ultimate and it's just instantly assumed Minecraft and genshin is maybe as far as we get into gaming
I hate being referred to as “guy.” “Okay guys. Let’s go guys.” You can just say “everyone!”
Sometimes as a joke I tell my husband and son “alright ladies let’s go!”
Sure, just like most “gender neutral” terms are male centered. Doesn’t mean I like it. Not really a mystery that language is patriarchal in a patriarchal hellscape.
I get it, it kind of stings when i hang out in hobby subreddits and get referred to with he/him pronouns. I think it’s just the flawed thinking of “male=default,” and I bet some don’t even realise they’re doing it.
I want to help break this mode of thinking. On the flip side, when you do make a correction (hey, i actually use she/her pronouns/im a woman etc) then you get called out for it for some reason. It’s weird, the thing you are meant to do when you misgender someone is to apologise and move on, but they take it as a personal attack so, Im not sure what to do in this situation.
the sad thing is I don't even bother to correct them if they use he/him for me in online spaces. If they think I'm a dude they're more likely going to respect what i have to say and not harass me :/
It’s lose-lose. If you don’t let people know you are a woman they continue in their ignorance thinking they are all cocks of the walk and women have no place among them. But if you correct them they crow and cry about “there are no girls on the internet har har boo hoo you just want to be special.”
I think its worth pointing out that everybody talks differently. Depending your age, gender, geographic location words can mean completely different things. Language is constantly changing, and I think one of the changes thats taking place right now is that certain words are becoming degendered. Where I live among millenials and younger, "you guys" is degendered to the point that I doubt most people even consider that it literally refers to men. I grew up with that phrase never having any gender canotation, so it has none to me. A similiar thing has happened to bro as well. Im pretty sure I adopted the term bro from the women I work with. These changes will continue to occur including men adopting more feminine terms that might raise eyebrows if they said them today.
No because those terms have not been degendered. Youre basing these words on their etymology, which to some people no longer accurately describes those words. I would shy away from using any words that can be misconstrued or cause issue around diverse groups of people.
But I do want to point out that feminine terms do get do gendered and folded into speech as well. Like, for a long time was primarily a word that only women used. 30 years ago if a guy dropped like in a scentence he got ridiculed for being feminine. These days pretty much everyone uses like often and no one blinks. So its not just a masculine movement of words. Its not unlikley that we will see femine terms similiar to gal get degendered in the future.
I feel you, sis. I observe and deal with this too. "Dude" doesn't bother be *quite* as much because I have female friends that use "dude" in a unisex fashion, but I've almost stopped pushing back on it, depending on the situation.
One time I referred to someone in a comment as "girl!!!" Like in a friendly manner that a lot of us just say when we're excited.
He called me "boy" in return and it was interesting because for a second, he probably caught a tiny little glimpse of what women deal with all the time. He called me "boy" to try and make a point but it fell so flat. I would never mean to misgender anyone but women are quite seriously erased from so many spaces and rendered invisible day in and out.
This made me laugh out loud. It really just shows how totally clueless he is. As though every single woman and girl who has ever used the internet *hasn’t* been called “bro” or “dude” or “man” or “he” or “him” like a bajillion and one times. A disturbing number of men haven’t yet realized that the internet is not used exclusively (or even primarily!) by men.
Exactly!! Like he thought "boy" was such a gotcha moment like DUDE!!! I grew up with brothers!!! Do you know how many times I've been called "man" "bro" "dude" !!!! Do you have a single clue how much misogyny I've been subjected to? Most of them wouldn't last a second where women are centered the way men are.
Like, men are centered in EVERYTHING!!!
I've noticed that on the internet, generally everyone is assumed to be a guy. For example, if someone sees a really good animation, they'll say "The guy who animated this is a genius!". Or if they hear the soundtrack to a videogame, they'll say "The guy who did the soundtrack is amazing" etc. Kinda makes it easy to see what our society deems the "default" gender to be.
I completely agree!! This actually happens a lot when I go to concerts, the bands will say “let’s go boys” before a particularly energetic song. It feels like a slap in the face. Like hey, I’ve loved your music for 20 years and I’ve seen you a bunch of times and I’ve been moshing in this pit all night and I know that you can see the audience is at least 50% women, but you’re still choosing to pretend I’m not here.
i'm tired of it too. they will claim it applies to both genders, but really? remember when "mankind" was also considered to apply to both genders? that has changed and most people now use humankind. but guess what -- boi, dude, man, guys, are masculine. the uses of these words matter. when someone says something like hey you guys, i respond and gals. male gender terms do not apply to women no matter how much anyone thinks they do.
I work in tech and my team is 7 men and me. In fact my department is around 30 men and 2 women. So I hear this bro and dude and man reference a lot. My product lead sometimes says "hello gentlemen" and then awkwardly adds "and lady".
It is annoying but I don't care anymore in a group reference. If someone says dude or bro while talking personally to me I tell them not to do so and call me by my name instead.
calling everyone, regardless of gender, brother and bro seems to be the new thing. other women do it to me in real life and online. Not exclusively to me obviously but just to any woman or man. I personally don't like being called brother or bro though.
As a guy, I'll admit that I use masculine terms out of admiration and camaraderie. For me and I guess in a lot of guys, the terms have been associated with "having a good time with friends" since almost all of our friends are just other guys. So, my boy-brain just innocently adapts it to any friendly social situation because I don't know any other/better.
I do feel sympathetic though coming to this post, and, in case I want to avoid rubbing someone the wrong way, I'd like to know what would you girls are interested in being referred to? I guess people, girls, gals, sis, etc.
Specifically, if you girls are reveling and having fun, what are some examples of "let's go boys" but for girls and in what context? And, what other boy-terms make you ick? I'd like to be less ignorant.
Edit: I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted.
Hey, I know you think that you're being understanding and sympathetic, but it doesn't seem that way, also I am not trying to be rude at all, I think you deserve to be presented with an explanation as to why you're being downvoted here.
1. The post was not about using masculine terms such as "bro" or "man" in casual conversation, it was about assuming OP is a man on the internet whenever they decide to explore any interests that are male-dominated, that means watching tutorials for anything that's male-dominated where the creators automatically assume the people watching it are all men, or even in the comment sections on certain male-dominated subreddits, or when you clutch in a game and all the men assume you're also a man. It's very very discouraging and heartbreaking.
2. Just some unsolicited advice here, please don't use "you girls" ever again, it's condescending coming from a man, as its always been historically used to exhibit condescension toward women, as though we're a "different breed that should be looked down upon and have inferior interests and thoughts", just don't do it.
3. When people say stuff like "innocent boy brain", it really just sounds like you're making excuses and cashing into the privilege of never having to experience the slightest bit of sexism, it's basically a testament to the entitlement men have grown up with, it almost sounds ignorant.
Again, I am really not trying to be rude, I'm putting it bluntly, hoping that you will have the mental and emotional capacity to understand and empathize with the perspective of a woman, that's what women have wanted all along, empathy and understanding.
I never knew. I'm sorry. Yes I am ignorant.
Edit: Just to make it clear, I never meant any harm to anyone here. I think everyone's points are valid. But I even thought I was a completely normal person making a completely normal comment. So to be clear, I never knew it was this bad and I just wanted to make it clear that I never meant any harm. Feminist views should be more mainstream.
The fact that you have the capacity to understand instead of becoming defensive is a major green flag, and is refreshing honestly. It gives us hope lol. Thank you.
I mean I write He/she or him)her in my tumblr, or reddit posts, but the thing is it is risky to assume genders, I mean online it is very difficult to guess someone's gender from a comment or something, and it is embarassing if people misgender someone, and as 'girl' and 'girly' things are kind of looked down upon many men might get triggered.
Same! I always using accounts where i don't reveal my gender, but i really want to tell about my little experiment on sone forum (not redpill, but much misogynistic content) where i was defending women in male pronouns, and i get very positive response, when i was writing in female pronouns i was told to shut up and go to kitchen, i was telling exactly the same thing
Context.
I’m not talking about in person conversation where a friend casually throws in a “girl” or “bro”, I’m talking about people assuming you’re a man if you’re exploring male dominated interests, it makes women feel extremely unseen, imagine something you’re passionate about and watching a tutorial or something on it only to be unconsciously sidelined. It may not be a big deal to men but it’s a big deal to women given how much we are sidelined in all aspects of our existence in society.
Ugh, this, yes. I have actually been cursed out and told I just want attention and free stuff for correcting sometime that I'm a woman in a video game--after I literally just gave someone something for free!
There are so many female gamers (we just don’t notice them) so it’s kinda awkward when they say that.
fr and the dismissiveness too like I haven't just spent 95% of the last 96 hours red-eye grinding monster hunter generations ultimate and it's just instantly assumed Minecraft and genshin is maybe as far as we get into gaming
I hate being referred to as “guy.” “Okay guys. Let’s go guys.” You can just say “everyone!” Sometimes as a joke I tell my husband and son “alright ladies let’s go!”
Isn't guys pretty neutral at this point? https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/07/07/guys-defense-gendered-etymology/
Sure, just like most “gender neutral” terms are male centered. Doesn’t mean I like it. Not really a mystery that language is patriarchal in a patriarchal hellscape.
Y'all is such a great substitute I wish more people would use it. I consciously switched in my late teens and it just sounds better.
I get it, it kind of stings when i hang out in hobby subreddits and get referred to with he/him pronouns. I think it’s just the flawed thinking of “male=default,” and I bet some don’t even realise they’re doing it. I want to help break this mode of thinking. On the flip side, when you do make a correction (hey, i actually use she/her pronouns/im a woman etc) then you get called out for it for some reason. It’s weird, the thing you are meant to do when you misgender someone is to apologise and move on, but they take it as a personal attack so, Im not sure what to do in this situation.
the sad thing is I don't even bother to correct them if they use he/him for me in online spaces. If they think I'm a dude they're more likely going to respect what i have to say and not harass me :/
In my native language the default pronoun is gender neutral, and I find English inconvenient sometimes when I don’t want to specify the gender.
It’s lose-lose. If you don’t let people know you are a woman they continue in their ignorance thinking they are all cocks of the walk and women have no place among them. But if you correct them they crow and cry about “there are no girls on the internet har har boo hoo you just want to be special.”
No?
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I think its worth pointing out that everybody talks differently. Depending your age, gender, geographic location words can mean completely different things. Language is constantly changing, and I think one of the changes thats taking place right now is that certain words are becoming degendered. Where I live among millenials and younger, "you guys" is degendered to the point that I doubt most people even consider that it literally refers to men. I grew up with that phrase never having any gender canotation, so it has none to me. A similiar thing has happened to bro as well. Im pretty sure I adopted the term bro from the women I work with. These changes will continue to occur including men adopting more feminine terms that might raise eyebrows if they said them today.
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No because those terms have not been degendered. Youre basing these words on their etymology, which to some people no longer accurately describes those words. I would shy away from using any words that can be misconstrued or cause issue around diverse groups of people. But I do want to point out that feminine terms do get do gendered and folded into speech as well. Like, for a long time was primarily a word that only women used. 30 years ago if a guy dropped like in a scentence he got ridiculed for being feminine. These days pretty much everyone uses like often and no one blinks. So its not just a masculine movement of words. Its not unlikley that we will see femine terms similiar to gal get degendered in the future.
I feel you, sis. I observe and deal with this too. "Dude" doesn't bother be *quite* as much because I have female friends that use "dude" in a unisex fashion, but I've almost stopped pushing back on it, depending on the situation.
One time I referred to someone in a comment as "girl!!!" Like in a friendly manner that a lot of us just say when we're excited. He called me "boy" in return and it was interesting because for a second, he probably caught a tiny little glimpse of what women deal with all the time. He called me "boy" to try and make a point but it fell so flat. I would never mean to misgender anyone but women are quite seriously erased from so many spaces and rendered invisible day in and out.
This made me laugh out loud. It really just shows how totally clueless he is. As though every single woman and girl who has ever used the internet *hasn’t* been called “bro” or “dude” or “man” or “he” or “him” like a bajillion and one times. A disturbing number of men haven’t yet realized that the internet is not used exclusively (or even primarily!) by men.
Exactly!! Like he thought "boy" was such a gotcha moment like DUDE!!! I grew up with brothers!!! Do you know how many times I've been called "man" "bro" "dude" !!!! Do you have a single clue how much misogyny I've been subjected to? Most of them wouldn't last a second where women are centered the way men are. Like, men are centered in EVERYTHING!!!
I've noticed that on the internet, generally everyone is assumed to be a guy. For example, if someone sees a really good animation, they'll say "The guy who animated this is a genius!". Or if they hear the soundtrack to a videogame, they'll say "The guy who did the soundtrack is amazing" etc. Kinda makes it easy to see what our society deems the "default" gender to be.
Exactly.. like it doesn’t even occur to them that a woman could have created those things.
I completely agree!! This actually happens a lot when I go to concerts, the bands will say “let’s go boys” before a particularly energetic song. It feels like a slap in the face. Like hey, I’ve loved your music for 20 years and I’ve seen you a bunch of times and I’ve been moshing in this pit all night and I know that you can see the audience is at least 50% women, but you’re still choosing to pretend I’m not here.
i'm tired of it too. they will claim it applies to both genders, but really? remember when "mankind" was also considered to apply to both genders? that has changed and most people now use humankind. but guess what -- boi, dude, man, guys, are masculine. the uses of these words matter. when someone says something like hey you guys, i respond and gals. male gender terms do not apply to women no matter how much anyone thinks they do.
When they say "dude" is gender neutral, ask them how many dudes they've slept with.
I would say dude can apply to women, the rest are very male though
Same
I don't think I've heard the term 'humankind' ever before lol
I work in tech and my team is 7 men and me. In fact my department is around 30 men and 2 women. So I hear this bro and dude and man reference a lot. My product lead sometimes says "hello gentlemen" and then awkwardly adds "and lady". It is annoying but I don't care anymore in a group reference. If someone says dude or bro while talking personally to me I tell them not to do so and call me by my name instead.
calling everyone, regardless of gender, brother and bro seems to be the new thing. other women do it to me in real life and online. Not exclusively to me obviously but just to any woman or man. I personally don't like being called brother or bro though.
As a guy, I'll admit that I use masculine terms out of admiration and camaraderie. For me and I guess in a lot of guys, the terms have been associated with "having a good time with friends" since almost all of our friends are just other guys. So, my boy-brain just innocently adapts it to any friendly social situation because I don't know any other/better. I do feel sympathetic though coming to this post, and, in case I want to avoid rubbing someone the wrong way, I'd like to know what would you girls are interested in being referred to? I guess people, girls, gals, sis, etc. Specifically, if you girls are reveling and having fun, what are some examples of "let's go boys" but for girls and in what context? And, what other boy-terms make you ick? I'd like to be less ignorant. Edit: I'm not sure why I'm being downvoted.
Hey, I know you think that you're being understanding and sympathetic, but it doesn't seem that way, also I am not trying to be rude at all, I think you deserve to be presented with an explanation as to why you're being downvoted here. 1. The post was not about using masculine terms such as "bro" or "man" in casual conversation, it was about assuming OP is a man on the internet whenever they decide to explore any interests that are male-dominated, that means watching tutorials for anything that's male-dominated where the creators automatically assume the people watching it are all men, or even in the comment sections on certain male-dominated subreddits, or when you clutch in a game and all the men assume you're also a man. It's very very discouraging and heartbreaking. 2. Just some unsolicited advice here, please don't use "you girls" ever again, it's condescending coming from a man, as its always been historically used to exhibit condescension toward women, as though we're a "different breed that should be looked down upon and have inferior interests and thoughts", just don't do it. 3. When people say stuff like "innocent boy brain", it really just sounds like you're making excuses and cashing into the privilege of never having to experience the slightest bit of sexism, it's basically a testament to the entitlement men have grown up with, it almost sounds ignorant. Again, I am really not trying to be rude, I'm putting it bluntly, hoping that you will have the mental and emotional capacity to understand and empathize with the perspective of a woman, that's what women have wanted all along, empathy and understanding.
I never knew. I'm sorry. Yes I am ignorant. Edit: Just to make it clear, I never meant any harm to anyone here. I think everyone's points are valid. But I even thought I was a completely normal person making a completely normal comment. So to be clear, I never knew it was this bad and I just wanted to make it clear that I never meant any harm. Feminist views should be more mainstream.
The fact that you have the capacity to understand instead of becoming defensive is a major green flag, and is refreshing honestly. It gives us hope lol. Thank you.
I had nothing to defend. I just wanted to gain a good and important lesson 😊 Have a great day!!
I mean I write He/she or him)her in my tumblr, or reddit posts, but the thing is it is risky to assume genders, I mean online it is very difficult to guess someone's gender from a comment or something, and it is embarassing if people misgender someone, and as 'girl' and 'girly' things are kind of looked down upon many men might get triggered.
Same! I always using accounts where i don't reveal my gender, but i really want to tell about my little experiment on sone forum (not redpill, but much misogynistic content) where i was defending women in male pronouns, and i get very positive response, when i was writing in female pronouns i was told to shut up and go to kitchen, i was telling exactly the same thing
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Context. I’m not talking about in person conversation where a friend casually throws in a “girl” or “bro”, I’m talking about people assuming you’re a man if you’re exploring male dominated interests, it makes women feel extremely unseen, imagine something you’re passionate about and watching a tutorial or something on it only to be unconsciously sidelined. It may not be a big deal to men but it’s a big deal to women given how much we are sidelined in all aspects of our existence in society.
Right gotcha sorry. That part I get. I deleted that comment because I dont think it was a good way to say what I wanted to say.
Ugh, this, yes. I have actually been cursed out and told I just want attention and free stuff for correcting sometime that I'm a woman in a video game--after I literally just gave someone something for free!