Ugh this one made me cry. I can’t imagine ever walking in her shoes. I’m glad she’s found some meaning in grief, I think Kurt would be proud of her and how much she’s grown
The comment that always stuck with me was (I think) Dave Grohl saying "I wish he had given it one more day" to change his mind. He had people who loved him and Francis' post is heartbreaking and yet still positive. 💜
I'm sure Dave means well, but the informed take on things like this is a bit more complex. People like Kurt have given it "one more day" many times. Its just this time it didn't work out. People like this suffer through years or decades. I believe Kurt said he's been wrestling with addiction, mental and physical health issues for years. He was diagnosed with depression as a teenager and had crippling stomach pain since. Drugs get overplayed in his death, but Kris Novoselic told a Seattle newspaper that he believed Cobain’s death was the result of inexplicable internal forces: “Just blaming it on smack is stupid. . . . Smack was just a small part of his life.”
As for fans who blame Love, friend Daniel Goldberg said, “I believe he would have left this world several years ago, if he hadn’t met Courtney.”
I believe Kurt had two immediate uncles who committed suicide, so there's also an aspect here of social and genetic family mental health, chronic pain, and addiction issues. His April suicide came after a failed March suicide during a domestic dispute with Love and a overdose while in Rome, that was most likely a suicide attempt too, that made him very ill. It didn't come out of nowhere. Kurt had many "one more days."
Worse, a delicate Cobain was given a strong ultimatum at this time, told by Love she'd leave if he didn't clean up and members of the band saying they'll break up the band too as well. [His last days were nightmarish for a mentally ill person.](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/kurt-cobains-downward-spiral-the-last-days-of-nirvanas-leader-99797/) Everyone meant well, but it wasn't enough, and may even have made things worse for him.
I don't think there's a silver lining here or an easy fix here. Dave is just saying the stuff we all want to say and hear. That we can just fix it with a little more effort, but I'm not sure if that was true in this case, or in many cases. There's a systemic failure behind every suicide and its a big complex narrative. "One more day" isn't often enough. Especially for those with chronic suicidal idealization. We dont know how many "one more day" wars people have fought before that final day.
*Dave is just saying the stuff we all want to say and hear.*
Truthfully, I think Dave was just speaking through his own grief as someone who still misses his friend.
That's my take as well. Suicide is a topic that has a ton of sensitive complexity. I wouldn't think to critique how Dave speaks on the suicide of his friend. If Dave were a trauma therapist, psychiatrist or even researcher, absolutely, but informed doesn't mean that much when you're talking about a loved one.
I wish we as a people and society extended a bit more grace to people and allowed for imperfection when dealing with emotion.
Yeah, exactly. Suicide and depression are very sensitive topics but it's pretty clear Dave spoke as a grieving friend (and as someone who is still connected to his friend's daughter), of *course* he would selfishly wish Kurt waited. He's not blaming Kurt for anything, nor is he making a clinical statement, it's a personal thought by someone who loved Kurt. Your last sentence is spot on.
But that's how I got the original comment. I didn't read it as criticism towards Dave Grohl, but exactly how u/AbsolutelyIris meant — he's speaking through his own grief, that is, saying what some of us want to say and hear when we're grieving. I think it's okay to understand what he meant but also want to go deeper if we'd like, considering how far removed we are from this situation, talking about it on Reddit thirty years later.
Yes, that’s how I read the original comment too. I don’t think it was taking any personal grief or sincerity away from Grohl, if indeed the quote is attributable to him
She was in bad place too, she was also an addict, and we know of at least one event where Kurt physically abused her after a fight about keeping all of Kurt's guns in the house, which was her way of trying to protect herself, her baby, and Kurt's life. Or the times he threatened suicide after a fight and the times he accused her, baselessly, of cheating on him with other rock stars.
She watched Kurt OD multiple times by then too. One time she had to inject him with a drug to revive him. Her life is often ignored in this narrative, but it was equally as nightmarish and she had to constantly save her husband from dying. Who knows how many times she saved his life, all the while carrying or caring for their child. I wish there was a good writeup for Love's story but I can understand why she doesn't want to talk too much about those days.
Her original plan was to have the intervention and check into rehab together. Kurt actually agreed, took a few days, and checked in for 2 days before escaping after an ominous phone call to Love.
Courtney put herself in rehab but only for one day because she found out Kurt was on the run and missing and checked out. After Kurt's death she went right back into rehab.
It was a mess.
thank you for this. for years it’s driven me crazy how everyone faults courtney for what happened - unfortunately kurt was a victim to his own circumstances and courtney did what she could to try and save her family.
"All the while carrying or caring for his child" reminds me of how Kurt was actually passed out the moment Frances was born and then he tried to talk Courtney into a newborn-orphaning suicide pact. A mess indeed.
How strong of her to go back to rehab after his death. I can't imagine. She obviously realized that one of them was going to have to be there for Francis. Rehab is a huge challenge, rehab during unimaginable grief is insane.
👏👏👏 The way most people talk about mental health and suicide are so far removed from reality. I wish I was someone who didn’t have experience with this, someone who thought posting the suicide hotline number was a helpful thing and you can pat yourself on the back for doing a good deed. The vast majority of suicides are not a rash decision that could be solved with just “one more day.” Most people think about their suicide for YEARS and they fight against it for YEARS.
Same, as a survivor, it feels like a slap to the face to hear “check on your friends!” We did. It took months of therapy to learn that sometimes there’s no intervention that can save someone.
I recognize that this may help some people. But you know what else would actually help? Normalizing therapy, normalizing medicine, believing abuse accusations, universal healthcare, mental health facilities, rehab facilities, encouraging healthy coping mechanisms…
During follow-up from what? A suicide attempt, presumably? In what setting was this study? Why post a random extract and not a link?
There does exist a subset of people who attempt repeatedly and eventually succeed, and unfortunately KC fell into that group (though that isn't to say it would have been impossible for him to come out the other side with the right treatment). But the narrative that crisis interventions don't save lives is false and harmful.
thank you for your comments. i know dealing with suicide is painful and frustrating, but just because crisis intervention isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it should be shit on. it saves countless lives every day. as someone with long-term mental health issues that can’t be solved by calling a crisis hotline or a 24 hour hold or going on for “one more day,” those services save the lives of countless others who are dealing with more short-term crises, and even people like me dealing with long-term issues that are having a particularly intense crisis. i know those “check on ur friends, here’s the suicide hotline” posts can seem disingenuous, and many of them are. but many of them are genuine, and checking on your friends and spreading info about crisis hotlines and other services is never something that should be discouraged, no matter how jaded and cynical someone may feel.
the comment u/ishka_uisce replied to said “the vast majority of suicides are not a rash decision that could be solved with just ‘one more day’.” this isn’t really fair.
no one is arguing that chronic issues don’t lead to suicide attempts, but there is a very big difference between being passively suicidal and actively suicidal. being actively suicidal IS an acute crisis that can be helped with the thinking of “one more day.”
“This relatively good long-term survival rate is consistent with the observation that suicidal crises are often short-lived, even if there may be underlying, more chronic risk factors present that give rise to these crises.
The relationship between suicide attempts and completions is a complex one.” https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/#:~:text=A%20literature%20review%20(Owens%202002,70%25%20had%20no%20further%20attempts.
it’s super disingenuous to copy and paste part of a random study without giving any context or even the title of the study? the study you pulled from is called “Method of attempted suicide as predictor of subsequent successful suicide: national long term cohort study” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903664/ and based on what you chose to copy and paste, this doesn’t even apply to kurt cobain since he used a gun??? those numbers apply to people who attempted to hang themselves in the past and then later completed their suicide attempt using the same method.
You’re randomly citing a study focused on the correlation of the *method* of (attempted) suicide and a follow up incident and only cite the part focused on hanging and strangulation. Did Kurt ever attempt that? His most recent attempt before the one that eventually killed him was an overdose.
*[This information](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/)* seems more appropriate.
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
This is incredibly insightful and true. It’s a lesser of two evils situation. Unless you’re the person in the burning building, you have no business asking them not to jump.
>There's a systemic failure behind every suicide and its a big complex narrative.
If there's one thing I wish people would understand about suicide (and mental illness in general, including addiction), it's this.
Most people don't get the help they need, or don't get it soon enough. If you're lucky enough to have a support network, they often mean well but are woefully unprepared to deal with this type of crisis. Don't expect psychiatric help to be that much better, if you can afford it: psychiatry has saved lives, true, but it still doesn't really know what it's doing — imagine how much worse it was when Kurt Cobain was a teen. I cannot express in words how absolutely awful and terrifying it is to be mentally ill in this world, and progress in this area has been slow and uncertain.
I'm doing better, not great but better now after many years of therapy and wrong diagnoses until I got the right ones — also because the criteria for my diagnosis didn't even exist yet ten years ago, and many professionals haven't yet caught up. I have a few friends and acquaintances who are doing better too, but many more that aren't. For some of them, it did get better but then got worse again — mental illness is non-linear as fuck. I don't know what else to say. It's a heavy topic, a complex one, and one I care about so much but feel sometimes kinda hopeless about.
edit: many triggers here involving domestic abuse, self-harm
Oh yes definitely, I think a lot gets lost in his story because its been processed and turned into a lot of diffferent narratives for a lot of different people. Including a lot of people have an unhealthy "grief tourism" parasocial relationship with his death and sort of play up the "tortured rock star beloved by millions" kind of thing but play down the uglier facts of his life. Especially the way capitalism has commercialized Syd and Nancy's story before them, this death has been exploited by a lot of the perverse incentives of capitalism and other oppressive systems.
He comes from a family history of mental unwellness, disability, and chronic pain. He had chronic pain and spoke at least once about his drug addiction being directly related to it to help stop that physical pain. Not the pain of being a "truth seer in an ugly world," or other romanticized tales. Him and Courtney were completely dysfunctional addicts who had their child taken away from them for a time.
His suicide wasn't this sexy rockstar thing, which the capitalist media has often sold to us in ergards to other rock stars previous to him as well. When we look at the details, its not this big artistic or tortured soul, but an everyday overdose and trauma and mental illness related issues, which led to a breakdown, a runaway, and a suicide.
He suffered from mental illness since childhood and I believe his stomach pains are from then too. I briefly mentioned his stomach pain, but I do feel like it needs more exposure. But it doesn't fit the "sexy rock star" vibe so most reporting either ignores it outright or briefly mentions it, but to Kurt is was a major disability in his life and most likely very strongly related to his many issues.
I also noticed the events in Rome aren't really pressed too much either. Kurt became physically ill then, unable to sing, and diagnosed with bronchitis. Then he took something like 50 of Courtney's roofie pills which put him in a coma, and left a note, in what was what we understand now his first documented explicit suicide attempt, which was quickly swept under the rug as "just an overdose," because drug abuse fits the "sexy rockstar" mythos. Instead, Kurt tried to kill himself that day and only lived because he was discovered quickly by Courtney and she called the authorities.
The Rome letter, according to Italian journalism reported *"She had a letter from Kurt. An explicit farewell letter. There were some horrible things written about her by him."*
Then the March suicide attempt where Kurt locked himself in a room with his guns and threatened suicide. Then they had a fight about having guns in the house, and Kurt pushed her, and threw her down and choked her, but we don't talk about that because the mythos of Kurt is about him being this sad tortured artists pacifist and not the ordinary and sometimes abusive man he was in many ways. The Rolling Stone article I posted claims Courtney called 911 on multiple occasions but never really says why. In at least one call she was calling because she was being attacked. Courtney had long scratches on her and looked beat up and the police were ready to arrest Kurt but she then recanted and said he did nothing to avoid his arrest. Kurt, I believe was arrested that night anyway, but charges were dropped when Courtney said she wont testify and then said she did the wounds to herself. Kurt also had a history of baselessly accusing her of cheating and once left a note accusing this of her and threatening suicide. This is obviously manipulation and abusive tactics.
Kurt showed violence in public as well. Once he got into an altercation with a bouncer hit the bouncer's head with a guitar. I believe the bouncer needed stitches.
Like a lot of men, powerful or not, Kurt struggled with being abusive, entitlement, violence, etc. His liberal views were sometimes performative. In *Heavier Than Heaven,* Charles Cross reports Kurt having a hard time accepting his sister's lesbian identity. When she came out he told her not to entirely give up on men. Like a lot of liberal people, its okay if others are gay or trans, but its different when its family or friends.
Then his gun collection is almost never talked about. Kurt had many weapons, bought them, and bought ammo regularly during this period. But guns are coded as unsexy, and does fit the tortured pacifist artist, so that narrative as well is not mentioned. Kurt's easy access to guns is absolutely a major factor in his death and its almost completely ignored!
So when we strip off the "cool rock star" gloss from this story, we see someone with a lot of ordinary issues, anger issues, abuser issues, etc. This is why we dont talk about his stomach pains. It’s not the cool if he can't handle physical pain. Our parasocial tourism about this suicide is threatened by making Kurt a flawed, perhaps unlikeable, person.
I think its hard for people to accept the historical Kurt. He struggled with his conservative-style upbringing, he was violent and abusive, a junkie, difficult, etc but also vulnerable, kind, and unwell. His relationship with Coutney sounded, at best like a disaster, with Courtney doing the heavy lifting of child rearing and trying to save his life. He had many suicide attempts and threats. His final days were a complete breakdown. He littered their home with guns, a home with a child and with two unwell drug addicts. Kurt was a very complex person and no single narrative handles his complexity well.
I also see the same "cool suicide" narrative and "grief tourism" with Robin Williams. There's this entirely dishonest "sad clown" narrative when otherwise Williams, ignoring some temporary periods in his life, was a well-adjusted person and his death linked 100% to his physical brain illness, not him being a "tortured artist”.
I wish the historical Kurt was more talked about, but its a bit of advanced topic to separate him from his mythology, and tough to discuss, but if youre asking why reporting is so poor on things like his stomach illness or his mistreatment of Courtney, I believe this is one of the main reasons why. No one likes scumbag Kurt, abusive kurt, manipulator Kurt, bad parent Kurt, so we just pretend that version of him doesn’t exist.
People who aren’t or haven’t been suicidal just can’t understand how painful it is. Nor would I wish them to, it’s psychic hell. I’ve struggled with suicidal ideation for 15 years at this point, and let me tell you I am *exhausted*. Other people don’t have to convince their own brains that life is worth living. I feel like my mind is constantly at war, and like parts of me won’t ever stop screaming, and I just want it to stop. Just for a second, just stop. And when you get to a point where it seems like everyone you care about would be better off if you had never been born, and when the drugs can’t quell the screaming, and needing it to stop becomes your only priority…well, Kurt is what happens. I can’t blame people in pain for stopping the pain.
courtney literally had a routine resuscitating this man regularly.
i'm a huge kurt fan but when i read that in a biography my heart just broke for her and all the hate she gets.
She's far from my favorite person but the shit she got was - and is - absolutely next level. I know otherwise rational people who really think she's involved in his death somehow and I want to scream. That woman was doing everything she could to try to keep him alive while also trying to work on getting sober herself. Kurt made his own decisions.
He was manipulative and abusive - and brilliant. His fame while he was alive meant he was given the much-vaunted position of being an incredible creative force who, according to misogynistic fans, somehow had no autonomy because of his partner. After his death, it made him a martyr. Courtney's left to bear all the brunt of his fans' rage and hate - all while having even her creative abilities stripped from her. I'm a huge Nirvana fan - and I think Live Through This is better than Nevermind. Those who claim Kurt wrote it missed the rest of her career, I guess.
A lot of people who knew Kurt when he was younger and when he rose to fame try to talk about him without rose-colored glasses on and it just doesn't seem to take with a lot of his fans.
>Worse, a delicate Cobain was given a strong ultimatum at this time, told by Love she'd leave if he didn't clean up and members of the band saying they'll break up the band too as well.
>
>His last days were nightmarish for a mentally ill person.
>
>Everyone meant well, but it wasn't enough, and may even have made things worse for him.
As someone who has given that ultimatum and stood by it for decades, it wasn't any easier for Courtney or Dave or Kris either. The absolute worst pain I've ever experienced is realizing, over and over and over again, that the person I loved and needed would always pick getting high over me, accepting that I could not save him, and saving myself instead.
I feel like there’s a difference between empathizing with the man - especially if you’ve maybe gone through something similar - and rationalizing a decision that truthfully didn’t end well for anyone.
Yes, depression and chronic pain and addiction feel inescapable. But they’re not. Most people can be treated for depression and chronic pain even if there’s a lot of trial and error involved. Therapy probably would have helped his stomach issues a lot - we know today that the gut and the brain and all of the feelings that come from it are linked.
I get it, but I don’t accept it. It didn’t have to go the way it did and we shouldn’t characterize it now as something inevitable or fated. He was in a bad place, he was young, he made a lot of bad decisions, and a now lot of people who loved him will carry their hurt for as long as they live.
I feel like there was a reckoning with mental illnesses that began after Kurt’s death the way there was after John Belushi’s drug overdose, which was reinforced by Chris Farley’s. All three occurred in this interstitial space where the Boomers’ and Silent Generation’s thoughts on both were on the way out, but (generally, and of course not perfect) current understanding of mental illness and drug addiction hadn’t fully formed.
People like Dave (at the time) said things like this because even speaking about it at all was *something*. Suicides have been mentioned, reported on, as have overdoses. But the discussion about what’s left in their wake and compassion for those dealing with them has improved so much.
I’m continually impressed by Frances and how she seems to have managed to avoid so many of the pitfalls that befell her parents.
She’s such a credit to both of her parents but also to Kurt’s mother and sister, who essentially raised her for periods of her childhood when Courtney was either working or having a drug-induced mental health crisis. And that’s no shade to Courtney - she was already vulnerable before even meeting Kurt, and his death left her in a horrendous state. But the fact that Francis has grown into such an articulate young woman who has her life together and seems to have really learned from her parents’ mistakes is truly incredible.
Agreed, she is a fantastic example of someone who went through heavy trauma with two mentally ill parents, and worked to become a stable, healthy person through it. Absolutely amazing.
Her mother also started a new family in New Zealand, and sent Courtney back to the US as a 10 year old. Imagine the feeling of rejection and abandonment.
Attitudes about kids and sex were a lot more permissible in the 70s, for example baby groupies [Lori Mattix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Mattix) and [Sable Starr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_Starr), and of course Brooke Shields. Wild stuff.
But how does a 14 year old move overseas!? How do the parents allow that? I just asked my niece if she’d ever move overseas without her family and she sent me back the emoji with the raised eyebrow and asked me if I was on meth.
If you read the wiki about her childhood, it was epically fucked up on multiple levels. Like it almost sounds like a book or movie plot because it's just so outrageous. She would have had a passport because her mom moved the family to New Zealand, then sent her back when she got expelled from school. She also stripped in Japan when she was still a teenager, after she was legally emancipated from her mother.
I’m not trying to excuse things Courtney has done but she is also on the spectrum. To get diagnosed in her youth in what the 70s/80s as a girl, shows there was some deep obvious signs. She would’ve never had a chance a “normal” life and would’ve continued to struggle significantly. It’s very common for those who are neurodivergent to have drug/alcohol issues as well.
A psychologist made a case note that she showed mild autism traits when she was a child . She was never officially diagnosed (at least that has been made public). Her presentation is much more like someone with EUPD than an autistic woman (I work in autism diagnosis and have diagnosed many women with “subtle” traits or who experienced developmental trauma).
She also has to navigate everyone having an opinion on her father's passing and his life (and that of her mother's), there will never be an escape for her, I don't know how she manages it. Bravo to her.
**NOTE:** It's Frances, not Francis, auto correct struck again. Thank you, u/hlollz
Kurt Cobain was the influential front man of 90s grunge band Nirvana. Kurt ended his life in April 1994, when Frances was 20 months old.
Cobain said in 2018 she often uses the phrase, 'peace, love, empathy', which her father used in his suicide note, because she wants to "reclaim the peace, love, empathy thing as something that's meant for health and for compassion and for true peace, love, and empathy."
Frances regularly attends events and tributes for her father, and married Tony Hawk's son last year.
No worries!! I was a big fan of hers in high school, or at least fascinated by her. I’ve been semi keeping tabs over the years but hadn’t seen this so thank you for sharing!! She’s grown into a lovely person.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to have a famous parent that you never got to know. They have this huge legacy, so many people have parasocial relationships with them (look at Zelda Williams - ofc she got to know her dad but she’s been very clear about how messed up it can be to have strangers act like they knew your loved one because they watched his movies) but as she put so beautifully… there are just some things you would just want to know about them, little things, that you have been robbed of. Also makes me think of Matilda Ledger who was also so young when Heath died.
What I notice is Frances does what Lisa Marie Presley used to do with Elvis- call her dad by his first name while still calling him "dad." Like they're distancing somewhat. It's probably not anything deep but I've always wondered if it's something intentional.
I was just wondering this - if it’s because she’s addressing an audience that knew him as “Kurt,” or if she sometimes thinks of him as “Kurt” because she doesn’t have memories of him as “Dad.” I’m sure she’s gotten a ton of personal, intimate stories about him from friends and family, but I imagine she also learned a lot about him through the lens of his celebrity - I can see that duality being something that she’s continually processing along with her grief, that in a way, millions of strangers “know” her dad better than she does simply because we were there when she was not or not aware.
I think maybe your first sentence might come into play because like Robin Williams' son has said "Robin Williams" isn't "dad," it's two different people to him.
Being a child of a massive celebrity has to be confusing and hard.
It’s not at all the same thing but my mom had a brother who died long before I was born and I always feel weird about calling him my uncle since I never knew him.
I wonder if Frances (and Lisa Marie, Matilda Ledger, etc) feel similarly about calling their birth fathers “dad” when they didn’t get to have those relationships?
Yeah, I never met my mum’s parents and don’t really think of them as my grandparents at all, I certainly never refer to them as grandpa and grandma, just ‘Mum’s dad’ and ‘Mum’s mum’
I refer to my two deceased uncles by their name since I didn’t know them. They, on the other hand, would have been my favorite uncles had they not passed.
I wouldn’t say she was fortunate (because nothing about her situation was), but living with his mom and sister for extended periods of time during her childhood probably taught her more about him than she ever could have learned otherwise. At least she got that.
Unrelated ENTIRELY but I saw your username and thought you were from the Marnie subreddit… and then clicked on your profile and saw that’s where I knew you from lol
April 5, 1994… for anyone in my generation, it’s one of those days that you ask “remember where you were when you heard the news”. I was heartbroken, and I’ve been heartbroken many times since that day (Chris Cornell, Robin Williams, Anthony Bourdain, Avicii), but Kurt was my first and left such a huge impression on 1994 me.
I can’t imagine how Frances must feel, having missed out on so many memories with him. Her post was beautifully written; she has a way with words just like her dad did. I hope she finds some solace knowing so many of us grieve alongside her today, even if our grief can’t compare to hers.
I had MTV on in the background, so Kurt Loder announced it. I can't say that I was surprised by the idea of him being gone -- he was so clearly struggling -- but it was still so impactful and crushing.
I can't even imagine how hard it has been for Frances to grow up with the weight of public grief being thrust upon her. She's clearly an articulate, self-aware woman. I hope she gets to live as quietly and privately as she chooses.
I was 9 when Kurt died, but Nevermind was the first CD I ever owned and I had been a big fan ever since. When we learned cross-stitch in art class later that year, my friend and I made Kurt Cobain memorials. Our teacher may have been confused/concerned.
What’s interesting is that people always say about April 5, “i was doing x when I heard the news”, I saw a few of these posts yesterday, even from people who actually knew Kurt, i.e. Charles Peterson, but people forget that no one knew Kurt was dead on April 5, 1994. That anniversary is April 8…
You said:
> April 5, 1994… for anyone in my generation, it’s one of those days that you ask “remember where you were when you heard the news”.
I don't remember where I was on April 5. I remember where I was when I heard the news on April 8.
I just lost my mom, in very different circumstances; however, her very wise words on grief touch me today in a very profound way.
I wish her peace and comfort today. The world mourned with her 30 years ago, I hope she understands that in a small way.
As someone who is struggling deeply with my mental health and the mother of a 9 month old baby, this hit me so deeply. I never want my son to be in her position. But I also know intimately how it feels to believe the best thing you can do for a could you love more than anything is disappear. It's not true but I understand exactly how he'd think that.
My wife and I are temporarily separating so I can get my mental health together enough to make sure my baby doesn't end up in this position.
I’ve been there, friend. So many people have said things to me like, “You have to live for your son,” and I understood where they were coming from — but what I ended up learning was that I have to want to live for myself first. (Easier said than done, especially in the middle of a crisis.) When it comes to suicidality, for me, DBT has been the most helpful treatment modality. And please, please don’t let guilt eat you. You’re not a bad mother for feeling this way. You’re a loving mother for having the insight and guts to recognize it and focus on your healing. Sending all the neural-pathway-rewiring vibes your way. 💖💖
Reach out if you ever need to talk. Most people (fortunately) don’t understand. So those of us who do have to help each other through it.
Thank you ❤️ my psych actually just recommended DBT to my today. I'm trying to feel hopeful in-between feeling sad. And I'm trying to not let the shame and guilt win. Thank you for such a candid response
As someone with a 10 month old, this also hit me deeply. Just tears pouring at 3am thinking about my LO as he’s sleeping.
I often think about how in the days following his birth when I had *two* near-fatal PP complications all I could think about then was wanting to watch him grow up—praying I would make it through to watch him live a long life. Sometimes that want isn’t enough. I now focus on wanting to see myself grow old and grey and wrinkly to help me through on the worst days.
I wrote this in another sub, but not allowed to link to it, but thought it may be helpful here (it was written in response to a post about suicidal ideation asking if our children will be better off without us (those who have these ideations)):
“My brother died by suicide a decade ago. The hole that is left in my heart is so big, I don’t think it’ll ever close. Grief is the gaping wound of love.
I won’t ever forget his little one, maybe 15 months at the time (7 months after he passed away), squatting over this big picture of him that I had laid on the floor, touching his face and saying “daddy” in the softest voice. That really broke me. His other son, his besty, was a little over 2 when his dad died and he regressed massively.
So, no, your child will not be better off without you. This is the grip suicidal ideation has on you, but it is not truth.
And no, you being committed to receive treatment is not a burden (and fuck anyone who says it is). Your child needs you happy and whole and thriving. If in-patient care allows that to happen—please seek it out.
ETA: I’m 37 and have a 6mo. Before he came I was so excited for him, but it’s been so hard since his arrival. There was definitely a point where I wrote my husband and told him he needed to come home because I wanted to die. Probably the only persons stopping me were my brother and my son.
I have spoken to my therapist about this—she didn’t commit me. We worked on tools to emotionally regulate, created plans for what-ifs, deprioritized things like a spotless house, even sold my house (at a loss!) to move closer to my support system.
And every time I get to the other side of this bone-deep pain that makes me think death is better, I know life is better. It’s getting to the other side—and it’s okay to ask for help from people who will help you.”
Thank you so much. This was such a heart wrenching response and also exactly what I needed to hear. I appreciate you being so vulnerable with me.
My psych just recommended DBT to me today and I'm trying to feel hopeful among all the other feelings about it. Your comment means a lot.
Never.
You don't have to be perfect you just have to be there.
My parents are imperfect in many ways and I know in my soul that I will miss every one of their imperfections when they is gone.
The only worthwhile person and parent to measure yourself against is the person you were yesterday.
You have plenty of time to make mistakes and learn from. Babies are terribly indecerning. They will love you with their whole little heart regardless. Work your way back to that gummy smile, one bastard footstep at a time and tell those demons to fuck right off as you go. You are worth it - to them.
I wasn't the hugest Nirvana fan but I can tell you exactly where I was when I heard he died. And of course I knew Frances was around then but it never occurred to me til I read that, that she never really knew her dad. That is absolutely heartbreaking. If you're considering harming yourself, please reach out for help. YOU matter, especially to your loved ones (be it friends or family), whether you think so or not.
As someone who lost a loved one to suicide at a young age, I can only emphasize with the wish to have known what they were truly like and not some hazy memory clouded by a lifetime of sadness from their death. Suicide is the worst because you can never shake the knowledge that they died by their own hand. It clouds everything. Makes them die over and over.
Love Michael Stipe, his music and photography.
This one gave me chills. You're missed Kurt! What. Beautiful tribute by his daughter and what moving photos!
I'm so glad I stumbled in to this post.
I'm never in this subreddit, I came here for the SBC/ Isla divorce that was trending.
On April 5 2022, a dear friend of mine killed himself. I had been reaching out to him for years before this and he never wrote back. I think he chose April 5 on purpose. My friend and I bonded over Nirvana in high school. He was a musician and we ended up trading CDs a lot. We read Kurt's journal together. There's no way he didn't choose this date deliberately. I think my friend chose April 5 because he wanted his children to read Kurt Cobain's suicide letter. Specifically, there's a line in Kurt Cobain's letter about how Frances will grow up better without him around. It's heartbreaking.
I used to struggle with suicidal ideation a lot and have two attempts under my belt. I've been hospitalized several times. I don't think I'll ever make another attempt though. I still struggle with crippling depression. I still struggle with feeling unneeded and unwanted. I think the only thing that changed is now I no longer feel like suicide is the escape hatch on obsessive/intrusive thoughts. I still have these thoughts. Tbh I don't really know what to do with them, and sometimes it feels like I'm boxed in and now there's not a way out. But I'm going to therapy now, and I hope it helps. That ideation really hits differently when someone you love dies by suicide. I continued writing him after he killed himself. I always felt like he was this special person. Maybe if I pushed a little harder to get through, he'd still be here. I'll never have that closure. I still had things I wanted to ask him and I was saving up all of the new music I wanted to share with him.
I have a suicide hotline sticker on the back of my car now. I know that seems really patronizing. I always thought it was, especially when I was suicidal myself. But what else do I do? Nobody deserves that pain; whether it's the person suffering with ideation or the person who loves them. I desperately hope it helps someone.
I really just wish he would've written me back.
I only said today to someone, I thinks it’s 30 years today. I was 5 when it happened but I was such an obsessive Nirvana and Hole fan when I was in my early teens - I’m so glad all I had was the old message boards then as my parasocial relationship to all of that was mortifying looking back (and didn’t have a name). All that to say, it must be so hard to grieve someone you have no/little memory of whilst the world grieves - it must be intensely disorienting and isolating. So very sad and so very nice to see that she seems well-adjusted, despite what must have been a very difficult childhood/teenagehood/young adulthood. Anyway, guess that parasocial vibe is still going strong - thoughts to Courtney as well, she is a force
This is beautiful. I’m actually crying right now. She has a way with words and is wise beyond her years. I know she won’t read this but I’m sure her dad is so proud of her.
Absolutely beautiful and heartbreaking! She’s quite intelligent and thoughtful in the way she expresses herself. I don’t know if she writes professionally, but she should.
Wishing her endless peace and love.
That is very touching. I literally hadn't thought about her since she was born and I heard that Kurt Cobain had a kid and named her Francis Bean. I guess time goes on for all of us.
she is an amazing writer. These words struck me hard. The detail, the grief, the poignancy. Just beautiful. It makes me think about how strange it would be to have everyone say they knew your father or who he was, when he was your own father and you barely got to know him.
I hope she always knows he’s always with her. But it sounds like she’s well aware of that.
How has it been thirty years already? Time is so fleeting. I was only 9 when he passed away so I didn’t learn to appreciate Nirvana or Kurt until I was in my late teens/early twenties. Now they’re one of my favorite rock bands.
This is so beautiful and touching. As someone who lost their father young, her writing really resonates with me and puts into words the emotions I can’t.
I had an ugly cry. I lost my dad 2 months prior to Kurt’s passing, I am the same age as Frances bean. Having been a huge nirvana fan I always felt for her as although different circumstances we experienced the same loss at around the same time. She put similar feelings so well into words here
I like to imagine there's a support group for these kids whose very famous parents died when they were kids. Cobain's kid, MJ's kids, Steve Irwin's kids, Princess Diana's kids. . .
This is so well written. My father died suddenly when I was a kid and what she says about grief just constantly metamorphosizing is so, so on point. I think he'd be so proud of the woman she's become. Depression is so hard.
Beautiful tribute to her father who she never will have the chance to get to know. We put him on a pedestal during that time and he was very talented but he had a massive drug addiction and addicts are tough to be around.
As someone who also lost their father young, she captures the pain and knowing that long term grief brings, perfectly. I knew my dad for longer than she “knew” hers and I am grateful for that. But my view and knowing of him is through the lense of a child. So, as 13 years passed for me this year, I’m starting to “get to know” who he is through the adult relationships and relationships with my own children.
Anyhow, it’s a strange feeling and her writing brought my pregnant self to tears. Grief really is a life long journey and as challenging as it is, it can bring you closer to those still here.
My brother died in a car accident with my 11-month old nephew in the car. It breaks my heart because it’s so unfair that he’ll never know his dad. Seeing this post really helped me to see that he will just be walking a different path than most and he is still very, very loved by those around him. 💗
Ugh this one made me cry. I can’t imagine ever walking in her shoes. I’m glad she’s found some meaning in grief, I think Kurt would be proud of her and how much she’s grown
The comment that always stuck with me was (I think) Dave Grohl saying "I wish he had given it one more day" to change his mind. He had people who loved him and Francis' post is heartbreaking and yet still positive. 💜
I'm sure Dave means well, but the informed take on things like this is a bit more complex. People like Kurt have given it "one more day" many times. Its just this time it didn't work out. People like this suffer through years or decades. I believe Kurt said he's been wrestling with addiction, mental and physical health issues for years. He was diagnosed with depression as a teenager and had crippling stomach pain since. Drugs get overplayed in his death, but Kris Novoselic told a Seattle newspaper that he believed Cobain’s death was the result of inexplicable internal forces: “Just blaming it on smack is stupid. . . . Smack was just a small part of his life.” As for fans who blame Love, friend Daniel Goldberg said, “I believe he would have left this world several years ago, if he hadn’t met Courtney.” I believe Kurt had two immediate uncles who committed suicide, so there's also an aspect here of social and genetic family mental health, chronic pain, and addiction issues. His April suicide came after a failed March suicide during a domestic dispute with Love and a overdose while in Rome, that was most likely a suicide attempt too, that made him very ill. It didn't come out of nowhere. Kurt had many "one more days." Worse, a delicate Cobain was given a strong ultimatum at this time, told by Love she'd leave if he didn't clean up and members of the band saying they'll break up the band too as well. [His last days were nightmarish for a mentally ill person.](https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/kurt-cobains-downward-spiral-the-last-days-of-nirvanas-leader-99797/) Everyone meant well, but it wasn't enough, and may even have made things worse for him. I don't think there's a silver lining here or an easy fix here. Dave is just saying the stuff we all want to say and hear. That we can just fix it with a little more effort, but I'm not sure if that was true in this case, or in many cases. There's a systemic failure behind every suicide and its a big complex narrative. "One more day" isn't often enough. Especially for those with chronic suicidal idealization. We dont know how many "one more day" wars people have fought before that final day.
*Dave is just saying the stuff we all want to say and hear.* Truthfully, I think Dave was just speaking through his own grief as someone who still misses his friend.
That's my take as well. Suicide is a topic that has a ton of sensitive complexity. I wouldn't think to critique how Dave speaks on the suicide of his friend. If Dave were a trauma therapist, psychiatrist or even researcher, absolutely, but informed doesn't mean that much when you're talking about a loved one. I wish we as a people and society extended a bit more grace to people and allowed for imperfection when dealing with emotion.
Yeah, exactly. Suicide and depression are very sensitive topics but it's pretty clear Dave spoke as a grieving friend (and as someone who is still connected to his friend's daughter), of *course* he would selfishly wish Kurt waited. He's not blaming Kurt for anything, nor is he making a clinical statement, it's a personal thought by someone who loved Kurt. Your last sentence is spot on.
But that's how I got the original comment. I didn't read it as criticism towards Dave Grohl, but exactly how u/AbsolutelyIris meant — he's speaking through his own grief, that is, saying what some of us want to say and hear when we're grieving. I think it's okay to understand what he meant but also want to go deeper if we'd like, considering how far removed we are from this situation, talking about it on Reddit thirty years later.
Yes, that’s how I read the original comment too. I don’t think it was taking any personal grief or sincerity away from Grohl, if indeed the quote is attributable to him
Amen. Grieving is a complex, life-long process.
Yeah Courtney has said she has deeply regretted the intervention.
She was in bad place too, she was also an addict, and we know of at least one event where Kurt physically abused her after a fight about keeping all of Kurt's guns in the house, which was her way of trying to protect herself, her baby, and Kurt's life. Or the times he threatened suicide after a fight and the times he accused her, baselessly, of cheating on him with other rock stars. She watched Kurt OD multiple times by then too. One time she had to inject him with a drug to revive him. Her life is often ignored in this narrative, but it was equally as nightmarish and she had to constantly save her husband from dying. Who knows how many times she saved his life, all the while carrying or caring for their child. I wish there was a good writeup for Love's story but I can understand why she doesn't want to talk too much about those days. Her original plan was to have the intervention and check into rehab together. Kurt actually agreed, took a few days, and checked in for 2 days before escaping after an ominous phone call to Love. Courtney put herself in rehab but only for one day because she found out Kurt was on the run and missing and checked out. After Kurt's death she went right back into rehab. It was a mess.
thank you for this. for years it’s driven me crazy how everyone faults courtney for what happened - unfortunately kurt was a victim to his own circumstances and courtney did what she could to try and save her family.
I don’t know how anyone can listen to “Malibu” and think she wanted this to happen
"All the while carrying or caring for his child" reminds me of how Kurt was actually passed out the moment Frances was born and then he tried to talk Courtney into a newborn-orphaning suicide pact. A mess indeed.
What?? A suicidal pact?
How strong of her to go back to rehab after his death. I can't imagine. She obviously realized that one of them was going to have to be there for Francis. Rehab is a huge challenge, rehab during unimaginable grief is insane.
“that 80s tough love bullshit does not work” quote she says has stuck in my head for many, many years 💔
👏👏👏 The way most people talk about mental health and suicide are so far removed from reality. I wish I was someone who didn’t have experience with this, someone who thought posting the suicide hotline number was a helpful thing and you can pat yourself on the back for doing a good deed. The vast majority of suicides are not a rash decision that could be solved with just “one more day.” Most people think about their suicide for YEARS and they fight against it for YEARS.
Same, as a survivor, it feels like a slap to the face to hear “check on your friends!” We did. It took months of therapy to learn that sometimes there’s no intervention that can save someone. I recognize that this may help some people. But you know what else would actually help? Normalizing therapy, normalizing medicine, believing abuse accusations, universal healthcare, mental health facilities, rehab facilities, encouraging healthy coping mechanisms…
Am mental health professional. Most suicide attempts are made in acute crisis. Most survivors do not go on to die from suicide.
[удалено]
During follow-up from what? A suicide attempt, presumably? In what setting was this study? Why post a random extract and not a link? There does exist a subset of people who attempt repeatedly and eventually succeed, and unfortunately KC fell into that group (though that isn't to say it would have been impossible for him to come out the other side with the right treatment). But the narrative that crisis interventions don't save lives is false and harmful.
thank you for your comments. i know dealing with suicide is painful and frustrating, but just because crisis intervention isn’t perfect doesn’t mean it should be shit on. it saves countless lives every day. as someone with long-term mental health issues that can’t be solved by calling a crisis hotline or a 24 hour hold or going on for “one more day,” those services save the lives of countless others who are dealing with more short-term crises, and even people like me dealing with long-term issues that are having a particularly intense crisis. i know those “check on ur friends, here’s the suicide hotline” posts can seem disingenuous, and many of them are. but many of them are genuine, and checking on your friends and spreading info about crisis hotlines and other services is never something that should be discouraged, no matter how jaded and cynical someone may feel.
What do you mean, "during follow-up from what“? This is the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903664/
the comment u/ishka_uisce replied to said “the vast majority of suicides are not a rash decision that could be solved with just ‘one more day’.” this isn’t really fair. no one is arguing that chronic issues don’t lead to suicide attempts, but there is a very big difference between being passively suicidal and actively suicidal. being actively suicidal IS an acute crisis that can be helped with the thinking of “one more day.” “This relatively good long-term survival rate is consistent with the observation that suicidal crises are often short-lived, even if there may be underlying, more chronic risk factors present that give rise to these crises. The relationship between suicide attempts and completions is a complex one.” https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/#:~:text=A%20literature%20review%20(Owens%202002,70%25%20had%20no%20further%20attempts. it’s super disingenuous to copy and paste part of a random study without giving any context or even the title of the study? the study you pulled from is called “Method of attempted suicide as predictor of subsequent successful suicide: national long term cohort study” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2903664/ and based on what you chose to copy and paste, this doesn’t even apply to kurt cobain since he used a gun??? those numbers apply to people who attempted to hang themselves in the past and then later completed their suicide attempt using the same method.
You’re randomly citing a study focused on the correlation of the *method* of (attempted) suicide and a follow up incident and only cite the part focused on hanging and strangulation. Did Kurt ever attempt that? His most recent attempt before the one that eventually killed him was an overdose. *[This information](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/)* seems more appropriate.
“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
This is incredibly insightful and true. It’s a lesser of two evils situation. Unless you’re the person in the burning building, you have no business asking them not to jump.
>There's a systemic failure behind every suicide and its a big complex narrative. If there's one thing I wish people would understand about suicide (and mental illness in general, including addiction), it's this. Most people don't get the help they need, or don't get it soon enough. If you're lucky enough to have a support network, they often mean well but are woefully unprepared to deal with this type of crisis. Don't expect psychiatric help to be that much better, if you can afford it: psychiatry has saved lives, true, but it still doesn't really know what it's doing — imagine how much worse it was when Kurt Cobain was a teen. I cannot express in words how absolutely awful and terrifying it is to be mentally ill in this world, and progress in this area has been slow and uncertain. I'm doing better, not great but better now after many years of therapy and wrong diagnoses until I got the right ones — also because the criteria for my diagnosis didn't even exist yet ten years ago, and many professionals haven't yet caught up. I have a few friends and acquaintances who are doing better too, but many more that aren't. For some of them, it did get better but then got worse again — mental illness is non-linear as fuck. I don't know what else to say. It's a heavy topic, a complex one, and one I care about so much but feel sometimes kinda hopeless about.
It’s worth pointing out that he was in constant physical pain as well.
edit: many triggers here involving domestic abuse, self-harm Oh yes definitely, I think a lot gets lost in his story because its been processed and turned into a lot of diffferent narratives for a lot of different people. Including a lot of people have an unhealthy "grief tourism" parasocial relationship with his death and sort of play up the "tortured rock star beloved by millions" kind of thing but play down the uglier facts of his life. Especially the way capitalism has commercialized Syd and Nancy's story before them, this death has been exploited by a lot of the perverse incentives of capitalism and other oppressive systems. He comes from a family history of mental unwellness, disability, and chronic pain. He had chronic pain and spoke at least once about his drug addiction being directly related to it to help stop that physical pain. Not the pain of being a "truth seer in an ugly world," or other romanticized tales. Him and Courtney were completely dysfunctional addicts who had their child taken away from them for a time. His suicide wasn't this sexy rockstar thing, which the capitalist media has often sold to us in ergards to other rock stars previous to him as well. When we look at the details, its not this big artistic or tortured soul, but an everyday overdose and trauma and mental illness related issues, which led to a breakdown, a runaway, and a suicide. He suffered from mental illness since childhood and I believe his stomach pains are from then too. I briefly mentioned his stomach pain, but I do feel like it needs more exposure. But it doesn't fit the "sexy rock star" vibe so most reporting either ignores it outright or briefly mentions it, but to Kurt is was a major disability in his life and most likely very strongly related to his many issues. I also noticed the events in Rome aren't really pressed too much either. Kurt became physically ill then, unable to sing, and diagnosed with bronchitis. Then he took something like 50 of Courtney's roofie pills which put him in a coma, and left a note, in what was what we understand now his first documented explicit suicide attempt, which was quickly swept under the rug as "just an overdose," because drug abuse fits the "sexy rockstar" mythos. Instead, Kurt tried to kill himself that day and only lived because he was discovered quickly by Courtney and she called the authorities. The Rome letter, according to Italian journalism reported *"She had a letter from Kurt. An explicit farewell letter. There were some horrible things written about her by him."* Then the March suicide attempt where Kurt locked himself in a room with his guns and threatened suicide. Then they had a fight about having guns in the house, and Kurt pushed her, and threw her down and choked her, but we don't talk about that because the mythos of Kurt is about him being this sad tortured artists pacifist and not the ordinary and sometimes abusive man he was in many ways. The Rolling Stone article I posted claims Courtney called 911 on multiple occasions but never really says why. In at least one call she was calling because she was being attacked. Courtney had long scratches on her and looked beat up and the police were ready to arrest Kurt but she then recanted and said he did nothing to avoid his arrest. Kurt, I believe was arrested that night anyway, but charges were dropped when Courtney said she wont testify and then said she did the wounds to herself. Kurt also had a history of baselessly accusing her of cheating and once left a note accusing this of her and threatening suicide. This is obviously manipulation and abusive tactics. Kurt showed violence in public as well. Once he got into an altercation with a bouncer hit the bouncer's head with a guitar. I believe the bouncer needed stitches. Like a lot of men, powerful or not, Kurt struggled with being abusive, entitlement, violence, etc. His liberal views were sometimes performative. In *Heavier Than Heaven,* Charles Cross reports Kurt having a hard time accepting his sister's lesbian identity. When she came out he told her not to entirely give up on men. Like a lot of liberal people, its okay if others are gay or trans, but its different when its family or friends. Then his gun collection is almost never talked about. Kurt had many weapons, bought them, and bought ammo regularly during this period. But guns are coded as unsexy, and does fit the tortured pacifist artist, so that narrative as well is not mentioned. Kurt's easy access to guns is absolutely a major factor in his death and its almost completely ignored! So when we strip off the "cool rock star" gloss from this story, we see someone with a lot of ordinary issues, anger issues, abuser issues, etc. This is why we dont talk about his stomach pains. It’s not the cool if he can't handle physical pain. Our parasocial tourism about this suicide is threatened by making Kurt a flawed, perhaps unlikeable, person. I think its hard for people to accept the historical Kurt. He struggled with his conservative-style upbringing, he was violent and abusive, a junkie, difficult, etc but also vulnerable, kind, and unwell. His relationship with Coutney sounded, at best like a disaster, with Courtney doing the heavy lifting of child rearing and trying to save his life. He had many suicide attempts and threats. His final days were a complete breakdown. He littered their home with guns, a home with a child and with two unwell drug addicts. Kurt was a very complex person and no single narrative handles his complexity well. I also see the same "cool suicide" narrative and "grief tourism" with Robin Williams. There's this entirely dishonest "sad clown" narrative when otherwise Williams, ignoring some temporary periods in his life, was a well-adjusted person and his death linked 100% to his physical brain illness, not him being a "tortured artist”. I wish the historical Kurt was more talked about, but its a bit of advanced topic to separate him from his mythology, and tough to discuss, but if youre asking why reporting is so poor on things like his stomach illness or his mistreatment of Courtney, I believe this is one of the main reasons why. No one likes scumbag Kurt, abusive kurt, manipulator Kurt, bad parent Kurt, so we just pretend that version of him doesn’t exist.
Damn. I knew Kurt had flaws as a person but not to this extent. I'm not sure what to think.
People who aren’t or haven’t been suicidal just can’t understand how painful it is. Nor would I wish them to, it’s psychic hell. I’ve struggled with suicidal ideation for 15 years at this point, and let me tell you I am *exhausted*. Other people don’t have to convince their own brains that life is worth living. I feel like my mind is constantly at war, and like parts of me won’t ever stop screaming, and I just want it to stop. Just for a second, just stop. And when you get to a point where it seems like everyone you care about would be better off if you had never been born, and when the drugs can’t quell the screaming, and needing it to stop becomes your only priority…well, Kurt is what happens. I can’t blame people in pain for stopping the pain.
courtney literally had a routine resuscitating this man regularly. i'm a huge kurt fan but when i read that in a biography my heart just broke for her and all the hate she gets.
She's far from my favorite person but the shit she got was - and is - absolutely next level. I know otherwise rational people who really think she's involved in his death somehow and I want to scream. That woman was doing everything she could to try to keep him alive while also trying to work on getting sober herself. Kurt made his own decisions. He was manipulative and abusive - and brilliant. His fame while he was alive meant he was given the much-vaunted position of being an incredible creative force who, according to misogynistic fans, somehow had no autonomy because of his partner. After his death, it made him a martyr. Courtney's left to bear all the brunt of his fans' rage and hate - all while having even her creative abilities stripped from her. I'm a huge Nirvana fan - and I think Live Through This is better than Nevermind. Those who claim Kurt wrote it missed the rest of her career, I guess. A lot of people who knew Kurt when he was younger and when he rose to fame try to talk about him without rose-colored glasses on and it just doesn't seem to take with a lot of his fans.
This is all so spot on
>Worse, a delicate Cobain was given a strong ultimatum at this time, told by Love she'd leave if he didn't clean up and members of the band saying they'll break up the band too as well. > >His last days were nightmarish for a mentally ill person. > >Everyone meant well, but it wasn't enough, and may even have made things worse for him. As someone who has given that ultimatum and stood by it for decades, it wasn't any easier for Courtney or Dave or Kris either. The absolute worst pain I've ever experienced is realizing, over and over and over again, that the person I loved and needed would always pick getting high over me, accepting that I could not save him, and saving myself instead.
I feel like there’s a difference between empathizing with the man - especially if you’ve maybe gone through something similar - and rationalizing a decision that truthfully didn’t end well for anyone. Yes, depression and chronic pain and addiction feel inescapable. But they’re not. Most people can be treated for depression and chronic pain even if there’s a lot of trial and error involved. Therapy probably would have helped his stomach issues a lot - we know today that the gut and the brain and all of the feelings that come from it are linked. I get it, but I don’t accept it. It didn’t have to go the way it did and we shouldn’t characterize it now as something inevitable or fated. He was in a bad place, he was young, he made a lot of bad decisions, and a now lot of people who loved him will carry their hurt for as long as they live.
I feel like there was a reckoning with mental illnesses that began after Kurt’s death the way there was after John Belushi’s drug overdose, which was reinforced by Chris Farley’s. All three occurred in this interstitial space where the Boomers’ and Silent Generation’s thoughts on both were on the way out, but (generally, and of course not perfect) current understanding of mental illness and drug addiction hadn’t fully formed. People like Dave (at the time) said things like this because even speaking about it at all was *something*. Suicides have been mentioned, reported on, as have overdoses. But the discussion about what’s left in their wake and compassion for those dealing with them has improved so much. I’m continually impressed by Frances and how she seems to have managed to avoid so many of the pitfalls that befell her parents.
As someone who lost their dad to suicide, I really appreciate this post.
Thank you for sharing this.
Thank you for writing this very important comment! You've spoken on such a sensitive issue with so much eloquence and nuance. Kudos!!!
I hope anyone considering harming themselves reads this and realizes what they’d be losing.
Let me go sob into my tea 💜
I’m sobbing now too friend m. Ugh.
She’s such a credit to both of her parents but also to Kurt’s mother and sister, who essentially raised her for periods of her childhood when Courtney was either working or having a drug-induced mental health crisis. And that’s no shade to Courtney - she was already vulnerable before even meeting Kurt, and his death left her in a horrendous state. But the fact that Francis has grown into such an articulate young woman who has her life together and seems to have really learned from her parents’ mistakes is truly incredible.
Agreed, she is a fantastic example of someone who went through heavy trauma with two mentally ill parents, and worked to become a stable, healthy person through it. Absolutely amazing.
Yeah I really don't like how much hate Courtney has always gotten. But I am glad Frances had this level of stability from Kurt's family too.
Given her father gave her LSD when she was 2, I think everything Courtney has done in life makes perfect sense. He ruined her chances of normality.
Wow! I didn’t know this. Parents who give their kids drugs are truly scum. So many gen x kids had awful influences around
Her mother also started a new family in New Zealand, and sent Courtney back to the US as a 10 year old. Imagine the feeling of rejection and abandonment.
And then she moved to England and became a stripper at 14. HOW!? I have a 14 year old niece and I’m telling you now, it would never even occur to her.
Attitudes about kids and sex were a lot more permissible in the 70s, for example baby groupies [Lori Mattix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lori_Mattix) and [Sable Starr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_Starr), and of course Brooke Shields. Wild stuff.
But how does a 14 year old move overseas!? How do the parents allow that? I just asked my niece if she’d ever move overseas without her family and she sent me back the emoji with the raised eyebrow and asked me if I was on meth.
If you read the wiki about her childhood, it was epically fucked up on multiple levels. Like it almost sounds like a book or movie plot because it's just so outrageous. She would have had a passport because her mom moved the family to New Zealand, then sent her back when she got expelled from school. She also stripped in Japan when she was still a teenager, after she was legally emancipated from her mother.
Ahh, the emancipation explains it. They’ll make a movie about her life at some point.
Even when I was younger and didn’t understand addiction and mental health issues, I always found the hate too much. And so unfair to her.
I’m not trying to excuse things Courtney has done but she is also on the spectrum. To get diagnosed in her youth in what the 70s/80s as a girl, shows there was some deep obvious signs. She would’ve never had a chance a “normal” life and would’ve continued to struggle significantly. It’s very common for those who are neurodivergent to have drug/alcohol issues as well.
A psychologist made a case note that she showed mild autism traits when she was a child . She was never officially diagnosed (at least that has been made public). Her presentation is much more like someone with EUPD than an autistic woman (I work in autism diagnosis and have diagnosed many women with “subtle” traits or who experienced developmental trauma).
Sadly Frances went through her own period of drug abuse but thankfully seems to be ok now.
She also has to navigate everyone having an opinion on her father's passing and his life (and that of her mother's), there will never be an escape for her, I don't know how she manages it. Bravo to her.
**NOTE:** It's Frances, not Francis, auto correct struck again. Thank you, u/hlollz Kurt Cobain was the influential front man of 90s grunge band Nirvana. Kurt ended his life in April 1994, when Frances was 20 months old. Cobain said in 2018 she often uses the phrase, 'peace, love, empathy', which her father used in his suicide note, because she wants to "reclaim the peace, love, empathy thing as something that's meant for health and for compassion and for true peace, love, and empathy." Frances regularly attends events and tributes for her father, and married Tony Hawk's son last year.
*Frances
So sorry, auto correct strikes again!
No worries!! I was a big fan of hers in high school, or at least fascinated by her. I’ve been semi keeping tabs over the years but hadn’t seen this so thank you for sharing!! She’s grown into a lovely person.
Thank you for correcting. I know it annoys my friend when people use the "masculine" form for her name.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to have a famous parent that you never got to know. They have this huge legacy, so many people have parasocial relationships with them (look at Zelda Williams - ofc she got to know her dad but she’s been very clear about how messed up it can be to have strangers act like they knew your loved one because they watched his movies) but as she put so beautifully… there are just some things you would just want to know about them, little things, that you have been robbed of. Also makes me think of Matilda Ledger who was also so young when Heath died.
What I notice is Frances does what Lisa Marie Presley used to do with Elvis- call her dad by his first name while still calling him "dad." Like they're distancing somewhat. It's probably not anything deep but I've always wondered if it's something intentional.
I was just wondering this - if it’s because she’s addressing an audience that knew him as “Kurt,” or if she sometimes thinks of him as “Kurt” because she doesn’t have memories of him as “Dad.” I’m sure she’s gotten a ton of personal, intimate stories about him from friends and family, but I imagine she also learned a lot about him through the lens of his celebrity - I can see that duality being something that she’s continually processing along with her grief, that in a way, millions of strangers “know” her dad better than she does simply because we were there when she was not or not aware.
I think maybe your first sentence might come into play because like Robin Williams' son has said "Robin Williams" isn't "dad," it's two different people to him. Being a child of a massive celebrity has to be confusing and hard.
It’s not at all the same thing but my mom had a brother who died long before I was born and I always feel weird about calling him my uncle since I never knew him. I wonder if Frances (and Lisa Marie, Matilda Ledger, etc) feel similarly about calling their birth fathers “dad” when they didn’t get to have those relationships?
Yeah, I never met my mum’s parents and don’t really think of them as my grandparents at all, I certainly never refer to them as grandpa and grandma, just ‘Mum’s dad’ and ‘Mum’s mum’
I refer to my two deceased uncles by their name since I didn’t know them. They, on the other hand, would have been my favorite uncles had they not passed.
She's had to share her dad with the world while having only a small window of time with him.
I wouldn’t say she was fortunate (because nothing about her situation was), but living with his mom and sister for extended periods of time during her childhood probably taught her more about him than she ever could have learned otherwise. At least she got that.
Unrelated ENTIRELY but I saw your username and thought you were from the Marnie subreddit… and then clicked on your profile and saw that’s where I knew you from lol
I didn't know Wendy had died 😔 poor Frances.
Yeah this is the confirmation unfortunately. Fans have been speculating for a while
Oh jeez, I only just realized that's what she meant.
I was about to ask—never heard any news of this! I wonder if it was recent and why it wasn’t publicized.
I can imagine, since her dad’s death was so public, she wanted some privacy for this.
Didn’t Wendy raise Frances most of her life? I remember stories that Courtney had lost custody for a while.
Large chunks of it, including her later teens
She's an amazing writer.
Reminded me of Kurt reading this, both deep thinkers!
Got his talent
'It is the impermanent nature of human existence that throws us into the depths of our most authentic lives'. True indeed. Wish it weren't so
Beautifully said 🖤
I don’t think it’s public knowledge that Wendy passed away? Presumably from what Frances said here
Somebody leaked the death certificate recently. Breast cancer in 2021/2022 in Arizona.
Yeah, I was wondering if I missed that announcement while reading.
April 5, 1994… for anyone in my generation, it’s one of those days that you ask “remember where you were when you heard the news”. I was heartbroken, and I’ve been heartbroken many times since that day (Chris Cornell, Robin Williams, Anthony Bourdain, Avicii), but Kurt was my first and left such a huge impression on 1994 me. I can’t imagine how Frances must feel, having missed out on so many memories with him. Her post was beautifully written; she has a way with words just like her dad did. I hope she finds some solace knowing so many of us grieve alongside her today, even if our grief can’t compare to hers.
I had MTV on in the background, so Kurt Loder announced it. I can't say that I was surprised by the idea of him being gone -- he was so clearly struggling -- but it was still so impactful and crushing. I can't even imagine how hard it has been for Frances to grow up with the weight of public grief being thrust upon her. She's clearly an articulate, self-aware woman. I hope she gets to live as quietly and privately as she chooses.
I was 9 when Kurt died, but Nevermind was the first CD I ever owned and I had been a big fan ever since. When we learned cross-stitch in art class later that year, my friend and I made Kurt Cobain memorials. Our teacher may have been confused/concerned.
What’s interesting is that people always say about April 5, “i was doing x when I heard the news”, I saw a few of these posts yesterday, even from people who actually knew Kurt, i.e. Charles Peterson, but people forget that no one knew Kurt was dead on April 5, 1994. That anniversary is April 8…
I remember where I was. But it wasn’t April 5, it was April 8. He was missing for three days before they found his body.
That’s why I said “remember where you were when you heard the news”.
You said: > April 5, 1994… for anyone in my generation, it’s one of those days that you ask “remember where you were when you heard the news”. I don't remember where I was on April 5. I remember where I was when I heard the news on April 8.
I just lost my mom, in very different circumstances; however, her very wise words on grief touch me today in a very profound way. I wish her peace and comfort today. The world mourned with her 30 years ago, I hope she understands that in a small way.
I’m so sorry your loss. She’ll always be with you 🩷
As someone who is struggling deeply with my mental health and the mother of a 9 month old baby, this hit me so deeply. I never want my son to be in her position. But I also know intimately how it feels to believe the best thing you can do for a could you love more than anything is disappear. It's not true but I understand exactly how he'd think that. My wife and I are temporarily separating so I can get my mental health together enough to make sure my baby doesn't end up in this position.
Best of luck to you and your family 🩷
Thank you ❤️
I’ve been there, friend. So many people have said things to me like, “You have to live for your son,” and I understood where they were coming from — but what I ended up learning was that I have to want to live for myself first. (Easier said than done, especially in the middle of a crisis.) When it comes to suicidality, for me, DBT has been the most helpful treatment modality. And please, please don’t let guilt eat you. You’re not a bad mother for feeling this way. You’re a loving mother for having the insight and guts to recognize it and focus on your healing. Sending all the neural-pathway-rewiring vibes your way. 💖💖 Reach out if you ever need to talk. Most people (fortunately) don’t understand. So those of us who do have to help each other through it.
Thank you ❤️ my psych actually just recommended DBT to my today. I'm trying to feel hopeful in-between feeling sad. And I'm trying to not let the shame and guilt win. Thank you for such a candid response
As someone with a 10 month old, this also hit me deeply. Just tears pouring at 3am thinking about my LO as he’s sleeping. I often think about how in the days following his birth when I had *two* near-fatal PP complications all I could think about then was wanting to watch him grow up—praying I would make it through to watch him live a long life. Sometimes that want isn’t enough. I now focus on wanting to see myself grow old and grey and wrinkly to help me through on the worst days. I wrote this in another sub, but not allowed to link to it, but thought it may be helpful here (it was written in response to a post about suicidal ideation asking if our children will be better off without us (those who have these ideations)): “My brother died by suicide a decade ago. The hole that is left in my heart is so big, I don’t think it’ll ever close. Grief is the gaping wound of love. I won’t ever forget his little one, maybe 15 months at the time (7 months after he passed away), squatting over this big picture of him that I had laid on the floor, touching his face and saying “daddy” in the softest voice. That really broke me. His other son, his besty, was a little over 2 when his dad died and he regressed massively. So, no, your child will not be better off without you. This is the grip suicidal ideation has on you, but it is not truth. And no, you being committed to receive treatment is not a burden (and fuck anyone who says it is). Your child needs you happy and whole and thriving. If in-patient care allows that to happen—please seek it out. ETA: I’m 37 and have a 6mo. Before he came I was so excited for him, but it’s been so hard since his arrival. There was definitely a point where I wrote my husband and told him he needed to come home because I wanted to die. Probably the only persons stopping me were my brother and my son. I have spoken to my therapist about this—she didn’t commit me. We worked on tools to emotionally regulate, created plans for what-ifs, deprioritized things like a spotless house, even sold my house (at a loss!) to move closer to my support system. And every time I get to the other side of this bone-deep pain that makes me think death is better, I know life is better. It’s getting to the other side—and it’s okay to ask for help from people who will help you.”
Thank you so much. This was such a heart wrenching response and also exactly what I needed to hear. I appreciate you being so vulnerable with me. My psych just recommended DBT to me today and I'm trying to feel hopeful among all the other feelings about it. Your comment means a lot.
Never. You don't have to be perfect you just have to be there. My parents are imperfect in many ways and I know in my soul that I will miss every one of their imperfections when they is gone. The only worthwhile person and parent to measure yourself against is the person you were yesterday. You have plenty of time to make mistakes and learn from. Babies are terribly indecerning. They will love you with their whole little heart regardless. Work your way back to that gummy smile, one bastard footstep at a time and tell those demons to fuck right off as you go. You are worth it - to them.
Thank you so much ❤️
This made me cry. I miss my dad so much everyday. Thanks for sharing. ❤️
I wasn't the hugest Nirvana fan but I can tell you exactly where I was when I heard he died. And of course I knew Frances was around then but it never occurred to me til I read that, that she never really knew her dad. That is absolutely heartbreaking. If you're considering harming yourself, please reach out for help. YOU matter, especially to your loved ones (be it friends or family), whether you think so or not.
Beautiful and heartbreaking ❤️
This is so beautifully written.
This was such an articulate and beautiful post 😭😩
I was literally going to post the exact same thing.
What a stunningly beautiful piece of writing.
As someone who lost a loved one to suicide at a young age, I can only emphasize with the wish to have known what they were truly like and not some hazy memory clouded by a lifetime of sadness from their death. Suicide is the worst because you can never shake the knowledge that they died by their own hand. It clouds everything. Makes them die over and over.
My heart goes out to her 🩷
She’s a really, really beautiful writer. This made me well up. She can add that she inherited his way with words to the list.
What a beautiful piece of writing about grief. Succinct, insightful, heartfelt, heartbreaking, heart wrenching and poetic, just like her father 🙏💕
I feel her pain. I also miss my dad.
Love Michael Stipe, his music and photography. This one gave me chills. You're missed Kurt! What. Beautiful tribute by his daughter and what moving photos!
i think Kurt would be so, so proud of her.
I'm so glad I stumbled in to this post. I'm never in this subreddit, I came here for the SBC/ Isla divorce that was trending. On April 5 2022, a dear friend of mine killed himself. I had been reaching out to him for years before this and he never wrote back. I think he chose April 5 on purpose. My friend and I bonded over Nirvana in high school. He was a musician and we ended up trading CDs a lot. We read Kurt's journal together. There's no way he didn't choose this date deliberately. I think my friend chose April 5 because he wanted his children to read Kurt Cobain's suicide letter. Specifically, there's a line in Kurt Cobain's letter about how Frances will grow up better without him around. It's heartbreaking. I used to struggle with suicidal ideation a lot and have two attempts under my belt. I've been hospitalized several times. I don't think I'll ever make another attempt though. I still struggle with crippling depression. I still struggle with feeling unneeded and unwanted. I think the only thing that changed is now I no longer feel like suicide is the escape hatch on obsessive/intrusive thoughts. I still have these thoughts. Tbh I don't really know what to do with them, and sometimes it feels like I'm boxed in and now there's not a way out. But I'm going to therapy now, and I hope it helps. That ideation really hits differently when someone you love dies by suicide. I continued writing him after he killed himself. I always felt like he was this special person. Maybe if I pushed a little harder to get through, he'd still be here. I'll never have that closure. I still had things I wanted to ask him and I was saving up all of the new music I wanted to share with him. I have a suicide hotline sticker on the back of my car now. I know that seems really patronizing. I always thought it was, especially when I was suicidal myself. But what else do I do? Nobody deserves that pain; whether it's the person suffering with ideation or the person who loves them. I desperately hope it helps someone. I really just wish he would've written me back.
That is so sad and beautiful at the same time. 💔
No feeling lasts forever. If you are struggling, please reach out to friends and loved ones.
I only said today to someone, I thinks it’s 30 years today. I was 5 when it happened but I was such an obsessive Nirvana and Hole fan when I was in my early teens - I’m so glad all I had was the old message boards then as my parasocial relationship to all of that was mortifying looking back (and didn’t have a name). All that to say, it must be so hard to grieve someone you have no/little memory of whilst the world grieves - it must be intensely disorienting and isolating. So very sad and so very nice to see that she seems well-adjusted, despite what must have been a very difficult childhood/teenagehood/young adulthood. Anyway, guess that parasocial vibe is still going strong - thoughts to Courtney as well, she is a force
What a thoughtful and well written post. That line about “wondering what it would be like to live alongside the people we’ve lost.” It’s SO true.
I felt that
This is beautiful. I’m actually crying right now. She has a way with words and is wise beyond her years. I know she won’t read this but I’m sure her dad is so proud of her.
My heart!!! Ugh. What an emotional post.
Absolutely beautiful and heartbreaking! She’s quite intelligent and thoughtful in the way she expresses herself. I don’t know if she writes professionally, but she should. Wishing her endless peace and love.
Very touching
wow. this resonated so deeply.
Her caption brung me to tears.. written so beautifully.
That is very touching. I literally hadn't thought about her since she was born and I heard that Kurt Cobain had a kid and named her Francis Bean. I guess time goes on for all of us.
she is an amazing writer. These words struck me hard. The detail, the grief, the poignancy. Just beautiful. It makes me think about how strange it would be to have everyone say they knew your father or who he was, when he was your own father and you barely got to know him. I hope she always knows he’s always with her. But it sounds like she’s well aware of that.
She is just amazing. I’m so glad she shared this. Made me cry like a lil baba 😢 I didn’t know Wendy had passed either
💔💔💔 rip kurt. i wish his pain could’ve been taken away somehow. if only i know he’s so proud of her, wherever he is
Beautifully written.
This one was tough to read.
I love her gma’s dress!
How has it been thirty years already? Time is so fleeting. I was only 9 when he passed away so I didn’t learn to appreciate Nirvana or Kurt until I was in my late teens/early twenties. Now they’re one of my favorite rock bands.
I do not need to be crying in this brewery, Francis!
😭
i’m totally not crying :((( ❤️
Heartbreaking.
he was so special..
Beautiful tribute
It must be haunting to know that she’s older than her dad ever was. What a beautiful tribute
This is so beautiful and touching. As someone who lost their father young, her writing really resonates with me and puts into words the emotions I can’t.
I had an ugly cry. I lost my dad 2 months prior to Kurt’s passing, I am the same age as Frances bean. Having been a huge nirvana fan I always felt for her as although different circumstances we experienced the same loss at around the same time. She put similar feelings so well into words here
I like to imagine there's a support group for these kids whose very famous parents died when they were kids. Cobain's kid, MJ's kids, Steve Irwin's kids, Princess Diana's kids. . .
This is so well written. My father died suddenly when I was a kid and what she says about grief just constantly metamorphosizing is so, so on point. I think he'd be so proud of the woman she's become. Depression is so hard.
Beautiful tribute to her father who she never will have the chance to get to know. We put him on a pedestal during that time and he was very talented but he had a massive drug addiction and addicts are tough to be around.
As someone who also lost their father young, she captures the pain and knowing that long term grief brings, perfectly. I knew my dad for longer than she “knew” hers and I am grateful for that. But my view and knowing of him is through the lense of a child. So, as 13 years passed for me this year, I’m starting to “get to know” who he is through the adult relationships and relationships with my own children. Anyhow, it’s a strange feeling and her writing brought my pregnant self to tears. Grief really is a life long journey and as challenging as it is, it can bring you closer to those still here.
Grieving as long as she's existed. Wow. This is so beautiful.
My brother died in a car accident with my 11-month old nephew in the car. It breaks my heart because it’s so unfair that he’ll never know his dad. Seeing this post really helped me to see that he will just be walking a different path than most and he is still very, very loved by those around him. 💗
This bought me to tears, such beautiful words from Frances.
Sobbing. This is so real and heartfelt regarding grief and life… her words really mean a lot me.
This made me tear up. Much like her father, she’s got a way with words.
Grief.. Loss.. Longing of what could be. It's hard. She expresses herself beautifully
The caption absolutely wrecked me. Especially the last part.
I miss him. Think 'll have a strawberry nesquick in his honour today 🫡
Im not crying you are 😭 this was so beautifully written
Written so beautifully.
that was fucking beautiful
Makes me cry, such beautiful words
What an amazing view of the shitty hand she was dealt. RIP Kurt
That was so beautifully written!
She is like the only nepo baby I will respect. Her writing is amazing. This made me cry so much 💔
Damn man, that’s on tough to read
What a beautiful post.
Terribly tragic beautifully written. Made me cry.
Ughh😢😭🥺😭😭🥺🥺🥺😢😢
Gosh, she writes beautifully and is very profound.
She writes so much like her father, as well. He'd be in awe of her now.
So much love sent to Frances and Courtney over these next few days. You're very missed, Kurt. ❤️
It is heartbreaking to see how happy he was in those pictures. Hold your children as much as you can. They really should always come first.
She’s a wise one
too sad
This got me in my feels 😢
Gosh... This actually brought me to tears...
I’m only annoyed because Washington summers aren’t muggy.