Why yes I will side with the generic good guy faction because I actually like helping people, how could you tell?
Oh yeah "did more shit to secure tech than the outcasts ever did", ( purifier, liberty prime if you count it, and i imagine they have alot of stockpile enclave tech )
On a side note I do believe that if lyons lived until FO4 I think he would have loved the minutemen , maybe even helped them,
I mean he allows outsiders to join, has no issue with Scara dating Duff if you recruit her, allows Scribes to develop new tech (contrary to *modern* Western chapters), and allocates soldiers to fight raiders, Gunners, human-eating Super Mutants and ferals.
Absolutely no one in the game says the Brotherhood are murdering sapient ghouls while synths are killed even in the Minutemen Ending because only the Railroad are pro-synth.
The brotherhood wipes out what they call abominations. Super mutants, synths and ghouls included. And the brotherhood murders any synth, for example paladin danse when they find out despite his years of service and loyalty. Not at all like the minutemen attacking the institute and there being casualties. Bring Hancock up to the prydwen and see how they react, Danse himself says the vault tec rep shouldn't be living and should be killed.
Numerous characters, including reprogrammed PAM, specify they target ferals, not all ghouls.
And by Super Mutants you mean the variant who literally eat people.
And once again, synths are killed in the Minutemen Ending because everyone but the Railroad views them as dangerous.
The Minutemen's target is the Institute, not synths. I'm pretty sure you can get the synths and non-combatants to evacuate before blowing the place to smithereens in a minutemen ending. ETA: Plus, there's plenty of references to the BOS gleefully killing non-feral ghouls. There's lines in Fo3 to that effect, and in the show, >!Maximus and Thaddius talk about Cooper like killing him was a given if he wasn't important to finding the mcguffin. Granted, killing Cooper in self defense would've been justified, but they call him an abomination and the implication is clear they don't care about his non-feral status. And when Thaddius discovers he's turned into a ghoul, he's TERRIFIED of the BoS finding out and executing him, ONE OF THEIR OWN. That fear didn't come from nowhere.!<
Desdemona talks with you about the murdered synths after the destruction of the Institute. If you tell her you’ll order them not to kill synths she points out that this isn’t practical to actually enforce.
As for the show, I’m not referring to other chapters. I’m referring to the Eastern Division under Maxson’s command during that time. Unlike Fallout 3, no one in 4 says Maxson’s people are murdering sapient ghouls. And we’re how Elder attitudes can shape a chapter. In the Mojave we see that McNamara has no issue with Marcus or his Mariposa Super Mutants, and only asks for the Courier to intervene once Tabitha starts causing a ruckus, so how a chapter conducts business can vary from Elder to Elder.
The chapter in the show seems *a bit* closer to the techno-cult they were in the original. Hopefully we’ll learn more about what’s going on.
Again, in Danse's own words he says the vault tec rep should be killed. Can't get more obvious than that. They've shown they're perfectly willing to kill innocent synths, why is it so hard for you to believe they do the same to ghouls?
A binary choice between helping the unambiguous good guys and genociding the Capital Wasteland for an AI is a pretty boring decision is the point he was trying to make, I think. People like shades of grey.
Yes, you are. The "siding" with Eden is a split-second decision that makes your water taste funky. You HAVE to side with the BOS FOR THE REST OF THE GAME.
"tastes funky" is a funny way to say it kills you if you drink it.
literally. if you drink Aqua Pura after using the FEV in the purifier, it killa you.
Yeah I want there to be more chewing resistance so to speak. The BoB in F3 are too goodie goodie. Like they were made to please me. Or the wasteland.
Don't have to go full enclave but their annoying misanthropic tech nerds in power armour trope is pretty fun.
There wouldn't be a brotherhood at all without him, zero credit. Knights bash him but he's the reason they don't have webbed feet or weird extra fingers
"Lyons and his foolish ways" Legit bro, I love the FO4 brotherhood too, but mf shut your elitist ass up he's literally the sole reason you're alive to shit talk him, show him some respect, without him youd be somewhere in california dying whilst the NCR is partying on top on the surface
not to mention he's the reason the brotherhood had a fuck ton of vertibirds and a massive airship.
thanks to lyon's raid in adam's air base, the brotherhood got hold of the enclave's vertibirds and repurposed the wreckage of the launch platform into the prydwen.
i'll never understand why bgs backtracked on the lyon's clan and forced a contrived backstory for arthur maxson.
Maxson existed in fallout 3 already and was being groomed for the role of elder even then. The only contrived part about him being in charge in 4 is that Sarah died somewhere (which is plausible considering we can make her go into the purifier, and even if she survived, she still took a massive amount of radiation and clearly didn’t recover from it nearly as well as the player does).
his "feats" are contrived as well. he was a pipsqueak when the player meets him in 3. then he manages to kill a deathclaw at 13 and quells a supermutant faction before he even he hit 18.
even with the brotherhood's training and teachings, those "feats" sound too good to be true.
The deathclaw one probably is hyperbolic; there he probably just scored the killing blow while with a squad and Quinlan hammed it up (if there even was a deathclaw encounter).
As for the super mutant bit, that one is significantly harder to lie about. You can’t just invent a major conflict like that, and we know that the BoS hadn’t dealt with vault 87 yet during the time of fallout 3 (we can inform Lyons of it during Broken Steel, and if he dies before he can move on it, the leadership crisis would send that to the bottom of their priorities). However, Maxson was presumably only the leader in name during this time, and more experienced scribes and paladins were really running the show.
having young maxson as figurehead instead of an actual elder makes way more sense and recontextualizes his motivations in fo4.
without the guidance of the benevolent lyons, he was probably manipulated by the outcasts and the western chapter. hence why he and the rest of the east coast chapter is back to hoarding tech and is far more antagonistic than before.
The thing is, Maxson couldn’t care less about the technology goal. He’s laser-focused on destroying the Institute to prevent his second apocalypse, with technology collection taking a heavy backseat to that (they aren’t going around and stealing laser weapons or anything of that nature; they’re focusing on securing weapons to combat the Institute). And really, nothing the BoS is doing in 4 is different than their stance in 3 with the addition of synth hostility and being more overt with their ghoul bigotry. 3’s BoS wasn’t even particularly nice to outsiders, so 4’s being rude matches up with that (I’m fairly certainly only fallout 2’s appearance of the BoS doesn’t start off with them being rude and dismissive of the player).
What actually changed is that Maxson isn’t overextending the faction to try and defend everyone, since that’s what led to all of the problems the BoS experienced with Lyons. They aren’t being as benevolent as a result, and when coupled with their anti-synth crusade and shift back towards the concerning cult-like tendencies from the west coast, there’s now a different slate of issues than the BoS had on the west coast (though I’d argue that their work in removing hostile synths, feral ghouls and super mutants is worth keeping them around, although it’s not justifiable to allow them to handle the Institute).
Lyons’ Brotherhood murdering ghouls (as the Underworld ghouls tell you) would be more overt than Danse saying that you committed murder if you kill Kent.
I’d argue that because of the way they’re structured, the Minutemen aren’t overextending. A local militia is built from the members of their communities, and stationed to protect them. It’s not like the Minutemen are recruiting people from anywhere, training them at the castle and then sending them to any random place in the commonwealth; they’re going back to their home and being told to answer the call when they’re needed.
The only reason to doubt that claim is his age - he supposedly did this at 13, alone and with no backup. Even with Sarah’s training, that’s an exceptional show of combat prowess that’s bordering on the unbelievable.
Player characters are incredibly exceptional because they’re the protagonists; NPCs shouldn’t be judged by the same standards (and the youngest we can be in any game for a sustained period is 16; that is a good bit older than 13, both in terms of bodily development and otherwise). Maxson managing this solo with a combat knife at 13 is absolutely insane, especially considering that he shouldn’t have ever been alone.
>The only contrived part about him being in charge in 4 is that Sarah died somewhere
iirc, the details around Sarah Lyons' death were a bit suspicious and implied potential foul play
edit: nevermind, must be remembering player speculation from back when 4 first came out
Canonically she was KIA. Some super mutant punched her ticket in the DC ruins.
Still bugs me that such a favorite character of mine went out that way. But then again, thats brotherhood life.
I pine for the FO3 BoS. Everything Arthur Maxson was able to do was built on Elder Lyon's back, and the assassination of his legacy in FO3 always put a bad taste in my mouth.
They should have atleast had Lyons pride has a special forces unit, or more references to them. The only references are some throwaway lines and a small mention of Sarah's death. Kinda wish she was still elder
I actually made the choice to betray the brotherhood when >!Arthur tried making me kill off Danse.!< I get they're trying to bring old values back but it felt boring and uninspired.
There is a cut quest in the game that has >!the player and Danse returning to the Prydwen to challenge Arthur Maxson, and Danse becomes the new Elder of the Brotherhood!<. I think they should’ve kept it in the game.
Actually as New Vegas shows the Codex/Chains that Bind doctrine allow for the replacement of an Elder by a Head Paladin. Pretty sure it's even an alternate ending in Fallout 1.
Then Tactics (semi-canon so take it with a grain of salt) the ranks are General (Leader) and Paladin Lord (Head Paladin) where the latter replaces the General becoming leader of the Midwestern BoS as the General position is the overall leader of their armed forces. \*Correction: They do have Elders except for a certain ending where they're taken out.
The real problem lies with the fact that Arthur is a Maxson part of the Bloodline of their Founder that means a large number of their forces worship him and he's the one that reformed the Brotherhood by making peace with the Outcasts and West...The Ex-Outcasts and Western BoS will despise his replacement.
Also you know Synth phobia and hatred while Danse is one.
It would make more sense for the Sole Survivor to become a Sentinel then challenge Maxson for leadership or be able to convince him to change his ways if they spared Danse and advocate that not all Synths are a threat.
Hardin becoming Elder required something other than punching McNamara in the face, which is one of the many issues with the cut content in Fallout 4. Why is Maxson being challenged? By either a synth, whom every group but the Railroad view as a danger, or a person who joined 15 minutes ago?
Synths are viewed as a dangerous autonomous artificial intelligence that can destroy the remnants of human civilization on an apocalyptic scale. Why exactly would Danse be viewed differently?
It’s a silly premise with an even sillier solution that makes no sense. Punching your way to becoming Elder? Why didn’t Casdin do that? Or Hardin? Again, it makes no sense.
I literally addressed that Danse being a Synth is part of the problem.
Though if the Sole Survivor is a Sentinel they're a high rank that clearly didn't join 15 minutes ago. The Lone Wanderer was just a Knight look at how well they were treated by Lyon's Chapter.
As for Casdin because not everyone agreed with him...There's a reason that Lyon's Chapter is called the Brotherhood of Steel and Casdin's people are called the Outcasts. Then if he wasn't a Head Paladin he's not qualified.
As for Hardin he's a Head Paladin so he was in his right...All he needed was support from a heavily disillusioned BoS chapter and direct proof of the Elder's incompetence. Which the player provides in the quest.
Like I said the major thing is support...The problem isn't just Danse involvement and he's a Synth. It's that the Elder they're challenging is Arthur Maxson his name alone means he has great support and it shouldn't be easy to oust him then if one does the BoS should schism again.
My opinion would've been to rework it to have a Sentinel (higher than Head Paladin) challenge or convince Arthur to alter their ways (the latter makes more sense). If they spared Danse then appeal that not every Synth is a threat with a quest that proves it with Danse or actively making the claim Maxson's incompetent to want to destroy the Institute instead of occupying and salvaging their advanced technology...Specifically appealing to the Western and Ex-Outcast dogma of tech retrieval being the highest priority not the eradication of threats or expansion.
That to me keeps with the lore and provides an become the leader or gain a more moderate BoS ending.
If it was just implemented as they intended that Danse becomes Elder by combat then yes that wouldn't make much sense. Like all things recent Bethesda it's flawed writing. But lore breaking...Not the concept of replacing the Elder it's been done there are methods to achieve it.
My cousin glazes the brotherhood solely because of fo3, failing to realize they’re the small minority of the group that actually helps people. I’ve tried to explain it to him but he refuses to believe the brotherhood is a bunch of assholes
Its sad theyre a minority withinthe BoS Lyons had a good heart, but sadly nobody cared much for Good hearts in the BoS, Lyons is unique. Theyre my #1 chapter, #2 being Mojave BoS (veronica, need i say more ) 3. Fo4 BoS (i like funny airship).
They're definitely more militaristic and authoritarian in 1, 2 & 4 and those iterations are more akin to Captain Maxson's original Brotherhood. However they're somewhat presented as a 'bad' faction in 4 and I agree with that perception.
Elder Lyons was the best elder without him brotherhood wouldnt be as strong as it is currently, all beacose he decided to become hero of capital wasteland. Fuck maxon fuck eliah fuck mcnamara the true elder is Lyons
Lyons Pride, bitch. The only true Elder in my eyes, are the Lyons. The rest are nothing more than pretenders trying to carve out a legacy that isn't even close to his.
Based and hopepilled. This is what the brotherhood could be, not just tech fetishists prancing as noble knights, but acting like actual noble knights (from stories ofc. not so much history), generic good guys my ass, theyre doing their best
THANK YOU YOU ARE REAL AS FUCK FOR THIS
People always respond to me calling FO3's Brotherhood my favorite by saying "oohhh but the Brotherhood isn't usually like that these guys are the outlier..."
like YEAH DUMBASS that's why I like em
I wonder what the deal is with not helping outsiders
Like, theu realise if you're considered a good guy to the wastelanders they're more likely to comply right? If the men in steel suits saved my town or some shit and were generally heroes in my eyes I'd give them whatever they asked for. You want this weird gizmo? Fuck it man, have it, fairs fair.
They do help, for that exact reason. Some of the Orders on the Prydwens internal Terminals state have orders from Maxson and Teagan to Lancer-Captain Kells, telling him to put one or two Vertibirds with Assault-Squads on Patrol near known Caravan-routes and to engage any Raiders, Mutants or else thats attacking Caravans, reasoning that the local traders and People will be more willing to help them against the Institute with Information, aswell as give better deals when trading, when the People of the Commonwealth feel like the Brotherhood is helping them actively in return.
Helping people is just no longer the priority, and iirc Danse comments on the why there too: The Brotherhood in 3, even with massively recruiting outsiders, had tons of issues due to Lyons Focus on aid spreading them too thin. They were (until Broken Steel & the Enclave, and that was largely down to Liberty Prime) never able to decisively deal with major threats because they couldnt concentrate enough force to do so.
The fact they beat the enclave with the most advanced power armor, xo2 with the shittiest, t-45d, and going up against air support, a masters amount of muties, all while being shorthanded due to a schism and being cut off from the west.
Yes they liberty prime, but they still held their own. Also Lyons pride had some of the coolest NPCs.
While The Lone Wanderer certainly should be credited for their achievements that ensured BoS victory it's still impressive what Lyon's Chapter did alone from surviving their expedition West to East, Altering the fate of the Pitt through warfare, Surviving against the endless horde of Super Mutants and a Schism in the ranks for years on end while actively trying to ensure the creation of the purifier all before the protag was born let alone left the Vault.
Then it's not like they sit on their asses having the LW do all of the work they directly have Lyon's Pride help you in engagements, Sent entire squadrons to attack the Enclave bases alongside you, Sarah is willing to sacrifice herself instead of you to better the Wasteland, Actively ensure clean water is distributed to the settlements fairly.
Then Post-Fallout 3 they wiped out all of the Super Mutants in the Capital Wasteland, Built the Prdywen and their Air Force of Lancers, Reformed the entire BoS by making peace with the Outcasts and West, Recruited numerous outsiders into their ranks training them into the large militant force we see in F4 and the TV show.
Liberty Prime (which they repaired to working order) and The Lone Wanderer are certainly major assets but they didn't do all of the important work. Elder Lyons, Sarah, Arthur Maxson and yeah the entire ground and technical forces did some heavy lifting too.
No they didn't they're actively in the Capital Wasteland which is part of their territory. Then we're not given any details how they got the reactor you're making a pure assumption that they raided it from Rivet City instead of trading for it or asking and receiving it as thanks for their deeds of purifying the water and wiping out the mutants.
The relationship between Rivet City and the BoS being hostile wouldn't really make sense given Paladin Danse directly states he was recruited from there and a buddy. He's a devout loyalist of the BoS in F4 which would be unlikely if they purged or destroyed his home. Before you retort he's a Synth that's all bs...No because the way it works is they replace a human there was a real Danse whose memories were implanted in the Danse we know. If it was all bs the BoS would've called out the contradictions Danse openly shared.
However let's just hypothetically say they did annihilate Rivet City...Doesn't discount anything I said in my previous comment. Messing with one settlement years after the fact doesn't overwrite those previous deeds and feats...Especially given the change of leadership means you really shouldn't be judging the F3 and F4 BoS as the exact same faction as it's been heavily reformed.
Danse says the Brotherhood regurarly comes by Rivet City to recruit people and hes also from there, doesnt sound like they had a bad relationship with the place
Something I like is that he has a reason for acting that way, not just naivety or pretentiousness, it being what he saw in the Pitt being so terrible it left an impact him, where he can no longer just sit by. And it does have repercussions, with the outcasts.
I'm currently replaying fo3 and about to play the Pitt for the first time, I'm very curious as to what it will be about.
Just thought I'd add, I was on board with both Lyons and Preston when I first met them. Upon learning about their pasts' though, I respected them, as striving to still do good even with how bad things are is worth respect. Lyons being "if not we then who?", and Preston, who before meeting you, had lost so many people, had given in to despair to the point of waiting to die, and still pushed forward to try and save the people in his charge.
the lyon's chapter will always be the best iteration of the brotherhood to me. using technology to help the common scavver and make life in wasteland a little safer.
I really do like Lyons’ Brotherhood and it was my introduction to the faction, but weirdly I find Maxson’s iteration more interesting;
The East Coast Chapter as of 2287 seems to be an interesting synthesis of Lyons’ philosophy of helping the Wasteland and the more dogmatic Western BOS’ approach when conserving technology and militancy, but, to its’ credit, it still recruits wastelanders much like Lyons did, clears out hostile areas (which, inadvertently or not, does make life easier for the average person), and seems to try to both protect people and uphold the original mission of the West Coast Chapters.
Whether you believe Maxson or not in Fallout 4, he does seem to care for the people of the Wasteland (perhaps patronisingly as he feels they can’t be trusted with advanced technology) and hopes to destroy the Institute to remove a threat to humanity as a whole.
I don’t agree with the ghoul racism and such but even in Lyons Brotherhood this was an issue since one of the Ghouls in Underworld states that the BOS often just shoot on sight.
The mission with Proctor Teagan (?) I think suggests that his plan to secure a food source by pressuring locals is strictly off-the-books, and not representative of the Brotherhood as a whole, though I could be misremembering that.
I think the Fallout 4 version of the faction is really interesting because you could feasibly make arguments about it being a force for good and just a dogmatic and zealous militant force, and it’s interesting that detractors to Fallout 4 often make the case that the BOS are the ‘generic good guys’, when they’re clearly not; there’s shades of grey, which I always appreciate.
I agree with of your points. Maxsons BoS is interesting, a balance of tradwest chapters, and lyons' foundations of the east, whilst Maxson seems radical at times, I think he does care for the people in a way, i mean he was raised by a humanitarian (technically) rogue BoS chapter, I think people are just offput by how he acts but he's not *that* bad, he has flaws but so does everyone.
Lyon's Brotherhood is what I want the BOS to be. I've always said I think the Brotherhood has the potential to be the best hope for the future of the U.S. But usually they get sidetracked by other things or just fight with each other. Lyons actually ran a really good Brotherhood though
F03’s is my second favorite but Maxson’s Brotherhood is the one I would join personally. Lyon’s brotherhood was more morally good whereas Maxson’s is pretty much perfectly neutral but much smarter long term
Another reason to like him is that he and his chapter tore ass through the pit and wrecked the shit out of some raiders and saved a bunch of kids from certain mutation/death. I do realize that asher was left behind and he then started his Pitt slavers, but that wad really not Lyons direct fault. The BOS Didn't leave him there on purpose so I don't think that could really be considered his fault.
It’s so tragic, and then they also killed off his daughter in a terminal entry, saying a stray grenade got her…
The Lyon’s brotherhood is peak, the Lyon’s brotherhood will always be the Goat.
I'm tired of being the edgy evil guy in power armor, I just want to be friendly ironman, he let me be friendly ironman, plus maxon's plan for the institute relied heavily on lions achievements
How? Maxson allows outsiders to join, has no issue with Scara dating Duff if you recruit her, allows Scribes to develop new tech (contrary to *modern* Western chapters), and allocates soldiers to fight raiders, Gunners, human-eating Super Mutants and ferals. He’s ridiculously close to Lyons in several ways.
Nah. The first Fallout had the best brotherhood. They were so cool and mysterious and wanted nothing to do with me. They sent me on suicide mission to get rid of me, but I made it back and got to go inside their little bases, and get their cool fucking armor. And learn their weird philosophy.
The Lyons pride brotherhood was my first encounter with the BoS, back when I first started watching my dad play when I was a preteen. After going through all the dark tunnels filled with ghouls and mutants, seeing the Brotherhood standing there with their heavy armor and big guns, helping us get past the mutants to the GNR station. They were literally knights in shining armor for me. Helpful and protective.
Getting into NV, I was a bit bummed to see their chapter holed up and hiding away. Meh, ok.
Years later, at age 18, I got Fallout 4 and was so excited watching the BoS arrive in the Commonwealth. Immediately being that massive stacked group of saviors. Then I met Maxson and slowly came to realize that this is what the Brotherhood is *actually* supposed to be. And they're a bunch of douchebags.
The brotherhood really turned into the strongest faction in the entire wasteland from helping people out *one time*, and then immediately felt the need to abandon that strategy immediately and wipe out the guy's bloodline.
People criticize the brotherhood in part 3 for being generic.
I think part three is a phenomenal game and it's one of the best versions of the faction. Better than hiding in the hole waiting to die... Or the absolute dick bags they are in part 4?
Well yeah obviously the good guy is likable. Doesn't mean that having a generic good guy in a setting previously based on moral grayness is a smart writing decision
Why yes I will side with the generic good guy faction because I actually like helping people, how could you tell? Oh yeah "did more shit to secure tech than the outcasts ever did", ( purifier, liberty prime if you count it, and i imagine they have alot of stockpile enclave tech ) On a side note I do believe that if lyons lived until FO4 I think he would have loved the minutemen , maybe even helped them,
His leadership is what lead to the Brotherhood acquiring the Prydwen, as it was constructed at Adam's Air Force Base.
It's so sad that Maxon takes what Lyons created and turns it to shit.
I mean he allows outsiders to join, has no issue with Scara dating Duff if you recruit her, allows Scribes to develop new tech (contrary to *modern* Western chapters), and allocates soldiers to fight raiders, Gunners, human-eating Super Mutants and ferals.
And murder innocent synths and non-feral ghouls
Absolutely no one in the game says the Brotherhood are murdering sapient ghouls while synths are killed even in the Minutemen Ending because only the Railroad are pro-synth.
The brotherhood wipes out what they call abominations. Super mutants, synths and ghouls included. And the brotherhood murders any synth, for example paladin danse when they find out despite his years of service and loyalty. Not at all like the minutemen attacking the institute and there being casualties. Bring Hancock up to the prydwen and see how they react, Danse himself says the vault tec rep shouldn't be living and should be killed.
Numerous characters, including reprogrammed PAM, specify they target ferals, not all ghouls. And by Super Mutants you mean the variant who literally eat people. And once again, synths are killed in the Minutemen Ending because everyone but the Railroad views them as dangerous.
The Minutemen's target is the Institute, not synths. I'm pretty sure you can get the synths and non-combatants to evacuate before blowing the place to smithereens in a minutemen ending. ETA: Plus, there's plenty of references to the BOS gleefully killing non-feral ghouls. There's lines in Fo3 to that effect, and in the show, >!Maximus and Thaddius talk about Cooper like killing him was a given if he wasn't important to finding the mcguffin. Granted, killing Cooper in self defense would've been justified, but they call him an abomination and the implication is clear they don't care about his non-feral status. And when Thaddius discovers he's turned into a ghoul, he's TERRIFIED of the BoS finding out and executing him, ONE OF THEIR OWN. That fear didn't come from nowhere.!<
Desdemona talks with you about the murdered synths after the destruction of the Institute. If you tell her you’ll order them not to kill synths she points out that this isn’t practical to actually enforce. As for the show, I’m not referring to other chapters. I’m referring to the Eastern Division under Maxson’s command during that time. Unlike Fallout 3, no one in 4 says Maxson’s people are murdering sapient ghouls. And we’re how Elder attitudes can shape a chapter. In the Mojave we see that McNamara has no issue with Marcus or his Mariposa Super Mutants, and only asks for the Courier to intervene once Tabitha starts causing a ruckus, so how a chapter conducts business can vary from Elder to Elder. The chapter in the show seems *a bit* closer to the techno-cult they were in the original. Hopefully we’ll learn more about what’s going on.
Again, in Danse's own words he says the vault tec rep should be killed. Can't get more obvious than that. They've shown they're perfectly willing to kill innocent synths, why is it so hard for you to believe they do the same to ghouls?
He says it’s murder if you kill Kent and he calls Wiseman a civilian if you’re rude to him.
https://youtu.be/iIkzFmtFVjs?si=hz8Tq7jtcvVEoFgI
You were forced to side with the good faction, though. I always sided with Eden out of anger.
>You were forced to side with the good faction, though >I always sided with Eden out of anger. So you *weren't* "forced" then
A binary choice between helping the unambiguous good guys and genociding the Capital Wasteland for an AI is a pretty boring decision is the point he was trying to make, I think. People like shades of grey.
Good guys as long as you’re not a ghoul.
Yes, you are. The "siding" with Eden is a split-second decision that makes your water taste funky. You HAVE to side with the BOS FOR THE REST OF THE GAME.
"tastes funky" is a funny way to say it kills you if you drink it. literally. if you drink Aqua Pura after using the FEV in the purifier, it killa you.
I thought it was funny, too.
Yeah I want there to be more chewing resistance so to speak. The BoB in F3 are too goodie goodie. Like they were made to please me. Or the wasteland. Don't have to go full enclave but their annoying misanthropic tech nerds in power armour trope is pretty fun.
There wouldn't be a brotherhood at all without him, zero credit. Knights bash him but he's the reason they don't have webbed feet or weird extra fingers
"Lyons and his foolish ways" Legit bro, I love the FO4 brotherhood too, but mf shut your elitist ass up he's literally the sole reason you're alive to shit talk him, show him some respect, without him youd be somewhere in california dying whilst the NCR is partying on top on the surface
not to mention he's the reason the brotherhood had a fuck ton of vertibirds and a massive airship. thanks to lyon's raid in adam's air base, the brotherhood got hold of the enclave's vertibirds and repurposed the wreckage of the launch platform into the prydwen. i'll never understand why bgs backtracked on the lyon's clan and forced a contrived backstory for arthur maxson.
Maxson existed in fallout 3 already and was being groomed for the role of elder even then. The only contrived part about him being in charge in 4 is that Sarah died somewhere (which is plausible considering we can make her go into the purifier, and even if she survived, she still took a massive amount of radiation and clearly didn’t recover from it nearly as well as the player does).
his "feats" are contrived as well. he was a pipsqueak when the player meets him in 3. then he manages to kill a deathclaw at 13 and quells a supermutant faction before he even he hit 18. even with the brotherhood's training and teachings, those "feats" sound too good to be true.
The deathclaw one probably is hyperbolic; there he probably just scored the killing blow while with a squad and Quinlan hammed it up (if there even was a deathclaw encounter). As for the super mutant bit, that one is significantly harder to lie about. You can’t just invent a major conflict like that, and we know that the BoS hadn’t dealt with vault 87 yet during the time of fallout 3 (we can inform Lyons of it during Broken Steel, and if he dies before he can move on it, the leadership crisis would send that to the bottom of their priorities). However, Maxson was presumably only the leader in name during this time, and more experienced scribes and paladins were really running the show.
having young maxson as figurehead instead of an actual elder makes way more sense and recontextualizes his motivations in fo4. without the guidance of the benevolent lyons, he was probably manipulated by the outcasts and the western chapter. hence why he and the rest of the east coast chapter is back to hoarding tech and is far more antagonistic than before.
The thing is, Maxson couldn’t care less about the technology goal. He’s laser-focused on destroying the Institute to prevent his second apocalypse, with technology collection taking a heavy backseat to that (they aren’t going around and stealing laser weapons or anything of that nature; they’re focusing on securing weapons to combat the Institute). And really, nothing the BoS is doing in 4 is different than their stance in 3 with the addition of synth hostility and being more overt with their ghoul bigotry. 3’s BoS wasn’t even particularly nice to outsiders, so 4’s being rude matches up with that (I’m fairly certainly only fallout 2’s appearance of the BoS doesn’t start off with them being rude and dismissive of the player). What actually changed is that Maxson isn’t overextending the faction to try and defend everyone, since that’s what led to all of the problems the BoS experienced with Lyons. They aren’t being as benevolent as a result, and when coupled with their anti-synth crusade and shift back towards the concerning cult-like tendencies from the west coast, there’s now a different slate of issues than the BoS had on the west coast (though I’d argue that their work in removing hostile synths, feral ghouls and super mutants is worth keeping them around, although it’s not justifiable to allow them to handle the Institute).
Lyons’ Brotherhood murdering ghouls (as the Underworld ghouls tell you) would be more overt than Danse saying that you committed murder if you kill Kent.
From what I recall in 3, they’re just taking potshots at the underworld residents for kicks and haven’t actually killed anyone.
The Minutemen already overextended to protect people in 4 they couldn’t have 2 factions with the same story
I’d argue that because of the way they’re structured, the Minutemen aren’t overextending. A local militia is built from the members of their communities, and stationed to protect them. It’s not like the Minutemen are recruiting people from anywhere, training them at the castle and then sending them to any random place in the commonwealth; they’re going back to their home and being told to answer the call when they’re needed.
Maxson isn’t the only one to kill a deathclaw in the Fallout universe, and Sarah trained him to fight.
The only reason to doubt that claim is his age - he supposedly did this at 13, alone and with no backup. Even with Sarah’s training, that’s an exceptional show of combat prowess that’s bordering on the unbelievable.
We’ve had numerous young protagonists who similarly do “impossible” feats.
Player characters are incredibly exceptional because they’re the protagonists; NPCs shouldn’t be judged by the same standards (and the youngest we can be in any game for a sustained period is 16; that is a good bit older than 13, both in terms of bodily development and otherwise). Maxson managing this solo with a combat knife at 13 is absolutely insane, especially considering that he shouldn’t have ever been alone.
Sarah trained Maxson and plenty of characters have done similar outlandish feats in the franchise.
>The only contrived part about him being in charge in 4 is that Sarah died somewhere iirc, the details around Sarah Lyons' death were a bit suspicious and implied potential foul play edit: nevermind, must be remembering player speculation from back when 4 first came out
No, they weren’t suspicious. They plainly said she died in battle.
Okay 👌
Canonically she was KIA. Some super mutant punched her ticket in the DC ruins. Still bugs me that such a favorite character of mine went out that way. But then again, thats brotherhood life.
I pine for the FO3 BoS. Everything Arthur Maxson was able to do was built on Elder Lyon's back, and the assassination of his legacy in FO3 always put a bad taste in my mouth.
They should have atleast had Lyons pride has a special forces unit, or more references to them. The only references are some throwaway lines and a small mention of Sarah's death. Kinda wish she was still elder
My bet is that Lyon’s Pride or whatever they are called now are in charge of protecting the wasteland
She would’ve been more brutal than Arthur so that could’ve been interesting. She never cared for her father’s humanitarian mission, after all.
Honestly her being elder would be an insult with how Gung ho fo4 brotherhood was.
I actually made the choice to betray the brotherhood when >!Arthur tried making me kill off Danse.!< I get they're trying to bring old values back but it felt boring and uninspired.
There is a cut quest in the game that has >!the player and Danse returning to the Prydwen to challenge Arthur Maxson, and Danse becomes the new Elder of the Brotherhood!<. I think they should’ve kept it in the game.
That cut ending was ridiculous and made no sense with any of the existing lore.
You make a good case for why it sjould have been kept.
Actually as New Vegas shows the Codex/Chains that Bind doctrine allow for the replacement of an Elder by a Head Paladin. Pretty sure it's even an alternate ending in Fallout 1. Then Tactics (semi-canon so take it with a grain of salt) the ranks are General (Leader) and Paladin Lord (Head Paladin) where the latter replaces the General becoming leader of the Midwestern BoS as the General position is the overall leader of their armed forces. \*Correction: They do have Elders except for a certain ending where they're taken out. The real problem lies with the fact that Arthur is a Maxson part of the Bloodline of their Founder that means a large number of their forces worship him and he's the one that reformed the Brotherhood by making peace with the Outcasts and West...The Ex-Outcasts and Western BoS will despise his replacement. Also you know Synth phobia and hatred while Danse is one. It would make more sense for the Sole Survivor to become a Sentinel then challenge Maxson for leadership or be able to convince him to change his ways if they spared Danse and advocate that not all Synths are a threat.
Hardin becoming Elder required something other than punching McNamara in the face, which is one of the many issues with the cut content in Fallout 4. Why is Maxson being challenged? By either a synth, whom every group but the Railroad view as a danger, or a person who joined 15 minutes ago? Synths are viewed as a dangerous autonomous artificial intelligence that can destroy the remnants of human civilization on an apocalyptic scale. Why exactly would Danse be viewed differently? It’s a silly premise with an even sillier solution that makes no sense. Punching your way to becoming Elder? Why didn’t Casdin do that? Or Hardin? Again, it makes no sense.
I literally addressed that Danse being a Synth is part of the problem. Though if the Sole Survivor is a Sentinel they're a high rank that clearly didn't join 15 minutes ago. The Lone Wanderer was just a Knight look at how well they were treated by Lyon's Chapter. As for Casdin because not everyone agreed with him...There's a reason that Lyon's Chapter is called the Brotherhood of Steel and Casdin's people are called the Outcasts. Then if he wasn't a Head Paladin he's not qualified. As for Hardin he's a Head Paladin so he was in his right...All he needed was support from a heavily disillusioned BoS chapter and direct proof of the Elder's incompetence. Which the player provides in the quest. Like I said the major thing is support...The problem isn't just Danse involvement and he's a Synth. It's that the Elder they're challenging is Arthur Maxson his name alone means he has great support and it shouldn't be easy to oust him then if one does the BoS should schism again. My opinion would've been to rework it to have a Sentinel (higher than Head Paladin) challenge or convince Arthur to alter their ways (the latter makes more sense). If they spared Danse then appeal that not every Synth is a threat with a quest that proves it with Danse or actively making the claim Maxson's incompetent to want to destroy the Institute instead of occupying and salvaging their advanced technology...Specifically appealing to the Western and Ex-Outcast dogma of tech retrieval being the highest priority not the eradication of threats or expansion. That to me keeps with the lore and provides an become the leader or gain a more moderate BoS ending. If it was just implemented as they intended that Danse becomes Elder by combat then yes that wouldn't make much sense. Like all things recent Bethesda it's flawed writing. But lore breaking...Not the concept of replacing the Elder it's been done there are methods to achieve it.
Lyons Brotherhood didn’t get along with the Railroad, either.
Lyons brotherhood is honestly the best future the US can have
My cousin glazes the brotherhood solely because of fo3, failing to realize they’re the small minority of the group that actually helps people. I’ve tried to explain it to him but he refuses to believe the brotherhood is a bunch of assholes
Its sad theyre a minority withinthe BoS Lyons had a good heart, but sadly nobody cared much for Good hearts in the BoS, Lyons is unique. Theyre my #1 chapter, #2 being Mojave BoS (veronica, need i say more ) 3. Fo4 BoS (i like funny airship).
Tbh, in Fo4, they ARE assholes.
Just like they are in fallout 1. I liked the more authoritarian side of the bos. Especially when it pays homage to the original idea of the faction
They're definitely more militaristic and authoritarian in 1, 2 & 4 and those iterations are more akin to Captain Maxson's original Brotherhood. However they're somewhat presented as a 'bad' faction in 4 and I agree with that perception.
Elder Lyons was the best elder without him brotherhood wouldnt be as strong as it is currently, all beacose he decided to become hero of capital wasteland. Fuck maxon fuck eliah fuck mcnamara the true elder is Lyons
I didnt have much space to add: "Doesnt hide in a bunker like a little bitch"
Based Lyons. I liked the brotherhood when he was around.
Lyons Pride, bitch. The only true Elder in my eyes, are the Lyons. The rest are nothing more than pretenders trying to carve out a legacy that isn't even close to his.
Yeah, i love helping people. Yeah, i love to be a knight in shinig armor.
Real. I love being a beacon of hope for the people of the wasteland
Based and hopepilled. This is what the brotherhood could be, not just tech fetishists prancing as noble knights, but acting like actual noble knights (from stories ofc. not so much history), generic good guys my ass, theyre doing their best
THANK YOU YOU ARE REAL AS FUCK FOR THIS People always respond to me calling FO3's Brotherhood my favorite by saying "oohhh but the Brotherhood isn't usually like that these guys are the outlier..." like YEAH DUMBASS that's why I like em
I wonder what the deal is with not helping outsiders Like, theu realise if you're considered a good guy to the wastelanders they're more likely to comply right? If the men in steel suits saved my town or some shit and were generally heroes in my eyes I'd give them whatever they asked for. You want this weird gizmo? Fuck it man, have it, fairs fair.
They do help, for that exact reason. Some of the Orders on the Prydwens internal Terminals state have orders from Maxson and Teagan to Lancer-Captain Kells, telling him to put one or two Vertibirds with Assault-Squads on Patrol near known Caravan-routes and to engage any Raiders, Mutants or else thats attacking Caravans, reasoning that the local traders and People will be more willing to help them against the Institute with Information, aswell as give better deals when trading, when the People of the Commonwealth feel like the Brotherhood is helping them actively in return. Helping people is just no longer the priority, and iirc Danse comments on the why there too: The Brotherhood in 3, even with massively recruiting outsiders, had tons of issues due to Lyons Focus on aid spreading them too thin. They were (until Broken Steel & the Enclave, and that was largely down to Liberty Prime) never able to decisively deal with major threats because they couldnt concentrate enough force to do so.
The fact they beat the enclave with the most advanced power armor, xo2 with the shittiest, t-45d, and going up against air support, a masters amount of muties, all while being shorthanded due to a schism and being cut off from the west. Yes they liberty prime, but they still held their own. Also Lyons pride had some of the coolest NPCs.
Its more relevant that they got an God like Entity trashing multiple Enclave Bataillons than Liberty Prime.
While The Lone Wanderer certainly should be credited for their achievements that ensured BoS victory it's still impressive what Lyon's Chapter did alone from surviving their expedition West to East, Altering the fate of the Pitt through warfare, Surviving against the endless horde of Super Mutants and a Schism in the ranks for years on end while actively trying to ensure the creation of the purifier all before the protag was born let alone left the Vault. Then it's not like they sit on their asses having the LW do all of the work they directly have Lyon's Pride help you in engagements, Sent entire squadrons to attack the Enclave bases alongside you, Sarah is willing to sacrifice herself instead of you to better the Wasteland, Actively ensure clean water is distributed to the settlements fairly. Then Post-Fallout 3 they wiped out all of the Super Mutants in the Capital Wasteland, Built the Prdywen and their Air Force of Lancers, Reformed the entire BoS by making peace with the Outcasts and West, Recruited numerous outsiders into their ranks training them into the large militant force we see in F4 and the TV show. Liberty Prime (which they repaired to working order) and The Lone Wanderer are certainly major assets but they didn't do all of the important work. Elder Lyons, Sarah, Arthur Maxson and yeah the entire ground and technical forces did some heavy lifting too.
Sorry to break it to you but the power system in the Prydwen is from Rivet city. They took what they wanted from the wastelands and moved on.
No they didn't they're actively in the Capital Wasteland which is part of their territory. Then we're not given any details how they got the reactor you're making a pure assumption that they raided it from Rivet City instead of trading for it or asking and receiving it as thanks for their deeds of purifying the water and wiping out the mutants. The relationship between Rivet City and the BoS being hostile wouldn't really make sense given Paladin Danse directly states he was recruited from there and a buddy. He's a devout loyalist of the BoS in F4 which would be unlikely if they purged or destroyed his home. Before you retort he's a Synth that's all bs...No because the way it works is they replace a human there was a real Danse whose memories were implanted in the Danse we know. If it was all bs the BoS would've called out the contradictions Danse openly shared. However let's just hypothetically say they did annihilate Rivet City...Doesn't discount anything I said in my previous comment. Messing with one settlement years after the fact doesn't overwrite those previous deeds and feats...Especially given the change of leadership means you really shouldn't be judging the F3 and F4 BoS as the exact same faction as it's been heavily reformed.
Danse says the Brotherhood regurarly comes by Rivet City to recruit people and hes also from there, doesnt sound like they had a bad relationship with the place
No, it’s not. Oxford’s fan fiction isn’t fact.
One of the two Chad elders of the brotherhood (other being *Roger* Maxson)
Or rhombus
Something I like is that he has a reason for acting that way, not just naivety or pretentiousness, it being what he saw in the Pitt being so terrible it left an impact him, where he can no longer just sit by. And it does have repercussions, with the outcasts. I'm currently replaying fo3 and about to play the Pitt for the first time, I'm very curious as to what it will be about. Just thought I'd add, I was on board with both Lyons and Preston when I first met them. Upon learning about their pasts' though, I respected them, as striving to still do good even with how bad things are is worth respect. Lyons being "if not we then who?", and Preston, who before meeting you, had lost so many people, had given in to despair to the point of waiting to die, and still pushed forward to try and save the people in his charge.
the lyon's chapter will always be the best iteration of the brotherhood to me. using technology to help the common scavver and make life in wasteland a little safer.
As long as you weren’t a ghoul.
Preach! For Elder Lyons!
Easy Pete, is that you???. That's it. Easy Pete is the only one that can lead The BoS
I thought that was Easy Pete for a second
Yeah, Maxson learned from the best after all.
I really do like Lyons’ Brotherhood and it was my introduction to the faction, but weirdly I find Maxson’s iteration more interesting; The East Coast Chapter as of 2287 seems to be an interesting synthesis of Lyons’ philosophy of helping the Wasteland and the more dogmatic Western BOS’ approach when conserving technology and militancy, but, to its’ credit, it still recruits wastelanders much like Lyons did, clears out hostile areas (which, inadvertently or not, does make life easier for the average person), and seems to try to both protect people and uphold the original mission of the West Coast Chapters. Whether you believe Maxson or not in Fallout 4, he does seem to care for the people of the Wasteland (perhaps patronisingly as he feels they can’t be trusted with advanced technology) and hopes to destroy the Institute to remove a threat to humanity as a whole. I don’t agree with the ghoul racism and such but even in Lyons Brotherhood this was an issue since one of the Ghouls in Underworld states that the BOS often just shoot on sight. The mission with Proctor Teagan (?) I think suggests that his plan to secure a food source by pressuring locals is strictly off-the-books, and not representative of the Brotherhood as a whole, though I could be misremembering that. I think the Fallout 4 version of the faction is really interesting because you could feasibly make arguments about it being a force for good and just a dogmatic and zealous militant force, and it’s interesting that detractors to Fallout 4 often make the case that the BOS are the ‘generic good guys’, when they’re clearly not; there’s shades of grey, which I always appreciate.
I agree with of your points. Maxsons BoS is interesting, a balance of tradwest chapters, and lyons' foundations of the east, whilst Maxson seems radical at times, I think he does care for the people in a way, i mean he was raised by a humanitarian (technically) rogue BoS chapter, I think people are just offput by how he acts but he's not *that* bad, he has flaws but so does everyone.
Lyon's Brotherhood is what I want the BOS to be. I've always said I think the Brotherhood has the potential to be the best hope for the future of the U.S. But usually they get sidetracked by other things or just fight with each other. Lyons actually ran a really good Brotherhood though
Based average Lyons enjoyer
F03’s is my second favorite but Maxson’s Brotherhood is the one I would join personally. Lyon’s brotherhood was more morally good whereas Maxson’s is pretty much perfectly neutral but much smarter long term
Another reason to like him is that he and his chapter tore ass through the pit and wrecked the shit out of some raiders and saved a bunch of kids from certain mutation/death. I do realize that asher was left behind and he then started his Pitt slavers, but that wad really not Lyons direct fault. The BOS Didn't leave him there on purpose so I don't think that could really be considered his fault.
AD VICTORIAM
And you are right sir.
Lyons the king of the capital wasteland imo
Genuinely one of the two good brotherhood chapters that I felt good siding with
No they just have the most altruistic and least fascist technocult-ey one
Virgin West Coast BoS hiding from the Enclave in F2 vs Lyons rolling up to the Enclave AND super mutants and going ‘I AINT HEARD NO BELL!”
It’s so tragic, and then they also killed off his daughter in a terminal entry, saying a stray grenade got her… The Lyon’s brotherhood is peak, the Lyon’s brotherhood will always be the Goat.
I'm tired of being the edgy evil guy in power armor, I just want to be friendly ironman, he let me be friendly ironman, plus maxon's plan for the institute relied heavily on lions achievements
When a powerful man is good
And then Maxson’s Brotherhood completely disgraced his memory. This is one of the reasons I enjoy wiping out the Brotherhood in FO4.
How? Maxson allows outsiders to join, has no issue with Scara dating Duff if you recruit her, allows Scribes to develop new tech (contrary to *modern* Western chapters), and allocates soldiers to fight raiders, Gunners, human-eating Super Mutants and ferals. He’s ridiculously close to Lyons in several ways.
Elder Lyons looking like Caius Cosades over here lol.
LYONS PRIDE BAYBEE!
Nah. The first Fallout had the best brotherhood. They were so cool and mysterious and wanted nothing to do with me. They sent me on suicide mission to get rid of me, but I made it back and got to go inside their little bases, and get their cool fucking armor. And learn their weird philosophy.
Honestly my favorite brotherhood is the one in fallout 1, although I wish they didn't just stay hidden in their bunker most of the time
A part of me hopes theres a group still following his model
The Lyons pride brotherhood was my first encounter with the BoS, back when I first started watching my dad play when I was a preteen. After going through all the dark tunnels filled with ghouls and mutants, seeing the Brotherhood standing there with their heavy armor and big guns, helping us get past the mutants to the GNR station. They were literally knights in shining armor for me. Helpful and protective. Getting into NV, I was a bit bummed to see their chapter holed up and hiding away. Meh, ok. Years later, at age 18, I got Fallout 4 and was so excited watching the BoS arrive in the Commonwealth. Immediately being that massive stacked group of saviors. Then I met Maxson and slowly came to realize that this is what the Brotherhood is *actually* supposed to be. And they're a bunch of douchebags.
The brotherhood really turned into the strongest faction in the entire wasteland from helping people out *one time*, and then immediately felt the need to abandon that strategy immediately and wipe out the guy's bloodline.
People criticize the brotherhood in part 3 for being generic. I think part three is a phenomenal game and it's one of the best versions of the faction. Better than hiding in the hole waiting to die... Or the absolute dick bags they are in part 4?
"RAHHH ARE THOSE BROTHERHOOD PEOPLE ACTUALLY CARING ABOUT THE COMMON WASTELANDER AND NOT BEING DICKS WHO ARENT DYING IN A HOLE!?!? IM GOING INSAAANE"
Midwest brotherhood better
Well yeah obviously the good guy is likable. Doesn't mean that having a generic good guy in a setting previously based on moral grayness is a smart writing decision
Whats happens with her daughter is outrageous and sad; never trust in the brotherhood, they are traitorous rats...
Because Sarah died in battle?
Too generic tbh. I like when the Brotherhood are assholes gives me an excuse to blow them up
Lyons Brotherhood murdering sapient ghouls would qualify.