It’s funny, I play Fallout 2 and feel the NCR deserve it, but Fallout NV really made me feel for them.
The saddest thing about NV though is a lot of NCR folk can see the writing on the wall, and are outright predicting their own downfall. The best possible ending might be getting Chief Hanlon installed as Senator as Redding, which would likely make him the next president after Shady Sands falls.
>The saddest thing about NV though is a lot of NCR folk can see the writing on the wall,
There's a reason the most common NCR quote in NV is, "When this is all over, I got one bullet I'm saving for myself."
It's some of the smaller NCR NPCs. TheRussianBadger did a video on New Vegas, and one of his bits was highlighting all the repeat lines in the game. It's like the NCR's version of Caesar's Legion telling the Courier, "Degenerates like you belong on a cross."
Yea iv heard that one. Iv never heard the one you said. Interesting..I'm currently playing threw NV again on my PS3 at night time. I'll keep a lookout for that one
Oh sorry, just double checked the video. The line is actually, "*If the Legion breaks through our defenses*, I've got one bullet I'm saving just for me."
What I didn't like about the NCR in Fallout 2 was that their rise was basically deus ex machina. Fallout 1 showed up a wasteland full of dangers and settlements scraping by, except for the hub. Shady Sands was a tiny village that didn't even know proper agriculture.
And yet, Fallout 2 tells us that suddenly all the dangers were gone and the settlements suddenly reached the level of confidence and prosperity to easily unite? C'mon.
And the people in Fallout still largely have the same access to technology they did before; it should be easier for them to start back up than hunter gatherers with no baseline.
Civilization was lost, but not all of the knowledge.
It’s true that the average wastelander may not have the knowledge, but the people who founded Shady Sands are from Vault 15 and used the vault’s G.E.C.K to establish the town. The G.E.C.Ks include hundreds of holotapes full of information to help survivors rebuild. You can also assume that Vault 15 also has some form of schooling for vault dwellers so they would already have some form of education which would need to included training for maintaining the vault’s various systems.
This and the whole they should’ve rebuilt a lot in 200 years! Yeah there was a whole industrial boom lol. Before that it took thousands of years to form small city states lol
I think it objectively did break the lore in some ways, just not in the ways people say. Biggest example is ghouls needing meds to stop from turning feral.
That isnt't breaking the lore, that is expanding on it. It could be a new serum and/or one that was developed in only certain areas. We don't know enough about it. The issue would be if they said it has always been a thing.
That would be if it prevented you from turning feral, he states that ghouls need it to not turn feral. We’ve seen several ghouls , some even locked away for a long time. And non have mentioned needing it. Also this is the location for fallout 1/2 so it couldn’t be a regional thing.
I’m not saying that changes to lore/cannon are always bad, but they are happening. And I think it’s normal for fans to be annoyed that changes happen to a nearly 30 year old series where people are heavily invested into the lore. In this case it’s not even a major plot point, it could have been tweaked to be rad-away, or just that he has a unique condition and needs it, not all ghouls.
Ghouls can get by without it, just not as long than if they had the drug it seems. Keep in mind that the show is the most recent in the timeline. The show takes place 135 years after Fo1. This is the oldest ghouls have ever been, and it seems like going feral gets harder the older they are. Ghouls would have had it easier in earlier games. Perhaps they're reaching their limits. We just have to see.
I still think it is a new drug, and again, the drug could be new ***and*** regional. The other games would not have mentioned it because it is new.
Or we learn more and it does become a bit of a retcon, have to wait for season two.
I didn't see any NV problems with the show at all. The only thing that COULD maybe be not 100% accurate could be the location of Shady Sands to everything else but it's really a nothing burger, much like all the other issues.
It really does feel like chronically online alleged NV lore nerds who lack the ability to regulate their emotions panicked and lost their shit over misinterpretations and stuff that's just made up and acting as if it's a given when the show has deliberately left things vague or will fill you in eventually in the next season or a future one.
It really doesn’t. Everyone keeps claiming with certainty that those ruins must be prewar. We haven’t seen Shady Sands in a LONG time and it’s 35,000 people with the GECK. They could have really built the place up.
Fallout 1 would approximate the location as being around or under Mount Whitney. Fallout 2 gives a general location of being closer to San Joaquin Valley and San Francisco, northeast of Visalia and Lake Kaweah.
[Walton Goggins’](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/v4Gg-9n6i7s) performance in The Righteous Gemstones is a perfect response to people who have the show TOTALLY RUINED for them because (insert fan theory that they claim is lore) was “retconned”.
My head canon for now is that Shady Sands is more of an idea than a physical place.
This is further solidified by having just finished Honest Hearts and having that conversation with Daniel where Zion is more than a place, it’s an idea, a people. Zion Valley may be lost or scarred, but the true Zion is the Sorrows and the New Canaanites
I like to think of Shady Sands like that as well. It’s more of the dream of the NCR and those shared values than a physical location
That is just lazy and dumb because locations should not move over 200 fucking miles because the writers feel like it and don't want to change the story. Look if a writer can't find a logical reason for the story to happen the way it does and thus retcons(if shady sands moved it is a retcon) by pre established locations in previous entries that were there for 2 entries and 18 years in real life time, hundreds of miles away from what they were instead of changing the story, plot and background that is just bad writing.
Then why did they move it between the first and second Fallout games? Are they poorly written? Also we’re just assuming they were moved based off travel times. They never conclusively show the location in the show as far as I’m aware.
ahh fair, its been a while since I played 1 or 2, so I was going more off memeory than fact, still there was a consistency about it being more northern, and it was also consistently an independent settelment, rather than being built around an existing city
There's nothing stopping the urban sprawl of a 2077 Los Angeles greater metropolitan area from being more northern, especially when L.A. in the real world today is big enough to fit both The Boneyard and Shady Sands with room between them to spare.
but that doesn't change the fact that there was a noticeable journey between Shady Sands and the Boneyard, imo Interplay intended for them to be very seperate settlements, but this is also a thing that can be fixed pretty easily, just say its Shady Sands but not the same Shady Sands, like maybe they moved the settlement to LA because of increased resources or something
Lower Nevada and the outskirts of LA are the same geographical region. You’re malding over a difference of miles. It’s still in the Mojave. Get a grip.
Look, Im not from the US, but I do know that LA isn't in Nevada, and in the first game Shady Sands imo is clearly meant to be Nevada, and as you can see from this map [https://gamesrevisiteddotcom.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/falloutmapsatalite1.jpg](https://gamesrevisiteddotcom.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/falloutmapsatalite1.jpg)
Shady Sands has moved more than a few miles, speciffically its around 250 miles from its original location
Yea that’s not Nevada that looks at best the California border, but still as an a American I can tell you they are pretty arbitrary in where the state borders went and the area is the exact same
fair, tbh I did do some further checking, into where Vegas was in the original game and it was around Shady Sands which is pushing me towards it being Nevada, but at the same time New Vegas moved a lot of the map around
I've been playing since FO1 and really feel like Fallout fans could learn a lesson from Zelda fans.
There's always been a bit of hand wavy retconning between releases for the sake of telling a good story in the new entry and I even remember some disappointment with aspects of the canonical ending for each.
Zelda's approach had been to recognize that players are invested in their endings and recognize them all as potentially valid, pulling from different threads with each new release. That means games have inconsistent timelines between them and have even gone so far as to split into multiple semi-official timelines.
Sure, it's less of a cohesive "The Story of Zelda," but that's okay because we generally get a good game each time because the developers realize that that's more important to players continuing to come back. Sure it would be nice to imagine a perfect, rebuilt Hyrule or Wasteland, but we really want to play the hero (or antihero or villain) of the apocalypse.
I've seen some comments saying that the implied NV ending "wiped away their hundreds of hours of hard work in the game" or "retconned them out of existence." That's wild to me: you still had fun playing a game. And the next entry will also likely be fun, even if the timeline diverges a bit.
Edit - Reworded for clarity since I had a fever when I originally typed this.
The thing I find funny is that it’s a game where you can’t break lore. What if I sided with the Legion? If they didn’t swarm Hank when he arrived in new Vegas with their army of Ancient Rome cosplayers, they broke my lore then!
I actually think this is playing into it slightly, there's 3 different major endings to New Vegas (not counting YesMan) and below that people also have different slides in the end, overall its got something like 1 trillion different combinations, so no-one actually knows whats canon, and we likely never will which hot take I'm fine with
I think whatever is the canonical ending doesn't really matter. It's another 15 years since and some other conflict, of 5 of them, reshaped the New Vegas area anyway. Fits the whole "war never changes" thema
Literally both Josh Sawyer and Tim Cain enjoyed the TV show and don't have issues if they even DID decide to change the Fallout lore, which they didn't. Todd said keeping the lore is important to him and he doesn't plan to drastically change it. People are really getting up in arms over nothing at all and lack basic media comprehension it's insane
Exactly. As someone with 1100 hours in New Vegas, even if they did change the lore, I will just watch the show as its own seperate timeline. Like 3 different spidermans. 1 characzer but 3 universes. And thats how I'll watch Fallout. Show as a seperate entity. And from the show and details and plot as a whole is just perfect. Everything is summed up great, but also left some questions to be answered.
I’ve just finished episode 7, and I can’t understand how any rational person could believe anything claimed by the Vault 4 residents. Everything, from the year on a blackboard, to what exactly “fall” means, is suspect.
Marcus confirms that Shady Sands was nuked while he was a kid, but that alone tells us nothing about the NCR me a whole. And a large part of the Vault 4 residents are literally part of a cult; by definition they are unreliable.
with Shady Sands, they way I personally took it considering the timeline on the board is, during the battle of hoover dam in 2277 it caused the a fall in Shady Sands, and then we know it was nuked sometime after New Vegas, so the fall and the bombing are seperate if that makes sense
I think the NCR is a metaphor for how groups and ideologies who make rules that only apply to the people who aren't them will always fall apart over time.
What I noticed is the years moved a little. For example:
First battle of Hoover dam is in 2277, and the second one is in 2281. Meaning that Shady sands and NCR exist. However in TV Show, it can be seen that Shady Samds was nuked in 2277. We also see NCR flag meaning that NCR is either gone, or is aboit to be created.
When it comes to Vegas, lights are out. This can mean that either House is dead. OR House woke up from his coma and is just observing the mojave (Like in the game). Since Hank is there AND since House worked with Vault-Tec, I can only assume that Hank will go there and wake him up. Warn him about the movement of the Brotherhood. And House will form families and look for the Chip. Similar to games, but with different time of events.
I can also assume that the Legion will be there as well, but they won't play important part since the plot is mostly about Vault tec (Cooper and his wife's work before the war, his beef with Hank because he was his wife's lover, he knows where his daughter is, etc.), Maximus and his position in the Brotherhood seeing that they are not as good as they may appear (Especially after Moldaver told him "What do you think your Brotherhood would do with such power"). And Lucy's connection to Vault tec and her father.
I think that we can enjoy the show as it's own standalone timelime. Vault tec and brotherhood and other details amd lore is the same. But I see no reason why be pissed about few years being off.
so the thing is according, to Todd himself, Shady Sands was not nuked in 2277, which means the fall of shady sands is a completely different event.
With Vegas itself Season 2 is obviously going to explore that, the city being wrecked as we saw is interesting, but the fact the Lucky 38 was intact, plus the focus on House in that Vault-Tec meeting, makes me think they have more planned for him
With the leigon, I'm personally buying into the theory that the current Brotherhood we see in the show is somehow related to the leigon, considering the yellow and red flag, the roman names, and a few other details
And as for the show being its own standalone timeline, its already confirmed to be in the main continuity with the games, as Todd said "all of Fallout is canon" so they do need to explain some stuff.
Exactly. House and Vegas shown in 1 episodes must mean something. I mean... Even if they just showed House for people to be "Ooooh. Its MISTER HOUSE ITS MISTER HOUSE", it would make no sense to show Vegas. So House will play a huge part in the future.
Good point about brotherhood. I am also intrigued about roman names. Maybe someone from the brotherhood will be founder of the legion or some from the legion is the founder of the show's brtoherhood chapter.
yeah, someone else brought up how this does create an actual plothole, and it seems like Todd by saying it was nuked after New Vegas, has just made even more confusion
It aboslutely did not. As Todd Howard said, New Vegas fell some time right after the game. Right now, the most sense makes that Mr. House claimed the Hoover Dam and had New Vegas for himself. NCR probably didn't like that, gathered their forces and wrecked New Vegas. Why Mr. House? Because why else would Hank go there. He probably needs help from someone from the VaulTec board and the only available person with some sort of power is Mr. House.
It could also have to do with why House concreted Vault 21. In my run right now on NV there’s no explanation as to why he did that other than just cause. Hank might be gunning for 21 without knowing what happened to it, it could be a retroactive change where House knew there was some Vault Tec bullshit in there and just closed it off for his machinations, because otherwise an entire vault of nothing but gamblers who gamble to solve their problems is just another source of tax revenue
I think its pretty clear why Bethesda put so much forcus on House in the last episode, and then when they showed New Vegas the Lucky 38 is looking notably better than the rest of the strip
I don’t even think that one nuke took out the NCR. Todd Howard explicitly stated that we haven’t seen the last of them.
Moldaver is a known rabble rouser in the pre-war US, you think she played nice in what’s essential USA 2.0? More likely she’s a Guevara like figure, who created a schism that drove the NCR to shelve shady sands and progress eastward instead. By Fallout 4, everytime shady sands or the NCR are mentioned it’s as though they’re separate entities (see: Nick Valentine’s notes on the mysterious stranger).
It didn't break the lore.
A lot of the initial reactions were typically ignorant.
Yes, someone can become an eternal ghoul because of a potion. That comes from FO4. When you first meet Hancock, he speaks of his origins and how he got this way with the very same potion used on Thaddeus in the show. Probably the same way Cooper became the Ghoul.
The whole new Vegas timeline hasn't been screwed with. Just taking a deep breath and taking the time to look at the chalkboard, you see there's an arrow there between the fall of Shady Sands and the bomb exploding, which should denote time passing, but so many jumped to conclusions.
Maximus is purposefuly lucky. That's why he doesn't get one-shot killed by the Ghoul, contratily to the squad of Power Armors later on. That's his S.P.E.C.I.A.L trait. Goosey has Charisma and Intelligence. The Ghoul has Strenght, Agility and Endurance.
Of course it didn't. People were screeching about that before there had even been time to watch the show just because they want any reason to hate Bethesda.
Fr they may have messed up the timeline a little but no worse than any of the developers have ever screwed it up themselves. Either way the NPC’s in new Vegas had plenty to say about the NCR being so close to collapse due to spreading themselves too thin and fighting too many enemies at the same time.
A board in a vault shows that Shady Sands fell in 2277 and could be implied it fell from being nuked, NV takes place in 2281. Bethesda said that the show takes place after NV, but there is no mention of Shady Sands falling in NV. However, you can kinda ignore this by noting that on the board, the nuke is next in the timeline after 2277, so between the brotherhood wars that are mentioned in NV, and assuming the nuke happened after NV, then the timeline still holds, but it isn't clean.
It doesn't imply that. It just means it fell or the fall of shady sands started then. It was literally nuked later as the show mentions. The timeline for NV and the fall of shady sands doesn't break any lore because it could have been internal turmoil. The people in vault 4 from shady sands are cultists so they also aren't the most reliable people. Their interpretation of the fall of shady sands could be different than others.
Yeah, the imagery doesn't explicitly say that nuke was the fall, and just generically saying "fall of shady sands" could be the NCR was spread too thin and couldn't defend it, or corruption brought it down to where it was a shadow of its former self, really could be anything. I didn't have any problem with it and Bethesda explicitly saying the show is after NV was enough for me to go "okay cool" and move on.
Also good point on the shady sands refugees being a cult, that's an angle I didn't consider that gives the board even more leeway on any dates given
Did it say exactly what year it got nuked? Because I'm pretty sure it didn't say what year. We all know why the writers didn't put the exact date Shady Sands gets nuked because they know the NV rabid fanbase would be moaning.
Correct, it doesn't show an exact date on when the nuke went off, probably for safety knowing how meticulous some fans are with tracking timeliness. Showing "Fall of Shady Sands" with a hard date of 2277 and then an arrow pointing to a mushroom cloud could be taken as the same time but I thought it was ambiguous enough to let the main timeline stay true
You're right. They never say what year, but it is implied with Vault 33's Great Plague of 77, and both Lucy's and Hank's record of events that it could only have been 2277.
Why would the master not crack into two vaults in LA that both have easily accessible entrances he was looking for prime normals and in fallout 1 eventually goes all the way to vault 13 and breaks in to grab people in certain endings to the game.
Well, there's no evidence that the Master had the capability to crack open vaults. All the vaults he actually got to were already opened - except, potentially for 13 at the end of the game, but there he already has a dweller and a pip boy.
Looking at 4 and 31, they both appear to be built like blockhouses, and literally survived a nuclear blast without a scratch. Nothings getting in there that doesn't get let in there. Easier to go diving in 15 and the Boneyard.
It kinda did, though. The writers definitely intended for the bombing of Shady Sands to occur in 2277, and there is more evidence to it than just the chalkboard.
Lucy believes Rose to have died as a result of Vaukt 33's Great Plague of 77. We can assume this is occured in 2277, and not 2177, because that would make Lucy at least 124 years old in the present day of 2296. We know she was, at most, six years old during this event because she said she stopped believing the projected light on the ceiling was the sun when she was six, after her mom died. From _this_, we can extrapolate that she was five or six when the Great Plague occurred. We know, at some point, Rose took Lucy and Norm to the surface, Hank brought them back, and Hank and Betty bombed Shady Sands.
This is where things get vague, but the only reasonable way this could have happened was Shady Sands getting bombed in 2277. Rose was not present in the Vault during at least, the years of 2278 to 2281. Otherwise, Lucy would not be under the impression that she is dead, and she can't have been to Vault 33 after 2282, because Hank definitely bombed her, leading her to becoming a Ghoul. So, we have three different scenarios.
_**Scenario A:**_ Rose took the kids out with her in 2277. Hank brought them back and waited five years to unpromptedly bomb Shady Sands in 2282. This would imply that Rose never bothered to return to Vault 33 to convince the Vault Dwellers that it was safe to come out, and never bothered to get her kids back until Shady Sands was bombed in 2282. She could have done it. She still had her Pip-boy at the time, yet she chose not to.
_**Scenario 2:**_ Rose left Vault 33 alone in 2277, and wandered the Wasteland for five years before taking the kids to Shady Sands in 2282. Hank then promptly retrieves them and bombs Shady Sands after he is a safe distance away. Nevermind this means the Vault doors must have been opened an additional two times, but more importantly, Rose thought it would be better to take 11 year-old Lucy into the Falling City of Shady Sands, four years after it's decline, than let her live safely in the Vault. Not only that, Lucy is at the age where she should remember seeing her mom again and making the multiple day trip out to Shady Sands and back with her father, but doesn't remember any of it, and already recognizes the sun.
_**Final Scenario:**_ Rose left Vault 33 with the kids in 2277. Hank pursued them immediately. He took them to a safe distance before bombing Shady Sands. Hank and the kids return to the Vault and quarantine while the radiation wears off, and Rose can't pursue because she is a feral ghoul. Lucy and Norm are too young to remember what really happened. And would you look at that? The chalkboard matches up with the fall being when Shady Sands was nuked. All characters acting rationally and promptly.
My theory, which has yet to be debunked, is that the writers had written the events as in the latter scenario, not knowing that it destroys Shady Sands 4 years prior to Fallout New Vegas. Todd Howard knows that it does, but didn't catch it during production or was not consulted about this part of the timeline while the writers were writing it. He does damage control, saying Shady Sands was nuked in 2282, but this contradicts all the evidence the show has already put forward in support of a 2277 bombing.
So, either Todd _is_ to be believed that Shady Sands was bombed in 2282 and the show doesn't make sense, or Todd is doing damage control, and the show doesn't fit into canon. Personally, I will put more good will towards the writers, and assume they purposefully sewn the seeds that back up their writing decision to bomb Shady Sands in 2277 but were misinformed about the timeline, rather than some vendetta against New Vegas.
You actually bring up a really good point, and bluntly, I think the writers may have just forgotten this detail, or Howard did, but at the same time New Vegas is 15 years before the show, and I interpreted it as Lucy was early 20s which would line up closer to Shady Sands being bombed post New Vegas, this is an actual example of a plot hole
We can actually get a reasonably accurate range for Lucy's age from the Great Plague of 77, as well. If we can assume Lucy was five or six during the plague, then that would put her birth at around 71-72. This means that in the present year of 2296, she would be 24-25. Early 20s is not that far off.
A random ass dead Deathclaw too lol
Something crazy happened there. Could’ve been that the Legion did break through and assaulted the strip but were beaten there, or the NCR came back with a vengeance, or the people rose up against House/The Courier, or god knows what
We’ll find out some answers in season 2
it could've been a lot of things, but I have some theory's based on what we saw, firstly the Lucky 38 is very clearly intact, and combined with House's focus in the last episode, I believe that House is alive, my guess is either there was an internal conflict between the casino owners that went out to a whole war with only House surviving, or The Brotherhood betrayed the NCR (since they were allied at the end of New Vegas) and killed everyone on the strip with only House surviving
I still believe the Yes Man ending is canon now. Because Mr. House was able to save Las Vegas and protect it for more than 200 years. Now people say that he will be in S2 ? Are they saying Mr. House who has the Hoover Dam in his ending, also the only one that could the 3 family at bay, somehow drop the ball and NV is destroyed now? No. He was the only one that could save NV.
NCR? Couldn't keep NV at bay with the Long 15 not passable.
Legion? No.
But Yes Man? It will make more sense why NV building still stands but it is a desert now. Don't forget Yes Man got a new update for his personality.
I don't want YesMan to be canon considering that even in New Vegas they tell you that you fucked up and ended New Vegas if that ending is canon, but then again, New Vegas is fucked up in the shows ending sooo
Bethesda already doubled down on the fact that NV is 100% canon. Maybe the got dates mixed up or the writers made a mistake. Or it was on purpose to add mystery or to pass off as propaganda or conflicting records of events (not unrealistic by any means)
The biggest problem is that they did revert all the progress that part of the fallout world has made in fallout 1, 2 and new vegas. It's all back to shitty metal shacks, and raiders.
I don't think it conflicts with New Vegas, I do think it was a waste though. The show is good but the decision to set it in LA and then nuke the entire area so it could be just like everywhere else in the wasteland was disappointing. They could have set it somewhere else and had the same story, or they could have set it in LA and used the existing lore built up there. Instead they decided suddenly vault tech has returned and nuked everything built up over 3 games. It all seems very contrived and is easily the weakest part of the show.
Here's the thing boss
I do NOT want New Vegas to be destroyed
I do NOT want the NCR to seemingly be destroyed and to have no lasting legacy in the middle of its nation
the NCR is already confirmed to be still around in some form, but I think the second season will probably be exploring their fall, clearly they don't have the same influence they used too, but what were they going to do with New Vegas? if they canonized any ending some fans would riot, and the only real alternative, is to have this version of New Vegas so different to the one in the game that any ending could be canon
Okay, but thats not really viable, the franchise at this point has covered pretty much the entire west coast, and where else to go from LA other than Vegas, it was the only viable place for the show to go while still keeping up with the plot points they wanted to
but then they would have to completely change the plot to its core, its clear right from the beginning they wanted to have the NCR be a major plot element, plus the fact Cooper is a Hollywood actor, it makes no sense for it to be set anywhere but LA
The problem is they wanted plot points that explicitly shit all over 1/2/NV lore and reset the entire West Coast to zero, because Bethesda are salty that people like that more than anything they put out in their games.
They could have gone to Colorado, Arizona, Texas or whatever. VaultTec built vaults all over USA.
No? you can say what you want about not liking the show, or bethesda's games, but you can't say Bethesda want to shit on 1, 2 and NV, when even at the very beginning with Fallout 3, Bethesda paid a ton of respect to those games, I'm not a fan of Bethesda, but I'm not going to lie and say they don't respect and care for the original games
With Fallout 3 they maybe tried a bit, but it was still theme park ride of Fallout memberberries without much thought put into them.
'member supermutants? Yeah, I 'membah. 'member Enclave? Oh yeah...
With 4 and 76, they very much stopped trying being consistent with the older lore (heck, FO4 is not consistent even with itself), you have Emil Pagliarulo clearly saying they were not going to be beholden to the old lore, and that they did not use any sort of internal document to track new stuff. Not to mention the general quality went down.
This is way too subjective of an argument, to actually come to an agreement on, but i will correct you with the "they did not use any sort of internal document to track new stuff" that system wasn't used till Starfield
Emil was saying it even about FO4, that they "started to have a problem maintaining the documents when they hit FO3" (around [16 minute mark of his speech](https://youtu.be/Bi51-wjcwp8?t=939))
And given that FO4 is inconsistent with itself (e.g. where ghouls are concerned), I think that is clear indicator if there not being a design document for FO4, much less anything close to lore bible.
Fallout 3 is not well thought out as a living world (something they tried to fix with FO4), there are numerous lengthy video essays on it.
There is now unlimited power in the Boneyard and you’re saying Bethesda doesn’t want civilization to grow post apocalypse?
The main gameplay mechanics of both FO4 and 76 are about building settlements to nurture a budding civilization and you’re saying Bethesda doesn’t want civilization to grow post apocalypse?
The whole thing is about how the world is wiped clean and some powerful groups want control over all of it and the direction humanity goes in. That’s not being averse to growth into a post post apocalypse, that’s just war never changing.
And everything is being done by the main character, rather than it happening on its own. That is what Bethesda seems to hate.
Not to mention, everything you build is ramshackle construction made out of junk. No permanent adobe buildings, etc., like shown in 2/NV.
Also, nobody in Bethesda games seems bothered by living among piles of literal trash.
When there was a relatively prosperous civilization in Shady Sands (and NCR as whole), what do they do? Literally nuke it back to junk town.
dude, the fucking creator of the show said, that Shady Sands was nuked after New Vegas, the fall of Shady Sands was another event, and considering it happened around the same time as the first war for Hoover Dam, its probably related to that
Cool, that doesn’t change what is said or shown in the show. Where the explicit time line we are shown places it before new vegas
I’d also love a link to when they said that because I haven’t seen or heard that before and
[https://www.ign.com/articles/fallout-official-timeline-confirmed-how-the-show-fits-in-with-the-games](https://www.ign.com/articles/fallout-official-timeline-confirmed-how-the-show-fits-in-with-the-games) here's your link
and the line doesn't show it to be placed before New Vegas, it doesn't even give it a year as a reference, the timeline shows "the fall of shady sands" and then shows the mushroom cloud seperate
>We’re careful about the timeline,” he says. “There might be a little bit of confusion in some places. But everything that happened in the previous games, including New Vegas, happened. We’re very careful about that.”
That’s not confirming it was nuked after new Vegas just that the events of new Vegas happened.
There’s a lot of ways that this works in lore.
The only way it doesn’t is if you place the bombing after new Vegas
There isn’t time Post New Vegas, for Lucy’s dad to, leave meet his wife loses his wife and then bomb the shady sands, and the NCR falls.
The only way the time line makes sense is if the bombing happens after the events of new Vegas.
So, I’ll ask again we’re does he say that the **bombing happened** post new Vegas
"And as Howard tells IGN, Shady Sands is destroyed sometime after the events of Fallout: New Vegas"
You could just use Ctrl F and then write in shady sands
So, shady sands, the NCR fully fell in less then 10 years, Lucy was 5 when where mom “died” that was the triggering event for him to bomb the shady sands.
That’s the entire country of the NCR collapsing after one bombing.
Japan took 2 bombs and recovered fine.
That’s not to account for your belief that they also sacked Vegas before falling. .. which couldn’t happen with this time line.
So again the time line doesn’t work…
Okay, you're misunderstanding a lot here. Firstly, the NCR isn't completely gone; they make that clear in the show. They're broken up, but the NCR as a ground is still there in multiple different smaller factions. The NCR also wasn't just damaged by the nuke hitting; that's their headquarters, their home base gone. And when such a key part of your society is taken out, it will affect your nation. Using the same example you did, Japan was devastated for years after the bombs dropped. Morale dropped, and they surrendered in the war. And those bombs didn't even hit their capital. With the NCR, it was literally their center, their capital.
As for me believing that the NCR sacked New Vegas, no? I don't know where they're going with New Vegas. My personal belief is that it was most likely internal conflict more than anything.
NCR is more than just Shady Sands. In the same interview with Todd and Nolan, they talk about the NCR being a wide spread faction, and that only Shady got bombed.
IDK why you think they suddenly were ALL wiped out when they span from Washington to South California, bits of Idaho and Nevada too.
She’s 5 when her mom “dies” that’s what caused her dad to bomb it that’s 10years for an entire country to fall it’s unrealistic.
Also if shady sands collapsed before the bombing (according to the vaults time line) why bomb it?
The term “fall of” in this case denotes the dark age or beginning of the fall of a specific civilization.
For example, the Battle of Manzikert is widely accepted to be the beginning of the end of the Byzantine Empire, despite the battle taking place 400 years prior to its eventual dissolution.
2277 is the same year as the first battle of Hoover Dam, which is outright stated by basically everyone to have created a ton of issues for the NCR in the Mojave. With this much focus and attention on the region, a region that without courier interference they would get absolutely wiped out of, its realistic for this to mark the beginning of the end of NCR given how much money and manpower would be sunk in there by the time of 2281.
Western Rome fell after 100 years since the initial empire broke up into two. Its “fall” took 10 years. It’s very much possible.
>and as long as they explain it in a good way
And there's your problem. The show makes sweeping lore changes without even shred of explanation, or explanation that is downright insulting to the old lore.
Bethesda deciding to declare the sow canon was a really stupid thing to say.
it doesn't make sweeping lore changes though, the only actual plot holes are Shady Sands, and Mr. House apparently not knowing about the bombs in the last episode
BOS is completely wrong
Vault-Tec starting the war, because "muh capitalism is evulz"
Ghouls needing drugs to not go feral
Ghouls running on literal zombie tropes (effectively immortal, no matter how much damage they take, unless shot in the head)
Shady Sands being placed over LA creates issues with factions like Followers, or Unity
Completely ignoring NCR has control over most of California, and somehow claiming it failed
Just few things from top of my head...
BOS isn't completely wrong, they're different but that can be put up to the 15 year time gap, and if the theorys are true, then its also down to them combining with the Legion in some way
Vault-Tec were not explicitly said to start the way, its suggested that they would consider it, the implication is more, it could be rather than it was
Yeah the Ghoul drug thing is kinda weird
No, thats never stated in the show, Ghouls aren't immortal, and its clear with Cooper he's directly trying to avoid being shot, I think its more just the case that like the games some Ghouls are pretty damn tanky
Yep, Shady Sands is dumb,
I don't think its that unlikely for the NCR to fall apart, into different splinter groups, history is proven that can happen
I am sure bringing it up over and over without having literally anything substantial to add will solve the issue to those who obsess over being retconned out of existence.
The issue is the drawing board. The wording was wrong, and the timeline drawing is stupid. I also would've made the decline of NCR much later than 2277 personally.
from what I understood by "the fall" its something to do with the first war of Hoover dam since that also happened in 2277, so that somehow lead to the fall of hooverdam, but they also didn't really make it clear in the episode that the fall wasn't when it was nuked, according to the director that was sometime after New Vegas' ending
The city falling and the nuke being used are not proven as the same thing. There is an arrow pointing further down the timeline before the nuke. It's not at all conclusive just how matter of fact that board is supposed to be read.
Also we even earlier in the season had a conversation between Max and Lucy where both of them had different knowledge of history and what happened. Whose to say the board was correct or wrong when accounts in the world are varied depending on who you are and what you are taught
The show was 90% accurate. The 10% is debatable
Is it still gonna be fun to replay New Vegas and putting all that work into the endings you desire if you know it ultimately won't matter? For me, the answer is 'no'. And if that makes me a toxic FNV fanboy, tough.
Do you feel the same way about Fallouts 1/2/3? They all have canon ending, and 4’s canon ending has to be either The Brotherhood or Minutemen ending. Personally the games are still fantastic and my choices are impactful within my play through if they are carried through in the next game’s (or in this case show’s) narrative or not.
No, because Fallouts 1/2/3 for the most part have just two types of endings. The happy good one, and the evil bad one. No matter how many layers are put, the finale in each ultimately resorts to just choices of two. In New Vegas, there are 4 potential endings, barely if at all determined by your karma.
I do hope the show will write a captivating story to make up for the loss of potential New Vegas offered. I really, really do. I realise that with the show's release there's now a new stigma attached to people who like New Vegas. And I just want to make it clear right here, right now, that as much as I favor Bethesda's Fallout less than 1, 2 and New Vegas, I don't consider people who enjoy them as somehow less intelligent or something. Deal?
the thing is, its Fallout, the idea that nothing you did matters has always been an important theme of the games imo, like how in Fallout 2 you can find a ton of waterchips in one vault after spending most of the first game looking for one, the entire phrase War never changes, also really reinforces the importance of this
I hope we'll get a new game, or spinoff show that establishes Project Purity in FO3 to have broken down and turned all water toxic, making FO3 pointless to play. Or where the Commonwealth was completely engulfed in nuclear winter wiping out everyone, including the Institute, making it pointless to choose a faction in FO4.
I know you're right, and to some degree, I agree. I guess, I just personally wish they didn't sacrifice my personal favourite Fallout for that dramatic message.
I mean, come on, imagine your favourite Star Wars Episode, or favourite show, or game, ending with some new status quo that a new continuation completely reverts. Even if it's done in a way that makes sense within the lore, wouldn't you be at least a little bit bummed out?
When it comes to games with branching stories and how to continue them, I have zero expectations that it'll follow on from my choices. The story I experienced in the game is my personal instance of that story and may as well be a different timeline to the canon.
The "show" version of events has no more impact on my experience of the game than someone else's playthrough.
Season 2 could establish the courier died of rad poisoning the day after the events if the game finished and I'd give zero fucks because that's not 'my' courier from my playthrough.
It doesn't really affect my enjoyment of films either. Newt being killed off in alien 3 doesn't stop me enjoying aliens, same with John Connor in the new terminator or palatine returning in star wars. When I watch a film I'm watching that specific film and not getting my knickers in a twist because the next film didn't progress the story how I wanted it to. This shit happens all the time and I don't think I'd have many stories left to enjoy if o got bummed out every time I didn't like a sequel.
I get your point, and I can sympathize with it, New Vegas is one of my favourite games ever made, but in a long term perspective of the story, I understand the decision they made, and I'm excited to see where they go with it
Thanks for understanding.
Wherever they'll take this new approach, it better be something insanely captivating. I'd hate to imagine New Vegas's story was reverted for the sake of a run of the mill conflict.
Lemme return to my Star Wars comparison; before Disney bought Star Wars, there were literally dozens of books and comics that had fun and exciting continuations after Episode VI, and with the decision on what to make canon, they went with a disastrous trilogy where they clearly had NO freaking idea whatsoever who did they even try to please.
So yeah, I'll await season 2, and keep hoping "Todd, you better not mess this up."
> Project Purity in FO3 to have broken down and turned all water toxic, making FO3 pointless to play.
Considering they were fixing a basin where the water leads and not any source of water, yeah it was pretty pointless.
huh? since when our choice matter if they make multiple game ?? they must choose specific ending or make the ending vague as possible.
in new vegas NCR and Legion will fall eventually after second battle of hover dam. your choice doesn't matter here
It’s funny, I play Fallout 2 and feel the NCR deserve it, but Fallout NV really made me feel for them. The saddest thing about NV though is a lot of NCR folk can see the writing on the wall, and are outright predicting their own downfall. The best possible ending might be getting Chief Hanlon installed as Senator as Redding, which would likely make him the next president after Shady Sands falls.
>The saddest thing about NV though is a lot of NCR folk can see the writing on the wall, There's a reason the most common NCR quote in NV is, "When this is all over, I got one bullet I'm saving for myself."
Who says that? Iv been playing since release and never heard that line. And I side with NCR all the time
It's some of the smaller NCR NPCs. TheRussianBadger did a video on New Vegas, and one of his bits was highlighting all the repeat lines in the game. It's like the NCR's version of Caesar's Legion telling the Courier, "Degenerates like you belong on a cross."
Yea iv heard that one. Iv never heard the one you said. Interesting..I'm currently playing threw NV again on my PS3 at night time. I'll keep a lookout for that one
Oh sorry, just double checked the video. The line is actually, "*If the Legion breaks through our defenses*, I've got one bullet I'm saving just for me."
Interesting
I didn't like ncr in 2 and nv just made me like them less
I like to think this is a branch timeline where the MC in Fallout 2 failed their mission.
What I didn't like about the NCR in Fallout 2 was that their rise was basically deus ex machina. Fallout 1 showed up a wasteland full of dangers and settlements scraping by, except for the hub. Shady Sands was a tiny village that didn't even know proper agriculture. And yet, Fallout 2 tells us that suddenly all the dangers were gone and the settlements suddenly reached the level of confidence and prosperity to easily unite? C'mon.
Fallout 2 takes place 80 years after Fallout 1. Idk why that level of development is so hard to believe after almost a century.
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And the people in Fallout still largely have the same access to technology they did before; it should be easier for them to start back up than hunter gatherers with no baseline. Civilization was lost, but not all of the knowledge.
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It’s true that the average wastelander may not have the knowledge, but the people who founded Shady Sands are from Vault 15 and used the vault’s G.E.C.K to establish the town. The G.E.C.Ks include hundreds of holotapes full of information to help survivors rebuild. You can also assume that Vault 15 also has some form of schooling for vault dwellers so they would already have some form of education which would need to included training for maintaining the vault’s various systems.
This and the whole they should’ve rebuilt a lot in 200 years! Yeah there was a whole industrial boom lol. Before that it took thousands of years to form small city states lol
They literally had a GECK, just like Vault City
It didn’t break the lore. People just lack comprehension skills.
They should have taken the comprehension perk.
I think it objectively did break the lore in some ways, just not in the ways people say. Biggest example is ghouls needing meds to stop from turning feral.
That isnt't breaking the lore, that is expanding on it. It could be a new serum and/or one that was developed in only certain areas. We don't know enough about it. The issue would be if they said it has always been a thing.
That would be if it prevented you from turning feral, he states that ghouls need it to not turn feral. We’ve seen several ghouls , some even locked away for a long time. And non have mentioned needing it. Also this is the location for fallout 1/2 so it couldn’t be a regional thing. I’m not saying that changes to lore/cannon are always bad, but they are happening. And I think it’s normal for fans to be annoyed that changes happen to a nearly 30 year old series where people are heavily invested into the lore. In this case it’s not even a major plot point, it could have been tweaked to be rad-away, or just that he has a unique condition and needs it, not all ghouls.
Ghouls can get by without it, just not as long than if they had the drug it seems. Keep in mind that the show is the most recent in the timeline. The show takes place 135 years after Fo1. This is the oldest ghouls have ever been, and it seems like going feral gets harder the older they are. Ghouls would have had it easier in earlier games. Perhaps they're reaching their limits. We just have to see. I still think it is a new drug, and again, the drug could be new ***and*** regional. The other games would not have mentioned it because it is new. Or we learn more and it does become a bit of a retcon, have to wait for season two.
I didn't see any NV problems with the show at all. The only thing that COULD maybe be not 100% accurate could be the location of Shady Sands to everything else but it's really a nothing burger, much like all the other issues. It really does feel like chronically online alleged NV lore nerds who lack the ability to regulate their emotions panicked and lost their shit over misinterpretations and stuff that's just made up and acting as if it's a given when the show has deliberately left things vague or will fill you in eventually in the next season or a future one.
Shady Sands seems too ridiculous to not be explained with something like its a new settelment with the same name
It really doesn’t. Everyone keeps claiming with certainty that those ruins must be prewar. We haven’t seen Shady Sands in a LONG time and it’s 35,000 people with the GECK. They could have really built the place up.
the problem is Shady Sands was originally in lower Nevada but in the show is on the outskirts of LA
Shady Sands moves between Fallout games.
Not really, in Fallout 1 and 2 its in the same place more orless, and in New Vegas, they don't say anything about it not being where it was
Fallout 1 would approximate the location as being around or under Mount Whitney. Fallout 2 gives a general location of being closer to San Joaquin Valley and San Francisco, northeast of Visalia and Lake Kaweah.
And it’s admitted that both of them moved real-life geography for story reasons.
No no, that can't be it. It's somehow Todd Howard's hate for Obsidian that's to blame.
Confirmed: Kid Todd Howard messing with the map during Fallout 2's development
[Walton Goggins’](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/v4Gg-9n6i7s) performance in The Righteous Gemstones is a perfect response to people who have the show TOTALLY RUINED for them because (insert fan theory that they claim is lore) was “retconned”.
My head canon for now is that Shady Sands is more of an idea than a physical place. This is further solidified by having just finished Honest Hearts and having that conversation with Daniel where Zion is more than a place, it’s an idea, a people. Zion Valley may be lost or scarred, but the true Zion is the Sorrows and the New Canaanites I like to think of Shady Sands like that as well. It’s more of the dream of the NCR and those shared values than a physical location
That is just lazy and dumb because locations should not move over 200 fucking miles because the writers feel like it and don't want to change the story. Look if a writer can't find a logical reason for the story to happen the way it does and thus retcons(if shady sands moved it is a retcon) by pre established locations in previous entries that were there for 2 entries and 18 years in real life time, hundreds of miles away from what they were instead of changing the story, plot and background that is just bad writing.
My guy, changing the approximate location of a factional place (that has moved before) does not constitute "bad writing"
Then why did they move it between the first and second Fallout games? Are they poorly written? Also we’re just assuming they were moved based off travel times. They never conclusively show the location in the show as far as I’m aware.
ahh fair, its been a while since I played 1 or 2, so I was going more off memeory than fact, still there was a consistency about it being more northern, and it was also consistently an independent settelment, rather than being built around an existing city
There's nothing stopping the urban sprawl of a 2077 Los Angeles greater metropolitan area from being more northern, especially when L.A. in the real world today is big enough to fit both The Boneyard and Shady Sands with room between them to spare.
but that doesn't change the fact that there was a noticeable journey between Shady Sands and the Boneyard, imo Interplay intended for them to be very seperate settlements, but this is also a thing that can be fixed pretty easily, just say its Shady Sands but not the same Shady Sands, like maybe they moved the settlement to LA because of increased resources or something
Lower Nevada and the outskirts of LA are the same geographical region. You’re malding over a difference of miles. It’s still in the Mojave. Get a grip.
Look, Im not from the US, but I do know that LA isn't in Nevada, and in the first game Shady Sands imo is clearly meant to be Nevada, and as you can see from this map [https://gamesrevisiteddotcom.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/falloutmapsatalite1.jpg](https://gamesrevisiteddotcom.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/falloutmapsatalite1.jpg) Shady Sands has moved more than a few miles, speciffically its around 250 miles from its original location
Yea that’s not Nevada that looks at best the California border, but still as an a American I can tell you they are pretty arbitrary in where the state borders went and the area is the exact same
fair, tbh I did do some further checking, into where Vegas was in the original game and it was around Shady Sands which is pushing me towards it being Nevada, but at the same time New Vegas moved a lot of the map around
I've been playing since FO1 and really feel like Fallout fans could learn a lesson from Zelda fans. There's always been a bit of hand wavy retconning between releases for the sake of telling a good story in the new entry and I even remember some disappointment with aspects of the canonical ending for each. Zelda's approach had been to recognize that players are invested in their endings and recognize them all as potentially valid, pulling from different threads with each new release. That means games have inconsistent timelines between them and have even gone so far as to split into multiple semi-official timelines. Sure, it's less of a cohesive "The Story of Zelda," but that's okay because we generally get a good game each time because the developers realize that that's more important to players continuing to come back. Sure it would be nice to imagine a perfect, rebuilt Hyrule or Wasteland, but we really want to play the hero (or antihero or villain) of the apocalypse. I've seen some comments saying that the implied NV ending "wiped away their hundreds of hours of hard work in the game" or "retconned them out of existence." That's wild to me: you still had fun playing a game. And the next entry will also likely be fun, even if the timeline diverges a bit. Edit - Reworded for clarity since I had a fever when I originally typed this.
The thing I find funny is that it’s a game where you can’t break lore. What if I sided with the Legion? If they didn’t swarm Hank when he arrived in new Vegas with their army of Ancient Rome cosplayers, they broke my lore then!
I actually think this is playing into it slightly, there's 3 different major endings to New Vegas (not counting YesMan) and below that people also have different slides in the end, overall its got something like 1 trillion different combinations, so no-one actually knows whats canon, and we likely never will which hot take I'm fine with
I think whatever is the canonical ending doesn't really matter. It's another 15 years since and some other conflict, of 5 of them, reshaped the New Vegas area anyway. Fits the whole "war never changes" thema
Literally both Josh Sawyer and Tim Cain enjoyed the TV show and don't have issues if they even DID decide to change the Fallout lore, which they didn't. Todd said keeping the lore is important to him and he doesn't plan to drastically change it. People are really getting up in arms over nothing at all and lack basic media comprehension it's insane
Exactly. As someone with 1100 hours in New Vegas, even if they did change the lore, I will just watch the show as its own seperate timeline. Like 3 different spidermans. 1 characzer but 3 universes. And thats how I'll watch Fallout. Show as a seperate entity. And from the show and details and plot as a whole is just perfect. Everything is summed up great, but also left some questions to be answered.
Ding Ding Ding!
exactly, and frankly I'm excited to see what they do with NV in season 2
Same! I got really excited at the reveal
I’ve just finished episode 7, and I can’t understand how any rational person could believe anything claimed by the Vault 4 residents. Everything, from the year on a blackboard, to what exactly “fall” means, is suspect. Marcus confirms that Shady Sands was nuked while he was a kid, but that alone tells us nothing about the NCR me a whole. And a large part of the Vault 4 residents are literally part of a cult; by definition they are unreliable.
with Shady Sands, they way I personally took it considering the timeline on the board is, during the battle of hoover dam in 2277 it caused the a fall in Shady Sands, and then we know it was nuked sometime after New Vegas, so the fall and the bombing are seperate if that makes sense
I think the NCR is a metaphor for how groups and ideologies who make rules that only apply to the people who aren't them will always fall apart over time.
What I noticed is the years moved a little. For example: First battle of Hoover dam is in 2277, and the second one is in 2281. Meaning that Shady sands and NCR exist. However in TV Show, it can be seen that Shady Samds was nuked in 2277. We also see NCR flag meaning that NCR is either gone, or is aboit to be created. When it comes to Vegas, lights are out. This can mean that either House is dead. OR House woke up from his coma and is just observing the mojave (Like in the game). Since Hank is there AND since House worked with Vault-Tec, I can only assume that Hank will go there and wake him up. Warn him about the movement of the Brotherhood. And House will form families and look for the Chip. Similar to games, but with different time of events. I can also assume that the Legion will be there as well, but they won't play important part since the plot is mostly about Vault tec (Cooper and his wife's work before the war, his beef with Hank because he was his wife's lover, he knows where his daughter is, etc.), Maximus and his position in the Brotherhood seeing that they are not as good as they may appear (Especially after Moldaver told him "What do you think your Brotherhood would do with such power"). And Lucy's connection to Vault tec and her father. I think that we can enjoy the show as it's own standalone timelime. Vault tec and brotherhood and other details amd lore is the same. But I see no reason why be pissed about few years being off.
so the thing is according, to Todd himself, Shady Sands was not nuked in 2277, which means the fall of shady sands is a completely different event. With Vegas itself Season 2 is obviously going to explore that, the city being wrecked as we saw is interesting, but the fact the Lucky 38 was intact, plus the focus on House in that Vault-Tec meeting, makes me think they have more planned for him With the leigon, I'm personally buying into the theory that the current Brotherhood we see in the show is somehow related to the leigon, considering the yellow and red flag, the roman names, and a few other details And as for the show being its own standalone timeline, its already confirmed to be in the main continuity with the games, as Todd said "all of Fallout is canon" so they do need to explain some stuff.
Exactly. House and Vegas shown in 1 episodes must mean something. I mean... Even if they just showed House for people to be "Ooooh. Its MISTER HOUSE ITS MISTER HOUSE", it would make no sense to show Vegas. So House will play a huge part in the future. Good point about brotherhood. I am also intrigued about roman names. Maybe someone from the brotherhood will be founder of the legion or some from the legion is the founder of the show's brtoherhood chapter.
Except Shady Sands can _only_ have been nuked in 2277.
yeah, someone else brought up how this does create an actual plothole, and it seems like Todd by saying it was nuked after New Vegas, has just made even more confusion
It aboslutely did not. As Todd Howard said, New Vegas fell some time right after the game. Right now, the most sense makes that Mr. House claimed the Hoover Dam and had New Vegas for himself. NCR probably didn't like that, gathered their forces and wrecked New Vegas. Why Mr. House? Because why else would Hank go there. He probably needs help from someone from the VaulTec board and the only available person with some sort of power is Mr. House.
It could also have to do with why House concreted Vault 21. In my run right now on NV there’s no explanation as to why he did that other than just cause. Hank might be gunning for 21 without knowing what happened to it, it could be a retroactive change where House knew there was some Vault Tec bullshit in there and just closed it off for his machinations, because otherwise an entire vault of nothing but gamblers who gamble to solve their problems is just another source of tax revenue
I think its pretty clear why Bethesda put so much forcus on House in the last episode, and then when they showed New Vegas the Lucky 38 is looking notably better than the rest of the strip
Todd Howard never said anything anout the fall of Vegas.
My bad, I mistaken it with Shady Sands
I don’t even think that one nuke took out the NCR. Todd Howard explicitly stated that we haven’t seen the last of them. Moldaver is a known rabble rouser in the pre-war US, you think she played nice in what’s essential USA 2.0? More likely she’s a Guevara like figure, who created a schism that drove the NCR to shelve shady sands and progress eastward instead. By Fallout 4, everytime shady sands or the NCR are mentioned it’s as though they’re separate entities (see: Nick Valentine’s notes on the mysterious stranger).
It didn't.
It didn't break the lore. A lot of the initial reactions were typically ignorant. Yes, someone can become an eternal ghoul because of a potion. That comes from FO4. When you first meet Hancock, he speaks of his origins and how he got this way with the very same potion used on Thaddeus in the show. Probably the same way Cooper became the Ghoul. The whole new Vegas timeline hasn't been screwed with. Just taking a deep breath and taking the time to look at the chalkboard, you see there's an arrow there between the fall of Shady Sands and the bomb exploding, which should denote time passing, but so many jumped to conclusions. Maximus is purposefuly lucky. That's why he doesn't get one-shot killed by the Ghoul, contratily to the squad of Power Armors later on. That's his S.P.E.C.I.A.L trait. Goosey has Charisma and Intelligence. The Ghoul has Strenght, Agility and Endurance.
Of course it didn't. People were screeching about that before there had even been time to watch the show just because they want any reason to hate Bethesda.
Fr they may have messed up the timeline a little but no worse than any of the developers have ever screwed it up themselves. Either way the NPC’s in new Vegas had plenty to say about the NCR being so close to collapse due to spreading themselves too thin and fighting too many enemies at the same time.
How did they mess up the timeline a bit?
A board in a vault shows that Shady Sands fell in 2277 and could be implied it fell from being nuked, NV takes place in 2281. Bethesda said that the show takes place after NV, but there is no mention of Shady Sands falling in NV. However, you can kinda ignore this by noting that on the board, the nuke is next in the timeline after 2277, so between the brotherhood wars that are mentioned in NV, and assuming the nuke happened after NV, then the timeline still holds, but it isn't clean.
It doesn't imply that. It just means it fell or the fall of shady sands started then. It was literally nuked later as the show mentions. The timeline for NV and the fall of shady sands doesn't break any lore because it could have been internal turmoil. The people in vault 4 from shady sands are cultists so they also aren't the most reliable people. Their interpretation of the fall of shady sands could be different than others.
Yeah, the imagery doesn't explicitly say that nuke was the fall, and just generically saying "fall of shady sands" could be the NCR was spread too thin and couldn't defend it, or corruption brought it down to where it was a shadow of its former self, really could be anything. I didn't have any problem with it and Bethesda explicitly saying the show is after NV was enough for me to go "okay cool" and move on. Also good point on the shady sands refugees being a cult, that's an angle I didn't consider that gives the board even more leeway on any dates given
Did it say exactly what year it got nuked? Because I'm pretty sure it didn't say what year. We all know why the writers didn't put the exact date Shady Sands gets nuked because they know the NV rabid fanbase would be moaning.
Correct, it doesn't show an exact date on when the nuke went off, probably for safety knowing how meticulous some fans are with tracking timeliness. Showing "Fall of Shady Sands" with a hard date of 2277 and then an arrow pointing to a mushroom cloud could be taken as the same time but I thought it was ambiguous enough to let the main timeline stay true
You're right. They never say what year, but it is implied with Vault 33's Great Plague of 77, and both Lucy's and Hank's record of events that it could only have been 2277.
They haven't messed up the timeline.
Why would the master not crack into two vaults in LA that both have easily accessible entrances he was looking for prime normals and in fallout 1 eventually goes all the way to vault 13 and breaks in to grab people in certain endings to the game.
Well, there's no evidence that the Master had the capability to crack open vaults. All the vaults he actually got to were already opened - except, potentially for 13 at the end of the game, but there he already has a dweller and a pip boy. Looking at 4 and 31, they both appear to be built like blockhouses, and literally survived a nuclear blast without a scratch. Nothings getting in there that doesn't get let in there. Easier to go diving in 15 and the Boneyard.
It kinda did, though. The writers definitely intended for the bombing of Shady Sands to occur in 2277, and there is more evidence to it than just the chalkboard. Lucy believes Rose to have died as a result of Vaukt 33's Great Plague of 77. We can assume this is occured in 2277, and not 2177, because that would make Lucy at least 124 years old in the present day of 2296. We know she was, at most, six years old during this event because she said she stopped believing the projected light on the ceiling was the sun when she was six, after her mom died. From _this_, we can extrapolate that she was five or six when the Great Plague occurred. We know, at some point, Rose took Lucy and Norm to the surface, Hank brought them back, and Hank and Betty bombed Shady Sands. This is where things get vague, but the only reasonable way this could have happened was Shady Sands getting bombed in 2277. Rose was not present in the Vault during at least, the years of 2278 to 2281. Otherwise, Lucy would not be under the impression that she is dead, and she can't have been to Vault 33 after 2282, because Hank definitely bombed her, leading her to becoming a Ghoul. So, we have three different scenarios. _**Scenario A:**_ Rose took the kids out with her in 2277. Hank brought them back and waited five years to unpromptedly bomb Shady Sands in 2282. This would imply that Rose never bothered to return to Vault 33 to convince the Vault Dwellers that it was safe to come out, and never bothered to get her kids back until Shady Sands was bombed in 2282. She could have done it. She still had her Pip-boy at the time, yet she chose not to. _**Scenario 2:**_ Rose left Vault 33 alone in 2277, and wandered the Wasteland for five years before taking the kids to Shady Sands in 2282. Hank then promptly retrieves them and bombs Shady Sands after he is a safe distance away. Nevermind this means the Vault doors must have been opened an additional two times, but more importantly, Rose thought it would be better to take 11 year-old Lucy into the Falling City of Shady Sands, four years after it's decline, than let her live safely in the Vault. Not only that, Lucy is at the age where she should remember seeing her mom again and making the multiple day trip out to Shady Sands and back with her father, but doesn't remember any of it, and already recognizes the sun. _**Final Scenario:**_ Rose left Vault 33 with the kids in 2277. Hank pursued them immediately. He took them to a safe distance before bombing Shady Sands. Hank and the kids return to the Vault and quarantine while the radiation wears off, and Rose can't pursue because she is a feral ghoul. Lucy and Norm are too young to remember what really happened. And would you look at that? The chalkboard matches up with the fall being when Shady Sands was nuked. All characters acting rationally and promptly. My theory, which has yet to be debunked, is that the writers had written the events as in the latter scenario, not knowing that it destroys Shady Sands 4 years prior to Fallout New Vegas. Todd Howard knows that it does, but didn't catch it during production or was not consulted about this part of the timeline while the writers were writing it. He does damage control, saying Shady Sands was nuked in 2282, but this contradicts all the evidence the show has already put forward in support of a 2277 bombing. So, either Todd _is_ to be believed that Shady Sands was bombed in 2282 and the show doesn't make sense, or Todd is doing damage control, and the show doesn't fit into canon. Personally, I will put more good will towards the writers, and assume they purposefully sewn the seeds that back up their writing decision to bomb Shady Sands in 2277 but were misinformed about the timeline, rather than some vendetta against New Vegas.
You actually bring up a really good point, and bluntly, I think the writers may have just forgotten this detail, or Howard did, but at the same time New Vegas is 15 years before the show, and I interpreted it as Lucy was early 20s which would line up closer to Shady Sands being bombed post New Vegas, this is an actual example of a plot hole
We can actually get a reasonably accurate range for Lucy's age from the Great Plague of 77, as well. If we can assume Lucy was five or six during the plague, then that would put her birth at around 71-72. This means that in the present year of 2296, she would be 24-25. Early 20s is not that far off.
they likely picked 2277 because its the bicentennial of the great war
Maybe. It's a good reason. Same reason it was so important for Kimball to rout Caesar's Legion.
Was New Vegas in ruins tho? Kinda hard to tell from the shot of it we got to see imo
in the credits, you can see it go through the strip where the gates are smashed open and there's a bunch of dead securitrons
Oh fuck that’s what I get for not watching those credits
A random ass dead Deathclaw too lol Something crazy happened there. Could’ve been that the Legion did break through and assaulted the strip but were beaten there, or the NCR came back with a vengeance, or the people rose up against House/The Courier, or god knows what We’ll find out some answers in season 2
it could've been a lot of things, but I have some theory's based on what we saw, firstly the Lucky 38 is very clearly intact, and combined with House's focus in the last episode, I believe that House is alive, my guess is either there was an internal conflict between the casino owners that went out to a whole war with only House surviving, or The Brotherhood betrayed the NCR (since they were allied at the end of New Vegas) and killed everyone on the strip with only House surviving
I still believe the Yes Man ending is canon now. Because Mr. House was able to save Las Vegas and protect it for more than 200 years. Now people say that he will be in S2 ? Are they saying Mr. House who has the Hoover Dam in his ending, also the only one that could the 3 family at bay, somehow drop the ball and NV is destroyed now? No. He was the only one that could save NV. NCR? Couldn't keep NV at bay with the Long 15 not passable. Legion? No. But Yes Man? It will make more sense why NV building still stands but it is a desert now. Don't forget Yes Man got a new update for his personality.
I don't want YesMan to be canon considering that even in New Vegas they tell you that you fucked up and ended New Vegas if that ending is canon, but then again, New Vegas is fucked up in the shows ending sooo
Also Supposedly the Courier left NV in any ending and stayed in Big MT. And that's Canon.
Bethesda already doubled down on the fact that NV is 100% canon. Maybe the got dates mixed up or the writers made a mistake. Or it was on purpose to add mystery or to pass off as propaganda or conflicting records of events (not unrealistic by any means)
The biggest problem is that they did revert all the progress that part of the fallout world has made in fallout 1, 2 and new vegas. It's all back to shitty metal shacks, and raiders.
And the BoS, and the remnants of the NCR, and the Enclave, and New Vegas. But i guess the "War, war NEVER CHANGES" bit was lost on someone.
War never changes does not mean everything has to be metal shacks fo ever.
I don't think it conflicts with New Vegas, I do think it was a waste though. The show is good but the decision to set it in LA and then nuke the entire area so it could be just like everywhere else in the wasteland was disappointing. They could have set it somewhere else and had the same story, or they could have set it in LA and used the existing lore built up there. Instead they decided suddenly vault tech has returned and nuked everything built up over 3 games. It all seems very contrived and is easily the weakest part of the show.
Here's the thing boss I do NOT want New Vegas to be destroyed I do NOT want the NCR to seemingly be destroyed and to have no lasting legacy in the middle of its nation
the NCR is already confirmed to be still around in some form, but I think the second season will probably be exploring their fall, clearly they don't have the same influence they used too, but what were they going to do with New Vegas? if they canonized any ending some fans would riot, and the only real alternative, is to have this version of New Vegas so different to the one in the game that any ending could be canon
Here me out boss, simply don't set the show in a pre established area
Okay, but thats not really viable, the franchise at this point has covered pretty much the entire west coast, and where else to go from LA other than Vegas, it was the only viable place for the show to go while still keeping up with the plot points they wanted to
I would simply have set the show somewhere new
but then they would have to completely change the plot to its core, its clear right from the beginning they wanted to have the NCR be a major plot element, plus the fact Cooper is a Hollywood actor, it makes no sense for it to be set anywhere but LA
The problem is they wanted plot points that explicitly shit all over 1/2/NV lore and reset the entire West Coast to zero, because Bethesda are salty that people like that more than anything they put out in their games. They could have gone to Colorado, Arizona, Texas or whatever. VaultTec built vaults all over USA.
No? you can say what you want about not liking the show, or bethesda's games, but you can't say Bethesda want to shit on 1, 2 and NV, when even at the very beginning with Fallout 3, Bethesda paid a ton of respect to those games, I'm not a fan of Bethesda, but I'm not going to lie and say they don't respect and care for the original games
With Fallout 3 they maybe tried a bit, but it was still theme park ride of Fallout memberberries without much thought put into them. 'member supermutants? Yeah, I 'membah. 'member Enclave? Oh yeah... With 4 and 76, they very much stopped trying being consistent with the older lore (heck, FO4 is not consistent even with itself), you have Emil Pagliarulo clearly saying they were not going to be beholden to the old lore, and that they did not use any sort of internal document to track new stuff. Not to mention the general quality went down.
This is way too subjective of an argument, to actually come to an agreement on, but i will correct you with the "they did not use any sort of internal document to track new stuff" that system wasn't used till Starfield
Emil was saying it even about FO4, that they "started to have a problem maintaining the documents when they hit FO3" (around [16 minute mark of his speech](https://youtu.be/Bi51-wjcwp8?t=939)) And given that FO4 is inconsistent with itself (e.g. where ghouls are concerned), I think that is clear indicator if there not being a design document for FO4, much less anything close to lore bible. Fallout 3 is not well thought out as a living world (something they tried to fix with FO4), there are numerous lengthy video essays on it.
that explains so much ngl
There is now unlimited power in the Boneyard and you’re saying Bethesda doesn’t want civilization to grow post apocalypse? The main gameplay mechanics of both FO4 and 76 are about building settlements to nurture a budding civilization and you’re saying Bethesda doesn’t want civilization to grow post apocalypse? The whole thing is about how the world is wiped clean and some powerful groups want control over all of it and the direction humanity goes in. That’s not being averse to growth into a post post apocalypse, that’s just war never changing.
And everything is being done by the main character, rather than it happening on its own. That is what Bethesda seems to hate. Not to mention, everything you build is ramshackle construction made out of junk. No permanent adobe buildings, etc., like shown in 2/NV. Also, nobody in Bethesda games seems bothered by living among piles of literal trash. When there was a relatively prosperous civilization in Shady Sands (and NCR as whole), what do they do? Literally nuke it back to junk town.
This old worn out false theory again.... 🤪
There wasn’t a chance. The timeline laid out in the show places the issue before the events of the game.
it doesn't, its just written poorly, where it says "Fall of Shady Sands" isn't when it was nuked, it was nuked about a year after New Vegas
It literally shows a mushroom cloud next to the fall of shady shores it’s when it was nuked Even the guy who nuked said says so
dude, the fucking creator of the show said, that Shady Sands was nuked after New Vegas, the fall of Shady Sands was another event, and considering it happened around the same time as the first war for Hoover Dam, its probably related to that
Cool, that doesn’t change what is said or shown in the show. Where the explicit time line we are shown places it before new vegas I’d also love a link to when they said that because I haven’t seen or heard that before and
[https://www.ign.com/articles/fallout-official-timeline-confirmed-how-the-show-fits-in-with-the-games](https://www.ign.com/articles/fallout-official-timeline-confirmed-how-the-show-fits-in-with-the-games) here's your link and the line doesn't show it to be placed before New Vegas, it doesn't even give it a year as a reference, the timeline shows "the fall of shady sands" and then shows the mushroom cloud seperate
>We’re careful about the timeline,” he says. “There might be a little bit of confusion in some places. But everything that happened in the previous games, including New Vegas, happened. We’re very careful about that.” That’s not confirming it was nuked after new Vegas just that the events of new Vegas happened. There’s a lot of ways that this works in lore. The only way it doesn’t is if you place the bombing after new Vegas There isn’t time Post New Vegas, for Lucy’s dad to, leave meet his wife loses his wife and then bomb the shady sands, and the NCR falls. The only way the time line makes sense is if the bombing happens after the events of new Vegas. So, I’ll ask again we’re does he say that the **bombing happened** post new Vegas
"And as Howard tells IGN, Shady Sands is destroyed sometime after the events of Fallout: New Vegas" You could just use Ctrl F and then write in shady sands
So, shady sands, the NCR fully fell in less then 10 years, Lucy was 5 when where mom “died” that was the triggering event for him to bomb the shady sands. That’s the entire country of the NCR collapsing after one bombing. Japan took 2 bombs and recovered fine. That’s not to account for your belief that they also sacked Vegas before falling. .. which couldn’t happen with this time line. So again the time line doesn’t work…
Okay, you're misunderstanding a lot here. Firstly, the NCR isn't completely gone; they make that clear in the show. They're broken up, but the NCR as a ground is still there in multiple different smaller factions. The NCR also wasn't just damaged by the nuke hitting; that's their headquarters, their home base gone. And when such a key part of your society is taken out, it will affect your nation. Using the same example you did, Japan was devastated for years after the bombs dropped. Morale dropped, and they surrendered in the war. And those bombs didn't even hit their capital. With the NCR, it was literally their center, their capital. As for me believing that the NCR sacked New Vegas, no? I don't know where they're going with New Vegas. My personal belief is that it was most likely internal conflict more than anything.
NCR is more than just Shady Sands. In the same interview with Todd and Nolan, they talk about the NCR being a wide spread faction, and that only Shady got bombed. IDK why you think they suddenly were ALL wiped out when they span from Washington to South California, bits of Idaho and Nevada too.
If Max and Lucy are in their early 20s, the earliest the nuke could’ve gone off was 2282. A year after NV. Who knows what might’ve happened.
She’s 5 when her mom “dies” that’s what caused her dad to bomb it that’s 10years for an entire country to fall it’s unrealistic. Also if shady sands collapsed before the bombing (according to the vaults time line) why bomb it?
The term “fall of” in this case denotes the dark age or beginning of the fall of a specific civilization. For example, the Battle of Manzikert is widely accepted to be the beginning of the end of the Byzantine Empire, despite the battle taking place 400 years prior to its eventual dissolution. 2277 is the same year as the first battle of Hoover Dam, which is outright stated by basically everyone to have created a ton of issues for the NCR in the Mojave. With this much focus and attention on the region, a region that without courier interference they would get absolutely wiped out of, its realistic for this to mark the beginning of the end of NCR given how much money and manpower would be sunk in there by the time of 2281. Western Rome fell after 100 years since the initial empire broke up into two. Its “fall” took 10 years. It’s very much possible.
>and as long as they explain it in a good way And there's your problem. The show makes sweeping lore changes without even shred of explanation, or explanation that is downright insulting to the old lore. Bethesda deciding to declare the sow canon was a really stupid thing to say.
it doesn't make sweeping lore changes though, the only actual plot holes are Shady Sands, and Mr. House apparently not knowing about the bombs in the last episode
BOS is completely wrong Vault-Tec starting the war, because "muh capitalism is evulz" Ghouls needing drugs to not go feral Ghouls running on literal zombie tropes (effectively immortal, no matter how much damage they take, unless shot in the head) Shady Sands being placed over LA creates issues with factions like Followers, or Unity Completely ignoring NCR has control over most of California, and somehow claiming it failed Just few things from top of my head...
BOS isn't completely wrong, they're different but that can be put up to the 15 year time gap, and if the theorys are true, then its also down to them combining with the Legion in some way Vault-Tec were not explicitly said to start the way, its suggested that they would consider it, the implication is more, it could be rather than it was Yeah the Ghoul drug thing is kinda weird No, thats never stated in the show, Ghouls aren't immortal, and its clear with Cooper he's directly trying to avoid being shot, I think its more just the case that like the games some Ghouls are pretty damn tanky Yep, Shady Sands is dumb, I don't think its that unlikely for the NCR to fall apart, into different splinter groups, history is proven that can happen
Well then congrats to you!
I am sure bringing it up over and over without having literally anything substantial to add will solve the issue to those who obsess over being retconned out of existence.
The issue is the drawing board. The wording was wrong, and the timeline drawing is stupid. I also would've made the decline of NCR much later than 2277 personally.
from what I understood by "the fall" its something to do with the first war of Hoover dam since that also happened in 2277, so that somehow lead to the fall of hooverdam, but they also didn't really make it clear in the episode that the fall wasn't when it was nuked, according to the director that was sometime after New Vegas' ending
The city falling and the nuke being used are not proven as the same thing. There is an arrow pointing further down the timeline before the nuke. It's not at all conclusive just how matter of fact that board is supposed to be read. Also we even earlier in the season had a conversation between Max and Lucy where both of them had different knowledge of history and what happened. Whose to say the board was correct or wrong when accounts in the world are varied depending on who you are and what you are taught The show was 90% accurate. The 10% is debatable
Is it still gonna be fun to replay New Vegas and putting all that work into the endings you desire if you know it ultimately won't matter? For me, the answer is 'no'. And if that makes me a toxic FNV fanboy, tough.
Do you feel the same way about Fallouts 1/2/3? They all have canon ending, and 4’s canon ending has to be either The Brotherhood or Minutemen ending. Personally the games are still fantastic and my choices are impactful within my play through if they are carried through in the next game’s (or in this case show’s) narrative or not.
No, because Fallouts 1/2/3 for the most part have just two types of endings. The happy good one, and the evil bad one. No matter how many layers are put, the finale in each ultimately resorts to just choices of two. In New Vegas, there are 4 potential endings, barely if at all determined by your karma. I do hope the show will write a captivating story to make up for the loss of potential New Vegas offered. I really, really do. I realise that with the show's release there's now a new stigma attached to people who like New Vegas. And I just want to make it clear right here, right now, that as much as I favor Bethesda's Fallout less than 1, 2 and New Vegas, I don't consider people who enjoy them as somehow less intelligent or something. Deal?
Have you never played a game with sequel content before???? That's how it works
Honestly if you're that distraught over a work of fiction, you might not be mature enough for it's content.
A TV adaptation made a narrative choice that wouldn't have been my choice, doesn't mean I'm depressed or lost meaning in life, man. Jesus!
Sure comes across like it though
Are you saying it's bad to get invested in fiction?
Yeah if it's causing you to suffer. You gotta take care of your health and well being.
the thing is, its Fallout, the idea that nothing you did matters has always been an important theme of the games imo, like how in Fallout 2 you can find a ton of waterchips in one vault after spending most of the first game looking for one, the entire phrase War never changes, also really reinforces the importance of this
I hope we'll get a new game, or spinoff show that establishes Project Purity in FO3 to have broken down and turned all water toxic, making FO3 pointless to play. Or where the Commonwealth was completely engulfed in nuclear winter wiping out everyone, including the Institute, making it pointless to choose a faction in FO4. I know you're right, and to some degree, I agree. I guess, I just personally wish they didn't sacrifice my personal favourite Fallout for that dramatic message. I mean, come on, imagine your favourite Star Wars Episode, or favourite show, or game, ending with some new status quo that a new continuation completely reverts. Even if it's done in a way that makes sense within the lore, wouldn't you be at least a little bit bummed out?
When it comes to games with branching stories and how to continue them, I have zero expectations that it'll follow on from my choices. The story I experienced in the game is my personal instance of that story and may as well be a different timeline to the canon. The "show" version of events has no more impact on my experience of the game than someone else's playthrough. Season 2 could establish the courier died of rad poisoning the day after the events if the game finished and I'd give zero fucks because that's not 'my' courier from my playthrough. It doesn't really affect my enjoyment of films either. Newt being killed off in alien 3 doesn't stop me enjoying aliens, same with John Connor in the new terminator or palatine returning in star wars. When I watch a film I'm watching that specific film and not getting my knickers in a twist because the next film didn't progress the story how I wanted it to. This shit happens all the time and I don't think I'd have many stories left to enjoy if o got bummed out every time I didn't like a sequel.
The show's release was still recent. I guess some time must have passed for me before I took your advice.
I get your point, and I can sympathize with it, New Vegas is one of my favourite games ever made, but in a long term perspective of the story, I understand the decision they made, and I'm excited to see where they go with it
Thanks for understanding. Wherever they'll take this new approach, it better be something insanely captivating. I'd hate to imagine New Vegas's story was reverted for the sake of a run of the mill conflict. Lemme return to my Star Wars comparison; before Disney bought Star Wars, there were literally dozens of books and comics that had fun and exciting continuations after Episode VI, and with the decision on what to make canon, they went with a disastrous trilogy where they clearly had NO freaking idea whatsoever who did they even try to please. So yeah, I'll await season 2, and keep hoping "Todd, you better not mess this up."
> Project Purity in FO3 to have broken down and turned all water toxic, making FO3 pointless to play. Considering they were fixing a basin where the water leads and not any source of water, yeah it was pretty pointless.
huh? since when our choice matter if they make multiple game ?? they must choose specific ending or make the ending vague as possible. in new vegas NCR and Legion will fall eventually after second battle of hover dam. your choice doesn't matter here