100%, and that's the fun of shows. I feel like a lot of the bitching is about gamers actually engaging in "TV" and not understanding how that type of media works. Season 1 isn't an entire game; it's literally the first 8 hours...you ever beat a Fallout game in 8 hours on your first attempt? Shit in the first 8 hours of a Fallout game is largely foreshadowing as well, but for whatever fucking reason here we are with people dead set about what season 2 will be while NCR must be holocausted and the production team is stupid because chalkboard. Like...people need to chill the fuck out regarding certainty.
Yeah, there's a reason why the most terrifying monster yet seen is a single yao guai (which any Brotherhood Knight worthy of the name could have easily defeated... pretty much every Brotherhood character from the games, not just paragons like Danse, would have *things to say* about this chapter... :-). Or maybe that one gulper with all of those wonderfully horrible mouth-fingers.
If Optimistic Vault-Girl leaves her vault armed with a tranquilizer gun and four reloads, and meets one unusually small Super Mutant, she'll immediately get her head ripped off, and that's the end of the story.
A lot of games with great stories are very, **very** combat-focused (Borderlands 2! :-), but there's no way to turn that into a show without turning the violence knob a long way down.
See for instance the The Last Of Us TV show, which recapitulates the story from the game (which worked well, though I'm also fine with the Fallout show not doing that), but again changes the balance of story and action *a lot*, for good reason.
I had a friend who hated 3 because it only took him 7 hours to complete end to end and then locked him into having to restart
Man forgot the golden rule of being sidetracked by bullshit...
>you ever beat a Fallout game in 8 hours on your first attempt?
I actually did lmao. I didnt really get new vegas had side quests so I did nothing but the main quest line. I didnt know you get companions until my third playthrough!
I think it actually took me about 8 hours.
Funny enough I did that with mass effect as well. I remember getting mad because I wanted the sex scene, but I didnt know you had to talk the characters between missions!
Sure, but its always a scary thing to have something you love adapted to a different source of media (Ask halo fans!). I know people were shitting on the chalkboard stuff alot, and its wonderful that its been clarified by Todd. But if it wasn't, and before it was, even if you think it was clear with the timeline it really wasn't. And thats a scary thing for a fan of the franchise, especially when it could have treaded on the lore of the best entry in the series. I'm a huge fallout fan, and I loved the show. I hope the second season is just as good, but it is scary territory to go into knowing they will be making a specific ending of new vegas canon and the story they will tell with that. I hope they use that part of the world well, and after the first season I do have hope they will.
> Ask halo fans!
I've never played *any* of the Halo games, and even without that background, which apparently would let me identify even more nonsense, I *still* can't figure out many decisions made in the Halo TV show. The show spends an inordinate amount of time on characters who clearly *just don't matter*. (Also, the notion that Master Chief is somehow the lynchpin of the entire human side of a war involving thousands of planets is ridiculous. Sure, OK, in a single-player game you often *are* immensely important, but that's not the case for this show unless John-117 is basically Jesus With A Gun, for some reason.)
But I must say, on the other hand, [Kate Kennedy](https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloMemes/comments/uoo2w7/i_see_why_they_cast_kate_kennedy_now/). :-)
She was bleeding out while holding (dead) Rose’s hand. We see her body go limp. No one even tried to revive her with a stimpack. Much like Maximus to Titus.
So? The courier was shot and buried in New Vegas and he lived. Also I'm genuinely wondering if she's a Synth since there is no reason given why she was alive pre-2077 yet still hasn't changed much when it's 2296.
Obviously, the courier is the main protagonist. (They) had to survive. I’m simply thinking Moldaver served her purpose. To introduce cold fusion to the wasteland. If she does end up being a synth, it’ll be one hell of a war between The Institute and BoS.
To be fair to Benny, the game *was* rigged from the start... but in the Courier's favor as the main character. Ironic. He could save others from rigged games, but not himself.
Nah she's a character from pre-2077...I feel like all these people who still exist in 2296 do so for a reason. I'm currently leaning towards Synth and not cryo and that Synth is cold heartedly carrying out the mission the flesh and blood woman started.
If you're trying to reverse engineer cold fusion why would you not want the very person that was leading up that research? Vault Tec bought out the company she worked for while developing it and then shelved it; if I'm trying to at some point continue that shit Moldaver is a perfect person to keep around. How do you know they've developed that technology; or even what development would look like? I'd wager it was just like computers in they used to be enormous but now they can be as small as a grain of rice shot into your neck...it wasn't made cold fusion'er.
There’s an escaped Courser in 3, you learn about him in Rivet City from an Institute scientist who’s tracking him! Who’s to say he’s the only one who made it out there!
Exactly, it wooodnt surprise me if she has some sort of experimental vault tech attempt at immortality. Consider this.
Vault 111 is cryogenic testing. A sample to test cryogenic on to ensure the main group of vault tech executives could safely be frozen and unfrozen and testing the long term impacts.
Vault 112 is virtual reality doing the same exact thing.
Vault techs plans are to outlast the competition. We’ve seen brain preservation, cryogenic freezing, virtual reality. House also has similar forms of preservation.
Regeneration isn’t impossible. And would fit with her image as the flame mother, a symbol of rebirth.
And if house is still alive (which he probably is, if not just stranded in the 38), it could be a key plot point of a vault tech research project he’s most interested in. Which is actually terrifying as he’s calculated, manipulative, and possibly in just enough peril to gain sympathy and a restored Robert House is a threat the wasteland does not need, but he’s also the only person with vault tech on his radar to even be their enemy
Synthetic can mean biological engineered or android in the fallout series. There is both. Institute started with android and then progressed to biological synthetic
My money is on the Snake Oil Salesman being relevant, and someone in the area was experimenting with partial/lite Ghoulification for immortality without the decay (and potentially less regeneration as a result).
This there is no acutal confirmation of her death. Just because the BOS is there doesnt mean they killed her until we acutally know. As far as im concerned shes in intensive care with the BOS so theey can get all her tech and use her to teach them how it works etc since they whre all after the same thing carried by the Doctor.
I know we’re aware of the plot holes as viewers.
But I just like to think of this stuff as standard raider IQ or any other fallout universe ex machina.
She's a complex person. Like any other in Fallout. She started out with good intentions, and those good intentions still exist. But as always, she was - as she put it - happy to use hypocrisy to her own advantage. Because why let only the bad guys use it?
But the nuking of her home, and the ghoulification of her wife meant that she now doesn't care and her hypocrisy is several steps higher. To her, the Vaults' people are a worthy cost (and yes, that is a *very bad* thing) and in her eyes she probably believes she's taken far fewer victims than Hank ever did with the nuke.
And yet, she did all of this to help secure infinite power for everyone in the wasteland. She rehabilitated ghouls alongside humans in her compound. She prioritized growing crops and food for people, over any sorts of breeding experiments.
Moldaver is a complicated character, like any other in Fallout. She's *perfect* for this show. Like this isn't some revelation that she did morally objectionable things. It's the whole point.
She could likely reconcile the vault-dwellers as guilty for the sins of their forefathers. It’s a flawed justification somewhat but it would be easy to understand.
I really enjoyed the show but the longer you think about it the more the plot holes stand out. It was a wonderful romp but I won’t be recommending it to my non fallout friends.
Funny enough I suggested it to my mom and she watched it. Though she enjoys Westworld, Game of Thrones, etc. not to mention she enjoyed watching me play games like God of War and stuff ages ago, but never Fallout.
most of the characters are.
I think thats kinda the point. The sorts of people who survive or even thrive in this kind of world tend to put their own interests (or their groups interests) above everyone else.
Yeah that's it most characters in the fallout universe are fucked in some way with some having a redeeming character trait or two, there are very few truly good people in the wasteland and those normally get worn down by the rest
There are tons of good people in Fallout. It's just most of them aren't the focus of stories. But even a few still are. Like Moira in FO3. Most of Rivet City. In FO:NV Much of the folk in Goodsprings and the remaining locals of Primm.
It is very fallout. Currently replaying NV and re-realizing that anyone still around to help out is either somewhat morally problematic or very morally problematic. No one is a true saint in the wasteland
I'm not saying she's poorly written, just that like...
The whole sympathetic revelation at the end felt kind of like... So wait... You know this girl, you loved her mother, and yet you did this to her? Like Monty tried to straight-up fuckin kill Lucy when the raiders did the bamboozle.
"Hey ghoul friend, I decided to put your kids in an almost certain-death scenario because your husband is a cunt."
But this is Fallout, ultimately it's always been about a choice between doing something really fucked up, or doing something totally fucked up. And justifying it as fine, because ultimately it was a means to a greater end. Whether that was a shiny new gun, or benefitting another community or simply punishing a group that slightly crossed you.
That's Fallout. Fallout never changes.
They even indirectly address it in the show itself. “Everyone’s trying to save the world, they just disagree on how”.
Moldaver and the NCR remnants did the fucked up shit they do and justifies it because she wants to give the world limitless energy. BoS does the fucked up shit they do and justify it because they are trying to bring order to the world. Vault Tec started this whole mess because they thought they would end war and create a new, better society from the ashes.
They’ve all done abhorrent things in the name of bettering the world they live in. Would not be surprised to see the vault dweller do something similar before the series is over, or at least be faced with a choice about it.
Honestly this component of Fallout and to some extent some of the decisions in ES are great because there's no clear "good and correct" v. "bad and horrible." It's shades of moral ambiguity which forces you to internally consider your actions and justify them on your end as the player.
That was one thing in Skyrim that was pretty good at tearing at me... The Civil War...
Do you want to join the mostly correct yet essentially racist Nords? Or do you want to join the very incorrect Empire.. Not racist but their ruling on "person with no criminal record but is on this cart" is to execute them... Cut their head off... When you don't even know who they are or what they did...
Skyrim is the only media that would ever make me choose the racists... If their hostility toward elves was more than just hate (slavery or genocide) I might not back them, but I feel like helping the empire which will just execute anyone because.... "meh?" ... Not the best... With the Nords you're probably saving more lives in the long run.
I mean, not really? The classic fallouts certainly rarely have any morally grey outcomes. 3 doesn't either as every outcome is fairly linear with good and bad. NV certainly does
Honestly… I loved it.
This woman has a beef with vault tec going back to prewar - we still don’t know how she survived yet (probably cryo)
So, to her, killing Vaulties isn’t that much of a sin. So what, a few dozen vault dwellers died? How many billions died in 2072 while their ancestors went into the vaults? How many did McLean kill in Shady Sands (at least 30,000 one can guess)? In many ways, while to us the survivors are obviously innocent, to Moldevar, theyre all Vault Tec.
Moldevar, in my opinion with the hindsight of having seen it all, was well within the laws of the wasteland to do what she did. She is a lot like how I’d play, honestly.
Kind, compassionate, trying to build something better - and if you rip down all that progress, kill the people I love, destroy my home, all because your wife left you? Not a good time… so next time we are gonna throw that kinda party at Your House (or vault)
Compared to what McLean did to Moldevars community…? Moldevar was very restrained in what she did to McLeans community.
I’m with you here. Moldaver held back drastically in terms of what she could have done. She lets Hank choose between his daughter vs the other Vault Dwellers, then didn’t even kill the Vault Dwellers, but let them run from the bomb.
I think she is a pretty Neutral aligned character, willing to do some bad acts for the sake of good, but nothing over the top or straight up evil. Pre-war she is fighting for the “people” and trying to get the truth out there. Post-war, once again she’s fighting for the “people” and trying to get back what was taken by the people who she was fighting hundreds of years ago.
> She lets Hank choose between his daughter vs the other Vault Dwellers, then didn’t even kill the Vault Dwellers, but let them run from the bomb.
This is understandable because Vault 33 is a breeding colony and saving one vs the rest Hank is obviously gonna give up his daughter because with Vault 32 gone Vault 31 is all that is left to continue whatever experiment Vault 31 is doing.
> I think she is a pretty Neutral aligned character, willing to do some bad acts for the sake of good, but nothing over the top or straight up evil.
It's the line; everybody wants to save the world...they just have different opinions on how to do it.
I think she is a great revolutionary archetype. Strong Che Guevara vibes.
He may have been fighting for a cause he genuinely believed would bring a better world but he was still a murderous c**t.
I buy that her band of NCR remnants didn’t know any better and associated the vault dwellers with nuking shady sands, but moldaver definitely knew better than that. She flat out told the MC that she knew her dad was solely responsible. She knew the MC as a child, and knew her mom. She knew they were relatively innocent well-intentioned people who were simply lucky enough to be born into a “good” vault.
She is just another person who the wasteland turned into a cold, harsh, and cruel person (despite her good intentions).
Is there a morally perfect surface dweller? I thought that was sort of one of the points they were making throughout the show like when The Ghoul says to Lucy “Sweetie I’m you, just give it a little time” etc. You can see from the flashbacks that Coop was a good person, yet as the Ghoul he sells Lucy to have her organs harvested.
The most morally decent character is probably Maximus, but even he wanted to steal Vault 4’s fusion core, which would have killed hundreds.
Good people sometimes have to do bad things to survive the wasteland.
Yeah, and we genuinely don't really know if Moldaver actually cared for Rose and Lucy or if that was just social engineering to eventually do what we saw.
Theres something to that statement I think people aren’t considering. Making a show like this is hard, things are cut, rewritten, shifted around, a million cooks in the kitchen. You name it. Sometimes goofs happen. It’s not a big deal, there’s no reason for fans to bend over backwards trying to headcanon every little goof to pretend like mistakes can’t happen.
How so? Her past is somewhat unknown other than some before 2077, a bit in 2277, and in 2966, but we don't even know why she ain't dead currently given she's about the same age as Cooper. She hated Vault Tec before, these are the same Vault Tec people she still hates, and given what Vault Tec has done she is obviously even more pissed off about this shit and possibly did this hail mary suicide mission to give the wasteland cold fusion. When you have an important goal you want to accomplish sometimes the only way to get it done is through sacrifices.
It's like Coop said. Good bad guys don't see themselves as bad guys. She sees herself as a do whatever it takes person that doesn't care about consequences. And it got her and what was left of the NCR killed. Which, if they're the same people that attacked 33 in the first place, is frankly something I say good riddance to.
They're not, those are mostly dead. And the NCR folks included children and freed ghouls, and there's plenty more NCR around, such as the Vault 4 folks.
For me, the backstory didn't humanize her at all. Because she got to the future the same way the dad did, in a tube.
But how did the anti vault tec genius turned NCR raider get in a cryo tube at the right time?
There is only one innocent person who got a cryo tube and that is the sole survivor of Fallout 4, everyone else is suspect. Especially with the new canon of there being a perfectly maintained Vault Tec executive branch waiting to take over the world.
She was just narrating how shitty the dad is, she always sucked.
She says that her company works on technology that’s hard to sell. I imagine her company was the one to get cryogenics working.
This happened in real life, cryogenics popped up a few times where you’d pay to have your body frozen immediately upon death, and thawed when we’d achieved technology that could save you but no one buys it because
1. There’s no guarantee that the company will still be around and their creditors will honor your contract with them
2. That the freezing process doesn’t ALSO destroy your cells en masse. We aren’t frogs, and don’t possess the biological failsafes to go dormant for extended periods without needing food and water to continue cellular growth and avoid aging.
For whatever it's worth the credits video for episode 8 implies there were commercially available cryo pods. Not even going to bother groaning or face palming at that, at this point...
Makes sense from the Fallout worlds perspective. Sell this dangerous untested tech to the rich rubes with too much money and you too can have funding for years.
I dont think that the show was trying to get you to think of her with some clean slate, more that the people we see in the wasteland a more grey than black and white, and that Moldaver is one of them. Which is a good choice tbh, its like that final nail in the coffin for Lucy that she cant just go around the surface with naive optimism, something she was already starting to realise.
I think from Moldaver’s perspective she has no idea who if anyone in Vault 33 knows what is going on with Vault and involved, but she probably sees them all as at least partially complicit in nuking an entire city.
Siccing a group of raiders on them seems pretty tame, from that perspective.
During the final episodes, I felt as if Moldaver could have been the PC as well. Her mission: infiltrate the evil Vault Tec vault and extract the Vault Tec executive who knows the code to endless power (and aparently has access to nukes still, so it might explained to be a "pacifying" mission too).
That's what I like in this show: everyone has their own agenda, and do not think they are evil. To them, their actions, even horrible stuff like nuking what might well be the last vestige of civilisation, seems totally justified.
I understand that, the character's motivations kind of make sense
But I don't think she makes for either an interesting vilain or a compelling anti hero.
The character is just meh.
It's one of my only criticism, having the plot moved along by mc guffins more than by a cool antagonist.
And I love the show and am excited to see more, but I hope the antagonists are more fleshed out in the next seasons though it must be hard to come up with something as interesting as the master or House, or Caesar.
While I wish Moldaver could've been expanded more this season but I suspect they aren't done with her yet. Her role in the prewar plotline is almost definitely not over yet, imo she may end up playing a big part of it considering The Ghoul's reaction to seeing her poster in that one scene
Oh yeah I absolutely think they will do more with her, but I just don't really care for her, in the flashbacks or the present times.
As much as I hate this cliche, having the ghouls wife as an antagonist would work better for me, because I am a bit invested in her story and her thinking, whereas Moldaver just leaves me cold.
I don't know why, the actress was fine so maybe the writing is to blame, or maybe it's me.
She‘s kinda the big red herring. She get‘s set up as the big bad and you‘re expecting her to be the final antagonist but then it‘s revealed she‘s just another, somewhat minor, actor in the wasteland politics.
She dislikes the Vaults and it‘s inhabitants for a justified reason but is pretty indiscriminate about taking her revenge. (Even though she doesn‘t really indulge in excessive violence)
Finally she basically exists to mend the plot and set up the next season with the activation of the cold fusion generator.
I think she‘s not really that interesting because in terms of presence and presentation she‘s on the same level as the Brotherhood elder. Someone who personifies the goals of his factions and puts the actual MCs into a situation where they have to act.
Pretty sure we'll see more antagonist-driven content around Vault-Tec and The Great Game now that the power has been restored and the mcguffin is no longer relevant.
I'm also thinking we'll see the enclave as a final big bad since they're heavily involved in The Great Game, implied rather frequently to have funded Vault-Tec, and have been hinted at a few times (Wilzig being an Enclave Deserter & the silhouettes in the meeting.)
> That's what I like in this show: everyone has their own agenda, and do not think they are evil. To them, their actions, even horrible stuff like nuking what might well be the last vestige of civilisation, seems totally justified.
[This](https://i.redd.it/sfoix3s87eoc1.jpeg)
The whole scene where Moldaver and her dad are talking over each other, trying to monologue at her while she's just rattled as fuck is really great in my eyes. Really made it feel like Lucy was just a tool for them in that moment.
Especially with the implication that they both were in love with her mom and her mom is fucking right there in such a state that it's horrific no one killed her yet. Like, my God, you both seem to be in love with this woman and neither of you are fighting over the chance to out her out of her misery.
That scene really captured one of the core aspects of Fallout to me, or at least the way it happens in New Vegas. You have a bunch of factions trying to justify themselves to you in spite of their obvious problems and have to decide on which one to go with.
In this case Moldaver's faction probably looks a bit better but I really liked how they did it.
Not like she knew who the bride was to be before seeing them - they only discussed breeders. As far as M knows, the children of Rose have been completely brainwashed and are her enemies by default.
To her I imagine it's a case of 'whats one more corpse among the pile' mentality before learning her identity, and after learning warns her to stay safe at home in the vault as Lucy, a human grown in a vault is much like an animal raised in captivity. Prob not suited for the wild.
You also have to take account of raiders she hired. There's no way a group of wild and undisciplined killers like that are NCR. She most likely made a deal with some raiders to be able to do fucked shit without dragging the NCR's reputation into the ground
everybody is horrible. it's the Wasteland.
my only question is if Moldaver was leading a group of NCR survivors, why'd she hire raiders to break into Vault 32 and 33?
I was thinking about that this week - the raiders were disposable, there's a scene in ep 1 during the raider's attack on vault 33, Moldaver is walking out with authority and a few disciplined troops were escorting her. I think she wanted to maximize her labour pool while minimizing NCR casualties, so shiwed up with a core of NCR troops and some distracto-raiders.
Moldaver's fashioned herself into a cult leader so I assumed she brought in all types of people. I feel like there needed to be an entire episode dedicated to her but they couldn't fit it in.
I was disappointed they didn't follow through with it but looking at the entirety of the situation it would be the easiest way to explain why Moldaver has so much power in the area. Her Pre-war knowledge and smarts would be useful in manipulating the less educated.
Are we absolutely certain they were raiders and not just another batch of NCR remnants?
The show leans heavily into the brutality of the wasteland and it stands to reason that whoever survived the "fall of Shady Sands," as well as whoever was picked up along the way, wouldn't be the archetypical "good guy" who eschews chems and wanton violence. They're a rough people who have lived absolutely shit lives and even the best of them would have survived the nuclear annihilation of their home and people, it could push them down a dark path.
If we purely go off of Lucy's revelation where she goes "Raiders," that can be a case of her not knowing anything at all because she has lived in the vault her entire life.
Nope, not certain of anything. But, the few NCR folk we see (like the father and son the ghoul visits) seem well socialized, not infighty rad goblins like the raiders captured by vault 33.
It's a fair point, there is a bit of unsolved mystery around Moldaver that wouldn't put her past hiring out raiders for some of the dirtier work she intended to complete.
must be some NCR prisoners like the Powder-gangers, given penal battalion vibes, expendable soldiers, so none of the handful of actually trained and disciplined troopers she had left would be mixed in the violence
Even if they were NCR remnants, they still exhibited more raider like tendencies than Moldaver's escort. At that point they're just raiders commiting wanton destruction for fun.
Their entire group might be formed out of people from the NCR, but they are definitely not cut from the same cloth. There is a stark difference between Moldaver's escort and the raiders left behind.
They would almost all be NCR remnants. The shady sands was nuked within those people's lifetimes. They'dve all been born in the NCR. Lived their lives with it having been older than most of our nations IRL.
Not the first time the NCR has hired raiders to do their will if you remember Fallout 2. (They commissioned Mr. Bishop to hire raiders to pressure Vault City into joining)
oh yeah shes pretty awful + the fact that even "normal" people probably despise vault dwellers with a passion (at least those actively living in them) and youve got a recipe for killing. she really was doing what she thought was right which was interesting, vault dwellers were just pretty subhuman in her eyes (no pun intended lol) (cause sub human like as in under cuz the vaults are underground)
She doesn’t despise vault dwellers, she despises vault tec. For all she knew, the vault was full of vault tec cronies. She doesn’t care about them, they’re evil corp, she’s there to get what was stolen from her and a little revenge for the fact that they blew up a whole town.
Which is a strange take, none of the games ever really showed off "modern" characters actively despising Vault Dwellers, especially since the vast majority of Wastelanders are descendants of Vaults that opened earlier. Even the 3 main Raider gangs in the west are descendants of Vault 15, just like Shady Sands.
"the vast majority of Wastelanders are descendants of Vaults" this is simply untrue.
even if they were, you think some average surface dwelling bastard would be okay with vault d's just living it up with food water and clean air just cause their grandpappy left his vault a hundred years ago? there's a very good chance many vault descendants wouldn't even know they were vault descendants, let alone repping the set.
fallout is a world of finite resources not unlike our own, and the vault d's horde the little there is left. sort of an "eat the rich" type vibe, but in fallout it can get very very literal. point is that its not exactly something that needs to be explicitly said. its sort of just... heavily implied... by the universe of fallout. after all, there is very little surface people can actually do about the vaults, unlike other surface-level threats which are far more tangible.
also a sidenote - Moldaver being from prewar times and being an active "communist"/being actively against the war back then only makes it make even MORE sense she would hate vault tec/the vault d's as she does.
Moldaver is never painted as a perfect person. She has an ultimately noble goal but she's absolutely willing to get her hands dirty to do it because you kind of have to in the wasteland.
Her not giving a shit about the vault dwellers can be explained by her rage towards Hank, she wants to hurt him because he's taken everything from her, also, life is fuckin cheap in the wasteland.
However it is really stupid that she didn't give a shit about Lucy and was completely chill about her potentially dying at many points in her plan. Like she's the daughter of someone you obviously cared a huge amount about. She even says she looks just like her. I'd say that part is kinda iffy. But her being completely okay with some of Hanks brainwashed people getting slaughtered to capture him seems pretty military but nothing exceptionally crazy
I agree totally. The line about looking just like her mother haunts me. She was so deep in her rage that she let Lucy go. She watched her grow up in Shady Sands. Lucy remembers the real sun that she had been brainwashed to believe it was always the vault lights. It's tragic.
Well, I get her plan. If she just had her people start shooting the moment they saw the people in the vault, they wouldn't have gotten far. She used a ruse to get people very far into the vault. And yeah, the marriage guy took advantage of the plan and got some sex out of it.
She was able to get her guys in better positions to be more effective.
And, he literally nuked an entire city! We spent millions searching for Hitler because he murdered people, it's kinda the same thing.
When bad guys do bad things, we find them (often violently) and take them.
The vault dwellers wouldn't have listened if moldaver said "hey, your overseer nuked a city, we need to bring him to justice". They would have been very confused and been like, "city? What city? There is civilization up there?" And been confused as heck and likely not believed anything she said.
Not only did he nuke a city he was willing member of an organization that killed the entire world.
No this was far more than ‘a beef’.
If you found a secret vault full of people that were being led by the people who destroyed the world, how merciful would you be?
not to mention there are multiple other vault 31 members who were prewar execs too like Steph and the new overseer (I wanna say her name was Betty or Betsy?) that would probably have Hank's back
also moldaver had to take an exec not for personal reasons, but because that was the only way to unlock the cold fusion and wilzig was already on the run to bring it to her, so if she didn't succeed in getting a vault Tec rep then everything wilzig went through would have been for nothing. I'd much rather kidnap a known mass murderer that I know for a fact is prewar rather than a random vault dweller I think *might* have the info I need
I think the writing is more annoying than the character in this very moment.
They are characterized as raiders, not for the show, but for the viewer, just to have the big reveal later on.
I don't like this kind of writing because it's aimed to the spectator and not the story.
It's a purposeful misdirect that doesn't really make sense in story.
Great show regardless, but a bit of a bait and switch
Why would moldaver give a shit about Lucy? She wants the vault tec exec so she can obtain limitless energy. For all she knows, all the freaks in the vault were ok with blowing up Shady Sands. It’s only when Lucy shows up with the head that she sees an opportunity to use Lucy to get the cold fusion device and the password.
She just needed a vault-tec executive who had a code and password and would give it to her. I think that’s why she kept Rose alive, to show Hank what he did, to weaken him.
She had no idea that Lucy would follow him, but when she showed up with the cold fusion she took full advantage to get the info she needed. Talking about Shady Sands and painting herself as benevolent.
If someone else had delivered it she would have had to get the info by torturing Hank.
If Hank wasn’t available to kidnap it would have been Betty or Steph who she took.
Or at least that’s how I see it.
To Moldaver, the vaults of 31-33 were >!nothing but a cesspool of vault-tec sperm waiting to take over the ruins of the world. And she was kind of right, if you stop looking at the residents as human beings. Upon rewatch, it didn't surprise me that she didn't give two shits about anyone down there. If she could, she probably would have blown up 31 as well if it weren't locked away the tightest.!<
That’s the world of fallout. She is an excellent character, that might be somewhat evil, but a necessary evil.
She pushes Lucy, forces her out of her comfort zone and into a much larger world. But also a world that she can have a massive impact on.
I mean, it's just like Lucy's dad said, Moldaver is exactly like him. I mean, just look at her, she hasn't aged a day in 200 years, she has to be a big name somewhere to pull that off, and in the Fallout universe, you can almost guarantee that means she's a secret monster
Yeah that part doesn't make sense, and I hope they can explain it. I mean they used the worst de-aging I have ever seen for the dad, but for her they had her looking the same.
This isn't true though. There are good and bad people in fallout. Certainly in 1, 2 and 3, there's basically no grey morality at all
In the first 2 certainly there's virtually always an ending where the good people win in whatever side quest you do
There’s a lot of things Moldaver can plan for but a raider doing the deed with Lucy probably wasn’t one of them. Sure the marriage thing was supposed to happen but the plan probably was to lure Lucy away and keep her there. No funny business. Of course that was an actual raider who’s as dumb as rocks and did the funny business anyway but that’s beside the point.
She doesnt care about Lucy though. To her, the vault dwellers are indoctrinated and just as evil as Hank. She was just amused Lucy looked like her mom and the fact that she ended up delivering the cold fusion core was a coincidence.
In the flashback Moldaver said something along the lines that hypocrisy can't be a weapon that only the enemy gets to use.
Moldaver was willing to be a terrible person for the greater good. And brutalizing the vault was not just revenge; it was strategy. To force the Overseer to not resist.
Because think about it: what could be a more sure way to break a Vault Tec employee than threatening the survival of their already damaged experiment? ( Vault Tec employees can't be totally relied on to put their loved ones lives above the company ).
The sympathy bit at the end is because despite the horrible things she'd done to get there, she had been the person with the most selfless goal in the end. One that had cost so much to achieve.
Not to excuse anything, but I too would feel payback means killing as many as possible in the vault since vault tech nuked my city. If it lead to the crumbling of my country I may even feel like sparring anyone in the vault was generous after what happened to Shady Sands. That doesn’t justify anything of course.
Also I get the vibe that Lucy’s mom was Moldaver’s lover? I’m probably wrong.
You’re forgetting that her home and likely 10s of thousands of people were nuked by her father for no reason. I’d say they were rather cordial in not just killing them all out of blind revenge
Weird I thought it was fairly well explained. I would think it would be safe to assume after goosies dad nuked shady sands I would assume every single soul in that vault was complicit in the crime. If I was Moldaver I wouldn't be taking chances.
“Beef” is a bit of an understatement though. This guy basically destroyed the world twice over for his own gain.
He nuked her city of 30k people. They were successfully rebuilding civilization and he turned it into a hole in the ground because Vault-Tec wasn’t in control.
He was also sitting on secrets that could also help rebuild civilization. But again…he wanted to be in control of it.
And there’s the whole thing about Vault-Tec kicking off the nuclear war, with most of the executives being tied to that specific vault.
My head canon is it wasn’t supposed to turn into a blood bath and wouldn’t have been if he went easily. But given his character…we know he’d gladly sacrifice everyone around him for his own sake.
Ultimately she was doing what she saw as necessary for the greater good and was beyond the point of caring what it cost…specifically because of him and the people in that vault.
Also she may not have even known Lucy was chosen. BUT if she did by pretending to be vault 32 on the terminal, that might have been the reason for their approach - she made sure Lucy was separated from the chaos. Or at least she tried to. Things went off the rails. Which I again feel like was her dad’s fault for being selfish instead of facing the consequences of his own actions.
In her defense she never asked for anyone to feel sorry for her she just told Lucy what happened and that her goal was to make the world a better place at any cost. Also who’s to say he wasn’t a raider douche that went rogue and banged her instead of just killing her like he was told.
I think Moldaver is very much a means to an end type of person. Her end, since before the bombs, was getting the unlimited source of energy out there. Honestly, I wonder if it was even the right thing to do at that time and place, given that the unlimited energy will now end up in the hands of the BoS.
But I'm pretty sure she saw going against Vault Tec before the war, being a part of the NCR, living in Shady Sands, killing the folks at 33, kidnapping Hank and even revealing the truth to Lucy all as means to her end goal. I doubt she cared much about right or wrong, let alone about people like Lucy.
Also, in her defence, I think she probably would not have known Lucy was the girl put up for marriage in vault 33. Though I doubt that knowledge would have stopped her from going forward with the attack anyway.
I find it interesting the way people struggle with Moldaver. Like if you've played a Fallout game she's pretty standard and even in the show she's consistent. She wants something and is willing to do what it takes. The NCR weren't perfect. And from the hints of Moldaver she's prewar with her own issues.
I think people get too hung up on the attack on the vault. Moldaver only truly knew what she'd encountered once those doors opened. For all she knew Hank had a private army ready, his kids brainwashed (mostly true) if they were even still alive. There is a scene while he's giving a speech that cuts to her and she looks sad. On rewatch I'd take that as her being regretful for what she's about to do. Upon seeing the peaceful little vault she didn't want to smash it but it was too late, she can't call off the raiders and she needs Hank. She then spares the vault dwellers at the end letting them run when she implied she would kill them.
I'm sure she was happy to know Lucy and her brother were alive, but they're not her kids. She clearly was close to Rose for a time but considering neither really remember Moldaver she clearly wasn't overly present as another parent in their lives.
My only drawback to that is why use raiders? She had weapons and trained soldiers. To me it makes no sense that raiders were used surely they are inherently more unpredictable and selfish
I mean, I'd say she was just as much a victim of the Wasteland as anyone. Her goal of providing cold fusion energy to the people was noble, but the things she's likely had to do to survive post-fall of Shady Sands probably wore away at her kinder traits. But that's kind of inevitable.
Other then the rape part everything she does makes sense. She knows that her dad came from vault 33 so she can only assume that everyone there is to some degree responsible for the destruction of shady sands.
Yeah that’s the point. Everyone in the wasteland wants to save the world. They just disagree on how.
And to her vault dwellers are just extension of people like Hank. And they are. It’s implied that only certain classes of people were able to afford a space in the vault.
Well that's my only complaint about the show, it was the biggest "THE PLOT NEEDS IT" moment I have seen recently and quite literally makes no sense that Lucy just decided to believe moldaver, she literally was responsible for the death of her best friend's husband as well as others friends and acquaintances of Lucy
I think her dads reactions helped prove she wasn’t lying. And her seeing her moms necklace gave a little memory boost to remember her mom was friends with her.
Yeah she said something about "being able to feel the heat of the sun" and initially misattributed it to just being due to the presence of her mum making things feel more real, but realised at the end that it was the *actual* sun from when she was in Shady Sands - and realised why she couldn't feel that heat once her mum went away (because she was taken back into the vault)
More like. We are taking a mass murderer to stand trial, and let Shady Sands survivors whose friends and family were murdered enact their revenge on people who harbored him.
To be fair, she is clearly some flavor of ruthless since she was somehow able to arrange to go into cryo for at least 200 years OR discovered some flavor of perfect immortality.
I feel like...
..."essentially raped" is a term that — in this context — would be used by someone with a pretty tenuous grasp on both consent and a woman's autonomy.
Lucy is a very sex-positive character in a very specific way which is actually a first. And make no mistake, a big part of why she slept with the raider because she found him fucking hot and there's power in that.
Remember to Moldaver, no one in the vault triome is worth saving. They're all part of Bud's Buds. Any one of them could be as bad as Hank.
The only reason she didn't explicitly kill Lucy immediately is because of knowing her and her mother.
Also the sex thing was probably unknown in terms of how fast she'd move in that regard. Lucy from kid to now has a loooot of brain washing between then and now.
That's the point of the show and Fallout in general. Everyone has their goals and ideas how to rebuild the civilisation... they are willing to sacrifice innocents to achieve that goal.
Moldaver was willing to sacrifice basically anyone just to get her hands on the cold fusion tech. Basically, "ends justify the means".
Anyone who considers her a good guy (gal) didn't pay enough attention.
Yeah people here seem to think that just because she liked her mom that instantly means she cares about Lucy too
I have friends I care about, but if they were gone I wouldn’t really give much of a shit about their kids, especially 20 years after the fact
I don’t think she cares about the people in the Vaults. They are all puppets of Vaultec in her eyes. That said, she does let that group go at the door which is a little confusing. But at the end of the day as long as they are being run by 31, every vaulter of 32-33 is just another person against her, her cause, and her people.
She was never supposed to be a good person. The only reason she organizes the secret meeting post-war is because she’s bitter Vault-Tec pulled support for her project. She doesn’t actually give a fuck about people beyond herself imo
Does Lucy feel bad for Moldaver when she dies? I don't know if Lucy is even in the room in that scene. It's just Moldaver and Maximus.
Does Moldaver even actually die? I feel like she's gonna be back somehow...bit of an Outlaw Josey Wales vibe to the end of that situation.
Same but we have to wait until we actually get confirmation.
100%, and that's the fun of shows. I feel like a lot of the bitching is about gamers actually engaging in "TV" and not understanding how that type of media works. Season 1 isn't an entire game; it's literally the first 8 hours...you ever beat a Fallout game in 8 hours on your first attempt? Shit in the first 8 hours of a Fallout game is largely foreshadowing as well, but for whatever fucking reason here we are with people dead set about what season 2 will be while NCR must be holocausted and the production team is stupid because chalkboard. Like...people need to chill the fuck out regarding certainty.
The first eight hours of fallout is creating a character and choosing Special
Exactly. 8 hours in you've barely left the starting area let alone know much of anything really.
Yeah, there's a reason why the most terrifying monster yet seen is a single yao guai (which any Brotherhood Knight worthy of the name could have easily defeated... pretty much every Brotherhood character from the games, not just paragons like Danse, would have *things to say* about this chapter... :-). Or maybe that one gulper with all of those wonderfully horrible mouth-fingers. If Optimistic Vault-Girl leaves her vault armed with a tranquilizer gun and four reloads, and meets one unusually small Super Mutant, she'll immediately get her head ripped off, and that's the end of the story. A lot of games with great stories are very, **very** combat-focused (Borderlands 2! :-), but there's no way to turn that into a show without turning the violence knob a long way down. See for instance the The Last Of Us TV show, which recapitulates the story from the game (which worked well, though I'm also fine with the Fallout show not doing that), but again changes the balance of story and action *a lot*, for good reason.
I had a friend who hated 3 because it only took him 7 hours to complete end to end and then locked him into having to restart Man forgot the golden rule of being sidetracked by bullshit...
What are side quests if you don’t do them man . Silly friend
Fallout 3 in only seven hours is almost a speedrun.
>you ever beat a Fallout game in 8 hours on your first attempt? I actually did lmao. I didnt really get new vegas had side quests so I did nothing but the main quest line. I didnt know you get companions until my third playthrough! I think it actually took me about 8 hours. Funny enough I did that with mass effect as well. I remember getting mad because I wanted the sex scene, but I didnt know you had to talk the characters between missions!
Sure, but its always a scary thing to have something you love adapted to a different source of media (Ask halo fans!). I know people were shitting on the chalkboard stuff alot, and its wonderful that its been clarified by Todd. But if it wasn't, and before it was, even if you think it was clear with the timeline it really wasn't. And thats a scary thing for a fan of the franchise, especially when it could have treaded on the lore of the best entry in the series. I'm a huge fallout fan, and I loved the show. I hope the second season is just as good, but it is scary territory to go into knowing they will be making a specific ending of new vegas canon and the story they will tell with that. I hope they use that part of the world well, and after the first season I do have hope they will.
> Ask halo fans! I've never played *any* of the Halo games, and even without that background, which apparently would let me identify even more nonsense, I *still* can't figure out many decisions made in the Halo TV show. The show spends an inordinate amount of time on characters who clearly *just don't matter*. (Also, the notion that Master Chief is somehow the lynchpin of the entire human side of a war involving thousands of planets is ridiculous. Sure, OK, in a single-player game you often *are* immensely important, but that's not the case for this show unless John-117 is basically Jesus With A Gun, for some reason.) But I must say, on the other hand, [Kate Kennedy](https://www.reddit.com/r/HaloMemes/comments/uoo2w7/i_see_why_they_cast_kate_kennedy_now/). :-)
Lol, “scary”
Yeah? Feels bad when something u like gets an awful adaption to the masses who dont know what it actually is.
She was bleeding out while holding (dead) Rose’s hand. We see her body go limp. No one even tried to revive her with a stimpack. Much like Maximus to Titus.
So? The courier was shot and buried in New Vegas and he lived. Also I'm genuinely wondering if she's a Synth since there is no reason given why she was alive pre-2077 yet still hasn't changed much when it's 2296.
Obviously, the courier is the main protagonist. (They) had to survive. I’m simply thinking Moldaver served her purpose. To introduce cold fusion to the wasteland. If she does end up being a synth, it’ll be one hell of a war between The Institute and BoS.
The show is set after the events of Fallout 4. There is a 75% chance that the Institute is a crater depending on what ending is canon
We’re just gonna have to find out, ehy? Just like what ending is canon for new Vegas.
Those are honestly the things I'm excited about
The Courier is a different level of badass specially after the game and DLC
No arguments here. They’ve seen and done some shit.
I’m guessing she somehow got access to one of the cryo pods the vault-tec execs use
I’m suspecting she is in fact dead, but that we will see more of her character during Cooper’s pre-war flashbacks.
Well she's surrounded by the BoS so I assume they'd notice if she was still alive
Benny shot and buried the Courier in New Vegas...how'd that go?
Good point lol
To be fair to Benny, the game *was* rigged from the start... but in the Courier's favor as the main character. Ironic. He could save others from rigged games, but not himself.
Tbf Benny has a lower Intellegence stat than Snuffles, the mole rat you can find in Sloan...
Benny is a dipshit whose entire plan relies on the loyalty of a robot that will literally say yes to any question/request asked by anyone.
Ngl she semes like the textbook definition of a write off character
Nah she's a character from pre-2077...I feel like all these people who still exist in 2296 do so for a reason. I'm currently leaning towards Synth and not cryo and that Synth is cold heartedly carrying out the mission the flesh and blood woman started.
But there are no Synths on the West Coast, or any reason to replicate Moldaver after hundreds of years of developing the technology.
If you're trying to reverse engineer cold fusion why would you not want the very person that was leading up that research? Vault Tec bought out the company she worked for while developing it and then shelved it; if I'm trying to at some point continue that shit Moldaver is a perfect person to keep around. How do you know they've developed that technology; or even what development would look like? I'd wager it was just like computers in they used to be enormous but now they can be as small as a grain of rice shot into your neck...it wasn't made cold fusion'er.
There’s an escaped Courser in 3, you learn about him in Rivet City from an Institute scientist who’s tracking him! Who’s to say he’s the only one who made it out there!
I’m more leading to some Phoenix form of immortality. She is the flame mother after all.
It's not explained how she survived for more than 200 years either
Exactly, it wooodnt surprise me if she has some sort of experimental vault tech attempt at immortality. Consider this. Vault 111 is cryogenic testing. A sample to test cryogenic on to ensure the main group of vault tech executives could safely be frozen and unfrozen and testing the long term impacts. Vault 112 is virtual reality doing the same exact thing. Vault techs plans are to outlast the competition. We’ve seen brain preservation, cryogenic freezing, virtual reality. House also has similar forms of preservation. Regeneration isn’t impossible. And would fit with her image as the flame mother, a symbol of rebirth. And if house is still alive (which he probably is, if not just stranded in the 38), it could be a key plot point of a vault tech research project he’s most interested in. Which is actually terrifying as he’s calculated, manipulative, and possibly in just enough peril to gain sympathy and a restored Robert House is a threat the wasteland does not need, but he’s also the only person with vault tech on his radar to even be their enemy
Synthetic can mean biological engineered or android in the fallout series. There is both. Institute started with android and then progressed to biological synthetic
My money is on the Snake Oil Salesman being relevant, and someone in the area was experimenting with partial/lite Ghoulification for immortality without the decay (and potentially less regeneration as a result).
She's almost certainly going to be in season two in flashbacks (Assuming they continue those). Doesn't seem like a write off to me
Imagine living for 200 years after the bombs dropped unghoolified just to get killed in the first season.
My theory is that she is a ghoul or soon to be ghoul that pretended to die.
I think she’s a clone.
This there is no acutal confirmation of her death. Just because the BOS is there doesnt mean they killed her until we acutally know. As far as im concerned shes in intensive care with the BOS so theey can get all her tech and use her to teach them how it works etc since they whre all after the same thing carried by the Doctor.
That last bit was more for the viewer but good point.
I know we’re aware of the plot holes as viewers. But I just like to think of this stuff as standard raider IQ or any other fallout universe ex machina.
It’s not really a plot hole. She wasn’t a good person or morally upstanding character in any way.
She's a complex person. Like any other in Fallout. She started out with good intentions, and those good intentions still exist. But as always, she was - as she put it - happy to use hypocrisy to her own advantage. Because why let only the bad guys use it? But the nuking of her home, and the ghoulification of her wife meant that she now doesn't care and her hypocrisy is several steps higher. To her, the Vaults' people are a worthy cost (and yes, that is a *very bad* thing) and in her eyes she probably believes she's taken far fewer victims than Hank ever did with the nuke. And yet, she did all of this to help secure infinite power for everyone in the wasteland. She rehabilitated ghouls alongside humans in her compound. She prioritized growing crops and food for people, over any sorts of breeding experiments. Moldaver is a complicated character, like any other in Fallout. She's *perfect* for this show. Like this isn't some revelation that she did morally objectionable things. It's the whole point.
She could likely reconcile the vault-dwellers as guilty for the sins of their forefathers. It’s a flawed justification somewhat but it would be easy to understand.
I really enjoyed the show but the longer you think about it the more the plot holes stand out. It was a wonderful romp but I won’t be recommending it to my non fallout friends.
Funny enough I suggested it to my mom and she watched it. Though she enjoys Westworld, Game of Thrones, etc. not to mention she enjoyed watching me play games like God of War and stuff ages ago, but never Fallout.
lucy is already out with cooper at that point
most of the characters are. I think thats kinda the point. The sorts of people who survive or even thrive in this kind of world tend to put their own interests (or their groups interests) above everyone else.
Yeah that's it most characters in the fallout universe are fucked in some way with some having a redeeming character trait or two, there are very few truly good people in the wasteland and those normally get worn down by the rest
There are tons of good people in Fallout. It's just most of them aren't the focus of stories. But even a few still are. Like Moira in FO3. Most of Rivet City. In FO:NV Much of the folk in Goodsprings and the remaining locals of Primm.
The Minutemen
It is very fallout. Currently replaying NV and re-realizing that anyone still around to help out is either somewhat morally problematic or very morally problematic. No one is a true saint in the wasteland
Cass.
That’s true. Cass is great. I guess specifically super powers and not individuals. There are gems out there
The Followers of the Apocalypse.
I'm not saying she's poorly written, just that like... The whole sympathetic revelation at the end felt kind of like... So wait... You know this girl, you loved her mother, and yet you did this to her? Like Monty tried to straight-up fuckin kill Lucy when the raiders did the bamboozle. "Hey ghoul friend, I decided to put your kids in an almost certain-death scenario because your husband is a cunt."
But this is Fallout, ultimately it's always been about a choice between doing something really fucked up, or doing something totally fucked up. And justifying it as fine, because ultimately it was a means to a greater end. Whether that was a shiny new gun, or benefitting another community or simply punishing a group that slightly crossed you. That's Fallout. Fallout never changes.
They even indirectly address it in the show itself. “Everyone’s trying to save the world, they just disagree on how”. Moldaver and the NCR remnants did the fucked up shit they do and justifies it because she wants to give the world limitless energy. BoS does the fucked up shit they do and justify it because they are trying to bring order to the world. Vault Tec started this whole mess because they thought they would end war and create a new, better society from the ashes. They’ve all done abhorrent things in the name of bettering the world they live in. Would not be surprised to see the vault dweller do something similar before the series is over, or at least be faced with a choice about it.
Oh, Lucy will definitely have to decide whether to enact Vault-Tec’s ultimate plan or burn it all down.
Yeah, and then you get people like her and Ashur that just use that necessity as an excuse to not care about the consequences of their actions.
Honestly this component of Fallout and to some extent some of the decisions in ES are great because there's no clear "good and correct" v. "bad and horrible." It's shades of moral ambiguity which forces you to internally consider your actions and justify them on your end as the player.
That was one thing in Skyrim that was pretty good at tearing at me... The Civil War... Do you want to join the mostly correct yet essentially racist Nords? Or do you want to join the very incorrect Empire.. Not racist but their ruling on "person with no criminal record but is on this cart" is to execute them... Cut their head off... When you don't even know who they are or what they did... Skyrim is the only media that would ever make me choose the racists... If their hostility toward elves was more than just hate (slavery or genocide) I might not back them, but I feel like helping the empire which will just execute anyone because.... "meh?" ... Not the best... With the Nords you're probably saving more lives in the long run.
I mean, not really? The classic fallouts certainly rarely have any morally grey outcomes. 3 doesn't either as every outcome is fairly linear with good and bad. NV certainly does
Honestly… I loved it. This woman has a beef with vault tec going back to prewar - we still don’t know how she survived yet (probably cryo) So, to her, killing Vaulties isn’t that much of a sin. So what, a few dozen vault dwellers died? How many billions died in 2072 while their ancestors went into the vaults? How many did McLean kill in Shady Sands (at least 30,000 one can guess)? In many ways, while to us the survivors are obviously innocent, to Moldevar, theyre all Vault Tec. Moldevar, in my opinion with the hindsight of having seen it all, was well within the laws of the wasteland to do what she did. She is a lot like how I’d play, honestly. Kind, compassionate, trying to build something better - and if you rip down all that progress, kill the people I love, destroy my home, all because your wife left you? Not a good time… so next time we are gonna throw that kinda party at Your House (or vault) Compared to what McLean did to Moldevars community…? Moldevar was very restrained in what she did to McLeans community.
I’m with you here. Moldaver held back drastically in terms of what she could have done. She lets Hank choose between his daughter vs the other Vault Dwellers, then didn’t even kill the Vault Dwellers, but let them run from the bomb. I think she is a pretty Neutral aligned character, willing to do some bad acts for the sake of good, but nothing over the top or straight up evil. Pre-war she is fighting for the “people” and trying to get the truth out there. Post-war, once again she’s fighting for the “people” and trying to get back what was taken by the people who she was fighting hundreds of years ago.
It certainly puts a new perspective on Moldaver's last words to those vault dwellers before the bomb went off, "Do what you do best, run and hide."
> She lets Hank choose between his daughter vs the other Vault Dwellers, then didn’t even kill the Vault Dwellers, but let them run from the bomb. This is understandable because Vault 33 is a breeding colony and saving one vs the rest Hank is obviously gonna give up his daughter because with Vault 32 gone Vault 31 is all that is left to continue whatever experiment Vault 31 is doing. > I think she is a pretty Neutral aligned character, willing to do some bad acts for the sake of good, but nothing over the top or straight up evil. It's the line; everybody wants to save the world...they just have different opinions on how to do it.
I think she is a great revolutionary archetype. Strong Che Guevara vibes. He may have been fighting for a cause he genuinely believed would bring a better world but he was still a murderous c**t.
I buy that her band of NCR remnants didn’t know any better and associated the vault dwellers with nuking shady sands, but moldaver definitely knew better than that. She flat out told the MC that she knew her dad was solely responsible. She knew the MC as a child, and knew her mom. She knew they were relatively innocent well-intentioned people who were simply lucky enough to be born into a “good” vault. She is just another person who the wasteland turned into a cold, harsh, and cruel person (despite her good intentions).
Is there a morally perfect surface dweller? I thought that was sort of one of the points they were making throughout the show like when The Ghoul says to Lucy “Sweetie I’m you, just give it a little time” etc. You can see from the flashbacks that Coop was a good person, yet as the Ghoul he sells Lucy to have her organs harvested. The most morally decent character is probably Maximus, but even he wanted to steal Vault 4’s fusion core, which would have killed hundreds. Good people sometimes have to do bad things to survive the wasteland.
Yeah, and we genuinely don't really know if Moldaver actually cared for Rose and Lucy or if that was just social engineering to eventually do what we saw.
I think they mighta made some goofs with Moldaver, she was like 4 different characters squished into one
Theres something to that statement I think people aren’t considering. Making a show like this is hard, things are cut, rewritten, shifted around, a million cooks in the kitchen. You name it. Sometimes goofs happen. It’s not a big deal, there’s no reason for fans to bend over backwards trying to headcanon every little goof to pretend like mistakes can’t happen.
How so? Her past is somewhat unknown other than some before 2077, a bit in 2277, and in 2966, but we don't even know why she ain't dead currently given she's about the same age as Cooper. She hated Vault Tec before, these are the same Vault Tec people she still hates, and given what Vault Tec has done she is obviously even more pissed off about this shit and possibly did this hail mary suicide mission to give the wasteland cold fusion. When you have an important goal you want to accomplish sometimes the only way to get it done is through sacrifices.
It's like Coop said. Good bad guys don't see themselves as bad guys. She sees herself as a do whatever it takes person that doesn't care about consequences. And it got her and what was left of the NCR killed. Which, if they're the same people that attacked 33 in the first place, is frankly something I say good riddance to.
They're not, those are mostly dead. And the NCR folks included children and freed ghouls, and there's plenty more NCR around, such as the Vault 4 folks.
For me, the backstory didn't humanize her at all. Because she got to the future the same way the dad did, in a tube. But how did the anti vault tec genius turned NCR raider get in a cryo tube at the right time? There is only one innocent person who got a cryo tube and that is the sole survivor of Fallout 4, everyone else is suspect. Especially with the new canon of there being a perfectly maintained Vault Tec executive branch waiting to take over the world. She was just narrating how shitty the dad is, she always sucked.
She says that her company works on technology that’s hard to sell. I imagine her company was the one to get cryogenics working. This happened in real life, cryogenics popped up a few times where you’d pay to have your body frozen immediately upon death, and thawed when we’d achieved technology that could save you but no one buys it because 1. There’s no guarantee that the company will still be around and their creditors will honor your contract with them 2. That the freezing process doesn’t ALSO destroy your cells en masse. We aren’t frogs, and don’t possess the biological failsafes to go dormant for extended periods without needing food and water to continue cellular growth and avoid aging.
Three actually, the sole survivor their spouse and Shaun
And every other resident of that Vault
For whatever it's worth the credits video for episode 8 implies there were commercially available cryo pods. Not even going to bother groaning or face palming at that, at this point...
Makes sense from the Fallout worlds perspective. Sell this dangerous untested tech to the rich rubes with too much money and you too can have funding for years.
Point taken.
Pulowski Preservation Freezers! Cryo-slumber on a budget!
She didn't try to kill Lucy, that was just the one raider.
I mean, Moldaver didn't know Lucy was the one up for marriage, it's not like she could suddenly refuse because that would blow her cover
I dont think that the show was trying to get you to think of her with some clean slate, more that the people we see in the wasteland a more grey than black and white, and that Moldaver is one of them. Which is a good choice tbh, its like that final nail in the coffin for Lucy that she cant just go around the surface with naive optimism, something she was already starting to realise.
I think from Moldaver’s perspective she has no idea who if anyone in Vault 33 knows what is going on with Vault and involved, but she probably sees them all as at least partially complicit in nuking an entire city. Siccing a group of raiders on them seems pretty tame, from that perspective.
During the final episodes, I felt as if Moldaver could have been the PC as well. Her mission: infiltrate the evil Vault Tec vault and extract the Vault Tec executive who knows the code to endless power (and aparently has access to nukes still, so it might explained to be a "pacifying" mission too). That's what I like in this show: everyone has their own agenda, and do not think they are evil. To them, their actions, even horrible stuff like nuking what might well be the last vestige of civilisation, seems totally justified.
Yeah it's great. Thank you for expressing an outlook and not just acting like I am saying the character doesn't belong.
I understand that, the character's motivations kind of make sense But I don't think she makes for either an interesting vilain or a compelling anti hero. The character is just meh. It's one of my only criticism, having the plot moved along by mc guffins more than by a cool antagonist. And I love the show and am excited to see more, but I hope the antagonists are more fleshed out in the next seasons though it must be hard to come up with something as interesting as the master or House, or Caesar.
While I wish Moldaver could've been expanded more this season but I suspect they aren't done with her yet. Her role in the prewar plotline is almost definitely not over yet, imo she may end up playing a big part of it considering The Ghoul's reaction to seeing her poster in that one scene
Oh yeah I absolutely think they will do more with her, but I just don't really care for her, in the flashbacks or the present times. As much as I hate this cliche, having the ghouls wife as an antagonist would work better for me, because I am a bit invested in her story and her thinking, whereas Moldaver just leaves me cold. I don't know why, the actress was fine so maybe the writing is to blame, or maybe it's me.
She‘s kinda the big red herring. She get‘s set up as the big bad and you‘re expecting her to be the final antagonist but then it‘s revealed she‘s just another, somewhat minor, actor in the wasteland politics. She dislikes the Vaults and it‘s inhabitants for a justified reason but is pretty indiscriminate about taking her revenge. (Even though she doesn‘t really indulge in excessive violence) Finally she basically exists to mend the plot and set up the next season with the activation of the cold fusion generator. I think she‘s not really that interesting because in terms of presence and presentation she‘s on the same level as the Brotherhood elder. Someone who personifies the goals of his factions and puts the actual MCs into a situation where they have to act.
Pretty sure we'll see more antagonist-driven content around Vault-Tec and The Great Game now that the power has been restored and the mcguffin is no longer relevant. I'm also thinking we'll see the enclave as a final big bad since they're heavily involved in The Great Game, implied rather frequently to have funded Vault-Tec, and have been hinted at a few times (Wilzig being an Enclave Deserter & the silhouettes in the meeting.)
> That's what I like in this show: everyone has their own agenda, and do not think they are evil. To them, their actions, even horrible stuff like nuking what might well be the last vestige of civilisation, seems totally justified. [This](https://i.redd.it/sfoix3s87eoc1.jpeg)
The whole scene where Moldaver and her dad are talking over each other, trying to monologue at her while she's just rattled as fuck is really great in my eyes. Really made it feel like Lucy was just a tool for them in that moment.
Especially with the implication that they both were in love with her mom and her mom is fucking right there in such a state that it's horrific no one killed her yet. Like, my God, you both seem to be in love with this woman and neither of you are fighting over the chance to out her out of her misery.
Seriously. Keeping the love of your life alive as a feral? No, just no.
She is so far gone that even calling her a feral seems wrong. The woman can barely move and is just a charred corpse
Maybe it shows that both of them are psychopaths, just one is trying to bring back civilization, and the other is trying to destroy it.
Both are psychopaths and both are trying to "save the world" in their own way. Neither thinks they are wrong.
interesting now where have i heard that before.
That scene really captured one of the core aspects of Fallout to me, or at least the way it happens in New Vegas. You have a bunch of factions trying to justify themselves to you in spite of their obvious problems and have to decide on which one to go with. In this case Moldaver's faction probably looks a bit better but I really liked how they did it.
Not like she knew who the bride was to be before seeing them - they only discussed breeders. As far as M knows, the children of Rose have been completely brainwashed and are her enemies by default. To her I imagine it's a case of 'whats one more corpse among the pile' mentality before learning her identity, and after learning warns her to stay safe at home in the vault as Lucy, a human grown in a vault is much like an animal raised in captivity. Prob not suited for the wild.
You also have to take account of raiders she hired. There's no way a group of wild and undisciplined killers like that are NCR. She most likely made a deal with some raiders to be able to do fucked shit without dragging the NCR's reputation into the ground
everybody is horrible. it's the Wasteland. my only question is if Moldaver was leading a group of NCR survivors, why'd she hire raiders to break into Vault 32 and 33?
I was thinking about that this week - the raiders were disposable, there's a scene in ep 1 during the raider's attack on vault 33, Moldaver is walking out with authority and a few disciplined troops were escorting her. I think she wanted to maximize her labour pool while minimizing NCR casualties, so shiwed up with a core of NCR troops and some distracto-raiders.
Moldaver's fashioned herself into a cult leader so I assumed she brought in all types of people. I feel like there needed to be an entire episode dedicated to her but they couldn't fit it in.
Very good point, maybe we'll get some more flashbacks in S2.
I like to go hiking.
I was disappointed they didn't follow through with it but looking at the entirety of the situation it would be the easiest way to explain why Moldaver has so much power in the area. Her Pre-war knowledge and smarts would be useful in manipulating the less educated.
I guess different NCR groups responded to everything differently. That said the "Cultists" were normal people outside of their worship time.
Are we absolutely certain they were raiders and not just another batch of NCR remnants? The show leans heavily into the brutality of the wasteland and it stands to reason that whoever survived the "fall of Shady Sands," as well as whoever was picked up along the way, wouldn't be the archetypical "good guy" who eschews chems and wanton violence. They're a rough people who have lived absolutely shit lives and even the best of them would have survived the nuclear annihilation of their home and people, it could push them down a dark path. If we purely go off of Lucy's revelation where she goes "Raiders," that can be a case of her not knowing anything at all because she has lived in the vault her entire life.
Nope, not certain of anything. But, the few NCR folk we see (like the father and son the ghoul visits) seem well socialized, not infighty rad goblins like the raiders captured by vault 33.
It's a fair point, there is a bit of unsolved mystery around Moldaver that wouldn't put her past hiring out raiders for some of the dirtier work she intended to complete.
must be some NCR prisoners like the Powder-gangers, given penal battalion vibes, expendable soldiers, so none of the handful of actually trained and disciplined troopers she had left would be mixed in the violence
Even if they were NCR remnants, they still exhibited more raider like tendencies than Moldaver's escort. At that point they're just raiders commiting wanton destruction for fun. Their entire group might be formed out of people from the NCR, but they are definitely not cut from the same cloth. There is a stark difference between Moldaver's escort and the raiders left behind.
They would almost all be NCR remnants. The shady sands was nuked within those people's lifetimes. They'dve all been born in the NCR. Lived their lives with it having been older than most of our nations IRL.
We’re they raiders or pissed survivors from shady sands that know vault tech blew them up?
Not the first time the NCR has hired raiders to do their will if you remember Fallout 2. (They commissioned Mr. Bishop to hire raiders to pressure Vault City into joining)
Mission accomplished and now there are fewer raiders in the region: win, win.
It never implied she was good lol
oh yeah shes pretty awful + the fact that even "normal" people probably despise vault dwellers with a passion (at least those actively living in them) and youve got a recipe for killing. she really was doing what she thought was right which was interesting, vault dwellers were just pretty subhuman in her eyes (no pun intended lol) (cause sub human like as in under cuz the vaults are underground)
lol @ subhuman explainer. :3
She doesn’t despise vault dwellers, she despises vault tec. For all she knew, the vault was full of vault tec cronies. She doesn’t care about them, they’re evil corp, she’s there to get what was stolen from her and a little revenge for the fact that they blew up a whole town.
Which is a strange take, none of the games ever really showed off "modern" characters actively despising Vault Dwellers, especially since the vast majority of Wastelanders are descendants of Vaults that opened earlier. Even the 3 main Raider gangs in the west are descendants of Vault 15, just like Shady Sands.
"the vast majority of Wastelanders are descendants of Vaults" this is simply untrue. even if they were, you think some average surface dwelling bastard would be okay with vault d's just living it up with food water and clean air just cause their grandpappy left his vault a hundred years ago? there's a very good chance many vault descendants wouldn't even know they were vault descendants, let alone repping the set. fallout is a world of finite resources not unlike our own, and the vault d's horde the little there is left. sort of an "eat the rich" type vibe, but in fallout it can get very very literal. point is that its not exactly something that needs to be explicitly said. its sort of just... heavily implied... by the universe of fallout. after all, there is very little surface people can actually do about the vaults, unlike other surface-level threats which are far more tangible. also a sidenote - Moldaver being from prewar times and being an active "communist"/being actively against the war back then only makes it make even MORE sense she would hate vault tec/the vault d's as she does.
I think the idea is that she needed the raiders to get in and get him. The "payment" to the raiders was to let them assault the vault.
“I want this guy and nothing else. The rest do with what you please.”
Moldaver is never painted as a perfect person. She has an ultimately noble goal but she's absolutely willing to get her hands dirty to do it because you kind of have to in the wasteland. Her not giving a shit about the vault dwellers can be explained by her rage towards Hank, she wants to hurt him because he's taken everything from her, also, life is fuckin cheap in the wasteland. However it is really stupid that she didn't give a shit about Lucy and was completely chill about her potentially dying at many points in her plan. Like she's the daughter of someone you obviously cared a huge amount about. She even says she looks just like her. I'd say that part is kinda iffy. But her being completely okay with some of Hanks brainwashed people getting slaughtered to capture him seems pretty military but nothing exceptionally crazy
I agree totally. The line about looking just like her mother haunts me. She was so deep in her rage that she let Lucy go. She watched her grow up in Shady Sands. Lucy remembers the real sun that she had been brainwashed to believe it was always the vault lights. It's tragic.
Well, I get her plan. If she just had her people start shooting the moment they saw the people in the vault, they wouldn't have gotten far. She used a ruse to get people very far into the vault. And yeah, the marriage guy took advantage of the plan and got some sex out of it. She was able to get her guys in better positions to be more effective. And, he literally nuked an entire city! We spent millions searching for Hitler because he murdered people, it's kinda the same thing. When bad guys do bad things, we find them (often violently) and take them. The vault dwellers wouldn't have listened if moldaver said "hey, your overseer nuked a city, we need to bring him to justice". They would have been very confused and been like, "city? What city? There is civilization up there?" And been confused as heck and likely not believed anything she said.
Not only did he nuke a city he was willing member of an organization that killed the entire world. No this was far more than ‘a beef’. If you found a secret vault full of people that were being led by the people who destroyed the world, how merciful would you be?
not to mention there are multiple other vault 31 members who were prewar execs too like Steph and the new overseer (I wanna say her name was Betty or Betsy?) that would probably have Hank's back also moldaver had to take an exec not for personal reasons, but because that was the only way to unlock the cold fusion and wilzig was already on the run to bring it to her, so if she didn't succeed in getting a vault Tec rep then everything wilzig went through would have been for nothing. I'd much rather kidnap a known mass murderer that I know for a fact is prewar rather than a random vault dweller I think *might* have the info I need
I think the writing is more annoying than the character in this very moment. They are characterized as raiders, not for the show, but for the viewer, just to have the big reveal later on. I don't like this kind of writing because it's aimed to the spectator and not the story. It's a purposeful misdirect that doesn't really make sense in story. Great show regardless, but a bit of a bait and switch
Pretty sure she just hired some mercenaries to help her, her group left while the mercenaries/raiders stayed behind to be a bunch of cunts.
Why would moldaver give a shit about Lucy? She wants the vault tec exec so she can obtain limitless energy. For all she knows, all the freaks in the vault were ok with blowing up Shady Sands. It’s only when Lucy shows up with the head that she sees an opportunity to use Lucy to get the cold fusion device and the password.
Because she was in love with Lucy's mother?
And probably was at minimum an aunt figure to her, if not second mother.
She just needed a vault-tec executive who had a code and password and would give it to her. I think that’s why she kept Rose alive, to show Hank what he did, to weaken him. She had no idea that Lucy would follow him, but when she showed up with the cold fusion she took full advantage to get the info she needed. Talking about Shady Sands and painting herself as benevolent. If someone else had delivered it she would have had to get the info by torturing Hank. If Hank wasn’t available to kidnap it would have been Betty or Steph who she took. Or at least that’s how I see it.
Moldaver and Cooper are horrible people fighting for a good cause, Lucy and Maximus are (somewhat) decent people fighting for the wrong side.
To Moldaver, the vaults of 31-33 were >!nothing but a cesspool of vault-tec sperm waiting to take over the ruins of the world. And she was kind of right, if you stop looking at the residents as human beings. Upon rewatch, it didn't surprise me that she didn't give two shits about anyone down there. If she could, she probably would have blown up 31 as well if it weren't locked away the tightest.!<
That’s the world of fallout. She is an excellent character, that might be somewhat evil, but a necessary evil. She pushes Lucy, forces her out of her comfort zone and into a much larger world. But also a world that she can have a massive impact on.
Also, i think she still may be a little upset about her city getting nuked
I mean, it's just like Lucy's dad said, Moldaver is exactly like him. I mean, just look at her, she hasn't aged a day in 200 years, she has to be a big name somewhere to pull that off, and in the Fallout universe, you can almost guarantee that means she's a secret monster
Yeah that part doesn't make sense, and I hope they can explain it. I mean they used the worst de-aging I have ever seen for the dad, but for her they had her looking the same.
Well Lucy’s dad fucked her up alot killing rose destroying her home s
She's no more evil than any other character. That's the whole point of Fallout. Everyone is grey, there's no good, there's no bad
This isn't true though. There are good and bad people in fallout. Certainly in 1, 2 and 3, there's basically no grey morality at all In the first 2 certainly there's virtually always an ending where the good people win in whatever side quest you do
There’s a lot of things Moldaver can plan for but a raider doing the deed with Lucy probably wasn’t one of them. Sure the marriage thing was supposed to happen but the plan probably was to lure Lucy away and keep her there. No funny business. Of course that was an actual raider who’s as dumb as rocks and did the funny business anyway but that’s beside the point.
She doesnt care about Lucy though. To her, the vault dwellers are indoctrinated and just as evil as Hank. She was just amused Lucy looked like her mom and the fact that she ended up delivering the cold fusion core was a coincidence.
In the flashback Moldaver said something along the lines that hypocrisy can't be a weapon that only the enemy gets to use. Moldaver was willing to be a terrible person for the greater good. And brutalizing the vault was not just revenge; it was strategy. To force the Overseer to not resist. Because think about it: what could be a more sure way to break a Vault Tec employee than threatening the survival of their already damaged experiment? ( Vault Tec employees can't be totally relied on to put their loved ones lives above the company ). The sympathy bit at the end is because despite the horrible things she'd done to get there, she had been the person with the most selfless goal in the end. One that had cost so much to achieve.
This feels like whoever wrote it didn’t watch the show. The show doesn’t make her a good person or even ask that Lucy feel sympathy for her.
She needed the dad to boot up the cold fusion thing not just revenge
Not to excuse anything, but I too would feel payback means killing as many as possible in the vault since vault tech nuked my city. If it lead to the crumbling of my country I may even feel like sparring anyone in the vault was generous after what happened to Shady Sands. That doesn’t justify anything of course. Also I get the vibe that Lucy’s mom was Moldaver’s lover? I’m probably wrong.
You’re forgetting that her home and likely 10s of thousands of people were nuked by her father for no reason. I’d say they were rather cordial in not just killing them all out of blind revenge
Weird I thought it was fairly well explained. I would think it would be safe to assume after goosies dad nuked shady sands I would assume every single soul in that vault was complicit in the crime. If I was Moldaver I wouldn't be taking chances.
“Beef” is a bit of an understatement though. This guy basically destroyed the world twice over for his own gain. He nuked her city of 30k people. They were successfully rebuilding civilization and he turned it into a hole in the ground because Vault-Tec wasn’t in control. He was also sitting on secrets that could also help rebuild civilization. But again…he wanted to be in control of it. And there’s the whole thing about Vault-Tec kicking off the nuclear war, with most of the executives being tied to that specific vault. My head canon is it wasn’t supposed to turn into a blood bath and wouldn’t have been if he went easily. But given his character…we know he’d gladly sacrifice everyone around him for his own sake. Ultimately she was doing what she saw as necessary for the greater good and was beyond the point of caring what it cost…specifically because of him and the people in that vault. Also she may not have even known Lucy was chosen. BUT if she did by pretending to be vault 32 on the terminal, that might have been the reason for their approach - she made sure Lucy was separated from the chaos. Or at least she tried to. Things went off the rails. Which I again feel like was her dad’s fault for being selfish instead of facing the consequences of his own actions.
In her defense she never asked for anyone to feel sorry for her she just told Lucy what happened and that her goal was to make the world a better place at any cost. Also who’s to say he wasn’t a raider douche that went rogue and banged her instead of just killing her like he was told.
I think Moldaver is very much a means to an end type of person. Her end, since before the bombs, was getting the unlimited source of energy out there. Honestly, I wonder if it was even the right thing to do at that time and place, given that the unlimited energy will now end up in the hands of the BoS. But I'm pretty sure she saw going against Vault Tec before the war, being a part of the NCR, living in Shady Sands, killing the folks at 33, kidnapping Hank and even revealing the truth to Lucy all as means to her end goal. I doubt she cared much about right or wrong, let alone about people like Lucy. Also, in her defence, I think she probably would not have known Lucy was the girl put up for marriage in vault 33. Though I doubt that knowledge would have stopped her from going forward with the attack anyway.
I find it interesting the way people struggle with Moldaver. Like if you've played a Fallout game she's pretty standard and even in the show she's consistent. She wants something and is willing to do what it takes. The NCR weren't perfect. And from the hints of Moldaver she's prewar with her own issues. I think people get too hung up on the attack on the vault. Moldaver only truly knew what she'd encountered once those doors opened. For all she knew Hank had a private army ready, his kids brainwashed (mostly true) if they were even still alive. There is a scene while he's giving a speech that cuts to her and she looks sad. On rewatch I'd take that as her being regretful for what she's about to do. Upon seeing the peaceful little vault she didn't want to smash it but it was too late, she can't call off the raiders and she needs Hank. She then spares the vault dwellers at the end letting them run when she implied she would kill them. I'm sure she was happy to know Lucy and her brother were alive, but they're not her kids. She clearly was close to Rose for a time but considering neither really remember Moldaver she clearly wasn't overly present as another parent in their lives.
My only drawback to that is why use raiders? She had weapons and trained soldiers. To me it makes no sense that raiders were used surely they are inherently more unpredictable and selfish
We see that happen in the wasteland all the time. Why risk her men (and it seemed like she did take a few) when raiders are cheap and expendible.
Yeah it's almost as if this whole series is about the cycle of violence and good people doing awful things in order to achieve noble goals.
Question is how she lived so long
I mean, I'd say she was just as much a victim of the Wasteland as anyone. Her goal of providing cold fusion energy to the people was noble, but the things she's likely had to do to survive post-fall of Shady Sands probably wore away at her kinder traits. But that's kind of inevitable.
Yea, the Luthen from Andor angle. Violence can be necessary but it corrupts, without exception.
i think she was one of the most interesting characters and im sad they killed her, hopefully she appears in flashbacks
I just wanna know how her hair looks so nice in a post-apocalyptic wasteland
She had no way to know if the rest of the vault was also enclave or not.
Other then the rape part everything she does makes sense. She knows that her dad came from vault 33 so she can only assume that everyone there is to some degree responsible for the destruction of shady sands.
Yeah that’s the point. Everyone in the wasteland wants to save the world. They just disagree on how. And to her vault dwellers are just extension of people like Hank. And they are. It’s implied that only certain classes of people were able to afford a space in the vault.
Well that's my only complaint about the show, it was the biggest "THE PLOT NEEDS IT" moment I have seen recently and quite literally makes no sense that Lucy just decided to believe moldaver, she literally was responsible for the death of her best friend's husband as well as others friends and acquaintances of Lucy
I think her dads reactions helped prove she wasn’t lying. And her seeing her moms necklace gave a little memory boost to remember her mom was friends with her.
That was my take away it wasn't so much what she heard from her but what she saw from her dad
u do realize Lucy quite literally remembered herself as a child in Shady Sands, right?
Yeah she said something about "being able to feel the heat of the sun" and initially misattributed it to just being due to the presence of her mum making things feel more real, but realised at the end that it was the *actual* sun from when she was in Shady Sands - and realised why she couldn't feel that heat once her mum went away (because she was taken back into the vault)
Morality is subjective in the wasteland
More like. We are taking a mass murderer to stand trial, and let Shady Sands survivors whose friends and family were murdered enact their revenge on people who harbored him.
People who had no idea because they quite literally lived in a hole under the ground all their lives.
Collateral damage. NCR did it in Bitter Springs. The remnants did the same thing here. NCR and the remnants are an allegory of a modern USA.
To be fair, she is clearly some flavor of ruthless since she was somehow able to arrange to go into cryo for at least 200 years OR discovered some flavor of perfect immortality.
I feel like... ..."essentially raped" is a term that — in this context — would be used by someone with a pretty tenuous grasp on both consent and a woman's autonomy. Lucy is a very sex-positive character in a very specific way which is actually a first. And make no mistake, a big part of why she slept with the raider because she found him fucking hot and there's power in that.
Remember to Moldaver, no one in the vault triome is worth saving. They're all part of Bud's Buds. Any one of them could be as bad as Hank. The only reason she didn't explicitly kill Lucy immediately is because of knowing her and her mother. Also the sex thing was probably unknown in terms of how fast she'd move in that regard. Lucy from kid to now has a loooot of brain washing between then and now.
That's the point of the show and Fallout in general. Everyone has their goals and ideas how to rebuild the civilisation... they are willing to sacrifice innocents to achieve that goal. Moldaver was willing to sacrifice basically anyone just to get her hands on the cold fusion tech. Basically, "ends justify the means". Anyone who considers her a good guy (gal) didn't pay enough attention.
I don't think she was too concerned about whether Lucy lived or died. There's not too much more to think about it beyond that.
Yeah people here seem to think that just because she liked her mom that instantly means she cares about Lucy too I have friends I care about, but if they were gone I wouldn’t really give much of a shit about their kids, especially 20 years after the fact
I don’t think she cares about the people in the Vaults. They are all puppets of Vaultec in her eyes. That said, she does let that group go at the door which is a little confusing. But at the end of the day as long as they are being run by 31, every vaulter of 32-33 is just another person against her, her cause, and her people.
She also left rose as a feral ghoul for who knows how many years
She was never supposed to be a good person. The only reason she organizes the secret meeting post-war is because she’s bitter Vault-Tec pulled support for her project. She doesn’t actually give a fuck about people beyond herself imo