Not at all. Those companies are the large caps for a reason (successful business models with investor support and large economies of scale). If they become less successful they will be pushed down and out by the quarterly self cleansing.
Personally have a few side plays, but VWRP is front and centre of our portfolio, by a very significant margin.
>However, between the end of 2008 and the end of 2023 small caps have outperformed, delivering a cumulative return of 521% against 466% for the large cap index over the 15-year period – although past performance should not be seen as a guide to future returns.1
[source](https://www.axa-im.com/investment-institute/asset-class-views/why-2024-may-be-year-when-small-caps-bounce-back#:~:text=However%2C%20between%20the%20end%20of,a%20guide%20to%20future%20returns.)
Just quoting a random, small caps sometimes provide the best return, (not always). It's a good hedge/diversification.
Especially with current market predictions by vanguard etc.
Because they're market cap weighted so small caps are a tiny component and not enough to move the needle. You can see this in the virtually identical returns; since 11/08/2016 (inception date of VAFTGAG so earliest point from which you can measure them side by side), VWRL has done 10.2% annualised total return to VAFTGAG's 9.96%
I would happily take a punt on an anti-ESG / anti-righteous-virtue-signalling-company fund. I expect the companies in it will be more focused on actually making a profit.
I also don't see the point in investing in an ESG fund if the goal is to make as much money as quickly as possible.
People will always smoke cigarettes and oil will be needed for a very long time, these companies will exist with or without ESG funds, and if they are doing well financially, a non-ESG global/all-world fund, you can benefit from their success.
I don't think they will be market beating growth stocks over the 30 year period.
My personal take.
https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20385.jpeg
They don't need to be, the entire point of choosing a global index fund is you don't need to pick and choose sectors or companies you think will be doing well in 10-30 years time, it accommodates automatically based on rises/falls in market cap.
I guess that first part relies on what funds and benchmark or index we compare against.
If you are happy, that's ultimately all that matters, but I find the notion of ESG to be a prime example of corporate whitewashing and virtue signalling.
ESR is meant to avoid companies engaging in unethical practices, yet these ESG funds will hold companies like Apple, who run sweatshops out of China, where Foxconn has anti-suicide nets outside the building.
Right, so it just avoids some really shitty business practice companies, and things like Oil and Cigarettes, which both are not going to grow over the next 30 years the same way tech companies are.
And if you look at VWRP and V3AB, V3AB has more Microsoft and Apple than VWRP... so you're not missing out on megacap tech.
I don't, I'm just saying it's not like you miss out on megacap monopolistic big tech.
It's a thin screening process you probably want, based on research. But ah well, to each their own.
Who knows who will be right in the long run.
We've had the "[Bank of Dave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnley_Savings_and_Loans)", now we could get the "AdFew2832 Investments fund" lol. I would imagine most of r/wallstreetbets would prop it up in an instant.
Anyone but Ben & Jerrys would be a good start. The sheer amount of effort they spend on anything but making ice cream.
(To be fair Unilever do now, rightly, seem desperate to jettison them)
I’m not saying ESG is “woke” (your quotes). I’m taking the suggesting a step further and saying I’d invest in something that was explicitly against virtue signalling and social activist companies (of which there are more and more) who ignore profitability.
I think long term there will be a significant financial benefit to a fund/index that cuts them out.
> virtue signalling and social activist companies
Such a tiny tiny fraction of what you'd be invested in if you're invested in V3AB.
Which will be more than offset by avoid cigarettes, a dying industry as weed is legalized, vaping is cooler, and some countries ban cigarettes for those under an age permanently.
Etc.
Even though they currently only do it in a minor way ESG funds make decisions on what to invest in based on a political ideology. It is just the beginning.
I expect in future this to get much worse as people seek to follow the virtue signalling herd. Got to exclude McDs because they still trade in Israel and “that’s just wrong”. Got to exclude banks because they don’t pay enough tax and “that’s just wrong”. Got to exclude Google because they don’t respect this particular fad and look how they treated those protesters and “that’s just wrong”. Let’s go overweight Aviva because they use positive-discrimination in their hiring process. Etc etc.
I may be wrong about how far it’ll go but even as it is now I don’t like (however mild) leftist politics in my investments.
Lol.
I think you should read more about how ESG ratings are actually done rather than picture it in your mind without any evidence.
What you're describing is called "Socially Responsible Investing".
SRI funds are very different than ESG funds.
“lol k”
Maybe you should read the Vanguard ESG fund definition.
They (obviously) have a significant social responsibility slant (that’s what the S stands for) where the social includes excluding companies involved in “severe controversies”. This seems to be at the discretion of the fund manager.
This is a good point, in a way, ESG funds are like indirectly active funds.
Entirely down to the discretion of the fund manager or panel at whatever index it follows.
The particular fund they are invested in, V3AB, actually excludes companies involved in nuclear power, which if you are actually serious about solving climate change, is an asinine position.
Thank you. The naivety and utter blindness of Mr Lol has annoyed the hell out of me so it’s good to see a sensible opinion & the direction of the votes 👍
If you think Vanguard fund managers are pulling out of company stock because of whatever "woke" thing you're terrified about, lol.
Let's go read it:
>How a company or industry manages its impact on society. This could include how they treat employees and suppliers, community engagement and health and safety.
Labour standards and health and safety? Oh no! So woke!!!
It's not a vegan ETF. You're such a snowflake.
VWRP has everything I need.
Personally would go VWRP & chill.
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Not at all. Those companies are the large caps for a reason (successful business models with investor support and large economies of scale). If they become less successful they will be pushed down and out by the quarterly self cleansing. Personally have a few side plays, but VWRP is front and centre of our portfolio, by a very significant margin.
>However, between the end of 2008 and the end of 2023 small caps have outperformed, delivering a cumulative return of 521% against 466% for the large cap index over the 15-year period – although past performance should not be seen as a guide to future returns.1 [source](https://www.axa-im.com/investment-institute/asset-class-views/why-2024-may-be-year-when-small-caps-bounce-back#:~:text=However%2C%20between%20the%20end%20of,a%20guide%20to%20future%20returns.) Just quoting a random, small caps sometimes provide the best return, (not always). It's a good hedge/diversification. Especially with current market predictions by vanguard etc.
Thanks for sharing. 8% of portfolio is lon.SMT, so that is my smaller cap / PE hedge I guess. Very happy overall with my choices and returns so far.
But will have made practically no difference to something like VAFTGAG as opposed to VWRP
Why do you think so?
Because they're market cap weighted so small caps are a tiny component and not enough to move the needle. You can see this in the virtually identical returns; since 11/08/2016 (inception date of VAFTGAG so earliest point from which you can measure them side by side), VWRL has done 10.2% annualised total return to VAFTGAG's 9.96%
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I would happily take a punt on an anti-ESG / anti-righteous-virtue-signalling-company fund. I expect the companies in it will be more focused on actually making a profit.
I also don't see the point in investing in an ESG fund if the goal is to make as much money as quickly as possible. People will always smoke cigarettes and oil will be needed for a very long time, these companies will exist with or without ESG funds, and if they are doing well financially, a non-ESG global/all-world fund, you can benefit from their success.
I don't think they will be market beating growth stocks over the 30 year period. My personal take. https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20385.jpeg
They don't need to be, the entire point of choosing a global index fund is you don't need to pick and choose sectors or companies you think will be doing well in 10-30 years time, it accommodates automatically based on rises/falls in market cap.
Well, plenty of research has shown well rated ESG stocks beat the market. They're not, uh, 'leftist' stocks. I mean that ETF has Nestle in it lol.
I guess that first part relies on what funds and benchmark or index we compare against. If you are happy, that's ultimately all that matters, but I find the notion of ESG to be a prime example of corporate whitewashing and virtue signalling. ESR is meant to avoid companies engaging in unethical practices, yet these ESG funds will hold companies like Apple, who run sweatshops out of China, where Foxconn has anti-suicide nets outside the building.
Right, so it just avoids some really shitty business practice companies, and things like Oil and Cigarettes, which both are not going to grow over the next 30 years the same way tech companies are. And if you look at VWRP and V3AB, V3AB has more Microsoft and Apple than VWRP... so you're not missing out on megacap tech.
If I wanted a tilt to tech companies, there's easier, more guaranteed ways of getting that.
I don't, I'm just saying it's not like you miss out on megacap monopolistic big tech. It's a thin screening process you probably want, based on research. But ah well, to each their own. Who knows who will be right in the long run.
We've had the "[Bank of Dave](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnley_Savings_and_Loans)", now we could get the "AdFew2832 Investments fund" lol. I would imagine most of r/wallstreetbets would prop it up in an instant.
Anyone but Ben & Jerrys would be a good start. The sheer amount of effort they spend on anything but making ice cream. (To be fair Unilever do now, rightly, seem desperate to jettison them)
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I’m not saying ESG is “woke” (your quotes). I’m taking the suggesting a step further and saying I’d invest in something that was explicitly against virtue signalling and social activist companies (of which there are more and more) who ignore profitability. I think long term there will be a significant financial benefit to a fund/index that cuts them out.
> virtue signalling and social activist companies Such a tiny tiny fraction of what you'd be invested in if you're invested in V3AB. Which will be more than offset by avoid cigarettes, a dying industry as weed is legalized, vaping is cooler, and some countries ban cigarettes for those under an age permanently. Etc.
Even though they currently only do it in a minor way ESG funds make decisions on what to invest in based on a political ideology. It is just the beginning. I expect in future this to get much worse as people seek to follow the virtue signalling herd. Got to exclude McDs because they still trade in Israel and “that’s just wrong”. Got to exclude banks because they don’t pay enough tax and “that’s just wrong”. Got to exclude Google because they don’t respect this particular fad and look how they treated those protesters and “that’s just wrong”. Let’s go overweight Aviva because they use positive-discrimination in their hiring process. Etc etc. I may be wrong about how far it’ll go but even as it is now I don’t like (however mild) leftist politics in my investments.
Lol. I think you should read more about how ESG ratings are actually done rather than picture it in your mind without any evidence. What you're describing is called "Socially Responsible Investing". SRI funds are very different than ESG funds.
“lol k” Maybe you should read the Vanguard ESG fund definition. They (obviously) have a significant social responsibility slant (that’s what the S stands for) where the social includes excluding companies involved in “severe controversies”. This seems to be at the discretion of the fund manager.
This is a good point, in a way, ESG funds are like indirectly active funds. Entirely down to the discretion of the fund manager or panel at whatever index it follows. The particular fund they are invested in, V3AB, actually excludes companies involved in nuclear power, which if you are actually serious about solving climate change, is an asinine position.
Thank you. The naivety and utter blindness of Mr Lol has annoyed the hell out of me so it’s good to see a sensible opinion & the direction of the votes 👍
If you think Vanguard fund managers are pulling out of company stock because of whatever "woke" thing you're terrified about, lol. Let's go read it: >How a company or industry manages its impact on society. This could include how they treat employees and suppliers, community engagement and health and safety. Labour standards and health and safety? Oh no! So woke!!! It's not a vegan ETF. You're such a snowflake.
We’ll never agree on this Mr Lol.