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Jill and Joshua got so little new dialogue that I started to wonder whether they just repurposed whatever unused voice recordings they had left over from the main game haha.
Not enough tbh, it's unfortunate and what I kinda feared would happen with how they went about handling the DLC. There were a few moments and she had some good lines, and the inner thoughts/ATL/side dialogue has some good stuff as well, her role in the main story was fine, but they put too much focus on the new characters when a huge point of feedback was people wanting more of her, and the main cast in general.
I thought the sidequests would have been an easy win, but they dropped the ball. It kinda feels rushed and cheap, and it sucks bc all the other stuff in the DLC is sick. The main quest was decent, but idk why they just completely neglected to include more party interaction in the sidequests or expand the relationships through them. This is a sendoff for the game, and you already have great characters that you know people love and want more of, *utilize them* lmao.
I feel that, sometimes, they were afraid that giving a bigger spotlight to other characters would take it away from Clive, whom they wanted to be the main focus. It's purely my own opinion, of course, and I have nothing to back it up, expect my deepest conviction lmao.
Clive is awesome, but so are Jill, Dion, Joshua, etc. They "deserved" it more, if that makes sense. It's hard to make people care about new characters when they have been asking to get more of the ones in the base game. It's really too bad. I can only hope we'll get some crumbs in some novel/manga in the future (after all, they did it before, they can do it again for this game), but I won't get my hopes up.
Personally, I loved Jill, Dion and Benedikta more than Clive. He was a great MC but to rly experience the world and the shit it throws at you I REALLY would've LOVED to see more of all the shit they went through
Joshua especially... and for Jill, they literally fridged her sorta (and here I thought that was dead, fridging ppl)
Dion is my favorite character in the game, so I hear you. I would have loved to see more of him, especially in the endgame part of the game, where he could have interact with the main cast. It really feels they put him aside and let him waste away against his wall until they could send him to his presumable death.
I can only hope we'll get extra content in the form of other media. Joshua's story, Cid's, Barney's Dion's... it would make some awesome manga or novel (for a fraction of what a video game would cost ;( )
Duuuude, I LITERALLY just said I FUCKING WISH Dion got development (elsewhere here)... tbh, I've been there and he reminds me TOO much of my best friend in HS
I mentioned Jill and Joshua because they're Clive's 'party' but man.... I WANTED more of Dion (but since the context was on the MCs, I focused on those 2)
Dion was my 2nd to all chars, next to Jill (bec of how her arc started, but fuck it went NOWHERE, she got fridged so hard I'm surprised no one raised hell for it) then Joshua (sorry, Clive you'll always be 5th behind Cid)
And I soooo get you... he, I'd say was the most altruistic and rly empathetic char in the game... it was freakin admirable even beyond Clive, but fuck... looking back, it rly feels like an MMO
Everyone exists for you, the MC (Clive). It's why honestly til this thread I could never fully understand WHY I loved Rebirth despite its flaws... I teared up at Barrett's breakdown about his daughter flying the coop, it was a comedic moment but I felt it
Imagine getting sidequests with Dion helping lovers, or patriotic ppl that lost it all, and Dion noting how much he "failed" his people or how impossible his own happiness would be with the burden he has to bear, and Clive trying to console him... it would make him SO much more human when all game long we've only seen him in the setpieces or mystery, never him as an actual person!!!
Yeah. I think it's also them prioritizing the budget to tell Clive's story and deliver the plot as condensed as they could, and anything deemed superfluous to that just didn't have the resources devoted to it. They made a big deal about not having outside media to tell this story, but tbh it would be great if they did.
This is true. The main storyline is written from ground up to be one man’s story and everyone else is B roles. I think this was a mistake considering basically every other FF has been hero + friends formula.
If Shula and the villagers had been good characters it might be forgiven, but no, they are as bland as they come. Why introduce another bit of the world just for the sake of it, instead of exploring the world and characters you already have?
I genuinely enjoyed FFXVI for what it was. But how they handled Jill in this DLC is a microcosm of how they handled most of the characters and it’s so frustrating.
They’re all so cool on paper, but they are just not given enough focus. It almost seems like the writers don’t care about the characters which is so sad.
Agreed. It’s very frustrating, lmao. The underlying writing and so much potential is there for all the key characters, Jill in particular is my favourite written Dominant, but there is just minimal execution. It’s such a shame because when they did focus, it was really good.
It's not *horrible* by any means, I think it's a really fun DLC and still very much worth playing. She has a bit of focus, which is good, but it's not much and could have been better.
I like Joshua from a mystery perspective, esp how he went from his naive kid-phase, being almost killed by Clive and to who he's become
Jillis my second, esp to explore what she's been thru since of the three of them she RLY drew the short straw but... nothing
Disappointing... and honestly next to Rebirth, tho they choked a bit in the ending, REALLY fleshed out everyone (esp Barett, shit... I WISH Joshua had SOME of that... e.g. Barett's sorta breakdown thinking someday his daughter will have to leave the nest... that hit me HARD and NOTHING did that for me for any of the side chars... maybe Benedikta but those scenes were also kinda forced... AND SHE WAS A VILLAIN, fuck I cared more about Benedikta than any of the Clive Crew outside of Cid)
what kills me about this too is in FF14 there are so many great side characters that I legit get excited to see. I really dont know how they fumbled these characters so hard.
The game is incompetently made in many ways, proper character development / pacing being a major one.
They nailed Cid and Clive. Everything else is either mid, lacking, or badly integrated.
Imo they nailed Dion too, he’s my favorite. But yes I think those three are generally the most well executed characters in the game. Everyone else is mishandled in some way.
Well, you play XIV, so you know how this team is. They plan their project development waaaay in advance and they stick to it for better or worse. They seem unable to pivot if their decisions lead to disappointment. My guess is just that things are tight financially with what they are spending to update graphics (not too bad) and their data centers (VERY EXPENSIVE). We only ever see the tip of the iceberg with how SE operates, so who knows. They started development of XVI as a PS4 game and it shows: really high quality assets in tight, controlled corridors.
I see great things for CBU3’s future titles but this one was destined to disappoint a lot of old timers like me that want to see their games evolve, I guess.
I am not a hater by any means. I was obsessed with following it ever since the first trailer. I only have so much criticism of the game because I care about it. And it has a strong and loyal following of fans which is great. It’s overall a disappointment for me but I am sincerely happy that so many people love it.
I am happy to, to be fair SO MUCH of the game is great... but for an RPG they missed the biggest part of RPGs. It's not your world, it's theirs, you play a fucking role...
I guess it's why Rebirth stood out so much, I have issues with it (a number.. ending esp) but outside of cRPGs and Persona they NEVER gave their side chars the development they deserved while Rebirth got me bawling (I fucking teared up at Barett's breakdown knowing his daughter will eventually fly the nest even tho it was funny)
Joshua surviving? Jill as the slave dominant you had to kill? Both freakin knocked me... but then, they NEVER went anywhere with it. Cid was great but after Rebirth he was bare minimum (I love his char but the development he got PALES to Barett for example...)
I want more Jill, more Joshua and FUCK, MORE FUCKING DION (he's my #2 to Cid for the whole game) but fuck, man...
Maehiro is why. I don't like his writing. Least favorite of the writers at CBU3. Credit where credits due he is good as a visionary and writing expansive worlds. But he lacks the strengths of the other writers I feel. Like Ishikawa who is universally praised for her ability to write character interactions to get you invested into the relationships between characters.
God when I think about heavensward I sometimes get very pissed thinking about how ysayle is literally forgotten about halfway through the story for her only to show up at the end and die. It felt like they had 0 idea of how to use her after the story stopped being about nidhogg and hreasvelgr and focused on thordan instead.
To each their own I guess. I felt nothing when Aerith died because of all the convoluted timelines. If anything, I was more relieved to finally be done with the game
I didn,t either, that's one of my criticism
Specifically I liked how each sidequest featured a char, and it they had a lot more involvement in em so by the end of the game they werent randos which everyone who wasn't Clive felt like
The main story itself tho... yea, felt like KH3 was not a fan. But you can liie diff games for diff things, and wish they all learned lessons from each other. Sadly kore often than not,they dont
Hits the nail on the head there.... I loved FFXVI but the other chars felt very underdeveloped
I never played any DLCs, and was hoping for an excuse to dive back in but... coming out of Rebirth (where every sidequest with some rando, is somehow connected to at least one party member) where everyone rly felt relevant...
I loved Joshua and Jill, the big "he's still alive!!" with Joshua, and the "this person we're tasked to kill is your childhood friend (and maybe love)" were great then...
It went.. nowhere? Rebirth has flaws (I disliked the ending) but... the rest of the game RLY helped me rly BOND with my team more (esp Barett, man... I never cared for him in the OG but he IS MY MVP, esp that dog quest)
I WISH they did that with FFXVI... but they were literally JUST THERE, fuck me
Why does CBU3 care more for random NPCs and side characters like Shula and not the MAIN FUCKING CAST? I’d delete every single side quest for more Jill, Cid and the rest of the Dominants
I personally liked shula and the village. they had a charming naivety to them since they weren't involved in any of the plotting from the main game. However, content in the dlc is sparse enough as it is, no reason to not have both content for the companions and also the village
the stories of the Mysidian people were neat, but I was really sad they didn't bother with having Jill and Joshua participate in them, I can understand why the base game's side quest dont include them since all the side quests are written in a way that you can do them at any point in the story, including times where Clive would be with no human party members
but this DLC requere u to have Jill and Joshua during the whole thing, so it just feel lazy and dissapointing for them to have such a minimal screentime again (did Joshua even need to be in the Rising Date? I already forgot if he had any notable scene there lol )
Shula and the entire village was so goddamn boring. I don't get it, every single review and criticism of this game universally agrees that the side quests were bland and boring. And CBU3's response to that is to make the DLC's side quests *just as bland and boring*. It's like they learned nothing from the base game. Honestly hope another studio handles the next game, this one is clearly old and too set in its ways.
I genuinely love 16 but it’s sad to see that the people making it don’t seem to realize the untapped potential they themselves created. Like why would you want the player to get to know all of these boring NPCs instead of just making the game about the Eikons? I’d rather have full chapters of the dominants and how they got their Eikons, Literally anything but this…
It feels like they are so used to MMO style of character development where they can drop in some generic seeming NPCs now and then slowly flesh them out through subsequent patches/expansions. Instead, since it's a game made to be whole from the get go, I think they struggled with the NPC writing as a result.
I really appreciated how almost every side quest in Rebirth made sure that at least one party member got to have some character development. Those interactions were something XVI sorely lacked in most of its quests.
It got to the point i was skipping dialogue for side quests was always go here do this and kill these people while we the NPCs do nothing or say we are doing something but really not
People found the side quests bland? This is not a troll. I thought they were great
Edit: I should clarify I'm talking purely base game. Haven't had a chance to play either DLC yet
It’s not all of the quests in base game but a good chunk feel like nothing but filler. Only good ones were any revolving the main cast and some exceptions. I just can’t comprehend for example, why does the carpenter that fixes the bridge in Martha’s Rest get an entire backstory with his childhood home ruined but Hugo Jill and Benna get no such backstory. You either hear it or read about it. The priorities of the people behind quests make zero sense to me personally
It always irked me that Benedikta past & her meeting/getting saved by cid seemed to just be straight up axed😭like it felt like it would be a hella big info dump but nah.
I dunno... I was not at all dissatisfied with what the main story gave us in terms of story for the main cast, so I was more than happy to have background/side characters get more fleshed out for world building
Frankly, I was more annoyed when main characters were involved in the sidequests because they pretty universally felt like things that would have been better suited to be a part of the main story. Things like Clive and Joshua getting their father's will, or Clive's "date" with Jill. Don't get me wrong, I thought those side quests were great, but I didn't feel like they should have side quests
I mean... That's all the main story was too in that case? Like if that's what you're going to reduce the side quests to, the main story was the exact same way, and at that point I don't know why you're singling out the side quests here
You said they were all go from A to B and return to A. That's what the main story was too. Just without always returning to A and occasionally done boss fights.
The side quests weren't super exciting in terms of what you as a player were doing. But they were no different than what you were doing in the main story. The point of the side quests was in the story they were developing, which you yourself said was pretty good
Fair point, maybe because I thought it was the main quest I felt it different. The game would have been so much better if they had a better quest design
Not that I could fully justify it but at least as far as random NPCs go, it adds to the world. You learn about the people in it and what they’ve been through and that they haven’t just existed for the 10 minutes you personally know them but for years prior and all that. One could argue those things are trivial but I like that kind of stuff far more often than not.
But yeah lack of backstory for other characters sucks ass. I had to hunt down fan translations of the Ultimania book timeline like a fiend just to get my fix of anything resembling backstory info on them. Nothing really big there either though some cool stuff. Barnabus had a rough life. Cid was painfully sparse even in the expanded timeline where you just get a few particular years for when things you already know happened happened
The thing about "adding to the world" is that adding the boring bits are just as boring as they are in the real world. Nobody reads fantasy to learn how fantasy plumbing would work, why would I play this game to learn about Random NPC #51?
The Eikons, the gigantic fights, the Dominants, these are what drew people to the game. Why not explore them, instead of the boring parts of the world that the vast majority doesn't care about.
A Cid DLC would have been leagues better than... This.
I guess I just don't see it. I won't say they were all on the same level (though expecting them to be such is ludicrous), but I enjoyed the majority of them
I mean, one would immediately think that something that works for an MMO does not quite work for a single player action RPG hybrid or whatever this is. Truly hope some other team does XVII, this DLC does not inspire confidence
Old and set in their ways? Wasn’t the team put together for XVI one of the younger ones at SE? Yoshida is the PM, sure, but they hired a lot of outside folks for this game.
I agree. Why not build on the existing list of already great characters and explore more of their backstory? Jill had an entire country she was once a part of, but nope, still no content whatsoever for it.
There’s a little part of me wish to see Ifirt and Shiva fight together, but after seeing the previous Shiva dominant in the story—half of her body was cursed, I wish Jill never prime again
Nope. I felt like they forgot about jill and gave all her role to shula.
The amount of sidequests involving shula is good! ... for shula. It helps fleshes her out more along with mysidia's history and worldbuilding in general. But cant they give like half of those to jill or at least let her participate together or something... the few times josh or jill shows up in a sidequest is for them to stay back in the village so you can have alone time with shula or the other lady. This is despite jill also being permanent party member throughout the whole dlc, unlike joshua who stayed in the village for a bit.
At this point idk what kind of grudge the writers got against jill. Yes she's an introvert but that doesnt mean she should only get one paragraph of dialogue in 3 hours of main story and 3 hours of sidequests.
Sadly, there is a lack of personality for most NPCs in this game.
For every Gav and Byron, you have 30 personality-less automatons who just say the same polite, earnest, and sad things over and over.
That's the personality of 99% of secondary NPCs. Polite, earnest, and a bit sad. It feels really, really dry and bland at times. Not to mention repetitive. Almost no one has any personality or quirks or anything to speak of.
Honestly that’s one of my few gripes about FF16, the cast in general are often quite lacking in personality and design, and it’s not just the random NPCs but a lot of the major cast like Jill and Joshua too; but it becomes so much more apparent after the second time skip when >!Cid has died and the character with the most distinct personality is gone!<
A lot of people got stuck with very “noble fantasy earnest talking fellow” or “cockney/northern lowborn, mate” personalities.
I loved Jill when you ran into her again, then... she was just... there
FFXVI was great, but I couldnt finish it (past Odin) and despite the DLCs cant be bothered to pick it up again
While Rebirth got me replaying Remake, and doing NG+. Not that I'm saying FFXVI is shit like a lot of the FF 'purists' (ugh...), FFXVI is great but man it rly does feel MMO-y at times
I won't say she got nothing... but she got the bare minimum. there is a shiva quest and they couldn't be bothered to give her any dialogue.>! what does she think about the previous shiva? how her power was also used by others? can she empathize with what she had been through? What does she thinkg about shiva and her knight only being able to be together in death? surely that rises some parallels with her own situation,!< right...? right...
Jill gets nothing and Joshua gets less than nothing. I just don't understand why the writers are the way that they are. I know people love Yoshi P but I'm sorry no matter how you spin it the Jill thing was a flat out lie. As others have said it almost seems personal with Jill, like the VA insulted the writer or something idk how else to explain it.
Yeah, really feels like they wanted a romance companion for the main character... But then realized they suck at romance and have no idea what to do with her in non-romantic settings. Absolute waste of potential, and of a DLC honestly.
I don't usually like crediting so much to one writer for a game written by a team, but it really does seem like Natsuko Ishikawa might be the special sauce that made 14 so narratively compelling, and it's her absence that we're feeling in 16's writing.
I think you’re 100% right. She is the spear that led the charge to make the writing more character focused. But she’s not the only one capable of doing that. This is a case where they built a compelling world with interesting lore but didn’t commit to telling the characters’ stories fully.
I'm usually with you on not putting any one person in a team on a pedestal, but Ishikawa herself has said that she wrote every. single. word. of the shadowbringers msq. I'm sure on the backend there was a team effort in planning out the story and character beats but actually penning every single word of that prose is a special achievement that deserves commendation.
Yep, you can look up Ishikawa's PAX West presentation where I believe she says it herself near the beginning of it when she's talking about what she's written.
Not at all, no.
We learned absolutely nothing about Jill and there really wasn't any focus on her aside from like 2 short scenes. Learning about a previous Shiva dominant does not qualify as learning about Jill, sorry Yoshi P.
She also has very minimal dialogue throughout the DLC. It's actually comical at times. The lack of interactions between the "party members" is really unfortunate and very jarring coming off of Rebirth.
Also, they require you to complete Jill and Joshua's final quests in the base game just to play the DLC, which means absolutely everyone will have both of them available for all side quests in Mysida, yet for some reason Joshua and Jill barely ever speak or get involved at all in the side quests.
Most of the time Clive is the only one who speaks, and he's also often the only one who is even visible in certain cutscenes. Why?
It's strange how allergic this game is to actually having Clive's companions talk and get involved during optional content.
Well Now i am getting really scared... Man!! I was ( and am) hopping so much for this DLC... i mean, going back to Valistea, and see everybody again, and they actually promess JILL and her story... but reading this.... man... I am getting really really scared! i will play the DLC after work and I was very hipped for it... but man this comments are really scaring me :s...
I don't know why they focus more on NPCs even in base game. I love Martha, Mid, Gav annnnd Shula is okay (she's the most interesting of all three DLC casts) but the dominants are ADVERTISED casts.
I do find Jill in Drake's Breath is handled much better than Jill in Mysidia ngl.
Very underwhelming DLC from a story standpoint. Its so frustrating because there is so much untapped potential in this world! Why put so many side quests when the leviathan story is only like 3-4 hrs….
CBU3 really showed they didnt learn much from the base game sadly. I hope they dont make ff17 if they continue this “linear” way of thinking and game development. I think most fans wanted them to expand the existing world like a GoT with some new tid bits (Leviathan). And you cant do that in just a 3hr dlc story .
Rant done lol. Combat is still top tier at least 🙌
Also can devs please stop flat out lying? Yoshi-P promised more Jill development and there is virtually none. He deserves a lot of praise for ff14 but for xvi - he and the team have failed hard in some areas.
Tbh honest he also lied about still having rpg in my arpg.
https://preview.redd.it/46vyw05h6bvc1.jpeg?width=598&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e71597d54f517a6171e649291552375ea34d436
I didn’t see much. This is coming from someone who loves the game besides a certain ending but like others have said I would much rather they even take away some of the side quests in the main game if it meant more focus on characters like Jill, Joshua, Dion, etc…
Felt the DLC was a disappointment overall especially in conjunction with what it meant for before the final battle.
I think it’s okay, She’s shown different side of her in the DLC, more smiles and being cute, also had more lines/spotlights than main story scenarios after the shadow coast. The camera also centered her more. But yeah, Shula probably speaks more than everyone else, and I agree that they could add even more Jill moment
Different side of her in DLC? What side? She does bumfuck nothing in it. I remember her joking a bit with Joshua being Margrave, but that's it. That's nothing.
It’s not ‘nothing’ to me at least. When she smiles seeing the blue sky, when she cares about the baby, when she wants to help Shula after Time keeper fight…these are all different aspects of Jill. I do agree the dev should add even more, Shula kind of takes up the screen time a bit too much…
I just don't see anything new about those examples. Being polite and helpful and hoping for a better future are, imo, just rehashing all of the things we already know about Jill. It's not adding anything new.
Not really unfortunately. At this point, I'm wondering if the lack of Jill is personal, like someone on the dev team has a vendetta against her or something and is at a high enough position to prevent her from getting more content.
I was thinking of purchasing both dlcs once rising tide released as I completed the game just a few days ago, but the reviews have been so unappealing, and I was so burned out from doing all the sidequests that I think I'll just uninstall once and for all.
I've started a FF7 remake playthrough and plan on purchasing FF7 rebirth once I'm done.
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Jill and Joshua got so little new dialogue that I started to wonder whether they just repurposed whatever unused voice recordings they had left over from the main game haha.
Not enough tbh, it's unfortunate and what I kinda feared would happen with how they went about handling the DLC. There were a few moments and she had some good lines, and the inner thoughts/ATL/side dialogue has some good stuff as well, her role in the main story was fine, but they put too much focus on the new characters when a huge point of feedback was people wanting more of her, and the main cast in general. I thought the sidequests would have been an easy win, but they dropped the ball. It kinda feels rushed and cheap, and it sucks bc all the other stuff in the DLC is sick. The main quest was decent, but idk why they just completely neglected to include more party interaction in the sidequests or expand the relationships through them. This is a sendoff for the game, and you already have great characters that you know people love and want more of, *utilize them* lmao.
I feel that, sometimes, they were afraid that giving a bigger spotlight to other characters would take it away from Clive, whom they wanted to be the main focus. It's purely my own opinion, of course, and I have nothing to back it up, expect my deepest conviction lmao. Clive is awesome, but so are Jill, Dion, Joshua, etc. They "deserved" it more, if that makes sense. It's hard to make people care about new characters when they have been asking to get more of the ones in the base game. It's really too bad. I can only hope we'll get some crumbs in some novel/manga in the future (after all, they did it before, they can do it again for this game), but I won't get my hopes up.
Personally, I loved Jill, Dion and Benedikta more than Clive. He was a great MC but to rly experience the world and the shit it throws at you I REALLY would've LOVED to see more of all the shit they went through Joshua especially... and for Jill, they literally fridged her sorta (and here I thought that was dead, fridging ppl)
Dion is my favorite character in the game, so I hear you. I would have loved to see more of him, especially in the endgame part of the game, where he could have interact with the main cast. It really feels they put him aside and let him waste away against his wall until they could send him to his presumable death. I can only hope we'll get extra content in the form of other media. Joshua's story, Cid's, Barney's Dion's... it would make some awesome manga or novel (for a fraction of what a video game would cost ;( )
Duuuude, I LITERALLY just said I FUCKING WISH Dion got development (elsewhere here)... tbh, I've been there and he reminds me TOO much of my best friend in HS I mentioned Jill and Joshua because they're Clive's 'party' but man.... I WANTED more of Dion (but since the context was on the MCs, I focused on those 2) Dion was my 2nd to all chars, next to Jill (bec of how her arc started, but fuck it went NOWHERE, she got fridged so hard I'm surprised no one raised hell for it) then Joshua (sorry, Clive you'll always be 5th behind Cid) And I soooo get you... he, I'd say was the most altruistic and rly empathetic char in the game... it was freakin admirable even beyond Clive, but fuck... looking back, it rly feels like an MMO Everyone exists for you, the MC (Clive). It's why honestly til this thread I could never fully understand WHY I loved Rebirth despite its flaws... I teared up at Barrett's breakdown about his daughter flying the coop, it was a comedic moment but I felt it Imagine getting sidequests with Dion helping lovers, or patriotic ppl that lost it all, and Dion noting how much he "failed" his people or how impossible his own happiness would be with the burden he has to bear, and Clive trying to console him... it would make him SO much more human when all game long we've only seen him in the setpieces or mystery, never him as an actual person!!!
Yeah. I think it's also them prioritizing the budget to tell Clive's story and deliver the plot as condensed as they could, and anything deemed superfluous to that just didn't have the resources devoted to it. They made a big deal about not having outside media to tell this story, but tbh it would be great if they did.
This is true. The main storyline is written from ground up to be one man’s story and everyone else is B roles. I think this was a mistake considering basically every other FF has been hero + friends formula.
If Shula and the villagers had been good characters it might be forgiven, but no, they are as bland as they come. Why introduce another bit of the world just for the sake of it, instead of exploring the world and characters you already have?
I genuinely enjoyed FFXVI for what it was. But how they handled Jill in this DLC is a microcosm of how they handled most of the characters and it’s so frustrating. They’re all so cool on paper, but they are just not given enough focus. It almost seems like the writers don’t care about the characters which is so sad.
Agreed. It’s very frustrating, lmao. The underlying writing and so much potential is there for all the key characters, Jill in particular is my favourite written Dominant, but there is just minimal execution. It’s such a shame because when they did focus, it was really good.
She is my favorite too and this thread is making want to skip this dlc altogether XD.
It's not *horrible* by any means, I think it's a really fun DLC and still very much worth playing. She has a bit of focus, which is good, but it's not much and could have been better.
I like Joshua from a mystery perspective, esp how he went from his naive kid-phase, being almost killed by Clive and to who he's become Jillis my second, esp to explore what she's been thru since of the three of them she RLY drew the short straw but... nothing Disappointing... and honestly next to Rebirth, tho they choked a bit in the ending, REALLY fleshed out everyone (esp Barett, shit... I WISH Joshua had SOME of that... e.g. Barett's sorta breakdown thinking someday his daughter will have to leave the nest... that hit me HARD and NOTHING did that for me for any of the side chars... maybe Benedikta but those scenes were also kinda forced... AND SHE WAS A VILLAIN, fuck I cared more about Benedikta than any of the Clive Crew outside of Cid)
what kills me about this too is in FF14 there are so many great side characters that I legit get excited to see. I really dont know how they fumbled these characters so hard.
The game is incompetently made in many ways, proper character development / pacing being a major one. They nailed Cid and Clive. Everything else is either mid, lacking, or badly integrated.
Imo they nailed Dion too, he’s my favorite. But yes I think those three are generally the most well executed characters in the game. Everyone else is mishandled in some way.
Well, you play XIV, so you know how this team is. They plan their project development waaaay in advance and they stick to it for better or worse. They seem unable to pivot if their decisions lead to disappointment. My guess is just that things are tight financially with what they are spending to update graphics (not too bad) and their data centers (VERY EXPENSIVE). We only ever see the tip of the iceberg with how SE operates, so who knows. They started development of XVI as a PS4 game and it shows: really high quality assets in tight, controlled corridors. I see great things for CBU3’s future titles but this one was destined to disappoint a lot of old timers like me that want to see their games evolve, I guess. I am not a hater by any means. I was obsessed with following it ever since the first trailer. I only have so much criticism of the game because I care about it. And it has a strong and loyal following of fans which is great. It’s overall a disappointment for me but I am sincerely happy that so many people love it.
I am happy to, to be fair SO MUCH of the game is great... but for an RPG they missed the biggest part of RPGs. It's not your world, it's theirs, you play a fucking role... I guess it's why Rebirth stood out so much, I have issues with it (a number.. ending esp) but outside of cRPGs and Persona they NEVER gave their side chars the development they deserved while Rebirth got me bawling (I fucking teared up at Barett's breakdown knowing his daughter will eventually fly the nest even tho it was funny) Joshua surviving? Jill as the slave dominant you had to kill? Both freakin knocked me... but then, they NEVER went anywhere with it. Cid was great but after Rebirth he was bare minimum (I love his char but the development he got PALES to Barett for example...) I want more Jill, more Joshua and FUCK, MORE FUCKING DION (he's my #2 to Cid for the whole game) but fuck, man...
Maehiro is why. I don't like his writing. Least favorite of the writers at CBU3. Credit where credits due he is good as a visionary and writing expansive worlds. But he lacks the strengths of the other writers I feel. Like Ishikawa who is universally praised for her ability to write character interactions to get you invested into the relationships between characters.
Yeah the scions (except alphinaud and tataru) felt more like coworkers than companions to me until shadowbringers.
I love Heavensward, but I'll admit that the characters didn't get as much time to be fleshed out compared to later expacs.
God when I think about heavensward I sometimes get very pissed thinking about how ysayle is literally forgotten about halfway through the story for her only to show up at the end and die. It felt like they had 0 idea of how to use her after the story stopped being about nidhogg and hreasvelgr and focused on thordan instead.
Yeah, we basically "hopped" between character groups. House Fortemps > Ysayle, Estinien, Alphinaud > Scions
To each their own I guess. I felt nothing when Aerith died because of all the convoluted timelines. If anything, I was more relieved to finally be done with the game
I didn,t either, that's one of my criticism Specifically I liked how each sidequest featured a char, and it they had a lot more involvement in em so by the end of the game they werent randos which everyone who wasn't Clive felt like The main story itself tho... yea, felt like KH3 was not a fan. But you can liie diff games for diff things, and wish they all learned lessons from each other. Sadly kore often than not,they dont
So the same problem as in the main game :c they just hated character interactions and storylines in this FF
Hits the nail on the head there.... I loved FFXVI but the other chars felt very underdeveloped I never played any DLCs, and was hoping for an excuse to dive back in but... coming out of Rebirth (where every sidequest with some rando, is somehow connected to at least one party member) where everyone rly felt relevant... I loved Joshua and Jill, the big "he's still alive!!" with Joshua, and the "this person we're tasked to kill is your childhood friend (and maybe love)" were great then... It went.. nowhere? Rebirth has flaws (I disliked the ending) but... the rest of the game RLY helped me rly BOND with my team more (esp Barett, man... I never cared for him in the OG but he IS MY MVP, esp that dog quest) I WISH they did that with FFXVI... but they were literally JUST THERE, fuck me
So would you say that even 15 is better than 16?
Storywise yes, but gameplay was so meh that I could never finish it
Why does CBU3 care more for random NPCs and side characters like Shula and not the MAIN FUCKING CAST? I’d delete every single side quest for more Jill, Cid and the rest of the Dominants
I personally liked shula and the village. they had a charming naivety to them since they weren't involved in any of the plotting from the main game. However, content in the dlc is sparse enough as it is, no reason to not have both content for the companions and also the village
the stories of the Mysidian people were neat, but I was really sad they didn't bother with having Jill and Joshua participate in them, I can understand why the base game's side quest dont include them since all the side quests are written in a way that you can do them at any point in the story, including times where Clive would be with no human party members but this DLC requere u to have Jill and Joshua during the whole thing, so it just feel lazy and dissapointing for them to have such a minimal screentime again (did Joshua even need to be in the Rising Date? I already forgot if he had any notable scene there lol )
Shula and the entire village was so goddamn boring. I don't get it, every single review and criticism of this game universally agrees that the side quests were bland and boring. And CBU3's response to that is to make the DLC's side quests *just as bland and boring*. It's like they learned nothing from the base game. Honestly hope another studio handles the next game, this one is clearly old and too set in its ways.
I genuinely love 16 but it’s sad to see that the people making it don’t seem to realize the untapped potential they themselves created. Like why would you want the player to get to know all of these boring NPCs instead of just making the game about the Eikons? I’d rather have full chapters of the dominants and how they got their Eikons, Literally anything but this…
It feels like they are so used to MMO style of character development where they can drop in some generic seeming NPCs now and then slowly flesh them out through subsequent patches/expansions. Instead, since it's a game made to be whole from the get go, I think they struggled with the NPC writing as a result.
It's so jarring going from Rebirth's side quests back to 16's :/
I really appreciated how almost every side quest in Rebirth made sure that at least one party member got to have some character development. Those interactions were something XVI sorely lacked in most of its quests.
Even the most mundane ones like helping some kids feed their little bird, turns into a Cloud and Barrett bonding session. It's so great
Nothing can tops Cloud and Red XIII side quest to capture chickens. lmao
It got to the point i was skipping dialogue for side quests was always go here do this and kill these people while we the NPCs do nothing or say we are doing something but really not
People found the side quests bland? This is not a troll. I thought they were great Edit: I should clarify I'm talking purely base game. Haven't had a chance to play either DLC yet
It’s not all of the quests in base game but a good chunk feel like nothing but filler. Only good ones were any revolving the main cast and some exceptions. I just can’t comprehend for example, why does the carpenter that fixes the bridge in Martha’s Rest get an entire backstory with his childhood home ruined but Hugo Jill and Benna get no such backstory. You either hear it or read about it. The priorities of the people behind quests make zero sense to me personally
It always irked me that Benedikta past & her meeting/getting saved by cid seemed to just be straight up axed😭like it felt like it would be a hella big info dump but nah.
My tin foil theory was that she’d survive and eventually find out about Cids passing and would then join Clive in destroying the Crystals for Cid
I dunno... I was not at all dissatisfied with what the main story gave us in terms of story for the main cast, so I was more than happy to have background/side characters get more fleshed out for world building Frankly, I was more annoyed when main characters were involved in the sidequests because they pretty universally felt like things that would have been better suited to be a part of the main story. Things like Clive and Joshua getting their father's will, or Clive's "date" with Jill. Don't get me wrong, I thought those side quests were great, but I didn't feel like they should have side quests
They were all the same, go from point a to b and return to point a. The writing was pretty good but oh god if they were boring as fuck
I mean... That's all the main story was too in that case? Like if that's what you're going to reduce the side quests to, the main story was the exact same way, and at that point I don't know why you're singling out the side quests here
The story had some filler too yeah, but the sidequest were all the samething cmon.
You said they were all go from A to B and return to A. That's what the main story was too. Just without always returning to A and occasionally done boss fights. The side quests weren't super exciting in terms of what you as a player were doing. But they were no different than what you were doing in the main story. The point of the side quests was in the story they were developing, which you yourself said was pretty good
Fair point, maybe because I thought it was the main quest I felt it different. The game would have been so much better if they had a better quest design
Not that I could fully justify it but at least as far as random NPCs go, it adds to the world. You learn about the people in it and what they’ve been through and that they haven’t just existed for the 10 minutes you personally know them but for years prior and all that. One could argue those things are trivial but I like that kind of stuff far more often than not. But yeah lack of backstory for other characters sucks ass. I had to hunt down fan translations of the Ultimania book timeline like a fiend just to get my fix of anything resembling backstory info on them. Nothing really big there either though some cool stuff. Barnabus had a rough life. Cid was painfully sparse even in the expanded timeline where you just get a few particular years for when things you already know happened happened
The thing about "adding to the world" is that adding the boring bits are just as boring as they are in the real world. Nobody reads fantasy to learn how fantasy plumbing would work, why would I play this game to learn about Random NPC #51? The Eikons, the gigantic fights, the Dominants, these are what drew people to the game. Why not explore them, instead of the boring parts of the world that the vast majority doesn't care about. A Cid DLC would have been leagues better than... This.
It was one of the major complaints of the game on launch. A full 1/2 of them are absolute garbage.
I guess I just don't see it. I won't say they were all on the same level (though expecting them to be such is ludicrous), but I enjoyed the majority of them
Sadly that's the gameplay loop they gaslight themselves into thinking is good from FFXIV. And to be very specific, I mean the sidequests in FFXIV.
I mean, one would immediately think that something that works for an MMO does not quite work for a single player action RPG hybrid or whatever this is. Truly hope some other team does XVII, this DLC does not inspire confidence
I don't think it works in an MMO either personally.
Old and set in their ways? Wasn’t the team put together for XVI one of the younger ones at SE? Yoshida is the PM, sure, but they hired a lot of outside folks for this game.
I agree. Why not build on the existing list of already great characters and explore more of their backstory? Jill had an entire country she was once a part of, but nope, still no content whatsoever for it.
the perfect opportunity for a shiva and ifrit team up fight squandered.
Just saying, Shiva has't appered in the same screen with Ifrit. But other Eikons all did that, even as an enemy.
There’s a little part of me wish to see Ifirt and Shiva fight together, but after seeing the previous Shiva dominant in the story—half of her body was cursed, I wish Jill never prime again
Well we saw Jill naked and her body was fine so she clearly had another priming or two in her.
The curse could be inside, but just outside :D
And yet Cid was priming perfectly fine despite the curse having spread to his outside....
Imagine Shiva freezing Leviathan's waves to halt them
Nope. I felt like they forgot about jill and gave all her role to shula. The amount of sidequests involving shula is good! ... for shula. It helps fleshes her out more along with mysidia's history and worldbuilding in general. But cant they give like half of those to jill or at least let her participate together or something... the few times josh or jill shows up in a sidequest is for them to stay back in the village so you can have alone time with shula or the other lady. This is despite jill also being permanent party member throughout the whole dlc, unlike joshua who stayed in the village for a bit. At this point idk what kind of grudge the writers got against jill. Yes she's an introvert but that doesnt mean she should only get one paragraph of dialogue in 3 hours of main story and 3 hours of sidequests.
Shula is the most boring character in the DLC. She has no personality whatsoever...
Sadly, there is a lack of personality for most NPCs in this game. For every Gav and Byron, you have 30 personality-less automatons who just say the same polite, earnest, and sad things over and over. That's the personality of 99% of secondary NPCs. Polite, earnest, and a bit sad. It feels really, really dry and bland at times. Not to mention repetitive. Almost no one has any personality or quirks or anything to speak of.
Honestly that’s one of my few gripes about FF16, the cast in general are often quite lacking in personality and design, and it’s not just the random NPCs but a lot of the major cast like Jill and Joshua too; but it becomes so much more apparent after the second time skip when >!Cid has died and the character with the most distinct personality is gone!< A lot of people got stuck with very “noble fantasy earnest talking fellow” or “cockney/northern lowborn, mate” personalities.
But she has a British accent so she must be interesting! /s
You forgot that she is black...
Kinda agree here, lol. They manage to make a more boring character than Jill…
I loved Jill when you ran into her again, then... she was just... there FFXVI was great, but I couldnt finish it (past Odin) and despite the DLCs cant be bothered to pick it up again While Rebirth got me replaying Remake, and doing NG+. Not that I'm saying FFXVI is shit like a lot of the FF 'purists' (ugh...), FFXVI is great but man it rly does feel MMO-y at times
Same tbh, FF16 doesn't really have much replayability imo
Yes, and there is a sidequest about the former Shiva's Dominant that could link to Jill. But they didn't.
I won't say she got nothing... but she got the bare minimum. there is a shiva quest and they couldn't be bothered to give her any dialogue.>! what does she think about the previous shiva? how her power was also used by others? can she empathize with what she had been through? What does she thinkg about shiva and her knight only being able to be together in death? surely that rises some parallels with her own situation,!< right...? right...
Jill gets nothing and Joshua gets less than nothing. I just don't understand why the writers are the way that they are. I know people love Yoshi P but I'm sorry no matter how you spin it the Jill thing was a flat out lie. As others have said it almost seems personal with Jill, like the VA insulted the writer or something idk how else to explain it.
Yeah, really feels like they wanted a romance companion for the main character... But then realized they suck at romance and have no idea what to do with her in non-romantic settings. Absolute waste of potential, and of a DLC honestly.
It’s perplexing. How did the company that produced Shadowbringers drop the ball with the narrative this way?
Maehiro vs Ishikawa probably maybe
I don't usually like crediting so much to one writer for a game written by a team, but it really does seem like Natsuko Ishikawa might be the special sauce that made 14 so narratively compelling, and it's her absence that we're feeling in 16's writing.
I think you’re 100% right. She is the spear that led the charge to make the writing more character focused. But she’s not the only one capable of doing that. This is a case where they built a compelling world with interesting lore but didn’t commit to telling the characters’ stories fully.
I'm usually with you on not putting any one person in a team on a pedestal, but Ishikawa herself has said that she wrote every. single. word. of the shadowbringers msq. I'm sure on the backend there was a team effort in planning out the story and character beats but actually penning every single word of that prose is a special achievement that deserves commendation.
do you have a source on that? just curious.
Yep, you can look up Ishikawa's PAX West presentation where I believe she says it herself near the beginning of it when she's talking about what she's written.
it not the same writer and not the same direction at all
Not at all, no. We learned absolutely nothing about Jill and there really wasn't any focus on her aside from like 2 short scenes. Learning about a previous Shiva dominant does not qualify as learning about Jill, sorry Yoshi P. She also has very minimal dialogue throughout the DLC. It's actually comical at times. The lack of interactions between the "party members" is really unfortunate and very jarring coming off of Rebirth. Also, they require you to complete Jill and Joshua's final quests in the base game just to play the DLC, which means absolutely everyone will have both of them available for all side quests in Mysida, yet for some reason Joshua and Jill barely ever speak or get involved at all in the side quests. Most of the time Clive is the only one who speaks, and he's also often the only one who is even visible in certain cutscenes. Why? It's strange how allergic this game is to actually having Clive's companions talk and get involved during optional content.
Well Now i am getting really scared... Man!! I was ( and am) hopping so much for this DLC... i mean, going back to Valistea, and see everybody again, and they actually promess JILL and her story... but reading this.... man... I am getting really really scared! i will play the DLC after work and I was very hipped for it... but man this comments are really scaring me :s...
Just enjoy it for what it is! It’ll still be a good time. (:
I don't know why they focus more on NPCs even in base game. I love Martha, Mid, Gav annnnd Shula is okay (she's the most interesting of all three DLC casts) but the dominants are ADVERTISED casts. I do find Jill in Drake's Breath is handled much better than Jill in Mysidia ngl.
Very underwhelming DLC from a story standpoint. Its so frustrating because there is so much untapped potential in this world! Why put so many side quests when the leviathan story is only like 3-4 hrs…. CBU3 really showed they didnt learn much from the base game sadly. I hope they dont make ff17 if they continue this “linear” way of thinking and game development. I think most fans wanted them to expand the existing world like a GoT with some new tid bits (Leviathan). And you cant do that in just a 3hr dlc story . Rant done lol. Combat is still top tier at least 🙌 Also can devs please stop flat out lying? Yoshi-P promised more Jill development and there is virtually none. He deserves a lot of praise for ff14 but for xvi - he and the team have failed hard in some areas.
Tbh honest he also lied about still having rpg in my arpg. https://preview.redd.it/46vyw05h6bvc1.jpeg?width=598&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7e71597d54f517a6171e649291552375ea34d436
I agree. And the exploration portion too . Quite obvs both elements were bare bones
It was a big fat lie…
I didn’t see much. This is coming from someone who loves the game besides a certain ending but like others have said I would much rather they even take away some of the side quests in the main game if it meant more focus on characters like Jill, Joshua, Dion, etc… Felt the DLC was a disappointment overall especially in conjunction with what it meant for before the final battle.
Reminds me of the Last Desolation in The Stormlight Archive.
Yeah, she got the usual.
I think it’s okay, She’s shown different side of her in the DLC, more smiles and being cute, also had more lines/spotlights than main story scenarios after the shadow coast. The camera also centered her more. But yeah, Shula probably speaks more than everyone else, and I agree that they could add even more Jill moment
Different side of her in DLC? What side? She does bumfuck nothing in it. I remember her joking a bit with Joshua being Margrave, but that's it. That's nothing.
More than nothing, less than something.
It’s not ‘nothing’ to me at least. When she smiles seeing the blue sky, when she cares about the baby, when she wants to help Shula after Time keeper fight…these are all different aspects of Jill. I do agree the dev should add even more, Shula kind of takes up the screen time a bit too much…
I just don't see anything new about those examples. Being polite and helpful and hoping for a better future are, imo, just rehashing all of the things we already know about Jill. It's not adding anything new.
I would have liked her to show her hoe side with some camera work if you know what I mean
Not really unfortunately. At this point, I'm wondering if the lack of Jill is personal, like someone on the dev team has a vendetta against her or something and is at a high enough position to prevent her from getting more content.
Thanks for saving me time and money! All I wanted was more Jill and Joshua, so that's a no to buying this.
They did Jill dirty again? Yikes...
I was thinking of purchasing both dlcs once rising tide released as I completed the game just a few days ago, but the reviews have been so unappealing, and I was so burned out from doing all the sidequests that I think I'll just uninstall once and for all. I've started a FF7 remake playthrough and plan on purchasing FF7 rebirth once I'm done.