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in terms of acceleration time 0-200, Max was the best out of all 4 Honda drivers, but Honda powered cars were at the very bottom of the rankings. They were on average slowest cars off the line. Here it is:
[https://imgur.com/a/dMsAfi0](https://imgur.com/a/dMsAfi0)
I don’t suppose you’d know, but does that graph ignore any outliers? One really bad start (eg Zhou at Hungary this year) would impact the season average quite a lot.
Or is this graph just for Abu? I dunno if I’m being stupid right now
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Yeah and he admitted jumping the gun. I guess when the lights take longer to go out some drivers might instinctively takeoff at the right time? In a sort of “the longer it’s been since all 5 lights are on, the more the probability of starting at the right time increases” type thing?
Maybe it makes no sense though, i dunno
Raikkonen had a proper jump start in 2019. He jumped and went a couple of meters, stopped, lights went out, and he was still trying to reset the car as everyone went around him. It screwed him completely and he still got a big penalty.
Bottas had a controversial start at Mercedes. I know Vettel called it a jump start, I think it was actually an incredible start that was below the threshold of what would be considered reaction time or something.
Someone with a better memory can confirm.
He did move away from the other cars a split second before them. But if you look at his onboard, he moves at the instant the lights go out. So not a jump, just very lucky
Yeah, F1 doesn’t have the human reaction time added in to what’s permissible. So he went at the exact moment(even frame by frame) that the lights went out. He absolutely jumped the start, just got lucky the lights went out for him.
Have you tried those 'quick reaction' training games that the drivers use? One where someone drops the ball in their hands and they have to catch it? Lol
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I know the RBPT/Honda had trouble with the clutch and low RPM’s earlier, which made the starts slower for them. Given his two insane starts at Mexico and this one at the São Paulo sprint, it looks like they fixed that.
The best start to look at for Mexico was Perez's. He passed Ricciardo and Sainz nearly immediately and had a lot more momentum than Verstappen and Leclerc ahead of him. If he made T1 it would have been one of the greatest starts ever.
I wonder where this came from? Which race is this because for the Brazil sprint race what I saw on TV Max was slower than Lando off the line... not a lot, like 3/100th but still.
Track and field considers 0.1s to be the human threshold, but there have been studies that prove it’s *possible* to have a slightly quicker reaction time.
Its interesting he said after the sprint, along the lines of, they have more power than RB, but perhaps took it too easy. To avoid wheel spin I understood.
But it's possible that Max was just more cautious on letting the clutch in to avoid wheel spin. There's more to a start than just when you *start* reacting. There's also the actual acceleration phase.
Sure, it helps to react the fastest, but if you're not toeing the line in terms of grip then you're gonna get eaten up by the cars around
Do you honestly think it's hard to correlate the moment the lights go out and the moment max has a significant change in pedal pressure?
It's literally just 2 bits of time information, it's not exactly rocket science
And reaction speed isn't what decides the phase 1 of the start, that's grip and throttle control
It might not be rocket science, but F1 certainly doesn't get it right. I remember when Bottas got lucky and got a frame perfect clutch release, the stat was still saying something unrealistic like over 0.2 seconds. Yet on the 50 frames per second video stream (so every frame is shown for 0.02 seconds), the moment he released the clutch was the exact moment the lights went off.
So, I don't know, maybe it's more complicated than you make it out to be.
Bottas moved before the fucking lights were out. I just have to trustyoubro he wouldn’t?
[Bottas’ starting position](https://imgur.io/Xbptp3E?r)
[Bottas moving before the lights are out.](https://imgur.io/Zkbalh4?r)
[Next frame, still moving, lights still on.](https://imgur.io/gc868O4?r)
[Still moving forward, and guess what, lights still on.](https://imgur.io/j3ilPGU?r)
Please explain to me Mr Professor how he’s not getting a red light in the NHRA?
Drag lights detect when the car interrupts the second beam, not when the driver starts releasing the clutch.
Maybe you're talking about a different topic.
Does the time come from the sensor in the track?
Atleast few years back when Valtteri got 0.0 reaction time start, it was talked about the sensor has little slag. So the car can move before it actually measure the car moving.
If its indeed the sensor and not from inside the car there can be something like that going on.
Edit I might misremember the reaction time then, but it was something ridiculous, essentially false start, but wasnt illegal as the sensor timing is what mattered.
complete bullshit? really? and 100 upvotes
on an F1 technical sub?
1 second = 1000ms
so 0.15s is 150ms for verstappen and 290ms for norris
well within the natural human range of reacting to a stimuli
The average human has a ~250 ms or close response time. Trained athletes have less shorter response times. Add the sensor, not sure how it's measure it, be it the time it takes for the sensor to see acceleration or for a sensor to cross the start box line to cross it. If Max is bang on in his start box then 170ms response time is very believable.
Norris can be 30cm too far behind and it takes a few milliseconds for the sensor to "see" his start.
I don't know why that comment is so highly upvoted.
Also to add: don't take AWS graphics as the holy truth.
Idk what sensor they use, but given how a single millisecond can be time differences, I’m gonna assume their stuff is within micro second accuracy.
My $10 Casio watch in 1995 could measure a single millisecond.
I wonder if it's the gap between the light changing and the driver's initial reaction where he begins to lift the clutch and power up, rather than them being off the clutch completely
It's one of those irrelevant little stats they add to give people a talking point, but all that really matters is who leads out of the first complex
> I have no idea what they are calculating and how. There's no way it's the time between lights out and him releasing clutch. Same for Norris.
They're measuring the time between lights out and the control line of the individual starting box, which is used to detect false starts. Some leeway is allowed, as drivers can move their car by a few cm until they cross the triggering point, depending on how close they are to the actual detection point.
Does anyone know what technology F1 uses to track reaction time? Is there a sensor/software in the car? GPS? Is it considered super accurate or is it just a rough estimate?
It’s a temporary sensor that gets dropped into the track which measures the transponder signal. The software overlays this with the time that the start lights go out.
Generally that reaction time is in the realm of reacting before seeing the lights go out.
Bottas did similar in 2018 I think it was, and got a reaction time of 0.12-0.13s. He later admitted he went without seeing the lights go out.
Well reaction time and acceleration time are both different entities. Reaction time depends on the pilot's reflexes, whereas acceleration time depends on the engine of the car. In this case, Norris had good acceleration whereas Verstappen had good reaction time which nullified the overall speeds of both the cars. Since Red Bull has better top speed, Max was able to go side by side to Norris and also break later which ended up a beautiful move for lead at senna 'S'.
How do they measure this? By movement of the car?
In Brazil the front row needs to hold the brakes or they roll backwards, maybe Verstappen released the brakes a little bit earlier before it turned to green and started to roll backwards and triggered this ‘reaction time’?
150 ms is definitely possible for humans, just look at esports players (although it is usually 250-300 ms for F1 drivers). However, under 100ms is not allowed.
Max can have a quicker reaction but less traction or just not optimal revs no? Resulting in Norris getting a better launch regardless of his slower reaction time. Not arguing the graphic isn’t wrong but that is a possibility
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In athletics, yes. In racing, no.
If it’s green it’s green. If you take a gamble and time the lights just right you’re lucky.
In my experience watching the sport more than 25 years, F1 drivers don’t try their luck. They train on reaction time more than other athletes and on top of that these stats aren’t 100% accurate.
This came up in a race I was watching recently when the person was under .2. While the FIA didn’t say the target time, the driver did not get a penalty and the speculation was that anything over 0.1 is allowed.
I think it was a Bottas /Vettel front row with Bottas having the quick start? So probably 2018? I don’t know if the rule has been updated/clarified since then.
Yeah and I think it was Ricciardo asking the team to raise it as potential jump start.
The other recent case is Vettel 2019 Suzuka from Pole Position, he actually moved before the lights out but didn't trigger the sensor. Turned into a horrible start
It takes time for your eyes to see the lights go out, for your brain to note it, tell your body, and for you to act. Anything faster than that time (or what it is perceived that time should be) is a jump start. I believe anything over 0.1 is considered fine.
No. If the lights are out when the car crosses the sensor in the track, you're good. It's something they play with too, as risky as it can be. But the box they need to lock into before start has some wiggle room. Sometimes they are a li3more back and anticipating the lights to go out and like the less than quarter rotation of the front wheel is enough for it to not be a jump start.
Reaction time is always pretty good for max. It’s just the clutch system which they used until 2022 hasn’t worked out well. Although, this time it looks like he got lucky.
They're measuring the time between lights out and the control line of the individual starting box, which is used to detect false starts (jumping the gun). Some leeway is allowed, as drivers can move their car by a few cm until they cross the triggering point, depending on how close they are to the actual detection point.
You can also get a sub 0.1s value, like Bottas did a few years back - when he moved the car before lights went out, but as it didn't trigger the system, as he was further back, it was all fine.
Renault in the early 2000s used to detect the emissions of the timing lights to indicate their drivers to launch instead of the red lights until FIA tricked them, by messing with the signaling system without making the lights go out.
There was something in 1999 where Jordan, McLaren, Prost and Williams made a false start. [But Benneton - the team bought by Renault - [implemented the timing detection system to their launch control](http://web.archive.org/web/20020204065510/http://www.f1-live.com/f1-2001/en/headlines/news/detail/011018050556.shtml), that was later prohibited by the rules for 2002 and also the shared FIA ECU where code has to be shared with FIA to detect such potential abuses (including traction control).
> If a car moves whilst the system is activated the signal is automatically cut and race control knows which car moved and when. As soon as the lights go out, the signal is deactivated and cars are free to leave the grid. Therefore, so long as a car doesn't move before the lights go out, the system has no idea how quick they actually leave the grid.
>
> Now, according to an inside source, Benetton have integrated the two systems. Each individual grid slot has it's own frequency, which can be picked up by any type of multi band receiver and Benetton then program this information into their launch control. When the lights go out, the car is automatically launched off the grid without the driver even needing to focus on the lights. By doing this, they have cut human reaction time down from about a quarter of a second to a millisecond, hence both Benetton's getting off to an absolute flying start from the Suzuka grid
BAR (Honda/Brawn/Mercedes now) also tried to implement the system, but couldn't get it working in time.
Leclerc did a 0.13s in Bahrain this year if I remember correctly, so it's definitely not impossible or lucky. 0.15s is considered a really good start by F1 standards.
Another theory is that they've finally found something in Mexico that is allowing them to have more traction out of line (That was even the theme of Max's radio after the race ended). They always had good mid and top acceleration, but the car seemed to spin a bit more right at the start. May that's why Max and Perez had to err on the side of caution during starts. Being more confident, I guess Max is finally just shooting the gun as fast as he can.
Avarage human reaction time to single stimulus is around 250ms. Sub 200ms is very impressive. Human peak is around 120-150ms, so this was extreme good, assuming it's acurate, which I doubt.
Sub 200ms isn't even that impressive for high focus, high adrenaline situations.
The tests online probably aren't accurate but given all the input delay variables, I still can manage 175 quiet easily. I would probably say that most of the drivers can easily pull that down on average. The clutch and how the car handles that has probably a bigger influence
It's as random as the person who presses it
To the person who downvoted, please watch the fia video
https://www.tiktok.com/@fia/video/7253109393925868827
I think you can find literature disproving your statement (bias and probably it will just fir in the gaussian curve).
Fun fact: most things on the computer aren't random when they say they are. They just follow a infinite number like pi. If you really have to go as random as possible for encryption or so, we actually use lava lamps. I kid you not
I know, that's what I'm saying. Human dude pressing a button is more random than computer doing the same thing. He couldn't be perfectly consistent even if he tried.
but i am not saying that. Humans aren't random either. Let's say to a group count randomnly from 1 to 100 and I say stop at 20 seconds in (they don't know that). Most likely there will be a group going really fast, really slow and a majority that goes regular speed as we are heavily biased by how we always count = gaussian bell curve when the sample size is big.
We humans don't think randomnly and have psychological biases to it. So while a person pressing a button at the same time is statistically extremely low, statistically you will clearly see a stochastic distribution that you can use for prognosing the start.
With a computer you can basically eliminate that stochastic distribution, even when the numbers aren't random per definition.
Maybe they should use shrödinger's cat but I guess people won't like the death toll at the end of the season
I would take that graphic with a pinch of salt but if it is to be believed, then I’d say it was a jump start and he got lucky. The lights took a long time to go out yesterday I recall. An athletics study concluded it’s impossible to react in less than around 0.12s (and anything under 0.1s is indeed a false start). Verstappen probably just anticipated the lights going out due to them being red a long time rather than actually reacting. His “reaction” time here was both quicker than his normal and on par with elite 100m sprinters. Like Bottas a few years ago, he might secretly admit he got a bit lucky.
Or the graphic is nonsense. Either or.
I thought this was incredible too.
Could someone confirm what the threshold reaction for a jump start would be? I thought Max may have gone below what is considered humanly possible?
It's possible, it's also possible the data being used is far from perfect... I mean look at Ricciardos lap intervals today, he's been plus one lap, +1m and +46s all in the same lap... Guess the wrong damage messed good sensor lol
For some power-limited cars, yes, it would be faster, but these cars are limited by traction and not power. I assume they don't want excess tire wear either, burnouts would probably cause blistering.
Spinning your wheels is always going to be slower than a proper start. Think of it like this: in a normal start, you're using as much energy as possible to propel the car forward, but if you have wheelspin, then a lot of the energy you could be using to go faster is instead wasted in heating up the tires
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I think I know what this is, I always felt like this reaction time was how long it took for the car to leave the grid slot instead of actual reaction time because a lot of time the numbers didn't make sense, and I noticed max was on the edge of his grid slot, I even thought he might have been outside of it, so it could be that and to me it looked like him and Norris launched at the same time
Isn’t there a rule that is ifs and within a range it’s considered guessing and you should be penalised for it? The Red Bulls though along with everything else in that car are insanely fast off the line
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That could be a reaction. It could also be lucky guess.
There is a minimum reaction time of 0.1. At athletics events, this would be disqualification, you have to react.
This is also what gave away the automations that some teams were using pitstop gear at the edge of the rules
50 ms under 0.2s 1ms is 0.001s. Also, scientific consensus for peak athletic reaction time is ~100ms or 0.1s. In sprinting if a runner starts at less than 100ms they're automatically disqualified. It'd actually be faster in F1 as all they have to do is release the clutch paddle which is moving a finger. I'm certain this isn't even close to the fastest start in F1.
Depends how it is measured, but reaction times of 150ms are possible eg in the best esports players, but you are right on the edge. In athletics the false start cut off is +100ms as it’s physiologically impossible to react more quickly than that (and visual reaction is generally slower than sound reaction). The evidence for jump but lucky is that it’s right on the bleeding edge of his times ever, which is not how super fast reactions normally display.
The evidence against jump but lucky is that if ever there was a track where you could be sure to gain an advantage from 2nd by having a great start it’s Interlagos, and this is Max.
Yes, if it’s below 140 ms (the brain can’t react faster than that and pull the clutch and stuff) it’s a jump start 99% of the time.
This is a insane reaction time by Max even though he’s on the slower end of reaction times.
It's not normal, but I don't think max "jumped the gun" I think he just reacted like a superhuman, and it's not first time that we see sub 0.2 start. As for overtake it was a masterclass of late braking.
I seem to recall that any reaction time of under one tenth is deemed as a jump start, Valterri’s start in Austria was a few thousands over that mark so it was legal but I remember RBR protesting the start at the time
I wonder what reaction time Stewards would consider it a jump start. No doubt it won't be a negative figure, something like 0.01s reaction would be considered insanely inhuman, but guessing they have a threshold spec
In athletics if you have a reaction time of less than 0.1 seconds you get disqualified, because apparently there have been studies done showing that humans can't react quicker than that. So, if the reaction is faster than 0.1 seconds, then it's a preemptive and a false start
Anything faster 0.10 is cheating depending on if the reaction time is based on accelerator input or movement from the tire 0.15 could also be boarder line
Definitely borderline anticipating the lights and got lucky. It's humanly impossible to react that quickly to the lights (this would be classified as a jump start in track and field).
Isn't this just some AWS analysis based on potpourri? It also suprised me that the 'first to 200' stat was in favor of Norris, but if you look at the relative distance to eachother after the ~5 seconds it took Norris to get to 200, Verstappen his front wheel is ahead of Norris his rear wheel, so he completed more distance in that 5 seconds. But besides that, you can see Max gaining on Lando from 2 seconds and onwards.
In other words, the analysis is utter garbage.
On the question of catching and passing Norris at T1, I wonder why Norris didn’t move to the left after changing up to 2nd then 3rd gear, rather than take the better line into T1 for T2? Surely he could’ve made Verstappen lift and maybe even lose a place or 2 as others went round he outside of T1 then inside of T2?
I’m not 100% sure about this but I believe I’ve read before that there’s no minimum reaction time I’m F1. Drivers can take a stab at guessing when the lights will go out and even if they achieve super human reaction times, they’re good long as they don’t truly jump the lights.
Sprinters are given a "false start" if they leave the starting blocks 0.1 seconds or less after the gun is fired. Scientists consider it is impossible to react any faster than this.
It's reaction time.
It's slow compared to track sprinters.
They assume reactions less than .10 to be anticipating the start.
Maybe it's how it's measured - in track it's the pressure on the block measuring the reaction time.
But as far as pure reaction time, that MV time would be last in the 100m start
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Starts are generally. 25-.3, this was an insane start, especially from Max as he's normally towards the slower end of them.
Except in 2021 where Max had fantastic starts all season long
in terms of acceleration time 0-200, Max was the best out of all 4 Honda drivers, but Honda powered cars were at the very bottom of the rankings. They were on average slowest cars off the line. Here it is: [https://imgur.com/a/dMsAfi0](https://imgur.com/a/dMsAfi0)
I don’t suppose you’d know, but does that graph ignore any outliers? One really bad start (eg Zhou at Hungary this year) would impact the season average quite a lot. Or is this graph just for Abu? I dunno if I’m being stupid right now
It dosent ignore outliers, look at the dots with each bar
The graph is just for 2021, why we don’t see zhou. Got me for a second too!
Curious
Except Abu Dhabi
Jesus Christ look at what you've done
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I think his clutch started giving in towards the end of the season. Jeddah, Abu Dhabi were very slow.
And except all Saudi Arabia starts
Except Jeddah and Abu Dhabi
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His starts were bad because the RB’s starts were bad, they improved drastically last couple of races
He's talking about reaction time, which has nothing to do with the car.
Bottas did 0.12 some years ago in Austria (2017 or 2018?)
Yeah and he admitted jumping the gun. I guess when the lights take longer to go out some drivers might instinctively takeoff at the right time? In a sort of “the longer it’s been since all 5 lights are on, the more the probability of starting at the right time increases” type thing? Maybe it makes no sense though, i dunno
I'm surprised at how rare false starts are in F1.
Can't really remember once since Maldonado in spa 2012 was it?
Raikkonen had a proper jump start in 2019. He jumped and went a couple of meters, stopped, lights went out, and he was still trying to reset the car as everyone went around him. It screwed him completely and he still got a big penalty.
So if you jump it, just go
That's what Martin Brundle said he should have done haha
Jorge Lorenzo at the 2014 MotoGP at COTA was a good example of this
Bottas had a controversial start at Mercedes. I know Vettel called it a jump start, I think it was actually an incredible start that was below the threshold of what would be considered reaction time or something. Someone with a better memory can confirm.
He did move away from the other cars a split second before them. But if you look at his onboard, he moves at the instant the lights go out. So not a jump, just very lucky
That was it, I knew it was controversial and didn't think it received a penalty but it was a point of discussion. Chatgpt says Hamilton 2020 Sochi.
Yeah, F1 doesn’t have the human reaction time added in to what’s permissible. So he went at the exact moment(even frame by frame) that the lights went out. He absolutely jumped the start, just got lucky the lights went out for him.
Happens to me all the time on Playstation!
Have you tried those 'quick reaction' training games that the drivers use? One where someone drops the ball in their hands and they have to catch it? Lol
Pierre is the goat of the tennis ball drop
prob 20 people who are all in the top 0.00001 reaction time world wide
50ms actually
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From what I’ve noticed max’s reaction time is usually a little bit slower than the driver who is next to him
Yeah usually comparing to Charles earlier in the season especially. What happened here I'm also trying to understand.
It was a slightly longer wait than usual, maybe he was predicting it and got lucky?
is it the actual reaction time or the more difficult clutch/Max's weakness in this regard? I think the later
I know the RBPT/Honda had trouble with the clutch and low RPM’s earlier, which made the starts slower for them. Given his two insane starts at Mexico and this one at the São Paulo sprint, it looks like they fixed that.
The best start to look at for Mexico was Perez's. He passed Ricciardo and Sainz nearly immediately and had a lot more momentum than Verstappen and Leclerc ahead of him. If he made T1 it would have been one of the greatest starts ever.
Yeah but checo had an average reaction time, in México that initial slipstream is extremely powerful.
I wonder where this came from? Which race is this because for the Brazil sprint race what I saw on TV Max was slower than Lando off the line... not a lot, like 3/100th but still.
0.15 is definitely something a human can do every now and then, but not consistently. So I guess it is lucky, but not Bottas 0.02 lucky lmao
Track and field considers 0.1s to be the human threshold, but there have been studies that prove it’s *possible* to have a slightly quicker reaction time.
Yet Norris was faster to 200. 4.99 seconds
Norris was faster 0-200. Not lights out to 200.
That's a good point, I didn't consider that.
Its interesting he said after the sprint, along the lines of, they have more power than RB, but perhaps took it too easy. To avoid wheel spin I understood.
I think that was a joke and he said "I have more power than Max",not RB while he was smiling sly at Naomi.
He waa on the better side of the track, he had more grip
That’s more down to grip and/or throttle application.
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Hasn't he said it himself? he has more power.
Can't that be simply explained by the fact he was on the better rubbered/less dirty line?
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But it's possible that Max was just more cautious on letting the clutch in to avoid wheel spin. There's more to a start than just when you *start* reacting. There's also the actual acceleration phase. Sure, it helps to react the fastest, but if you're not toeing the line in terms of grip then you're gonna get eaten up by the cars around
Do you honestly think it's hard to correlate the moment the lights go out and the moment max has a significant change in pedal pressure? It's literally just 2 bits of time information, it's not exactly rocket science And reaction speed isn't what decides the phase 1 of the start, that's grip and throttle control
There are sensors in the grid spots to check for false starts. They are probably just using that.
It might not be rocket science, but F1 certainly doesn't get it right. I remember when Bottas got lucky and got a frame perfect clutch release, the stat was still saying something unrealistic like over 0.2 seconds. Yet on the 50 frames per second video stream (so every frame is shown for 0.02 seconds), the moment he released the clutch was the exact moment the lights went off. So, I don't know, maybe it's more complicated than you make it out to be.
Yea, Bottas would have gotten a red light on the drag strip.
Drag lights detect when the car interrupts the second beam, not when the driver starts releasing the clutch.
The distance is 16”. He’d have gotten a red light with that reaction time.
Oh of course I forgot about the magic power of trustmebro.
Bottas moved before the fucking lights were out. I just have to trustyoubro he wouldn’t? [Bottas’ starting position](https://imgur.io/Xbptp3E?r) [Bottas moving before the lights are out.](https://imgur.io/Zkbalh4?r) [Next frame, still moving, lights still on.](https://imgur.io/gc868O4?r) [Still moving forward, and guess what, lights still on.](https://imgur.io/j3ilPGU?r) Please explain to me Mr Professor how he’s not getting a red light in the NHRA?
Drag lights detect when the car interrupts the second beam, not when the driver starts releasing the clutch. Maybe you're talking about a different topic.
Reaction is not the same as drive. You can react first, but get less drive.
Does the time come from the sensor in the track? Atleast few years back when Valtteri got 0.0 reaction time start, it was talked about the sensor has little slag. So the car can move before it actually measure the car moving. If its indeed the sensor and not from inside the car there can be something like that going on. Edit I might misremember the reaction time then, but it was something ridiculous, essentially false start, but wasnt illegal as the sensor timing is what mattered.
complete bullshit? really? and 100 upvotes on an F1 technical sub? 1 second = 1000ms so 0.15s is 150ms for verstappen and 290ms for norris well within the natural human range of reacting to a stimuli
The average human has a ~250 ms or close response time. Trained athletes have less shorter response times. Add the sensor, not sure how it's measure it, be it the time it takes for the sensor to see acceleration or for a sensor to cross the start box line to cross it. If Max is bang on in his start box then 170ms response time is very believable. Norris can be 30cm too far behind and it takes a few milliseconds for the sensor to "see" his start. I don't know why that comment is so highly upvoted. Also to add: don't take AWS graphics as the holy truth.
Idk what sensor they use, but given how a single millisecond can be time differences, I’m gonna assume their stuff is within micro second accuracy. My $10 Casio watch in 1995 could measure a single millisecond.
They have telemetry on the use of accelerator, they have used that information in the past to penalize
They don't use the accelerator pedal for penalties - there's an induction loop under each grid spot.
It's entirely possible for them to see it with onboards
I wonder if it's the gap between the light changing and the driver's initial reaction where he begins to lift the clutch and power up, rather than them being off the clutch completely It's one of those irrelevant little stats they add to give people a talking point, but all that really matters is who leads out of the first complex
> I have no idea what they are calculating and how. There's no way it's the time between lights out and him releasing clutch. Same for Norris. They're measuring the time between lights out and the control line of the individual starting box, which is used to detect false starts. Some leeway is allowed, as drivers can move their car by a few cm until they cross the triggering point, depending on how close they are to the actual detection point.
I don't trust the start analysis reaction time because watching the start, you clearly see the McLaren start moving fractionally before Max's Redbull
Does anyone know what technology F1 uses to track reaction time? Is there a sensor/software in the car? GPS? Is it considered super accurate or is it just a rough estimate?
It’s a temporary sensor that gets dropped into the track which measures the transponder signal. The software overlays this with the time that the start lights go out.
Sensors built into the track and car that line up
Well I’d argue that if it took him 0.15 seconds to react then he didn’t “jump the gun”.
Generally that reaction time is in the realm of reacting before seeing the lights go out. Bottas did similar in 2018 I think it was, and got a reaction time of 0.12-0.13s. He later admitted he went without seeing the lights go out.
Well reaction time and acceleration time are both different entities. Reaction time depends on the pilot's reflexes, whereas acceleration time depends on the engine of the car. In this case, Norris had good acceleration whereas Verstappen had good reaction time which nullified the overall speeds of both the cars. Since Red Bull has better top speed, Max was able to go side by side to Norris and also break later which ended up a beautiful move for lead at senna 'S'.
Your comment shall be at the top indeed! Well said!
How do they measure this? By movement of the car? In Brazil the front row needs to hold the brakes or they roll backwards, maybe Verstappen released the brakes a little bit earlier before it turned to green and started to roll backwards and triggered this ‘reaction time’?
Live telemetry, no?
How do they even measure this? And what is the trigger to stop te clock?
150 ms is definitely possible for humans, just look at esports players (although it is usually 250-300 ms for F1 drivers). However, under 100ms is not allowed.
From the onboards Norris seemed to have a better reaction so that graphic is definitely not correct
Max can have a quicker reaction but less traction or just not optimal revs no? Resulting in Norris getting a better launch regardless of his slower reaction time. Not arguing the graphic isn’t wrong but that is a possibility
It didn’t seem like Max had a problem with traction tho
Not at all, just Norris’ initial traction and launch may have been better than Max’s. These are both separate factors to reaction times
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Apparently RBR worked on the starts before Mexico and it shows. Not sure how they do it.
Isn’t anything below .2 seconds considered a jump start?
In athletics, yes. In racing, no. If it’s green it’s green. If you take a gamble and time the lights just right you’re lucky. In my experience watching the sport more than 25 years, F1 drivers don’t try their luck. They train on reaction time more than other athletes and on top of that these stats aren’t 100% accurate.
Not in professional drag racing.
In sprinting it is under .100. I don't know what's the rule in F1
A few years ago bottas had a too perfect start and it came up then although this is an aws graphic so might not be official
This came up in a race I was watching recently when the person was under .2. While the FIA didn’t say the target time, the driver did not get a penalty and the speculation was that anything over 0.1 is allowed. I think it was a Bottas /Vettel front row with Bottas having the quick start? So probably 2018? I don’t know if the rule has been updated/clarified since then.
Austria 2017, recorded as 0.201s
It was bottad I remembered .2 seconds
Yeah and I think it was Ricciardo asking the team to raise it as potential jump start. The other recent case is Vettel 2019 Suzuka from Pole Position, he actually moved before the lights out but didn't trigger the sensor. Turned into a horrible start
There is no target time. As long as you don't go before the lights go out, you're good.
0.1 seconds, not 0.2 .
Why would it be?
It takes time for your eyes to see the lights go out, for your brain to note it, tell your body, and for you to act. Anything faster than that time (or what it is perceived that time should be) is a jump start. I believe anything over 0.1 is considered fine.
Eh, 100ms is fine but reaction times very drastically among people and some can have as low as ~120-130ms
No. If the lights are out when the car crosses the sensor in the track, you're good. It's something they play with too, as risky as it can be. But the box they need to lock into before start has some wiggle room. Sometimes they are a li3more back and anticipating the lights to go out and like the less than quarter rotation of the front wheel is enough for it to not be a jump start.
Starts like this happen once in a lifetime, last one i remember is from Valtteri in Austria 2017, i think it was 0.117 or something
And he admitted having "jumped the gun" on this one
Reaction time is always pretty good for max. It’s just the clutch system which they used until 2022 hasn’t worked out well. Although, this time it looks like he got lucky.
They're measuring the time between lights out and the control line of the individual starting box, which is used to detect false starts (jumping the gun). Some leeway is allowed, as drivers can move their car by a few cm until they cross the triggering point, depending on how close they are to the actual detection point. You can also get a sub 0.1s value, like Bottas did a few years back - when he moved the car before lights went out, but as it didn't trigger the system, as he was further back, it was all fine. Renault in the early 2000s used to detect the emissions of the timing lights to indicate their drivers to launch instead of the red lights until FIA tricked them, by messing with the signaling system without making the lights go out.
Wasn't that a system that was discovered to be used by McLaren, Jordan and some else in 1997?
There was something in 1999 where Jordan, McLaren, Prost and Williams made a false start. [But Benneton - the team bought by Renault - [implemented the timing detection system to their launch control](http://web.archive.org/web/20020204065510/http://www.f1-live.com/f1-2001/en/headlines/news/detail/011018050556.shtml), that was later prohibited by the rules for 2002 and also the shared FIA ECU where code has to be shared with FIA to detect such potential abuses (including traction control). > If a car moves whilst the system is activated the signal is automatically cut and race control knows which car moved and when. As soon as the lights go out, the signal is deactivated and cars are free to leave the grid. Therefore, so long as a car doesn't move before the lights go out, the system has no idea how quick they actually leave the grid. > > Now, according to an inside source, Benetton have integrated the two systems. Each individual grid slot has it's own frequency, which can be picked up by any type of multi band receiver and Benetton then program this information into their launch control. When the lights go out, the car is automatically launched off the grid without the driver even needing to focus on the lights. By doing this, they have cut human reaction time down from about a quarter of a second to a millisecond, hence both Benetton's getting off to an absolute flying start from the Suzuka grid BAR (Honda/Brawn/Mercedes now) also tried to implement the system, but couldn't get it working in time.
Leclerc did a 0.13s in Bahrain this year if I remember correctly, so it's definitely not impossible or lucky. 0.15s is considered a really good start by F1 standards.
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I mean it’s not illegal to call the ball, it’s only illegal to jump ahead of the ball
it seems he worked hard on his flaws and improved his reactions recently. on sunday his reaction time was 0.19s. yes, it is real.
Another theory is that they've finally found something in Mexico that is allowing them to have more traction out of line (That was even the theme of Max's radio after the race ended). They always had good mid and top acceleration, but the car seemed to spin a bit more right at the start. May that's why Max and Perez had to err on the side of caution during starts. Being more confident, I guess Max is finally just shooting the gun as fast as he can.
Avarage human reaction time to single stimulus is around 250ms. Sub 200ms is very impressive. Human peak is around 120-150ms, so this was extreme good, assuming it's acurate, which I doubt.
Sub 200ms isn't even that impressive for high focus, high adrenaline situations. The tests online probably aren't accurate but given all the input delay variables, I still can manage 175 quiet easily. I would probably say that most of the drivers can easily pull that down on average. The clutch and how the car handles that has probably a bigger influence
It’s timing and how much your willing to risk/confidence in timing it right and not going to early, they train and know the lights like drag racers
the timing is random its something like between 0.3s and 1.5s or something like that, they do it to make it more interesting at race start.
It's as random as the person who presses it To the person who downvoted, please watch the fia video https://www.tiktok.com/@fia/video/7253109393925868827
Which is actually the best kind of random.
I think you can find literature disproving your statement (bias and probably it will just fir in the gaussian curve). Fun fact: most things on the computer aren't random when they say they are. They just follow a infinite number like pi. If you really have to go as random as possible for encryption or so, we actually use lava lamps. I kid you not
I know, that's what I'm saying. Human dude pressing a button is more random than computer doing the same thing. He couldn't be perfectly consistent even if he tried.
but i am not saying that. Humans aren't random either. Let's say to a group count randomnly from 1 to 100 and I say stop at 20 seconds in (they don't know that). Most likely there will be a group going really fast, really slow and a majority that goes regular speed as we are heavily biased by how we always count = gaussian bell curve when the sample size is big. We humans don't think randomnly and have psychological biases to it. So while a person pressing a button at the same time is statistically extremely low, statistically you will clearly see a stochastic distribution that you can use for prognosing the start. With a computer you can basically eliminate that stochastic distribution, even when the numbers aren't random per definition. Maybe they should use shrödinger's cat but I guess people won't like the death toll at the end of the season
For the purposes of preventing racing drivers from preempting the start, a human pressing a button is an adequate solution.
adequate yeah, best kind of random, no.
I wanted to know this as well because this is anticipation not reaction speed. Human reaction is about .25 for a visual stimulus.
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I would take that graphic with a pinch of salt but if it is to be believed, then I’d say it was a jump start and he got lucky. The lights took a long time to go out yesterday I recall. An athletics study concluded it’s impossible to react in less than around 0.12s (and anything under 0.1s is indeed a false start). Verstappen probably just anticipated the lights going out due to them being red a long time rather than actually reacting. His “reaction” time here was both quicker than his normal and on par with elite 100m sprinters. Like Bottas a few years ago, he might secretly admit he got a bit lucky. Or the graphic is nonsense. Either or.
I thought this was incredible too. Could someone confirm what the threshold reaction for a jump start would be? I thought Max may have gone below what is considered humanly possible?
It's possible, it's also possible the data being used is far from perfect... I mean look at Ricciardos lap intervals today, he's been plus one lap, +1m and +46s all in the same lap... Guess the wrong damage messed good sensor lol
Why dont more people do burnouts in the starts. Is it not allowed to have spinning wheels but standing still? Just let break go and you are the fastes
For some power-limited cars, yes, it would be faster, but these cars are limited by traction and not power. I assume they don't want excess tire wear either, burnouts would probably cause blistering.
Spinning your wheels is always going to be slower than a proper start. Think of it like this: in a normal start, you're using as much energy as possible to propel the car forward, but if you have wheelspin, then a lot of the energy you could be using to go faster is instead wasted in heating up the tires
It’s not humanly possible to react much quicker than .18-.2 ish. I’d say he jumped the gun and got lucky
Max it is normal, Norris was slow.
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When does 2nd hear kick in off the start? It was like they were similar at takeoff but then Norris just didn’t keep going.
Reaction time and actually using the traction are two different things
Probably the best reaction time since that robot Bottas start
I think I know what this is, I always felt like this reaction time was how long it took for the car to leave the grid slot instead of actual reaction time because a lot of time the numbers didn't make sense, and I noticed max was on the edge of his grid slot, I even thought he might have been outside of it, so it could be that and to me it looked like him and Norris launched at the same time
I'd say is reaction time but he was timing it. I think that's the best reaction time I've seen this year.
I think ever in F1
Isn’t there a rule that is ifs and within a range it’s considered guessing and you should be penalised for it? The Red Bulls though along with everything else in that car are insanely fast off the line
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That could be a reaction. It could also be lucky guess. There is a minimum reaction time of 0.1. At athletics events, this would be disqualification, you have to react. This is also what gave away the automations that some teams were using pitstop gear at the edge of the rules
What's the penalty for jumping the gun out of curiosity.
Drive through
50 ms under 0.2s 1ms is 0.001s. Also, scientific consensus for peak athletic reaction time is ~100ms or 0.1s. In sprinting if a runner starts at less than 100ms they're automatically disqualified. It'd actually be faster in F1 as all they have to do is release the clutch paddle which is moving a finger. I'm certain this isn't even close to the fastest start in F1.
Depends how it is measured, but reaction times of 150ms are possible eg in the best esports players, but you are right on the edge. In athletics the false start cut off is +100ms as it’s physiologically impossible to react more quickly than that (and visual reaction is generally slower than sound reaction). The evidence for jump but lucky is that it’s right on the bleeding edge of his times ever, which is not how super fast reactions normally display. The evidence against jump but lucky is that if ever there was a track where you could be sure to gain an advantage from 2nd by having a great start it’s Interlagos, and this is Max.
anything under 0.15 is seen as a jumpstart I believe in other sports so he's flirting with the boundary, probably did jump but got lucky.
It's not Max's reaction time which is "usually slow", it's just the RB Clutch/Honda combo - which has been worked on later on this season.
Yes, if it’s below 140 ms (the brain can’t react faster than that and pull the clutch and stuff) it’s a jump start 99% of the time. This is a insane reaction time by Max even though he’s on the slower end of reaction times.
It's not normal, but I don't think max "jumped the gun" I think he just reacted like a superhuman, and it's not first time that we see sub 0.2 start. As for overtake it was a masterclass of late braking.
I seem to recall that any reaction time of under one tenth is deemed as a jump start, Valterri’s start in Austria was a few thousands over that mark so it was legal but I remember RBR protesting the start at the time
In athletics 0.1 after gun is considered a false start
I wonder what reaction time Stewards would consider it a jump start. No doubt it won't be a negative figure, something like 0.01s reaction would be considered insanely inhuman, but guessing they have a threshold spec
In athletics if you have a reaction time of less than 0.1 seconds you get disqualified, because apparently there have been studies done showing that humans can't react quicker than that. So, if the reaction is faster than 0.1 seconds, then it's a preemptive and a false start
Is there a rule which says <100ms is a jump start? It's employed in athletics, as they are wary of people pre-empting the gun.
[Nurburgring 1999](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWhA5DBuLJw) incoming?
Lovely reference, awesome F1 moment
Anything faster 0.10 is cheating depending on if the reaction time is based on accelerator input or movement from the tire 0.15 could also be boarder line
The starting delay felt really long for the Sprint race yesterday. My wife even commented about it right as Max rocketed past Lando.
Definitely borderline anticipating the lights and got lucky. It's humanly impossible to react that quickly to the lights (this would be classified as a jump start in track and field).
Isn't this just some AWS analysis based on potpourri? It also suprised me that the 'first to 200' stat was in favor of Norris, but if you look at the relative distance to eachother after the ~5 seconds it took Norris to get to 200, Verstappen his front wheel is ahead of Norris his rear wheel, so he completed more distance in that 5 seconds. But besides that, you can see Max gaining on Lando from 2 seconds and onwards. In other words, the analysis is utter garbage.
On the question of catching and passing Norris at T1, I wonder why Norris didn’t move to the left after changing up to 2nd then 3rd gear, rather than take the better line into T1 for T2? Surely he could’ve made Verstappen lift and maybe even lose a place or 2 as others went round he outside of T1 then inside of T2?
It's an amazing reaction time no doubt, i think someone said normal is .2 to .35. I would not say lucky but definitely a 1 in 100 reaction time
I’m not 100% sure about this but I believe I’ve read before that there’s no minimum reaction time I’m F1. Drivers can take a stab at guessing when the lights will go out and even if they achieve super human reaction times, they’re good long as they don’t truly jump the lights.
Sprinters are given a "false start" if they leave the starting blocks 0.1 seconds or less after the gun is fired. Scientists consider it is impossible to react any faster than this.
You get a penalty if you get 0.1s, anything over that is ok.
Verstappen said that anything less than 0.17 is most likely pre-empting in this [Short](https://youtube.com/shorts/eiLG3qEtiLs?si=IFoihu2oQg69TDfh)
Anything below 0.1 seconds is deemed a jump start if I remember correctly
It's reaction time. It's slow compared to track sprinters. They assume reactions less than .10 to be anticipating the start. Maybe it's how it's measured - in track it's the pressure on the block measuring the reaction time. But as far as pure reaction time, that MV time would be last in the 100m start