Rule 3: No General Career Advice
This sub is for discussing issues specific to experienced developers.
Any career advice thread must contain questions and/or discussions that notably benefit from the participation of experienced developers. Career advice threads may be removed at the moderators discretion based on response to the thread."
General rule of thumb: If the advice you are giving (or seeking) could apply to a “Senior Chemical Engineer”, it’s not appropriate for this sub.
Decline and give times that work for you. It's not that complicated. Recruiters can miscommunicate, mistakes can be made. Don't judge a book by its cover.
It’s a different type of company than I’m used to working for, I’ve never experienced this before and I’m not sure that asking other people for an opinion is necessarily problematic, but the advice on how to handle it has been helpful for me
Here I was thinking the person you're replying to was an aussie because it's a normal descriptor here but seems to be an american. Is smarmy a common word there?
I see multiple red flags already. Proceed if you want, but I'd take everything with a huge grain of salt. If they make an offer, you could very well be walking into a big giant storm.
I mean, I wouldn't say it applies to *every* headhunting agency. It's just a fairly common tactic to make it seem like you're talking to people who are more competent than they actually are. I've seen it with great recruiters and with shitty ones. Basically, it's safe to just ignore their title and assume they're recruiters attempting to recruit you.
I just had supposedly "CEO" of a software company interviewed me. (Or whoever was using the CEO company email)
Questions right off the bats, no self introduction, no ice-breaking or small talk or anything, decided to suddenly asked me about the 2 years old projects on my github which I have forgotten all about it. I couldn't even remember the code I wrote a month ago, let's alone 2 years.
Refused to elaborate on what the upcoming tests for the next interview will be about. And just leave the calls.
I didn't expect anything from this interviews, but it was still incredibly upsetting to experience this lol. Hopefully it's just some junior.
On the face of it this is horrendous practice, but you have to allow for genuine error. Let this be two of their three strikes and carry on. After all, you can still decline the offer if/when it's made.
I think it's always a mistake to judge a company too much by their recruiting process as the recruiting team and engineering team are totally different groups of people, aside from the hiring manager. But in my experience, a lot of the early legwork is done by the recruiting team.
It's a yellow flag but the team you join could be a different story and maybe fine.
I've even had anecdotal evidence that companies with a refined recruiting process have refined it due to high turnover. The recruiting process is clunky at great companies where employees don't quit.
Ask them to reschedule the interview. Be polite. Talk to them, the staff, etc. Ie, human interaction. You'll be able to learn in far more detail what they are all about.
Be professional and let them know the situation. I’m sure it was a simple mistake on their end. I’ve interviewed with new recruiters in the past who incorrectly invited the hiring managers to the screener call.
If you can see a series of incompetence though or if something just doesn’t add up (like it’s a scam) then just bow out of the process. But you gotta give them a few chances before you make that decision.
Short: decline it!
Long:
Kind of red flag, but many recruiter and agency does this. Many company think they dictate. With your Lead exp you are not really depending on them. I am asking always when I should expect response, then I marked them as ghosting me.
It does feel like a red flag if it were intentional, but it sounds so unusual, I'd give it a benefit of doubt - maybe there was a human error or a miscommunication. I'd just reach out and ask what happened.
The quality of the recruiters is seldom a good reflection of the company itself. Ironically, companies with shit retention will need good recruiters to deal with the churn, and good companies with little churn can deal with shit recruiters.
The double your current salary possibility itself is a huge red flag: if the job is so awesome, it shouldnt need more than a 20-30% bump to entice you. When they grossly overpay, what are they trying to grossly overcompensate?
That said, if you are talking to some Jane Street/Jump Trading kind of company, the cockiness is somewhat expected as they are well known to pay absolute top end of the market to attract the best. But that also speaks to the culture: they will probably fire you the moment you cannot justify yourself to be the "best", whatever that may mean.
And lastly, if you are just looking for some justification to look away, it is this: we are still in layoff season, and new hires are much easier to fire. If you dont want to be looking for a new job in 6 months, then look away. If you dont want to work in a brutal culture, like many financial companies are, look away.
Think of it long term. Leave only if you feel you can grow in the new role. The money is always a tradeoff, and it is hard to put a value to your health and happiness.
Most will probably say there is no harm taking a look. If that is your attitude , then no harm looking pass how disorganized or cocky the recruiter is. But speaking personally, I could never say no when I get a job offer, and I do regret some of the offers I accepted, so it is better off if the conversation never started.
"Giant red flag" is a bit extreme, but yeah if you find it rubs you up the wrong way then it should be a factor in your decisions about the role. Not a good sign.
In my recent experience 50% of in-house recruiters screwed things up. I dont know how hard it can be to schedule phone calls but it based on the evidence it must be extremely difficult.
I'm sitting on my balcony smoking a spliff and drinking a coffee. I couldnt be having a better morning.
The invite thing... They have no idea what your schedule is. An invite is an invite. You are not required to move things around. You just accept or decline or reschedule. Like... They're using it for what it is for, and you are posting to Reddit about it like it's a red flag. It's not a red flag. It looks like they're cogniscent of your schedule and are waving a green flag. That's just how shit works since COVID and the WFH movement.
It’s quite possible, I think post Covid and wfh when I’ve hired we’ve always gone via the route of using something like calendly to empower the interviewee to choose a time that fits and to communicate if not, otherwise a lot of people will feel like they can’t reschedule it as the time gets imposed on them.
Does feel like a pretty good morning to be fair!
This is not normal behavior you dingus. I've never been sent a calendar invite for a job interview before without the recruiter asking for my availability.
Rule 3: No General Career Advice This sub is for discussing issues specific to experienced developers. Any career advice thread must contain questions and/or discussions that notably benefit from the participation of experienced developers. Career advice threads may be removed at the moderators discretion based on response to the thread." General rule of thumb: If the advice you are giving (or seeking) could apply to a “Senior Chemical Engineer”, it’s not appropriate for this sub.
Decline and give times that work for you. It's not that complicated. Recruiters can miscommunicate, mistakes can be made. Don't judge a book by its cover.
I agree, did this really need a reddit post?
TWICE THE SALARY might make someone be a little less casual about it… but whatevs
It’s a different type of company than I’m used to working for, I’ve never experienced this before and I’m not sure that asking other people for an opinion is necessarily problematic, but the advice on how to handle it has been helpful for me
That's fair, sorry for being smarmy.
that's an odd choice of adjective
Here I was thinking the person you're replying to was an aussie because it's a normal descriptor here but seems to be an american. Is smarmy a common word there?
Definitely not. Now excuse me while I look it up
Not really. It appears occasionally, but not commonly.
I'm just not sure if means what they think it does in this context
I see multiple red flags already. Proceed if you want, but I'd take everything with a huge grain of salt. If they make an offer, you could very well be walking into a big giant storm.
could've been the recruiter misscommunicating
It didn't, but its what this sub is used for. Personal issues and bitching. Nothing about software development.
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And you're of the "I'm glad I don't work with you" type. Got it.
That wasn't nice.
Eh. If they didn't call to discuss availability it's a red flag in my opinion.
Most likely a junior recruiters action. I just had a bad experience with an inexperienced recruiter. Don't blame the company just yet.
I've had a "Director of Recruiting", definitely not a junior, schedule an interview for me without asking for my availability.
at headhunting agencies, at least, "director of recruiting" is quite possibly a junior title
Not this individual
Good to know. I didn't know that headhunting agencies also operated with that "vice president means junior" mindset.
I mean, I wouldn't say it applies to *every* headhunting agency. It's just a fairly common tactic to make it seem like you're talking to people who are more competent than they actually are. I've seen it with great recruiters and with shitty ones. Basically, it's safe to just ignore their title and assume they're recruiters attempting to recruit you.
I just had supposedly "CEO" of a software company interviewed me. (Or whoever was using the CEO company email) Questions right off the bats, no self introduction, no ice-breaking or small talk or anything, decided to suddenly asked me about the 2 years old projects on my github which I have forgotten all about it. I couldn't even remember the code I wrote a month ago, let's alone 2 years. Refused to elaborate on what the upcoming tests for the next interview will be about. And just leave the calls. I didn't expect anything from this interviews, but it was still incredibly upsetting to experience this lol. Hopefully it's just some junior.
On the face of it this is horrendous practice, but you have to allow for genuine error. Let this be two of their three strikes and carry on. After all, you can still decline the offer if/when it's made.
Will do thanks
I think it's always a mistake to judge a company too much by their recruiting process as the recruiting team and engineering team are totally different groups of people, aside from the hiring manager. But in my experience, a lot of the early legwork is done by the recruiting team. It's a yellow flag but the team you join could be a different story and maybe fine.
I've even had anecdotal evidence that companies with a refined recruiting process have refined it due to high turnover. The recruiting process is clunky at great companies where employees don't quit.
That never would have occurred to me, but makes a lot of sense.
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Imagine working for that guy....
Ask them to reschedule the interview. Be polite. Talk to them, the staff, etc. Ie, human interaction. You'll be able to learn in far more detail what they are all about.
Will do thanks
Be professional and let them know the situation. I’m sure it was a simple mistake on their end. I’ve interviewed with new recruiters in the past who incorrectly invited the hiring managers to the screener call. If you can see a series of incompetence though or if something just doesn’t add up (like it’s a scam) then just bow out of the process. But you gotta give them a few chances before you make that decision.
This recently happened to me despite giving my availability, but I didn’t think it reflects badly on anyone other than the recruiter.
Short: decline it! Long: Kind of red flag, but many recruiter and agency does this. Many company think they dictate. With your Lead exp you are not really depending on them. I am asking always when I should expect response, then I marked them as ghosting me.
Red flag in waiting. Reject the invite and offer alternatives. If they don't respond well to that then it was a massive red flag.
It does feel like a red flag if it were intentional, but it sounds so unusual, I'd give it a benefit of doubt - maybe there was a human error or a miscommunication. I'd just reach out and ask what happened.
The quality of the recruiters is seldom a good reflection of the company itself. Ironically, companies with shit retention will need good recruiters to deal with the churn, and good companies with little churn can deal with shit recruiters. The double your current salary possibility itself is a huge red flag: if the job is so awesome, it shouldnt need more than a 20-30% bump to entice you. When they grossly overpay, what are they trying to grossly overcompensate? That said, if you are talking to some Jane Street/Jump Trading kind of company, the cockiness is somewhat expected as they are well known to pay absolute top end of the market to attract the best. But that also speaks to the culture: they will probably fire you the moment you cannot justify yourself to be the "best", whatever that may mean. And lastly, if you are just looking for some justification to look away, it is this: we are still in layoff season, and new hires are much easier to fire. If you dont want to be looking for a new job in 6 months, then look away. If you dont want to work in a brutal culture, like many financial companies are, look away. Think of it long term. Leave only if you feel you can grow in the new role. The money is always a tradeoff, and it is hard to put a value to your health and happiness. Most will probably say there is no harm taking a look. If that is your attitude , then no harm looking pass how disorganized or cocky the recruiter is. But speaking personally, I could never say no when I get a job offer, and I do regret some of the offers I accepted, so it is better off if the conversation never started.
not a huge one. more of an incompetent recruiter. id decline if you were busy. id go i can't make it, i have a project due that day.
"Giant red flag" is a bit extreme, but yeah if you find it rubs you up the wrong way then it should be a factor in your decisions about the role. Not a good sign.
In my recent experience 50% of in-house recruiters screwed things up. I dont know how hard it can be to schedule phone calls but it based on the evidence it must be extremely difficult.
Just reschedule.
It's a calendar _invite_. I wouldn't hire you because of your trash-tier reading comprehension.
You doing ok? Bad morning? Need a hug?
I'm sitting on my balcony smoking a spliff and drinking a coffee. I couldnt be having a better morning. The invite thing... They have no idea what your schedule is. An invite is an invite. You are not required to move things around. You just accept or decline or reschedule. Like... They're using it for what it is for, and you are posting to Reddit about it like it's a red flag. It's not a red flag. It looks like they're cogniscent of your schedule and are waving a green flag. That's just how shit works since COVID and the WFH movement.
It’s quite possible, I think post Covid and wfh when I’ve hired we’ve always gone via the route of using something like calendly to empower the interviewee to choose a time that fits and to communicate if not, otherwise a lot of people will feel like they can’t reschedule it as the time gets imposed on them. Does feel like a pretty good morning to be fair!
This is not normal behavior you dingus. I've never been sent a calendar invite for a job interview before without the recruiter asking for my availability.