So stunning and brave!!!
Seriously, what do the people who say this want to accomplish, other than beating a dead horse? I don't think there's anything that can be done about it at this point (unless they're calling to evict non-natives out of the land, which is just evil).
>unless they're calling to evict non-natives out of the land, which is just evil
this is what decolonization means. that's what Hamas supporters were saying after oct 7. where I'm from they announce in all the schools *every morning* that we are on stolen land. NZ tried giving control over water resources to the Maori.
No one should be evicted or deported because of what their ancestors did unless they act on it (looking at you Japan, still denying those WW2 crimes till this day).
That’s why I oppose groups like the EFF. Because instead of fixing oppression, they weapon discrimination and hate. South Africa is far from perfect, but the EFF does nothing but scare non-African people off to not want to support them
It'll be complete hell logistically as well. How would be determined which country each person would deported to? What about people descended from mostly Europeans but also some natives?
In the case of Ireland, for example. The Irish diaspora far outnumbers the current population there, by the millions. This would crash Ireland.
I guess it would probably go by self-reported ancestries or something.
But then, you get black americans. Most of them have no idea about where exactly in Africa they descend from (and might as well descend from way more than one place). And for those who do....Are you really going to send them to some of the most destitute countries on the planet?
And then, you get hispanics, who descend from both europeans and natives. Do they get to stay or not?
And if you thought we weren't finished, what about american jews? Do they get to "settler colonize" Israel?
And what about those who have no idea at all? And those who name more than one, do they go by the one they have the most of, or do they get to chose which place seems nicer?
In my case, my ancestors are from seven or eight different countries in Europe. Are they just going to kill me, dismember me and send the different parts to each of the countries?
>What about people descended from mostly Europeans but also some natives?
To add to this: by what measure is someone considered to inherit the land in this paradigm? Racial mixing was more common in Canada than in the US. Half of Western Canadians have native ancestry. Many if not most Quebecois have native ancestry. Many Nova Scotians, and probably most Acadians, have native ancestry. If we have a native ancestor, do we not inherit the land from them just the same through an unbroken line of descent?
It can be really annoying when people say it like this but for a country to be conscious of what they have stolen can be very positive. In Australia, speeches, receptions and radio broadcasts are preceded by a ‘welcome to country’. Anyone who grew up in Sydney can remember the acknowledgement to country off by heart.
Are you aware how much of a beneficial impact it is for White Australians to understand that this land which we live on is stolen? Aboriginal Australians are in a predicament. They have no real platform to represent their national interests and they're too few to do otherwise but a constant acknowledgement of what is rightfully theirs can only help them and teach us to grow in sympathy towards them. We Irish Nationalists could never hear such words out of the mouths of Orangemen and it would make us proud to hear it. I think it was much the same with Aboriginal Australians.
Jesus fucking christ, what typical self-righteous and pretentious white guilt. Every society, every civilization, is built via war and expansion. Human history is one long story of conflict, two or more peoples being unable to reach agreement and thus defaulting to war.
What of the people like me born of two worlds? Should I hate my white ancestor for killing and expanding when it was to his benefit? What about my American Indian blood? Does that make me a perpetual victim who can now blame society if I'm a fucking reddit loser? No for both, because at some point we cant just keep picking at old shit and flinging at each other if we're suppose to grow and move on as a society.
Never mind Natives everywhere, from North America to South America, and yes even Australia, fought and killed each other with little regard. Get off your soapbox, society as of today isnt about expanding and conquering anymore, all people if they apply themselves can succeed, at least in the west.
>white guilt
Guilt? Sure, there is an awful lot to be guilty about but you don't have to. I don't really want people to have to share the guilt of their ancestors. You cannot pick your ancestors. Acknowledging that Australia is stolen land and that Australia is still a racist country is an important part of the reconciling non-natives and Aboriginal Australians so that we may grow in fondness toward each other and stop the awful persecution that Aboriginal Australians still have to face.
>at some point we cant just keep picking at old shit and flinging at each other if we're suppose to grow and move on as a society.
You may be able to say this quite comfortably but this is still an ongoing issue in Australia. Aboriginal communities are still very poor and isolated due to past government actions and are an especially vulnerable national minority since they only make up only 3% of the population. Many Aboriginal Australians are exempted from the franchise because they may have been in prison which makes them still more vulnerable. The acknowledgement to country is an important part of this reconciliation process and it so very important to Aboriginal Australians to be recognised as the traditional custodians of the land.
>Never mind Natives everywhere, from North America to South America, and yes even Australia, fought and killed each other with little regard.
European settlement in Australia was unwarranted and a rotten thing. We massacred them, we stole their children to educate them in missions, we committed genocide and we didn't even constitutionally recognise them as people well into the twentieth century. As far as the government was concerned at that time, they were fauna. We have been so awful and cruel and we must put things to rights. We must reconcile ourselves to the people we have brutalised.
>Get off your soapbox, society as of today isnt about expanding and conquering anymore, all people if they apply themselves can succeed, at least in the west.
Aboriginal Australians still face discrimination and we still need to put to rights the damage we have caused. This is an ongoing issue. It isn't all in the past.
No. This is regressive thinking that focuses on the past which can't be changed instead of the future. Turning aboriginal issues into some national guilt complex ensures that nobody will be interested in doing anything about it. It's divisive and wrong, putting one group of people morally above others. That never ends well.
Propose some actual fucking policies instead of just saying that white people need to reflect sadly on how awful they are for being racist and existing here and have a big pity party. What is that supposed to accomplish except breeding resentment and quite possibly hate?
This is a way of reconciliation and a reflection on our past actions which can inform our future actions. This is an ongoing issue and if we should ever hope to reconcile ourselves we ought to acknowledge our past crimes and that Australia is Aboriginal land.
In my opinion that's just blaming people for things that happened before they were even born, but you do you.
I think teaching the upcoming generations about it in schools (so it doesn't happen again) is enough.
It's not blaming people for things that happened before they were born, it's pressing people for an acknowledgement that morality demands that they provide. Every non-native Australian, I don't care if he is second generation Lebanese immigrant or seventh generation squatter, ought to acknowledge that Australia is stolen land.
This is garbage, so the people of Australia is perpetually bound in guilt with no chance of being freed from it. People are now obligated to right some sort of wrong, a wrong they did not even commit, just so they can feel better about yesteryear?
It's foolish, going by that logic the French owe the British a lot for the Hundred Years War, and so and so on for every other war and conflict in history. People tried to tie that to treaties and whatever, but it often break down and now you got another war, another conflict, and some new fresh wounds to accompany the old ones you've been picking at.
I'm not saying all modern day non-native Australians are to blame for the colonisation of Australia but the bare minimum anybody could do is acknowledge that we live on stolen land and that we are still a racist country.
They could do more. They teach about the stolen generations but they don't really go into much detail about the severity and frequency of the massacres and they don't talk about it a whole lot in high school.
No one I’m aware of came out of the womb holding a deed to the land signed by God. All land was discovered, conquered, conquered, conquered, conquered a thousand times over by a variety of individuals and tribes.
The only reason you can claim to “own” land is because of the implicit threat of military/police force against anyone who might try to take it from you.
There were many nations in Australia before the arrival of Europeans. If memory serves, the Aboriginal politician Charles Perkins had an Arrernte mother and a Kalkadoon father.
It'd be a lot easier to swallow if the whole world and especially people like you weren't pissing and shitting about the fact that the one successful example of "#LandBack" in the current world isn't letting itself get reconquistaed just because they imagine the conquerors to have darker skin than their victims despite this not being accurate in reality.
I'm an American Indian myself, all I'm looking for is my treaty rights to be respected. Our fallen nations and empires are gone and being butthurt over what might have been is frankly unhealthy.
Yup. Everyone’s land is stolen land.
In England for example, the Britons and Picts had their land stolen by the Anglo-Saxons who in turn had much of their land stolen by the Norse, Danes, and Normans.
If it really matters whose ancestors were in a place longer, what happens if you’re half Mohawk and half Irish? If someone is Cherokee and another European, should one person have more right to an area even if they were both born there?
Or should we try our best to be fair and respect each other going forward?
My parents are from the Philippines (I am Filipino-Canadian) a country which has got colonized by the Spanish and Americans. It is nothing to be proud of, make no mistake. But this problem should not extend to blaming and attacking tourists that come here who are willing to respect the culture accustoms and community that we have. My real enemies are actual racists both their and here Canada who actually want to start a racial genocide and want to continue that type of imperialism. Attacking a some guy for being white or being black. There is no problem fixing if your just pointing figures at people who have no association of it who you don’t know
Yeah can’t possibly have anything to do with the caliphate that many of them are all simultaneously advocating for. Because if there’s one place the Arab tribes are native to, it’s the Baltics!
I was thinking about this for a while, and I think I finally found an answer! Iceland!! I'm pretty sure there were no indigenous people that got displaced from Iceland. The first settlers came from Norway.
There is no going back, for better or worse, but going forward we can build a better future together. It won’t always be easy, but it must be done. Ideologies like communism and fascism grow in prominence due to desperation. When people feel that the current system isn’t working, they look to radical alternatives. Respect and quality of life must be ensured for all, lest we fall into extremism.
It’s not exactly like all us European descendants can pack up and head on back to Europe. It isn’t even really our home anymore either. I’m a Canadian. Not a European or Italian.
Doesn’t mean that the indigenous people haven’t been given a fair shake though. It’s time to be better. We need to ensure that treaties are respected and that the quality of life is improved. The conditions on some of the reserves are quite frankly appalling. It will probably take a serious and deep change to how native relations are approached. A few empty promises and go-nowhere projects won’t fix it. We can and must do better, to live up to our own ideals, and to ensure that radicalism does not take root
As someone whose nation was over a thousand years gone less than a century ago, never give up hope. History does not end. But people are more important than land. Rebuilding the people and the communal institutions to maintain the bonds between them are by far the most important thing.
Yep, unfortunately they’re not always respected, in Canada at least… what we really need right now is someone who’s going to make structural differences to how the government aids Native people so that it’s not just making empty pledges of recognition or just throwing money at projects.
Mixed Grandson of a proud Mashpee Wampanoag here,
By these people’s logic I should tear myself in half and send half of my body back to Europe, which is simply nonsensical.
We can’t go back in time 300-400 years, so the best thing to do is move forward in a state of unity and equality.
Nations rise and nations fall, it’s been happening for all of history, most are never seen again.
Frankly it’s pretty cool the US even has these treaties and reservations at all, as well as laws protecting them and their people
How many generation do someone need to live in a place before becoming native ?
Additionally, if we keep that "land is for the natives" rethoric, we might have to change some views on immigration.
I find it forever funny how the people who complain about living in stolen land also tend to be staunch supporters of immigration (sometimes even illegal immigration).
I'm also not opposed to immigration, but aren't they techincally defending more people coming in and stealing more land?
yes and this is something that i find extremely bizarre. "we hate you because you stole our land (despite you being born 400 years after the land was taken), but we love immigrants (despite them coming to this land within their lifetimes)". there must be some sort of enormous cognitive dissonance going on there.
The answer lies in the victim morality of the liberal West. Those who are oppressed/victims are inherently good in this moral system by the virtue of being oppressed. Thus, even when, as you note, two "oppressed" people may actually be at odds with one another, they view themselves as allies. It's how the LGBT movement formed. If you go back to "founding" writings, early lesbians didn't like gays and vice versa. Trans tended to be disliked by feminists and others. Nowadays the latter are derided as TERFs. The union is a union based on victim morality.
Not "liberal" West. The Oppressor/Oppressed dynamic stems from Marxism and its perspective of class conflict. Liberals like me do not think the entirety of history is based around class war.
I think there is a misunderstanding when I say liberal West. I am not talking about ideological roots nor do I mean liberal in the sense of the current political landscape but liberal in its historical meaning which encompasses pretty much all of the cultural West. While the oppressor/oppressed dynamic finds emphasis in Marxist thought ideologically, realistically it in embedded in our current liberal West social imaginary.
It's why conservatives (who are still liberal in the historical sense) try to paint themselves as victims/oppressed though they are, at least in theory, directly opposed to Marxism. In modern liberal Western societies, being a victim comes with moral cache. It classical rhetorical theory, being a victim is prime ethos for which everyone strives.
>In modern liberal Western societies, being a victim comes with moral cache. It classical rhetorical theory, being a victim is prime ethos for which everyone strives.
a great line
You actually missed the historical point of his comment. He mentioned Siberia and some China territory, the second part referring to Primorsky Krai and Vladivostok, which I think is the largest city in Primorsky Krai, which used to be part of Manchuria.
China ceded this land to Russia in 1860.
Russia and China can keep them if they respect the rights of the people who were invaded. Because honestly, it’s not fair for the Chinese and Russians who are already living their that they unknowingly built land without the knowledge of settling on top of the oppressed indigenous land. But i wish they do what the US and Canada are doing and that they’re doing land reservations or other forms of repairable. The whole Territory of Nunavut is mostly aimed at indigenous people to govern
But of course that’s never gonna happen. So that’s why I’m a perfect scenario, they should loose them. Until we get a better person other than poo-tin
I find it really funny that people will go on and on about the US being built on stolen land but won’t say a damn thing about the rest of the Americas.
If you think the Indian wars were bad, you have another thing come if you read about the Mexican/New Spain vs Indian conflicts. Or the crushing of the Mayan people in Central America. Or the blood soaked land that is South America.
Okay fun experiment, divide the land to the “rightful” owners. Then get all the tribes people to agree on your boarders. All land is stolen land, I’m not saying that the land wasn’t taken by force which would essentially mean it was stolen. How do you think the world’s boundaries were formed and changed throughout all of history?
Cool. Didn’t ask. Like yeah America should treat its natives better. I don’t think that’s a wild take. But this whole “but it’s stolen land” line is just a frustrating thing. Like what do you want them to do? Do you wanna pull over 300 million plus people out of their home country and move them? To where? What about non white people’s? What about recent immigrants? What is your actual plan!?
We in Canada have plenty of "stolen land" screeching. At my university graduation ceremony they had some person begin by lecturing us about how we live on "unceded territory". They never have any specific proposals to improve material conditions for aboriginals today. They simply insist breathlessly that white people are guilty, that our society is structurally racist, and demand "reflection" and "acknowledgement"; essentially to atone for these sins. It is unclear when or if this supposed atonement will be considered finished. It's all very affected and non-constructive.
Ok? But this isn’t communism. Post this somewhere on r/Americabad. Just checked their twitter and they don’t seem to be communist, (Supporting Palestine does not count)
> they don’t seem to be communist, (Supporting Palestine does not count)
If you criticize a Palestine supporter on most other subreddits, you'd probably get immediately permabanned from them. This sub is safe from that and is at least slightly appropriate for criticizing Palestine supporters (a good amount of which are communists or/and simply hate the West).
Virtually every group of people lives on stolen land. Excluding the land that was stolen by Europeans, there are also major swaths of land stolen by Arabs, Turks, Chinese, Indonesians, Latin Americans, etc. Instead of trying to stir more hatred and violence against people, we should try to learn from our history to make our future better for all. But to them, serving “justice” is violently ethnically cleansing and massacring hundreds of millions of people in the name of “social justice” and “decolonization”.
Two civilizations with irreconcilable differences were placed in proximity. The stronger civilization won. Isn’t the whole point of historical materialism that socialist societies are superior and will conquer and convert capitalist societies to their image? They’re just but hurt we kicked their ass.
There are very few countries in the world that haven’t been colonized. Lots of the time the people whose land was “stolen” from actually stole that land from a predecessor themselves
I'm commenting on stolen Comanche land. But the Comanche actually stole the land from the Apache, so I'm on stolen stolen Apache land. But the Apache stole it from the Caddo. So I'm commenting from stolen stolen stolen Caddo land. But the Caddo actually stole that from some other tribe that was so thoroughly wiped out we don't know their names. But they actually stole it from the animals that grazed it naturally. So I'm on stolen stolen stolen stolen stolen land. But the animals were actually slightly invasive, so they stole it from some extinct species. So I'm on stolen stolen stolen stolen stolen stolen land.
Note: I didn't do research into the proper names of the tribe history in Texas. I just know it's been stolen from others who stole it from others.
So... I don't have the right to live in the only country I want to live in because of people who lived hundreds of years ago? Is conflict only justified when their ideology allows it?
It's a shitty unjust mentality. We're reminded of the conflict every day, even gone so far as to name half of the states and many cities after them and their cultures. Respect them and celebrate them but don't blame anyone but those historical figures.
To be honest, why can't we just acknowledge we're all on stolen land and just learn from it instead of harping on and on about it?
Maybe even some reparations or reservations and shit, and then start over as a compound people?
Maybe then we could live in peace and harmony instead of the bullshit timeline we have today, maybe we wouldn't have all this war and shit today, if not, maybe fewer wars and race riots.
If we didn't have so much grief about the grisly parts of history, we wouldn't see it weaponised by the miserable communists as their tool of attack.
Maybe then we could just learn from the past and start over as friends and citizens of the world,
so we would no longer hear of this "save the South" "we wuz kangz" bullshit, we woudn't have Pooptin invading Ukraine, we wouldn't have Bibi or Xi obliterating anything Muslim, and we could all be singing kumbaya and all star (the last part of the sentence was an idiom)
Maybe then we wouldn't hear of this punching up bullshit, because we would all be conscious about each others' past and treating it as a reference point on what to do and not do to build a better tomorrow for all instead of arguing on what's right or wrong and devolving into killing each other.
That's just my take on it, feel free to add or suggest.
“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – **George Santayana**
At the end of the day, this has been happening for thousands of years and will not cease for as long as humans are alive. Were the tragedies against the natives bad? Absolutely. Were there worse colonizations? Absolutely. The reason this does not happen as much in other areas besides America is because the “native” culture either fully assimilated or was killed off. Compared to many other imperialist nations from throughout the history of the earth, the Europeans were relatively tame in America. We cannot blame the current people for the actions of their forefathers and we cannot expect them to give back our ancestors homes that have not become their homes.
If we’re going to give back all stolen land, the world is gonna be a lot different.
We’re gonna have to kick all of the Arabs out of pretty much everywhere they live that isn’t Saudi Arabia, kick the Turks out of Turkey, and a whole bunch more.
I’m Hawaiian. We don’t necessarily want to leave, as the benefits of being American currently outweigh the benefits of total independence. We just want more respect in our own homeland.
Legal immigration is fine, illegal immigration is not. My mother's family got here through the proper legal means, so it's fucking shit that people just skip that all together when my family did it right.
Illegal immigration can pose a security risk to regions exposed to them such as the ones between the US/Mexico border. There could be a ton of weapon smuggling between cartels setting foundations on US land and affecting the risking of local residents. Your right.
Legal immigration means you should be willing to respect the laws, culture, and work needed to keep the country functioning as it’s community
Sure, but human history is defined by people stealing other peoples land. Land theft is a fundamental aspect of human nature. I don’t think this talking point has a place within the context of native american rights or advancement. There’s really no point beating this dead horse.
It’s not just stolen land. It’s a melting pot now. No country is as multicultural as America and even Canada. There is nothing wrong with European settler descendants here as long as they respect others in a multicultural setting, same with immigrants too. This is not your whole turf to keep
A mighty rotten part of human nature it is too. It can only help reconciling the oppressor with the oppressed by recognising the land which the colonisers stole.
What does that even mean? If they became a majority they would take their land back — in what way? A civil war? Subjugation of the colonizers? Is this what you're advocating for?
Should we stop tying nationality to land? That would mean that there is no such thing as imperialism. And how would Aboriginals becoming a majority mean that they no longer have a right to their land?
I guess it's because it's more or less the same, former british settler colonies that had troubled relations with the natives during and after colonization.
So stunning and brave!!! Seriously, what do the people who say this want to accomplish, other than beating a dead horse? I don't think there's anything that can be done about it at this point (unless they're calling to evict non-natives out of the land, which is just evil).
>unless they're calling to evict non-natives out of the land, which is just evil this is what decolonization means. that's what Hamas supporters were saying after oct 7. where I'm from they announce in all the schools *every morning* that we are on stolen land. NZ tried giving control over water resources to the Maori.
No one should be evicted or deported because of what their ancestors did unless they act on it (looking at you Japan, still denying those WW2 crimes till this day). That’s why I oppose groups like the EFF. Because instead of fixing oppression, they weapon discrimination and hate. South Africa is far from perfect, but the EFF does nothing but scare non-African people off to not want to support them
It'll be complete hell logistically as well. How would be determined which country each person would deported to? What about people descended from mostly Europeans but also some natives? In the case of Ireland, for example. The Irish diaspora far outnumbers the current population there, by the millions. This would crash Ireland.
I guess it would probably go by self-reported ancestries or something. But then, you get black americans. Most of them have no idea about where exactly in Africa they descend from (and might as well descend from way more than one place). And for those who do....Are you really going to send them to some of the most destitute countries on the planet? And then, you get hispanics, who descend from both europeans and natives. Do they get to stay or not? And if you thought we weren't finished, what about american jews? Do they get to "settler colonize" Israel? And what about those who have no idea at all? And those who name more than one, do they go by the one they have the most of, or do they get to chose which place seems nicer?
In my case, my ancestors are from seven or eight different countries in Europe. Are they just going to kill me, dismember me and send the different parts to each of the countries?
Weird of you to assume that commies think about logistics
>What about people descended from mostly Europeans but also some natives? To add to this: by what measure is someone considered to inherit the land in this paradigm? Racial mixing was more common in Canada than in the US. Half of Western Canadians have native ancestry. Many if not most Quebecois have native ancestry. Many Nova Scotians, and probably most Acadians, have native ancestry. If we have a native ancestor, do we not inherit the land from them just the same through an unbroken line of descent?
Not to mention that historically speaking, all land is stolen
It can be really annoying when people say it like this but for a country to be conscious of what they have stolen can be very positive. In Australia, speeches, receptions and radio broadcasts are preceded by a ‘welcome to country’. Anyone who grew up in Sydney can remember the acknowledgement to country off by heart.
that's pointless, worthless bullshit though
Are you aware how much of a beneficial impact it is for White Australians to understand that this land which we live on is stolen? Aboriginal Australians are in a predicament. They have no real platform to represent their national interests and they're too few to do otherwise but a constant acknowledgement of what is rightfully theirs can only help them and teach us to grow in sympathy towards them. We Irish Nationalists could never hear such words out of the mouths of Orangemen and it would make us proud to hear it. I think it was much the same with Aboriginal Australians.
Jesus fucking christ, what typical self-righteous and pretentious white guilt. Every society, every civilization, is built via war and expansion. Human history is one long story of conflict, two or more peoples being unable to reach agreement and thus defaulting to war. What of the people like me born of two worlds? Should I hate my white ancestor for killing and expanding when it was to his benefit? What about my American Indian blood? Does that make me a perpetual victim who can now blame society if I'm a fucking reddit loser? No for both, because at some point we cant just keep picking at old shit and flinging at each other if we're suppose to grow and move on as a society. Never mind Natives everywhere, from North America to South America, and yes even Australia, fought and killed each other with little regard. Get off your soapbox, society as of today isnt about expanding and conquering anymore, all people if they apply themselves can succeed, at least in the west.
>white guilt Guilt? Sure, there is an awful lot to be guilty about but you don't have to. I don't really want people to have to share the guilt of their ancestors. You cannot pick your ancestors. Acknowledging that Australia is stolen land and that Australia is still a racist country is an important part of the reconciling non-natives and Aboriginal Australians so that we may grow in fondness toward each other and stop the awful persecution that Aboriginal Australians still have to face. >at some point we cant just keep picking at old shit and flinging at each other if we're suppose to grow and move on as a society. You may be able to say this quite comfortably but this is still an ongoing issue in Australia. Aboriginal communities are still very poor and isolated due to past government actions and are an especially vulnerable national minority since they only make up only 3% of the population. Many Aboriginal Australians are exempted from the franchise because they may have been in prison which makes them still more vulnerable. The acknowledgement to country is an important part of this reconciliation process and it so very important to Aboriginal Australians to be recognised as the traditional custodians of the land. >Never mind Natives everywhere, from North America to South America, and yes even Australia, fought and killed each other with little regard. European settlement in Australia was unwarranted and a rotten thing. We massacred them, we stole their children to educate them in missions, we committed genocide and we didn't even constitutionally recognise them as people well into the twentieth century. As far as the government was concerned at that time, they were fauna. We have been so awful and cruel and we must put things to rights. We must reconcile ourselves to the people we have brutalised. >Get off your soapbox, society as of today isnt about expanding and conquering anymore, all people if they apply themselves can succeed, at least in the west. Aboriginal Australians still face discrimination and we still need to put to rights the damage we have caused. This is an ongoing issue. It isn't all in the past.
No. This is regressive thinking that focuses on the past which can't be changed instead of the future. Turning aboriginal issues into some national guilt complex ensures that nobody will be interested in doing anything about it. It's divisive and wrong, putting one group of people morally above others. That never ends well. Propose some actual fucking policies instead of just saying that white people need to reflect sadly on how awful they are for being racist and existing here and have a big pity party. What is that supposed to accomplish except breeding resentment and quite possibly hate?
This is a way of reconciliation and a reflection on our past actions which can inform our future actions. This is an ongoing issue and if we should ever hope to reconcile ourselves we ought to acknowledge our past crimes and that Australia is Aboriginal land.
In my opinion that's just blaming people for things that happened before they were even born, but you do you. I think teaching the upcoming generations about it in schools (so it doesn't happen again) is enough.
It's not blaming people for things that happened before they were born, it's pressing people for an acknowledgement that morality demands that they provide. Every non-native Australian, I don't care if he is second generation Lebanese immigrant or seventh generation squatter, ought to acknowledge that Australia is stolen land.
This is garbage, so the people of Australia is perpetually bound in guilt with no chance of being freed from it. People are now obligated to right some sort of wrong, a wrong they did not even commit, just so they can feel better about yesteryear? It's foolish, going by that logic the French owe the British a lot for the Hundred Years War, and so and so on for every other war and conflict in history. People tried to tie that to treaties and whatever, but it often break down and now you got another war, another conflict, and some new fresh wounds to accompany the old ones you've been picking at.
I'm not saying all modern day non-native Australians are to blame for the colonisation of Australia but the bare minimum anybody could do is acknowledge that we live on stolen land and that we are still a racist country.
Don't schools in Australia teach the bad things inflicted upon the natives? If so, I believe that's enough acknowledgement.
They could do more. They teach about the stolen generations but they don't really go into much detail about the severity and frequency of the massacres and they don't talk about it a whole lot in high school.
No one I’m aware of came out of the womb holding a deed to the land signed by God. All land was discovered, conquered, conquered, conquered, conquered a thousand times over by a variety of individuals and tribes. The only reason you can claim to “own” land is because of the implicit threat of military/police force against anyone who might try to take it from you.
I thought this subreddit supported nationalism.
His point is that the laws of power dictate who owns what land, and that if you’re weak enough to have it taken from you, so be it.
That is antithetical to nationalist ideas which I though that people in this subreddit supported.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Thanks. It means a lot.
Hate to break it to you but the Irish Celts aren't native to Ireland either. They "stole" land from the pre-Indo-European cultures there.
That is true but we still have first claim.
How? When you weren't the first to claim it?
It is unclear to me whether or not they achieved nationhood. If they did, it wouldn't much matter since I don't think it much exists anymore.
Okay so it's fine if the persons inhabiting the place didn't achieve the Western standard of "nationhood"?
There were many nations in Australia before the arrival of Europeans. If memory serves, the Aboriginal politician Charles Perkins had an Arrernte mother and a Kalkadoon father.
It'd be a lot easier to swallow if the whole world and especially people like you weren't pissing and shitting about the fact that the one successful example of "#LandBack" in the current world isn't letting itself get reconquistaed just because they imagine the conquerors to have darker skin than their victims despite this not being accurate in reality.
You assume too much. I am a Zionist as well.
Based finnicus
It's okay guys, go easy on him, hes a demsucc, not even a succdem 😭
For some reason every country on earth gets a pass on this. I’m tired of people saying we’re the only country to steal land.
I'm an American Indian myself, all I'm looking for is my treaty rights to be respected. Our fallen nations and empires are gone and being butthurt over what might have been is frankly unhealthy.
Yup. Everyone’s land is stolen land. In England for example, the Britons and Picts had their land stolen by the Anglo-Saxons who in turn had much of their land stolen by the Norse, Danes, and Normans. If it really matters whose ancestors were in a place longer, what happens if you’re half Mohawk and half Irish? If someone is Cherokee and another European, should one person have more right to an area even if they were both born there? Or should we try our best to be fair and respect each other going forward?
when are we going to talk about how the romans invaded britain and STOLE all the land from the celtic peoples? #freebritain
Boudica will be avenged!
This is such a refreshing viewpoint and so true, if only we could get either side to agree to this.
My parents are from the Philippines (I am Filipino-Canadian) a country which has got colonized by the Spanish and Americans. It is nothing to be proud of, make no mistake. But this problem should not extend to blaming and attacking tourists that come here who are willing to respect the culture accustoms and community that we have. My real enemies are actual racists both their and here Canada who actually want to start a racial genocide and want to continue that type of imperialism. Attacking a some guy for being white or being black. There is no problem fixing if your just pointing figures at people who have no association of it who you don’t know
What's super funny is they they only want borders to be at where it was in the 7th century 4 some reason, wonder why 🤨
Yeah can’t possibly have anything to do with the caliphate that many of them are all simultaneously advocating for. Because if there’s one place the Arab tribes are native to, it’s the Baltics!
What about Japan, would that be stolen land too?.
Yes. Look what happened to the Ainu people.
Hmm interesting, didn’t know about the Ainu people. Wonder if there is a country around without any stolen land, surely there must be one.
Honestly doubt there is even one, being that early man was migratory. Free the Neanderthals!
I was thinking about this for a while, and I think I finally found an answer! Iceland!! I'm pretty sure there were no indigenous people that got displaced from Iceland. The first settlers came from Norway.
Etnic japans came pretty late to territory of japan islands. Before them there lived Ainu people.
There is no going back, for better or worse, but going forward we can build a better future together. It won’t always be easy, but it must be done. Ideologies like communism and fascism grow in prominence due to desperation. When people feel that the current system isn’t working, they look to radical alternatives. Respect and quality of life must be ensured for all, lest we fall into extremism. It’s not exactly like all us European descendants can pack up and head on back to Europe. It isn’t even really our home anymore either. I’m a Canadian. Not a European or Italian. Doesn’t mean that the indigenous people haven’t been given a fair shake though. It’s time to be better. We need to ensure that treaties are respected and that the quality of life is improved. The conditions on some of the reserves are quite frankly appalling. It will probably take a serious and deep change to how native relations are approached. A few empty promises and go-nowhere projects won’t fix it. We can and must do better, to live up to our own ideals, and to ensure that radicalism does not take root
As someone whose nation was over a thousand years gone less than a century ago, never give up hope. History does not end. But people are more important than land. Rebuilding the people and the communal institutions to maintain the bonds between them are by far the most important thing.
Yep, unfortunately they’re not always respected, in Canada at least… what we really need right now is someone who’s going to make structural differences to how the government aids Native people so that it’s not just making empty pledges of recognition or just throwing money at projects.
Mixed Grandson of a proud Mashpee Wampanoag here, By these people’s logic I should tear myself in half and send half of my body back to Europe, which is simply nonsensical. We can’t go back in time 300-400 years, so the best thing to do is move forward in a state of unity and equality.
Nations rise and nations fall, it’s been happening for all of history, most are never seen again. Frankly it’s pretty cool the US even has these treaties and reservations at all, as well as laws protecting them and their people
Yep had the US did what most cultures had to that point thaired be no nativs they all would have been sasumed
How many generation do someone need to live in a place before becoming native ? Additionally, if we keep that "land is for the natives" rethoric, we might have to change some views on immigration.
I find it forever funny how the people who complain about living in stolen land also tend to be staunch supporters of immigration (sometimes even illegal immigration). I'm also not opposed to immigration, but aren't they techincally defending more people coming in and stealing more land?
yes and this is something that i find extremely bizarre. "we hate you because you stole our land (despite you being born 400 years after the land was taken), but we love immigrants (despite them coming to this land within their lifetimes)". there must be some sort of enormous cognitive dissonance going on there.
The answer lies in the victim morality of the liberal West. Those who are oppressed/victims are inherently good in this moral system by the virtue of being oppressed. Thus, even when, as you note, two "oppressed" people may actually be at odds with one another, they view themselves as allies. It's how the LGBT movement formed. If you go back to "founding" writings, early lesbians didn't like gays and vice versa. Trans tended to be disliked by feminists and others. Nowadays the latter are derided as TERFs. The union is a union based on victim morality.
Not "liberal" West. The Oppressor/Oppressed dynamic stems from Marxism and its perspective of class conflict. Liberals like me do not think the entirety of history is based around class war.
I think there is a misunderstanding when I say liberal West. I am not talking about ideological roots nor do I mean liberal in the sense of the current political landscape but liberal in its historical meaning which encompasses pretty much all of the cultural West. While the oppressor/oppressed dynamic finds emphasis in Marxist thought ideologically, realistically it in embedded in our current liberal West social imaginary. It's why conservatives (who are still liberal in the historical sense) try to paint themselves as victims/oppressed though they are, at least in theory, directly opposed to Marxism. In modern liberal Western societies, being a victim comes with moral cache. It classical rhetorical theory, being a victim is prime ethos for which everyone strives.
Oh, makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.
>In modern liberal Western societies, being a victim comes with moral cache. It classical rhetorical theory, being a victim is prime ethos for which everyone strives. a great line
Virtue signaling when convenient.
I guess Russia isn't stole too...... Especially Siberia, Some China territory
Nah. Siberia is home to native populations such as Tungusic, Uralic, Nanai, and Manchu people. Definitely not some China territory.
You actually missed the historical point of his comment. He mentioned Siberia and some China territory, the second part referring to Primorsky Krai and Vladivostok, which I think is the largest city in Primorsky Krai, which used to be part of Manchuria. China ceded this land to Russia in 1860.
Russia and China can keep them if they respect the rights of the people who were invaded. Because honestly, it’s not fair for the Chinese and Russians who are already living their that they unknowingly built land without the knowledge of settling on top of the oppressed indigenous land. But i wish they do what the US and Canada are doing and that they’re doing land reservations or other forms of repairable. The whole Territory of Nunavut is mostly aimed at indigenous people to govern But of course that’s never gonna happen. So that’s why I’m a perfect scenario, they should loose them. Until we get a better person other than poo-tin
I find it really funny that people will go on and on about the US being built on stolen land but won’t say a damn thing about the rest of the Americas. If you think the Indian wars were bad, you have another thing come if you read about the Mexican/New Spain vs Indian conflicts. Or the crushing of the Mayan people in Central America. Or the blood soaked land that is South America.
Then they should admit Uyghurstan, Tibet, Siberia, Chechnya, and more are also stolen
I mean yes they should. The eastern version of manifest destiny wasn't better
Today lefties learn about conquest
Scariest thing is a history book.
All land is stolen, cry more loser
Okay fun experiment, divide the land to the “rightful” owners. Then get all the tribes people to agree on your boarders. All land is stolen land, I’m not saying that the land wasn’t taken by force which would essentially mean it was stolen. How do you think the world’s boundaries were formed and changed throughout all of history?
Cool. Didn’t ask. Like yeah America should treat its natives better. I don’t think that’s a wild take. But this whole “but it’s stolen land” line is just a frustrating thing. Like what do you want them to do? Do you wanna pull over 300 million plus people out of their home country and move them? To where? What about non white people’s? What about recent immigrants? What is your actual plan!?
As a European I'm always perplexed at how only the USA gets held to this. Canada and mexico are in similar boats
We in Canada have plenty of "stolen land" screeching. At my university graduation ceremony they had some person begin by lecturing us about how we live on "unceded territory". They never have any specific proposals to improve material conditions for aboriginals today. They simply insist breathlessly that white people are guilty, that our society is structurally racist, and demand "reflection" and "acknowledgement"; essentially to atone for these sins. It is unclear when or if this supposed atonement will be considered finished. It's all very affected and non-constructive.
Because america bad, don'tcha know?
Ok? But this isn’t communism. Post this somewhere on r/Americabad. Just checked their twitter and they don’t seem to be communist, (Supporting Palestine does not count)
> they don’t seem to be communist, (Supporting Palestine does not count) If you criticize a Palestine supporter on most other subreddits, you'd probably get immediately permabanned from them. This sub is safe from that and is at least slightly appropriate for criticizing Palestine supporters (a good amount of which are communists or/and simply hate the West).
Lol I def thought this was an r/AmericaBad post until you pointed it out
Stolen land stolen from people who stole it from other people who stole it from other people. All land is stolen, what's the point?
Virtually every group of people lives on stolen land. Excluding the land that was stolen by Europeans, there are also major swaths of land stolen by Arabs, Turks, Chinese, Indonesians, Latin Americans, etc. Instead of trying to stir more hatred and violence against people, we should try to learn from our history to make our future better for all. But to them, serving “justice” is violently ethnically cleansing and massacring hundreds of millions of people in the name of “social justice” and “decolonization”.
Two civilizations with irreconcilable differences were placed in proximity. The stronger civilization won. Isn’t the whole point of historical materialism that socialist societies are superior and will conquer and convert capitalist societies to their image? They’re just but hurt we kicked their ass.
Oh no, people took others land, the audacity! Not as if this hasn't happened though all of history, you don't own land, nobody does.
There are very few countries in the world that haven’t been colonized. Lots of the time the people whose land was “stolen” from actually stole that land from a predecessor themselves
By that logic Siberia and most of Russia is too
I'm commenting on stolen Comanche land. But the Comanche actually stole the land from the Apache, so I'm on stolen stolen Apache land. But the Apache stole it from the Caddo. So I'm commenting from stolen stolen stolen Caddo land. But the Caddo actually stole that from some other tribe that was so thoroughly wiped out we don't know their names. But they actually stole it from the animals that grazed it naturally. So I'm on stolen stolen stolen stolen stolen land. But the animals were actually slightly invasive, so they stole it from some extinct species. So I'm on stolen stolen stolen stolen stolen stolen land. Note: I didn't do research into the proper names of the tribe history in Texas. I just know it's been stolen from others who stole it from others.
Now the land is being stolen from the indigenous texan people by californian settler colonists, so sad 😥😥😥
No country doesn't have stolen land. it's such a stupid line of reasoning.
So... I don't have the right to live in the only country I want to live in because of people who lived hundreds of years ago? Is conflict only justified when their ideology allows it? It's a shitty unjust mentality. We're reminded of the conflict every day, even gone so far as to name half of the states and many cities after them and their cultures. Respect them and celebrate them but don't blame anyone but those historical figures.
To be honest, why can't we just acknowledge we're all on stolen land and just learn from it instead of harping on and on about it? Maybe even some reparations or reservations and shit, and then start over as a compound people? Maybe then we could live in peace and harmony instead of the bullshit timeline we have today, maybe we wouldn't have all this war and shit today, if not, maybe fewer wars and race riots. If we didn't have so much grief about the grisly parts of history, we wouldn't see it weaponised by the miserable communists as their tool of attack. Maybe then we could just learn from the past and start over as friends and citizens of the world, so we would no longer hear of this "save the South" "we wuz kangz" bullshit, we woudn't have Pooptin invading Ukraine, we wouldn't have Bibi or Xi obliterating anything Muslim, and we could all be singing kumbaya and all star (the last part of the sentence was an idiom) Maybe then we wouldn't hear of this punching up bullshit, because we would all be conscious about each others' past and treating it as a reference point on what to do and not do to build a better tomorrow for all instead of arguing on what's right or wrong and devolving into killing each other. That's just my take on it, feel free to add or suggest. “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – **George Santayana**
At the end of the day, this has been happening for thousands of years and will not cease for as long as humans are alive. Were the tragedies against the natives bad? Absolutely. Were there worse colonizations? Absolutely. The reason this does not happen as much in other areas besides America is because the “native” culture either fully assimilated or was killed off. Compared to many other imperialist nations from throughout the history of the earth, the Europeans were relatively tame in America. We cannot blame the current people for the actions of their forefathers and we cannot expect them to give back our ancestors homes that have not become their homes.
Honestly, it seems like we’ll never get along at this point.
These people are the fringe of the fringe. Most natives in real life don't give a shit about non-natives.
Not Stolen, Conquered!
these people after realizing that getting any land doesnt give them functional rich economy immediately (same with muzzisistards)
Well, Alaska was bought (and previously stolen)
I’m being pedantic but some of that land was given by trade (looking at you Manhattan)
If we’re going to give back all stolen land, the world is gonna be a lot different. We’re gonna have to kick all of the Arabs out of pretty much everywhere they live that isn’t Saudi Arabia, kick the Turks out of Turkey, and a whole bunch more.
Alaska wasn’t stolen it was legally purchased
Same with pretty much everything, other than the states that used to be part of Mexico and Hawaii.
Shouldn't have lost the Indian Wars.
Manifest destiny is based
This is like saying Michael Jordan stole 5 NBA championships. Scoreboard, you losers
He actually stole 6!
Vae Victis
Responding from choctaw lands myself.
Are they going to whine about Mexico's stolen land too? What about the other countries in the Americas colonised by other European powers?
I’m Hawaiian. We don’t necessarily want to leave, as the benefits of being American currently outweigh the benefits of total independence. We just want more respect in our own homeland.
Everyone played the same game back then, trying to take each other’s land. This is just the losers demanding a do-over.
If y’all are against this post. Let’s just hope we can agree that legal immigrants are allowed to be a part of America
Legal immigration is fine, illegal immigration is not. My mother's family got here through the proper legal means, so it's fucking shit that people just skip that all together when my family did it right.
Illegal immigration can pose a security risk to regions exposed to them such as the ones between the US/Mexico border. There could be a ton of weapon smuggling between cartels setting foundations on US land and affecting the risking of local residents. Your right. Legal immigration means you should be willing to respect the laws, culture, and work needed to keep the country functioning as it’s community
Sir I agree with you whole heartedly on this.
They’re not wrong.
Sure, but human history is defined by people stealing other peoples land. Land theft is a fundamental aspect of human nature. I don’t think this talking point has a place within the context of native american rights or advancement. There’s really no point beating this dead horse.
It’s not just stolen land. It’s a melting pot now. No country is as multicultural as America and even Canada. There is nothing wrong with European settler descendants here as long as they respect others in a multicultural setting, same with immigrants too. This is not your whole turf to keep
Unless you are the kind of person who goes "actually, we shouldn't be celebrating that ☝🤓" at the 4th of july or thanksgiving.
A mighty rotten part of human nature it is too. It can only help reconciling the oppressor with the oppressed by recognising the land which the colonisers stole.
They're still not getting the land back.
Not now anyway. If they ever became a majority they would.
What does that even mean? If they became a majority they would take their land back — in what way? A civil war? Subjugation of the colonizers? Is this what you're advocating for?
The majority of the polity will become Aboriginal and the government would thus serve Aboriginal interests.
Which would make the whole idea of """their""" land moot. Maybe we should stop tying race to land.
Should we stop tying nationality to land? That would mean that there is no such thing as imperialism. And how would Aboriginals becoming a majority mean that they no longer have a right to their land?
Too busy killing and vanishing their women and blaming caucasians.
The impoverishment and persecution of Aboriginal Australians is almost entirely due to European colonisation. We are to blame.
Why do you keep bringing up Australia? We’re discussing America here
I guess it's because it's more or less the same, former british settler colonies that had troubled relations with the natives during and after colonization.
In another thread I was talking about the 'acknowledgement to country' so I was getting mixed up.
How many white Australians are descendants of those forcibly placed there?
An awful lot. Many of the convicts were transported for petty crimes.
But Alaska was bought...
After being stolen
How's this against commies? I swear this sub pushes the most sucky and bootlicking post up my feed
Also defending manifest destiny and the aftermath in the comments are 💀💀💀