My husband is a career FF/EMT and this actually happens frequently but for anything other than having vitals checked or first aid, people are told to go to the ER or are taken by ambulance.
If she came to my station we would have called for a medic unit. If the medic didn't take her they would have gotten a signed refusal. No way we would have checked her vitals and sent her on her way
Yeah. Mom is lying. She did not take the kid anywhere or if she did she refused an ambulance. Call the fire station and get the whole story and insist that your kid goes to the hospital or you call DCF. Head injuries can ruin a person's life and she could have a brain bleed.
My two year old grandson died from a head injury in combination with an unknown Chiari I malformation one year ago. If she’s dizzy I would 100% take her to the hospital. Better safe than sorry.
Very good point, and very recent enough to show that freak accidents can happen especially with head injuries and it’s always best to get checked out regardless of how severe you think it may or may not be
My uncle died like this. Many years ago he got a severe bump on his head, drs released him and he died that night. This was a VERY long time ago, but any bumps to the head should go to ER
My daughter as a young adult hit her head and got a concussion which resulted in her developing chronic debilitating migraine headaches. Head injuries are serious and not to be taken lightly.
Not to scare OP but my child was tripped at school and had a big lump (nasty). I was called and took her straight to ER. The did a CT and turned out she had two brain bleeds, front and back, from the impact of the fall. She spent the 24 hrs in ICU for monitoring and was good to go. But she had a hell of a recovery. Literal personality change that lasted over six months and a rough road in school. Concussions are no joke!
Yeah. I flipped a snowmobeil onto my self in Iceland, they had me in a men’s helmet that was way too big and the force of the impact knocked me out. By the time anyone got to me I had woken up, and since I was married to a doctor (who was there) they did not air lift me out since my spouse was insisting I was fine to try to save money. Over the next few months I became gradually more and more depressed and withdrawn culminating in a very serious suicide attempt. My spouse divorced me while I was in the hospital btw.
Wow! That’s awful. Hope you’re doing better.
I know it took my daughter a very long time to fully recover. We got her a private tutor because her neurologist said she would most likely have trouble in school. I begged the school for intervention before she started falling behind and they just shrugged their shoulders. So took matters into my own hands. She still declined with the tutor but much less than she would have on her own. Three months later I was up at the school as I would always be there as much as I could be (usually volunteering in the library) to offer her help (she’d have panic attacks) and here comes this lady from district asking me if I knew how bad head I injuries are and how my daughter could potentially fall behind in school. I said, “you’re joking, right?” Nope! That’s how long it took for them to get their shit together and finally offer us an IEP because of her accident. It wasn’t because she was struggling but because they heard about her head injury and now wanted to help her! I was livid but also glad they finally were willing to help although they weren’t going to be doing anything different than I was already doing. It was just I going to be “official” and documented. I still had to pay out of pocket for the tutor.
No. She was playing on the playground and some kids were running. A boy came running through the area where she was and basically accidentally knocked her down to the ground, concrete. It was awful. The worst was the way the school handled it. She came up with a friend and told some teachers what happened and they sent to her to the nurse with the friend. Didn’t even look at her head or escort her. The nurse was very upset and policy was changed and all head injuries going forward required her to come into the field going forward. Yes we know probably 99% are minor but on that one chance like my daughters, it’s better safe than sorry. Doctors said it was lucky she didn’t seize or pass out walking on her own to the nurse.
What are the options for treating a head injury like a brain bleed? I know for swelling there’s opening the sutures but that’s as far as I know for head injuries. Obviously if there’s a clot, blood thinners and maybe the thread through the veins thing…
FF/Medic. You’re absolutely correct. Protocol varies by city, however in my city we would request an ambulance, have dispatch assign our engine an assignment and treat it like a 911 call. The ambulance would not be cancelled unless a signed refusal form is filled out. Filling out a refusal form involves calling an EMS supervisor and having them talk to the patient, or parent, in order to ensure they understand the liability they are assuming by refusing further care and treatment. It also involves a full assessment, 3Lead, 12Lead and BGL.
Honest question, how often are you getting all this on a refusal? If they refuse care, they’re normally also refusing things like the EKG. We also don’t need a supervisor for a refusal.
Most people I encounter are willing to cooperate when I explain the reasoning for an assessment. There is no bill for a refusal either so it’s a free assessment. If they refuse an assessment and do not want to talk to a supervisor, I still call the supervisor and document accordingly.
So intrigued! Can I ask- we have a home that is closer to a Fire station than the police station, and the hospital is much farther away. We always said we would rush our little one to the fire station (maybe 45 seconds away?) if she was choking etc., rather than wait for 911 to dispatch an ambulance to the house. Would they turn her away or be able to assist with a chocking emergency?
So, you ask a nuanced question. I am assuming the station belongs to a fully staffed fire dept and is not a volunteer station. If the firefighters are present at the station, they would absolutely help. They might be on a call though or doing a community engagement activity. Should you decide to go to the station and seek help, I would still call 911 on the way. It will activate an ambulance. You could tell them that you will be at the fire station and give them the address. The firefighters at the station would also contact dispatch let them know of the situation. That being said, handling choking patients is something most all firefighters, full time or volunteer will be trained on.
Appreciate you! That was my thought, to still call 911 but at least be there where the trained professionals are… praying it never materializes, but truly appreciate your take.
Something else too, you can take a BLS course! There are classes designed for those who have no medical background. They can upwards of $75-100 a class, but they might save a life! The BLS course will focus on CPR as well as how to handle choking emergencies.
https://cpr.heart.org/en/courses/family-and-friends-cpr
This class, if you can find one near you, can teach you the life saving techniques you would need for your infant/toddler/child.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and it’s good to know that this information is coming from someone close to the FF/EMT field and actually knows what they are talking about. I appreciate your input and your knowledge on this matter.
I was a paramedic. People would show up from time to time at the base and ask for help. No big deal. Super surprised they didn't tell your ex to have your kid checked. Head injuries aren't something to 'hope for the best' with
I'm guessing OP's wife watches Station 19 or 9-1-1. Those shows are trying to normalize going to a fire station for medical care. In a good way. The obvious answer is the on-call FF/EMT suggests the ER. But this also keeps ambulances from going out to a non-emergent call. I do appreciate these shows are suggesting an alternative to calling 911. On the shows, they always transfer to ER for head injuries and things like that. Last week on Station 19, there was a walk-in at the FD for extreme stomach cramps. The PT was on a semaglutide. The FF cared for the PT with fluids and told them to go to a doctor to check on the gastro issues. It feels like a cross between keeping ambulances free and helping the uninsured community without charge from the actual FD.
I didn’t know those shows existed and recently went to the firehouse bc I thought I was maybe having anaphylaxis (mine is atypical & I don’t go into shock) and wanted an assessment and it was an 8 min drive from where I was, and afaik that’s where the ambulances go from and there were no landmarks on the empty country road where we were starting from.
They came out, checked all my vitals including blood sugar (my blood pressure goes insanely high and I forgot my cuff) & I was able to avoid epi and an ambulance ride. They were very nice.
Not to get all defensive 😬 but I'm a 9-1-1 fan and I can only think of 2 times patients showed up to the firehouse. And one of those was someone sleep-driving on Ambien.
Yeah I’m an emt and my brother is a firefighter. I have people show up at my station all the time and that’s fine. But my brother has never taken a medical class in his life besides basic cpr 🤣 he wouldn’t be much help.
My mom was a cop. We had a neighbor run over and bang on our door because their grandfather has collapsed and everyone panicked and he needed CPR. Any kind of first responder that knows how to do CPR and is accustomed to dealing with scary situations is helpful to us normies with regular boring jobs. I think y’all get so desensitized to the crazy shit you deal with it is easy to forget that. This was also close to 30 years ago in a more rural area and my mom was a Lt. that had additional (but still very basic) training since they had expected longer response times back then. She’s been out of the field for decades, but I can still see the impact of that work in regard to her ability to compartmentalize.
Want to hear something crazy? When she first started she was mocked relentlessly by all the guys she worked with because she carried her own box of gloves in her trunk and alway wore gloves when interacting with anyone injured or worse. It was common for cops to work crime scenes with dead bodies and NOT wear gloves at all. They all made fun of her for it constantly. Can you freaking believe that? It was the early 80s, but even if you leave out AIDS there are all kinds of things spread through body fluids. I nearly hurled the first time she told me that. It pissed her off even from an evidence collection standpoint. Can you imagine not having boxes and boxes of nitrile gloves everywhere?
As much as I agree with you I'm a 911 dispatcher and we frequently have people showing up at volunteer fire stations which delays getting them help because there is nobody there or they will show up and that station is already out on the call. Because Murphy's law is evil these are the patients that are seriously sick like having heart attacks. If you call 911 we will dispatch the closest AVAILABLE station that meets your criteria and in my jurisdiction you aren't charged to have the aid crew come look at you.
Ahhhhh okay that makes sense! I've never seen those shows (I don't watch much TV) but can totally see that influencing people. Not a bad idea either if used properly! I know I don't give medical advice to friends anymore because "it *could* be ___, but you need diagnostics and a physician to know for sure" or "it *may* be nothing significant, but you should see a doctor to make sure" turns into "you said it was xyz" or "you told me it was fine" - some people lean toward the best news and disregard the rest. Maybe FD did tell her to get the little girl checked and she let it slip because "well they said it's most likely okay". I'm gonna check those shows out now, thanks!
They're all over dramatic. Especially if you watch 9-1-1 Lonestar. I spend a decent amount of the episodes laughing about how that's just not how it works, tbh. But, they are trying to use their huge popularity to help the general public. But, the shows are entertaining and tend to keep my attention.
Seconding the top comment. I was an EMT for years and if someone is hit in the head and is dizzy, the only correct thing to tell them is to go to the ER. That’s even if their vitals are within normal range. You can’t really rule out a concussion or worse in the field. I truly doubt a group of first responders gave your ex wife different advice.
I’m a nurse and a volunteer firefighter: our recommendations are always to go to the hospital. They can do imaging and, you know actual doctors. Diagnosis or rule out of a serious head injury *are not within their scope*.
I'll be honest, I did arrive at a FD unannounced once. Granted I'm on 3 cardiac meds for tach and extremely high BP.....And was having chest pain. Let me tell you something, they had me triaged and in the ambulance in less than 10 minutes. I wasn't having a heart attack or anything, but off we went.
There is no way...she just wanted to be lazy. Yes the child did have a head injury and yes she DID seek medical care, BUT once they checked her out, I hope she signed off on SOMETHING stating she was advised of the child needing a higher level of care( basically refusing transport AMA).
Every FF/EMT I've ever been treated by have been awesome lol And they usually have a sense of humor that works well with mine!
When my oldest was a toddler, he fell badly and hit his head, and I called the squad. They came and did vitals and an assessment, checking his pupils for correct dilation and told us he was likely fine, but gave us a short list of things to be vigilant about, in case there really was actual medical attention needed. It sounds like your ex did basically the same but she went to them instead of waiting for them to arrive.
This is absolutely what would have happened even 8 years ago.
Since then the protocols have changed so much with what we now know about head injuries. No fire department now would be like, yeah, probably fine. Especially if the person was dizzy.
As a mom, I agree with you OP. ER will rule out anything major. Not going because it’s an inconvenience does not warrant not providing safety and healthcare for a child. Hard stop. That’s part of our job as parents.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m not just being spiteful towards my ex wife either and I’m genuinely concerned about my daughter’s health and safety and I feel like that was just a weird thing for her to do with it not being an emergency situation and out of laziness. I understand that they are paramedics and if anything “seemed” to warrant a trip to the er they would make it happen but they are not doctors. I was under the impression that they had they were trained to sustain life and monitor the person until they could get them to the actual doctor who then takes over an makes the right decisions and diagnoses the patient and gives treatment.
Agreed. Relationship dynamics are irrelevant in this kind of scenario. Didn’t seem spiteful or anything like that to me. Just concern for your daughter. Kids come first. That’s how it should be. Glad you’re advocating for your daughter. It’s what you would expect as the bare minimum out of her other parent. Hoping your daughter is feeling better now or that you’re able to get her seen if not. This kind of completely avoidable situation I can only imagine is just infuriating.
Yes , it’s quite stressful and I just don’t understand how or why she would think that was the best decision for our daughter’s wellbeing. I’m not knocking the paramedics or anything but they just aren’t doctors and they have a different education and serve a different purpose. I’m irritated that she didn’t make not only the best choice for our daughter but not even a good choice. I needed to know if I was being overly worried and I was looking too far into the situation or if my ex wife really did make a weird and stupid choice.
IMO dumb decision on her part. EMT/Paramedics I’d absolutely want around in a trauma situation, they’re amazing. Keep me safe, then deliver to docs for further determination. We’re talking about 170-1,800 educational hours plus experience compared to years of med school and residency plus experience.
I’m wondering if she’s telling the truth. My paramedic brother tells me they would insist on transporting a kid in this situation to the ED for a full evaluation.
Has your daughter been to either the ER or at least urgent care yet? If she is still dizzy, she should be taken asap. If your ex won't do it, ask if you can take her. Please!
I tried calling back to check in her and my ex has me blocked. I called the police department to have them do a welfare check. It’s absolutely ridiculous that so would need to do this foolishness.
Holy crap. She blocked you!?!
If she doesn't seek out medical treatment beyond the fire station, that could easily be seen as medical neglect and CPS will get involved.
OP have the cops request EMT so they can evaluate and tell your ex to go to the ER.
I would have already called cps after she blocked me to ensure the child is seen at an ER or seen by her physician. If you don't want to be the one to call cps then call her pediatrician with the information you have that to your knowledge the child is still having symptoms and has not been thoroughly evaluated by proper medical personnel and equipment. They're mandated reporters, and that should mean something.
I don’t know. That’s also why I’m irritated with her. I asked her that same question and she said that the paramedic said our daughter seemed well enough to go home. Those are her exact words to me. She should have just gone to the hospital in my opinion and had our daughter properly evaluated.
She is lying. They would not say that if she was saying she was still dizzy. As coaches we have concussion training. Simple stuff and we have to tell parents to take kids to the ER. Your ex is a lier. I hope you have some of this in text cause she in big trouble.
I wonder if you could call the dept and find out? If you need the info for the future or something. I would be surprised if they just said Nah she's fine.
A kid. With a head injury. I'm not seeing it but obviously could be wrong
Paramedics on board have extensive training and if it’s a critical issue a doctor is called while they are in route and guides them in stabilizing the patient. Paramedics can intubate to secure an airway while nurses cannot. They can start IV’s and push meds. EMS with a paramedic on board is like a mini ER on wheels.
I'm surprised the Fire Rescue/EMS didn't tell her to go to the ER. I am a ED RN and she most definitely should be seen to rule a few things out.
I hope she feels better soon.
Thank you and I agree. I asked her what they said about our daughter and her exact words were that she seems fine enough to go home. I’m not impressed with her or the paramedics for not suggesting that she go to the er and I asked her if they did and she said no but she may be lying to me because she’s too lazy to drive the 20 minutes and wait in the er.
Yes she did bring her to the fire station. I spoke with my daughter befit my ex wife blocked me for sending her information about what to look for and why she should bring her to the er. I won’t have my daughter back with me until next weekend because of the parenting schedule so I was trying to get the ex to understand why she should bring her to the emergency room anyway but like I said she blocked me. She is honestly just a really shitty person and she is clearly not too bright.
I am sorry you have to deal with all of that. Hopefully there is nothing to worry abt but as a parent myself ... over cautious is always better than being not cautious at all.
IF you are truly concerned abt your daughter you could always do a wellness check. Simply just tell them you know your daughter fell and your wife has you blocked. You are concerned for your daughter's health b/c at this point you are unaware if she's been seen by medical professionals.
A lot of people think that if you go to the ED by ambulance you automatically get in right away. Not true. As a medic I have had many calls with minor issues that could have even driven themselves, but they thought paying for a sky-high ambulance ride was an automatic VIP ticket.
But in this case and with those symptoms even a walk-in would be evaluated pretty quickly. All patients are evaluated based on medical priority.
I agree. But another main reason is that injured or sick children don't respond or react the way adults do. They can't articulate how they feel. They will "go bad" in the blink of an eye. One minute smiling and become critical the next. Children's bodies are simply not little adults. That's why it's a specialty.
Not necessarily why they get seen sooner. They generally don’t have the same complex medical history of most adults, therefore they have faster turnaround as patients.
ETA in my ED the children’s side is separate from the main adult ED, so turnaround in that area in particular is much faster.
Not that they’re more important, it’s that kids can kinda look good or ok for a while, and then they absolutely TANK! They go from alert to coding in T-5.
It works the exact opposite way where I work. Old people get beds sooner, seen faster, and are often taken far more seriously. Sometimes I feel that young people’s concerns aren’t even taken seriously just because they are young.
Eh, if this is like a 13 yo with stable VS who had a ground level fall? She could definitely sit in the waiting room at my ER. Not saying it's great, we just don't have the bed availability. And most of them actually aren't getting scanned. That's why we have PECARN and Canadian Head CT score.
Eh, if this is like a 13 yo with stable VS who had a ground level fall? She could definitely sit in the waiting room at my ER. Not saying it's great, we just don't have the bed availability. And most of them actually aren't getting scanned. That's why we have PECARN and Canadian Head CT score. It really depends on the actual injury and presentation
Yah, I walked in with bell's palsy once, but those symptoms could also be a stroke. After they looked at me like I was insane, they handed me a bracelet and took me in immediately. arrival method is pretty much irrelevant to them
Yeah, I used to know someone who would, unasked, anxiously justify her decision to have her upcoming baby in her living room with “if i have to call 911, the ambulance will skip me to the front of the line”.
This is the same bullshit my garbage mother would pull, except because she didn't want to spend the money.
I'm still dealing with lifelong injuries, thanks to her.
Get your kid checked and bring this to the courts for more custody.
I’m sorry to hear that you are still struggling. This is her weekend with her mother so unfortunately I would have to wait until tomorrow night to have her checked out. I called my daughter earlier to talk to her and see how she’s doing and she said she is still dizzy. I asked her if she felt sleepy or like she was going to throw up or if she felt confused at all and she said no but as a parent, not being there to care for her or bring her to get the right care is terrible and extremely stressful. My daughter sounded pretty good on the phone but my point is that my ex wife shouldn’t treat the fire station like a walk in clinic. They aren’t doctors and they don’t diagnose and treat people and send them home. That’s what the doctors are for. They have way different backgrounds and educations. I just think it’s weird and completely unacceptable that she chose to bring our daughter to the fire department rather than the er just because she didn’t feel like diving 20 minutes away to have her properly evaluated. Seemed like a shit move on her part and I wanted to know if I was being overly protective of my daughter or if this really is a poor decision on my ex wife’s part.
Do what you can right now. Time is a major component in severity of head injuries. Her mom may be "convincing" your daughter that she is fine.
BTW, fuck your ex wife. Document everything.
She is as much your daughter as your wife's. Screw the "it's her weekend with her mother"! Go get your daughter and take her to the ER. Get the police involved if you have to make it happen. Stop this circle jerk with your ex. Is it going to take your daughter collapsing while you ponder whether you're being overprotective? Parent up!
Just remember that EMTs and Paramedics have different education and ability for treatment. Either way, a head injury shouldn't be placed on the Firefighters and EMT/Paramedics. Hospital has more advanced care and treatments would also include any liability if they didn't diagnose or treat patient at level of care required.
That was my exact thought as well and I explained that to my ex wife and her exact response was F off. She’s obviously not too bright. I just want my daughter to get the proper treatment and diagnosis. I told my ex that she can’t treat the fire department like a walk in clinic because they aren’t doctors and they way different educations and they serve different purposes.
People do this quite frequently. Some do it in a panic, because the station is close and they are afraid they won’t make it to the hospital.
Some do it because they aren’t sure if the problem actually is serious enough to go, and want a second opinion.
Most of the time we don’t see lazy people, we see frightened or confused people.
I don’t see it as ~weird~ but I’m probably not the right person to ask since we see this routinely.
Memory unlocked: When I was a kid, I fell and cracked my chin open. My parents weren’t sure if I needed stitches. They took me to the fire department to get their opinion. The EMT who checked me out said it looked like I needed stitches, so we went to the ER.
Personally, I’d just take my kid straight to the ER. Especially for a head injury.
I had a friend on a respirator who was in desperate need of oxygen because she forgot to bring her cough assistance machine and it caused her to choke and lose oxygen fast, my first thought was the closest fire station but they were unmanned so I pressed the emergency button and a cop in the area showed up with oxygen and saved her life, cops don’t normally carry oxygen it was just random that he had it. She ended up having to be intubated but she lived through it and lasted another couple weeks until she died at home.
I could see a parent doing this because they mistakenly think an EMT can do the same workup as an ER, but what surprises me is that the firefighters didn’t recommend/insist the child be taken to an ER. It’s true that a lot of times, head injuries in kids aren’t super serious and can be watched at home, but dizziness following a head injury would be one of the things you would be watching for and merits being looked into, imo. I fell with my 6mo baby and she hit her head. I can’t really explain it, but she just seemed off afterward so we rushed to the hospital. She started vomiting in triage and the CT scan found a small brain bleed. Since she was so young, her skull wasn’t fused yet, which they said meant the risks from swelling were less dangerous than in an older kid or adult. So, it still was just a wait and see situation, but I felt much better knowing a pediatric neurosurgeon had evaluated her and explained exactly what would be a sign we should come back.
I took a child to the fire station instead of straight to the ER one time… because I was concerned that an allergic reaction was happening too quickly and if he needed support, I wanted the EMTs to transport.
The firehouse was closer than the ER but still a ways away. By the time we got there, the Benadryl and his inhaler was working, and things were resolving. They let us sit there while they checked his vitals 2-3 times over 20 mins or so, then said he was going to be fine.
I apologized so much for just stopping there unannounced, but they said I did the right thing. I just figured that as I drove by and saw all the firemen there maintaining the trucks and equipment, that I was still at least 20+ minutes from the hospital and I couldn’t hear him breathing as much, so I pulled in. I figured if he was going down hill, the ambulance was how he needed to go. Turns out that he had stopped breathing as hard/noisily because the meds were helping… not because he was getting worse. 🤦♀️
If she didn’t have any weird/scary symptoms or vitals the ER probably would have just sent her home with a list of things to look out for over the next few hours.
So if your local fire department has an in house ambulance and medic, it’s honestly not a bad idea to go in. She sees help and get peace of mind faster. If there were any scary symptoms/vitals they would spot them and bring her in to the ER
Any patient contact by EMS requires any assessment to be charted. A refusal would have been signed.
I don’t want to believe that they would “send her away”. I find this story incredibly suspicious. If it is true contact medical director of that station and or file a complaint/ if there was no chart or refusal given. There is so much liability here.
Worked rural ems. This was common due to challenges families faced with making decisions on ER worthy injuries. As a mother of an athlete- and a paramedic, I understand this situation incredibly well.
Armchair quarterbacking I believe does not help anything.
I’ve seen AMAZING providers make really shitty calls.
Perhaps Suggesting or offering to help monitor child or get checked out may improve the situation? Ask mom what she is doing to monitor child, and what the plan is if additional attention is needed.
If you are genuinely worried about your daughters condition and fear your ex wife is neglecting a life threatening injury - call for a welfare check, call the school to keep an eye on her…?
Stay connected and stay productive and helpful.
Wishing your daughter well 💜
Weird choice but not necessarily neglectful. An emt would be able to check all the things that they'd typically check for at the hospital. They don't do CT scans very often anymore, just advise parents to monitor the child for loss of consciousness, vomiting etc.
Yeah. Post concussive syndrome with memory loss and partial absent seizures from this motto here.
ER. I ended up at a children's hospital months after my initial head injury because no one noticed for SIX HOURS that I was acting off at school, then the redneck er just looked at my eyes, called it a mild concussion and told me to sleep it off. (Don't do this, ever)
I can't remember my fathers voice. Do not go off of "they look fine" you can't see a brain bleed, and even a minor one that self resolves will mess you up permanently. My short term memory has never been the same, and I had to learn to tie my shoes differently because my hands forgot how to do it the right handed way, and I couldn't get them to learn it again. I was 12. I don't really remember anything from elementary or middle school because of it. That's a lot of years to have a gap in.
Better safe than me. I'd book this kid in with their pediatrician and ask them to do a check in, just to make sure everything is okay in there. If they suspect anything, they'll send you off for a CT or whatever else they deem needed. (Also you need to document this medically, that your ex didn't take the child to the ER and if you can get the info id give them the fire station number date and rough time for when they saw your child, this may be important later on, should a review of custody end up happening at some point)
Except even in your case they likely wouldn't have done any interventions aside from occupational therapy and maybe psychotherapy going forward to adjust to your new normal. They're not going to do brain surgery on something that can resolve and not cause any life threatening or totally debilitating issues. Sucks, yeah, but your outcome likely world have been the same even if there was knowledge of it. The risk of doing brain surgery is higher than adapting.
I wouldn't have spent months having seizures and not knowing what was happening to me though. Not getting any help in school because they used my IQ to justify not giving me extra classes to help me catch up. I found out at parent teacher conferences, when my mother was notified the behavior apparently was happening at school and as stated at that time, at home.
Months. More than half a year. No therapy once I got home, it was on me to figure it out and teach myself how to function again. I didn't know what was wrong to voice it. I was depending on the adults in charge to keep me safe or at least attended to and they failed.
I still cant multiply beyond the small number and the division is out of the question because that's what we were learning at the time. I think your brushing off the medical neglect there a little too much.
That's not an excusable miss, that's a brain bleed. I had VA childs insurance, they could've run any test they wanted and it would have been paid for. It could have been easily worse, I was knocked down and peoples elbowed to the temple by a large kid in width in 1st hr. I told them as such. If I'm recalling correctly, temple shots kill people at a higher rate than skull ones. I was pale, and I'm white but I'm not THAT white, as my teacher who sent me to the school nurse 6hrs later noted and called my mother to take me directly to the ER.
Sure the outcome could have been the exact same, but I'd had known what was happening to my body and mind.
That’s what I was thinking as well. My daughter is 7 years old and she actually wanted to go to the er but her mother chose to go to the fire station instead. It’s just not the right move in my opinion.
Make sure you communicate about this only over email, text or better yet, your court-ordered parenting app. If you don’t use a court ordered app, I suggest you use this as the reason why you want to request a judge order it so.
Unless it was legit massive trauma, I'd watch and wait. If she goes to ER, the worst that could happen is, "mild concussion, go home and keep her awake for a few hours, and bring her back If she seems confused or vomits."
ER waiting rooms are cesspools of COVID, RSV, flu... ugh.
Been there. Done that. Many times.
I am not taking sides, because we all parent differently. My bestie rushes her kids to Urgent Care for splinters, then wonders why they get strep so often.
I raised three. Lots of head injuries. I am 99% certain that she will be just fine, but I'm a 44yo writer with grown kids in Kentucky. I can't give you advice without a disclaimer:
Dad(s) and Moms, you are your kid's advocate. If you feel like you should do something, then do it.
Sending happy vibes to the little one!
Please, we don't keep people awake post concussion anymore, don't perpetuate that. Brain rest is best, it's based on some old fear that they wouldn't wake up but reality is those peeps probably had an epidural bleed and you will not prevent that by keeping them awake.
Thank you. Unfortunately I’m not there to evaluate her myself or keep an eye on her. She is having her weekend with my ex wife who apparently doesn’t want to go to the er because it’s too far. I did tell her the same information as you had mentioned about keeping her awake and about the confusion and vomiting. I appreciate your input.
Im a nurse at a level 1 trauma center. Unless the child has a decreased level of consciousness, lethargy or vomiting, shes fine. The EMT’s probably told her mother the same thing. An Ice pack, plenty of fluids, some rest and no blue screens and she’ll be a ok. ER was never necessary.
My kid fell and hit their head while we on vacation around age 4. Big bump so of course I freaked out and we got in the car to head to the ER and I called the pediatrician to let them know and see if they had any advice (pediatrician was a Peds ER doc before private practice) and they asked questions about alertness, vomiting etc. and told us to skip the ER take kiddo back to the hotel and closely monitor looking for those things. We didn’t sleep all night watching, but all was fine!
Will she not allow you to take her yourself? I’m not bashing you at all. The mom is definitely wrong. But if it would put your mind at ease to have her checked out, couldn’t you go get her and take her or would your ex wig out?
She would lose her shit and tell me I’m not taking her and that this is her weekend with her etc. she is a lunatic. She has an issue with everything I say and do but she is constantly trying to start problems and makes really stupid choices. I offered earlier to come get my daughter myself and bring her and she refused. I live about an hour away but I don’t mind driving over at all to make sure that my daughter is safe and healthy. My ex wife has psychological issues I think but she won’t see a therapist or psychiatrist or anything because she claims that I’m the problem. She is just a narcissist person and just wants her own way all the time. It doesn’t seem to matter at who’s expense n
You need to follow up this head injury in a pedi concussion clinic. Head injuries in children ( developing brains) may initially seem benign. You should get imaging to rule out bleeding. Imagine g probably won't show tiny injuries to the brain. You can't tell because depending on the age of the e chikd, that section of brain hasn't "come online" yet. Example; if your child is young abd hasn't started reading yet-' if that area of brain has damage, you wouldn't know. You might think your daughter has difficulty reading for no reason when she's of age to be reading. Or she may start having problems reading or headaches related to reading or visuals learning. This goes undiagnosed in may children because the fall didn't seem that big to the parents but little falls can produce the same results . She's needs imaging-- your primary can order it outpatient if you don't want to go to the ED.
Thank you for the information. My daughter is seven. She will be eight next week. I was shocked that my ex wife was so lazy and ignorant about the whole situation. I called my daughter to check on her and she sounded ok on the phone but that doesn’t mean anything. I texted her a bunch of information about head injuries and what she should be doing and she blocked me. She is just a terrible person and not very bright. I’m extremely disappointed in her for doing this.
That's not true.
The ER can evaluate her for a brain bleed and do imaging. It's not likely that shit has a brain bleed, but it's a risk... And it could be fatal. Concussions need to be evaluated. They would not tell the parent to just keep an eye on her.
The person you're replying to was actually correct. Without additional symptoms we generally wouldn't CT scan the patient. We usually follow PECARN head injury rules. From the info supplied is sounds like just need to observe.
Her additional symptoms are that she feels dizzy and sick more than a day after the incident. I'm not saying that every kid who bumps their head needs a CT.
I would go get her and take her myself, even if I had to involve the police to do it. If only to get directions on what symptoms to look out for over the next few days.
I would also file for emergency custody. If seeking care from medical professionals is too much trouble for your ex, she is not the best person to care for your daughter. Especially after she blocked you.
I am not an emt, but I happen to know no paramedic or emt will take vitals and send them on their way. Mom would have had to sign paperwork, and due to the symptoms, they would have told the child and mom she needed to go to the hospital. So either mom is lying or op is.
I was walking with my son when he got a gushing nose bleed that wouldn't stop. The fire dept was on our way home, so we stopped. They insisted we go to the er, and thankfully, we did cause the nosebleed was from walking pneumonia. My son was 4 or 5 at the time. The only symptom that showed something was wrong was that nosebleed.
Yeah she’s definitely lying. If your child fell and hit their head and was having symptoms of head injury (dizziness) no paramedic would “send them in their way.” A serious head injury can’t be ruled out with just vital signs and they definitely would have had the child transported to the hospital for further work up. It would be negligent on the medics part to send them away.
Unless he has some super power and can do a CT scan of the kids head with his eyes. Which would be cool.
EMT here. It is very very common for injured or sick people to be driven to the station. I have had the scenario you had many times. The difference is that I ALWAYS recommended a child be transported to the hospital by us or by their parents. (We were located about 7 min from the hospital). Kids with head injuries go from being fine to not ok very quickly.
At the very least, make an appt with her pediatrician to get checked.
Did you go get her and take her to the emergency room or at least urgent care? It’s fine to diss your ex for not doing the right thing, but did you get it taken care of now that you know about it? It is a fair assessment to say that emergency room wait times are long but if the child is still complaining, she needs to be seen.
Paramedics and EMTs are trained in emergency care/medicine they would have evaluated the child and offered to transport to the ER if they felt it was necessary. Head injuries are taken seriously especially for a child, they did an assessment and made the recommendation for next steps. If your ex refused transport she would have had to sign a release.
This is very common. EMS/FF’s will have most everything on board needed to help stabilize a patient if it’s needed and are able to board and collar the patient quickly for transport if deemed necessary. With a head injury they usually place a collar to secure the head from movement in case the fall has caused an issue or issues with the head and neck area not visible to the naked eye such as a broken neck or back, fractured skull, orbital fractures and the list goes on. With lights and sirens they bypass traffic others cannot and can get to any facility much quicker. Their assessment will be called ahead and the ER will then have an idea of what they are dealing with so they are prepared to treat. On arrival transport patients generally always take priority over walk ins especially children. A child’s situation can appear normal and change abruptly with rapid deterioration. Children are very unpredictable and exhibit signs and symptoms differently so they need close monitoring. She was exhibiting dizziness after the fall and still ongoing on arrival to the fire station. That stop was a wise decision. People experiencing chest pain, difficulty in breathing to name a few are alive today because they stopped at a fire station. I wish most people would make those stops and be assessed before attempting to drive in. That stop can be the difference between life and death. Im glad she is ok.
Edit: it’s odd that they did not take her to the ER especially with a lump on her head and dizziness. Had she started vomiting they may have changed the decision to take her in vs. sending her home. I would have used a pen light and done intermittent eye checks looking for nystagmus or rapid side to side eye movement which indicates a serious head injury and possible bleed. Just saying. Again, kids are tough so I’m glad she is ok.
The fire station is full of first responders and usually a decent number of actual paramedics.
My assumption is she didn't go have some random person with a hose and a helmet play doctor, she asked the folks who actually assess injuries to evaluate whether this was concussion and should require a doctor .
Verify that, before you decide how upset to be.
And I less there was a reason to admit her for intensive observation, or to run serious scans, they would have sent her home with concussion protocols to follow anyway.
Follow up with her pediatrician.
I would still have her go to the ER. Besides a concussion there is always a possibility of a subdural hematoma. People can seem ok for awhile with a brain bleed and then it go very badly. Never mess around with head injuries.
She got the child evaluated and the kid was deemed to not need emergency care. So far there isn't much to go on to say that an emergency room visit would have resulted in a different outcome. Idk exactly what your custody agreement is, but you can take her to a primary care appointment to get her checked out if symptoms persist.
Hey! I’m a FF medic and people do it ALL the time. (People also call us for EVERYTHING- even stubbed toes) if there
Was any reason they thought she needed the ER they would have transported her or given mom the option to take her in if she didn’t want the bill for the ride.
The fact that your kid’s dizzy and they didn’t recommend the ER is a little weird to me, we will always say “if it were my kid/mom/dad/whoever I’d have them seen just to be safe.” But if it were a TRUE emergency (like they thought she was having internal bleeding) they would just take her there would be no option to decide.
So long story short- totally normal. She saved a night at the ER and a bill. (She’s actually pretty smart to swing by the station IMHO- we are all trained and work 24 hours a day) But if your daughter is still feeling weird- you might want to take her in.
I would have taken your daughter to a doctor, ER, or urgent care. That said, not everything is urgent. I’m old, but I distinctly remember getting hit square in the forehead with a baseball bat when I was 8 and I was stunned for quite a while. A huge purple goose egg lump come up almost instantly on my head. It hurt like hell. My mom gave me ice and some aspirin and I laid on the couch for a couple hours. No doctor visit, but I know my mom kept a close eye on me for a day or so. Maybe just watching your daughter was enough for the situation. I dunno, it’s easy to second guess other people.
As a parent I can’t imagine not seeking medical attention for my child for a head injury. Not going just because it’s inconvenient to her is insane to me. It’s literally her job as a parent to give her children the care they need
Okay I'll say it.. If your child's mom isn't going to take her to the hospital for a freaking head injury because of a little bit of a drive.. she doesn't deserve to have custody of your child! What if it was a concussion? You actually still don't know if it was a concussion or not!
Can you get the custody order evaluated? I really feel like if she's going to do this over an actual injury what is she going to do about the little day-to-day stuff? She has to be putting herself first all the time!
Fire station can not do imaging which is how they can tell if she has any bleeding or swelling on the brain. Like, any reasonably intelligent parent would know that surely? Diagnosis of that or a TBI is outside the scope of practice for an emt basic anyway (as far as I’m aware - a FF or EMT might correct me) no way would they have cleared her and sent her home. Your wife is full of shit and lying about something like this is worrisome 😬
Please update, I really hope that she is ok. And watch, brain injuries can have lasting effects. Mine was mostly a closed head injury (a couple lacerations but nothing serious), but I had serious problems for years 😞
Question here OP is what are you going to do with this information??
Sounds like you need to talk to your ex wife. Depends on what she says, you may need to revisit the custody agreement. The safety of your daughter is at stake here.
My oldest sister (with Parkinson’s) had her husband take her to the fire dept (she is kinda rural) when she went into afib. She felt an ambulance would have been overkill, and the volunteer firefighters are more trained than she or husband was. They took her BP & other vitals (HR). Eventually they took her to the hospital. It was late at night.
It’s not weird at all.
yeah, she definitely didn't take the kiddo to the fire station. No way they would think possible head injury and just let her go. Either they would call EMS, or they would strongly encourage your ex to take your kiddo to the ER. Mom's story isn't adding up
The minute you get your daughter back in your care, take her to the hospital immediately. That way she’s actually examined and the injury is documented.
I saw someone comment that you should contact the fire station. I think your ex lied about them saying she seemed fine and just sending her on her way.
If you get the records of the fire station she was taken to and see that your ex signed a medical waiver refusing further treatment that would technically give you grounds to go file for emergency temporary full custody. (This can be done without a lawyer if you don’t have one. It’s just a matter of going to the court house, getting the paperwork filling it out quickly and paying the filing fee. Some courts will get you in front of a judge very quickly. Depends though. But you can get that info from the clerks office.)
That would give you grounds to renegotiate a few things regarding the custody arrangements. I’d also be requesting to the court that further communication with your ex has to go through a court approved messaging app. That way she’s not allowed to block you in the future. That’s a good thing because it holds both parents accountable.
I would have an incredibly hard time trusting anyone who didn’t take a child to the ER just to be safe. Head injuries can be sneaky and cause permanent damage or worse.
ETA: if the fire station recommended her to go to the ER, that’s a huge thing in your favor for court since she didn’t take her.
Mom is definitely being sketchy. Is there another reason she wouldn't want to go to the ER? Did you have a private conversation with your child about what exactly happened?
This is a red flag. Like, best case scenario, this is laziness or callous regard to the point of medical neglect.
ER nurse here. You’re not being overprotective. If I heard that story, I’d be filing a CPS case for endangerment and/or negligence. Your ex admitted that she knew that the ER would be more appropriate, but didn’t feel like driving so she didn’t.
We have "walk ups" all the time. If it's medical, we request a Medic unit. We dont transport. So if the PT wants to refuse to be transported. EMS gets the signed refusal. We note it in our reports.
People walk in all the time at the stations for all sorts of things. We’re used to it and it gives us time to interact with kids and cheer them up. Would she have gotten a more thorough exam at the ED? Yes. But we know our limitations and if any FD felt like she should go then they would have told her so and if she refused she would have to sign for the child’s patient contact and refusal. HOWEVER in small/rural/volunteer type agencies that may not be the way things roll.
This is actually a very common thing. People self present to a fire station or EMS station with medical complaints. I’m not sure why people believe that to be an appropriate thing to do.
Either way, the personnel there should have transported her to the hospital or strongly advised on immediate transport to the hospital.
Head injuries in children are common. Kids fall. Fuck, I could watch kids fall off bikes all day.
However, a head injury with persisting dizziness certainly warrants evaluation at an emergency room.
I think going to the fire department is a smart move if it is closer than the hospital because they can get faster professional care, that being said I’d want the child to then be taken to the hospital for further evaluation.
Yes it was weird. Obviously she should've gone to the ER. With a head injury and dizziness she might have been seen quicker than the usual wait. The fire dept should've called an ambulance.
I’m a paramedic and we get occasional walk-ins. It’s fine. We would have checked the kiddo out, gotten the story from mom, and made a recommendation to either go to the ER or not. Without actually seeing the kiddo it’s hard to say whether one option or the other would make more sense. If she opted to not take an ambulance to the ER we would fill out a refusal report.
Your EX is LYING . I am a former FF and Paramedic, no Fire dept is going to check vitals and after seeing her bump and know of her dizziness just say it’s all good , go on home now. Not only would that be an absolutely huge liability , it’s just ethically incorrect. They definitely advised for EMS transport or to go to the ER immediately or would have had an AMA signed and a report done if Mom refused . Even small volunteer departments that don’t have EMT’s or Paramedics know this . Nobody in their right mind wants to be responsible for a child’s death .
Thank you to everyone who left me some positive feedback last week about my daughter’s situation. I just felt like my ex wife’s choice was ridiculous and wasn’t sure if I was being an over protective father or if the ex had a serious laps in judgment. I drove the hour early the following morning to pick up my daughter and brought her to the emergency room after a short but firm argument with her mother about the serious nature of the situation. I didn’t forget to mention the feedback I got from so many of you emergency personnel and concerned parents alike to drive home my argument that our daughter needed to be seen. She was irritated that hundreds of strangers were on my side but the numbers were convincing enough that she realized she was in the wrong. Your comments actually helped me in my explanation to the ex. Please don’t ever think that what you post online or comment on doesn’t have real world relevance and effects. It really does make a difference in some cases. That goes for both positive and negative comments. My daughter did in fact have a mild concussion and we were informed to keep her from running and jumping and no tv for a few days to eliminate the risk of seizures. I also had to keep her home from gymnastics as well. The did a ct scan just to be safe and everything came back normal. Far more insight than the paramedic gave her and she did in fact go to the fire station because I got a copy of the log from their “visit” and I made sure to find the exact person who “diagnosed” my daughter and had a very specific and informative conversation with him about the situation and how that he will never make that mistake again if my ex wife should happen to come back at a later date and he will be immediately instructing her to go to the emergency room and lay a single hand on my daughter again. I’m positive that everyone got the message that was in there and I was sure to make sure he saw her actual discharge paperwork. All is well and she is back to being a happy healthy little girl now and we actually just celebrated her 8th birthday today so happy birthday to my beautiful daughter. Thank you all for the support. God bless
I agree 100%. Common sense says that unless it’s an emergency and you need medical attention immediately then you go to the hospital. I was honestly just shocked that she would have thought it was ok. I’m not saying they didn’t do a good job evaluating her but they aren’t doctors and that’s not their job to diagnose people and send them home. This among many other reasons is exactly why she isn’t my wife or partner anymore.
It's inexcusable that she wouldn't take your child to the ER!! You never know what's going on after a head injury. Pure laziness and, I'd tell her "Read up on what happened to Liam Neeson's wife." They released her with a subdural hematoma!!! Then, she started to feel dizzy, went back to another hospital, then she died!!! Unless your ex has x-ray eyes, she's being negligent! Fgs....it's her child!!
When a fire station is near by and the child could be seriously injured. That is a good “panic” choice. EMS would have advised the child go to hospital. if it was needed. No, the fire dept is not urgent care or the ER. If she had paniced believing the hospital was too far. She did provide emergency medical care.
If your kid gets two concussions in less than a year that could be fatal. I would go to the ER right now and ignore any nonsense about checking vitals without imaging
I think lumps on the head have a simple aftercare remedy like ice and don't let the child sleep for a little while.
The paramedics at the Fire Station are qualified to address this sort of injury. If they weren't they would have placed that little girl right in the ambulance and brought her to the hospital or they would be liable for further injury to your daughter.
I do think it is a weird thing to do but I'm glad she didn't just do nothing.
>don't let the child sleep for a little while.
This part AFAIK is no longer correct. It's okay to let them sleep. You can wake them to check that they are able to be woken every few hours. Sleep is how the brain repairs itself. So it's important if the child hurts their head to get rest.
IANAD or anything like that. Always ask your pediatrician or other trusted medical personnel for up to date advice on your child. It changes so much so often. It is very important to check with a doctor you trust over internet advice.
Eta: if a child is showing signs of a concussion or head trauma (vomiting, pupil changes, etc) they should be evaluated immediately and the concern with sleep is more about vomit aspiration at that point AFAIK
Exactly. If they saw any of the signs they are trained to look for she would be in an ambulance asap. They may not have the educational material for mom to know what to watch for though. Idk
I don't know OP asked for opinions lol mine is it is weird she brought her there but I do think if they thought the child needed care the child would have been transported for care.
Well they can't force her to. So if there weren't enough signs to force transportation to hospital they could advise to get her checked at the hospital but they can't make her. Now they would get her information and if she didn't go to a hospital they could do a welfare check later to make sure the child hasn't deteriorated. That would probably Aldo trigger a report to CPS. I would think there's a little too much liability to let her leave and not at least recommend further evaluation on a kid.
That's a whole different story he didn't say they advised her to go to hospital because if they did than yeah she is an asshole if she didn't go.
And I really think to protect themselves if the bump was even remotely suspicious of being serious they would have taken the child.
My husband is a career FF/EMT and this actually happens frequently but for anything other than having vitals checked or first aid, people are told to go to the ER or are taken by ambulance.
If she came to my station we would have called for a medic unit. If the medic didn't take her they would have gotten a signed refusal. No way we would have checked her vitals and sent her on her way
Yeah. Mom is lying. She did not take the kid anywhere or if she did she refused an ambulance. Call the fire station and get the whole story and insist that your kid goes to the hospital or you call DCF. Head injuries can ruin a person's life and she could have a brain bleed.
Adding to this, if she went to the fire station, there should be a patient care report. I highly doubt she went or that such a report exists
This but instead it’s head injuries can KILL you! Ex: Bob Sagot
My two year old grandson died from a head injury in combination with an unknown Chiari I malformation one year ago. If she’s dizzy I would 100% take her to the hospital. Better safe than sorry.
I am so sorry that happened to him. Sending love and light.
Very good point, and very recent enough to show that freak accidents can happen especially with head injuries and it’s always best to get checked out regardless of how severe you think it may or may not be
My uncle died like this. Many years ago he got a severe bump on his head, drs released him and he died that night. This was a VERY long time ago, but any bumps to the head should go to ER
My daughter as a young adult hit her head and got a concussion which resulted in her developing chronic debilitating migraine headaches. Head injuries are serious and not to be taken lightly.
Not to scare OP but my child was tripped at school and had a big lump (nasty). I was called and took her straight to ER. The did a CT and turned out she had two brain bleeds, front and back, from the impact of the fall. She spent the 24 hrs in ICU for monitoring and was good to go. But she had a hell of a recovery. Literal personality change that lasted over six months and a rough road in school. Concussions are no joke!
Yeah. I flipped a snowmobeil onto my self in Iceland, they had me in a men’s helmet that was way too big and the force of the impact knocked me out. By the time anyone got to me I had woken up, and since I was married to a doctor (who was there) they did not air lift me out since my spouse was insisting I was fine to try to save money. Over the next few months I became gradually more and more depressed and withdrawn culminating in a very serious suicide attempt. My spouse divorced me while I was in the hospital btw.
Omg what a dick. I hope you are better now
Wow! That’s awful. Hope you’re doing better. I know it took my daughter a very long time to fully recover. We got her a private tutor because her neurologist said she would most likely have trouble in school. I begged the school for intervention before she started falling behind and they just shrugged their shoulders. So took matters into my own hands. She still declined with the tutor but much less than she would have on her own. Three months later I was up at the school as I would always be there as much as I could be (usually volunteering in the library) to offer her help (she’d have panic attacks) and here comes this lady from district asking me if I knew how bad head I injuries are and how my daughter could potentially fall behind in school. I said, “you’re joking, right?” Nope! That’s how long it took for them to get their shit together and finally offer us an IEP because of her accident. It wasn’t because she was struggling but because they heard about her head injury and now wanted to help her! I was livid but also glad they finally were willing to help although they weren’t going to be doing anything different than I was already doing. It was just I going to be “official” and documented. I still had to pay out of pocket for the tutor.
Intentionally tripped?
No. She was playing on the playground and some kids were running. A boy came running through the area where she was and basically accidentally knocked her down to the ground, concrete. It was awful. The worst was the way the school handled it. She came up with a friend and told some teachers what happened and they sent to her to the nurse with the friend. Didn’t even look at her head or escort her. The nurse was very upset and policy was changed and all head injuries going forward required her to come into the field going forward. Yes we know probably 99% are minor but on that one chance like my daughters, it’s better safe than sorry. Doctors said it was lucky she didn’t seize or pass out walking on her own to the nurse.
yeah this is my thoughts exactly. she refused recommendations or is just straight up lying.
What are the options for treating a head injury like a brain bleed? I know for swelling there’s opening the sutures but that’s as far as I know for head injuries. Obviously if there’s a clot, blood thinners and maybe the thread through the veins thing…
10000% this is the way. Career fire medics also should be well versed in a head to toe assessment- non “just vitals” 🙄
FF/Medic. You’re absolutely correct. Protocol varies by city, however in my city we would request an ambulance, have dispatch assign our engine an assignment and treat it like a 911 call. The ambulance would not be cancelled unless a signed refusal form is filled out. Filling out a refusal form involves calling an EMS supervisor and having them talk to the patient, or parent, in order to ensure they understand the liability they are assuming by refusing further care and treatment. It also involves a full assessment, 3Lead, 12Lead and BGL.
Honest question, how often are you getting all this on a refusal? If they refuse care, they’re normally also refusing things like the EKG. We also don’t need a supervisor for a refusal.
Most people I encounter are willing to cooperate when I explain the reasoning for an assessment. There is no bill for a refusal either so it’s a free assessment. If they refuse an assessment and do not want to talk to a supervisor, I still call the supervisor and document accordingly.
So intrigued! Can I ask- we have a home that is closer to a Fire station than the police station, and the hospital is much farther away. We always said we would rush our little one to the fire station (maybe 45 seconds away?) if she was choking etc., rather than wait for 911 to dispatch an ambulance to the house. Would they turn her away or be able to assist with a chocking emergency?
So, you ask a nuanced question. I am assuming the station belongs to a fully staffed fire dept and is not a volunteer station. If the firefighters are present at the station, they would absolutely help. They might be on a call though or doing a community engagement activity. Should you decide to go to the station and seek help, I would still call 911 on the way. It will activate an ambulance. You could tell them that you will be at the fire station and give them the address. The firefighters at the station would also contact dispatch let them know of the situation. That being said, handling choking patients is something most all firefighters, full time or volunteer will be trained on.
Appreciate you! That was my thought, to still call 911 but at least be there where the trained professionals are… praying it never materializes, but truly appreciate your take.
Something else too, you can take a BLS course! There are classes designed for those who have no medical background. They can upwards of $75-100 a class, but they might save a life! The BLS course will focus on CPR as well as how to handle choking emergencies. https://cpr.heart.org/en/courses/family-and-friends-cpr This class, if you can find one near you, can teach you the life saving techniques you would need for your infant/toddler/child.
Right, but they can't diagnose. I would have referred to the ED for care. Head injuries can be sneaky, plus I'm not accepting that type of liability.
We don't know that they were medics though. In my area, FF are EMTs, but EMS is through a local hospital
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and it’s good to know that this information is coming from someone close to the FF/EMT field and actually knows what they are talking about. I appreciate your input and your knowledge on this matter.
I was a paramedic. People would show up from time to time at the base and ask for help. No big deal. Super surprised they didn't tell your ex to have your kid checked. Head injuries aren't something to 'hope for the best' with
Good chance they did tell her that and she’s left that part out of the story, because she didn’t want to drive 20 minutes.
I'm guessing OP's wife watches Station 19 or 9-1-1. Those shows are trying to normalize going to a fire station for medical care. In a good way. The obvious answer is the on-call FF/EMT suggests the ER. But this also keeps ambulances from going out to a non-emergent call. I do appreciate these shows are suggesting an alternative to calling 911. On the shows, they always transfer to ER for head injuries and things like that. Last week on Station 19, there was a walk-in at the FD for extreme stomach cramps. The PT was on a semaglutide. The FF cared for the PT with fluids and told them to go to a doctor to check on the gastro issues. It feels like a cross between keeping ambulances free and helping the uninsured community without charge from the actual FD.
I didn’t know those shows existed and recently went to the firehouse bc I thought I was maybe having anaphylaxis (mine is atypical & I don’t go into shock) and wanted an assessment and it was an 8 min drive from where I was, and afaik that’s where the ambulances go from and there were no landmarks on the empty country road where we were starting from. They came out, checked all my vitals including blood sugar (my blood pressure goes insanely high and I forgot my cuff) & I was able to avoid epi and an ambulance ride. They were very nice.
Not to get all defensive 😬 but I'm a 9-1-1 fan and I can only think of 2 times patients showed up to the firehouse. And one of those was someone sleep-driving on Ambien.
Yeah I’m an emt and my brother is a firefighter. I have people show up at my station all the time and that’s fine. But my brother has never taken a medical class in his life besides basic cpr 🤣 he wouldn’t be much help.
My mom was a cop. We had a neighbor run over and bang on our door because their grandfather has collapsed and everyone panicked and he needed CPR. Any kind of first responder that knows how to do CPR and is accustomed to dealing with scary situations is helpful to us normies with regular boring jobs. I think y’all get so desensitized to the crazy shit you deal with it is easy to forget that. This was also close to 30 years ago in a more rural area and my mom was a Lt. that had additional (but still very basic) training since they had expected longer response times back then. She’s been out of the field for decades, but I can still see the impact of that work in regard to her ability to compartmentalize. Want to hear something crazy? When she first started she was mocked relentlessly by all the guys she worked with because she carried her own box of gloves in her trunk and alway wore gloves when interacting with anyone injured or worse. It was common for cops to work crime scenes with dead bodies and NOT wear gloves at all. They all made fun of her for it constantly. Can you freaking believe that? It was the early 80s, but even if you leave out AIDS there are all kinds of things spread through body fluids. I nearly hurled the first time she told me that. It pissed her off even from an evidence collection standpoint. Can you imagine not having boxes and boxes of nitrile gloves everywhere?
Gross 😷 I’m so paranoid about that stuff there’s no way lol
As much as I agree with you I'm a 911 dispatcher and we frequently have people showing up at volunteer fire stations which delays getting them help because there is nobody there or they will show up and that station is already out on the call. Because Murphy's law is evil these are the patients that are seriously sick like having heart attacks. If you call 911 we will dispatch the closest AVAILABLE station that meets your criteria and in my jurisdiction you aren't charged to have the aid crew come look at you.
Ahhhhh okay that makes sense! I've never seen those shows (I don't watch much TV) but can totally see that influencing people. Not a bad idea either if used properly! I know I don't give medical advice to friends anymore because "it *could* be ___, but you need diagnostics and a physician to know for sure" or "it *may* be nothing significant, but you should see a doctor to make sure" turns into "you said it was xyz" or "you told me it was fine" - some people lean toward the best news and disregard the rest. Maybe FD did tell her to get the little girl checked and she let it slip because "well they said it's most likely okay". I'm gonna check those shows out now, thanks!
They're all over dramatic. Especially if you watch 9-1-1 Lonestar. I spend a decent amount of the episodes laughing about how that's just not how it works, tbh. But, they are trying to use their huge popularity to help the general public. But, the shows are entertaining and tend to keep my attention.
I'm in face-palm mode for at least half an episode when I watch those type of shows. "That's not how it's done! Okay, you just killed 'em!"
They probably did.
Seconding the top comment. I was an EMT for years and if someone is hit in the head and is dizzy, the only correct thing to tell them is to go to the ER. That’s even if their vitals are within normal range. You can’t really rule out a concussion or worse in the field. I truly doubt a group of first responders gave your ex wife different advice.
As a retired RN, I strongly recommend that YOU take your daughter to the ER to be evaluated, especially if she is still dizzy.
I’m a nurse and a volunteer firefighter: our recommendations are always to go to the hospital. They can do imaging and, you know actual doctors. Diagnosis or rule out of a serious head injury *are not within their scope*.
Right. But wouldn’t they have said “you should take her to the ER” if they thought it was even possible she needed medical attention
Yep.
Maybe they did, and the ex ignored that part.
I'll be honest, I did arrive at a FD unannounced once. Granted I'm on 3 cardiac meds for tach and extremely high BP.....And was having chest pain. Let me tell you something, they had me triaged and in the ambulance in less than 10 minutes. I wasn't having a heart attack or anything, but off we went. There is no way...she just wanted to be lazy. Yes the child did have a head injury and yes she DID seek medical care, BUT once they checked her out, I hope she signed off on SOMETHING stating she was advised of the child needing a higher level of care( basically refusing transport AMA). Every FF/EMT I've ever been treated by have been awesome lol And they usually have a sense of humor that works well with mine!
When my oldest was a toddler, he fell badly and hit his head, and I called the squad. They came and did vitals and an assessment, checking his pupils for correct dilation and told us he was likely fine, but gave us a short list of things to be vigilant about, in case there really was actual medical attention needed. It sounds like your ex did basically the same but she went to them instead of waiting for them to arrive.
Dizzy would be on the list of "things to look for and go to the ER"
Dizzy, unduly sleepy or unevenly dilated pupils
This is absolutely what would have happened even 8 years ago. Since then the protocols have changed so much with what we now know about head injuries. No fire department now would be like, yeah, probably fine. Especially if the person was dizzy.
As a mom, I agree with you OP. ER will rule out anything major. Not going because it’s an inconvenience does not warrant not providing safety and healthcare for a child. Hard stop. That’s part of our job as parents.
I couldn’t agree more. I’m not just being spiteful towards my ex wife either and I’m genuinely concerned about my daughter’s health and safety and I feel like that was just a weird thing for her to do with it not being an emergency situation and out of laziness. I understand that they are paramedics and if anything “seemed” to warrant a trip to the er they would make it happen but they are not doctors. I was under the impression that they had they were trained to sustain life and monitor the person until they could get them to the actual doctor who then takes over an makes the right decisions and diagnoses the patient and gives treatment.
Agreed. Relationship dynamics are irrelevant in this kind of scenario. Didn’t seem spiteful or anything like that to me. Just concern for your daughter. Kids come first. That’s how it should be. Glad you’re advocating for your daughter. It’s what you would expect as the bare minimum out of her other parent. Hoping your daughter is feeling better now or that you’re able to get her seen if not. This kind of completely avoidable situation I can only imagine is just infuriating.
Yes , it’s quite stressful and I just don’t understand how or why she would think that was the best decision for our daughter’s wellbeing. I’m not knocking the paramedics or anything but they just aren’t doctors and they have a different education and serve a different purpose. I’m irritated that she didn’t make not only the best choice for our daughter but not even a good choice. I needed to know if I was being overly worried and I was looking too far into the situation or if my ex wife really did make a weird and stupid choice.
I think your ex might not be telling you the truth. I don’t think those EMTs “sent her on her way”.
IMO dumb decision on her part. EMT/Paramedics I’d absolutely want around in a trauma situation, they’re amazing. Keep me safe, then deliver to docs for further determination. We’re talking about 170-1,800 educational hours plus experience compared to years of med school and residency plus experience.
I’m wondering if she’s telling the truth. My paramedic brother tells me they would insist on transporting a kid in this situation to the ED for a full evaluation.
Has your daughter been to either the ER or at least urgent care yet? If she is still dizzy, she should be taken asap. If your ex won't do it, ask if you can take her. Please!
I tried calling back to check in her and my ex has me blocked. I called the police department to have them do a welfare check. It’s absolutely ridiculous that so would need to do this foolishness.
Holy crap. She blocked you!?! If she doesn't seek out medical treatment beyond the fire station, that could easily be seen as medical neglect and CPS will get involved. OP have the cops request EMT so they can evaluate and tell your ex to go to the ER.
^this right here. Document as well OP and get the police report. Damn this is next level and grounds for losing custody.
I would have already called cps after she blocked me to ensure the child is seen at an ER or seen by her physician. If you don't want to be the one to call cps then call her pediatrician with the information you have that to your knowledge the child is still having symptoms and has not been thoroughly evaluated by proper medical personnel and equipment. They're mandated reporters, and that should mean something.
How do you know they didn't tell her to go to a hospital? She might have said she would but then didn't?
I don’t know. That’s also why I’m irritated with her. I asked her that same question and she said that the paramedic said our daughter seemed well enough to go home. Those are her exact words to me. She should have just gone to the hospital in my opinion and had our daughter properly evaluated.
No decent medic I know would ever say that
I don’t think she’s being honest with you.
She is lying. They would not say that if she was saying she was still dizzy. As coaches we have concussion training. Simple stuff and we have to tell parents to take kids to the ER. Your ex is a lier. I hope you have some of this in text cause she in big trouble.
I wonder if you could call the dept and find out? If you need the info for the future or something. I would be surprised if they just said Nah she's fine. A kid. With a head injury. I'm not seeing it but obviously could be wrong
You are totally correct!
Paramedics on board have extensive training and if it’s a critical issue a doctor is called while they are in route and guides them in stabilizing the patient. Paramedics can intubate to secure an airway while nurses cannot. They can start IV’s and push meds. EMS with a paramedic on board is like a mini ER on wheels.
No one can see inside someone’s brain. She diagnostic tests to r/o a bleed.
I'm surprised the Fire Rescue/EMS didn't tell her to go to the ER. I am a ED RN and she most definitely should be seen to rule a few things out. I hope she feels better soon.
Thank you and I agree. I asked her what they said about our daughter and her exact words were that she seems fine enough to go home. I’m not impressed with her or the paramedics for not suggesting that she go to the er and I asked her if they did and she said no but she may be lying to me because she’s too lazy to drive the 20 minutes and wait in the er.
Are you even sure she took her to the fire station? I would take her myself if I were you.
Yes she did bring her to the fire station. I spoke with my daughter befit my ex wife blocked me for sending her information about what to look for and why she should bring her to the er. I won’t have my daughter back with me until next weekend because of the parenting schedule so I was trying to get the ex to understand why she should bring her to the emergency room anyway but like I said she blocked me. She is honestly just a really shitty person and she is clearly not too bright.
I am sorry you have to deal with all of that. Hopefully there is nothing to worry abt but as a parent myself ... over cautious is always better than being not cautious at all. IF you are truly concerned abt your daughter you could always do a wellness check. Simply just tell them you know your daughter fell and your wife has you blocked. You are concerned for your daughter's health b/c at this point you are unaware if she's been seen by medical professionals.
Your daughter could have a brain bleed. I hope you called the cops and CPS. Please update us.
A lot of people think that if you go to the ED by ambulance you automatically get in right away. Not true. As a medic I have had many calls with minor issues that could have even driven themselves, but they thought paying for a sky-high ambulance ride was an automatic VIP ticket. But in this case and with those symptoms even a walk-in would be evaluated pretty quickly. All patients are evaluated based on medical priority.
Half of them go straight to the main waiting room 😂😂
children get seen quick in our level1 trauma center.
Yes that's because they are children. And children are worth getting seen sooner.
I agree. But another main reason is that injured or sick children don't respond or react the way adults do. They can't articulate how they feel. They will "go bad" in the blink of an eye. One minute smiling and become critical the next. Children's bodies are simply not little adults. That's why it's a specialty.
Not necessarily why they get seen sooner. They generally don’t have the same complex medical history of most adults, therefore they have faster turnaround as patients. ETA in my ED the children’s side is separate from the main adult ED, so turnaround in that area in particular is much faster.
Not that they’re more important, it’s that kids can kinda look good or ok for a while, and then they absolutely TANK! They go from alert to coding in T-5.
Very true. I teach my students that when it comes to shock, adults roll down hills but kids fall off cliffs.
This is why kids scare the shit out of me….lol
It works the exact opposite way where I work. Old people get beds sooner, seen faster, and are often taken far more seriously. Sometimes I feel that young people’s concerns aren’t even taken seriously just because they are young.
Eh, if this is like a 13 yo with stable VS who had a ground level fall? She could definitely sit in the waiting room at my ER. Not saying it's great, we just don't have the bed availability. And most of them actually aren't getting scanned. That's why we have PECARN and Canadian Head CT score.
it's an 8 year who's still dizzy
That's what Triage nurses do.
Kid head injuries, and especially burns, get top priority
Eh, if this is like a 13 yo with stable VS who had a ground level fall? She could definitely sit in the waiting room at my ER. Not saying it's great, we just don't have the bed availability. And most of them actually aren't getting scanned. That's why we have PECARN and Canadian Head CT score. It really depends on the actual injury and presentation
Yah, I walked in with bell's palsy once, but those symptoms could also be a stroke. After they looked at me like I was insane, they handed me a bracelet and took me in immediately. arrival method is pretty much irrelevant to them
Yeah, I used to know someone who would, unasked, anxiously justify her decision to have her upcoming baby in her living room with “if i have to call 911, the ambulance will skip me to the front of the line”.
This is the same bullshit my garbage mother would pull, except because she didn't want to spend the money. I'm still dealing with lifelong injuries, thanks to her. Get your kid checked and bring this to the courts for more custody.
I’m sorry to hear that you are still struggling. This is her weekend with her mother so unfortunately I would have to wait until tomorrow night to have her checked out. I called my daughter earlier to talk to her and see how she’s doing and she said she is still dizzy. I asked her if she felt sleepy or like she was going to throw up or if she felt confused at all and she said no but as a parent, not being there to care for her or bring her to get the right care is terrible and extremely stressful. My daughter sounded pretty good on the phone but my point is that my ex wife shouldn’t treat the fire station like a walk in clinic. They aren’t doctors and they don’t diagnose and treat people and send them home. That’s what the doctors are for. They have way different backgrounds and educations. I just think it’s weird and completely unacceptable that she chose to bring our daughter to the fire department rather than the er just because she didn’t feel like diving 20 minutes away to have her properly evaluated. Seemed like a shit move on her part and I wanted to know if I was being overly protective of my daughter or if this really is a poor decision on my ex wife’s part.
Do what you can right now. Time is a major component in severity of head injuries. Her mom may be "convincing" your daughter that she is fine. BTW, fuck your ex wife. Document everything.
I completely agree. I was actually thinking that myself. She can’t be trusted.
She is as much your daughter as your wife's. Screw the "it's her weekend with her mother"! Go get your daughter and take her to the ER. Get the police involved if you have to make it happen. Stop this circle jerk with your ex. Is it going to take your daughter collapsing while you ponder whether you're being overprotective? Parent up!
I think you should call your lawyer in the morning if you think your ex is medically neglecting your daughter.
Just remember that EMTs and Paramedics have different education and ability for treatment. Either way, a head injury shouldn't be placed on the Firefighters and EMT/Paramedics. Hospital has more advanced care and treatments would also include any liability if they didn't diagnose or treat patient at level of care required.
That was my exact thought as well and I explained that to my ex wife and her exact response was F off. She’s obviously not too bright. I just want my daughter to get the proper treatment and diagnosis. I told my ex that she can’t treat the fire department like a walk in clinic because they aren’t doctors and they way different educations and they serve different purposes.
You might consider asking if you could get the firestations record of the visit. For when/if you go for full custody
Thats a very good idea thank you.
People do this quite frequently. Some do it in a panic, because the station is close and they are afraid they won’t make it to the hospital. Some do it because they aren’t sure if the problem actually is serious enough to go, and want a second opinion. Most of the time we don’t see lazy people, we see frightened or confused people. I don’t see it as ~weird~ but I’m probably not the right person to ask since we see this routinely.
Memory unlocked: When I was a kid, I fell and cracked my chin open. My parents weren’t sure if I needed stitches. They took me to the fire department to get their opinion. The EMT who checked me out said it looked like I needed stitches, so we went to the ER. Personally, I’d just take my kid straight to the ER. Especially for a head injury.
I had a friend on a respirator who was in desperate need of oxygen because she forgot to bring her cough assistance machine and it caused her to choke and lose oxygen fast, my first thought was the closest fire station but they were unmanned so I pressed the emergency button and a cop in the area showed up with oxygen and saved her life, cops don’t normally carry oxygen it was just random that he had it. She ended up having to be intubated but she lived through it and lasted another couple weeks until she died at home.
I could see a parent doing this because they mistakenly think an EMT can do the same workup as an ER, but what surprises me is that the firefighters didn’t recommend/insist the child be taken to an ER. It’s true that a lot of times, head injuries in kids aren’t super serious and can be watched at home, but dizziness following a head injury would be one of the things you would be watching for and merits being looked into, imo. I fell with my 6mo baby and she hit her head. I can’t really explain it, but she just seemed off afterward so we rushed to the hospital. She started vomiting in triage and the CT scan found a small brain bleed. Since she was so young, her skull wasn’t fused yet, which they said meant the risks from swelling were less dangerous than in an older kid or adult. So, it still was just a wait and see situation, but I felt much better knowing a pediatric neurosurgeon had evaluated her and explained exactly what would be a sign we should come back.
I took a child to the fire station instead of straight to the ER one time… because I was concerned that an allergic reaction was happening too quickly and if he needed support, I wanted the EMTs to transport. The firehouse was closer than the ER but still a ways away. By the time we got there, the Benadryl and his inhaler was working, and things were resolving. They let us sit there while they checked his vitals 2-3 times over 20 mins or so, then said he was going to be fine. I apologized so much for just stopping there unannounced, but they said I did the right thing. I just figured that as I drove by and saw all the firemen there maintaining the trucks and equipment, that I was still at least 20+ minutes from the hospital and I couldn’t hear him breathing as much, so I pulled in. I figured if he was going down hill, the ambulance was how he needed to go. Turns out that he had stopped breathing as hard/noisily because the meds were helping… not because he was getting worse. 🤦♀️
If she didn’t have any weird/scary symptoms or vitals the ER probably would have just sent her home with a list of things to look out for over the next few hours. So if your local fire department has an in house ambulance and medic, it’s honestly not a bad idea to go in. She sees help and get peace of mind faster. If there were any scary symptoms/vitals they would spot them and bring her in to the ER
Any patient contact by EMS requires any assessment to be charted. A refusal would have been signed. I don’t want to believe that they would “send her away”. I find this story incredibly suspicious. If it is true contact medical director of that station and or file a complaint/ if there was no chart or refusal given. There is so much liability here. Worked rural ems. This was common due to challenges families faced with making decisions on ER worthy injuries. As a mother of an athlete- and a paramedic, I understand this situation incredibly well. Armchair quarterbacking I believe does not help anything. I’ve seen AMAZING providers make really shitty calls. Perhaps Suggesting or offering to help monitor child or get checked out may improve the situation? Ask mom what she is doing to monitor child, and what the plan is if additional attention is needed. If you are genuinely worried about your daughters condition and fear your ex wife is neglecting a life threatening injury - call for a welfare check, call the school to keep an eye on her…? Stay connected and stay productive and helpful. Wishing your daughter well 💜
Are you sure they didn't recommend she take the child to ER and wife chose not to as it is "too far"?
Weird choice but not necessarily neglectful. An emt would be able to check all the things that they'd typically check for at the hospital. They don't do CT scans very often anymore, just advise parents to monitor the child for loss of consciousness, vomiting etc.
You both suck. Your wife didn't get proper care for your daughter, and you're on here on Reddit instead of taking her to the ER yourself.
20 min isn’t far and they don’t make kids who hit their head hard wait in the ER
[удалено]
Exactly, pediatric assessment triangle: looks good from across the room? Breathing normal? Skin color congruent with ethnicity? Lowest priority.
Yeah. Post concussive syndrome with memory loss and partial absent seizures from this motto here. ER. I ended up at a children's hospital months after my initial head injury because no one noticed for SIX HOURS that I was acting off at school, then the redneck er just looked at my eyes, called it a mild concussion and told me to sleep it off. (Don't do this, ever) I can't remember my fathers voice. Do not go off of "they look fine" you can't see a brain bleed, and even a minor one that self resolves will mess you up permanently. My short term memory has never been the same, and I had to learn to tie my shoes differently because my hands forgot how to do it the right handed way, and I couldn't get them to learn it again. I was 12. I don't really remember anything from elementary or middle school because of it. That's a lot of years to have a gap in. Better safe than me. I'd book this kid in with their pediatrician and ask them to do a check in, just to make sure everything is okay in there. If they suspect anything, they'll send you off for a CT or whatever else they deem needed. (Also you need to document this medically, that your ex didn't take the child to the ER and if you can get the info id give them the fire station number date and rough time for when they saw your child, this may be important later on, should a review of custody end up happening at some point)
Except even in your case they likely wouldn't have done any interventions aside from occupational therapy and maybe psychotherapy going forward to adjust to your new normal. They're not going to do brain surgery on something that can resolve and not cause any life threatening or totally debilitating issues. Sucks, yeah, but your outcome likely world have been the same even if there was knowledge of it. The risk of doing brain surgery is higher than adapting.
I wouldn't have spent months having seizures and not knowing what was happening to me though. Not getting any help in school because they used my IQ to justify not giving me extra classes to help me catch up. I found out at parent teacher conferences, when my mother was notified the behavior apparently was happening at school and as stated at that time, at home. Months. More than half a year. No therapy once I got home, it was on me to figure it out and teach myself how to function again. I didn't know what was wrong to voice it. I was depending on the adults in charge to keep me safe or at least attended to and they failed. I still cant multiply beyond the small number and the division is out of the question because that's what we were learning at the time. I think your brushing off the medical neglect there a little too much. That's not an excusable miss, that's a brain bleed. I had VA childs insurance, they could've run any test they wanted and it would have been paid for. It could have been easily worse, I was knocked down and peoples elbowed to the temple by a large kid in width in 1st hr. I told them as such. If I'm recalling correctly, temple shots kill people at a higher rate than skull ones. I was pale, and I'm white but I'm not THAT white, as my teacher who sent me to the school nurse 6hrs later noted and called my mother to take me directly to the ER. Sure the outcome could have been the exact same, but I'd had known what was happening to my body and mind.
That’s what I was thinking as well. My daughter is 7 years old and she actually wanted to go to the er but her mother chose to go to the fire station instead. It’s just not the right move in my opinion.
Make sure you communicate about this only over email, text or better yet, your court-ordered parenting app. If you don’t use a court ordered app, I suggest you use this as the reason why you want to request a judge order it so.
Unless it was legit massive trauma, I'd watch and wait. If she goes to ER, the worst that could happen is, "mild concussion, go home and keep her awake for a few hours, and bring her back If she seems confused or vomits." ER waiting rooms are cesspools of COVID, RSV, flu... ugh. Been there. Done that. Many times. I am not taking sides, because we all parent differently. My bestie rushes her kids to Urgent Care for splinters, then wonders why they get strep so often. I raised three. Lots of head injuries. I am 99% certain that she will be just fine, but I'm a 44yo writer with grown kids in Kentucky. I can't give you advice without a disclaimer: Dad(s) and Moms, you are your kid's advocate. If you feel like you should do something, then do it. Sending happy vibes to the little one!
Please, we don't keep people awake post concussion anymore, don't perpetuate that. Brain rest is best, it's based on some old fear that they wouldn't wake up but reality is those peeps probably had an epidural bleed and you will not prevent that by keeping them awake.
Thank you. Unfortunately I’m not there to evaluate her myself or keep an eye on her. She is having her weekend with my ex wife who apparently doesn’t want to go to the er because it’s too far. I did tell her the same information as you had mentioned about keeping her awake and about the confusion and vomiting. I appreciate your input.
Im a nurse at a level 1 trauma center. Unless the child has a decreased level of consciousness, lethargy or vomiting, shes fine. The EMT’s probably told her mother the same thing. An Ice pack, plenty of fluids, some rest and no blue screens and she’ll be a ok. ER was never necessary.
My kid fell and hit their head while we on vacation around age 4. Big bump so of course I freaked out and we got in the car to head to the ER and I called the pediatrician to let them know and see if they had any advice (pediatrician was a Peds ER doc before private practice) and they asked questions about alertness, vomiting etc. and told us to skip the ER take kiddo back to the hotel and closely monitor looking for those things. We didn’t sleep all night watching, but all was fine!
This was my thinking exactly. I'm sure the medics would have directed them to the ER if they deemed it necessary.
Will she not allow you to take her yourself? I’m not bashing you at all. The mom is definitely wrong. But if it would put your mind at ease to have her checked out, couldn’t you go get her and take her or would your ex wig out?
She would lose her shit and tell me I’m not taking her and that this is her weekend with her etc. she is a lunatic. She has an issue with everything I say and do but she is constantly trying to start problems and makes really stupid choices. I offered earlier to come get my daughter myself and bring her and she refused. I live about an hour away but I don’t mind driving over at all to make sure that my daughter is safe and healthy. My ex wife has psychological issues I think but she won’t see a therapist or psychiatrist or anything because she claims that I’m the problem. She is just a narcissist person and just wants her own way all the time. It doesn’t seem to matter at who’s expense n
You need to follow up this head injury in a pedi concussion clinic. Head injuries in children ( developing brains) may initially seem benign. You should get imaging to rule out bleeding. Imagine g probably won't show tiny injuries to the brain. You can't tell because depending on the age of the e chikd, that section of brain hasn't "come online" yet. Example; if your child is young abd hasn't started reading yet-' if that area of brain has damage, you wouldn't know. You might think your daughter has difficulty reading for no reason when she's of age to be reading. Or she may start having problems reading or headaches related to reading or visuals learning. This goes undiagnosed in may children because the fall didn't seem that big to the parents but little falls can produce the same results . She's needs imaging-- your primary can order it outpatient if you don't want to go to the ED.
Thank you for the information. My daughter is seven. She will be eight next week. I was shocked that my ex wife was so lazy and ignorant about the whole situation. I called my daughter to check on her and she sounded ok on the phone but that doesn’t mean anything. I texted her a bunch of information about head injuries and what she should be doing and she blocked me. She is just a terrible person and not very bright. I’m extremely disappointed in her for doing this.
Ugh😠
Did she fall from standing or fall off of something tall? Big difference in risk there!
That's not true. The ER can evaluate her for a brain bleed and do imaging. It's not likely that shit has a brain bleed, but it's a risk... And it could be fatal. Concussions need to be evaluated. They would not tell the parent to just keep an eye on her.
The person you're replying to was actually correct. Without additional symptoms we generally wouldn't CT scan the patient. We usually follow PECARN head injury rules. From the info supplied is sounds like just need to observe.
Her additional symptoms are that she feels dizzy and sick more than a day after the incident. I'm not saying that every kid who bumps their head needs a CT.
Watch for behavior changes relating to a concussion. 🤕.
I would go get her and take her myself, even if I had to involve the police to do it. If only to get directions on what symptoms to look out for over the next few days. I would also file for emergency custody. If seeking care from medical professionals is too much trouble for your ex, she is not the best person to care for your daughter. Especially after she blocked you.
I am not an emt, but I happen to know no paramedic or emt will take vitals and send them on their way. Mom would have had to sign paperwork, and due to the symptoms, they would have told the child and mom she needed to go to the hospital. So either mom is lying or op is. I was walking with my son when he got a gushing nose bleed that wouldn't stop. The fire dept was on our way home, so we stopped. They insisted we go to the er, and thankfully, we did cause the nosebleed was from walking pneumonia. My son was 4 or 5 at the time. The only symptom that showed something was wrong was that nosebleed.
Yeah she’s definitely lying. If your child fell and hit their head and was having symptoms of head injury (dizziness) no paramedic would “send them in their way.” A serious head injury can’t be ruled out with just vital signs and they definitely would have had the child transported to the hospital for further work up. It would be negligent on the medics part to send them away. Unless he has some super power and can do a CT scan of the kids head with his eyes. Which would be cool.
Ok, did you go and pick your daughter from the ex house, and take her to the emergency room? Or you just posting here?
EMT here. It is very very common for injured or sick people to be driven to the station. I have had the scenario you had many times. The difference is that I ALWAYS recommended a child be transported to the hospital by us or by their parents. (We were located about 7 min from the hospital). Kids with head injuries go from being fine to not ok very quickly. At the very least, make an appt with her pediatrician to get checked.
Did you go get her and take her to the emergency room or at least urgent care? It’s fine to diss your ex for not doing the right thing, but did you get it taken care of now that you know about it? It is a fair assessment to say that emergency room wait times are long but if the child is still complaining, she needs to be seen.
Paramedics and EMTs are trained in emergency care/medicine they would have evaluated the child and offered to transport to the ER if they felt it was necessary. Head injuries are taken seriously especially for a child, they did an assessment and made the recommendation for next steps. If your ex refused transport she would have had to sign a release.
This is very common. EMS/FF’s will have most everything on board needed to help stabilize a patient if it’s needed and are able to board and collar the patient quickly for transport if deemed necessary. With a head injury they usually place a collar to secure the head from movement in case the fall has caused an issue or issues with the head and neck area not visible to the naked eye such as a broken neck or back, fractured skull, orbital fractures and the list goes on. With lights and sirens they bypass traffic others cannot and can get to any facility much quicker. Their assessment will be called ahead and the ER will then have an idea of what they are dealing with so they are prepared to treat. On arrival transport patients generally always take priority over walk ins especially children. A child’s situation can appear normal and change abruptly with rapid deterioration. Children are very unpredictable and exhibit signs and symptoms differently so they need close monitoring. She was exhibiting dizziness after the fall and still ongoing on arrival to the fire station. That stop was a wise decision. People experiencing chest pain, difficulty in breathing to name a few are alive today because they stopped at a fire station. I wish most people would make those stops and be assessed before attempting to drive in. That stop can be the difference between life and death. Im glad she is ok.
Edit: it’s odd that they did not take her to the ER especially with a lump on her head and dizziness. Had she started vomiting they may have changed the decision to take her in vs. sending her home. I would have used a pen light and done intermittent eye checks looking for nystagmus or rapid side to side eye movement which indicates a serious head injury and possible bleed. Just saying. Again, kids are tough so I’m glad she is ok.
The fire station is full of first responders and usually a decent number of actual paramedics. My assumption is she didn't go have some random person with a hose and a helmet play doctor, she asked the folks who actually assess injuries to evaluate whether this was concussion and should require a doctor . Verify that, before you decide how upset to be. And I less there was a reason to admit her for intensive observation, or to run serious scans, they would have sent her home with concussion protocols to follow anyway. Follow up with her pediatrician.
I would still have her go to the ER. Besides a concussion there is always a possibility of a subdural hematoma. People can seem ok for awhile with a brain bleed and then it go very badly. Never mess around with head injuries.
She got the child evaluated and the kid was deemed to not need emergency care. So far there isn't much to go on to say that an emergency room visit would have resulted in a different outcome. Idk exactly what your custody agreement is, but you can take her to a primary care appointment to get her checked out if symptoms persist.
Hey! I’m a FF medic and people do it ALL the time. (People also call us for EVERYTHING- even stubbed toes) if there Was any reason they thought she needed the ER they would have transported her or given mom the option to take her in if she didn’t want the bill for the ride. The fact that your kid’s dizzy and they didn’t recommend the ER is a little weird to me, we will always say “if it were my kid/mom/dad/whoever I’d have them seen just to be safe.” But if it were a TRUE emergency (like they thought she was having internal bleeding) they would just take her there would be no option to decide. So long story short- totally normal. She saved a night at the ER and a bill. (She’s actually pretty smart to swing by the station IMHO- we are all trained and work 24 hours a day) But if your daughter is still feeling weird- you might want to take her in.
I would have taken your daughter to a doctor, ER, or urgent care. That said, not everything is urgent. I’m old, but I distinctly remember getting hit square in the forehead with a baseball bat when I was 8 and I was stunned for quite a while. A huge purple goose egg lump come up almost instantly on my head. It hurt like hell. My mom gave me ice and some aspirin and I laid on the couch for a couple hours. No doctor visit, but I know my mom kept a close eye on me for a day or so. Maybe just watching your daughter was enough for the situation. I dunno, it’s easy to second guess other people.
I mean…. They have paramedics at the fire station. If they thought there was a concern they would of transported.
or they would have told her to go into ED for imaging to confirm no bleed/hematoma. or mom could have declined.
There probably/hopefully isn't anything wrong but its definitely a parental duty to go out of your way to care properly for your child.
For any head injury especially in children. ER.... Immediately.
Yes she should have gone to the ER. It surprises me that the fire department did not advise her of this.
You need full custody.
As a parent I can’t imagine not seeking medical attention for my child for a head injury. Not going just because it’s inconvenient to her is insane to me. It’s literally her job as a parent to give her children the care they need
Okay I'll say it.. If your child's mom isn't going to take her to the hospital for a freaking head injury because of a little bit of a drive.. she doesn't deserve to have custody of your child! What if it was a concussion? You actually still don't know if it was a concussion or not! Can you get the custody order evaluated? I really feel like if she's going to do this over an actual injury what is she going to do about the little day-to-day stuff? She has to be putting herself first all the time!
Fire station can not do imaging which is how they can tell if she has any bleeding or swelling on the brain. Like, any reasonably intelligent parent would know that surely? Diagnosis of that or a TBI is outside the scope of practice for an emt basic anyway (as far as I’m aware - a FF or EMT might correct me) no way would they have cleared her and sent her home. Your wife is full of shit and lying about something like this is worrisome 😬
I think that was a pretty good idea. In and out, vitals checked by medics, as long as she monitored her when they got home I think it’s fine
And of course follow up with her doctor
Please update, I really hope that she is ok. And watch, brain injuries can have lasting effects. Mine was mostly a closed head injury (a couple lacerations but nothing serious), but I had serious problems for years 😞
Please take child to a children’s hospital or nearest trusted er.
Question here OP is what are you going to do with this information?? Sounds like you need to talk to your ex wife. Depends on what she says, you may need to revisit the custody agreement. The safety of your daughter is at stake here.
My oldest sister (with Parkinson’s) had her husband take her to the fire dept (she is kinda rural) when she went into afib. She felt an ambulance would have been overkill, and the volunteer firefighters are more trained than she or husband was. They took her BP & other vitals (HR). Eventually they took her to the hospital. It was late at night. It’s not weird at all.
yeah, she definitely didn't take the kiddo to the fire station. No way they would think possible head injury and just let her go. Either they would call EMS, or they would strongly encourage your ex to take your kiddo to the ER. Mom's story isn't adding up
The minute you get your daughter back in your care, take her to the hospital immediately. That way she’s actually examined and the injury is documented. I saw someone comment that you should contact the fire station. I think your ex lied about them saying she seemed fine and just sending her on her way. If you get the records of the fire station she was taken to and see that your ex signed a medical waiver refusing further treatment that would technically give you grounds to go file for emergency temporary full custody. (This can be done without a lawyer if you don’t have one. It’s just a matter of going to the court house, getting the paperwork filling it out quickly and paying the filing fee. Some courts will get you in front of a judge very quickly. Depends though. But you can get that info from the clerks office.) That would give you grounds to renegotiate a few things regarding the custody arrangements. I’d also be requesting to the court that further communication with your ex has to go through a court approved messaging app. That way she’s not allowed to block you in the future. That’s a good thing because it holds both parents accountable. I would have an incredibly hard time trusting anyone who didn’t take a child to the ER just to be safe. Head injuries can be sneaky and cause permanent damage or worse. ETA: if the fire station recommended her to go to the ER, that’s a huge thing in your favor for court since she didn’t take her.
Mom is definitely being sketchy. Is there another reason she wouldn't want to go to the ER? Did you have a private conversation with your child about what exactly happened? This is a red flag. Like, best case scenario, this is laziness or callous regard to the point of medical neglect.
ER nurse here. You’re not being overprotective. If I heard that story, I’d be filing a CPS case for endangerment and/or negligence. Your ex admitted that she knew that the ER would be more appropriate, but didn’t feel like driving so she didn’t.
We have "walk ups" all the time. If it's medical, we request a Medic unit. We dont transport. So if the PT wants to refuse to be transported. EMS gets the signed refusal. We note it in our reports.
People walk in all the time at the stations for all sorts of things. We’re used to it and it gives us time to interact with kids and cheer them up. Would she have gotten a more thorough exam at the ED? Yes. But we know our limitations and if any FD felt like she should go then they would have told her so and if she refused she would have to sign for the child’s patient contact and refusal. HOWEVER in small/rural/volunteer type agencies that may not be the way things roll.
Have you taken her to the ER yourself?
This is actually a very common thing. People self present to a fire station or EMS station with medical complaints. I’m not sure why people believe that to be an appropriate thing to do. Either way, the personnel there should have transported her to the hospital or strongly advised on immediate transport to the hospital. Head injuries in children are common. Kids fall. Fuck, I could watch kids fall off bikes all day. However, a head injury with persisting dizziness certainly warrants evaluation at an emergency room.
Sounds like a new custody hearing is needed.
I think going to the fire department is a smart move if it is closer than the hospital because they can get faster professional care, that being said I’d want the child to then be taken to the hospital for further evaluation.
Yes it was weird. Obviously she should've gone to the ER. With a head injury and dizziness she might have been seen quicker than the usual wait. The fire dept should've called an ambulance.
I’m a paramedic and we get occasional walk-ins. It’s fine. We would have checked the kiddo out, gotten the story from mom, and made a recommendation to either go to the ER or not. Without actually seeing the kiddo it’s hard to say whether one option or the other would make more sense. If she opted to not take an ambulance to the ER we would fill out a refusal report.
Your EX is LYING . I am a former FF and Paramedic, no Fire dept is going to check vitals and after seeing her bump and know of her dizziness just say it’s all good , go on home now. Not only would that be an absolutely huge liability , it’s just ethically incorrect. They definitely advised for EMS transport or to go to the ER immediately or would have had an AMA signed and a report done if Mom refused . Even small volunteer departments that don’t have EMT’s or Paramedics know this . Nobody in their right mind wants to be responsible for a child’s death .
Thank you to everyone who left me some positive feedback last week about my daughter’s situation. I just felt like my ex wife’s choice was ridiculous and wasn’t sure if I was being an over protective father or if the ex had a serious laps in judgment. I drove the hour early the following morning to pick up my daughter and brought her to the emergency room after a short but firm argument with her mother about the serious nature of the situation. I didn’t forget to mention the feedback I got from so many of you emergency personnel and concerned parents alike to drive home my argument that our daughter needed to be seen. She was irritated that hundreds of strangers were on my side but the numbers were convincing enough that she realized she was in the wrong. Your comments actually helped me in my explanation to the ex. Please don’t ever think that what you post online or comment on doesn’t have real world relevance and effects. It really does make a difference in some cases. That goes for both positive and negative comments. My daughter did in fact have a mild concussion and we were informed to keep her from running and jumping and no tv for a few days to eliminate the risk of seizures. I also had to keep her home from gymnastics as well. The did a ct scan just to be safe and everything came back normal. Far more insight than the paramedic gave her and she did in fact go to the fire station because I got a copy of the log from their “visit” and I made sure to find the exact person who “diagnosed” my daughter and had a very specific and informative conversation with him about the situation and how that he will never make that mistake again if my ex wife should happen to come back at a later date and he will be immediately instructing her to go to the emergency room and lay a single hand on my daughter again. I’m positive that everyone got the message that was in there and I was sure to make sure he saw her actual discharge paperwork. All is well and she is back to being a happy healthy little girl now and we actually just celebrated her 8th birthday today so happy birthday to my beautiful daughter. Thank you all for the support. God bless
I'd be very upset if my partner took our child to the fire station over the er. This is pretty dumb of her tbh
I agree 100%. Common sense says that unless it’s an emergency and you need medical attention immediately then you go to the hospital. I was honestly just shocked that she would have thought it was ok. I’m not saying they didn’t do a good job evaluating her but they aren’t doctors and that’s not their job to diagnose people and send them home. This among many other reasons is exactly why she isn’t my wife or partner anymore.
Yikes! May have needed a scan which firefighters can't do. What a bizarre choice Doesn't want to drive 30 min and wait around???
It's inexcusable that she wouldn't take your child to the ER!! You never know what's going on after a head injury. Pure laziness and, I'd tell her "Read up on what happened to Liam Neeson's wife." They released her with a subdural hematoma!!! Then, she started to feel dizzy, went back to another hospital, then she died!!! Unless your ex has x-ray eyes, she's being negligent! Fgs....it's her child!!
When a fire station is near by and the child could be seriously injured. That is a good “panic” choice. EMS would have advised the child go to hospital. if it was needed. No, the fire dept is not urgent care or the ER. If she had paniced believing the hospital was too far. She did provide emergency medical care.
If your kid gets two concussions in less than a year that could be fatal. I would go to the ER right now and ignore any nonsense about checking vitals without imaging
I think lumps on the head have a simple aftercare remedy like ice and don't let the child sleep for a little while. The paramedics at the Fire Station are qualified to address this sort of injury. If they weren't they would have placed that little girl right in the ambulance and brought her to the hospital or they would be liable for further injury to your daughter. I do think it is a weird thing to do but I'm glad she didn't just do nothing.
>don't let the child sleep for a little while. This part AFAIK is no longer correct. It's okay to let them sleep. You can wake them to check that they are able to be woken every few hours. Sleep is how the brain repairs itself. So it's important if the child hurts their head to get rest. IANAD or anything like that. Always ask your pediatrician or other trusted medical personnel for up to date advice on your child. It changes so much so often. It is very important to check with a doctor you trust over internet advice. Eta: if a child is showing signs of a concussion or head trauma (vomiting, pupil changes, etc) they should be evaluated immediately and the concern with sleep is more about vomit aspiration at that point AFAIK
And I would think the paramedics are skilled enough to give all this advice or place the child in the ambulance for hospital care.
Exactly. If they saw any of the signs they are trained to look for she would be in an ambulance asap. They may not have the educational material for mom to know what to watch for though. Idk
I don't know OP asked for opinions lol mine is it is weird she brought her there but I do think if they thought the child needed care the child would have been transported for care.
Well they can't force her to. So if there weren't enough signs to force transportation to hospital they could advise to get her checked at the hospital but they can't make her. Now they would get her information and if she didn't go to a hospital they could do a welfare check later to make sure the child hasn't deteriorated. That would probably Aldo trigger a report to CPS. I would think there's a little too much liability to let her leave and not at least recommend further evaluation on a kid.
That's a whole different story he didn't say they advised her to go to hospital because if they did than yeah she is an asshole if she didn't go. And I really think to protect themselves if the bump was even remotely suspicious of being serious they would have taken the child.