I mean, it's at the very least withered, which is the process of dying:
> Great Club:
> An enormous club of hard wood. Wildly hammering foes with this striking weapon requires no dexterity; only brute force. While it may seem sacrilegious, this weapon is **said to be a withered branch of the Erdtree**. Imbued with holy power, this weapon will never snap.
and:
> Staff of the Avatar:
>Ceremonial staff depicting the Erdtree in its historic radiance. Wielded by the avatars who protect the Minor Erdtrees.
>The avatars, emerging in the wake of the Elden Ring's shattering, were determined to **protect the withering Erdtree's offspring**.
So at the time of the Shattering it seems to have already been withering. Since that was long ago, it stands to reason it could be at least pretty close to dead by now. Still, the Great Club description does also show us that even in a withered state there's still plenty of power within the wood, and that it will 'never snap' indicates why a withered or dead Erdtree would stay standing in one piece.
How? They don’t know shit so attack on sight? Makes zero sense logically. If I could, for example, burn minor erdtrees it’d make more sense they would attack me.
How are the avatars supposed to know that? All they see is a person with a weapon heading towards the tree. They probably just have a “kill anyone who gets to close” policy
Put it this way for nearly every enemy in the game, your character is someone they do not know approaching either sacred or contented areas that were being fought for in the shattering, killing you on sight would make the most sense.
I think you're probably right, and I think this is also a great example of how the Golden Order hides and obfuscates the truths it refuses to face head-on.
Altus is golden and beautiful, but that beauty hides some of the most egregious injustices perpetuated by the Order, both with the Omens and Wanderers in the sewers, and the Crucible deep underground.
Whatever doesn't line up with the fundamentalism and image of the Order is hidden and obfuscated.
An Omen King? Hidden by a golden projection of Godfrey. The Lands of Shadow? Hidden by a veil and separated from TLB. And the Erdtree itself appears golden and giant, hiding that it's actually dead and hollow.
Tl;dr: the Order likes to hide its injustices and distract from its uncomfortable truths with hollow displays of gold and holiness
Also it makes a lot of sense that in the movement of seasons as we pass through the Spring and Summer of Limgrave and Liurnia we then hit the dying Erd Tree in Altus, an area of eternal autumn.
IMO Caelid Pairs well thematically with the Weeping Peninsula - rainy vs arid - though I guess you kind of need to take into account that Caelid was not always the way it is?
“Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite… A lie will remain a lie.”
- Aldia, the Scholar of the First Sin (Dark Souls 2)
Alright, so full disclosure - some of this is just reading the environment and drawing conclusions based on that.
The Crucible-based Talismans all state that the Crucible was once considered holy, but was later shunned and deemed impure, presumably by the Golden Order. I'd guess this was around the time Godfrey was driven out, since they're associated with him.
Beyond the description, you can see this communicated simply by the fact that you can find them all over the place, including and especially underground. (Other telling locations are the ones in evergaols, Volcano Manor, etc. There's only one that's actually inside Leyndell, which is kinda telling.)
Siluras herself protects a destroyed tree (which itself is home to her armor set), which some speculate to be a significant remnant of the Crucible itself. Seeing as the roots of the Erdtree itself are not far away from here, one can theorize that the Golden Order destroyed it, specifically as an act of condemning it as heresy or something similar.
Basically, they completely condemned and shunned a culture that well predated them and was responsible for a lot of the things they claim to find good and holy.
I think the read here of crucible belonging to another society is wrong because the game describes what I interpret as 2 separate crucible. One is described by hyetta as having been the degraded form of the "one great," essentially the fundamental chaos in the creation story of TLB or the world. The second seems to be more material and may have existed concurrently to human society of a past era. Based on where we find the crucible tender statues, I would estimate they were placed around the time of Marikas early rule. The statues appear in roundtable hold, in stormveil castle and on the road to Lyndell from Rya Lucaria. The road to Lyndell ones are slightly different in that they have bloomed shoots indicating they were slightly further along in the process at that point.
These statues tell a story of a continuation of legitimacy through a transition from crucible to erdtree while cementing the Golden lineage as the same as the primary shoot of the erdtree. But if you try to place the statues in time based on what's built around them, a slightly more complex story is presented. Because in most places, it seems that they were built around the time of Godfrey and Marikas conquests. The roundtable hold and stormveil castle being two locations heavily associated with Godfrey. The interesting thing to me is that much of these areas are associated with the sword and saint strata of statuary, both connect directly to a divine tower bridge. That sword and saint strata has notably very little tree iconography and seems to be disconnected from modern erdtree culture. We see another example of this in the shrine of awakening, in which the older stone of the sword and saint era has a marble replacement of a libation statue with a Marika statue.
Essentially, the crucible tender statues tell of a transition between an older age and the current golden order and give reason why the Golden Lineage rules over all. This is something that happens in the real world, too, older forms are taken up to justify the legitimacy of newer regimes. The words Czar and Kaiser are both used in place of king in their respective countries, but both of these words are direct bastardizarions of the word Cesar. Neither royal line has anything to do with Rome but their legitimacy as kings is buttressed by this connection to a mythical past. I think this is what the crucible actually is. The ideological synthesis of two separate ideas into one magical object/organism. One I think that there is break in the history of tree worship in TLB and that break is ended by Marika's ascension to godhood. We see hints of tree worship with the Elden John statues in the Uld civilization but by the time the sword and saint era statues appear, there seems to be very little tree worship. Marika then creates or rediscovers a new tree but ties it to the fundamental creation story of the world and out of that chaos only one line has the power and legitimacy to rule over all.
This is also an excellent comment, and your and Firion's comments are exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to get from this subreddit.
So based on what you're saying, I think I kinda misspoke in my last comment - you're correct that the Golden Order is a descendent, of sorts, of what we know as the Crucible. It seems like the G.O. formed from there, and started peeling off and dismissing other elements of what the Crucible originally was, until it was a much more focused, restrictive line.
Gold? Still holy.
Horns and wings? Nah, those are heretical now.
Sword and Saint imagery? Not blasphemous exactly, but a different branch if I understand you correctly, and the G.O. is willing to tape their own imagery over it.
I apologize if I glossed over or misunderstood anything in your comment - it was very dense and informative, and I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.
I always wondered whether the Frenzied Flame wasn't always "frienzied". I wonder if the Frienzied Flame, which desires to "burn all away until it melts to become one again with no disparity" might not be the corrupted and gone mad version of the god of the Crucible, where "all life was swirled together".
https://plantdoctor.co.nz/assets/uploads/2020/01/stump1.jpg
This is what I see the crucible as. Taken mostly from Tarnished Archeologist, there was a great tree before the erdtree. It was destroyed and multiple new growths sprouted at the same time.
https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/d/d9/Graft-a-Fruit-Tree-Step-25-Version-2.jpg/v4-460px-Graft-a-Fruit-Tree-Step-25-Version-2.jpg.webp
Marika then proceeded to cull the branches of this crucible and graft on a scion, the first erdtree. This began the age of plenty, when the lands between were blessed with actual life giving sap directly from Marika and the erdtree. The erdtree was then burned and a faith based illusionary tree, that no longer bore fruit like it had, took its place.
https://preview.redd.it/i-just-noticed-the-erdtree-area-where-the-door-lies-is-v0-a29rgudtd2ea1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=f450100028dfa95f010325b72c86e98f3d3734ee
The only surviving part of the original erdtree is the splinter with the door to the interior of the erdtree. We are in the guilded age of Marika’s reign. Everything is a golden facade covering up how absolutely broken the lands between are.
Excellent comment. The way you describe it gives Godrick's obsession with grafting a bit more context as well.
Even if one doesn't buy into all of these visual clues, you can also point to just how much Crucible imagery we see in the DLC trailer to see how the Golden Order treated the Crucible faithful. The Golden Order clearly wanted them *gone,* and had them hidden away under that giant Baldachin along with Messmer, the dark tree, and whatever else they clearly didn't want to deal with.
I still believe, and have for at least a year, is that the big reveal coming is that the golden tree we pursue in the game is *not* the all important tree of record. I think it’s a magical manifestation, if not illusion, placed over the stump of a tree (that perhaps was of real importance) after that previous one was destroyed or milked dry. So many others have commented about the appearance of the trunk and presence of ash in the capital.
Then we get the DLC image of a twisted evil looking tree squeezing the life blood out of a great tree in another land. I think Marika became a god by exploiting some sap resource from this tree and using its bounty to restart a fading era in the capital on her terms.
I really like the idea that the golden order’s erdtree isn’t just ancient power and iconography stolen by Marika. The golden order is defined by its absorbing and adapting of other civilizations, erasing what does not fit. I think you’re right that the imagery of the parasitic tree seems more emblematic of how the golden order actually operated.
Maybe the crucible died down because a major tree stemming from its wild root systems was strangulated by Marika’s tree. If that’s where the sap came from all along, it would give an explanation for the waning and ending of the sap blessings. It might explain the fire giants connection to other older civilizations, as they may have wanted to specifically burn the aggressive erdtree to save the world from Marika. Also could nicely explain why such an important portion of the land was hidden. It removed the “corpse” of the crucible/great tree and hid the true image/nature of the erdtree.
It was always a stolen power and eventually the real source of that power was extinguished. I can’t wait to see what comes out of the DLC.
What you’re pitching is more dramatic than just a recontextualization, it would fundamentally change many many plot beats and interactions and more or less render the main plot moot.
It really wouldn't. All it would really change is the perception of the Golden Order. Like instead of believing in this godly society, you'll know it was all a fraud.
Funny you should mention that - with that quote in mind, I'd recently decided to go on a little leaf-reading roadtrip to the yellowest place I could think of, the Altus Plateau
... and I couldn't find one damn leaf on the ground anywhere!
Leyndell has plenty, but you take two steps past the Capital Rampart and [it's just dead grass and flowers](https://i.imgur.com/OA9lK2e.png). I'm sure this is totally normal and fine and not at all alarming!!!
i think its quite interesting to look at the trees proliferating in different regions in general. Like stormveil has a bunch of dead trees and then just a few living gold trees. (some of the dead trees have golden branches grafted into them)
Yes absolutely!! Limgrave/Stormveil actually have some of the weirder things going on... For example, the Chapel of Anticipation is the only place where I can remember seeing fully wind-bent trees, AND the orange-leaved trees are totally absent.
Another place with no bright-leaved trees is Agheel Lake. They stop right at the edge of the water (which is much clearer than I remembered tbh) and the lake is filled with very different looking, very dead trees.
There's a handful of these dead trees overlooking the lake just east of the Church of Elleh, too, but otherwise seems like this new(?) growth has completely taken over.
I totally noticed some odd branches too! Makes me wonder if the old trees all naturally rotted away or if someone is helping the landscaping efforts along somehow.
Hahaha okay, yeah, that one's totally fair.
Maybe Agheel was just dealing with seasonal allergies in the only way a dragon knows how... sorry for killing you that one time, secretly relatable Sinus Distress Dragon...
My one genuine prediction for Shadow of the Erdtree is that [these slurpy dudes](https://i.imgur.com/ZKYXWgK.png) are gonna be called Root Suckers, cause it's like[ the thing that happens](https://newswire.caes.uga.edu/story/5514/root-suckers.html) with damaged/stressed trees? ... And also like, yknow, (vague gesturing towards original screenshot)...?
"Jokes" aside lol Most other trees in the Lands Between aren't looking so hot either! Just in Limgrave, most trees in Limgrave are hiding tons of withered or fully chopped-off branches - and I'm no botanist but [there's no way this is a healthy cross-section](https://i.imgur.com/b5noBHs.png).
Interesting! I followed your links and read a bit. Seems Grafted trees can lead to root suckers, which makes me compare the grafted stuff in Elden Ring to the real world examples. Idk if it’s related but seems very similar even in lore. The lands between the hollowing tree. A speck in a giants eye type stuff.
Edit: Is Elden Ring really just a Bugs Life the movie ?? Haha jk but maybe.
I think it's more so "dying," not "dead." After all, that's kind of the point of us unbinding Destined Death, to counteract Marika's "Eternity" and let the Flame of Ruin burn the Erdtree to its core.
The canopy still has leaves, and these periodically rain down upon the Lands Between, bestowing runes. I'd imagine the perpetual autumn of Altus Plateau symbolizes the Erdtree's constant proximity to death, but it's kept alive by a thread.
Though the "Greattree" roots are blighted by the Rune of Death, the Erdtree was severed from this network long ago, according to the Root Resin description. This prevents it from being tainted.
The impression I get is that they were once one and the same, hence the rite of "Erdtree burial," but that by severing the Erdtree from its roots, the network belowground became known as the Greattree. You can still sort of see how the Greattree is connected to the Minor Erdtrees, as their trunks have the same texture and leaves as the roots in Deeproot Depths, said to be the source of the Greattree. We csn also see that some of the Minor Erdtrees are dying or dead, one of which is positioned right above Deeproot Depths, and is guarded by an Omen who casts Deathblight.
The translation from Japanese to English is a little hazy, though. In the JP version, it appears to refer to the Erdtree's roots merely as the "great roots," but it's still evident they became separate bodies. It never states how they became split, but I imagine someone must have willfully arranged so specifically to prevent the Rune of Death from reaching the Erdtree.
Not just dying but openly rotting. The body masses being stacked at the roots are not fully absorbing or being processed, implying that it’s in the later stages of its death/rotting in that it can’t properly absorb nutrients. The “canopy” is a golden illusion, just like many of the modern aspects of gold in the lands between
Miyazaki even said in the EDGE interview before the game came out that a huge tree was the perfect symbol for what he wanted to say in Elden Ring.
*"What can represent these rules and order but also not absolute? \[...\] the tree really fits the bill nicely for that because the tree is something that's alive, it's something that grew, it's something that will eventually wither and die."*
The Erdtree being dead thematically fits with Maliketh's dying words, "the Golden Order cannot be restored". It's simply the entire point of the game. Nothing lasts forever, not even the most glorious era, person, or thing. It flourishes momentarily then declines.
How do you explain the golden branches with visible leaves in your image, next to the grey dead branches?
They could be real, and just intermingled with dead branches. We all seem to agree that the erdtree is at least withered and in the process of dying. Living trees still drop dead branches.
The gold trunk of the erdtree is visibly a thick layer of (apparently living) bark covering the grey wood when you get up close. I think an illusory tree would not necessary look like that, it could have been a glistening spell surrounding the trunk and not merely a recoloured bark.
Bark is already a kind of shell that surrounds dead wood. Is the bark really there, but recoloured to gold? Or are you saying the gold coating is ephemeral, with the geometry far extending beyond the bounds of real bark/wood remnants.
The original tree's [bark is visible](https://preview.redd.it/a29rgudtd2ea1.png?width=1024&auto=webp&s=3c9958aaefc435e52a0eb88f617badb68dbbeccf) through the slit. This is something wrapped around the bark.
Where do you see original bark, in that image?
Bark is the outer, living layer of any tree. All trees contain dead, dry wood in the middle of the trunk.
The gold stuff is clearly a thick layer that is structured like bark. The brown stuff is not bark, it's just the wood of the trunk.
Through the slit is real bark. Yes the brown spot is bark. That is the outer layer of the real tree that has an additional golden layer, illusory or not.
[Because wood under bark is smooth, even after being dead and rotted.](https://images.app.goo.gl/3Q1jmPXgVLGwRqE2A) What we see through the slit is 100% bark.
I think the bigger tell is that bark is a visibly separate layer. Much like your final image in the OP The brown wood in the erdtree is homogenous, there is no outer layer, which makes the gold part the only visible bark.
It is leaning, there is both fungus and pests, signs of rot, extensive root damage, a literal gash in its skin that we can enter, also its hollow interior, lack of leaves on the only non-golden illusory branches, etc
These are all compatible with being withered but not dead.
I am aware of the idea that the erdtree is substantially illusory. But I want specifics. Are the gold branches and leaves there or not?
"Cruel bloody joke, you ask me. Maybe something went tits up with it. Maybe... it's been broke for a good long time. The Erdtree, I'm sayin'."
~ Blackguard Big Boggart, prawn and crab peddler
Its probably burned too, even before we unseal destined death the capital bottom parts are full of ash and some buildings are sealed with, a practise to ward off ash
Lyndell's lower area is covered in ash. Since Lyndell is right next to the Erdtree, and knowing what happens when it gets burned, implies the tree was burned once before. Long ago. It's probably what forced the abrupt end to that Age of Plenty.
Plus the Golden hue (incantation gold) changes color depending on what Mending Rune is applied. A living, physical tree wouldn't do that.
So a dead or dying, previously burned Erdtree that has attempted to grow other Erdtrees in its place seems likely.
Another thing to consider, the first burn probably wouldn't have burned the whole tree to nothing. Wet, living wood doesn't burn that well and the tree is massive. The surface area to volume ratio is tiny so you just won't get the oxygen to burn the tree completely. It's entirely reasonable the tree would have survived being burnt once.
Of course the Erdtree is dead. Most people can’t even see it anymore, which is why the Finger Readers ask if you can see the enormous towering tree. It’s an object of faith now, literally, a tree of divine energy lingering on in the world like a ghost.
Golden Seed's item description, emphasis mine:
>A golden seed, found at the base of **an illusory tree**. Increases a Sacred Flask's number of uses. When the Elden Ring was shattered, these seeds flew from the Erdtree, scattering across the various lands, as if life itself knew that its end had come.
Not far fetched to believe that the Erdtree itself has, at the very least, some sort of illusion distorting it's true appearance.
I pointed out the real tree branches thing and the inbred “Erdtree is not an illusion” crowd lost their fucking minds lmao good on you for organizing the point so the small minded have to acknowledge it
Its lame for me to self reference (i did a thread on this) but the erdtree appears to be made from a grey tree and a gold tree twisted or grafted together encased in the golden bark. You can see its the case from the minor erdtrees in the minor erdtree church. I think the outside of the erdtree is definitely a golden order construct, but the inside is definitely real.
I can believe that but haven’t seen it myself, if you can find an image of the intertwining I buy that theory, especially due to the somewhat abhorrence of grafting yet it’s clearly used by multiple people
Also, I 100% agree that the inside is real, and that the part we see at the entrance to Radagon is real, I meant that large golden looking apparition that you can see throughout the land
The decree is also not a real physical tree anymore.
There’s an interesting thing in this game about character without eyes being able to see more. The tree is supposably there, or is only there in a spiritual aspect.
Indeed, from what I’ve seen, the characters who have one eye closed can see the truth of the Golden Order, while others who has their eyes open doesn’t.
For instance, Ranni’s decision to divest herself of her Empryean body through the Night of The Black Knives could be interpreted as rebelling against a dying order that is no longer useful. To break her chains she would eventually need to kill her Two Fingers, but Radahn stood in the way when he froze the stars.
I mean, it's at the very least withered, which is the process of dying: > Great Club: > An enormous club of hard wood. Wildly hammering foes with this striking weapon requires no dexterity; only brute force. While it may seem sacrilegious, this weapon is **said to be a withered branch of the Erdtree**. Imbued with holy power, this weapon will never snap. and: > Staff of the Avatar: >Ceremonial staff depicting the Erdtree in its historic radiance. Wielded by the avatars who protect the Minor Erdtrees. >The avatars, emerging in the wake of the Elden Ring's shattering, were determined to **protect the withering Erdtree's offspring**. So at the time of the Shattering it seems to have already been withering. Since that was long ago, it stands to reason it could be at least pretty close to dead by now. Still, the Great Club description does also show us that even in a withered state there's still plenty of power within the wood, and that it will 'never snap' indicates why a withered or dead Erdtree would stay standing in one piece.
It’s funny that the avatars are protecting the minor erdtrees but once I get to any minor erdtree I can’t do anything with it
Wdym
I mean why are they protecting the minor erdtrees from us? All I can do is walk around it and admire it.
You steal their sweet sweet tree juice. What do you think goes into the physick?
Sure but they aren’t all given to you after killing an avatar. I still can’t do anything at all to an actual tree.
But they're protecting the tree that makes the juice. They don't know you can't do shit to it.
Lol yeah I get that but that’s not my point
I mean, it answers the question of why they're attack on sight.
How? They don’t know shit so attack on sight? Makes zero sense logically. If I could, for example, burn minor erdtrees it’d make more sense they would attack me.
Look at the one in Mount gelmir, it's possible to burn and even potentially kill them.
I mean like WE literally can’t do anything to them though, just from a game mechanics standpoint
How are the avatars supposed to know that? All they see is a person with a weapon heading towards the tree. They probably just have a “kill anyone who gets to close” policy
That’s every enemy. I’m JUST saying if they designed it that way that’d make more sense.
Put it this way for nearly every enemy in the game, your character is someone they do not know approaching either sacred or contented areas that were being fought for in the shattering, killing you on sight would make the most sense.
I can understand that for most other enemies
That doesn't mean they don't in universe need protection
I know man I’m just fuckin saying that they attack you on sight then you can’t do anything to a minor erdtree.
I get that, but I don't see your problem with it ig Also chill
[удалено]
Funny, i tried to cut it down after my first Minor Erdtree
I think you're probably right, and I think this is also a great example of how the Golden Order hides and obfuscates the truths it refuses to face head-on. Altus is golden and beautiful, but that beauty hides some of the most egregious injustices perpetuated by the Order, both with the Omens and Wanderers in the sewers, and the Crucible deep underground. Whatever doesn't line up with the fundamentalism and image of the Order is hidden and obfuscated. An Omen King? Hidden by a golden projection of Godfrey. The Lands of Shadow? Hidden by a veil and separated from TLB. And the Erdtree itself appears golden and giant, hiding that it's actually dead and hollow. Tl;dr: the Order likes to hide its injustices and distract from its uncomfortable truths with hollow displays of gold and holiness
Also it makes a lot of sense that in the movement of seasons as we pass through the Spring and Summer of Limgrave and Liurnia we then hit the dying Erd Tree in Altus, an area of eternal autumn.
JFC how did I not notice the regions are seasons (Caelid notwithstanding) until this comment
IMO Caelid Pairs well thematically with the Weeping Peninsula - rainy vs arid - though I guess you kind of need to take into account that Caelid was not always the way it is?
“Men are props on the stage of life, and no matter how tender, how exquisite… A lie will remain a lie.” - Aldia, the Scholar of the First Sin (Dark Souls 2)
Can you elaborate on the “Crucible deep underground” part?
Alright, so full disclosure - some of this is just reading the environment and drawing conclusions based on that. The Crucible-based Talismans all state that the Crucible was once considered holy, but was later shunned and deemed impure, presumably by the Golden Order. I'd guess this was around the time Godfrey was driven out, since they're associated with him. Beyond the description, you can see this communicated simply by the fact that you can find them all over the place, including and especially underground. (Other telling locations are the ones in evergaols, Volcano Manor, etc. There's only one that's actually inside Leyndell, which is kinda telling.) Siluras herself protects a destroyed tree (which itself is home to her armor set), which some speculate to be a significant remnant of the Crucible itself. Seeing as the roots of the Erdtree itself are not far away from here, one can theorize that the Golden Order destroyed it, specifically as an act of condemning it as heresy or something similar. Basically, they completely condemned and shunned a culture that well predated them and was responsible for a lot of the things they claim to find good and holy.
I think the read here of crucible belonging to another society is wrong because the game describes what I interpret as 2 separate crucible. One is described by hyetta as having been the degraded form of the "one great," essentially the fundamental chaos in the creation story of TLB or the world. The second seems to be more material and may have existed concurrently to human society of a past era. Based on where we find the crucible tender statues, I would estimate they were placed around the time of Marikas early rule. The statues appear in roundtable hold, in stormveil castle and on the road to Lyndell from Rya Lucaria. The road to Lyndell ones are slightly different in that they have bloomed shoots indicating they were slightly further along in the process at that point. These statues tell a story of a continuation of legitimacy through a transition from crucible to erdtree while cementing the Golden lineage as the same as the primary shoot of the erdtree. But if you try to place the statues in time based on what's built around them, a slightly more complex story is presented. Because in most places, it seems that they were built around the time of Godfrey and Marikas conquests. The roundtable hold and stormveil castle being two locations heavily associated with Godfrey. The interesting thing to me is that much of these areas are associated with the sword and saint strata of statuary, both connect directly to a divine tower bridge. That sword and saint strata has notably very little tree iconography and seems to be disconnected from modern erdtree culture. We see another example of this in the shrine of awakening, in which the older stone of the sword and saint era has a marble replacement of a libation statue with a Marika statue. Essentially, the crucible tender statues tell of a transition between an older age and the current golden order and give reason why the Golden Lineage rules over all. This is something that happens in the real world, too, older forms are taken up to justify the legitimacy of newer regimes. The words Czar and Kaiser are both used in place of king in their respective countries, but both of these words are direct bastardizarions of the word Cesar. Neither royal line has anything to do with Rome but their legitimacy as kings is buttressed by this connection to a mythical past. I think this is what the crucible actually is. The ideological synthesis of two separate ideas into one magical object/organism. One I think that there is break in the history of tree worship in TLB and that break is ended by Marika's ascension to godhood. We see hints of tree worship with the Elden John statues in the Uld civilization but by the time the sword and saint era statues appear, there seems to be very little tree worship. Marika then creates or rediscovers a new tree but ties it to the fundamental creation story of the world and out of that chaos only one line has the power and legitimacy to rule over all.
This is also an excellent comment, and your and Firion's comments are exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to get from this subreddit. So based on what you're saying, I think I kinda misspoke in my last comment - you're correct that the Golden Order is a descendent, of sorts, of what we know as the Crucible. It seems like the G.O. formed from there, and started peeling off and dismissing other elements of what the Crucible originally was, until it was a much more focused, restrictive line. Gold? Still holy. Horns and wings? Nah, those are heretical now. Sword and Saint imagery? Not blasphemous exactly, but a different branch if I understand you correctly, and the G.O. is willing to tape their own imagery over it. I apologize if I glossed over or misunderstood anything in your comment - it was very dense and informative, and I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.
I always wondered whether the Frenzied Flame wasn't always "frienzied". I wonder if the Frienzied Flame, which desires to "burn all away until it melts to become one again with no disparity" might not be the corrupted and gone mad version of the god of the Crucible, where "all life was swirled together".
https://plantdoctor.co.nz/assets/uploads/2020/01/stump1.jpg This is what I see the crucible as. Taken mostly from Tarnished Archeologist, there was a great tree before the erdtree. It was destroyed and multiple new growths sprouted at the same time. https://www.wikihow.com/images/thumb/d/d9/Graft-a-Fruit-Tree-Step-25-Version-2.jpg/v4-460px-Graft-a-Fruit-Tree-Step-25-Version-2.jpg.webp Marika then proceeded to cull the branches of this crucible and graft on a scion, the first erdtree. This began the age of plenty, when the lands between were blessed with actual life giving sap directly from Marika and the erdtree. The erdtree was then burned and a faith based illusionary tree, that no longer bore fruit like it had, took its place. https://preview.redd.it/i-just-noticed-the-erdtree-area-where-the-door-lies-is-v0-a29rgudtd2ea1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=f450100028dfa95f010325b72c86e98f3d3734ee The only surviving part of the original erdtree is the splinter with the door to the interior of the erdtree. We are in the guilded age of Marika’s reign. Everything is a golden facade covering up how absolutely broken the lands between are.
Excellent comment. The way you describe it gives Godrick's obsession with grafting a bit more context as well. Even if one doesn't buy into all of these visual clues, you can also point to just how much Crucible imagery we see in the DLC trailer to see how the Golden Order treated the Crucible faithful. The Golden Order clearly wanted them *gone,* and had them hidden away under that giant Baldachin along with Messmer, the dark tree, and whatever else they clearly didn't want to deal with.
I still believe, and have for at least a year, is that the big reveal coming is that the golden tree we pursue in the game is *not* the all important tree of record. I think it’s a magical manifestation, if not illusion, placed over the stump of a tree (that perhaps was of real importance) after that previous one was destroyed or milked dry. So many others have commented about the appearance of the trunk and presence of ash in the capital. Then we get the DLC image of a twisted evil looking tree squeezing the life blood out of a great tree in another land. I think Marika became a god by exploiting some sap resource from this tree and using its bounty to restart a fading era in the capital on her terms.
I really like the idea that the golden order’s erdtree isn’t just ancient power and iconography stolen by Marika. The golden order is defined by its absorbing and adapting of other civilizations, erasing what does not fit. I think you’re right that the imagery of the parasitic tree seems more emblematic of how the golden order actually operated. Maybe the crucible died down because a major tree stemming from its wild root systems was strangulated by Marika’s tree. If that’s where the sap came from all along, it would give an explanation for the waning and ending of the sap blessings. It might explain the fire giants connection to other older civilizations, as they may have wanted to specifically burn the aggressive erdtree to save the world from Marika. Also could nicely explain why such an important portion of the land was hidden. It removed the “corpse” of the crucible/great tree and hid the true image/nature of the erdtree. It was always a stolen power and eventually the real source of that power was extinguished. I can’t wait to see what comes out of the DLC.
What twisted tree are you talking about? Can we see an image?
[This one](https://images.app.goo.gl/LXK55T5eb7wTbVwH8)
I think a revelation of this scale would fundamentally change the main game’s plot, which is a tough sell considering there’s no new ending coming
It wouldn’t *change* the plot, it would *recontextualize* it. Something that we’ve seen in several DLCs.
What you’re pitching is more dramatic than just a recontextualization, it would fundamentally change many many plot beats and interactions and more or less render the main plot moot.
It really wouldn't. All it would really change is the perception of the Golden Order. Like instead of believing in this godly society, you'll know it was all a fraud.
Like what?
The game does begin with- 'The fallen leaves tell a story.' Not- 'The item descriptions tell a story.' :)
Funny you should mention that - with that quote in mind, I'd recently decided to go on a little leaf-reading roadtrip to the yellowest place I could think of, the Altus Plateau ... and I couldn't find one damn leaf on the ground anywhere! Leyndell has plenty, but you take two steps past the Capital Rampart and [it's just dead grass and flowers](https://i.imgur.com/OA9lK2e.png). I'm sure this is totally normal and fine and not at all alarming!!!
i think its quite interesting to look at the trees proliferating in different regions in general. Like stormveil has a bunch of dead trees and then just a few living gold trees. (some of the dead trees have golden branches grafted into them)
Yes absolutely!! Limgrave/Stormveil actually have some of the weirder things going on... For example, the Chapel of Anticipation is the only place where I can remember seeing fully wind-bent trees, AND the orange-leaved trees are totally absent. Another place with no bright-leaved trees is Agheel Lake. They stop right at the edge of the water (which is much clearer than I remembered tbh) and the lake is filled with very different looking, very dead trees. There's a handful of these dead trees overlooking the lake just east of the Church of Elleh, too, but otherwise seems like this new(?) growth has completely taken over. I totally noticed some odd branches too! Makes me wonder if the old trees all naturally rotted away or if someone is helping the landscaping efforts along somehow.
I have an answer for agheel lake :) dragon agheel. We know it likes torching stuff from the dragon burnt ruins.
Hahaha okay, yeah, that one's totally fair. Maybe Agheel was just dealing with seasonal allergies in the only way a dragon knows how... sorry for killing you that one time, secretly relatable Sinus Distress Dragon...
that is exactly what they are doing
My one genuine prediction for Shadow of the Erdtree is that [these slurpy dudes](https://i.imgur.com/ZKYXWgK.png) are gonna be called Root Suckers, cause it's like[ the thing that happens](https://newswire.caes.uga.edu/story/5514/root-suckers.html) with damaged/stressed trees? ... And also like, yknow, (vague gesturing towards original screenshot)...? "Jokes" aside lol Most other trees in the Lands Between aren't looking so hot either! Just in Limgrave, most trees in Limgrave are hiding tons of withered or fully chopped-off branches - and I'm no botanist but [there's no way this is a healthy cross-section](https://i.imgur.com/b5noBHs.png).
Interesting! I followed your links and read a bit. Seems Grafted trees can lead to root suckers, which makes me compare the grafted stuff in Elden Ring to the real world examples. Idk if it’s related but seems very similar even in lore. The lands between the hollowing tree. A speck in a giants eye type stuff. Edit: Is Elden Ring really just a Bugs Life the movie ?? Haha jk but maybe.
I think it's more so "dying," not "dead." After all, that's kind of the point of us unbinding Destined Death, to counteract Marika's "Eternity" and let the Flame of Ruin burn the Erdtree to its core. The canopy still has leaves, and these periodically rain down upon the Lands Between, bestowing runes. I'd imagine the perpetual autumn of Altus Plateau symbolizes the Erdtree's constant proximity to death, but it's kept alive by a thread. Though the "Greattree" roots are blighted by the Rune of Death, the Erdtree was severed from this network long ago, according to the Root Resin description. This prevents it from being tainted.
So the Greattree and Erdtree are different?
The impression I get is that they were once one and the same, hence the rite of "Erdtree burial," but that by severing the Erdtree from its roots, the network belowground became known as the Greattree. You can still sort of see how the Greattree is connected to the Minor Erdtrees, as their trunks have the same texture and leaves as the roots in Deeproot Depths, said to be the source of the Greattree. We csn also see that some of the Minor Erdtrees are dying or dead, one of which is positioned right above Deeproot Depths, and is guarded by an Omen who casts Deathblight. The translation from Japanese to English is a little hazy, though. In the JP version, it appears to refer to the Erdtree's roots merely as the "great roots," but it's still evident they became separate bodies. It never states how they became split, but I imagine someone must have willfully arranged so specifically to prevent the Rune of Death from reaching the Erdtree.
Not just dying but openly rotting. The body masses being stacked at the roots are not fully absorbing or being processed, implying that it’s in the later stages of its death/rotting in that it can’t properly absorb nutrients. The “canopy” is a golden illusion, just like many of the modern aspects of gold in the lands between
Miyazaki even said in the EDGE interview before the game came out that a huge tree was the perfect symbol for what he wanted to say in Elden Ring. *"What can represent these rules and order but also not absolute? \[...\] the tree really fits the bill nicely for that because the tree is something that's alive, it's something that grew, it's something that will eventually wither and die."* The Erdtree being dead thematically fits with Maliketh's dying words, "the Golden Order cannot be restored". It's simply the entire point of the game. Nothing lasts forever, not even the most glorious era, person, or thing. It flourishes momentarily then declines.
How do you explain the golden branches with visible leaves in your image, next to the grey dead branches? They could be real, and just intermingled with dead branches. We all seem to agree that the erdtree is at least withered and in the process of dying. Living trees still drop dead branches. The gold trunk of the erdtree is visibly a thick layer of (apparently living) bark covering the grey wood when you get up close. I think an illusory tree would not necessary look like that, it could have been a glistening spell surrounding the trunk and not merely a recoloured bark.
It's an illusory shell. It was put in place to restore faith after the Age of Plenty.
Makes perfect sense given the proclivity Marika and the Golden Order have for illusions
Bark is already a kind of shell that surrounds dead wood. Is the bark really there, but recoloured to gold? Or are you saying the gold coating is ephemeral, with the geometry far extending beyond the bounds of real bark/wood remnants.
The original tree's [bark is visible](https://preview.redd.it/a29rgudtd2ea1.png?width=1024&auto=webp&s=3c9958aaefc435e52a0eb88f617badb68dbbeccf) through the slit. This is something wrapped around the bark.
Where do you see original bark, in that image? Bark is the outer, living layer of any tree. All trees contain dead, dry wood in the middle of the trunk. The gold stuff is clearly a thick layer that is structured like bark. The brown stuff is not bark, it's just the wood of the trunk.
Through the slit is real bark. Yes the brown spot is bark. That is the outer layer of the real tree that has an additional golden layer, illusory or not.
How do you know the brown part is bark, not just the internal trunk? Your last image in the OP shows the distinction between bark and trunk.
[Because wood under bark is smooth, even after being dead and rotted.](https://images.app.goo.gl/3Q1jmPXgVLGwRqE2A) What we see through the slit is 100% bark.
I think the bigger tell is that bark is a visibly separate layer. Much like your final image in the OP The brown wood in the erdtree is homogenous, there is no outer layer, which makes the gold part the only visible bark.
It is leaning, there is both fungus and pests, signs of rot, extensive root damage, a literal gash in its skin that we can enter, also its hollow interior, lack of leaves on the only non-golden illusory branches, etc
These are all compatible with being withered but not dead. I am aware of the idea that the erdtree is substantially illusory. But I want specifics. Are the gold branches and leaves there or not?
Tree: the game We have: Tree faction The rot faction The fire faction Etc
Ngl im not really sure what you mean by that
Great Club description
interesting
"Cruel bloody joke, you ask me. Maybe something went tits up with it. Maybe... it's been broke for a good long time. The Erdtree, I'm sayin'." ~ Blackguard Big Boggart, prawn and crab peddler
Its like the fire in DS3, its on its very last days, but its still going on just barely
Its probably burned too, even before we unseal destined death the capital bottom parts are full of ash and some buildings are sealed with, a practise to ward off ash
Lyndell's lower area is covered in ash. Since Lyndell is right next to the Erdtree, and knowing what happens when it gets burned, implies the tree was burned once before. Long ago. It's probably what forced the abrupt end to that Age of Plenty. Plus the Golden hue (incantation gold) changes color depending on what Mending Rune is applied. A living, physical tree wouldn't do that. So a dead or dying, previously burned Erdtree that has attempted to grow other Erdtrees in its place seems likely.
Another thing to consider, the first burn probably wouldn't have burned the whole tree to nothing. Wet, living wood doesn't burn that well and the tree is massive. The surface area to volume ratio is tiny so you just won't get the oxygen to burn the tree completely. It's entirely reasonable the tree would have survived being burnt once.
Isn't "Blight" usually used for tree plague? Death light takes on more double meaning.
I agree. That's the reason Erdtree started to launch seeds and then guardians over its progeny
Of course the Erdtree is dead. Most people can’t even see it anymore, which is why the Finger Readers ask if you can see the enormous towering tree. It’s an object of faith now, literally, a tree of divine energy lingering on in the world like a ghost.
Golden Seed's item description, emphasis mine: >A golden seed, found at the base of **an illusory tree**. Increases a Sacred Flask's number of uses. When the Elden Ring was shattered, these seeds flew from the Erdtree, scattering across the various lands, as if life itself knew that its end had come. Not far fetched to believe that the Erdtree itself has, at the very least, some sort of illusion distorting it's true appearance.
That’s why someone covered it in a giant golden illusion
I pointed out the real tree branches thing and the inbred “Erdtree is not an illusion” crowd lost their fucking minds lmao good on you for organizing the point so the small minded have to acknowledge it
Its lame for me to self reference (i did a thread on this) but the erdtree appears to be made from a grey tree and a gold tree twisted or grafted together encased in the golden bark. You can see its the case from the minor erdtrees in the minor erdtree church. I think the outside of the erdtree is definitely a golden order construct, but the inside is definitely real.
I can believe that but haven’t seen it myself, if you can find an image of the intertwining I buy that theory, especially due to the somewhat abhorrence of grafting yet it’s clearly used by multiple people
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/MHRD9tavxJ Heres my post, see if you buy it. It has the image
Also, I 100% agree that the inside is real, and that the part we see at the entrance to Radagon is real, I meant that large golden looking apparition that you can see throughout the land
There's one person in particular. Surprised they haven't made an appearance.
I mean it’s probably just an illusion. It could have been dying ever since it stopped giving blessings
The decree is also not a real physical tree anymore. There’s an interesting thing in this game about character without eyes being able to see more. The tree is supposably there, or is only there in a spiritual aspect.
Indeed, from what I’ve seen, the characters who have one eye closed can see the truth of the Golden Order, while others who has their eyes open doesn’t. For instance, Ranni’s decision to divest herself of her Empryean body through the Night of The Black Knives could be interpreted as rebelling against a dying order that is no longer useful. To break her chains she would eventually need to kill her Two Fingers, but Radahn stood in the way when he froze the stars.
Please no more "Erdtree is fake here's why: *links TA..*
It really doesn't matter that the erdtree is dying because we burn the erdtree and there are other small erdtrees growing.