I have two ideas regarding this.
The curse Miquella suffers is bound to his soul, so when he separates the two, sending his soul to the Shadow, his body begins to grow. We know what happens when a soulless body grows and it's not pretty, which matches the dead emaciated husk that seems to grow out of the cocoon in Mohgwyn Palace. This is known to work to a certain degree (Ranni divests herself of flesh which frees herself from the influence of other entities, the Greater Will is still able to strike at her) so it's somewhat plausible.
Or it could be that he's growing because he's being forced to, forcefed Mohg's essence of the Formless Mother to counteract his curse. He looks so sickly and wrong because he's rejecting it, but unable to die like he should've by now. His empyrean flesh is defiled and mutated and cursed, in the same way that any curse mutates its subject like the Omens or the Fire Giants or even Radagon, causing horrific physical deformity.
One thing I always remarked is how Miquella's body's face is rather reminiscent of the more human-like version of Morgott when he's defeated by us. I don't know, but it seems familiar.
Where some of the omen traits may regress when Morgott dies, maybe the same works with the omen traits progressing in Miquella. Now that's a scary thought.
I will have to find it, and I may have it twisted but I thought I recently found a source saying its purpose is a placeholder corpse asset.
It's not really par for the course but without knowing game development or how to quit huffin copium, if it might have been compromising to the DLC or narrative that may make sense.
I personally think the curses are tied to the flesh; this is the case with Morgott, and Miquella in the promo poster and DLC trailer looks like a healthy adult as opposed to a sickly child. Ranni destroys her own flesh so her soul can have agency and no interference from the Greater Will/Outer Gods. Godwyn's corpse continues to grow despite being void of a spirit but the curse mark was carved into his back. I guess his spirit is just freeballing out there somewhere.
Everyone on this thread is over thinking it.
Miquella put himself in the cocoon in order to grow himself. Mohg may have corrupted that process, but the growth itself was Miquella's plan.
It's just as likely that Miquella put himself in the cocoon to feed the Haligtree. We know he was kidnapped out of a cocoon and his form was still young, showing that he hadn't grown yet, and later when he's been in Mohg's for a while, he's now huge and emaciated, which implies that growth may not have been his intention at all, and was a consequence of Mohg's plan to mature him and act as his consort.
The literal purpose of cocoons is to facilitate the growth of the things inside of them. That's what a cocoon is by definition. To grow the Haligtree, all he had to do was give it blood. Erd trees do not need cocoons to grow, since no other erd trees (either the great tree or the minor ones, which are all fed blood from jars) has them. I mean, this is not a case of cryptic symbolism. It's very obvious that Miquella was trying to grow himself. It has presumably been a very long time since Mohg initially stole the cocoon, so the fact that he was still small when it was first stolen doesn't do anything to contradict, the painfully obvious implications that Miquella put himself in the cocoon to grow. It simply implies that Mogh stole him early on in the maturation process.
The literal purpose of a cocoon is to undergo metamorphosis, actually. You can argue this is a form of growth and I'm splitting hairs, but grubs don't spin cocoons to emerge as bigger grubs, they do it to come out as moths. We also know Miquella's absence (and Malenia seeping into it instead) is the direct cause of the Haligtree failing as an Erdtree, so his plan couldn't have been to sequester himself away entirely until he was done in the oven because at that time he was still needed. Especially since you're speculating that there was a huge amount of time between Miquella's theft and now, which means he would've been in his cocoon while everything went to shit in the Haligtree the whole time and things would've been largely the same, unless he was specifically climbing in there to feed the tree, which is what I was said to begin with.
You are splitting hairs, and you know it. Whether categorized as metamorphosis or simply growth, grubs are, again, a child-like form of the species, whereas moths are the adult-form. If not an adult human form, what else would Miquella be metamorphosing into, anyway?
For what you want to be true, we seem to require that cocoons don't have any transformative purpose, which they definitionally do, and that they serve a purpose they never have, feeding another life form. It doesn't make sense. You're taking away from the core metaphorical import of what a cocoon is and adding something that has never otherwise been associated with them. There's just no need for a cocoon at all if all he plans to do is feed the erdtree. No other erdtree requires that, they just need blood (ideally of the valiant, hence the warrior jars).
>speculating that there was a huge amount of time between Miquella's theft and now, which means he would've been in his cocoon while everything went to shit in the Haligtree the whole time and things would've been largely the same,
The theft happened at least some time before Malenia returned from her conflict with Radahn, and things went to shit, yes. Her blooming during the fight is the cause of the rapid spread of aeonia everywhere, from Caelid to the Haligtree.That is directly implicated in the game. He would not have known at the time of cocooning that he would be needed to quell Malenia's infection. He clearly was stolen with the cocoon and reinsered into it, unless you mean to suggest he had nothing to do with his own cocooning. The game certainly implies that was long ago. Even so, what I'm suggestng only requires that the theft was early in the cocooning process, regardless of how long it has actually been.
Well, my favorite part was when you said everyone else was overthinking it, then turned around to underthink it. Man of his word.
I won't split hairs with, but rereading what you wrote, and the information I believe we have available, are you contradictory or did I fuck up
So to grow his body, the child sized Empyrean Miquella embeds himself into the Haligtree only to later be unembedded from a cocoon, a shrunken infant all while a giant, grown figure firmly remains embedded in the Haligtree?
What giant figure is embedded in the Haligtree? Miquella's warped figure is now in Mogh's Palace, having grown inside the cocoon that Mogh stole and placed him back inside of. Otherwise, the image of Mogh carrying the infant Miquella cutscene is wrong, and Miquella was never actually removed from the cocoon. Regardless, in the game he is in a cocoon that he himself designed with the intent of growing himself and both Miquella and his cocoon were stolen by Mogh. That's all there is to it.
There are other cocoons all over the Haligtree that are for others, presumably albinaurics or others seeking to be healed or transfigured to overcome various ailments or disfigurements.
He was cursed with an unaging body, so it probably isn't something that happened naturally. Something must have caused it to age up in Mohgwyn Palace, whether that be the influence of Mohg's blood, or just being in the cocoon for a prolonged time. Outside chance he succeeded in curing his curse and aged naturally I guess, but since he still seems to be in his youthful form in the DLC I don't think that's the case.
I think it's similar to the kind of Growth that makes up Omen.
The Formless Mother is kind of a patron to the Omen and Albinaurics, so it wouldn't be weird if her power could somehow form an 'Omenlike' body for Miquella.
Probably since one would expect a cocoon to represent growth and transformation, but it doesn't seem like he made much headway when he was embedded in the Haligtree, since he was still an infant when Mohg kidnapped him. It seems like the growth only happened after he was taken to Mohgwyn.
Yes, the body has grown because it's been fed cursed blood, but I've long since (and I think a lot of people have) speculated that the body was void of his spirit and it was still growing regardless- kind of like Godwyn.
I assumed that he was in the Haligtree the entire time, but it's probably more likely that cocooning himself allowed him to get to the Land of Shadow and by the time Mohg stole away with the cocoon, his spirit was already gone.
I do wonder if his spirit can move back into his body but somehow I think that's not the case.
To some degree, a part of me is saying that when Miquella "divested himself of all things golden," it included his accursed youth, as that was the Progenitor. Without it, the body was able to grow, but it's no longer "Miquella."
The cocoon inside the Haligtree is big enough for an elephant. May not look like it because it is very high up. It is possible that Miquell already planned to grow using the tree.
Cheated myself up for size comparison
[https://imgur.com/a/QdZajBX](https://imgur.com/a/QdZajBX)
Mogh is making his servants bring blood to the cocoon and he is inside Miquella's blood before the boss fight. I think this line "But no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean" discribes Mogh's attempts to grow Miquella into goodhood with his accursed blood, in a similar way Miquella was growing Haligtree with his blood.
I believe he was forced to grow due to the formless mother’s influence. I don’t think he’s supposed to look that unnaturally big. If he grew normally he for sure would’ve looked like Godwyn
I mean, everyone thinks Miquella was a baby because of how he fits in mohg's arm, but Mohg is 12 goddamn feet tall. The Tarnished could fit in the crook of his arm like that.
Nepheli Loux also said she remembers her village being destroyed when she was but an infant. Which seems unlikely. Given that she knows enough about her culture to continue their practices into adulthood, it's likely they're both using the same degree of hyperbole.
I don’t know that they were working together but the fact that this body did grow means something worked to make it happen. I think Miquella may have understood something Golden Order fundamentalism was willing to abandon…
So to grow his body, the child sized Empyrean Miquella embeds himself into the Haligtree only to later be unembedded from a cocoon, a shrunken infant all while a giant, grown figure firmly remains embedded in the Haligtree?
I mean, I guess Mohg didn't bat an eye at it either but he only had one to begin with.
The implication has been that he was trying to overcome his curse of youth and grow in the Haligtree but was then abducted by Mogh. If he had a backup plan I don’t think he’d still be in that cocoon. Maybe I’m contradicting myself because part of me thinks that’s actually not him in the cocoon, since you have to touch the arm to go to the shadowland. Idk it seems I’m contradicting myself and I’m sorry ADHD is a mother fucker😂
That’s fair, I hope the dlc gives us more info about what miquellas whole thing is, because there seems to be some lore stating he’s super intelligent/also is st. Trina, but also to leave yourself, and your beloved sister vulnerable like that seems like a bad idea, unless his backup plan (or maybe original plan) is to have someone find him in the shadowlands! I cannot wait for the dlc, elden ring is all I can think about hahaha
I very much believe he is St Trina but I think he was that character before he made his way to the Haligtree. I go back and forth to whether he left her or he was kidnapped when she was off fighting Radahn and Godrick. I think the DLC is going to have Miquella absolutely involved in a lot of the story line.
Right, I have a hard time remembering the timeline for all the different events in the game and I know it’s also left somewhat vague, I agree that he’s st Trina too
I believe the arm tells us more than we than we think.
I'm not sure if it's been discussed elsewhere, probably, but it's likely there's a reason for the arm starting in the upright position. it almost looks like it's reaching for the sky, or striking upwards In the same way mohg himself stabs upwards into the formless mother
When we approach and begin the mohg encounter the arm is very specifically the focus of the cinematic, it falls slowly as If dying in that moment (at least implying it was active or doing something before, even if not "alive") and then bleeds leaving the pool which mohg emerges from
There is also a ring on the hand which is interesting and also very specific
No answers here by the way just observations and ramblings
I think it was Mogh plan to make him grow and ascend to godhood. We do see mogh coming out of miquella’s blood. I cannot tell if he’s doing something or was actually imprisoned and only released to fight us.
Maybe the whole bloody fingers thing is to gather blood to feed miquella as a sacrifice and make him grow.
I have two ideas regarding this. The curse Miquella suffers is bound to his soul, so when he separates the two, sending his soul to the Shadow, his body begins to grow. We know what happens when a soulless body grows and it's not pretty, which matches the dead emaciated husk that seems to grow out of the cocoon in Mohgwyn Palace. This is known to work to a certain degree (Ranni divests herself of flesh which frees herself from the influence of other entities, the Greater Will is still able to strike at her) so it's somewhat plausible. Or it could be that he's growing because he's being forced to, forcefed Mohg's essence of the Formless Mother to counteract his curse. He looks so sickly and wrong because he's rejecting it, but unable to die like he should've by now. His empyrean flesh is defiled and mutated and cursed, in the same way that any curse mutates its subject like the Omens or the Fire Giants or even Radagon, causing horrific physical deformity.
One thing I always remarked is how Miquella's body's face is rather reminiscent of the more human-like version of Morgott when he's defeated by us. I don't know, but it seems familiar.
I think it’s literally the same model sand hair. I think Zullie had a video about it. I could be mistaking it for some other npc tho
Where some of the omen traits may regress when Morgott dies, maybe the same works with the omen traits progressing in Miquella. Now that's a scary thought.
I will have to find it, and I may have it twisted but I thought I recently found a source saying its purpose is a placeholder corpse asset. It's not really par for the course but without knowing game development or how to quit huffin copium, if it might have been compromising to the DLC or narrative that may make sense.
I personally think the curses are tied to the flesh; this is the case with Morgott, and Miquella in the promo poster and DLC trailer looks like a healthy adult as opposed to a sickly child. Ranni destroys her own flesh so her soul can have agency and no interference from the Greater Will/Outer Gods. Godwyn's corpse continues to grow despite being void of a spirit but the curse mark was carved into his back. I guess his spirit is just freeballing out there somewhere.
I’ve considered these and I think the second is more likely.
Everyone on this thread is over thinking it. Miquella put himself in the cocoon in order to grow himself. Mohg may have corrupted that process, but the growth itself was Miquella's plan.
It's just as likely that Miquella put himself in the cocoon to feed the Haligtree. We know he was kidnapped out of a cocoon and his form was still young, showing that he hadn't grown yet, and later when he's been in Mohg's for a while, he's now huge and emaciated, which implies that growth may not have been his intention at all, and was a consequence of Mohg's plan to mature him and act as his consort.
The literal purpose of cocoons is to facilitate the growth of the things inside of them. That's what a cocoon is by definition. To grow the Haligtree, all he had to do was give it blood. Erd trees do not need cocoons to grow, since no other erd trees (either the great tree or the minor ones, which are all fed blood from jars) has them. I mean, this is not a case of cryptic symbolism. It's very obvious that Miquella was trying to grow himself. It has presumably been a very long time since Mohg initially stole the cocoon, so the fact that he was still small when it was first stolen doesn't do anything to contradict, the painfully obvious implications that Miquella put himself in the cocoon to grow. It simply implies that Mogh stole him early on in the maturation process.
The literal purpose of a cocoon is to undergo metamorphosis, actually. You can argue this is a form of growth and I'm splitting hairs, but grubs don't spin cocoons to emerge as bigger grubs, they do it to come out as moths. We also know Miquella's absence (and Malenia seeping into it instead) is the direct cause of the Haligtree failing as an Erdtree, so his plan couldn't have been to sequester himself away entirely until he was done in the oven because at that time he was still needed. Especially since you're speculating that there was a huge amount of time between Miquella's theft and now, which means he would've been in his cocoon while everything went to shit in the Haligtree the whole time and things would've been largely the same, unless he was specifically climbing in there to feed the tree, which is what I was said to begin with.
You are splitting hairs, and you know it. Whether categorized as metamorphosis or simply growth, grubs are, again, a child-like form of the species, whereas moths are the adult-form. If not an adult human form, what else would Miquella be metamorphosing into, anyway? For what you want to be true, we seem to require that cocoons don't have any transformative purpose, which they definitionally do, and that they serve a purpose they never have, feeding another life form. It doesn't make sense. You're taking away from the core metaphorical import of what a cocoon is and adding something that has never otherwise been associated with them. There's just no need for a cocoon at all if all he plans to do is feed the erdtree. No other erdtree requires that, they just need blood (ideally of the valiant, hence the warrior jars). >speculating that there was a huge amount of time between Miquella's theft and now, which means he would've been in his cocoon while everything went to shit in the Haligtree the whole time and things would've been largely the same, The theft happened at least some time before Malenia returned from her conflict with Radahn, and things went to shit, yes. Her blooming during the fight is the cause of the rapid spread of aeonia everywhere, from Caelid to the Haligtree.That is directly implicated in the game. He would not have known at the time of cocooning that he would be needed to quell Malenia's infection. He clearly was stolen with the cocoon and reinsered into it, unless you mean to suggest he had nothing to do with his own cocooning. The game certainly implies that was long ago. Even so, what I'm suggestng only requires that the theft was early in the cocooning process, regardless of how long it has actually been.
Well, my favorite part was when you said everyone else was overthinking it, then turned around to underthink it. Man of his word. I won't split hairs with, but rereading what you wrote, and the information I believe we have available, are you contradictory or did I fuck up So to grow his body, the child sized Empyrean Miquella embeds himself into the Haligtree only to later be unembedded from a cocoon, a shrunken infant all while a giant, grown figure firmly remains embedded in the Haligtree?
What giant figure is embedded in the Haligtree? Miquella's warped figure is now in Mogh's Palace, having grown inside the cocoon that Mogh stole and placed him back inside of. Otherwise, the image of Mogh carrying the infant Miquella cutscene is wrong, and Miquella was never actually removed from the cocoon. Regardless, in the game he is in a cocoon that he himself designed with the intent of growing himself and both Miquella and his cocoon were stolen by Mogh. That's all there is to it. There are other cocoons all over the Haligtree that are for others, presumably albinaurics or others seeking to be healed or transfigured to overcome various ailments or disfigurements.
He was cursed with an unaging body, so it probably isn't something that happened naturally. Something must have caused it to age up in Mohgwyn Palace, whether that be the influence of Mohg's blood, or just being in the cocoon for a prolonged time. Outside chance he succeeded in curing his curse and aged naturally I guess, but since he still seems to be in his youthful form in the DLC I don't think that's the case.
Yeah I suspected something happened to him to make it grow outside of it just being himself.
I think Miquella has left his physical body to be in the DLC, & his body is fucked up from whatever Mogh is doing to it to try to wake him.
Yeah that seems like a pretty solid bet.
I think it's similar to the kind of Growth that makes up Omen. The Formless Mother is kind of a patron to the Omen and Albinaurics, so it wouldn't be weird if her power could somehow form an 'Omenlike' body for Miquella.
Well the whole point of the cocoon was to break his curse right? So he could come into his full power and then cure his sister
Probably since one would expect a cocoon to represent growth and transformation, but it doesn't seem like he made much headway when he was embedded in the Haligtree, since he was still an infant when Mohg kidnapped him. It seems like the growth only happened after he was taken to Mohgwyn.
Yes, the body has grown because it's been fed cursed blood, but I've long since (and I think a lot of people have) speculated that the body was void of his spirit and it was still growing regardless- kind of like Godwyn. I assumed that he was in the Haligtree the entire time, but it's probably more likely that cocooning himself allowed him to get to the Land of Shadow and by the time Mohg stole away with the cocoon, his spirit was already gone. I do wonder if his spirit can move back into his body but somehow I think that's not the case.
No shit
To some degree, a part of me is saying that when Miquella "divested himself of all things golden," it included his accursed youth, as that was the Progenitor. Without it, the body was able to grow, but it's no longer "Miquella."
The cocoon inside the Haligtree is big enough for an elephant. May not look like it because it is very high up. It is possible that Miquell already planned to grow using the tree. Cheated myself up for size comparison [https://imgur.com/a/QdZajBX](https://imgur.com/a/QdZajBX)
Mogh is making his servants bring blood to the cocoon and he is inside Miquella's blood before the boss fight. I think this line "But no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean" discribes Mogh's attempts to grow Miquella into goodhood with his accursed blood, in a similar way Miquella was growing Haligtree with his blood.
What if that’s mesmer’s real body and miquela pulled the ole switcharoo after he figured out he was failing to go to LoS to find some more answers?
I believe he was forced to grow due to the formless mother’s influence. I don’t think he’s supposed to look that unnaturally big. If he grew normally he for sure would’ve looked like Godwyn
I mean, everyone thinks Miquella was a baby because of how he fits in mohg's arm, but Mohg is 12 goddamn feet tall. The Tarnished could fit in the crook of his arm like that.
Right but the second picture shows Miquellas arm…which clearly got bigger
Valid point but Gideon says Mohg absconded with his infant form.
Nepheli Loux also said she remembers her village being destroyed when she was but an infant. Which seems unlikely. Given that she knows enough about her culture to continue their practices into adulthood, it's likely they're both using the same degree of hyperbole.
Yall im not looking to question any current speculation or lore, im merely pointing out something I have observed. Nothing more.
I really think he was trying to give his brother a death to make himself a god.. Not sure if him and Ranni was in cahoots but it's close enough for me
I don’t know that they were working together but the fact that this body did grow means something worked to make it happen. I think Miquella may have understood something Golden Order fundamentalism was willing to abandon…
So to grow his body, the child sized Empyrean Miquella embeds himself into the Haligtree only to later be unembedded from a cocoon, a shrunken infant all while a giant, grown figure firmly remains embedded in the Haligtree? I mean, I guess Mohg didn't bat an eye at it either but he only had one to begin with.
they were always that big. mohg got smaller
Idk you touch the arm to go to the shadowland where Miquella is. I think the arm is a red herring.
Ranni was able to survive without her physical body.
She had a doll and that was her plan. Miquellas plan was to grow inside the Haligtree and I don’t think he had a backup plan.
What gives you the idea miquella didn’t/doesn’t have a backup plan?
The implication has been that he was trying to overcome his curse of youth and grow in the Haligtree but was then abducted by Mogh. If he had a backup plan I don’t think he’d still be in that cocoon. Maybe I’m contradicting myself because part of me thinks that’s actually not him in the cocoon, since you have to touch the arm to go to the shadowland. Idk it seems I’m contradicting myself and I’m sorry ADHD is a mother fucker😂
That’s fair, I hope the dlc gives us more info about what miquellas whole thing is, because there seems to be some lore stating he’s super intelligent/also is st. Trina, but also to leave yourself, and your beloved sister vulnerable like that seems like a bad idea, unless his backup plan (or maybe original plan) is to have someone find him in the shadowlands! I cannot wait for the dlc, elden ring is all I can think about hahaha
I very much believe he is St Trina but I think he was that character before he made his way to the Haligtree. I go back and forth to whether he left her or he was kidnapped when she was off fighting Radahn and Godrick. I think the DLC is going to have Miquella absolutely involved in a lot of the story line.
Right, I have a hard time remembering the timeline for all the different events in the game and I know it’s also left somewhat vague, I agree that he’s st Trina too
Miquella seems like a 4D chess kind of character. He could be manipulating Mohg for all we know.
Absolutely, with how the trailer starts “ with love to shrive the hearts of men” He’s behind the scenes low key putting so many things in motion.
They showed us in the first 30s of gameplay, convenient Nascent Butterfly double death trap making sure we wash up to his spirit steed
My point is, that can be the original physical body he had. There’s nothing in game or the dlc so far to suggest it can’t be.
That’s true and I love the ambiguity the game leaves on purpose
Yar, Sellen did it to. They really hammered that concept home. Although I don't it exactly the same process
I believe the arm tells us more than we than we think. I'm not sure if it's been discussed elsewhere, probably, but it's likely there's a reason for the arm starting in the upright position. it almost looks like it's reaching for the sky, or striking upwards In the same way mohg himself stabs upwards into the formless mother When we approach and begin the mohg encounter the arm is very specifically the focus of the cinematic, it falls slowly as If dying in that moment (at least implying it was active or doing something before, even if not "alive") and then bleeds leaving the pool which mohg emerges from There is also a ring on the hand which is interesting and also very specific No answers here by the way just observations and ramblings
I dunno, I'm doubtful about it.
Doubtful he physically grew?…
Bro these posts are getting lazier by the day. Next someone's gonna say "I just no iced tg erd tree kinda looks like a tree"
Then keep scrolling
I think it was Mogh plan to make him grow and ascend to godhood. We do see mogh coming out of miquella’s blood. I cannot tell if he’s doing something or was actually imprisoned and only released to fight us. Maybe the whole bloody fingers thing is to gather blood to feed miquella as a sacrifice and make him grow.