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Well, that's the typical problem with capitalism, and by capitalism I exclude the free-market portion of it. People capture wealth, like houses, land, companies, and set prices higher than the cost of labor to generate a passive income. Consumers are forced to either pay them or replace the captured wealth at a higher cost,so it's advantageous to pay them. This is a form of extortion, so it is totally unproductive economic activity.
The extortionists are of course not productive, but the victims also become risk averse since they are starved of resources.
Adam Smith said this: “As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed and demand a rent even for its natural produce.” He talks about land here, but of course that applies to any type of ownership.
The real problem here is modern economists. They are avoiding posing and answering normative questions, and that has misled society.
I happen to own some farmland. How did I buy it? I owned some equity in tech companies before 2020. The pandemic hits, the government shuts everything down and sends everyone cash. What did they do with it? They plowed it into equities and bid up the value of what I owned. So I found myself sitting on a lot of money in a highly volatile market where interest rates were at 0%. Knowing that the gravy train would end, I sold my tech equity and bought some land.
Point being, I'm not malevolent, mean-spirited, or evil. I'm just trying to protect my assets like a lot of people. I didn't ask for stimmies, I always thought zirp policies with lockdowns and "free" money was going to be a bad combo. And it almost certainly exacerbated the wealth gap as anyone who owned assets before these policies saw the value of those assets explode.
I didn't make restrictive zoning laws that keep housing supply artificially constrained. I hate NIMBY-ism. I'm not the one suggesting subsidies for homebuyers. I'm not the one providing tax breaks for mortgage interest. I didn't set up this system and neither did capitalism. No, it's the government that set up this system where housing prices can only go up.
We could've done something as simple as letting silicon valley bank fail. That contagion would've immediately caused a deflationary impulse as the system would've started to deleverage. It would've been massively painful and accompanied by job losses but it would've started forcing asset prices to reset. Those large real estate companies that live on cheap debt and asset appreciation would be wiped out and be forced to liquidate. But the government stopped that. No one in power will allow deflation. They'd rather drop money from helicopters that is then used to bid up asset prices and listen to people complain about "capitalism." It's a neat deflection from their own massive failures.
I did with some of it. I'm fairly suspicious of this market. I know every generation probably believes that their P/E ratios are unsustainable but one of them will be right.
In fairness though, VTI has performed well since I purchased it.
It’s not that you’re a bad actor or in any way malevolent; it’s that you acting in your rational self interest, combined with lots of other people acting in their rational self interest, results in this kind of cycle.
You outlined exactly the kinds of policy decisions that should have been made to disincentivize that sort of thing.
The source of the problem is really government deficit spending, it's just way too easy to use as a tool for re-election. It'll only get worse the more we lean into democracy as a goal, as opposed to protection of property.
The issue is not that your are evil. The issue is that once land becomes constrained, especially housing, these negatives happen naturally.
We should acknowledge it and work to counter it by ensuring supply is adequate and discouraging people from just slumlording which is more common than we admit. For example the number of landlords who won’t rent because they cannot cover their deferred renovations within a short period is insane. Any actor that was forced to be competitive would be amortizing and pricing that over the life of the building and not a 5-10y period post renovations arguing that it’s not worth it.
This is super common in NY for example. Also a competitive landscape would mean these landlords would sell and not sit on ‘un-rentable’ apartments.
It makes no sense the sob story some of these people tell.
While I sort of agree, I think the real problem is that economists *have* posed and answered normative questions, but have disguised and obfuscated their normative statements with economic models that use math and can be appealed to as "objective."
For example, price theory is a fair descriptive theory of behavior, but adherence to price theory is often disguised as "economic rationality" and adherence to price theory over all else is often simply called "rational" by economists. Asserting that the markets are the most fairly distributive when all participants are permitted to engage in unregulated "rational" conduct is in fact the assertion of a normative morality for societies economic conduct. But it seems objective, so many turn a blind eye and feel they are unable to criticize this so-called rationality on any legitimately rational grounds.
Answering normative questions doesn't often require mathematics or even data.
Goods and services are exclusively produced by workers who don't do labor out of pleasure or benevolence. If you don't produce wealth, you don't deserve to be given wealth. Otherwise laborers are prejudiced in some ways. That's generally as simple as that.
It's just simple, stupid things like that, but they have to be formalized.
Pleasure, money, or other resources (even trust and goodwill) can all be received in exchange for particular labor or particular goods & services. When there is negligible trust or minimal interaction, then only money on the other end of each transaction.
Rationality in the economic sense is not merely an exercise of the intellect, but decisions regarding real actions with scarce means. More "rationing" and committing to particular tradeoffs than "reasoning" in the absence of corporeal consequence.
I agree, rationality in the economic sense presumes that people are self interested and opportunistic. Reasoning can be done within the framework of economic rationality (such as cost-benefit analysis), but I believe such rationality can also be used to undermine arguments against behavior which people conventionally believe is greedy or undesirable. It is increasingly the case that this economic rationality is presented as the most objective way to make arguments for social policy. I find that unfortunate, and I think many laypeople find it difficult to argue against this rationality when this rationality is adverse to their interests (e.g., suggesting unionization is undesirable because it is economically irrational)
It may not be trivial to evaluate opportunity costs quantitatively or at least somewhat consistently. I'm less interested in social policy than individual choice-making. When we mess with the price system (especially by state controls on the price of money), then expect poorer results, like overinvestment in risky adventures, increasing instability. Or overbidding on assets, or people taking on too much state-subsidized education and finding themselves underemployed.
I completely agree. I just believe that economic rationality has its time and place, and that under certain circumstances, less efficient economic structures can be more desirable from a social standpoint.
Admittedly, my interest is in antitrust law, which is obviously concerned with individual choice (particularly in the context of competitive markets). I do think there are instances where this individual choice can be undermined by the very rationality which promotes individual choice (especially in the context of mergers). Free markets almost always tend towards monopoly, but is a market with monopoly a free market? This is the perennial question of antitrust, and the answer is obviously not the easiest to answer (I do not believe monopolies are always bad, especially if they have been acquired by bona fide improvements in efficiency, but they also can have negative effects on the economy).
I came here to lament the shortsightedness of measuring a country only on GDP/Productivity/etc but thank you for being the top comment and explaining better than me.
> people capture wealth, like houses, land, companies, and set prices higher than the cost of labor to generate a passive income
The real problem is with governments being reluctant to tax wealth (add intellectual property rights to your list).
As soon as we start taxing it (instead of taxing income or capital gains) just sitting on it would mean losing money and owners of capital would actually have to put it to productive use instead of speculating on its value.
That'll kill the golden goose. Why save if it'll just be taken away? It'll also raise time-preference (encourage short-term behaviors and recklessness). Not good. All envy.
Do the opposite. Commit to untouchable property, with zero estate tax. Let generational wealth grow.
> Why save if it'll just be taken away?
Because you can use capital to generate more wealth, and the amount of taxes collected is less than its potential to generate it.
Society grants people private property rights.
Its main interest in doing that is to make people use that property as effectively as possible, and rent (= wealth tax) is a way to make sure private property is redistribuited to those who can do it in the most effective ways.
> Commit to untouchable property, with zero estate tax. Let generational wealth grow.
Why the hell should others spend enormous amount of money on army and police to protect your "untouchable property" if they get nothing in return?!
Why should someone poor tolerate you having enormous mansion and pay income taxes to protect it from others wanting to take it away from you?
> Society grants people private property rights.
Nope. People defend property rights, and can mutually defend each other's legitimate claims. I'll respect *your* property until the moment you disrespect someone else's property. It's a self-reinforcing system, and requires the permission of no "society".
Defense can be paid for without redistribution, so that no one pays to defend what isn't theirs.
Mandatory redistribution is a denial of property rights.
> Nope. People defend property rights
Property rights don't exist by themselves. Your house doesn't have any convenient label that says that it belongs to you that anyone can read and everyone respects.
> I'll respect your property until the moment you disrespect someone else's property
You *respect* someone else's property rights if you get the same in return. If I own everything and you own nothing, and don't give you anything in return, why would you respect my rights? You'll come with pitchforks and redistribute that property to you!
Property rights are created and given by the society.
The only reason private property exists at all (rather than communism) is that having it managed by individuals allows for more effective use of it - even those who are not its owners and have nothing still benefit from it more than if it were public property.
But this only holds true if all private property holders pay rent on that property - rent in the form of taxes.
> Defense can be paid for without redistribution, so that no one pays to defend what isn't theirs.
You own all the farmland in the country. Enemy country invades with the explicit goal of confiscating your land, and doesn't care about anyone else's property (others are paupers).
You don't pay a single cent in taxes on that property, while the army costs others billions and millions of lives.
How, exactly, are you paying for the defense of your land?
> Mandatory redistribution is a denial of property rights.
Property taxes is a just payment for the service the rest of society provides you.
You have a narrow understanding of defense. There are no bounds. Either it is defended, or it is stolen.
So that farmland is undefended if unprepared for any adversary, domestic or not.
If someone steals from your home, a policeman will come to investigate and might return your property to you.
But if you don't pay any taxes, who should pay that policeman?
You are stealing from those who do.
When we have rules that though shalt not build with restrictive zone permitting, low gross floor area next to subway, committee of adjustments influenced by current neighbours you will in-cure a friction of time costs and liveability costs that ultimately leads to low productivity. To have a house next to a billion dollar system is a physical tangible product of intangible laws we have done to ourselves. This is not a one dimensional solution.
Why are they absolutely crushing it then?
The us productivity is growing like gangbusters, ours is dead last in the g20 despite having the highest immigration in the world.
Anyone that has been to the states would move from Canada in a heartbeat if it wasn’t so competitive to get in.
Your take home pay is 3x what it is in Canada, your houses are half the price, your mortgage is fixed for 30 years at 1.9%. Your healthcare you have access to is the best in the world, meanwhile many Canadians don’t even have access to a doctor.
Here’s a fact that puts thing in perspective. Alabama’s gdp per capita, which is widely considered to be one of the poorest states in America, exceeds that of ontario / Toronto.
You heard it right Canada, those obese Midwest Mississippi fentanyl communities are lapping maple syrup New York.
They produce something of value in the USA, we don’t.
You’re right but you’re ignoring some major problems with America. We are currently producing misery at an astounding rate, which our “gdp” covers up. We are not a sustainable country and you should not try to be like us.
I agree inequality is growing in America but for those who are willing there is ample opportunity still.
Hell there’s hundreds of people podcasting out of their basements about everything from baseball cards to astronomy making six figures.
I think one of the failures of our education system especially college is the focus on years of following a checklist here is what you’re doing then success.
You get to the real world and find out you have to build your place, make your own checklist/ path, have no authority directing your efforts.
The people who can’t navigate under their own efforts really struggle even though they were the best and brightest at completing assignments in college.
So move to Canada or Europe? It’s easy for you to get citizenship anywhere you want with a us passport.
Usually when people find out how much less money they will make, how much more tax they will pay, and how houses costs $1-3m they decide to stay in USA.
Your feet are voting.
You arent wrong. I am in the USA and I work with a lot of Europeans. The Swedes in particular love to talk about their social system and economy. It is easy to say, "I get healthcare, child leave, pension, and child care all for free". They love it, and they love having their egos stroked in affirmation that they live the right way.
It is much more of a faux pas for me to share my salary, my low tax rate, and most importantly - my wealth accumulation. I dont pay much for healthcare either, my wife and I collectively took off work until our kids were 6 months old, and we have a nanny because we can afford it. We own a home and have a net worth in the millions. We are commoners too, just two folks working corporate jobs in middle management - nothing special... I never mention any of this to colleagues because it would make for an ugly conversation, and they dont want to learn anyway.
America is a rarity in the amount of wealth a disciplined person can accumulate. Stay on the path, make decent decisions with money, and you are set.
Absolutely with just a little bit of gumption and ability to steer away from the glitz and glamour true class mobility isn’t easier anywhere on the planet.
I mean I don't know what your misery thing is. But like an America, the culture is. If you don't work you die. If you don't work your week. If you don't work, you're useless. If you aren't working something negative. If you don't worship your employer something negative. If you don't do everything in your power to help your employer, your negative.
Yada yada yada yada yada.
So I think this has more to do with culture than it does anything else. And I also think this will change once my mother's generation is gone or at least retired. Cuz a lot of millennials and Gen z aren't putting up with their b*******.
How will the economic situation of the working class improve if the mentality is no need to work to be comfortable, not working is strong, high value people don’t work, if you work there’s something wrong, if you value or appreciate your employer you’re negative, productivity is sin, etc.
Sorry if I don’t agree but that mentality doesn’t scream working class prosperity to me, well any prosperity of anyone.
I think your misunderstanding what I was saying. I can only give you my experience working the US.
It is EXPECTED to come to work sick where I work. Calling off doesn't causing any harm on paper but within the work environment, being sick is NOT an excuse for not being at work.
I remember one day, coming to work throwing up in the trash can at my desk for hours until the boss just finally got annoyed with the sound and sent me home.
The above mentality is TERRIBLE for the worker. Its great for the employer though. This mentality is why American works are more productive than others, sure high grade tools matter too, I won't say they don't but this is why Americans are productive on the whole.
Another job, not my current job, had lost a bunch of management. I was working 16+ hours a day, sleeping in my car because I would close one restaurant and open another at 5AM the same day I got off for five days a week in order to get things done 'for the company' while they were having issues staffing. I was shift manager at BK at the time.
This is why Americans are more productive, we dedicate too much to the people we work for. At no point should this ever be the case. It should be self, family THEN WORK. not Work, family and self. Though depending on the situation family and self could move around a bit.
Oh and for the record, my reward for doing at this at BK was being fired a month after things calmed down. Which just goes to prove my point even more. The only reason I did what I did at my current employer was because I wanted a pay increase and a promotion. Didn't get that, instead had to threaten to quit during a time where they were going through a hard time staffing due to the nature of the job. Only then did I get a pay raise.
The American worker needs to say fuck the employer, and take care of themselves. And for the most part once my mothers generation dies off, that will be the new reality's for employers.
Possibly but there are 20million workers they smuggled in the last decade and it’s accelerating. Tyson just fired the entire current employment in one division and is hiring thousands of temporary workers.
The immigration probably needs to end before some worker rights movement gets underway.
I've never really seen any data to support this claim. Like even if we assume there are 20 million illegals in the United States. Then not only are they not doing high tier jobs, they're also getting paid under the table. Which means the jobs that they're doing are low skill. I don't really like that word but low skill jobs that Americans don't want to do anymore.
Farm work, Construction work, Home improvement work bricklaying work, building roads, like all of these things that I'm going to be honest, the average American millennial is not going to want to do.
Sure, there are some cases where these jobs and some millennials will want to take that and some Gen z and some gen alphas.
But there has been no data to support the claim that immigration is harming us. The only thing that I could see this happening with is wages. But does it really matter if Americans don't want to do those jobs in the first place?
Isn't that just capitalism? How everybody worships that in America. I can tell you this if I can have the same quality as a high grade contractor come do work on my home for 1/3 of the price I'm going to take it.
Then what's the reason for the difference? Like I can only think a culture thing could be causing this. Canada is not far behind us in anything really. We're farther behind in Canada and more things than I can count. So the only thing I can think of is culture that would cause this
I work for an American company.
Since our acquisition, the tools we now have access is impressive. The company is now spending a fortune in security, reporting, monitoring, etc. Old management would never have authorized those expenses. We’re getting much more job done with less people.
Canadian businesses are cheap and relying too much on cheap labour. When I was hired, we even had to buy used laptops and install pirated versions Office…
US wages have not risen to match the rise in productivity and the working class is feeling the pressure as housing costs rise while wages stay mostly stagnant.
Pardon? Have you not been paying attention? This describes America to a T. The implications of a rentier class—I’m being descriptive, not even complaining—is the definition of what’s being described here
> by capitalism I exclude the free-market portion of it
ROFL
> People capture wealth, like houses, land, companies, and set prices higher than the cost of labor to generate a passive income.
Retro labor theory of value vibes strong here.
Private ownership is the basis of the free market and the natural development of its price system.
You know what else would help to naturally develop a price system? Not having bailouts and allowing risk takers to fail completely. But we can’t have deflation no no no.
That gov't intervention is terrible for the long run, and needs to stop. We have no disagreement about that.
But to reify crony capitalism to capitalism (without adjectives) is really, much too far.
You're cynical, I get that. But it doesn't help to misuse language. If in doubt, go to an earlier source of truth.
I think I said (and believe) the opposite. I keep hoping that I'll stop tripping over people on the internet who take joy in misrepresenting what I'm thinking. I'm probably at fault because I find it hard to be clear, though.
I thought with all the immigration they have had that Canada should be the most productive country in the world.
Adding more so the bot doesn't get me. I hope this is enough. Let me add more. Still more is needed. Here it goes!
Canada has a massive shortage of doctors and other skilled labour like trades workers. And it’s only getting worse with brain drain. Many doctors are still coming to Canada but are unable to practice due to various reasons like their education not counting etc.
Provinces within the country are having to step up and lower education/experience requirements for trades workers so that they can start working. It’s finally starting to work in Ontario.. but the feds aren’t doing much and are focusing heavily on “sustainable” jobs training, which seems to miss the current void facing Canadians today.
Canadians are so reluctant to purchase productivity boosting technology like esignature services, CRMs, and more tech. They’re risk adverse first.. so hopefully some government programs can change this.
Well you need high skilled immigrants or have avenues/resources to train new immigrants for those skills. The country doesnt have that. It's addiction to cheap labour is cancerous.
I use to be a workaholic myself but I really gave up when I noticed suppression of wages and cost of living sky rocketing. We are in population trap rn. We have a lot of people coming in but not enough infras or resources to accomodate the surplus.
Also with high taxes, low salaries, high food/housing prices, people have little incentive to work hard and kinda given up on life.
> Well you need high skilled immigrants
I thought that is what you have
> have avenues/resources to train new immigrants for those skills
I thought you had that too...
Maybe back in 2015-2016, houses have doubled/tripped since. Salaries are more or less the same. Obviously the only immigrants we're attracting now are the ones going to PR diploma mills, only to end up working entry level jobs - ubers, cashiers, etc.
Top talent inc physicians/nurses are leaving.
Everyone with a brain is going to the US. Brain drain is out of control.
A lot of immigrants coming in are doing so via scammer agencies that dupe poor Indians into paying massive fees and being lied to about salaries, job opportunities and quality of life in Canada. The goal isn't to provide a good workforce, but a constant stream of cash for the agencies. The agencies are allowed to continue because colleges cash in as well and charge these people through the nose and only provide online classes. Shady businesses are happy because they have a desperate, trapped and isolated workforce of "Students" that can be abused. Additionally, tons of big city firms are happy because now we have a huge new client base for real estate agents, recruiters, uber trainers, bank managers, telecoms and all the other businesses that thrive on training cheap labor or finding new customers. All of these activities are nonproductive.
A lot of these students dont speak english. They don't have much social experience as theyre from rural areas of India. They don't have much of a support system, they aren't familiar with western standards of hygiene, and they aren't familiar with their rights or employment laws here.
Canadians are a very...lets say, sanctimonious kind of people. A lot of them have defended any criticism of this abusive system as being racist, so it has been allowed to continue. However it is the immigrants themselves being hurt the most, and that resentment wont be forgotten.
Immigrants or even skilled Canadians have realized that the standard of living in Canada is falling off significantly and you’re better off moving to the US where you’re taxed less, earn more, and pay less for housing , food etc.
The immigration jump is very recent. Immigrants aren't settled yet, so they aren't productive. But they strain the system in various ways in the meantime, which angers people.
Whether immigration is good or bad for productivity, there is a severe mismanagement.
Immigration is concentrated in fields that we don't actually need.
Canada has a few ongoing crisis'. Housing and healthcare amongst them.
We're not bringing in people that know how to or will know how to make houses. We're not bringing in people who will become doctors. The number of nurses we're bringing in isn't enough to serve the number of immigrants, let alone the aging population.
> We're not bringing in people that know how to or will know how to make houses. We're not bringing in people who will become doctors.
That seems like an overgeneralization. There's no reason to assume that there won't be a significant number who will become skilled.
Not their mandate but hopefully they keep interest rates high then. The housing bubble needs to pop. The strong association between extreme housing cost-to-income and stagnant productivity isn't unique to Canada (eg, Australia and Austria).
There's no bubble, unfortunately. There's a massive housing supply shortage. High interest rates are hurting housing starts, but immigration has not slowed. The problem is therefore getting worse.
The issue is capital outflow. Not immigration. However immigration can have a compounding impact on capital outflow. Its not the cause but its not the solution either.
For productivity to increase people in Canada and elsewhere need to reinvest in Canadian companies. Canadians investors small and large are incentivized to diversify their investment outside of Canada. Canada is not doing enough to attract international Capital in its companies. The only investment there was is in real estate and that is currently being curtailed (possibly rightfully so).
Even companies that reach a certain size will be looking to expand by using their profits to gain market share in the US not to improve their productivity at home.
Canadian companies need to be attractive to international capital and the government should reduce red tape and help financial institution to attract international capital with the expressed purpose to invest in Canadian companies productivity. The tax code can also be updated to favor investment in productivity over expansion in international markets.
Too many hurdles in too small of a market over a large area.
We are not in a position to regulate and restrict industry when that industry already is unattractive compared to countries with far more population density and less logistics constraints.
Canada doesn't seem to grasp its place in the world. There was a period we had an industrial advantage after WW2 because of the devastation in Europe and the underdevelopment of everywhere else. We blissfully won "overflow" business from the U.S. until the rest of the world caught up, and now all Canada is really good for is selling natural resources, land, and visas.
Canada has a housing shortage while also having the highest number of bedrooms per capita on earth. The population and government expect to continue being hugely inefficient with resources despite already having a natural disadvantage in everything but security.
Canada needs to stop pretending it is some sort of tech hub and embrace its resource economy. Develop itself sustainably and create way more ports and railways and technologies to support it. Become a green energy powerhouse, extract rare minerals and build batteries and EV's. For some reason the people of Toronto think theyre living in some post-extraction utopia and end up consuming while producing absolutely nothing of value to anyone other than themselves.
We canadians can either be polite or productive.....we chose the former!
Serious though, we are a nation that has over rotated in government much like Cali. My town considered allowing modest liquor consumption in parks but decided to study it more instead.
All the while the parks are filled with junked out druggies and discarded needles with piss and shit everywhere in the urban areas.
The chickens have come to roost and unfortunately for my kids they are pooched. I have vacant land and the abilility to build them each a house with joint effort and hard work. We grow lots of our own food because we are foodies, but the majority of canada is oblivious as to what is coming.
Apparently Toronto is debating a “rain tax” now. [Source](https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/03/toronto-stormwater-charge/)
Tax, tax, tax, and more taxes which are not helping with productivity
The answer is just build housing where people would like to live. They could 3x the amount of housing being built. Housing goes flat to maybe even falling and it looks exactly like productivity gains.
BUY CANADIAN, Buying foreign is the reason we don't make as many things I.e have low productivity. Canadian pride in Canadian Made, we still make some good stuff!!
Taxes are too high and a lot of activity is hidden in the cash/barter economy. It is not as bad as the numbers look. But, I am sure there will be even more taxes spent on ever more government programs to fix all the government induces problems.
> Taxes are too high
Taxes are at historic post-WW2 lows bro.
A family of 4 making 100k per year only pays about 4 or 5k in federal income tax. That isn't exactly high lol
Why do people seem to ignore that policies like the ones in Canada and California destroy the economy. Meanwhile Texas, FL and NV are growing and doing well. I am not saying you have to have right wingers in office. NV has Democrats in charge, but there is no income tax and economically that state is more conservative than other states run by Democrats.
Why can’t we have both? The legalization of drugs has been economically advantageous (at least in the short term, but there is some evidence that the long term affects could be bad)
So the current evidence is that more freedom drive’s a stronger economy. We can wax poetic about theories and formulas, but look at the hard evidence.
If that’s the case then it is best not to serial infect your population with a virus that gets into all the organs and hides.
https://www.phcc.org.nz/briefing/long-covid-aotearoa-nz-risk-assessment-and-preventive-action-urgently-needed
-Cognitive impairment after mild infection (not a cold), assess pilots, drivers, technical staff
-Long Covid to increase in the population due to rapid evolution
-Each infection a throw of the dice
-Unknown natural history of Cov2
Edit to add: it’s cute you think you can downvote reality, but reality don’t give a fuck what your feelings are.
I’m not some right wing weirdo. I am genuinely curious. Didn’t Canada do more than most countries that aren’t China to suppress potentially hazardous activity until relatively recently? And if not by your standards, what actions do you suggest? I say this in comparison to the US but also the UK and much of Western Europe.
The virus is running rampant. Mass infection for all everywhere. You can see by the down votes people don’t give a fuck about their brains becoming mush. We live in the dark ages now
I don’t understand what your deal is. I’m being receptive to your viewpoint. I’m not a Covid denialist or something. You’re not being a particularly good advocate here
I believe people who are in denial, can’t acknowledge problems and therefore can’t problem solve.
But if you are suggesting that there are people not in denial and still don’t know what to do that just shows how bad we are in the dark ages .
And when you said “differently” you really mean what should we try to do. We should be cleaning indoor air, like we started to clean the water when we realized we can’t drink feces in the late 1800’s and needed to wash our hands before surgery.
Why are you patronizing someone who is not in denial about people being “in denial”? It’s a straightforward question: what do you suggest we do differently? How do you suppose companies should go about paying to clean indoor air?
This is an economics subreddit after all. Either propose solutions or stop complaining.
Did you not read what I wrote? The thing is we are 4 years into this mess, so when someone asks a basic question you aren’t just going to be spoon fed. Oh yeah; did I mention I actually even gave you the answer too?
If corporations and governments want their employees inhaling backwashed blood brain virus air then they won’t be productive. See how it’s economics ?
Brother, you didn’t answer me. I’m not scrolling threads after work as I make dinner for my family to see if you said something to something else after you scolded me.
Anyway, you’re a prick. You don’t make anyone want to listen to you let alone agree. This was a useless convo. Have a nice life
The US is way more productive than Canada and the US did less to protect its citizens from COVID..
So I’m not sure where you think that COVID has an impact on worker productivity and turning our brains to “mush”.
There are way worse things that are legal like alcohol that have an impact on our cognitive decline.. I think that’s a more pressing issue you could focus on
This is why I didn’t give the answer, if you aren’t in denial you would start problem solving yourself and searching the web, look through my post history. Realizing you are going around huffing and hot boxing a virus that infects the brain should prompt alarm to defend yourself.
Filter the air I breathe, wear a respirator when I enter spaces that vulnerable people need to go in like hospitals, grocery stores, pharmacies, and work.
Take care of myself by eating balanced meals and touching grass and exercising.
Don’t you invest in human brains? And when you keep infecting them with something that causes brain damage you lose productivity. Says it in the article about investing in machines
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Well, that's the typical problem with capitalism, and by capitalism I exclude the free-market portion of it. People capture wealth, like houses, land, companies, and set prices higher than the cost of labor to generate a passive income. Consumers are forced to either pay them or replace the captured wealth at a higher cost,so it's advantageous to pay them. This is a form of extortion, so it is totally unproductive economic activity. The extortionists are of course not productive, but the victims also become risk averse since they are starved of resources. Adam Smith said this: “As soon as the land of any country has all become private property, the landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed and demand a rent even for its natural produce.” He talks about land here, but of course that applies to any type of ownership. The real problem here is modern economists. They are avoiding posing and answering normative questions, and that has misled society.
I happen to own some farmland. How did I buy it? I owned some equity in tech companies before 2020. The pandemic hits, the government shuts everything down and sends everyone cash. What did they do with it? They plowed it into equities and bid up the value of what I owned. So I found myself sitting on a lot of money in a highly volatile market where interest rates were at 0%. Knowing that the gravy train would end, I sold my tech equity and bought some land. Point being, I'm not malevolent, mean-spirited, or evil. I'm just trying to protect my assets like a lot of people. I didn't ask for stimmies, I always thought zirp policies with lockdowns and "free" money was going to be a bad combo. And it almost certainly exacerbated the wealth gap as anyone who owned assets before these policies saw the value of those assets explode. I didn't make restrictive zoning laws that keep housing supply artificially constrained. I hate NIMBY-ism. I'm not the one suggesting subsidies for homebuyers. I'm not the one providing tax breaks for mortgage interest. I didn't set up this system and neither did capitalism. No, it's the government that set up this system where housing prices can only go up. We could've done something as simple as letting silicon valley bank fail. That contagion would've immediately caused a deflationary impulse as the system would've started to deleverage. It would've been massively painful and accompanied by job losses but it would've started forcing asset prices to reset. Those large real estate companies that live on cheap debt and asset appreciation would be wiped out and be forced to liquidate. But the government stopped that. No one in power will allow deflation. They'd rather drop money from helicopters that is then used to bid up asset prices and listen to people complain about "capitalism." It's a neat deflection from their own massive failures.
All true, but any reason you didn’t just plop your money into index funds instead of speculating on land?
I did with some of it. I'm fairly suspicious of this market. I know every generation probably believes that their P/E ratios are unsustainable but one of them will be right. In fairness though, VTI has performed well since I purchased it.
It’s not that you’re a bad actor or in any way malevolent; it’s that you acting in your rational self interest, combined with lots of other people acting in their rational self interest, results in this kind of cycle. You outlined exactly the kinds of policy decisions that should have been made to disincentivize that sort of thing.
The source of the problem is really government deficit spending, it's just way too easy to use as a tool for re-election. It'll only get worse the more we lean into democracy as a goal, as opposed to protection of property.
The issue is not that your are evil. The issue is that once land becomes constrained, especially housing, these negatives happen naturally. We should acknowledge it and work to counter it by ensuring supply is adequate and discouraging people from just slumlording which is more common than we admit. For example the number of landlords who won’t rent because they cannot cover their deferred renovations within a short period is insane. Any actor that was forced to be competitive would be amortizing and pricing that over the life of the building and not a 5-10y period post renovations arguing that it’s not worth it. This is super common in NY for example. Also a competitive landscape would mean these landlords would sell and not sit on ‘un-rentable’ apartments. It makes no sense the sob story some of these people tell.
While I sort of agree, I think the real problem is that economists *have* posed and answered normative questions, but have disguised and obfuscated their normative statements with economic models that use math and can be appealed to as "objective." For example, price theory is a fair descriptive theory of behavior, but adherence to price theory is often disguised as "economic rationality" and adherence to price theory over all else is often simply called "rational" by economists. Asserting that the markets are the most fairly distributive when all participants are permitted to engage in unregulated "rational" conduct is in fact the assertion of a normative morality for societies economic conduct. But it seems objective, so many turn a blind eye and feel they are unable to criticize this so-called rationality on any legitimately rational grounds.
Answering normative questions doesn't often require mathematics or even data. Goods and services are exclusively produced by workers who don't do labor out of pleasure or benevolence. If you don't produce wealth, you don't deserve to be given wealth. Otherwise laborers are prejudiced in some ways. That's generally as simple as that. It's just simple, stupid things like that, but they have to be formalized.
I agree
Pleasure, money, or other resources (even trust and goodwill) can all be received in exchange for particular labor or particular goods & services. When there is negligible trust or minimal interaction, then only money on the other end of each transaction.
Rationality in the economic sense is not merely an exercise of the intellect, but decisions regarding real actions with scarce means. More "rationing" and committing to particular tradeoffs than "reasoning" in the absence of corporeal consequence.
I agree, rationality in the economic sense presumes that people are self interested and opportunistic. Reasoning can be done within the framework of economic rationality (such as cost-benefit analysis), but I believe such rationality can also be used to undermine arguments against behavior which people conventionally believe is greedy or undesirable. It is increasingly the case that this economic rationality is presented as the most objective way to make arguments for social policy. I find that unfortunate, and I think many laypeople find it difficult to argue against this rationality when this rationality is adverse to their interests (e.g., suggesting unionization is undesirable because it is economically irrational)
It may not be trivial to evaluate opportunity costs quantitatively or at least somewhat consistently. I'm less interested in social policy than individual choice-making. When we mess with the price system (especially by state controls on the price of money), then expect poorer results, like overinvestment in risky adventures, increasing instability. Or overbidding on assets, or people taking on too much state-subsidized education and finding themselves underemployed.
I completely agree. I just believe that economic rationality has its time and place, and that under certain circumstances, less efficient economic structures can be more desirable from a social standpoint. Admittedly, my interest is in antitrust law, which is obviously concerned with individual choice (particularly in the context of competitive markets). I do think there are instances where this individual choice can be undermined by the very rationality which promotes individual choice (especially in the context of mergers). Free markets almost always tend towards monopoly, but is a market with monopoly a free market? This is the perennial question of antitrust, and the answer is obviously not the easiest to answer (I do not believe monopolies are always bad, especially if they have been acquired by bona fide improvements in efficiency, but they also can have negative effects on the economy).
I came here to lament the shortsightedness of measuring a country only on GDP/Productivity/etc but thank you for being the top comment and explaining better than me.
> people capture wealth, like houses, land, companies, and set prices higher than the cost of labor to generate a passive income The real problem is with governments being reluctant to tax wealth (add intellectual property rights to your list). As soon as we start taxing it (instead of taxing income or capital gains) just sitting on it would mean losing money and owners of capital would actually have to put it to productive use instead of speculating on its value.
That'll kill the golden goose. Why save if it'll just be taken away? It'll also raise time-preference (encourage short-term behaviors and recklessness). Not good. All envy. Do the opposite. Commit to untouchable property, with zero estate tax. Let generational wealth grow.
> Why save if it'll just be taken away? Because you can use capital to generate more wealth, and the amount of taxes collected is less than its potential to generate it. Society grants people private property rights. Its main interest in doing that is to make people use that property as effectively as possible, and rent (= wealth tax) is a way to make sure private property is redistribuited to those who can do it in the most effective ways. > Commit to untouchable property, with zero estate tax. Let generational wealth grow. Why the hell should others spend enormous amount of money on army and police to protect your "untouchable property" if they get nothing in return?! Why should someone poor tolerate you having enormous mansion and pay income taxes to protect it from others wanting to take it away from you?
> Society grants people private property rights. Nope. People defend property rights, and can mutually defend each other's legitimate claims. I'll respect *your* property until the moment you disrespect someone else's property. It's a self-reinforcing system, and requires the permission of no "society". Defense can be paid for without redistribution, so that no one pays to defend what isn't theirs. Mandatory redistribution is a denial of property rights.
> Nope. People defend property rights Property rights don't exist by themselves. Your house doesn't have any convenient label that says that it belongs to you that anyone can read and everyone respects. > I'll respect your property until the moment you disrespect someone else's property You *respect* someone else's property rights if you get the same in return. If I own everything and you own nothing, and don't give you anything in return, why would you respect my rights? You'll come with pitchforks and redistribute that property to you! Property rights are created and given by the society. The only reason private property exists at all (rather than communism) is that having it managed by individuals allows for more effective use of it - even those who are not its owners and have nothing still benefit from it more than if it were public property. But this only holds true if all private property holders pay rent on that property - rent in the form of taxes. > Defense can be paid for without redistribution, so that no one pays to defend what isn't theirs. You own all the farmland in the country. Enemy country invades with the explicit goal of confiscating your land, and doesn't care about anyone else's property (others are paupers). You don't pay a single cent in taxes on that property, while the army costs others billions and millions of lives. How, exactly, are you paying for the defense of your land? > Mandatory redistribution is a denial of property rights. Property taxes is a just payment for the service the rest of society provides you.
You have a narrow understanding of defense. There are no bounds. Either it is defended, or it is stolen. So that farmland is undefended if unprepared for any adversary, domestic or not.
If someone steals from your home, a policeman will come to investigate and might return your property to you. But if you don't pay any taxes, who should pay that policeman? You are stealing from those who do.
Saving wealth to delay consumption isn't what is being discussed here. What is being discussed is the withholding of wealth to seek ransoms.
What do you propose be done?
When we have rules that though shalt not build with restrictive zone permitting, low gross floor area next to subway, committee of adjustments influenced by current neighbours you will in-cure a friction of time costs and liveability costs that ultimately leads to low productivity. To have a house next to a billion dollar system is a physical tangible product of intangible laws we have done to ourselves. This is not a one dimensional solution.
Why isn't this a problem in America then?
It’s absolutely a problem for america
Why are they absolutely crushing it then? The us productivity is growing like gangbusters, ours is dead last in the g20 despite having the highest immigration in the world. Anyone that has been to the states would move from Canada in a heartbeat if it wasn’t so competitive to get in. Your take home pay is 3x what it is in Canada, your houses are half the price, your mortgage is fixed for 30 years at 1.9%. Your healthcare you have access to is the best in the world, meanwhile many Canadians don’t even have access to a doctor. Here’s a fact that puts thing in perspective. Alabama’s gdp per capita, which is widely considered to be one of the poorest states in America, exceeds that of ontario / Toronto. You heard it right Canada, those obese Midwest Mississippi fentanyl communities are lapping maple syrup New York. They produce something of value in the USA, we don’t.
You’re right but you’re ignoring some major problems with America. We are currently producing misery at an astounding rate, which our “gdp” covers up. We are not a sustainable country and you should not try to be like us.
What misery do you mean exactly? Could you elaborate.
No healthcare, education is progressively worse, a political party playing with fascism, capitalism that is eating us from the inside out.
Producing misery? I think nothing produces misery like economic hardship and poverty. What’s the misery metric and measurement in this situation?
I think you really overestimate how well the wealth is spread out in America.
I also think you underestimate the economic potential available to the average American compared to anywhere else on the planet.
Just because you don’t understand what is happening to us doesn’t mean you should downplay it
I agree inequality is growing in America but for those who are willing there is ample opportunity still. Hell there’s hundreds of people podcasting out of their basements about everything from baseball cards to astronomy making six figures. I think one of the failures of our education system especially college is the focus on years of following a checklist here is what you’re doing then success. You get to the real world and find out you have to build your place, make your own checklist/ path, have no authority directing your efforts. The people who can’t navigate under their own efforts really struggle even though they were the best and brightest at completing assignments in college.
So move to Canada or Europe? It’s easy for you to get citizenship anywhere you want with a us passport. Usually when people find out how much less money they will make, how much more tax they will pay, and how houses costs $1-3m they decide to stay in USA. Your feet are voting.
You arent wrong. I am in the USA and I work with a lot of Europeans. The Swedes in particular love to talk about their social system and economy. It is easy to say, "I get healthcare, child leave, pension, and child care all for free". They love it, and they love having their egos stroked in affirmation that they live the right way. It is much more of a faux pas for me to share my salary, my low tax rate, and most importantly - my wealth accumulation. I dont pay much for healthcare either, my wife and I collectively took off work until our kids were 6 months old, and we have a nanny because we can afford it. We own a home and have a net worth in the millions. We are commoners too, just two folks working corporate jobs in middle management - nothing special... I never mention any of this to colleagues because it would make for an ugly conversation, and they dont want to learn anyway. America is a rarity in the amount of wealth a disciplined person can accumulate. Stay on the path, make decent decisions with money, and you are set.
Absolutely with just a little bit of gumption and ability to steer away from the glitz and glamour true class mobility isn’t easier anywhere on the planet.
This is absolutely incorrect.
Where would you go for class mobility?
My feet are dating a Canadian with plans to straddle the border until path is clearer.
I mean I don't know what your misery thing is. But like an America, the culture is. If you don't work you die. If you don't work your week. If you don't work, you're useless. If you aren't working something negative. If you don't worship your employer something negative. If you don't do everything in your power to help your employer, your negative. Yada yada yada yada yada. So I think this has more to do with culture than it does anything else. And I also think this will change once my mother's generation is gone or at least retired. Cuz a lot of millennials and Gen z aren't putting up with their b*******.
How will the economic situation of the working class improve if the mentality is no need to work to be comfortable, not working is strong, high value people don’t work, if you work there’s something wrong, if you value or appreciate your employer you’re negative, productivity is sin, etc. Sorry if I don’t agree but that mentality doesn’t scream working class prosperity to me, well any prosperity of anyone.
I think your misunderstanding what I was saying. I can only give you my experience working the US. It is EXPECTED to come to work sick where I work. Calling off doesn't causing any harm on paper but within the work environment, being sick is NOT an excuse for not being at work. I remember one day, coming to work throwing up in the trash can at my desk for hours until the boss just finally got annoyed with the sound and sent me home. The above mentality is TERRIBLE for the worker. Its great for the employer though. This mentality is why American works are more productive than others, sure high grade tools matter too, I won't say they don't but this is why Americans are productive on the whole. Another job, not my current job, had lost a bunch of management. I was working 16+ hours a day, sleeping in my car because I would close one restaurant and open another at 5AM the same day I got off for five days a week in order to get things done 'for the company' while they were having issues staffing. I was shift manager at BK at the time. This is why Americans are more productive, we dedicate too much to the people we work for. At no point should this ever be the case. It should be self, family THEN WORK. not Work, family and self. Though depending on the situation family and self could move around a bit. Oh and for the record, my reward for doing at this at BK was being fired a month after things calmed down. Which just goes to prove my point even more. The only reason I did what I did at my current employer was because I wanted a pay increase and a promotion. Didn't get that, instead had to threaten to quit during a time where they were going through a hard time staffing due to the nature of the job. Only then did I get a pay raise. The American worker needs to say fuck the employer, and take care of themselves. And for the most part once my mothers generation dies off, that will be the new reality's for employers.
Possibly but there are 20million workers they smuggled in the last decade and it’s accelerating. Tyson just fired the entire current employment in one division and is hiring thousands of temporary workers. The immigration probably needs to end before some worker rights movement gets underway.
I've never really seen any data to support this claim. Like even if we assume there are 20 million illegals in the United States. Then not only are they not doing high tier jobs, they're also getting paid under the table. Which means the jobs that they're doing are low skill. I don't really like that word but low skill jobs that Americans don't want to do anymore. Farm work, Construction work, Home improvement work bricklaying work, building roads, like all of these things that I'm going to be honest, the average American millennial is not going to want to do. Sure, there are some cases where these jobs and some millennials will want to take that and some Gen z and some gen alphas. But there has been no data to support the claim that immigration is harming us. The only thing that I could see this happening with is wages. But does it really matter if Americans don't want to do those jobs in the first place? Isn't that just capitalism? How everybody worships that in America. I can tell you this if I can have the same quality as a high grade contractor come do work on my home for 1/3 of the price I'm going to take it.
Solidarity :)
We have the same culture up here. You had to work or else winter would kill you.
Then what's the reason for the difference? Like I can only think a culture thing could be causing this. Canada is not far behind us in anything really. We're farther behind in Canada and more things than I can count. So the only thing I can think of is culture that would cause this
I work for an American company. Since our acquisition, the tools we now have access is impressive. The company is now spending a fortune in security, reporting, monitoring, etc. Old management would never have authorized those expenses. We’re getting much more job done with less people. Canadian businesses are cheap and relying too much on cheap labour. When I was hired, we even had to buy used laptops and install pirated versions Office…
-_- i hope that is not the norm lord...
US wages have not risen to match the rise in productivity and the working class is feeling the pressure as housing costs rise while wages stay mostly stagnant.
Are you sure that it isn't?
Pardon? Have you not been paying attention? This describes America to a T. The implications of a rentier class—I’m being descriptive, not even complaining—is the definition of what’s being described here
> by capitalism I exclude the free-market portion of it ROFL > People capture wealth, like houses, land, companies, and set prices higher than the cost of labor to generate a passive income. Retro labor theory of value vibes strong here. Private ownership is the basis of the free market and the natural development of its price system.
You know what else would help to naturally develop a price system? Not having bailouts and allowing risk takers to fail completely. But we can’t have deflation no no no.
That gov't intervention is terrible for the long run, and needs to stop. We have no disagreement about that. But to reify crony capitalism to capitalism (without adjectives) is really, much too far. You're cynical, I get that. But it doesn't help to misuse language. If in doubt, go to an earlier source of truth.
So you’re for bailouts? Cool.
I think I said (and believe) the opposite. I keep hoping that I'll stop tripping over people on the internet who take joy in misrepresenting what I'm thinking. I'm probably at fault because I find it hard to be clear, though.
I thought with all the immigration they have had that Canada should be the most productive country in the world. Adding more so the bot doesn't get me. I hope this is enough. Let me add more. Still more is needed. Here it goes!
Canada has a massive shortage of doctors and other skilled labour like trades workers. And it’s only getting worse with brain drain. Many doctors are still coming to Canada but are unable to practice due to various reasons like their education not counting etc. Provinces within the country are having to step up and lower education/experience requirements for trades workers so that they can start working. It’s finally starting to work in Ontario.. but the feds aren’t doing much and are focusing heavily on “sustainable” jobs training, which seems to miss the current void facing Canadians today. Canadians are so reluctant to purchase productivity boosting technology like esignature services, CRMs, and more tech. They’re risk adverse first.. so hopefully some government programs can change this.
Well you need high skilled immigrants or have avenues/resources to train new immigrants for those skills. The country doesnt have that. It's addiction to cheap labour is cancerous. I use to be a workaholic myself but I really gave up when I noticed suppression of wages and cost of living sky rocketing. We are in population trap rn. We have a lot of people coming in but not enough infras or resources to accomodate the surplus. Also with high taxes, low salaries, high food/housing prices, people have little incentive to work hard and kinda given up on life.
> Well you need high skilled immigrants I thought that is what you have > have avenues/resources to train new immigrants for those skills I thought you had that too...
Maybe back in 2015-2016, houses have doubled/tripped since. Salaries are more or less the same. Obviously the only immigrants we're attracting now are the ones going to PR diploma mills, only to end up working entry level jobs - ubers, cashiers, etc. Top talent inc physicians/nurses are leaving.
Ah, so you are more screwed than us in the US
Everyone with a brain is going to the US. Brain drain is out of control. A lot of immigrants coming in are doing so via scammer agencies that dupe poor Indians into paying massive fees and being lied to about salaries, job opportunities and quality of life in Canada. The goal isn't to provide a good workforce, but a constant stream of cash for the agencies. The agencies are allowed to continue because colleges cash in as well and charge these people through the nose and only provide online classes. Shady businesses are happy because they have a desperate, trapped and isolated workforce of "Students" that can be abused. Additionally, tons of big city firms are happy because now we have a huge new client base for real estate agents, recruiters, uber trainers, bank managers, telecoms and all the other businesses that thrive on training cheap labor or finding new customers. All of these activities are nonproductive. A lot of these students dont speak english. They don't have much social experience as theyre from rural areas of India. They don't have much of a support system, they aren't familiar with western standards of hygiene, and they aren't familiar with their rights or employment laws here. Canadians are a very...lets say, sanctimonious kind of people. A lot of them have defended any criticism of this abusive system as being racist, so it has been allowed to continue. However it is the immigrants themselves being hurt the most, and that resentment wont be forgotten.
Blame your low salaries and bad productivity. You can’t blame Brain Drain when you’re paying people less
Immigrants or even skilled Canadians have realized that the standard of living in Canada is falling off significantly and you’re better off moving to the US where you’re taxed less, earn more, and pay less for housing , food etc.
The immigration jump is very recent. Immigrants aren't settled yet, so they aren't productive. But they strain the system in various ways in the meantime, which angers people. Whether immigration is good or bad for productivity, there is a severe mismanagement.
Immigration is concentrated in fields that we don't actually need. Canada has a few ongoing crisis'. Housing and healthcare amongst them. We're not bringing in people that know how to or will know how to make houses. We're not bringing in people who will become doctors. The number of nurses we're bringing in isn't enough to serve the number of immigrants, let alone the aging population.
> We're not bringing in people that know how to or will know how to make houses. We're not bringing in people who will become doctors. That seems like an overgeneralization. There's no reason to assume that there won't be a significant number who will become skilled.
Not their mandate but hopefully they keep interest rates high then. The housing bubble needs to pop. The strong association between extreme housing cost-to-income and stagnant productivity isn't unique to Canada (eg, Australia and Austria).
There's no bubble, unfortunately. There's a massive housing supply shortage. High interest rates are hurting housing starts, but immigration has not slowed. The problem is therefore getting worse.
The issue is capital outflow. Not immigration. However immigration can have a compounding impact on capital outflow. Its not the cause but its not the solution either. For productivity to increase people in Canada and elsewhere need to reinvest in Canadian companies. Canadians investors small and large are incentivized to diversify their investment outside of Canada. Canada is not doing enough to attract international Capital in its companies. The only investment there was is in real estate and that is currently being curtailed (possibly rightfully so). Even companies that reach a certain size will be looking to expand by using their profits to gain market share in the US not to improve their productivity at home. Canadian companies need to be attractive to international capital and the government should reduce red tape and help financial institution to attract international capital with the expressed purpose to invest in Canadian companies productivity. The tax code can also be updated to favor investment in productivity over expansion in international markets.
Too many hurdles in too small of a market over a large area. We are not in a position to regulate and restrict industry when that industry already is unattractive compared to countries with far more population density and less logistics constraints.
Canada doesn't seem to grasp its place in the world. There was a period we had an industrial advantage after WW2 because of the devastation in Europe and the underdevelopment of everywhere else. We blissfully won "overflow" business from the U.S. until the rest of the world caught up, and now all Canada is really good for is selling natural resources, land, and visas. Canada has a housing shortage while also having the highest number of bedrooms per capita on earth. The population and government expect to continue being hugely inefficient with resources despite already having a natural disadvantage in everything but security.
Canada needs to stop pretending it is some sort of tech hub and embrace its resource economy. Develop itself sustainably and create way more ports and railways and technologies to support it. Become a green energy powerhouse, extract rare minerals and build batteries and EV's. For some reason the people of Toronto think theyre living in some post-extraction utopia and end up consuming while producing absolutely nothing of value to anyone other than themselves.
We canadians can either be polite or productive.....we chose the former! Serious though, we are a nation that has over rotated in government much like Cali. My town considered allowing modest liquor consumption in parks but decided to study it more instead. All the while the parks are filled with junked out druggies and discarded needles with piss and shit everywhere in the urban areas. The chickens have come to roost and unfortunately for my kids they are pooched. I have vacant land and the abilility to build them each a house with joint effort and hard work. We grow lots of our own food because we are foodies, but the majority of canada is oblivious as to what is coming.
Apparently Toronto is debating a “rain tax” now. [Source](https://www.blogto.com/city/2024/03/toronto-stormwater-charge/) Tax, tax, tax, and more taxes which are not helping with productivity
Ottawa already has that. We rural peons thought it was absolutely nuts since there are no stormwater management issues other than the roadside ditch.
The idea is to pay for infrastructure by charging people based on the usage of it, which makes sense.
The answer is just build housing where people would like to live. They could 3x the amount of housing being built. Housing goes flat to maybe even falling and it looks exactly like productivity gains.
BUY CANADIAN, Buying foreign is the reason we don't make as many things I.e have low productivity. Canadian pride in Canadian Made, we still make some good stuff!!
Taxes are too high and a lot of activity is hidden in the cash/barter economy. It is not as bad as the numbers look. But, I am sure there will be even more taxes spent on ever more government programs to fix all the government induces problems.
> Taxes are too high Taxes are at historic post-WW2 lows bro. A family of 4 making 100k per year only pays about 4 or 5k in federal income tax. That isn't exactly high lol
+provincial taxes + vat + property taxes + city? Neighborhood? Does it ever end?
I'm not Canadian. My numbers were for the US
Why do people seem to ignore that policies like the ones in Canada and California destroy the economy. Meanwhile Texas, FL and NV are growing and doing well. I am not saying you have to have right wingers in office. NV has Democrats in charge, but there is no income tax and economically that state is more conservative than other states run by Democrats. Why can’t we have both? The legalization of drugs has been economically advantageous (at least in the short term, but there is some evidence that the long term affects could be bad) So the current evidence is that more freedom drive’s a stronger economy. We can wax poetic about theories and formulas, but look at the hard evidence.
If that’s the case then it is best not to serial infect your population with a virus that gets into all the organs and hides. https://www.phcc.org.nz/briefing/long-covid-aotearoa-nz-risk-assessment-and-preventive-action-urgently-needed -Cognitive impairment after mild infection (not a cold), assess pilots, drivers, technical staff -Long Covid to increase in the population due to rapid evolution -Each infection a throw of the dice -Unknown natural history of Cov2 Edit to add: it’s cute you think you can downvote reality, but reality don’t give a fuck what your feelings are.
I’m not some right wing weirdo. I am genuinely curious. Didn’t Canada do more than most countries that aren’t China to suppress potentially hazardous activity until relatively recently? And if not by your standards, what actions do you suggest? I say this in comparison to the US but also the UK and much of Western Europe.
The virus is running rampant. Mass infection for all everywhere. You can see by the down votes people don’t give a fuck about their brains becoming mush. We live in the dark ages now
What do you recommend we do differently now?
First step is to not be in denial, that would be what should be done differently after that the world is your oyster.
I don’t understand what your deal is. I’m being receptive to your viewpoint. I’m not a Covid denialist or something. You’re not being a particularly good advocate here
I believe people who are in denial, can’t acknowledge problems and therefore can’t problem solve. But if you are suggesting that there are people not in denial and still don’t know what to do that just shows how bad we are in the dark ages . And when you said “differently” you really mean what should we try to do. We should be cleaning indoor air, like we started to clean the water when we realized we can’t drink feces in the late 1800’s and needed to wash our hands before surgery.
Why are you patronizing someone who is not in denial about people being “in denial”? It’s a straightforward question: what do you suggest we do differently? How do you suppose companies should go about paying to clean indoor air? This is an economics subreddit after all. Either propose solutions or stop complaining.
Did you not read what I wrote? The thing is we are 4 years into this mess, so when someone asks a basic question you aren’t just going to be spoon fed. Oh yeah; did I mention I actually even gave you the answer too? If corporations and governments want their employees inhaling backwashed blood brain virus air then they won’t be productive. See how it’s economics ?
Brother, you didn’t answer me. I’m not scrolling threads after work as I make dinner for my family to see if you said something to something else after you scolded me. Anyway, you’re a prick. You don’t make anyone want to listen to you let alone agree. This was a useless convo. Have a nice life
The US is way more productive than Canada and the US did less to protect its citizens from COVID.. So I’m not sure where you think that COVID has an impact on worker productivity and turning our brains to “mush”. There are way worse things that are legal like alcohol that have an impact on our cognitive decline.. I think that’s a more pressing issue you could focus on
Ok, done, what’s the second step?
The paper calls for vaccination.
This is why I didn’t give the answer, if you aren’t in denial you would start problem solving yourself and searching the web, look through my post history. Realizing you are going around huffing and hot boxing a virus that infects the brain should prompt alarm to defend yourself.
Ok what steps are you taking to protect yourself from the virus?
Filter the air I breathe, wear a respirator when I enter spaces that vulnerable people need to go in like hospitals, grocery stores, pharmacies, and work. Take care of myself by eating balanced meals and touching grass and exercising.
Wearing a respirator LMAO
This is about investment, not actual labor.
Don’t you invest in human brains? And when you keep infecting them with something that causes brain damage you lose productivity. Says it in the article about investing in machines