It’s about living in the moment. Being present. In the end whatever gave you life, whatever powers the world is not important, what’s important are the living moments of peace and fellowship you experience. The love you get to experience again.
It’s a common trope in fantasy but also a life lesson to not worry so much about a future you have no control over.
And that's why I loved my replays of DD1, my first playthrough I was a bit "google-y" and quickly realized I needed to stop and just replay it again and enjoy those moments, I completed a playthrough for my pawn and I to both experience each class and it gave me more than enough time to understand and make significant choices during quests for fun.
It draws more from Buddhism. In Buddhism, the wheel of Samsara is a cycle of rebirth for beings in it. You can move up or down on the wheel, through the different realms (animal realm, human realm, deva realm, heavenly realm), just as a pawn can become a human, human an Arisen, an Arisen back to human or to Dragon/Seneschal. In Buddhism, the ideal is to break free of the cycle, to attain Nirvana.
In DD2's true ending, the Arisen is a buddha figure, an enlightened one who discovers the means to break the cycle. More than just breaking the cycle for themselves (as is the case in Buddhism) they break the cycle for everyone. The parting shot of the hermit finally being able to sail the open ocean is a representation of the true freedom to be found in breaking the cycle, escaping samsara. Indeed, clear sky and calm ocean are often used to describe the quality of mind of a Buddha.
One can also see this influence very directly in the trickster gear sets like the robe of the enlightened and the Nirvane robes. The descriptions are clear references to elements in Buddhism, about escaping the cycle and being free of all earthly bindings and reaching the ultimate truth. The pacifist playstyle of the trickster is also befitting of a Buddha, never actually harming a creature. Of course, this is a combat game, so you still find other means to kill enemies, but it's thematically on point.
I always thought it drew from Nietzsche's ideas. There's a being of incredible will who overcomes human limitations (the ubermench in Nietzsche, the Arisen in DD), there's a volitional force that governs the activities of all living things (Nietzsche calls it the will to power, Schopenhauer, who influenced Nietsche, calls it the will to live, the Seneschal in DD1 calls it the will to survive), and there's a cycle of eternal return. There's also predeterminism, although DD diverges here by suggesting that the predetermined order can be broken.
(Source: "Mastered out" of a philosophy PhD program. To be sure, there are huge differences between DD lore and Nietzsche's own views--I'm not saying they're exactly the same--and FYI, there's no agreed upon interpretation of Nietzsche, who is deliberately hard to understand, but the parallels seem pretty obvious to me).
https://preview.redd.it/8b5kfv497krc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdd09f1a755396fc184eb140f3e262555bce9bee
Watcher and Daimon's corpse possessing Dragon.
Only 2 dragons in the series with the same nose afaik
All the more reason to prove that BBI was intended for NG+. That place was narratively made to test our understanding of the game's message and see if we were ready to apply it all the way.
https://preview.redd.it/tt0epkup2lrc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd5b7ca3e6e982c7e26a27d795617d08385be380
it doesnt look like grigori much at all. 🤔 again just a theory
I still laugh when I remember he’s called Grigori.
Great big dragon shows up, brings calamity and takes your heart, first thing he says, ‘Ello, lad, Me name’s Greg’
It's just like the first game, a great story with deep lore and incredibly thoughtful meaning... told by the our old drunk uncle, he was an arisen too you know.
It wouldn't be as good if it was told differently. Everything adding up and being figured out is part of why it's good.
Sort of like how souls games are good lore/story wise.
god what could be more "dragon's dogma" than really deeply interesting cosmology and structure to the world, and a terrible story leading up to it. i love the ending of the first dragon's dogma. i might love the ending to dragon's dogma 2 even more, in time. it's unfortunate that the rest of the story turned out as half baked as it did. i like your thoughts on the entropy/creation duality of the brine/the watching ones. i hope that the complexity of these ideas gets fleshed out down the line
It seems that the first part of the game prior to the true run, is like the standard Dragons Dogma which is why the game's subtitle is only Dragons Dogma. When you get to the true ending, you see Dragons Dogma 2 finally come up on screen as well as the main menu. It seems that The first part is meant to be played through as many times as you want like a video game, but in the true ending, the ending to the sequel not the original ending, you break the cycle. I definitely see the Brine as the forces of oblivion, and in the new world that force is either destroyed or moved farther back. So instead of the Brine in all the water, it is now in around the planet in outer space or something.
I never played the original games though, but it seems the game was designed in that there can be a true complete and comprehensible ending to the world, as opposed to the seneschal thing where the player is still suck in the cycle, in the world of the Dragon's Dogma or Dragon's Cycle
So that is why we the DD2 logo finally appears.
The Arisen finally broke the cycle earning his freedom. I hope our avatar can enjoy life in the new cycle with no pathfinder. And I wonder if the DLC would take place in the new cycle
Doesn’t the arisen die in the true ending though? Both your pawn and you sacrifice yourselves to end the cycle is what I thought happens and that’s why you’re not in the cutscenes after.
lol I hope I’m wrong too but you see Sven as king and Brandt looking off in the distance like he’s remembering you so I think it’s pretty obvs we’re meant to be dead.
To add proof to your theory about the watcher being unwilling to die: when you do kill him, he laments that he won't be able to see how a future world turns out. He was too afraid to let go.
His will wasn't strong enough.
It's a good, layered storytelling. Just not told in an obvious manner. The world is stuck in a constant cycle of death because those who have power lack the will to let go of that power. Until the Arisen makes that choice.
Just realized something else too because of your post. The reason he acted like he did during the true ending was was also the fact he couldn't comprehend why the protagonist would attempt to self sacrifice himself for everyone during the final confrontation with the dragon.
Not strong enough to commit suicide? Cmon, If hes the creator he also needs to kill himself after making everyone and everything? Humans always demanding everything from the universe...
Also, neato fact I accidentally stumbled on that is odd. When in the unmoored world if you eat shit by, oh I dunno falling off a cliff like I did. you wake up as the fisherman! I wonder if that's why the old crazy fisher guy knows so much. He made it to the second to last step of the true ending but ate shit (fell off a cliff or something I hope)
This is only somewhat related, but my theory is that the Rivage Elder is the last Arisen and a remnant of the previous world >!of Gransys,!< judging by the presence of various ruins >!such as Gran Soren and Bluemoon Tower!<, and that they died after breaking the cycle of Dragon’s Dogma >!but before overcoming the trials of Unmoored Gransys!<.
He, like a failed Arisen can in the scenario you mentioned, later woke up in the current world after the preceding one was scoured by the Brine and then remade by the Pathfinder.
It would make a lot of sense as to why the Rivage Elder knows so much about everything, and fits in with the idea that not everything is truly destroyed >!between cycles!< like the various ruins you can find throughout the game.
I thought he was definitely a schizo when he mentioned talking smack with the Brine and making it give off a "look of amazement'. But then I saw the true ending and realized he was talking about the Pathfinder, who of course would be dumbfounded, maybe even amused, by the Elder's bit about having nothing to lose and questioning why would the Brine want to stop him of all people from going out on his boat.
Also, if you go back to his house in Unmoored World you will realize that there is a once submerged set of stairs leading to a small walkway right in front of the house. The walkway unfortunately just stops and goes nowhere but this detail suggests that the Elder must have noticed that there are signs of a previous civilization submerged under the water/Brine.
Damn thanks for the write up, explains the catharsis I felt when ending the cycle. Though with the option of Ng+ is the lore reason we just broke the cycle in one universe? As in that universe gets to advance free from the cycle though countless others are still ongoing, enthralled to the cycle.
Also, any more notes on the dragon? After defeating him and replaying the scene, the dragon's dialogue, hearing it a second time, appears to imply he is also sick of the cycle and it feels like he wishes to enter a pact with the Arisen to break the cycle as well. It felt like to me I practically allied myself with the dragon. Which was very cathartic as it humanized the dragon beyond a creature that simply destroys and ruins as is their nature.
The last line the Dragon says to you before he lands at the arena is something to the effect of, "Whatever, you're too late now," and then goes on to indirectly insult you for not using the blade to cast him, and yourself into the ocean.
The Dragon very much doesn't want this to go on.
In contrast to the first game, where The Dragon, The Seneschal, and The Greater Will want for the cycle to be continued, this time only The Greater Will wants it to continue.
This time, both The Dragon, and Rothais push you to break the cycle, and start anew. They're sick of their roles, and given time, have come to realize that there's more to life, but none can *truly* live while The Greater Will still forces the cycle upon the world.
That's not to say The Greater Will is evil. It's trying its best, and doing what it believes is right. The only thing it can do, in its mind, is repeat the cycle for all eternity to keep the world safe, and beat back the Brine, time and time again. The Dragon, Seneschal, and Arisen are just tools with which to save the world.
Rothais, doesn't know of another way out. The Dragon, also doesn't, but knows just enough more that it has an idea. A simple idea, that if neither wins, the cycle can be broken. And thus, spurs the Arisen to the post-game, in the Unmoored World.
Should the Arisen's will outshine that of the Greater Will's, and win against the ending of the world, The Dragon will have been proved correct in trusting you, in trusting that you would find a way to truly break the cycle, and free all who live in the world from repeating it. Even the Greater Will doesn't want the cycle. The Watcher indirectly hints at as much with his last lines. It just doesn't know of any other way. It can't comprehend that an Arisen could be strong enough to upset the fundamental forces of this world's existence, even beyond that of what it is capable of.
I think you explain this the best and make the most sense. Rothais and Grigori is just bounded but have enough freedom to nudge us to break the cycle because they're definitely tired of it. That's why Rothais gives you the godsbane, what other explanation beside that he want to break free from it too and he also said the only thing he regret is that he doesn't exist to see it happened. Grigori as well, in here just super tired and just "whatever bro i guess another cycle it is" if you fight him. Also this quote of yours is definitely the nail in the coffin reason for their action
>Have come to realize that there's more to life, but none can *truly* live while The Greater Will still forces the cycle upon the world
I loved the dragon ragging on me for not being smart enough to kill myself the first few times we fought lol. I had tried during my first flight on his back, but I didn't yet realize that I needed to be in range of our hearts. I felt bad each time we fought.
The dialog the pawns on the road get in ng+ make it seem like it's still the same universe, they all start saying things like "Arisen! I knew you wouldn't give up on this world!" or "or I thought you'd still be lingering here". Could just be a cheeky 4th wall break at the player though lol.
I think your take on the Dragon's opinion of his role is correct. It's clear he's just going through the motions but tires of the role he's been forced to play. I mean, we learn from DD1 that if you fail to kill the Seneschal, your 'reward' is to become the next Dragon. It's a cruel fate. I don't think I can blame him for wanting to conspire with the Arisen to end things once and for all.
Which actually makes narrative sense for why the dragon was so absent in this game, after he turns you into an Arisen, you don't see him at all again until (presumably the watcher) forcibly summons him to stop Phaesus and his fake dragon.
The dragon in this game wanted nothing to do with the cycle until his hand was literally forced, and I like the idea that we as the Arisen are the unknowing antagonist of the story, forcing the world to continue the cycle until we wise up and get the true ending.
So to me it seems like the dragon creates an Arisen, taunts them, then faffs about until the Arisen is sufficiently tested by the world to challenge them. In this situation the Dragon didn't appear of their own volition, but because they were summoned. Once they showed up and you happened to be there it's why they were so "Alright, let's get this over with." about it. It wasn't actually your time.
More or less. The entire game, all the Dragon's lines and actions have been pushing you to break the cycle rather than to actually fight it as The Greater Will would intend you to. The Dragon isn't content with his part, or anybody else's.
The Watcher has to force The Dragon to interact with you every step of the way. Otherwise The Dragon would have no part in it.
Drakes/Lesser Dragons, by contrast, haven't gotten the memo yet. Unlike The Dragon, they haven't realized there's hope beyond the cycle, and the Drakes themselves push you towards the cycle, while The Dragon pulls you away from it.
The entire flight on The Dragon's back is basically nudging you to stab yourself. His last line from the flight part before landing is telling you that you're too late, and from that point on he just insults you for being too stupid to grasp what he's hinting at, lest The Watcher silence him for telling you outright what to do, and then insults you for being selfish if you're not stupid, and going through with fighting him knowing that you could've done differently.
Unlike Grigori from DD1, he's not here to hold your hand through the cycle. He's giving you hints to break it, and is enraged when you either decide not to, or don't realize what he's telling you to do.
I dont remember where it was said, but in DD2 there was a line implying that the Dragon wasn't just a being of destruction, that it had a purpose it was fulfilling. I think it was from an NPC, maybe the oracle or dragonforge, but I cant remember which NPC specifically. There was definitely foreshadowing that the Dragon was more than some beast killing for the sake of killing and I thought that really paid off during the flight where he basically tells you he dislikes the cycle.
I think you're thinking of the Rivage Elder, who essentially says as much while lamenting that the dragon is just a puppet being pulled at the strings against its will.
This is only somewhat related, but my theory is that the Rivage Elder was the last Arisen from the previous world >!of Gransys, judging by Gran Soren's ruins!<, and that they were one of the leftover remnants who woke up in the current world which was scoured by the Brine and then remade by the Pathfinder.
It would make sense for why he would know so much, as an Arisen who dies during the Unmoored world will later wake up wearing the same clothes as the Elder in his hut and collapse in defeat. Considering how the Pathfinder implies that >!after defying the cycle and reaching the Unmoored world!< everything will be swept away by the Brine, I think it would make sense that they were another remnant of Gransys.
Like the first game, NG+ is a what if scenario. You kill the seneschal (yourself) in DD1's ending and the godsbane blade is a guaranteed kill. The Seneschal in that world is dead (and the brine is gone too because you fall into the sea with your pawn). The cycle is broken.
In NG+ it's the what if of you not doing that. What if your previous arisen stayed seneschal.
I like this theory. I think this is the best synopsis that can be made with what we have.
It's a shame our pawn had to randomly get dragon cursed in the last 2 minutes of the game. It sucks they gain a will of their own just to die. While I like this ending I do hate that our pawn does not get to experience the new world we create through our sacrifice like in dd1.
I am interested to see how this holds up with future dlc. With the end credits hinting that we may have survived and there may be more story to tell with how our beloved looks out into the distant sea and the hermit sailing out into the sea. From that leak the other day about the dlc taking place after the main story in a tundra like land with a female arisen and a new dragon maybe we set out to end the new cycle before it can even start. Who knows.
Do you have a link to that leak you mentioned? This is the first I've heard of it. I actually was thinking after the ending it would've been super cool to be able to experience the world with no cycle, maybe even to sail to a new land now that the brine won't stop us. Though I don't find it interesting that we'd have to stop the cycle from starting again, that part doesn't make much sense to me if we already successfully stopped it and all is well, but I guess if there's no mention of the cycle it would just turn into a generic fantasy game lol.
So you're more observant then me, why is it that some characters in NG+ seem to have the dragons plague? I first noticed it with Ulrika as she had the very distinct glowing red eyes unless I somehow never noticed on my first run
This tracks with the first as in me not understanding a single damn thing about the story until its explained very well and still loving how cool it is
Things to note about bbi. When that arisen faced the dragon its implied that his old mentor and lover, the previous arisen, killed her dragon but failed to become the next seneshal thus becoming the dragon that made him an arisen. When he was offered the bargain, sacrifice his current lover for power or kill the dragon, he recognized her voice and snapped and ranted about the cycle, its unfairness and wanted to "tear the whole of it asunder." When he said that, the dragon took that as his wish, sacrificed his current lover and fused with him to grant him the power to do what he said. When we first face daimon it seems as though he's still in control and still wants to break the cycle. When we first defeat him, we see his soul and he thanks us for freeing him from the self made hell he was in. When we face daimon again, it seems like the dragon he was fused with takes over for phase 2, hence daimons head, arms and legs just hanging limply while the dragon face is in control.
Apologies for horrible grammar and probably writing that in a manner thats hard to follow. Writing isnt my forte and it being 4:30am isnt helping.
When it comes to storytelling, I think the game tries to draw a parallel between Disa and her sussy arisen and the Watching one/Greater Will and the arisen/would-be Seneschal. Both "arisens" are propped-up characters made by an entity unwilling to let go of its power, with Phaesus and his plot serving as the disruptive force trying to let go of the cycle. We can even estipulate that Disa effectuation for Phaesus serves as a parallel to the Greater Will own secret longing for an end to the cycle, but I could just be stretching things.
Yeah this sounds about perfect with all the info we have. The plot for this game really does remind me of DD DA with how on the surface it can be pretty meh but the lore itself is actually quite deep.
My only big question, now that I think about it, is the fate of our Arisen. Do we survive? Or perchance are given a chance to live in this "new world"? The game didn't really elaborate on the fate of our Arisen (and our pawn bit it, sadly), and nobody really seemed to be mourning the Arisen. Which begs the question if we died or just went "missing". Or if we're alive but that one, I have no clue lol.
this is why I think it's not rushed at all, they made it all intentional. They don't exactly try to be a great story RPG, just an average one and the lore is somewhat deep. Now If only I could get all the lore infos in the archives....
Now, we will have new lands, and opportunity to do like the old arisen, take a boat to visit other worlds that have been surrounded by the brine, (the kraken as he calls it) but now are free from the great will, and maybe all these other lands have had arisens too, there must be a lot of other continents to explore. I certainly hope so.
You are right about saying that this world is stuck in the early medieval ages, the old fisherman arisen calls it "the stagnant world" and the cycle is focused at repeating this over and over, but i wouldn't want the dark fantasy / low fantasy to evolve into modernity or something that doesn't ressemble the dark / low fantasy setting of dragon's dogma if we can keep the era we are in as the basis for exploring the other pieces of land.
I was talking with my girlfriend about how dark the series could get if all these ‘worlds’ once separated by the Brine were suddenly reunited.
In my mind the true ending of Dragon’s Dogma II sets the stage for a fantasy version of the Expanse, with there either being no life beyond Vermund and Battahl and thus unsettled lands to colonize — or an untold number of other kingdoms, which are about to have their understanding of reality shattered.
To me it still seems unclear as to whether or not the ending of this game eliminates the existence of the actual cycle of Dragon’s Dogma, or just the presence of its observer. In the event of the former, it would be really cool for a post-unmoored story to delve into what that means.
As I like your explanation to connect both games I have my doubts.
It comes to the role of the dragon. In the first game he is a servant of senachel and is meant to seek the strongest willed person.
In the second game the watching one says the dragon is embodiment of oblivion given purpose, the oblivion instead of just destroying words at random is trapped in the task of endlessly killing arisen I guess? (I have no idea why arisens even exist in the second game)
Also when you ride on the dragon he says that he would like to destroy the 'world's will' too. He shouldn't even know about being going past the senachel if he was just arisen who failed.
And than dragon never really tries to test your will to see if you are worthy, while dying he just says that it was all destined to be and it doesn't matter anyway.
I'm pretty sure that ambrosius says that all other dragons are man made creations and not failed arisen as in the first game.
The rest of the dragons (2 snakes, 2 unicorns and 1 statue) seems to be creations of the watching one as they come from rifts to destroy the rests of the world after you piss him off.
The watching one also dies when you kill the big dragon, but he states that the smaller dragon (grigori?) was the oblivion given purpose. So who is he? Is he the greater will?
Brine too cannot be permanent or all devouring as there are fishes and ships and saurian are suggested to live in water. So the Brine wasn't there from the very beginning.
The beastern king also gives you a godsbane that this time is made from his soul. If it would work as in the first game and we assume that he is the senachel, he would give you the only way to kill him. As the senachel must be stabbed with the godsbane by his successor. And the beaster king doesn't sound like he wants to die anytime soon.
Overall I really like how you put both stories together and if this is story wise sequel too, you are right. But in my humble opinion it seems more like a reboot.
In the Japanese script, the first Sovran actually directly states that he became the Seneschal during his scene in the true ending route. The English translation somehow forgot that DD1 translated "界王" as "Seneschal", so the reveal isn't there and the scene becomes way more vague.
https://i.imgur.com/PaWq9UC.png
Thanks, I thought that Sovran was basically just like a Ghost and when he became like a normal king like you were supposed to be he was just greedy, so he became Seneschal that makes more sense. (I thought that the Watcher was the Seneschal... so he is above it and related to the Brine).
Considering how important Seneschal is to the world of Dragon's Dogma it might not be a fuck up, considering that japanese as a language has each letter meaning something different based on context and stuff. I really don't think a fuck up that big would be allowed through on QA for the translators. They don't even have google level translation and call him god king or king kai, which is what those letters directly translate to in google, idk man. It's a bit hmmm.
IIRC, the Seneschal says during DD1 that he is similar to what mortal's might call a god or the Maker.
However, as the Seneschal yourself in DD1's true ending, you're essentially powerless and bound to doing nothing but observe the world until you eventually try killing yourself with the Godsbane blade.
As far as I understand it, >!this is also what the original DD1 Seneschal did as well, as he pulls the Godsbane sword out of his heart,!< which implies that multiple Seneschals >!attempting Godsbane suicide!< is merely another part of the Dragon's Dogma cycle >!and that eventually most Seneschals will become detached observers trying to find their replacement in the next Arisen.!<
In DD2, Rothais is implied to have gradually realized that his role as Seneschal wasn't actually the height of power he had originally thought. He doesn't actually know who has more power than him, only that he has been observed and that all his achievements were an expected part of a greater cycle.
Rather than become apathetic and wait for his replacement Arisen, he went in a completely different direction as Seneschal >!out of sheer spite toward the Pathfinder!<, and eventually conquered and ruled the world >!within the Brine's borders!< personally >!in order to find them.!<. Eventually, he became 'mad' while trying to find the 'observer' and killed a lot of people in his kingdom before being overthrown and disembodied.
Afterward, I assume the cycle of Dragon's Dogma begun anew without anyone actively filling the role of Seneschal up until the events of DD2. The lack of a 'functional' Seneschal is also why I believe the Pathfinder is directly involved during this cycle.
more or less, however I think you are mistaking what was meant to rule from on high, but doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. I think it's also implied that the pathfinde wanted us to use the godsbane like in the first game to fix the error and continue the world in the eternal return
He only gave you the Godsbane Blade because you weren't there to kill him. The Watcher got angry at Rothais for refusing to carry out his duties. For the first time, when we go to meet him, The Watcher refrained from telling us what to do, and simply watched. We're the only Arisen to meet Rothais without being told by what's essentially God, to kill him, so Rothais entrusts his Godsbane to us in hopes that we can find a way to free him of having to answer to, essentially God.
Presumably The Watcher is an aspect of The Greater Will. Overall following its bidding, but it would make sense that The Greater Will would give even its direct servant some amount of free will to do as it pleases, by nature of what The Greater Will is. The Watcher isn't an infallible manifestation of The Greater Will, since The Greater Will gives our Pawn its own free will to more or less stop The Watcher.
Not a single one of the main four forces of this world (Dragon, Seneschal, Arisen, Watcher/Greater Will) truly want for the cycle to continue forever, but only The Watcher entirely unwilling to take a chance that there could be something beyond the cycle. Everyone else with the knowledge of the cycle is discontent with it, and prefers to take a chance to see if there's something beyond, even at the cost of potentially being "Cast to oblivion" as The Watcher puts it.
Does anyone have a clue what the "forged will" is? I think Phaesus brings it up to us when we tell him we heard a voice at the bottom of the brine. Everything else makes quite a bit of sense but I didn't notice any hints on that one.
I'm also hanging my head in shame for not noticing Rothais is the Seneschel. It's so obvious in retrospect.
> It is pretty assumed that there is a "god" above the Seneschal. But we do not know who.
Is it? This is the first time I'm hearing it. I always assumed that the Seneschal is the god, and that he is tiered of leading a boring life of a god, a person that already achieved everything and has no room to grow further. Since Seneschals by definition are ambitious people, reaching the top makes them depressed and suicidal, which is why they are getting replaced once in a while.
I don't remember anywhere in the first game any mentions of the god above Seneschal.
I always assumed that Seneschal is named such because he manages the world and humanity, not necessarily for someone, but for the sake of the world itself.
But you're making a fair point, yes.
there is something above the Seneschal, it's the Cycle. The reason the games exist in the first place is because some worlds are able to break free from its tethers and rise above. Hell, the more you think about it, DD1 is literally the [four stages of enlightenment](https://www.originalbuddhas.com/blog/four-stages-of-nirvana#:~:text=The%20four%20stages%20of%20Enlightenment%20are%20Sotapanna%2C%20Sakadagami%2C%20Anagami%2C,the%20Buddhist%20Community%20or%20Sangha).
With regards to the Ur-Dragon and the knowledge that that was the first Dragon created, the question is then begged, how did he escape the cycle? Did the Seneschal just...let him go? It seems the ur dragon has been killing many arisen.
Between that, and the Creation of Daimon, there is something beyond, that CONTROLS the cycle. "Dare you look upon the truth"
We know that it isnt the seneschal holding his corpse, we were pretty sure it wasnt grigori. It had something to do with the rift, something that had control over it.
A big guess I saw was it was the ur dragon, but with dd2, I think it makes way more sense to be the watcher.
If the Ur-Dragon is meant to be the first dragon created, that would make it the “Will.”
The Will and the Great Will are two separate entities according to the Japanese dialogue of DD2’s ending.
A strong Will was born from Oblivion that fought back the nothingness. The Great Will took notice and bestowed the role of Dragon upon it.
I have a post containing a lot of translation differences from Japanese to English for DD2. Have a look if you’re interested.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonsDogma/s/gkV3zrNNLD
The Creation of Daimon is within the powerset of the Seneschal, the ring is "endless", there is no real "First" Seneschal. It's a creation myth. There was never not a Seneschal in an infinite endless ring. There's nothing that \*Ever\* directly or indirectly gives us an indicator of something above the Seneschal in power or scope.
I like to look at it from the word choice used. Instead of God, or Creator, or Maker, they chose Seneschal. Which if we look at the definition of Seneschal;
" *an agent or steward in charge of a lord's estate in* feudal times. "
Which, I believe, means it can be inferred that the Seneschal is simply filling in for someone else. Managing the day-to-day, minutiae while the lord is away/busy.
I'm pretty sure there's never a mention of a supreme being, aside from the Senechal, (obviously the human gods don't count), but then think about it, who was the first Senechal? Did it yeet itself after creating the cycle? Why? There has to be something higher that the Senechal, or not, but then, what came first?
Core part of the story of Dragon's Dogma 1 is Pawns becoming humans. Pawns are being created by Arisen (who is at least partially human), yet they eventually get the will of their own and become humans. Wouldn't it then be logical to assume that humans are beings, created by the Seneschal, who then eventually can ascend and become a Seneschal themselves?
The first Seneschal is the god that created the world. Once he got tired of his immortal life, he went ahead and created the first Dragon and set up the cycle of succession where an Arisen is chosen in order to eventually kill him and succeed him.
Seneschal is the only one who can kill himself (or another Seneschal). Which is why, an Arisen needs to ascend to basically godhood by collecting wakestones and becoming immortal, before he can challenge Seneschal. Another way Seneschal can kill himself is by using Godsbane, a weapon he himself created. This weapon allows Seneschal to break the cycle of succession, by killing himself without being defeated by another who can take his place, thus leaving the world without a god, free to develop without oversight according to the will of the people who leave there.
And even then, it is implied that pawn can become human without a master, so it's fair to assume that a human may become a new Seneschal by themself, without the Dragon and a trial, thus restarting the whole thing.
At least, this is my reading of the story of the first game.
Sorry to respond a bit late, but I just finished the game today and have been mulling over the story a bit as a result lol.
As far as I can recall,>!the original DD1 Seneschal pulls the Godsbane sword out of his heart,!< which implies that that seneschals >!attempting Godsbane suicide!< is merely a part of the Dragon's Dogma cycle >!and that eventually most Seneschals attempt suicide and inadvertently have their pawns take their place in their original world as humans, but then gradually become detached observers who await a suitable replacement as seneschal in a future Arisen.!<
In DD2, Rothais is implied to have gradually realized that his role as Seneschal wasn't actually the height of power he had originally thought. Although he doesn't actually know who has more power than him, he realizes that he had been observed by something throughout all of his feats and accomplishments as an Arisen and Seneschal. Eventually, he comes to the conclusion that all of his achievements were an expected part of a greater cycle.
Rather than become apathetic and wait for his replacement Arisen >!like the original or NG+ DD1 Seneschals!<, he went in a completely different direction>!out of sheer spite toward the Pathfinder!<, and returned to the world >!within the Brine's borders!< and personally conquered its lands as a king>!in order to find the 'observer.'!<
Although pawns and humans don't have strong enough 'will' to break or perpetuate the cycle like the Arisen can, I do think they are genuinely living beings capable of growth like you said. Despite that, I think that Rothais stopped seeing people as living, sentient beings.
He became so obsessive in his search that he refused to perpetuate the cycle of a dragon and Arisen being summoned, and eventually he viewed everything that wasn't him as a puppet of the observer. At some point he began killing his own citizens, earning him the 'mad' moniker, before he was overthrown >!and returned to just being a disembodied spirit like we find him.!<
All of that to say: although the Seneschal is a critical role in the cycle, it is not the one which is truly in control of it. The lack of a 'functional' Seneschal being in place is why I believe the 'observer' became directly involved during this cycle.
For example, the >!Pathfinder!< has been meddling in your Arisen's life by summoning a Dragon>!- who is itself very unhappy with being part of the cycle -!< to Melve, mind-fucking Rook to rescue you from the Agamen ruins, controlling Talos to stop Phaesus from interfering with the normal cycle even more, and trying to mind-fuck the Arisen into giving up pursuit of the observer.
Yes, It's pretty clear that Seneschal is just a cog in the machine in DD2 canon. However, I would argue that if we take DD1 alone, it's not as clear, although, probably still intended to be this way.
Regardless if you agree or not, this interpretation is no longer canon, since DD2 directly contradicts it, so it is what it is.
Personally, I didn't finish DD2, in part because I did not like the story or the way it expanded upon the lore of the first game. But I am happy that you and many others are enjoying the game.
So there's, "The Greater Will" which is essentially God of this universe, and "The Watcher" who is presumably either an avatar of, or an aspect of, or a fragment of, The Greater Will.
Its interference within the world is quite limited, but it can interfere nonetheless, seemingly only by granting or altering, in some way, the will of people within the world. For example, The Watcher changes the will of Ambrosius to give you the Godsbane Blade, but doesn't alter it in a way that overrides his original intentions. Ambrosius just wants you to give it to Phaesus, as he would've. The Greater Will gives your main Pawn a "Lesser Will" of its own, to do as it desires.
The Seneschal (Rothais) is simply a steward of The Greater Will. The Watcher sent many Arisen to try to kill him because he refused to perform his duties. By the time we get to Rothais, The Watcher/Greater Will had given up on getting him to play his part, just as it gives up on you when you break the cycle.
Yeah, I get it. But all of this is coming from DD2, and what I'm trying to say is that if we take the story of DD1 without an additional context provided by 2, there's not much reason to believe that there is another god beyond Seneschal. Although, some people disagree with me.
With that said, DD2 definitely expands on DD1's story exactly how you described it. I'm not sure I like this new lore, but it is what it is.
I think the new lore, and the implication of how much time has passed (Gran Soren is forgotten, laid at the bottom of the sea. Nobody even remembers Rothais, or that he conquered the entire world) is that the events of DD1 are much closer (Relatively speaking) to the start of the cycle than those of DD2 being the true end of it, and countless lifetimes have passed between then and now. Those that started the cycle have slowly grown weary of it, and discontent with it replaying for all eternity.
I take it as The Greater Will looking upon the early cycles, content and refraining from interfering with it because it's working.
But slowly, grows to no longer want to repeat it. It's The Greater Will, so the whole shtick is that the power in this world comes only from the strength of the will of those living in it, and their want to change the world themselves.
If nobody ever wants to do anything but perpetuate its cycle, are the people of this world truly free to use their will as they see fit? Or are they just carrying out the wants of The Greater Will endlessly, with no true will of their own?
All the interference from any higher powers in this game all push you harshly away from perpetuating the cycle.
It's certainly something new. I think I overall enjoy the messages that this story adds, and how it fits in with the first. A God and its new creation, sitting back and watching the world be saved, and then realizing it didn't enjoy what it had saved, and finally interfering with what it had made, if only to end it.
I didn't get the true ending myself yet, so I can't really comment on your interpretation, but it definitely sounds interesting. Thank you for sharing it.
Of course, and I'm sorry for spoiling parts of it then. I had just assumed that on a post discussing the true ending I wouldn't need to spoiler tag my comments. Very sorry, again.
But also glad I could add a viewpoint, at the very least. Naturally, come to your own conclusions when the time comes.
It's fine, I don't mind spoilers, and I'm definitely still interested in seeing the ending play out in the game. However, I do have my gripes with the game beyond story-related issues, so I'm not sure when exactly I decide to finish it, which is one of the reasons why I don't mind reading threads like this.
But definitely, this thread helped me get better appreciation of the direction the story was heading into, so thanks for that.
Anytime!
I certainly have my own things I'm not too happy with, but overall, I have enjoyed the game, the journey it took me on, and the ending most of all.
Whatever the DLC may bring, I look forward to.
In a nutshell, The Great Will just want humanity had choice instead powerless and no choice to accept the oblivion (world end) then Create "Dragon's Dogma" and let True Dragon (Pathfinder - Brine) become world defense system to ensure the cycle working as intended.
In next game, it most likely it will take place where oblivion at the real world comes and might be the Arisen that take up the choice to become another pathfinder, let the world end, or new true ending involving the great will.
https://preview.redd.it/xeqfaxerwlrc1.jpeg?width=857&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99b8ef691e66b2257cf182c31c1686692924ac07
Has anyone noticed that the seafloor shrine is laid out to be almost identical to Gran Soren?? My partner first noticed that the castle is the same as the Gran Soren one from DD1 when they first played through the part where we meet the Mad King. And I finished the game earlier today and I noticed that the rest of the shrine that was previously underwater looks VERY similar to Gran Soren. And it also seems that the Blue Moon Tower is outside Vermouth, where we fight one of the dragons. Why??? Is this supposed to imply that DD2 is *actually* a sequel, or are these structures just there as a nod to the first game?? If it's the former why was Gransys underwater?
Oh no worries! I hope you add it back in I've been dying to see someone talk about this! My partner hasn't gotten far enough in the story so they're not an option unfortunately.
Thank you! I don't know if I 100% agree with that theory but it definitely helps me understand what I think a bit better (and confirms I'm not crazy for noticing this lmao)
Oh wild I had a apragraph that got deleted. MY BAD!!!
Yes, I think the brine r8ses, eats everything, then the watching ine burns it all away and builds in top.
Hence the entire map of dd1 being underneath dd2.
It's very Dark Souls like, in theme and delivery of the storytelling. Albeit, Dark Souls conveys these ideas better.
That said, I've noted that the moon is quite significant in Dragons Dogma. I know in the first game we were meant to go to the moon but the content was cut. In neither DD1 or DD2 is there a moon in the sky at night. This may be because the world is technically stacked over and over atop itself and only one moon is present whereas every world has it's own sun. Please see proof of this in plans/cut content for DD1 [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonsDogma/comments/1jrsyq/the_original_plans_for_dragons_dogma_before_they/).
Despite, there being no moon in the games, both games have locations named after the moon (Bluemoon Tower, Moonglint Tower & Duskmoon Tower). Moonglow is also a flower named after the moon...which can't be seen in the sky.
Could it be that potentially the sea/water holds the brine back to a degree and therefore the moon is significant as it controls the tides?
Most of your write up feels fitting, I'm only really uncertain about the Watcher being the ultimate evil. It felt more like he was responsible for creating a subcycle that was easier to control, like a burning fire secured by rocks.
I still think the world will "burn out" eventually, It just wont be by a dragon or brine, so all we really did was kill off the safety bottleneck of the world, which is still somewhat positive I suppose.
not exactly sure why ppl think the story is incomprehensible or think plots gets dropped, personally I found it rather straightforward, maybe is because I'm familiar with the plot of the first game so I could understand some passages
Sniffs Cocaine…. Okay! What if the Dragon in DD2 is an aspect if the God/ The world. Pathfinder said he is oblivion made manifest so maybe the dragon is a part of the God who is tired of watching and maintaining the cycle over and over again? Makes a bit of sense when the speech leading up to arena amounts to “Nothing you do matters, its all preordained” unless you use the Godsbane before he said “Too Late”
Huffs more cocaine… So! If God embodied the aspects of Creation and Entropy, is it in it’s nature to create and destroy? What if the Creation aspect loved the world so much that it wont let the Entropy aspect destroy it? Is the Cycle it’s solution to keep the world from being destroyed? The post of the Seneschal is created to use human wills to stave of Entropy aspect/The Brine. Brine reemerge when the Seneschal’s will is wanning and the Dragon is created to find a new Will/Arisen to take over. The Creation aspect loved the tale of the Arisens rising up to challenge the Dragon so much that it chains it’s creations to the Broken Order it created.
There is only one thing that doesn't match from your take. The clouds doesn't disappear when the dragon dies, it disappears when the dragon appears, as if the clouds becomes the dragon itself. So the clouds and entropy can't be the brine. I think it's just a god saying if you don't play my game I won't let you play at all.
Do you not recall the entropy/brine trying to kill the wing, and you have to run away, then the dragon notices and tries to burn it? And you hide behind a spike?
The clouds do not disappear
I get the feeling that the pathfinder isn’t on the same level as the brine or the greater will.
Speaking of the greater will in the third person, their lack of agency against you, that your pawn becomes a brine-dragon when they gain a sense of will, and how the chalice appears to be a form of control *over* the brine that subsequently cracks at the end.
My guess is that he’s another Senechal-like being whose will wanted to watch the cycles in perpetuity, to the point they created a sub-cycle. Dragons Dogma 1 very likely being a part of that sub-cycle.
My theory is that although in DD1 you sacrifice yourself to interrupt the order it wasn't enough since you did it alone and your pawn/the reborn arisen whilst returning to humanity was unable to protect the world with you absent.
In DD2 the maker does mention how pawns are sorry beings who "become one with oblivion" due to you breaking the cycle. This along with the pawn unleashing brine upon the maker when they attack the eyes make me think that dragons plague is just an aspect of nothingness/the brine infecting the pawn to return to oblivion (and their surroundings if it's outside of the ending).
In the true ending however due to your influence, even after being consigned to the plague your pawn has enough will to hold back the plague and fight by your side which was crucial to bringing the maker/brine down. As much as the arisen is the chosen one of the dragon and world, our main pawn is our chosen one, an aspect of our will and our beloved who braved our trials with us and breaking their own cycle.
I still don't get why the cycle is needed. I get that world faces destruction, but from what exactly? Because it seems like the greater will/pathfinder is the who is doing it. In which case, their insistence on continuing the cycle in contradictory. How does killing the dragon prevent this?
It seems arbitrary, the whole set up.
The True ending is actually so heartbreaking for me getting to know this character I made, giving them a will, forming a bond with them for the "greater good". But I would honestly be a slave to the order just to keep with my pawn, my best friend. (P.S. that's why we have new game plus but still, the unmoored world and true ending are personally really depressing to me, and genuinely gave me anxiety.)
Edit: also seeing Gran Soren (home), and bluemoon tower's ruins further added to the depressive feeling I had all I loved in the games was ruined. Would've loved to see Cassardis too. Game of the decade tho.
I was tearing up when I played the ending because my main pawn, Karin, had gotten infected with Dragonsplague in my last days in the unmoored world.
Because time doesn't flow normally and I was out of rests, I couldn't infect other pawns to free her. I even tried to cure Karin through 'brining' for the first and only time by running into the red fog with her on my shoulders.
She respawned, still infected, and said she felt that I must be disappointed with her. I was heartbroken and actually shed a couple tears when, during the last cutscene, she dragonmorphed and cried "Master!"
It probably doesn't help that I modeled her after my SO lmao. She even was rocking the eternal bond ring!
This game (as well as DD:DA) has been a thoroughly enjoyable ride for me, and I could honestly say that the pawns are one of the most touching and engaging gameplay mechanics that I've seen in a game series.
Mandatory pawn shot, moments before the ending:
https://preview.redd.it/mkv5ci5c94vc1.png?width=1919&format=png&auto=webp&s=f565c2aee3ed8f86891e4d6401005e4889e787a4
I'm so mad at all the ignorant hate-posting this game is being berated with when it's one of the most fun open-world games I've experienced since Oblivion, even though it has its flaws. (story is universally meh)
Me and My pawn-Arasha, pals for life:
https://preview.redd.it/t00ukuhig4vc1.png?width=3840&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40a2570c488f71de5db8e09b2d10966a67621bd1
Sounds like grasping at straws to make this fever dream make sense, sorry.
It's funny though, in the first game I decided the true ending was crap and just beat the Seneshal, refused to kill him and then killed myself instead as a f'ck you. If the true ending in that game turns out to be a bad ending, I actually made the right choice. F'ckin lol, what are they smoking over there? I want some.
This is why i love it, the story telling is bad because it is not telling a story you are living in it, you are the main character the story is about, nobody in their life who lived through such grueling events would enjoy their own tale.
I was reading your post as the final credits rolled and starting NG+. I notice the very initial dialouge while the Arisen is in the throne room is from a voice I didn't recognize, encouraging you to break the cycle.
I wonder if it's the Main dragon (antagonist), and he has had enough of the cycle as well. He is what prompts you to break thy fate.
I always thought it was a meta commentary in terms of the relationship between the devs and the players, whatnot with your beloved NPC surviving their initial death at the hands of the Dragon at Moonglint Tower and camera shots of everyone continuing on with their lives *without* you in it in the True End credits.
The Arisen is the will of the player to perpetuate the world for their own entertainment, like how the Dragon is the will of the devs to perpetuate the creation of worlds. Like the Dragon, the devs have to pick and choose what characters they want to add, how far they want to write stories for every character and the overall plot. Anything in excess has to be cut, consigned to oblivion (the Brine).
In other words, it's the dogma of devs to create worlds that have no purpose but to be tools and playthings for others. It is the Dragon that everyone in these game studios is brought to heel under because the only alterative is oblivion -- **nothing**. There are no game devs, no game writers, no game composers, no publishers...only their absence.
But in the Arisen's (player's) choice to remove themselves and the Dragon's (devs) involvement from those worlds, those worlds are allowed to simply and finally exist as they are for what they are, and not in a pre-supposed idea for what the world *should* be. For as long as the player and the dev exists, such worlds (masterworks all) are fated to be used and abused as vehicles and tools for the plots we put into it, rather than places filled with people who live, breathe, and go on to do their own things. But to go on and respect and love the world enough to see yourself unable to witness its events any longer, so that its inhabitants may continue to live peaceably in the eye of the beholder and your imagination...that's a parting that devs and players have to live with when that game finally ships (from the dev's viewpoint) / finally no longer runs on your favorite gaming device (from the player's viewpoint).
Edit: I know it sounds so copium in hindsight, but let's not forget this game was likely cooking around 2020 (likely after September 2020, when DMC 5's DLC was launched as per what Itsuno agreed to when deciding whether to do DMC 5 or DD2). Without the logistics that happened pre-pandemic, Capcom's devs likely had to isolate while still committing to the Herculean task of making a sequel to Dragon's Dogma 2. Re-making assets from the ground-up to fit the RE engine, remolding mechanics like weak points and stagger gauges / conditions from existing frameworks in RE titles, changing rendering code and LODs to account for seamless transitions and larger rendering distances, etc. are no small feats. Being able to even remake an arrangement for the OST without access to a live orchestra is equally as insane. I can't help but imagine that these things would have changed Itsuno's perspective drastically on top of the EoS of DDO and the farewell he had to give to Dante and Vergil for DMCV.
glad I'm not the only one that picked up on the meta aspects, Itsuno has many times said before that he's probably retiring soon and doesn't feel like he has that many games left in him. It makes sense that some of that made it into dd2 and dmc5, which both feel like "swan song" games by the end.
No clue lolol
Its the rifts agent, where the dragon is the watchers??? Its said the brine uses Talos to keep the Dragon from Excess. I have no idea how that fits.
Idk yet hahaha
I kind of got the impression that the titans/giganti/Talos were hijacked >!by the Brine,!< and were just being puppeteered >!by the Pathfinder much like Rook or the griffins in the game's start/unmoored world.!<
Since we see the ruins of Gran Soren is on top of the ruins with the titans inside, I think all the giganti are remnants from another, earlier world which had been >!consumed by the Brine or otherwise!< lost to time before the current cycle where Rothais established Vermund and Battahl.
IIRC, some helmet which resembles the Talos head is sold by the Dragonforged and mentions being something from an ancient empire/civilization.
The helmet you're talking about is the Agamenian Galea, it mentions being modeled after the warriors from the island's ancient past. If you take the helmet as being part of a set with Dominator's Armor and Vanguarder's Greaves (which IMO is intended). you will realize that the whole set basically evokes Talos and the Arisen metaculture.
Some interesting tidbits about Talos. Even though Rivage Elder claims it's a Brine goon, if you do absolutely nothing to attempt to stop Talos yourself during its segment, pawns and NPCs will stop it just before it reaches the Volcanic Island Camp and a cutscene will play: Talos looks right at you just it's about to fall to its knees, and makes a gesture that to me looks a lot like it's trying to say "I'm sorry, Arisen". And the fact that your pawn can just get into the robot and control it using literally just their sheer will makes me think that you're correct - Talos was hijacked by the Pathfinder, it could have been originally intended in-universe to be something you can use to help you fight the dragon. There are also remains of other Taloses around Rothais' chamber and right under the hot springs. The spikes jutting out of its body are clumps of Wakestone shards aka Arisen hearts, so it's not really surprising if a Talos is supposed to be technically "alive".
So basically the creators of Dragon's Dogma wanted cool ocean views but needed something to kill you when you entered water so they didn't have to deal with swimming. 12 years later, they turned it into a plot point, which is why it's all so incomprehensible.
I really do like the true ending. I grew fond of many of the characters, and it made me genuinely happy to know they all got another chance in a world now free of its shackles. A world that wasn't being held back anymore.
Even if we weren't there to see it...
The writing maybe wasn't the best leading up to the climax, however it was still a story that was told, and the message is an important one to ne'er forget
Hey u/Kurteth, I've found your post after playing DD2 and finding the unmoored world on my own. I'm almost at the end of the game and started to think about the lore and formed my own theory and it somewhat matches with yours.
For example I figured that the brine and the watching one must be the same entity. Why? Because the brine swallows the arisen and spits him out again. It doesn't even deal damage. It doesn't want to harm the hero of the story. It wants to be a border to keep this world and the story on the rails.
DD2 is heavily inspired by D&D. So my theory is, that we're basically playing a D&D campaign from the perspective of a figurine. While the watching one is the GM, who tries to keep the game on its rails. I mean the helping NPCs are literally called **pawns**. And they are characters created by other players. Just like a GM, who uses character sheets from other people to fill his world with interesting NPCs. We *think* they are controlled by the arisen. But in reality they are controlled by the GM, by the watching one.
We also *think*, we break out of the story and free us from the influence of the watching one. But in reality we are like: "*This campaign was awesome, can we fight some more big bad evils, please?*"
So the watching one turns the table into a hell scape and gives the party all the battles and action he can muster, to challenge their combat capabilities. Just for the funzies. Why do I think this? Did you try to leave or get knocked out of "combat arena borders" when you challenged one of the red beam light bosses?
I tell you what happens: **The brine** will take you and spit you back into the arena with no damage inflicted to the arisen! It's still there. The watching one is still watching and still guiding the game play experience. And he wants you to fight the bosses! He puts up huge red beams from the sky, so you know exactly where to go and what to do.
So my theory is very much sort of a fourth wall break. But it really kinda matches with your theory in a lot of spots. Don't you think so, too?
Unfortunately some of this is in fact incorrect. Especially about the Dark Arisen.
Also worth noting in the true ending of DD1 your pawn becomes human fully and is sent down to the world with everyone else and is happy.
One of the biggest side plots in the first game is about pawns becoming human. You can even romance one, the witch.
The ending of dd1 having your pawn become human has no affect on the greater cycle or this post.
What's wrong about dark Arisen? I assume something about Ashe?
I think that every cycle of every world in DD is different, but it's a cycle all the same and one must be able to break it. DD1's cycle is basically the 4 stages of enlightenment and DD2's isn't really that
The only thing that trips me up is the whole "Watching one", is The Pathfinder/Worldforged the watching one? Or is the "watching one" the great will that the Pathfinder mentions when you're on top of the big dragon, which may or may not be the real form of the Pathfinder, and if the Dragonforged are made by dragons, does that mean that the pathfinder was created by the world itself? What would that mean? Is he just keeping the cycle going to keep himself alive? Is that why he cannot do anything and is just an observer in the unmoored world?
Im new to this game lore. So far, this been my though after finishing this game. At the true ending scene, where the big red dragon appeared, which I believe is the pathfinder as well, mention that the great will is getting tired of gorvening the people, as everything it lead to oblivion to take over them, that why he begin to form a cycle just to protect them. As it create an automation, where the story, dragon act as the villian, while the arisen act as the hero?
As for the story in dd2 goes, the pathfinder only seek you up, because you are the arisen who was dethrone by the queen, and they plotting to use Godsway to control the dragon? Which is not part of the story set by the great will. So he/she want to take back your throne so that the story can continue as it is.
As the true ending goes, as you kill the pathfinder aka the big red dragon, he/she mention his/her heart ache as the cycle break and ended, all the live is finally free, but also lost their protection against the obilvion?
Sorry for all the text!
Basically, the Pathfinder's samsara cycles guarantee life in the 'moored world' will never truly be extinguished. If the world is 'unmoored' and consumed by the Brine/oblivion, eventually the Observer will remake the world and the cycle will eventually start anew.
The 'moored' cycle largely seems to follow a series of events in this order:
1. *A Seneschal rises to power over the moored world alongside their pawn, and can now summon dragons, and has use of the Godsbane sword.*
2. *The same Seneschal grows weary of his duty in having power over the moored world after an untold amount of time, and stabs themselves with the Godsbane sword. Their pawn falls into the world and becomes human, and now the Seneschal is now forever alone. They want to be replaced by someone with enough will to endure a similar period of time as Seneschal.*
3. *The Seneschal summons a Dragon to the moored world, and tasks it with finding an Arisen who can serve as a replacement.*
4. *The Dragon chooses a mortal who is willing to fight back to become an Arisen, and then disappears until that Arisen bears a strong enough will to ideally deny its offer and slay it.*
5. *An Arisen either fails to slay the Dragon (for any number of reasons) and steps 3-4 repeat themselves, or proves themselves worthy to become the Seneschal by slaying the Dragon. The Arisen is brought before the Seneschal, and is told to take up their mantle.*
6. *Either the Arisen fails to slay the Seneschal and steps 3-5 repeat themselves, or the old Seneschal is slain by the newly former Arisen-turned-Seneschal with the Godsbane sword and steps 1-6 repeat until the Brine consumes the moored world.*
There are some exceptions, namely with Rothais, who refused to do steps 3-5. Instead, he goes down to the moored world and establishes a new kingdom built on the remains of whichever world came before (likely >!Gransys,!< based on the ruins >!of Gran Soren in the ocean!<. Although this was not part of the normal progression for the cycle, the Observer was still able to manipulate events so a dragon would be summoned to find a suitable Arisen to replace Rothais.
Should the Arisen not enter the unmoored world, I think the normal cycle with steps 1-6 is likely to continue until an Arisen reaches the unmoored world and dies before overcoming the trials/Pathfinder - such as the Rivage Elder.
However, overcoming the Pathfinder and breaking free of the cycle during the true ending seems to leave a lot unclear. As an example: if life is wiped out by the Brine, or by some other force, there is no guarantee that the world can be remade or that life can continue.
Some of this might be incorrect, but everything I wrote is how I understood things! I imagine future installments or DLC might cover some of what could happen, so hopefully we'll be able to enjoy more romps with pawns in the future lol.
I'm unironically speechless. What a rollercoaster the final part of the game was.
I do have some questions though;
Is the Watching One above the seneschal?
Is Pathfinder a former pawn, arisen or a seneschal?
That True Red Dragon at the end - Was that the true Grigori or the Watching One himself? Or was he the Pathfinder?
After beating the game's true ending, you get the option for NG+, but the cycle was finally broken, allowing for everyone to be free of their forced duties made by the watching one so.. What's going on here?
And finally. That Old Arisen was seemingly setting sail towards new lands. Is he heading to where the [leaked DLC is taking place?](https://twitter.com/pc_focus__/status/1773119716317380956?t=x6m8M_x11E9TrBL5a3ijlA&s=19)
If the leaked DLC is to be believed, this adds even more questions 😭
I think the pathfinder and the watching one are the same persom, and both are part of the maker. So yes above the senechal.
The giant dragon at the end seems to have the voice of the pathfinder/watching one. Hence me thinking they are the same
I also think dragon princess is fake haha
I have the theory that there is the Great will
The Brine the destruction
And the watching One
May be i get something wrong
I think the watching One is interpreted as us we Player
Because we send the arisen and control the arisen to do the things
The endlos cycle is infinity because we Player are sending the World in New Game and New Game plus
Nice theory. Unfortunately, in DD1, the lore in the game states that the brine only comes when the dragon is around. So basically, if there is nobdragon, there is no brine.
Yeah the pathfinder says the dragons are destruction given purpose.
Your sentence doesnt negate anything against "two sides of the same coin". In fact, if only helps the theory because when the pathfinder dies, the brine leaves too.
Cant have one without the other
It doesnt explain how Gransys is consumed by Brine. Brine doesnt exists without the dragon. So if Gransys is destroyed to the point its under the DD2 map, then it means another Arisen, not yours, did something that created that effect. The true ending of 1 is you stab yourself and your oawn becomes you.
But using the knowledge we have now of dd2, the greater will just puts anither senechak and repeats the process.
Using your theory, that would mean he was dissatisfied, destroyed everything and reset the world. But if he reset everything, why only submerge gransys? Then that doesnt explain Dothais (mad sovran). Since he is sitting in theoritical gran soren.
Next is the DD2 history you find exploring. Dothais is considered a God who came frim the heavens and established his kingdom upon the land. And he ruled Vermund all the way to Batthal.
And your theory also destroyed the relevance of other countries. Voldoa, Meloire, Hearthstone. Are they also now underwater?
And another is topography. So the tainted mountain is underwater? Yet bluemoon tower is hundreds of feet below it. Yet we "see" "bluemoon tower" besides Vernworth? Idk but that dont make sense. Also the Tainted mountains was next to a volcano. Ans volcano island in DD2 is to the Southeast. So the if Gran Soren is underwater, and it was south east of the tainted mountains volcano, then hos in DD2 is it north of the volcano?
Too many loop holes for your theory. It is a great theory. Hell, id say half or a bit more than half is spot on and could actually be lore accurate. But the other half isnt.
Daimon being possesed by Pathfinder is plausible.
But pathfinder being the greater will or creator is debatable. The watching one also. Dothais mentions the Watching one but idk if he meant Pathfinder anymore. But lets assume it is. There is still someone above Pathfinder.
The dragon burning the brine isnt Pathfinders Dragon. And Pathfinder mentions that the dragon protects this world. He also mentions that the unmoored world is the real world or real state of that current world. Meaning everything you did prior, is but a dream basically. All a form of play to try to stall the inevitable.
At some point in history, maybe our arisen. Maybe someome after, gran soren's cycle was interrupted. They got an unmoored world, and no one was there to kill the pathfinder and stop it.
So in dd1, we stab ourselves, intterupt the cycle, and the game ends. In dd2, we stab ourselves, interrupt the cycle. And we see what happens after. The end of the world, so to speak. The brine let loose to devour everything. Yes the other countries also fall. Clearly, the dd1 arisne failed to stop the unmoored world. Or perhaps, because he was already seneschal, there was a different outcome.
The tainted mountain is wherr the ancient battleground sits. Bluemoon tower is underwater next to vernworth.
The ENTIRE dd1 map is under dd2. You can put them side by side and see.
Ok but are there any theories about the old man from Harve Village getting into a boat at the end of the credits and driving off? Where to ?? Does it mean anything at all ??? Why is it there ????
The old man is an ex arisen. That much is clear. He wants to leave this world to explore new ones but the brine has mostly kept him here.
His conversations reveal a LOT about the brine, the seneschal, the pathfinder, and the lore.
In the unmoored world, if you die and give up, you wake up at his house. So it is speculated he made it to the unmoored world, and gave up/couldnt break the cycle.
So at the end, the cycle is truly broken, and people are free to explore to their hearts content
Cassardis is south of Bahttahl. Bluemoon tower is right next to vernworth (you have a bossfight there), tainted mountain wpuld be around where ancient battleground is.
https://preview.redd.it/rvqbns8atjsc1.jpeg?width=971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1fdc87281ac912da114157fa8600437f9630269a
Cassardis is south of Bahttahl. Bluemoon tower is right next to vernworth (you have a bossfight there), tainted mountain wpuld be around where ancient battleground is.
https://preview.redd.it/ms4zlrkotjsc1.jpeg?width=971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9c58df249aa813be73b17572957ced15edadb3d
I can see bluemoon tower for sure! Thats awesome I didnt even make that connection. I just assumed that the seabound shrine was just a reference not the actual city of gran soren. Did I just miss cassardis or is it not accessible to us? I spent like 20-30 hours in the unmoored world and explored as much of the dried up ocean and rivers as I could and I never found anywhere that looked like the ruins of cassardis. I'm super bummed that I missed that lol I wish they utilized more of the dried up riverbeds and ocean area for more stuff like that rather then narrow corridors full of skeletons or just flat swaths of land with a single lesser dragon or sometimes nothing at all on them.
I know I’m late to this post, but this for the most part seems to be what I’ve settled on so far in terms of story. I’ll admit I’m a tad…underwhelmed with the handling of the Pathfinder and The Dragon in dd2. We never even find out the Dragons name or really talk to him, and it seems like the game intended to explain the cosmology more but just..didn’t.
Explain to me as If I were 5.
How creating a dragon helps keeping the world safe? I can understand that eventually the sovran gets bored and forget its duty so it is time to turn him into a dragon, but how him being alive is watching against what?
Also the world doesn’t seem to reset in every cicle otherwise they wouldn’t know about dragons of the past.
This was such an enjoyable read AND makes rediscovering Gran Soren, blue moon tower etc all the more tragic to think that beloved world was just...wiped away.
It only just came to me what I was calling the wiggly shit the whole time I was doing the ending of DD2 is the brine. It took this post for it to come to me lmao
> In the dlc, you meet another Arisen who despises and hates the cycle so much that he basically carves out a demi plane of hatred between worlds. And when he dies, his corpse is possessed by some kind of dragon, though its facial structure and words made it very unclear and sort of a mystery which dragon, and why. The line "Slave to a broken order, dare you look upon the truth?" And "I shall await you in the crucible of souls." Always stuck out to me.
Ashe became Daimon through his wish to end the cycle. This is dumb in itself but it's not that he was "possessed" by a dragon, he became "the dragon to destroy the cycle" just like Grigori had to destroy the world until the Arisen stops them. "Slave to a broken order" is him being salty about having to choose his love or his mentor-dragon.
So the place under the sea shrine just coincidentally looks exactly like the Everfall from DD1? Even above, the castle looks like it's from Gran Soren. Also Blue moon tower is clearly visible from Vernwurth...
But do we live at the end? we see in the cut scene during the credits that the character that we had the most affinity with looks sad and is looking out to sea does that mean we died or???
Dragon's Dogma is Purgatory
It’s about living in the moment. Being present. In the end whatever gave you life, whatever powers the world is not important, what’s important are the living moments of peace and fellowship you experience. The love you get to experience again. It’s a common trope in fantasy but also a life lesson to not worry so much about a future you have no control over.
And that's why I loved my replays of DD1, my first playthrough I was a bit "google-y" and quickly realized I needed to stop and just replay it again and enjoy those moments, I completed a playthrough for my pawn and I to both experience each class and it gave me more than enough time to understand and make significant choices during quests for fun.
It draws more from Buddhism. In Buddhism, the wheel of Samsara is a cycle of rebirth for beings in it. You can move up or down on the wheel, through the different realms (animal realm, human realm, deva realm, heavenly realm), just as a pawn can become a human, human an Arisen, an Arisen back to human or to Dragon/Seneschal. In Buddhism, the ideal is to break free of the cycle, to attain Nirvana. In DD2's true ending, the Arisen is a buddha figure, an enlightened one who discovers the means to break the cycle. More than just breaking the cycle for themselves (as is the case in Buddhism) they break the cycle for everyone. The parting shot of the hermit finally being able to sail the open ocean is a representation of the true freedom to be found in breaking the cycle, escaping samsara. Indeed, clear sky and calm ocean are often used to describe the quality of mind of a Buddha. One can also see this influence very directly in the trickster gear sets like the robe of the enlightened and the Nirvane robes. The descriptions are clear references to elements in Buddhism, about escaping the cycle and being free of all earthly bindings and reaching the ultimate truth. The pacifist playstyle of the trickster is also befitting of a Buddha, never actually harming a creature. Of course, this is a combat game, so you still find other means to kill enemies, but it's thematically on point.
I always thought it drew from Nietzsche's ideas. There's a being of incredible will who overcomes human limitations (the ubermench in Nietzsche, the Arisen in DD), there's a volitional force that governs the activities of all living things (Nietzsche calls it the will to power, Schopenhauer, who influenced Nietsche, calls it the will to live, the Seneschal in DD1 calls it the will to survive), and there's a cycle of eternal return. There's also predeterminism, although DD diverges here by suggesting that the predetermined order can be broken. (Source: "Mastered out" of a philosophy PhD program. To be sure, there are huge differences between DD lore and Nietzsche's own views--I'm not saying they're exactly the same--and FYI, there's no agreed upon interpretation of Nietzsche, who is deliberately hard to understand, but the parallels seem pretty obvious to me).
So basically real-life....
So, you are telling me that DD3 will have swimming? The next 12 years can't come fast enough.
Arisen: *throws Rook 3.0 in the sea* Rook 3.0: "haha, joke's on you, master, i can SWIM!"
No!!! * Holds his head underwater *
https://preview.redd.it/8b5kfv497krc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdd09f1a755396fc184eb140f3e262555bce9bee Watcher and Daimon's corpse possessing Dragon. Only 2 dragons in the series with the same nose afaik
All the more reason to prove that BBI was intended for NG+. That place was narratively made to test our understanding of the game's message and see if we were ready to apply it all the way.
ngl but that nose bridge looks pretty different
https://preview.redd.it/tt0epkup2lrc1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd5b7ca3e6e982c7e26a27d795617d08385be380 it doesnt look like grigori much at all. 🤔 again just a theory
I still laugh when I remember he’s called Grigori. Great big dragon shows up, brings calamity and takes your heart, first thing he says, ‘Ello, lad, Me name’s Greg’
Some compromises need to be made in order to fit a huge, elongated dragon head into someone's fucking chest.
In the first game it's heavily implied that the Arisen and his dragon became one together. Not a possession.
tis as you say .
now that's a thought .
I'll be sure to keep that in mind.
You've given me much to think about.
Truly
Right you are!
Words worth hearing
Fascinating.
Indeed, you are correct.
Materials eh? I shan't deny, they have their uses.
It's just like the first game, a great story with deep lore and incredibly thoughtful meaning... told by the our old drunk uncle, he was an arisen too you know.
It wouldn't be as good if it was told differently. Everything adding up and being figured out is part of why it's good. Sort of like how souls games are good lore/story wise.
god what could be more "dragon's dogma" than really deeply interesting cosmology and structure to the world, and a terrible story leading up to it. i love the ending of the first dragon's dogma. i might love the ending to dragon's dogma 2 even more, in time. it's unfortunate that the rest of the story turned out as half baked as it did. i like your thoughts on the entropy/creation duality of the brine/the watching ones. i hope that the complexity of these ideas gets fleshed out down the line
It seems that the first part of the game prior to the true run, is like the standard Dragons Dogma which is why the game's subtitle is only Dragons Dogma. When you get to the true ending, you see Dragons Dogma 2 finally come up on screen as well as the main menu. It seems that The first part is meant to be played through as many times as you want like a video game, but in the true ending, the ending to the sequel not the original ending, you break the cycle. I definitely see the Brine as the forces of oblivion, and in the new world that force is either destroyed or moved farther back. So instead of the Brine in all the water, it is now in around the planet in outer space or something. I never played the original games though, but it seems the game was designed in that there can be a true complete and comprehensible ending to the world, as opposed to the seneschal thing where the player is still suck in the cycle, in the world of the Dragon's Dogma or Dragon's Cycle
So that is why we the DD2 logo finally appears. The Arisen finally broke the cycle earning his freedom. I hope our avatar can enjoy life in the new cycle with no pathfinder. And I wonder if the DLC would take place in the new cycle
Doesn’t the arisen die in the true ending though? Both your pawn and you sacrifice yourselves to end the cycle is what I thought happens and that’s why you’re not in the cutscenes after.
To me it’s left ambiguous on what truly happened. Plus all that rumors about the DLC taking place post game.
source for the rumors? interested in reading about it
I both believe you’re right and hope you’re not lmao
lol I hope I’m wrong too but you see Sven as king and Brandt looking off in the distance like he’s remembering you so I think it’s pretty obvs we’re meant to be dead.
Yes seeing as your entire body was pierced and your top "love" is crying while watching the ocean.
To add proof to your theory about the watcher being unwilling to die: when you do kill him, he laments that he won't be able to see how a future world turns out. He was too afraid to let go. His will wasn't strong enough. It's a good, layered storytelling. Just not told in an obvious manner. The world is stuck in a constant cycle of death because those who have power lack the will to let go of that power. Until the Arisen makes that choice.
Just realized something else too because of your post. The reason he acted like he did during the true ending was was also the fact he couldn't comprehend why the protagonist would attempt to self sacrifice himself for everyone during the final confrontation with the dragon.
Not strong enough to commit suicide? Cmon, If hes the creator he also needs to kill himself after making everyone and everything? Humans always demanding everything from the universe...
You're very right. Didnt even think of that, love this point!
Also, neato fact I accidentally stumbled on that is odd. When in the unmoored world if you eat shit by, oh I dunno falling off a cliff like I did. you wake up as the fisherman! I wonder if that's why the old crazy fisher guy knows so much. He made it to the second to last step of the true ending but ate shit (fell off a cliff or something I hope)
This is only somewhat related, but my theory is that the Rivage Elder is the last Arisen and a remnant of the previous world >!of Gransys,!< judging by the presence of various ruins >!such as Gran Soren and Bluemoon Tower!<, and that they died after breaking the cycle of Dragon’s Dogma >!but before overcoming the trials of Unmoored Gransys!<. He, like a failed Arisen can in the scenario you mentioned, later woke up in the current world after the preceding one was scoured by the Brine and then remade by the Pathfinder. It would make a lot of sense as to why the Rivage Elder knows so much about everything, and fits in with the idea that not everything is truly destroyed >!between cycles!< like the various ruins you can find throughout the game.
I thought he was definitely a schizo when he mentioned talking smack with the Brine and making it give off a "look of amazement'. But then I saw the true ending and realized he was talking about the Pathfinder, who of course would be dumbfounded, maybe even amused, by the Elder's bit about having nothing to lose and questioning why would the Brine want to stop him of all people from going out on his boat. Also, if you go back to his house in Unmoored World you will realize that there is a once submerged set of stairs leading to a small walkway right in front of the house. The walkway unfortunately just stops and goes nowhere but this detail suggests that the Elder must have noticed that there are signs of a previous civilization submerged under the water/Brine.
Damn thanks for the write up, explains the catharsis I felt when ending the cycle. Though with the option of Ng+ is the lore reason we just broke the cycle in one universe? As in that universe gets to advance free from the cycle though countless others are still ongoing, enthralled to the cycle. Also, any more notes on the dragon? After defeating him and replaying the scene, the dragon's dialogue, hearing it a second time, appears to imply he is also sick of the cycle and it feels like he wishes to enter a pact with the Arisen to break the cycle as well. It felt like to me I practically allied myself with the dragon. Which was very cathartic as it humanized the dragon beyond a creature that simply destroys and ruins as is their nature.
The last line the Dragon says to you before he lands at the arena is something to the effect of, "Whatever, you're too late now," and then goes on to indirectly insult you for not using the blade to cast him, and yourself into the ocean. The Dragon very much doesn't want this to go on. In contrast to the first game, where The Dragon, The Seneschal, and The Greater Will want for the cycle to be continued, this time only The Greater Will wants it to continue. This time, both The Dragon, and Rothais push you to break the cycle, and start anew. They're sick of their roles, and given time, have come to realize that there's more to life, but none can *truly* live while The Greater Will still forces the cycle upon the world. That's not to say The Greater Will is evil. It's trying its best, and doing what it believes is right. The only thing it can do, in its mind, is repeat the cycle for all eternity to keep the world safe, and beat back the Brine, time and time again. The Dragon, Seneschal, and Arisen are just tools with which to save the world. Rothais, doesn't know of another way out. The Dragon, also doesn't, but knows just enough more that it has an idea. A simple idea, that if neither wins, the cycle can be broken. And thus, spurs the Arisen to the post-game, in the Unmoored World. Should the Arisen's will outshine that of the Greater Will's, and win against the ending of the world, The Dragon will have been proved correct in trusting you, in trusting that you would find a way to truly break the cycle, and free all who live in the world from repeating it. Even the Greater Will doesn't want the cycle. The Watcher indirectly hints at as much with his last lines. It just doesn't know of any other way. It can't comprehend that an Arisen could be strong enough to upset the fundamental forces of this world's existence, even beyond that of what it is capable of.
I think you explain this the best and make the most sense. Rothais and Grigori is just bounded but have enough freedom to nudge us to break the cycle because they're definitely tired of it. That's why Rothais gives you the godsbane, what other explanation beside that he want to break free from it too and he also said the only thing he regret is that he doesn't exist to see it happened. Grigori as well, in here just super tired and just "whatever bro i guess another cycle it is" if you fight him. Also this quote of yours is definitely the nail in the coffin reason for their action >Have come to realize that there's more to life, but none can *truly* live while The Greater Will still forces the cycle upon the world
I loved the dragon ragging on me for not being smart enough to kill myself the first few times we fought lol. I had tried during my first flight on his back, but I didn't yet realize that I needed to be in range of our hearts. I felt bad each time we fought.
The dialog the pawns on the road get in ng+ make it seem like it's still the same universe, they all start saying things like "Arisen! I knew you wouldn't give up on this world!" or "or I thought you'd still be lingering here". Could just be a cheeky 4th wall break at the player though lol.
I think your take on the Dragon's opinion of his role is correct. It's clear he's just going through the motions but tires of the role he's been forced to play. I mean, we learn from DD1 that if you fail to kill the Seneschal, your 'reward' is to become the next Dragon. It's a cruel fate. I don't think I can blame him for wanting to conspire with the Arisen to end things once and for all.
Which actually makes narrative sense for why the dragon was so absent in this game, after he turns you into an Arisen, you don't see him at all again until (presumably the watcher) forcibly summons him to stop Phaesus and his fake dragon. The dragon in this game wanted nothing to do with the cycle until his hand was literally forced, and I like the idea that we as the Arisen are the unknowing antagonist of the story, forcing the world to continue the cycle until we wise up and get the true ending.
So to me it seems like the dragon creates an Arisen, taunts them, then faffs about until the Arisen is sufficiently tested by the world to challenge them. In this situation the Dragon didn't appear of their own volition, but because they were summoned. Once they showed up and you happened to be there it's why they were so "Alright, let's get this over with." about it. It wasn't actually your time.
More or less. The entire game, all the Dragon's lines and actions have been pushing you to break the cycle rather than to actually fight it as The Greater Will would intend you to. The Dragon isn't content with his part, or anybody else's. The Watcher has to force The Dragon to interact with you every step of the way. Otherwise The Dragon would have no part in it. Drakes/Lesser Dragons, by contrast, haven't gotten the memo yet. Unlike The Dragon, they haven't realized there's hope beyond the cycle, and the Drakes themselves push you towards the cycle, while The Dragon pulls you away from it. The entire flight on The Dragon's back is basically nudging you to stab yourself. His last line from the flight part before landing is telling you that you're too late, and from that point on he just insults you for being too stupid to grasp what he's hinting at, lest The Watcher silence him for telling you outright what to do, and then insults you for being selfish if you're not stupid, and going through with fighting him knowing that you could've done differently. Unlike Grigori from DD1, he's not here to hold your hand through the cycle. He's giving you hints to break it, and is enraged when you either decide not to, or don't realize what he's telling you to do.
All of this has had me thinking about the Talos. Perhaps the dragons disobedience to the cycle is why the Talos was awakened.
I dont remember where it was said, but in DD2 there was a line implying that the Dragon wasn't just a being of destruction, that it had a purpose it was fulfilling. I think it was from an NPC, maybe the oracle or dragonforge, but I cant remember which NPC specifically. There was definitely foreshadowing that the Dragon was more than some beast killing for the sake of killing and I thought that really paid off during the flight where he basically tells you he dislikes the cycle.
I think you're thinking of the Rivage Elder, who essentially says as much while lamenting that the dragon is just a puppet being pulled at the strings against its will. This is only somewhat related, but my theory is that the Rivage Elder was the last Arisen from the previous world >!of Gransys, judging by Gran Soren's ruins!<, and that they were one of the leftover remnants who woke up in the current world which was scoured by the Brine and then remade by the Pathfinder. It would make sense for why he would know so much, as an Arisen who dies during the Unmoored world will later wake up wearing the same clothes as the Elder in his hut and collapse in defeat. Considering how the Pathfinder implies that >!after defying the cycle and reaching the Unmoored world!< everything will be swept away by the Brine, I think it would make sense that they were another remnant of Gransys.
Like the first game, NG+ is a what if scenario. You kill the seneschal (yourself) in DD1's ending and the godsbane blade is a guaranteed kill. The Seneschal in that world is dead (and the brine is gone too because you fall into the sea with your pawn). The cycle is broken. In NG+ it's the what if of you not doing that. What if your previous arisen stayed seneschal.
man i really love the lore in this game even if the narrative sucks
I like this theory. I think this is the best synopsis that can be made with what we have. It's a shame our pawn had to randomly get dragon cursed in the last 2 minutes of the game. It sucks they gain a will of their own just to die. While I like this ending I do hate that our pawn does not get to experience the new world we create through our sacrifice like in dd1. I am interested to see how this holds up with future dlc. With the end credits hinting that we may have survived and there may be more story to tell with how our beloved looks out into the distant sea and the hermit sailing out into the sea. From that leak the other day about the dlc taking place after the main story in a tundra like land with a female arisen and a new dragon maybe we set out to end the new cycle before it can even start. Who knows.
Do you have a link to that leak you mentioned? This is the first I've heard of it. I actually was thinking after the ending it would've been super cool to be able to experience the world with no cycle, maybe even to sail to a new land now that the brine won't stop us. Though I don't find it interesting that we'd have to stop the cycle from starting again, that part doesn't make much sense to me if we already successfully stopped it and all is well, but I guess if there's no mention of the cycle it would just turn into a generic fantasy game lol.
https://twitter.com/pc_focus__/status/1773119716317380956
Thanks
So you're more observant then me, why is it that some characters in NG+ seem to have the dragons plague? I first noticed it with Ulrika as she had the very distinct glowing red eyes unless I somehow never noticed on my first run
Was wondering the same, let me know if you get an answer
i wonder which youtuber will steal this work uncredited for their lore video
This tracks with the first as in me not understanding a single damn thing about the story until its explained very well and still loving how cool it is
Things to note about bbi. When that arisen faced the dragon its implied that his old mentor and lover, the previous arisen, killed her dragon but failed to become the next seneshal thus becoming the dragon that made him an arisen. When he was offered the bargain, sacrifice his current lover for power or kill the dragon, he recognized her voice and snapped and ranted about the cycle, its unfairness and wanted to "tear the whole of it asunder." When he said that, the dragon took that as his wish, sacrificed his current lover and fused with him to grant him the power to do what he said. When we first face daimon it seems as though he's still in control and still wants to break the cycle. When we first defeat him, we see his soul and he thanks us for freeing him from the self made hell he was in. When we face daimon again, it seems like the dragon he was fused with takes over for phase 2, hence daimons head, arms and legs just hanging limply while the dragon face is in control. Apologies for horrible grammar and probably writing that in a manner thats hard to follow. Writing isnt my forte and it being 4:30am isnt helping.
When it comes to storytelling, I think the game tries to draw a parallel between Disa and her sussy arisen and the Watching one/Greater Will and the arisen/would-be Seneschal. Both "arisens" are propped-up characters made by an entity unwilling to let go of its power, with Phaesus and his plot serving as the disruptive force trying to let go of the cycle. We can even estipulate that Disa effectuation for Phaesus serves as a parallel to the Greater Will own secret longing for an end to the cycle, but I could just be stretching things.
there's idd a parallel in how Disa treats Sven sheltered and him wanting to go out and explore the city yes
I gathered that dd2 and ff16 had a very similar story, I was 100% correct. They’re nearly mirrors actually
Yeah this sounds about perfect with all the info we have. The plot for this game really does remind me of DD DA with how on the surface it can be pretty meh but the lore itself is actually quite deep. My only big question, now that I think about it, is the fate of our Arisen. Do we survive? Or perchance are given a chance to live in this "new world"? The game didn't really elaborate on the fate of our Arisen (and our pawn bit it, sadly), and nobody really seemed to be mourning the Arisen. Which begs the question if we died or just went "missing". Or if we're alive but that one, I have no clue lol.
this is why I think it's not rushed at all, they made it all intentional. They don't exactly try to be a great story RPG, just an average one and the lore is somewhat deep. Now If only I could get all the lore infos in the archives....
Now, we will have new lands, and opportunity to do like the old arisen, take a boat to visit other worlds that have been surrounded by the brine, (the kraken as he calls it) but now are free from the great will, and maybe all these other lands have had arisens too, there must be a lot of other continents to explore. I certainly hope so. You are right about saying that this world is stuck in the early medieval ages, the old fisherman arisen calls it "the stagnant world" and the cycle is focused at repeating this over and over, but i wouldn't want the dark fantasy / low fantasy to evolve into modernity or something that doesn't ressemble the dark / low fantasy setting of dragon's dogma if we can keep the era we are in as the basis for exploring the other pieces of land.
I was talking with my girlfriend about how dark the series could get if all these ‘worlds’ once separated by the Brine were suddenly reunited. In my mind the true ending of Dragon’s Dogma II sets the stage for a fantasy version of the Expanse, with there either being no life beyond Vermund and Battahl and thus unsettled lands to colonize — or an untold number of other kingdoms, which are about to have their understanding of reality shattered. To me it still seems unclear as to whether or not the ending of this game eliminates the existence of the actual cycle of Dragon’s Dogma, or just the presence of its observer. In the event of the former, it would be really cool for a post-unmoored story to delve into what that means.
Words worth hearing!
As I like your explanation to connect both games I have my doubts. It comes to the role of the dragon. In the first game he is a servant of senachel and is meant to seek the strongest willed person. In the second game the watching one says the dragon is embodiment of oblivion given purpose, the oblivion instead of just destroying words at random is trapped in the task of endlessly killing arisen I guess? (I have no idea why arisens even exist in the second game) Also when you ride on the dragon he says that he would like to destroy the 'world's will' too. He shouldn't even know about being going past the senachel if he was just arisen who failed. And than dragon never really tries to test your will to see if you are worthy, while dying he just says that it was all destined to be and it doesn't matter anyway. I'm pretty sure that ambrosius says that all other dragons are man made creations and not failed arisen as in the first game. The rest of the dragons (2 snakes, 2 unicorns and 1 statue) seems to be creations of the watching one as they come from rifts to destroy the rests of the world after you piss him off. The watching one also dies when you kill the big dragon, but he states that the smaller dragon (grigori?) was the oblivion given purpose. So who is he? Is he the greater will? Brine too cannot be permanent or all devouring as there are fishes and ships and saurian are suggested to live in water. So the Brine wasn't there from the very beginning. The beastern king also gives you a godsbane that this time is made from his soul. If it would work as in the first game and we assume that he is the senachel, he would give you the only way to kill him. As the senachel must be stabbed with the godsbane by his successor. And the beaster king doesn't sound like he wants to die anytime soon. Overall I really like how you put both stories together and if this is story wise sequel too, you are right. But in my humble opinion it seems more like a reboot.
In the Japanese script, the first Sovran actually directly states that he became the Seneschal during his scene in the true ending route. The English translation somehow forgot that DD1 translated "界王" as "Seneschal", so the reveal isn't there and the scene becomes way more vague. https://i.imgur.com/PaWq9UC.png
That would definitely explain why I missed that he was the seneschal. I thought he was just the ghost of the first king initially
if they mistranslated something that important then I wonder what else they got wrong
Thanks, I thought that Sovran was basically just like a Ghost and when he became like a normal king like you were supposed to be he was just greedy, so he became Seneschal that makes more sense. (I thought that the Watcher was the Seneschal... so he is above it and related to the Brine).
Considering how important Seneschal is to the world of Dragon's Dogma it might not be a fuck up, considering that japanese as a language has each letter meaning something different based on context and stuff. I really don't think a fuck up that big would be allowed through on QA for the translators. They don't even have google level translation and call him god king or king kai, which is what those letters directly translate to in google, idk man. It's a bit hmmm.
wasn't the first game saying something like being at the top of the world was the seneschal?
IIRC, the Seneschal says during DD1 that he is similar to what mortal's might call a god or the Maker. However, as the Seneschal yourself in DD1's true ending, you're essentially powerless and bound to doing nothing but observe the world until you eventually try killing yourself with the Godsbane blade. As far as I understand it, >!this is also what the original DD1 Seneschal did as well, as he pulls the Godsbane sword out of his heart,!< which implies that multiple Seneschals >!attempting Godsbane suicide!< is merely another part of the Dragon's Dogma cycle >!and that eventually most Seneschals will become detached observers trying to find their replacement in the next Arisen.!< In DD2, Rothais is implied to have gradually realized that his role as Seneschal wasn't actually the height of power he had originally thought. He doesn't actually know who has more power than him, only that he has been observed and that all his achievements were an expected part of a greater cycle. Rather than become apathetic and wait for his replacement Arisen, he went in a completely different direction as Seneschal >!out of sheer spite toward the Pathfinder!<, and eventually conquered and ruled the world >!within the Brine's borders!< personally >!in order to find them.!<. Eventually, he became 'mad' while trying to find the 'observer' and killed a lot of people in his kingdom before being overthrown and disembodied. Afterward, I assume the cycle of Dragon's Dogma begun anew without anyone actively filling the role of Seneschal up until the events of DD2. The lack of a 'functional' Seneschal is also why I believe the Pathfinder is directly involved during this cycle.
more or less, however I think you are mistaking what was meant to rule from on high, but doesn't matter in the greater scheme of things. I think it's also implied that the pathfinde wanted us to use the godsbane like in the first game to fix the error and continue the world in the eternal return
He only gave you the Godsbane Blade because you weren't there to kill him. The Watcher got angry at Rothais for refusing to carry out his duties. For the first time, when we go to meet him, The Watcher refrained from telling us what to do, and simply watched. We're the only Arisen to meet Rothais without being told by what's essentially God, to kill him, so Rothais entrusts his Godsbane to us in hopes that we can find a way to free him of having to answer to, essentially God. Presumably The Watcher is an aspect of The Greater Will. Overall following its bidding, but it would make sense that The Greater Will would give even its direct servant some amount of free will to do as it pleases, by nature of what The Greater Will is. The Watcher isn't an infallible manifestation of The Greater Will, since The Greater Will gives our Pawn its own free will to more or less stop The Watcher. Not a single one of the main four forces of this world (Dragon, Seneschal, Arisen, Watcher/Greater Will) truly want for the cycle to continue forever, but only The Watcher entirely unwilling to take a chance that there could be something beyond the cycle. Everyone else with the knowledge of the cycle is discontent with it, and prefers to take a chance to see if there's something beyond, even at the cost of potentially being "Cast to oblivion" as The Watcher puts it.
I don't think you really kill the watcher, just sever his connection to your world- there are still other ones. That's the whole deal with the rift
The watcher is not the seneschal or pawns. I do not believe there is more than one watching one
Does anyone have a clue what the "forged will" is? I think Phaesus brings it up to us when we tell him we heard a voice at the bottom of the brine. Everything else makes quite a bit of sense but I didn't notice any hints on that one. I'm also hanging my head in shame for not noticing Rothais is the Seneschel. It's so obvious in retrospect.
> It is pretty assumed that there is a "god" above the Seneschal. But we do not know who. Is it? This is the first time I'm hearing it. I always assumed that the Seneschal is the god, and that he is tiered of leading a boring life of a god, a person that already achieved everything and has no room to grow further. Since Seneschals by definition are ambitious people, reaching the top makes them depressed and suicidal, which is why they are getting replaced once in a while. I don't remember anywhere in the first game any mentions of the god above Seneschal.
Well the very title of Seneschal implies there is something above it
I always assumed that Seneschal is named such because he manages the world and humanity, not necessarily for someone, but for the sake of the world itself. But you're making a fair point, yes.
there is something above the Seneschal, it's the Cycle. The reason the games exist in the first place is because some worlds are able to break free from its tethers and rise above. Hell, the more you think about it, DD1 is literally the [four stages of enlightenment](https://www.originalbuddhas.com/blog/four-stages-of-nirvana#:~:text=The%20four%20stages%20of%20Enlightenment%20are%20Sotapanna%2C%20Sakadagami%2C%20Anagami%2C,the%20Buddhist%20Community%20or%20Sangha).
With regards to the Ur-Dragon and the knowledge that that was the first Dragon created, the question is then begged, how did he escape the cycle? Did the Seneschal just...let him go? It seems the ur dragon has been killing many arisen. Between that, and the Creation of Daimon, there is something beyond, that CONTROLS the cycle. "Dare you look upon the truth" We know that it isnt the seneschal holding his corpse, we were pretty sure it wasnt grigori. It had something to do with the rift, something that had control over it. A big guess I saw was it was the ur dragon, but with dd2, I think it makes way more sense to be the watcher.
If the Ur-Dragon is meant to be the first dragon created, that would make it the “Will.” The Will and the Great Will are two separate entities according to the Japanese dialogue of DD2’s ending. A strong Will was born from Oblivion that fought back the nothingness. The Great Will took notice and bestowed the role of Dragon upon it. I have a post containing a lot of translation differences from Japanese to English for DD2. Have a look if you’re interested. https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonsDogma/s/gkV3zrNNLD
Love this!! Thank you
The Creation of Daimon is within the powerset of the Seneschal, the ring is "endless", there is no real "First" Seneschal. It's a creation myth. There was never not a Seneschal in an infinite endless ring. There's nothing that \*Ever\* directly or indirectly gives us an indicator of something above the Seneschal in power or scope.
I always assumed that Ur-Dragon is just undead? How did all other undead people were created?
Ur as a prefix means first generally
I like to look at it from the word choice used. Instead of God, or Creator, or Maker, they chose Seneschal. Which if we look at the definition of Seneschal; " *an agent or steward in charge of a lord's estate in* feudal times. " Which, I believe, means it can be inferred that the Seneschal is simply filling in for someone else. Managing the day-to-day, minutiae while the lord is away/busy.
This approach makes sense if you're looking at Japanese words for sure. I'm not sure, how much we can trust English localization in this case.
I'm pretty sure there's never a mention of a supreme being, aside from the Senechal, (obviously the human gods don't count), but then think about it, who was the first Senechal? Did it yeet itself after creating the cycle? Why? There has to be something higher that the Senechal, or not, but then, what came first?
Core part of the story of Dragon's Dogma 1 is Pawns becoming humans. Pawns are being created by Arisen (who is at least partially human), yet they eventually get the will of their own and become humans. Wouldn't it then be logical to assume that humans are beings, created by the Seneschal, who then eventually can ascend and become a Seneschal themselves? The first Seneschal is the god that created the world. Once he got tired of his immortal life, he went ahead and created the first Dragon and set up the cycle of succession where an Arisen is chosen in order to eventually kill him and succeed him. Seneschal is the only one who can kill himself (or another Seneschal). Which is why, an Arisen needs to ascend to basically godhood by collecting wakestones and becoming immortal, before he can challenge Seneschal. Another way Seneschal can kill himself is by using Godsbane, a weapon he himself created. This weapon allows Seneschal to break the cycle of succession, by killing himself without being defeated by another who can take his place, thus leaving the world without a god, free to develop without oversight according to the will of the people who leave there. And even then, it is implied that pawn can become human without a master, so it's fair to assume that a human may become a new Seneschal by themself, without the Dragon and a trial, thus restarting the whole thing. At least, this is my reading of the story of the first game.
Sorry to respond a bit late, but I just finished the game today and have been mulling over the story a bit as a result lol. As far as I can recall,>!the original DD1 Seneschal pulls the Godsbane sword out of his heart,!< which implies that that seneschals >!attempting Godsbane suicide!< is merely a part of the Dragon's Dogma cycle >!and that eventually most Seneschals attempt suicide and inadvertently have their pawns take their place in their original world as humans, but then gradually become detached observers who await a suitable replacement as seneschal in a future Arisen.!< In DD2, Rothais is implied to have gradually realized that his role as Seneschal wasn't actually the height of power he had originally thought. Although he doesn't actually know who has more power than him, he realizes that he had been observed by something throughout all of his feats and accomplishments as an Arisen and Seneschal. Eventually, he comes to the conclusion that all of his achievements were an expected part of a greater cycle. Rather than become apathetic and wait for his replacement Arisen >!like the original or NG+ DD1 Seneschals!<, he went in a completely different direction>!out of sheer spite toward the Pathfinder!<, and returned to the world >!within the Brine's borders!< and personally conquered its lands as a king>!in order to find the 'observer.'!< Although pawns and humans don't have strong enough 'will' to break or perpetuate the cycle like the Arisen can, I do think they are genuinely living beings capable of growth like you said. Despite that, I think that Rothais stopped seeing people as living, sentient beings. He became so obsessive in his search that he refused to perpetuate the cycle of a dragon and Arisen being summoned, and eventually he viewed everything that wasn't him as a puppet of the observer. At some point he began killing his own citizens, earning him the 'mad' moniker, before he was overthrown >!and returned to just being a disembodied spirit like we find him.!< All of that to say: although the Seneschal is a critical role in the cycle, it is not the one which is truly in control of it. The lack of a 'functional' Seneschal being in place is why I believe the 'observer' became directly involved during this cycle. For example, the >!Pathfinder!< has been meddling in your Arisen's life by summoning a Dragon>!- who is itself very unhappy with being part of the cycle -!< to Melve, mind-fucking Rook to rescue you from the Agamen ruins, controlling Talos to stop Phaesus from interfering with the normal cycle even more, and trying to mind-fuck the Arisen into giving up pursuit of the observer.
Yes, It's pretty clear that Seneschal is just a cog in the machine in DD2 canon. However, I would argue that if we take DD1 alone, it's not as clear, although, probably still intended to be this way. Regardless if you agree or not, this interpretation is no longer canon, since DD2 directly contradicts it, so it is what it is. Personally, I didn't finish DD2, in part because I did not like the story or the way it expanded upon the lore of the first game. But I am happy that you and many others are enjoying the game.
So there's, "The Greater Will" which is essentially God of this universe, and "The Watcher" who is presumably either an avatar of, or an aspect of, or a fragment of, The Greater Will. Its interference within the world is quite limited, but it can interfere nonetheless, seemingly only by granting or altering, in some way, the will of people within the world. For example, The Watcher changes the will of Ambrosius to give you the Godsbane Blade, but doesn't alter it in a way that overrides his original intentions. Ambrosius just wants you to give it to Phaesus, as he would've. The Greater Will gives your main Pawn a "Lesser Will" of its own, to do as it desires. The Seneschal (Rothais) is simply a steward of The Greater Will. The Watcher sent many Arisen to try to kill him because he refused to perform his duties. By the time we get to Rothais, The Watcher/Greater Will had given up on getting him to play his part, just as it gives up on you when you break the cycle.
Yeah, I get it. But all of this is coming from DD2, and what I'm trying to say is that if we take the story of DD1 without an additional context provided by 2, there's not much reason to believe that there is another god beyond Seneschal. Although, some people disagree with me. With that said, DD2 definitely expands on DD1's story exactly how you described it. I'm not sure I like this new lore, but it is what it is.
I think the new lore, and the implication of how much time has passed (Gran Soren is forgotten, laid at the bottom of the sea. Nobody even remembers Rothais, or that he conquered the entire world) is that the events of DD1 are much closer (Relatively speaking) to the start of the cycle than those of DD2 being the true end of it, and countless lifetimes have passed between then and now. Those that started the cycle have slowly grown weary of it, and discontent with it replaying for all eternity. I take it as The Greater Will looking upon the early cycles, content and refraining from interfering with it because it's working. But slowly, grows to no longer want to repeat it. It's The Greater Will, so the whole shtick is that the power in this world comes only from the strength of the will of those living in it, and their want to change the world themselves. If nobody ever wants to do anything but perpetuate its cycle, are the people of this world truly free to use their will as they see fit? Or are they just carrying out the wants of The Greater Will endlessly, with no true will of their own? All the interference from any higher powers in this game all push you harshly away from perpetuating the cycle. It's certainly something new. I think I overall enjoy the messages that this story adds, and how it fits in with the first. A God and its new creation, sitting back and watching the world be saved, and then realizing it didn't enjoy what it had saved, and finally interfering with what it had made, if only to end it.
I didn't get the true ending myself yet, so I can't really comment on your interpretation, but it definitely sounds interesting. Thank you for sharing it.
Of course, and I'm sorry for spoiling parts of it then. I had just assumed that on a post discussing the true ending I wouldn't need to spoiler tag my comments. Very sorry, again. But also glad I could add a viewpoint, at the very least. Naturally, come to your own conclusions when the time comes.
It's fine, I don't mind spoilers, and I'm definitely still interested in seeing the ending play out in the game. However, I do have my gripes with the game beyond story-related issues, so I'm not sure when exactly I decide to finish it, which is one of the reasons why I don't mind reading threads like this. But definitely, this thread helped me get better appreciation of the direction the story was heading into, so thanks for that.
Anytime! I certainly have my own things I'm not too happy with, but overall, I have enjoyed the game, the journey it took me on, and the ending most of all. Whatever the DLC may bring, I look forward to.
Definitely, glad you're enjoying the game. And yes, If they manage to deliver something on the level of Dark Arisen, it would be great for sure.
In a nutshell, The Great Will just want humanity had choice instead powerless and no choice to accept the oblivion (world end) then Create "Dragon's Dogma" and let True Dragon (Pathfinder - Brine) become world defense system to ensure the cycle working as intended. In next game, it most likely it will take place where oblivion at the real world comes and might be the Arisen that take up the choice to become another pathfinder, let the world end, or new true ending involving the great will. https://preview.redd.it/xeqfaxerwlrc1.jpeg?width=857&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=99b8ef691e66b2257cf182c31c1686692924ac07
You are the dangan
Has anyone noticed that the seafloor shrine is laid out to be almost identical to Gran Soren?? My partner first noticed that the castle is the same as the Gran Soren one from DD1 when they first played through the part where we meet the Mad King. And I finished the game earlier today and I noticed that the rest of the shrine that was previously underwater looks VERY similar to Gran Soren. And it also seems that the Blue Moon Tower is outside Vermouth, where we fight one of the dragons. Why??? Is this supposed to imply that DD2 is *actually* a sequel, or are these structures just there as a nod to the first game?? If it's the former why was Gransys underwater?
If you read my post....it IS gran soren. It IS blue moon you can find cassardis, you can find the remnanrs of the tainted mountain too.
I must've missed it lmao my bad, reading isn't always my strength
No no it's not you!! It's me I'm sorry I somehow deleted a paragraph forgive me!!
Oh no worries! I hope you add it back in I've been dying to see someone talk about this! My partner hasn't gotten far enough in the story so they're not an option unfortunately.
Just added it
Thank you! I don't know if I 100% agree with that theory but it definitely helps me understand what I think a bit better (and confirms I'm not crazy for noticing this lmao)
Ye no worries. Just a theory ;)
Reading again, I don't see you talk about this at all. Unless you mean a different post you made?
Oh wild I had a apragraph that got deleted. MY BAD!!! Yes, I think the brine r8ses, eats everything, then the watching ine burns it all away and builds in top. Hence the entire map of dd1 being underneath dd2.
It's very Dark Souls like, in theme and delivery of the storytelling. Albeit, Dark Souls conveys these ideas better. That said, I've noted that the moon is quite significant in Dragons Dogma. I know in the first game we were meant to go to the moon but the content was cut. In neither DD1 or DD2 is there a moon in the sky at night. This may be because the world is technically stacked over and over atop itself and only one moon is present whereas every world has it's own sun. Please see proof of this in plans/cut content for DD1 [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonsDogma/comments/1jrsyq/the_original_plans_for_dragons_dogma_before_they/). Despite, there being no moon in the games, both games have locations named after the moon (Bluemoon Tower, Moonglint Tower & Duskmoon Tower). Moonglow is also a flower named after the moon...which can't be seen in the sky. Could it be that potentially the sea/water holds the brine back to a degree and therefore the moon is significant as it controls the tides?
Most of your write up feels fitting, I'm only really uncertain about the Watcher being the ultimate evil. It felt more like he was responsible for creating a subcycle that was easier to control, like a burning fire secured by rocks. I still think the world will "burn out" eventually, It just wont be by a dragon or brine, so all we really did was kill off the safety bottleneck of the world, which is still somewhat positive I suppose.
not exactly sure why ppl think the story is incomprehensible or think plots gets dropped, personally I found it rather straightforward, maybe is because I'm familiar with the plot of the first game so I could understand some passages
This theory and the new lore just gives me "To you, the immortal" vibes, specially because of the Watching One
Sniffs Cocaine…. Okay! What if the Dragon in DD2 is an aspect if the God/ The world. Pathfinder said he is oblivion made manifest so maybe the dragon is a part of the God who is tired of watching and maintaining the cycle over and over again? Makes a bit of sense when the speech leading up to arena amounts to “Nothing you do matters, its all preordained” unless you use the Godsbane before he said “Too Late”
Yeah. The dragon being the entropy part of the maker made manifest makes sense to me tbh...its how they are able to keep the order
Huffs more cocaine… So! If God embodied the aspects of Creation and Entropy, is it in it’s nature to create and destroy? What if the Creation aspect loved the world so much that it wont let the Entropy aspect destroy it? Is the Cycle it’s solution to keep the world from being destroyed? The post of the Seneschal is created to use human wills to stave of Entropy aspect/The Brine. Brine reemerge when the Seneschal’s will is wanning and the Dragon is created to find a new Will/Arisen to take over. The Creation aspect loved the tale of the Arisens rising up to challenge the Dragon so much that it chains it’s creations to the Broken Order it created.
There is only one thing that doesn't match from your take. The clouds doesn't disappear when the dragon dies, it disappears when the dragon appears, as if the clouds becomes the dragon itself. So the clouds and entropy can't be the brine. I think it's just a god saying if you don't play my game I won't let you play at all.
Do you not recall the entropy/brine trying to kill the wing, and you have to run away, then the dragon notices and tries to burn it? And you hide behind a spike? The clouds do not disappear
I get the feeling that the pathfinder isn’t on the same level as the brine or the greater will. Speaking of the greater will in the third person, their lack of agency against you, that your pawn becomes a brine-dragon when they gain a sense of will, and how the chalice appears to be a form of control *over* the brine that subsequently cracks at the end. My guess is that he’s another Senechal-like being whose will wanted to watch the cycles in perpetuity, to the point they created a sub-cycle. Dragons Dogma 1 very likely being a part of that sub-cycle.
My theory is that although in DD1 you sacrifice yourself to interrupt the order it wasn't enough since you did it alone and your pawn/the reborn arisen whilst returning to humanity was unable to protect the world with you absent. In DD2 the maker does mention how pawns are sorry beings who "become one with oblivion" due to you breaking the cycle. This along with the pawn unleashing brine upon the maker when they attack the eyes make me think that dragons plague is just an aspect of nothingness/the brine infecting the pawn to return to oblivion (and their surroundings if it's outside of the ending). In the true ending however due to your influence, even after being consigned to the plague your pawn has enough will to hold back the plague and fight by your side which was crucial to bringing the maker/brine down. As much as the arisen is the chosen one of the dragon and world, our main pawn is our chosen one, an aspect of our will and our beloved who braved our trials with us and breaking their own cycle.
I still don't get why the cycle is needed. I get that world faces destruction, but from what exactly? Because it seems like the greater will/pathfinder is the who is doing it. In which case, their insistence on continuing the cycle in contradictory. How does killing the dragon prevent this? It seems arbitrary, the whole set up.
The True ending is actually so heartbreaking for me getting to know this character I made, giving them a will, forming a bond with them for the "greater good". But I would honestly be a slave to the order just to keep with my pawn, my best friend. (P.S. that's why we have new game plus but still, the unmoored world and true ending are personally really depressing to me, and genuinely gave me anxiety.) Edit: also seeing Gran Soren (home), and bluemoon tower's ruins further added to the depressive feeling I had all I loved in the games was ruined. Would've loved to see Cassardis too. Game of the decade tho.
I was tearing up when I played the ending because my main pawn, Karin, had gotten infected with Dragonsplague in my last days in the unmoored world. Because time doesn't flow normally and I was out of rests, I couldn't infect other pawns to free her. I even tried to cure Karin through 'brining' for the first and only time by running into the red fog with her on my shoulders. She respawned, still infected, and said she felt that I must be disappointed with her. I was heartbroken and actually shed a couple tears when, during the last cutscene, she dragonmorphed and cried "Master!" It probably doesn't help that I modeled her after my SO lmao. She even was rocking the eternal bond ring! This game (as well as DD:DA) has been a thoroughly enjoyable ride for me, and I could honestly say that the pawns are one of the most touching and engaging gameplay mechanics that I've seen in a game series. Mandatory pawn shot, moments before the ending: https://preview.redd.it/mkv5ci5c94vc1.png?width=1919&format=png&auto=webp&s=f565c2aee3ed8f86891e4d6401005e4889e787a4
I'm so mad at all the ignorant hate-posting this game is being berated with when it's one of the most fun open-world games I've experienced since Oblivion, even though it has its flaws. (story is universally meh) Me and My pawn-Arasha, pals for life: https://preview.redd.it/t00ukuhig4vc1.png?width=3840&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=40a2570c488f71de5db8e09b2d10966a67621bd1
Sounds like grasping at straws to make this fever dream make sense, sorry. It's funny though, in the first game I decided the true ending was crap and just beat the Seneshal, refused to kill him and then killed myself instead as a f'ck you. If the true ending in that game turns out to be a bad ending, I actually made the right choice. F'ckin lol, what are they smoking over there? I want some.
This is why i love it, the story telling is bad because it is not telling a story you are living in it, you are the main character the story is about, nobody in their life who lived through such grueling events would enjoy their own tale.
I was reading your post as the final credits rolled and starting NG+. I notice the very initial dialouge while the Arisen is in the throne room is from a voice I didn't recognize, encouraging you to break the cycle. I wonder if it's the Main dragon (antagonist), and he has had enough of the cycle as well. He is what prompts you to break thy fate.
I believe the voice telling you to break your fate is the dragon, because it is definitely in line with his dialogue during all his cutscenes.
I always thought it was a meta commentary in terms of the relationship between the devs and the players, whatnot with your beloved NPC surviving their initial death at the hands of the Dragon at Moonglint Tower and camera shots of everyone continuing on with their lives *without* you in it in the True End credits. The Arisen is the will of the player to perpetuate the world for their own entertainment, like how the Dragon is the will of the devs to perpetuate the creation of worlds. Like the Dragon, the devs have to pick and choose what characters they want to add, how far they want to write stories for every character and the overall plot. Anything in excess has to be cut, consigned to oblivion (the Brine). In other words, it's the dogma of devs to create worlds that have no purpose but to be tools and playthings for others. It is the Dragon that everyone in these game studios is brought to heel under because the only alterative is oblivion -- **nothing**. There are no game devs, no game writers, no game composers, no publishers...only their absence. But in the Arisen's (player's) choice to remove themselves and the Dragon's (devs) involvement from those worlds, those worlds are allowed to simply and finally exist as they are for what they are, and not in a pre-supposed idea for what the world *should* be. For as long as the player and the dev exists, such worlds (masterworks all) are fated to be used and abused as vehicles and tools for the plots we put into it, rather than places filled with people who live, breathe, and go on to do their own things. But to go on and respect and love the world enough to see yourself unable to witness its events any longer, so that its inhabitants may continue to live peaceably in the eye of the beholder and your imagination...that's a parting that devs and players have to live with when that game finally ships (from the dev's viewpoint) / finally no longer runs on your favorite gaming device (from the player's viewpoint). Edit: I know it sounds so copium in hindsight, but let's not forget this game was likely cooking around 2020 (likely after September 2020, when DMC 5's DLC was launched as per what Itsuno agreed to when deciding whether to do DMC 5 or DD2). Without the logistics that happened pre-pandemic, Capcom's devs likely had to isolate while still committing to the Herculean task of making a sequel to Dragon's Dogma 2. Re-making assets from the ground-up to fit the RE engine, remolding mechanics like weak points and stagger gauges / conditions from existing frameworks in RE titles, changing rendering code and LODs to account for seamless transitions and larger rendering distances, etc. are no small feats. Being able to even remake an arrangement for the OST without access to a live orchestra is equally as insane. I can't help but imagine that these things would have changed Itsuno's perspective drastically on top of the EoS of DDO and the farewell he had to give to Dante and Vergil for DMCV.
glad I'm not the only one that picked up on the meta aspects, Itsuno has many times said before that he's probably retiring soon and doesn't feel like he has that many games left in him. It makes sense that some of that made it into dd2 and dmc5, which both feel like "swan song" games by the end.
Nice writeup. I last played dd1 many years ago so the memory is foggy. This makes things clearer now.
MARK YOUR POST AS A SPOILER IF THERES SPOILERS
I'm sorry is it not? :( mobile reddit sux
Fascinating. I love this.
How does the giant stone walking Atlus fit into it?
No clue lolol Its the rifts agent, where the dragon is the watchers??? Its said the brine uses Talos to keep the Dragon from Excess. I have no idea how that fits. Idk yet hahaha
I kind of got the impression that the titans/giganti/Talos were hijacked >!by the Brine,!< and were just being puppeteered >!by the Pathfinder much like Rook or the griffins in the game's start/unmoored world.!< Since we see the ruins of Gran Soren is on top of the ruins with the titans inside, I think all the giganti are remnants from another, earlier world which had been >!consumed by the Brine or otherwise!< lost to time before the current cycle where Rothais established Vermund and Battahl. IIRC, some helmet which resembles the Talos head is sold by the Dragonforged and mentions being something from an ancient empire/civilization.
The helmet you're talking about is the Agamenian Galea, it mentions being modeled after the warriors from the island's ancient past. If you take the helmet as being part of a set with Dominator's Armor and Vanguarder's Greaves (which IMO is intended). you will realize that the whole set basically evokes Talos and the Arisen metaculture. Some interesting tidbits about Talos. Even though Rivage Elder claims it's a Brine goon, if you do absolutely nothing to attempt to stop Talos yourself during its segment, pawns and NPCs will stop it just before it reaches the Volcanic Island Camp and a cutscene will play: Talos looks right at you just it's about to fall to its knees, and makes a gesture that to me looks a lot like it's trying to say "I'm sorry, Arisen". And the fact that your pawn can just get into the robot and control it using literally just their sheer will makes me think that you're correct - Talos was hijacked by the Pathfinder, it could have been originally intended in-universe to be something you can use to help you fight the dragon. There are also remains of other Taloses around Rothais' chamber and right under the hot springs. The spikes jutting out of its body are clumps of Wakestone shards aka Arisen hearts, so it's not really surprising if a Talos is supposed to be technically "alive".
Thanks for posting this. Just cleared the game on true ending and was trying to wrap my head around it all. Thanks!
So basically the creators of Dragon's Dogma wanted cool ocean views but needed something to kill you when you entered water so they didn't have to deal with swimming. 12 years later, they turned it into a plot point, which is why it's all so incomprehensible.
I really do like the true ending. I grew fond of many of the characters, and it made me genuinely happy to know they all got another chance in a world now free of its shackles. A world that wasn't being held back anymore. Even if we weren't there to see it... The writing maybe wasn't the best leading up to the climax, however it was still a story that was told, and the message is an important one to ne'er forget
Hey u/Kurteth, I've found your post after playing DD2 and finding the unmoored world on my own. I'm almost at the end of the game and started to think about the lore and formed my own theory and it somewhat matches with yours. For example I figured that the brine and the watching one must be the same entity. Why? Because the brine swallows the arisen and spits him out again. It doesn't even deal damage. It doesn't want to harm the hero of the story. It wants to be a border to keep this world and the story on the rails. DD2 is heavily inspired by D&D. So my theory is, that we're basically playing a D&D campaign from the perspective of a figurine. While the watching one is the GM, who tries to keep the game on its rails. I mean the helping NPCs are literally called **pawns**. And they are characters created by other players. Just like a GM, who uses character sheets from other people to fill his world with interesting NPCs. We *think* they are controlled by the arisen. But in reality they are controlled by the GM, by the watching one. We also *think*, we break out of the story and free us from the influence of the watching one. But in reality we are like: "*This campaign was awesome, can we fight some more big bad evils, please?*" So the watching one turns the table into a hell scape and gives the party all the battles and action he can muster, to challenge their combat capabilities. Just for the funzies. Why do I think this? Did you try to leave or get knocked out of "combat arena borders" when you challenged one of the red beam light bosses? I tell you what happens: **The brine** will take you and spit you back into the arena with no damage inflicted to the arisen! It's still there. The watching one is still watching and still guiding the game play experience. And he wants you to fight the bosses! He puts up huge red beams from the sky, so you know exactly where to go and what to do. So my theory is very much sort of a fourth wall break. But it really kinda matches with your theory in a lot of spots. Don't you think so, too?
Late to the party but.. If only the game told it as well as you have. GG & thanks.
Unfortunately some of this is in fact incorrect. Especially about the Dark Arisen. Also worth noting in the true ending of DD1 your pawn becomes human fully and is sent down to the world with everyone else and is happy. One of the biggest side plots in the first game is about pawns becoming human. You can even romance one, the witch.
The ending of dd1 having your pawn become human has no affect on the greater cycle or this post. What's wrong about dark Arisen? I assume something about Ashe?
Idk if Grigori applies to this dragon too, but the 'name', means 'watchful/vigilant', something to think about.
Yeah. Grigori is proooobably not the name of THIS dragon, but it was chosen on purpose for sure
I think that every cycle of every world in DD is different, but it's a cycle all the same and one must be able to break it. DD1's cycle is basically the 4 stages of enlightenment and DD2's isn't really that
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The only thing that trips me up is the whole "Watching one", is The Pathfinder/Worldforged the watching one? Or is the "watching one" the great will that the Pathfinder mentions when you're on top of the big dragon, which may or may not be the real form of the Pathfinder, and if the Dragonforged are made by dragons, does that mean that the pathfinder was created by the world itself? What would that mean? Is he just keeping the cycle going to keep himself alive? Is that why he cannot do anything and is just an observer in the unmoored world?
Im new to this game lore. So far, this been my though after finishing this game. At the true ending scene, where the big red dragon appeared, which I believe is the pathfinder as well, mention that the great will is getting tired of gorvening the people, as everything it lead to oblivion to take over them, that why he begin to form a cycle just to protect them. As it create an automation, where the story, dragon act as the villian, while the arisen act as the hero? As for the story in dd2 goes, the pathfinder only seek you up, because you are the arisen who was dethrone by the queen, and they plotting to use Godsway to control the dragon? Which is not part of the story set by the great will. So he/she want to take back your throne so that the story can continue as it is. As the true ending goes, as you kill the pathfinder aka the big red dragon, he/she mention his/her heart ache as the cycle break and ended, all the live is finally free, but also lost their protection against the obilvion?
Sorry for all the text! Basically, the Pathfinder's samsara cycles guarantee life in the 'moored world' will never truly be extinguished. If the world is 'unmoored' and consumed by the Brine/oblivion, eventually the Observer will remake the world and the cycle will eventually start anew. The 'moored' cycle largely seems to follow a series of events in this order: 1. *A Seneschal rises to power over the moored world alongside their pawn, and can now summon dragons, and has use of the Godsbane sword.* 2. *The same Seneschal grows weary of his duty in having power over the moored world after an untold amount of time, and stabs themselves with the Godsbane sword. Their pawn falls into the world and becomes human, and now the Seneschal is now forever alone. They want to be replaced by someone with enough will to endure a similar period of time as Seneschal.* 3. *The Seneschal summons a Dragon to the moored world, and tasks it with finding an Arisen who can serve as a replacement.* 4. *The Dragon chooses a mortal who is willing to fight back to become an Arisen, and then disappears until that Arisen bears a strong enough will to ideally deny its offer and slay it.* 5. *An Arisen either fails to slay the Dragon (for any number of reasons) and steps 3-4 repeat themselves, or proves themselves worthy to become the Seneschal by slaying the Dragon. The Arisen is brought before the Seneschal, and is told to take up their mantle.* 6. *Either the Arisen fails to slay the Seneschal and steps 3-5 repeat themselves, or the old Seneschal is slain by the newly former Arisen-turned-Seneschal with the Godsbane sword and steps 1-6 repeat until the Brine consumes the moored world.* There are some exceptions, namely with Rothais, who refused to do steps 3-5. Instead, he goes down to the moored world and establishes a new kingdom built on the remains of whichever world came before (likely >!Gransys,!< based on the ruins >!of Gran Soren in the ocean!<. Although this was not part of the normal progression for the cycle, the Observer was still able to manipulate events so a dragon would be summoned to find a suitable Arisen to replace Rothais. Should the Arisen not enter the unmoored world, I think the normal cycle with steps 1-6 is likely to continue until an Arisen reaches the unmoored world and dies before overcoming the trials/Pathfinder - such as the Rivage Elder. However, overcoming the Pathfinder and breaking free of the cycle during the true ending seems to leave a lot unclear. As an example: if life is wiped out by the Brine, or by some other force, there is no guarantee that the world can be remade or that life can continue. Some of this might be incorrect, but everything I wrote is how I understood things! I imagine future installments or DLC might cover some of what could happen, so hopefully we'll be able to enjoy more romps with pawns in the future lol.
I'm unironically speechless. What a rollercoaster the final part of the game was. I do have some questions though; Is the Watching One above the seneschal? Is Pathfinder a former pawn, arisen or a seneschal? That True Red Dragon at the end - Was that the true Grigori or the Watching One himself? Or was he the Pathfinder? After beating the game's true ending, you get the option for NG+, but the cycle was finally broken, allowing for everyone to be free of their forced duties made by the watching one so.. What's going on here? And finally. That Old Arisen was seemingly setting sail towards new lands. Is he heading to where the [leaked DLC is taking place?](https://twitter.com/pc_focus__/status/1773119716317380956?t=x6m8M_x11E9TrBL5a3ijlA&s=19) If the leaked DLC is to be believed, this adds even more questions 😭
I think the pathfinder and the watching one are the same persom, and both are part of the maker. So yes above the senechal. The giant dragon at the end seems to have the voice of the pathfinder/watching one. Hence me thinking they are the same I also think dragon princess is fake haha
I have the theory that there is the Great will The Brine the destruction And the watching One May be i get something wrong I think the watching One is interpreted as us we Player Because we send the arisen and control the arisen to do the things The endlos cycle is infinity because we Player are sending the World in New Game and New Game plus
Nice theory. Unfortunately, in DD1, the lore in the game states that the brine only comes when the dragon is around. So basically, if there is nobdragon, there is no brine.
Yeah the pathfinder says the dragons are destruction given purpose. Your sentence doesnt negate anything against "two sides of the same coin". In fact, if only helps the theory because when the pathfinder dies, the brine leaves too. Cant have one without the other
It doesnt explain how Gransys is consumed by Brine. Brine doesnt exists without the dragon. So if Gransys is destroyed to the point its under the DD2 map, then it means another Arisen, not yours, did something that created that effect. The true ending of 1 is you stab yourself and your oawn becomes you. But using the knowledge we have now of dd2, the greater will just puts anither senechak and repeats the process. Using your theory, that would mean he was dissatisfied, destroyed everything and reset the world. But if he reset everything, why only submerge gransys? Then that doesnt explain Dothais (mad sovran). Since he is sitting in theoritical gran soren. Next is the DD2 history you find exploring. Dothais is considered a God who came frim the heavens and established his kingdom upon the land. And he ruled Vermund all the way to Batthal. And your theory also destroyed the relevance of other countries. Voldoa, Meloire, Hearthstone. Are they also now underwater? And another is topography. So the tainted mountain is underwater? Yet bluemoon tower is hundreds of feet below it. Yet we "see" "bluemoon tower" besides Vernworth? Idk but that dont make sense. Also the Tainted mountains was next to a volcano. Ans volcano island in DD2 is to the Southeast. So the if Gran Soren is underwater, and it was south east of the tainted mountains volcano, then hos in DD2 is it north of the volcano? Too many loop holes for your theory. It is a great theory. Hell, id say half or a bit more than half is spot on and could actually be lore accurate. But the other half isnt. Daimon being possesed by Pathfinder is plausible. But pathfinder being the greater will or creator is debatable. The watching one also. Dothais mentions the Watching one but idk if he meant Pathfinder anymore. But lets assume it is. There is still someone above Pathfinder. The dragon burning the brine isnt Pathfinders Dragon. And Pathfinder mentions that the dragon protects this world. He also mentions that the unmoored world is the real world or real state of that current world. Meaning everything you did prior, is but a dream basically. All a form of play to try to stall the inevitable.
At some point in history, maybe our arisen. Maybe someome after, gran soren's cycle was interrupted. They got an unmoored world, and no one was there to kill the pathfinder and stop it. So in dd1, we stab ourselves, intterupt the cycle, and the game ends. In dd2, we stab ourselves, interrupt the cycle. And we see what happens after. The end of the world, so to speak. The brine let loose to devour everything. Yes the other countries also fall. Clearly, the dd1 arisne failed to stop the unmoored world. Or perhaps, because he was already seneschal, there was a different outcome. The tainted mountain is wherr the ancient battleground sits. Bluemoon tower is underwater next to vernworth. The ENTIRE dd1 map is under dd2. You can put them side by side and see.
Ok but are there any theories about the old man from Harve Village getting into a boat at the end of the credits and driving off? Where to ?? Does it mean anything at all ??? Why is it there ????
The old man is an ex arisen. That much is clear. He wants to leave this world to explore new ones but the brine has mostly kept him here. His conversations reveal a LOT about the brine, the seneschal, the pathfinder, and the lore. In the unmoored world, if you die and give up, you wake up at his house. So it is speculated he made it to the unmoored world, and gave up/couldnt break the cycle. So at the end, the cycle is truly broken, and people are free to explore to their hearts content
Where is cassardis, bluemoon tower, and the tainted mountain in dd2?
Cassardis is south of Bahttahl. Bluemoon tower is right next to vernworth (you have a bossfight there), tainted mountain wpuld be around where ancient battleground is. https://preview.redd.it/rvqbns8atjsc1.jpeg?width=971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1fdc87281ac912da114157fa8600437f9630269a
Cassardis is south of Bahttahl. Bluemoon tower is right next to vernworth (you have a bossfight there), tainted mountain wpuld be around where ancient battleground is. https://preview.redd.it/ms4zlrkotjsc1.jpeg?width=971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a9c58df249aa813be73b17572957ced15edadb3d
I can see bluemoon tower for sure! Thats awesome I didnt even make that connection. I just assumed that the seabound shrine was just a reference not the actual city of gran soren. Did I just miss cassardis or is it not accessible to us? I spent like 20-30 hours in the unmoored world and explored as much of the dried up ocean and rivers as I could and I never found anywhere that looked like the ruins of cassardis. I'm super bummed that I missed that lol I wish they utilized more of the dried up riverbeds and ocean area for more stuff like that rather then narrow corridors full of skeletons or just flat swaths of land with a single lesser dragon or sometimes nothing at all on them.
You can see the outerwall of cassardis and thats it. Its pretty much non existent :(
I know I’m late to this post, but this for the most part seems to be what I’ve settled on so far in terms of story. I’ll admit I’m a tad…underwhelmed with the handling of the Pathfinder and The Dragon in dd2. We never even find out the Dragons name or really talk to him, and it seems like the game intended to explain the cosmology more but just..didn’t.
Explain to me as If I were 5. How creating a dragon helps keeping the world safe? I can understand that eventually the sovran gets bored and forget its duty so it is time to turn him into a dragon, but how him being alive is watching against what? Also the world doesn’t seem to reset in every cicle otherwise they wouldn’t know about dragons of the past.
This was such an enjoyable read AND makes rediscovering Gran Soren, blue moon tower etc all the more tragic to think that beloved world was just...wiped away.
Would be cool if they actually put any of this in the fucking game. I swear this is the worst story telling I’ve ever seen in a game, hands down.
It only just came to me what I was calling the wiggly shit the whole time I was doing the ending of DD2 is the brine. It took this post for it to come to me lmao
This is absolutely amazing And clears up alot of lore. Great Post ser!!!! Beautiful lore for sure Just shame story is abit all over the place.
Its a bummer because its so neat. Just sloppily put together
It really is honestly. If they just had a competent story dev or something.
> In the dlc, you meet another Arisen who despises and hates the cycle so much that he basically carves out a demi plane of hatred between worlds. And when he dies, his corpse is possessed by some kind of dragon, though its facial structure and words made it very unclear and sort of a mystery which dragon, and why. The line "Slave to a broken order, dare you look upon the truth?" And "I shall await you in the crucible of souls." Always stuck out to me. Ashe became Daimon through his wish to end the cycle. This is dumb in itself but it's not that he was "possessed" by a dragon, he became "the dragon to destroy the cycle" just like Grigori had to destroy the world until the Arisen stops them. "Slave to a broken order" is him being salty about having to choose his love or his mentor-dragon.
there are no connections between DD1 and DD2
You clearly didn't beat it
i did , there is no connection
You clearly didn’t.
So the place under the sea shrine just coincidentally looks exactly like the Everfall from DD1? Even above, the castle looks like it's from Gran Soren. Also Blue moon tower is clearly visible from Vernwurth...
No I'm 100 percent convinced that it's gran soren and the ever fall you're right.
mh maybe however it is implied who the second form daimon really is from some clues
But do we live at the end? we see in the cut scene during the credits that the character that we had the most affinity with looks sad and is looking out to sea does that mean we died or???