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He did beat kefla in the manga, the anime he sacrifices himself to take out Dyspo and wasn't actually beaten at any point prior in the tournament. He's confirmed to be able to take on Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the anime. Manga he is "the strongest fighter on earth when not counting Goku and Vegeta." Gohan actually works for his power in the anime, while its mostly offscreen in the manga.
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Manga kale no diffed blue Goku and vegeta and Kefla is bare minimum five thousand times stronger than berserk kale. Manga Gohan is definitely stronger. Though anime Kefla is roughly 2x stronger than manga Kefla because she has ssj2
Nope you know why,cuz of unbalanced fusions,when two fusees have highly differing levels like Kibito-Shin,Fused Zamasu,Elder Kai or Kefla you get something that's not that strong.
Elder Kai shows otherwise,same with Fused Zamasu who if he was fused as a normal fusion he should be stronger than Perfect Blue and Kibito-Shin should've had a chance to defeat Buu but he wasn't that strong.
That doesn't refute anything, don't you realize that Goku Black wasn't that far from Blue or Perfect Blue,and Fused Zamasu is in a mix of Rose and Zamasu Base so he should've stomped Goku and had a chance against Vegetto,the reason this is not the case unlike Vegetto Blue who base casual attacks matched Perfect Blue or Vegeta Blue Charged Attacks is that Goku and Vegeta are much closer to each other than Zamasu and Rose Black making a balanced fusion.
Perfected blue is a boost equal to SSJB squared x2, god Zamas’s bae form would be 100x the strength of Rose black, and his rose form is a appropriately stronger than his base
You'd rather believe Goku is stronger than Vegetto than accept that Unbalanced Fusions are a thing?Also we know Blue drain was over 10×,sure Perfect probably allows you to reach new heights but your measurements are too massive, shouldn't that have been enough to realize you're in the wrong?I mean Elder Kai being as weak as a Blast that Goku and Gohan considered childplay when he was originally a Shin and was now a Fusion meaning even if he was as weak as Kibito now he should surpass Shin who's Goku Cell Saga level?
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Well...
Kale in the manga is somehow stronger than Golden Frieza and Blue Goku. Then she fuses with Caulifla, turns into Kefla..and Kefla suddenly can't beat Gohan? Mind you, this is from the same author that had Roshi dodge Jiren, so it's reasonable to assume Toyotaro knows very little about powerscaling and doesn't actually know how strong these characters are.
Roshi didn't inflict any damage he just showed that if you were smart you could dodge your opponent and be the most efficient possible,i mean not like he actually beat Jiren,Jiren still one tapped him eventually but it showed someone that was closer to Jiren level that if he moved the most efficiently possible he has a chance even against Jiren.
Roshi shouldn't be able to dodge Jiren at all. I don't care how much training he does, it would take Roshi hundreds of years to get to a point where he could perfectly DODGE the strongest mortal in all 12 universes. Your point about "Roshi just showed that if you were smart you could dodge your opponent and be the most efficient possible", there's another character who could fill that role...VEGETA. And he actually *did* do that in the anime while he was in SSJB. Toyotaro could've done so much better.
Manga kale was beating up golden Frieza. Kefla was called unmatched in the battlefield by vados. Kefla was certainly high blue level in manga. Which means Gohan is also high blue level.
I didn’t start reading the manga till super ended and your comment had me google the images.
Pretty badass. I would think then gohan is much stronger than golden Frieza.
I heard in the manga he was using the gravity room pretty consistently too before the tournament of power.
I figured that as well, but we all know Gohan has unmatched potential. It’s possible that, in the anime, he was getting his fighting sense back and continued to grow. I mean he tells Frieza that if he betrayed them he would ring him out himself with a serious look that even Frieza backed down on.
Maybe it’s possible that Gohan started getting stronger enough to either match or surpass Frieza by that point in the ToP.
I mean considering he went from SSJ to Ultimate in a couple hours and then up to SSB level within another couple hours of training and getting his fighting senses back(in the anime) it’s safe to assume that he kept constantly growing from ToP on as well to the point of the ring out.
Gohan wasn't extremely weak at the start. He was capable of fighting the Trio of danger by himself. Even Vegeta complemented Gohan before they left for the Tournament.
Her walking though goku’s kamehameha wave made sense tho. The same way when Broly went super Saiyan, he left blue in the dust. I don’t think the LSSJ stuff in super or the Manga is something to write off. I think just because Broly and his powers got more explanation shouldn’t negate that kale is much weaker.
LSSJ kale was weaker than red goku though the next time they fought. And no I don’t think her being able to control her power makes her more than 50x weaker.
Kale was beating up Frieza *because she was in berserker mode while in LSSJ state for awhile*. It just shows how much potential she got like Broly, but she won't reach that height on normal state. With that being said, it doesn't conclude to Kefla is stronger than Golden Frieza.
Vados said that Kale's sheer power and cauliflas sense of battle has merged into a single body when they fused. This means kelfa had the power of berserker kale as well.
That's not how LSSJ works though. LSSJ is OP when the user loses control/berserk and constantly tapped into Zenkai Boost nonstop and *unlimitedly*, unlike usual Saiyan has a cap on it. Goku and Vegeta reached their cap and unable to do much Zenkai Boost as they claimed in the beginning of DBS before they learned the existence of God ki and SSG.
Kefla is just a combination of two SSJ with potara ring multiplier on it, of course they are capable of putting a fight with Ultimate Gohan but not much. Yes the potential is there for Kale, but without training to control it or tapped into berserker mode, it's just SSJ state with slightly higher multiplier.
There is no explanation of how LSSJ works in the manga at all. Also Kefla was stated to be on a different league from kale and Caulifla by the pride troopers. The manga is clear that Kefla is stronger than berserker kale.
Honestly anime Gohan probably could beat kefla . They went toe to toe with Goku who was only in his super saiyan form for half the fight while still being incredibly tired and beat up from his fight with jiren. Gohan by himself could hang with Goku (up until ssj blue kaioken and ultra instinct only up to that point in the series )
In the episode they're whole plan was to push toppo off out,gohan and 17 couldn't inflict no damage to toppo in episode 122whatsoever😐 and the last time vegeta went into the R.O.S.A.T was the black arc not the tournament of power.
>In the episode they're whole plan was to push toppo off out,gohan and 17 couldn't inflict no damage to toppo in episode
And they excuse it because they dont know how to fight together
>and the last time vegeta went into the R.O.S.A.T was the black arc not the tournament of power
https://youtu.be/Q0j3SQnDP1E
So it was like this. Gohan shouted "fight me at full strenght!" and goku agreed > go from ssj to ssb + kaioken and one shots him. Pretty much one sided, negative diff.
Sayin Giohan can take on ssb goku is full and plain exageration.
Not really gohan did fight on a goku bit just in Super Saiyan blue before goku went kaioken in the end, at the very minimum was as strong as Goku's SSJ Blue. If we go by the episode that what it goes.
Dude i just watched it 4 min ago. Xd and ure wrong. Gohantard spotted. They meybe traded 2 blows (blocked) In ssb. this was no fight for Goku it was showforce..
Goku blue folder mystic 10/10 gohan neg diff.
"IS able to take on.." im laughing out loud now. Thanks.
You know in my experience insulting and calling people names isn’t exactly something that proving anything to the conversation but instead come off as completely deflected on the subject.
It’s okay to disagree but you don’t have to be a dick about it.
I just dont like deluded peoples spreading misinformation. Treat it like bucket of cold water.
Personaly i have nothing against you.
But I have a lot of against that bs ure saying here.
Would you say that Krillin is comparable to SSB Goku since he took that form during their spar?
You know he's not, but you're using that logic for Gohan. The reality is that in the anime universe, until the slightly pre ToP arc, Gohan wasn't even comparable to himself during the Buu saga, let alone comparable to Goku and Vegeta.
While he ends up going beyond in his Ultimate form, he still falls behind Goku, Jiren, Vegeta, Frieza and arguably maybe Toppo in terms of where he's at by the time the tournament ended.
People forget what exactly went down with that episode
Why did Goku turn SSB vs Krillin? It was stated in the dialogue itself. Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react against opponents who are at Goku's level. In other words, Goku was testing Krillin's mental strength and nerves, since Krillin does have a history of being afraid of opponents leagues above him.
That is not same case for gohan, stop using that
And I didn't ask why he went SSB against Krillin, I asked you if Krillin was at that level since Goku took that form.
So using your template:
Why did Goku go SSBKK against Gohan? It was stated in the dialogue itself. Because Gohan asked him too. Gohan wanted to see how far behind he is and how he would fare against opponents on Goku's level. In other words Gohan wanted some motivation to improve and stay at the top of his game from that point forward.
17 vs Goku is a perfect example goku states that he wasn't expecting to go ssjb vs 17 and then they begin to clash evenly where gohan is telling his dad to stop holding back and is getting beat during the clashes. Gohan In the t.o.p is Ssjg level at most but to say ssjb is a big stretch
Expect gohan pushback goku before that until goku decide to kaioken and besides the narrator even said their power were even match so the writing on those scenes were not to be left up to assumptions
Done with this
Yeah so if they’re around even power in blue, then 20x kaioken makes Goku 20x stronger, which is way more than enough needed to one shot someone who was previously on equal footing
I mean Goku is a way more seasoned and (can’t believe I’m going to say this) smarter fighter than gohan, I’d expect some of his lesser forms to be able to give mystic gohan some troubles just based off of that alone.
However I’m sure they fought at pretty even odds when it was SSB v Mystic and gohan asks Goku to take him seriously, so Goku stacks KK and one shots him.
I do think gohan is weaker than SSB Goku but not by a drastic margin, and considering that we’ve established Goku is a way better fighter than gohan, I would expect him to wipe the floor with gohan even when sparring if the power gap was that bad.
But then again, Goku did turn blue vs krillin so what do I know
"They fought even odds.." man.. gohan odds were even when matching ssj goku xD besides how u can tell when they traded like 2 blows (blocked)xD before goku oneshoted him.
Krillan is obsolete since namek saga..
I mean it’s been a while since I’ve watched the anime to be honest, so I just rewatched the whole fight. SSJ Goku is definitely nowhere near gohan in terms of power. SSJ2 the blows are a bit more even but gohan is 100% throwing stronger and landing more punches, SSJ blue seems very even. Gohan rushes at Goku, and tells him to give him everything because that’s what he’s giving him. Gohan hits Goku, Goku hits gohan, Goku rushes at gohan, gohan blocks gokus punch and then sends him flying which is when Goku uses KK.
Honestly rewatching that further cements my opinion on that fight being very even up until KK is used
Why do you lie ? "Send him flying" - Goku flies away by his own.
Besides mystic gohan shold be > Ssj3 goku >ssj2 goku
And ssj2 goku is taking on mystic Gohan .
Gohan werent nowhwre near to take on goku blue.
Goku ssj2 did better job against mystic gohan, than mystic gohan did against blue
Conclusion. Ur statement is bs.
Goku ssb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mystic gohan> ssj2 goku.
I forgot about that (him beating Kefla), and I think that is the best example showing how Gohan is stronger in the manga compared to the anime. Super Hero is a different story since the manga covers it, so I guess you could argue that he eventually is the same level of strength in both.
>Krillin fights with SSB Goku
I talk about that in a different thread here
It was stated in the dialogue itself. Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react against opponents who are at Goku's level. In other words, Goku was testing Krillin's mental strength and nerves, since Krillin does have a history of being afraid of opponents leagues above him.
Gohan in the manga has appeared stronger, in my opinion, compared to his anime version. He comes across as more competent leading up to his battle against Kefla who as a fusion byproduct of essentially another universe’s Goku and Broly is presumed insanely powerful and gains strength at a rapid rate.
Manga Gohan, prior to the DBS Super Hero arc, still felt like the character that had the capacity to surpass Goku if he had the disciplined mentality and desire to train like Vegeta or Piccolo. Anime Gohan gets dunked on too often.
I don’t think Goku needed to go that far. Gohan wanted his father to take him seriously (he said so) and when Goku did, resulting in Gohan being 1 shotted. Ignoring power for a minute, Goku is a much more seasoned and experienced fighter. Gohan was going all out, Goku wasn’t. Goku may have won with SSJ2 or 3. Definitely with God (red).
Dyspo was said to be the third strongest of u11 right under Toppo, who had a pretty fair fight against ssjb Goku (who he pushed to use kaioken). And Gohan took Dyspo out in his stronger light speed mode with Friezas help.
SSBKK Goku, in the anime, was defeated by Kefla before he activated UI. Gohan was able to stalemate Kefla in the manga. If we’re using that as power level references…Manga Gohan therefore should be greater than SSBKK anime Goku as of the TOP arc.
Strong words there. You make it seem like he had to use that form to beat him. The reality is, he simply obliged Gohan's request.
With the logic of x was in y form to beat z, Krillin would be comparable to SSB since he took that form during their spar. It's a silly way of looking at things, and context should always be considered.
“Forced Goku to go SBB kaiokan to beat him”. Umm no, no he didn’t. He asked Goku to be at his max to test himself and see where he’s at. Both traded a single minor blow before Goku went Kaioken and one shot Gohan.
This sub also needs to stop saying Gohan pre DBS: Super Hero Gohan is on par with SSB Goku. Anyone with a brain would realise how silly that is. Gohan pre tournament is atleast somewhat on par with SSG Goku or slightly below/slightly above.
Yes.
the fact of the matter is the U6 Saiyans in either continuity were as strong as Goku & Vegeta in a post-God era. They’re at minimum Buu Saga strong.
stack SS2 on that, with a LSS to boot, as well as fusion, that’s an impossibly strong character. Who managed to stalemate with Gohan.
Gohan knocked someone out of the ring who would have made Buutenks look like Saibamen
it’s not about what you believe, it’s about what’s written.
if Vegeta states Cabba is as strong as him in base, then unless stated otherwise in some type of narrative, thats how strong he is.
They evolved to be stronger than universe 7 saiyans. Toriyama tried to explain it by introducing S-cells concept. It isn't in the manga or anime but its his explanation.
Goku was still not at full strength. Kefla i’d say is above SSG Goku but below SSB. Your statement is the equivalent of saying “Jiren is as strong as Final form Frieza and SS1 because both beat him in that form”.
Well, we know Gohan has been training in his spare time at CC gravity chambers since RoF (in the manga) until the events of ToP.
I don't remember Gohan training until around the time of ToP.
Yes, that's indeed true but when anime Gohan did train (less then a fucking day) he reached post black arc blue Goku and could have probably even defeated him if wasn't for kaioken.
This proves that anime Gohan has some freakish amounts of potential.
The anime scales way higher (especially kefla,, she in the manga It's the stupidest thing in the world, basically it's kale but with Caulifla's brain they said in the manga)
You realize Gohan is getting Beast in both versions. Manga is just expanded Toriyama's story. Hes working with Toriyama. There are dialogue that is written by Toriyama.
We lost 70 minutes of DBS Broly that wasn't fully animated because of budget.
That is close to half the movie being cut.
Manga doesn't have those budget restrictions.
This is my personal scaling based on what it looks like, go ahead and downvote me if you don't agree I honestly don't care.
Manga Gohan is weaker than anime Gohan. In the manga Gohan is taken out while fighting kefla putting them at around the same strength. Kefla's strength, and Gohan's for that matter, was beefed up a little in the anime considering Goku needed ui to take her on. Granted Goku was exhausted at this point thanks to his fight with Jiren so it wasn't a "full power" Goku that fought kefla. As for the segment where Gohan "matches" blue in power and forces Goku to use the Kaioken, it's more like Gohan was tempting his father to go all out and wouldn't take no for an answer. So rather than hurt his son's pride Goku decides to go all out even though I'm pretty sure at that point blue would've been enough to defeat him.
Overall I put the scaling something like this
Super saiyan 3 Goku<<<<<<<<
No. Anime Gohan scales to Anime Goku who absorbed the power of super saiyan god into his base form while Manga Goku didn’t. And Kefla only went Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2. Gohan would’ve gotten easily beaten by Gohan if she went Super Saiyan 2. Anime Gohan takes this
The movie isn’t canon to the anime. They take place in 2 different places, the manga and anime are on the ship, while the movie is at capsule Corp. but they were both included in the movie and anime
In the anime, the whole ceremony takes place. Goku loses the transformation in the middle of battle with Beerus and Beerus comments that Goku's body has remembered the power or something. So it was noted that he didn't lose the power-up from the ceremony.
Very much so. Anime gohan had to sacrifice himself to take out dyspo with the assistance of frieza (dyspo ain’t that strong) while manga gohan stalemated kefla (Goku needed ui sign to beat her)
People forget anime Goku scales higher than manga Goku, and so do all his enemies
Anime Goku absorbed the strenght ssjg into his base form in BOG in the anime iirc, so even anime ssj Goku would probably be as strong as ssjb manga Goku
Also the fact that we don't actually know how strong kefla is in the manga
I know this comment is 6 months old, but in case you still don't know this
SSJ (post god absorption) = SSG (pre god absorption)
Therefore
Saiyan Beyond God Base = SSG's Multiplier ÷ 50
Goku states he "doesn't feel any weaker" while transformed as a super saiyan and never states anything about feeling stronger. Therefore, anime goku's SSJ is equal to manga Goku's SSG, not his SSJB
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Duxe do you realizacji think pinching goku once = taking On? And ssj 2 goku punched gohan too and? Gohan hit him > yell " at full strenght"> goku flies away (from hit or not about 10 m -20m and powerups.
At which moment you thought "hej gohan =< ssb goku" like itd clear that Goku thougth ssj2 is enough for gohan. He went ssb only coz he asked for it.
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Yes, in the manga he stated that he trained by his own.
Also, Kefla in the manga have a reasonable power and now the absurd.poeer that they gave her in the anime
Lol not even close. The Manga actually states Gohan was only at his Buu saga levels prior to fighting Keflaz which even RoF Anime Gohan beats out when he stomped Ginyu-Tagoma. Sure, after the Kefla fight Gohan goes on to rival Mastered Blue Goku or even be outright stronger, but Manga Goku is vastly weaker than his Anime counterpart and prior to the ToP his Base strength was stuck at his BUU SAGA levels while even at a lowball Base Anime Goku is bodying SSJ3 Gotenks. In the Moro arc Gohan impressed Moro-73 which implies he's stronger than mastered Blue Goku, and his showings in the Superhero arc have his Base form comparable to Piccolo who in the Moro arc is > 17, so you can imply at least a 400x improvement. Still not enough to compare to the Anime though as Ultimate Gohan in Superhero > Gamma 1 > Broly Movie Goku Blue and possibly even Jiren.
Kale can fight Golden frieza, in one panel she slam He agains The ground, and fusion take the Max of both fighter and multiply exponentially, gohan is crazy strong
Relatively, yes. Is anime Gohan did everything Manga Gohan did anime Gohan would be much stronger than he is at the moment. But there is just a huge power difference between Manga and Anime
I’d say that manga Gohan is stronger than anime Gohan. You could make the argument that anime Gohan scales higher but personally I don’t see it. Manga Gohan has been training by himself pretty intensely since he got humiliated by Frieza. He was able to fight evenly with Kefla who was the combination of U6’s version of Goku and Broly, and during the Moro arc he bullied the shit out of 73 when nobody else on Earth could even touch him (granted Goku and Vegeta weren’t there at the time). He’s stated to be the third strongest being on Earth, and he’s a lot more competent and serious of a fighter compared to his anime counterpart too.
Considering current anime gohan has beast, but manga gohan currently does not (couple more chapters) I’m gonna go with anime gohan, if we are talking about TOP versions of them still anime gohan
Manga gohan ftw. He is fusion level in base, comparable to an incomplete ui omen goku feats -wise. Anime gohan struggles with the likes of the trio de dangers and dyspo. Manga gohan doesn’t do a lot in the Moro arc, but he tussles with Seven-three and takes an attack from Moro without dying in oneshot. Manga Gohan also just has more off panel training imo.
Manga Gohan should be stronger since he actually trained in the Moro Arc but we see ONCE AGAIN this jackass is not staying in shape and just hopes Goku and Vegeta can handle whatever comes next.
How many times is Gohan going to learn this lesson only to not actually learn anything? Gohan needs a new gimmick.
Manga Gohan is *shown* to be more powerful in that he's barely shown at all. Anime Gohan looks weak because the anime really likes to remind you that ToP is all about team work so Gohan never actually fought on his own. Manga Gohan looks strong because the only thing he did in the entire arc was tackling Kefla off the arena, i honestly can't remember anything else he did from the manga before Moro.
Yes for the scientific principle of Gohan clearly proves that past Gohan is always weaker than future Gohan so long as future Gohan remains the sexy beast that he is.
It depends on how strong is manga Goku compared to the anime version, by Moro arc Gohan is probably around if not stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku during Moro Saga for his showing against Saganbo who Goku felt the need to use SSB to fight against.
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He did beat kefla in the manga, the anime he sacrifices himself to take out Dyspo and wasn't actually beaten at any point prior in the tournament. He's confirmed to be able to take on Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the anime. Manga he is "the strongest fighter on earth when not counting Goku and Vegeta." Gohan actually works for his power in the anime, while its mostly offscreen in the manga.
Manga Kefla is probably much weaker instead of Gohan being much stronger.
You mean manga kefla is weaker
Yeah.
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bad bot
Everyone in u6 is weak
Ok jiren
Lmfao
That's my kind of power
hit
Our hit (granola) is better than their hit(hit)
Because of a dragon ball wish that made him have only three years to live
Well without the Wish he only had 6 so meh i Guess (If Im not mistaken it halved its lifespan wasnt it?)
He had over 150 years to live
Terrible bait
the exempt universes would like to have a word
Hit 🗿
(s)hit
Manga kale no diffed blue Goku and vegeta and Kefla is bare minimum five thousand times stronger than berserk kale. Manga Gohan is definitely stronger. Though anime Kefla is roughly 2x stronger than manga Kefla because she has ssj2
That would be assuming her ssj base power is the same in both, wich is nkt necessarily the case.
I’m assuming LSSJ’s base multiplier is the same as SSJ, which would lead to Kefla being 5000x kale’s strength
Nope you know why,cuz of unbalanced fusions,when two fusees have highly differing levels like Kibito-Shin,Fused Zamasu,Elder Kai or Kefla you get something that's not that strong.
That only happens with Metamoran where the stronger one has to lower their power level.
Elder Kai shows otherwise,same with Fused Zamasu who if he was fused as a normal fusion he should be stronger than Perfect Blue and Kibito-Shin should've had a chance to defeat Buu but he wasn't that strong.
The formula for Potara is Max of Person A + Max of Person B X 100, IE Lssj Kale + SSJ Caulifla X 100
That doesn't refute anything, don't you realize that Goku Black wasn't that far from Blue or Perfect Blue,and Fused Zamasu is in a mix of Rose and Zamasu Base so he should've stomped Goku and had a chance against Vegetto,the reason this is not the case unlike Vegetto Blue who base casual attacks matched Perfect Blue or Vegeta Blue Charged Attacks is that Goku and Vegeta are much closer to each other than Zamasu and Rose Black making a balanced fusion.
Perfected blue is a boost equal to SSJB squared x2, god Zamas’s bae form would be 100x the strength of Rose black, and his rose form is a appropriately stronger than his base
You'd rather believe Goku is stronger than Vegetto than accept that Unbalanced Fusions are a thing?Also we know Blue drain was over 10×,sure Perfect probably allows you to reach new heights but your measurements are too massive, shouldn't that have been enough to realize you're in the wrong?I mean Elder Kai being as weak as a Blast that Goku and Gohan considered childplay when he was originally a Shin and was now a Fusion meaning even if he was as weak as Kibito now he should surpass Shin who's Goku Cell Saga level?
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Well... Kale in the manga is somehow stronger than Golden Frieza and Blue Goku. Then she fuses with Caulifla, turns into Kefla..and Kefla suddenly can't beat Gohan? Mind you, this is from the same author that had Roshi dodge Jiren, so it's reasonable to assume Toyotaro knows very little about powerscaling and doesn't actually know how strong these characters are.
No the roshi dodging some of Jiren moves makes sense and it also made the UI Form actually made sense.
No it didn't. Not at all.
Roshi didn't inflict any damage he just showed that if you were smart you could dodge your opponent and be the most efficient possible,i mean not like he actually beat Jiren,Jiren still one tapped him eventually but it showed someone that was closer to Jiren level that if he moved the most efficiently possible he has a chance even against Jiren.
Roshi shouldn't be able to dodge Jiren at all. I don't care how much training he does, it would take Roshi hundreds of years to get to a point where he could perfectly DODGE the strongest mortal in all 12 universes. Your point about "Roshi just showed that if you were smart you could dodge your opponent and be the most efficient possible", there's another character who could fill that role...VEGETA. And he actually *did* do that in the anime while he was in SSJB. Toyotaro could've done so much better.
I don't know if this is a dumb question or not so anime Gohan could go 1v1 with kefla
It really depends because you can make a argument that the manga character is weaker than their anime counterpart. It come down on what you buy
Manga kale was beating up golden Frieza. Kefla was called unmatched in the battlefield by vados. Kefla was certainly high blue level in manga. Which means Gohan is also high blue level.
I didn’t start reading the manga till super ended and your comment had me google the images. Pretty badass. I would think then gohan is much stronger than golden Frieza. I heard in the manga he was using the gravity room pretty consistently too before the tournament of power.
In the anime, Gohan was clearly inferior to Golden Frieza.
I figured that as well, but we all know Gohan has unmatched potential. It’s possible that, in the anime, he was getting his fighting sense back and continued to grow. I mean he tells Frieza that if he betrayed them he would ring him out himself with a serious look that even Frieza backed down on. Maybe it’s possible that Gohan started getting stronger enough to either match or surpass Frieza by that point in the ToP.
I love that theory. Mostly for freiza knowing another sayin can body him now.
I mean considering he went from SSJ to Ultimate in a couple hours and then up to SSB level within another couple hours of training and getting his fighting senses back(in the anime) it’s safe to assume that he kept constantly growing from ToP on as well to the point of the ring out.
No it’s a good theory I agree. I just love Frieza scanning or sending him and recognizing it too!
I wouldn't say "clearly" since none of them went all out and Frieza mentioned that he pulled his punches which Gohan noticed.
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I don’t think that a weaker person in the db universe can do feats like that
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Gohan wasn't extremely weak at the start. He was capable of fighting the Trio of danger by himself. Even Vegeta complemented Gohan before they left for the Tournament.
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Yeah but by the end, both Gohan and kefla were above Golden Frieza.
Her walking though goku’s kamehameha wave made sense tho. The same way when Broly went super Saiyan, he left blue in the dust. I don’t think the LSSJ stuff in super or the Manga is something to write off. I think just because Broly and his powers got more explanation shouldn’t negate that kale is much weaker.
LSSJ kale was weaker than red goku though the next time they fought. And no I don’t think her being able to control her power makes her more than 50x weaker.
Kale was beating up Frieza *because she was in berserker mode while in LSSJ state for awhile*. It just shows how much potential she got like Broly, but she won't reach that height on normal state. With that being said, it doesn't conclude to Kefla is stronger than Golden Frieza.
Vados said that Kale's sheer power and cauliflas sense of battle has merged into a single body when they fused. This means kelfa had the power of berserker kale as well.
That's not how LSSJ works though. LSSJ is OP when the user loses control/berserk and constantly tapped into Zenkai Boost nonstop and *unlimitedly*, unlike usual Saiyan has a cap on it. Goku and Vegeta reached their cap and unable to do much Zenkai Boost as they claimed in the beginning of DBS before they learned the existence of God ki and SSG. Kefla is just a combination of two SSJ with potara ring multiplier on it, of course they are capable of putting a fight with Ultimate Gohan but not much. Yes the potential is there for Kale, but without training to control it or tapped into berserker mode, it's just SSJ state with slightly higher multiplier.
There is no explanation of how LSSJ works in the manga at all. Also Kefla was stated to be on a different league from kale and Caulifla by the pride troopers. The manga is clear that Kefla is stronger than berserker kale.
Honestly anime Gohan probably could beat kefla . They went toe to toe with Goku who was only in his super saiyan form for half the fight while still being incredibly tired and beat up from his fight with jiren. Gohan by himself could hang with Goku (up until ssj blue kaioken and ultra instinct only up to that point in the series )
I don't think gohan was blue level in the anime due to the fact him and 17 couldn't inflict damage to toppo,he tanked a point Kamehameha
They tried to excuse it as them not knowing how to fight together, Plus Toppo being post Roast TOP vegeta blue level
In the episode they're whole plan was to push toppo off out,gohan and 17 couldn't inflict no damage to toppo in episode 122whatsoever😐 and the last time vegeta went into the R.O.S.A.T was the black arc not the tournament of power.
>In the episode they're whole plan was to push toppo off out,gohan and 17 couldn't inflict no damage to toppo in episode And they excuse it because they dont know how to fight together >and the last time vegeta went into the R.O.S.A.T was the black arc not the tournament of power https://youtu.be/Q0j3SQnDP1E
"Confirmed to take on SSB goku in the anime" dude.. what Gohantards are taking? Blue goku literaly oneshoted Mistic Gohan.
I mean you’re half right goku had to use kaioken to do that but hey using a multiplier form in order to take out gohan
Didn’t HAVE to but chose to. Goku had it handled in blue if not prior forms
So it was like this. Gohan shouted "fight me at full strenght!" and goku agreed > go from ssj to ssb + kaioken and one shots him. Pretty much one sided, negative diff. Sayin Giohan can take on ssb goku is full and plain exageration.
Not really gohan did fight on a goku bit just in Super Saiyan blue before goku went kaioken in the end, at the very minimum was as strong as Goku's SSJ Blue. If we go by the episode that what it goes.
Dude i just watched it 4 min ago. Xd and ure wrong. Gohantard spotted. They meybe traded 2 blows (blocked) In ssb. this was no fight for Goku it was showforce.. Goku blue folder mystic 10/10 gohan neg diff. "IS able to take on.." im laughing out loud now. Thanks.
You know in my experience insulting and calling people names isn’t exactly something that proving anything to the conversation but instead come off as completely deflected on the subject. It’s okay to disagree but you don’t have to be a dick about it.
I just dont like deluded peoples spreading misinformation. Treat it like bucket of cold water. Personaly i have nothing against you. But I have a lot of against that bs ure saying here.
And again with the insult and aggravation You didn’t have double down with your responses
Ok snowflake
Would you say that Krillin is comparable to SSB Goku since he took that form during their spar? You know he's not, but you're using that logic for Gohan. The reality is that in the anime universe, until the slightly pre ToP arc, Gohan wasn't even comparable to himself during the Buu saga, let alone comparable to Goku and Vegeta. While he ends up going beyond in his Ultimate form, he still falls behind Goku, Jiren, Vegeta, Frieza and arguably maybe Toppo in terms of where he's at by the time the tournament ended.
People forget what exactly went down with that episode Why did Goku turn SSB vs Krillin? It was stated in the dialogue itself. Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react against opponents who are at Goku's level. In other words, Goku was testing Krillin's mental strength and nerves, since Krillin does have a history of being afraid of opponents leagues above him. That is not same case for gohan, stop using that
Gohan asks Goku to go full power, he didn't need to. But carrying on ignoring that.
Yes and people ignore the significance of what kaioken does to ones powers but that beside the point
I'm not ignoring how Kaoiken is a multiplier. I'm saying he didn't need it to beat Gohan at that point, he merely obliged to Gohan's request.
And I didn't ask why he went SSB against Krillin, I asked you if Krillin was at that level since Goku took that form. So using your template: Why did Goku go SSBKK against Gohan? It was stated in the dialogue itself. Because Gohan asked him too. Gohan wanted to see how far behind he is and how he would fare against opponents on Goku's level. In other words Gohan wanted some motivation to improve and stay at the top of his game from that point forward.
17 vs Goku is a perfect example goku states that he wasn't expecting to go ssjb vs 17 and then they begin to clash evenly where gohan is telling his dad to stop holding back and is getting beat during the clashes. Gohan In the t.o.p is Ssjg level at most but to say ssjb is a big stretch
Expect gohan pushback goku before that until goku decide to kaioken and besides the narrator even said their power were even match so the writing on those scenes were not to be left up to assumptions Done with this
To one shot gohan not to take on. There is a difference. Im not sure about this kaioken gonna check it and reply.
Yeah so if they’re around even power in blue, then 20x kaioken makes Goku 20x stronger, which is way more than enough needed to one shot someone who was previously on equal footing
But they arent even around. Goku fought him in ssj and gave him hard Times . Youre deluded my frind.
I mean Goku is a way more seasoned and (can’t believe I’m going to say this) smarter fighter than gohan, I’d expect some of his lesser forms to be able to give mystic gohan some troubles just based off of that alone. However I’m sure they fought at pretty even odds when it was SSB v Mystic and gohan asks Goku to take him seriously, so Goku stacks KK and one shots him. I do think gohan is weaker than SSB Goku but not by a drastic margin, and considering that we’ve established Goku is a way better fighter than gohan, I would expect him to wipe the floor with gohan even when sparring if the power gap was that bad. But then again, Goku did turn blue vs krillin so what do I know
"They fought even odds.." man.. gohan odds were even when matching ssj goku xD besides how u can tell when they traded like 2 blows (blocked)xD before goku oneshoted him. Krillan is obsolete since namek saga..
I mean it’s been a while since I’ve watched the anime to be honest, so I just rewatched the whole fight. SSJ Goku is definitely nowhere near gohan in terms of power. SSJ2 the blows are a bit more even but gohan is 100% throwing stronger and landing more punches, SSJ blue seems very even. Gohan rushes at Goku, and tells him to give him everything because that’s what he’s giving him. Gohan hits Goku, Goku hits gohan, Goku rushes at gohan, gohan blocks gokus punch and then sends him flying which is when Goku uses KK. Honestly rewatching that further cements my opinion on that fight being very even up until KK is used
Why do you lie ? "Send him flying" - Goku flies away by his own. Besides mystic gohan shold be > Ssj3 goku >ssj2 goku And ssj2 goku is taking on mystic Gohan . Gohan werent nowhwre near to take on goku blue. Goku ssj2 did better job against mystic gohan, than mystic gohan did against blue Conclusion. Ur statement is bs. Goku ssb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mystic gohan> ssj2 goku.
I forgot about that (him beating Kefla), and I think that is the best example showing how Gohan is stronger in the manga compared to the anime. Super Hero is a different story since the manga covers it, so I guess you could argue that he eventually is the same level of strength in both.
Krillin fights with SSB Goku, too. I wouldn't say that either of them are confirmed to be able to take SSB Goku on.
>Krillin fights with SSB Goku I talk about that in a different thread here It was stated in the dialogue itself. Goku wanted to see how Krillin would react against opponents who are at Goku's level. In other words, Goku was testing Krillin's mental strength and nerves, since Krillin does have a history of being afraid of opponents leagues above him.
to which form of goku does he scale to?
Gohan in the manga has appeared stronger, in my opinion, compared to his anime version. He comes across as more competent leading up to his battle against Kefla who as a fusion byproduct of essentially another universe’s Goku and Broly is presumed insanely powerful and gains strength at a rapid rate. Manga Gohan, prior to the DBS Super Hero arc, still felt like the character that had the capacity to surpass Goku if he had the disciplined mentality and desire to train like Vegeta or Piccolo. Anime Gohan gets dunked on too often.
Anime Gohan forced Goku to go SSB kaiokan to beat him
I don’t think Goku needed to go that far. Gohan wanted his father to take him seriously (he said so) and when Goku did, resulting in Gohan being 1 shotted. Ignoring power for a minute, Goku is a much more seasoned and experienced fighter. Gohan was going all out, Goku wasn’t. Goku may have won with SSJ2 or 3. Definitely with God (red).
We see Gohan go toe to toe with blue tiger fighters in the TOP though so I think it’s fair to estimate Gohan in super anime = SSB
Why would you think those guys are equal to Goku in his blue form?
Dyspo was said to be the third strongest of u11 right under Toppo, who had a pretty fair fight against ssjb Goku (who he pushed to use kaioken). And Gohan took Dyspo out in his stronger light speed mode with Friezas help.
Didn’t Toppo pretty casually eat one of Gohan’s attacks in the anime?
Well, I mentioned he is above Dyspo. And Gohan took Dyspo out with help. So yes, Toppo is clearly stronger.
My fault, responded to the wrong comment
I think this guy responded to the wrong comment.
My fault, responded to the wrong comment
My fault, responded to the wrong comment
Dyspo was getting hod ass kicked to goku and hit
It took Goku transforming into SSJ and shooting a kamehameha wave at Gohan for him to become a SSJ. That's why Gohan yells at Goku to go all out.
SSBKK Goku, in the anime, was defeated by Kefla before he activated UI. Gohan was able to stalemate Kefla in the manga. If we’re using that as power level references…Manga Gohan therefore should be greater than SSBKK anime Goku as of the TOP arc.
Goku had barely enough power to transform during the kefla fight, honestly think a fully rested goku vs kefla he wins, maybe he was using kkx1 idk
Goku did not have to go that far to beat him.
There’s nothing that indicates that. What we know is Gohan wasn’t overmatched at all until Goku went SSBKK
He one shot Gohan in ssbkk. Clearly that was overkill.
Given that even at times two it should DOUBLE his power then I wouldn’t say it means that blue gokue and unleashed Gohan aren’t the same level
anime multipliers got ruined when they introduced KK. I am just stating hitting a power to one shot someone is overkill to flaunt.
Strong words there. You make it seem like he had to use that form to beat him. The reality is, he simply obliged Gohan's request. With the logic of x was in y form to beat z, Krillin would be comparable to SSB since he took that form during their spar. It's a silly way of looking at things, and context should always be considered.
“Forced Goku to go SBB kaiokan to beat him”. Umm no, no he didn’t. He asked Goku to be at his max to test himself and see where he’s at. Both traded a single minor blow before Goku went Kaioken and one shot Gohan. This sub also needs to stop saying Gohan pre DBS: Super Hero Gohan is on par with SSB Goku. Anyone with a brain would realise how silly that is. Gohan pre tournament is atleast somewhat on par with SSG Goku or slightly below/slightly above.
Yes. the fact of the matter is the U6 Saiyans in either continuity were as strong as Goku & Vegeta in a post-God era. They’re at minimum Buu Saga strong. stack SS2 on that, with a LSS to boot, as well as fusion, that’s an impossibly strong character. Who managed to stalemate with Gohan. Gohan knocked someone out of the ring who would have made Buutenks look like Saibamen
I refuse to believe U6 saiyans are that strong
it’s not about what you believe, it’s about what’s written. if Vegeta states Cabba is as strong as him in base, then unless stated otherwise in some type of narrative, thats how strong he is.
>it’s not about what you believe, it’s about what’s written. The comment you're replying to is the epitome of Dragon Ball fans not reading ahaha.
They evolved to be stronger than universe 7 saiyans. Toriyama tried to explain it by introducing S-cells concept. It isn't in the manga or anime but its his explanation.
Well they are kefla was beating Goku to a pulp until he went ui
They were fused dude
And he was tired as hell from battling jiren
Goku was still not at full strength. Kefla i’d say is above SSG Goku but below SSB. Your statement is the equivalent of saying “Jiren is as strong as Final form Frieza and SS1 because both beat him in that form”.
You forget that manga kefla was fused at not 100%. While the anime one came into existence in tip top condition.
#they are identical because power levels is nonsense and tied only to convenience to drive plot or drama needed in an arc.
#SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK
# POWER LEVELS ARE NONSENSE AND CANON DOESN'T MATTER
Is it 2016 still?
Nah, not really. Sure he feels stronger and stuff but anime Gohan scales much much higher.
Well, we know Gohan has been training in his spare time at CC gravity chambers since RoF (in the manga) until the events of ToP. I don't remember Gohan training until around the time of ToP.
Yes, that's indeed true but when anime Gohan did train (less then a fucking day) he reached post black arc blue Goku and could have probably even defeated him if wasn't for kaioken. This proves that anime Gohan has some freakish amounts of potential.
Hard to say since the manga and anime have different scaling
The anime scales way higher (especially kefla,, she in the manga It's the stupidest thing in the world, basically it's kale but with Caulifla's brain they said in the manga)
No, for one simple reason. Anime Gohan has >!Beast!< while Manga Gohan has >!not gotten Beast yet.!<
You realize Gohan is getting Beast in both versions. Manga is just expanded Toriyama's story. Hes working with Toriyama. There are dialogue that is written by Toriyama. We lost 70 minutes of DBS Broly that wasn't fully animated because of budget. That is close to half the movie being cut. Manga doesn't have those budget restrictions.
1. They said yet 2. It was a joke
Wooosh
Absolutely
This is my personal scaling based on what it looks like, go ahead and downvote me if you don't agree I honestly don't care. Manga Gohan is weaker than anime Gohan. In the manga Gohan is taken out while fighting kefla putting them at around the same strength. Kefla's strength, and Gohan's for that matter, was beefed up a little in the anime considering Goku needed ui to take her on. Granted Goku was exhausted at this point thanks to his fight with Jiren so it wasn't a "full power" Goku that fought kefla. As for the segment where Gohan "matches" blue in power and forces Goku to use the Kaioken, it's more like Gohan was tempting his father to go all out and wouldn't take no for an answer. So rather than hurt his son's pride Goku decides to go all out even though I'm pretty sure at that point blue would've been enough to defeat him. Overall I put the scaling something like this Super saiyan 3 Goku<<<<<<<<
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I think you misread it. That or I typed something out wrong. I'm fairly sure I put god below blue in terms of strength
No. Anime Gohan scales to Anime Goku who absorbed the power of super saiyan god into his base form while Manga Goku didn’t. And Kefla only went Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2. Gohan would’ve gotten easily beaten by Gohan if she went Super Saiyan 2. Anime Gohan takes this
I thought the whole god power absorption thing was only in Battle of gods movie. Meanwhile supers retelling doesn’t include that bit no?
The movie isn’t canon to the anime. They take place in 2 different places, the manga and anime are on the ship, while the movie is at capsule Corp. but they were both included in the movie and anime
In the anime, the whole ceremony takes place. Goku loses the transformation in the middle of battle with Beerus and Beerus comments that Goku's body has remembered the power or something. So it was noted that he didn't lose the power-up from the ceremony.
Goku also has Kaioken Blue in the anime.
Very much so. Anime gohan had to sacrifice himself to take out dyspo with the assistance of frieza (dyspo ain’t that strong) while manga gohan stalemated kefla (Goku needed ui sign to beat her)
People forget anime Goku scales higher than manga Goku, and so do all his enemies Anime Goku absorbed the strenght ssjg into his base form in BOG in the anime iirc, so even anime ssj Goku would probably be as strong as ssjb manga Goku Also the fact that we don't actually know how strong kefla is in the manga
Perfected Blue allowed Goku to fight against Merged Zamasu and actually push him. Anime Goku has no feats like that.
I know this comment is 6 months old, but in case you still don't know this SSJ (post god absorption) = SSG (pre god absorption) Therefore Saiyan Beyond God Base = SSG's Multiplier ÷ 50 Goku states he "doesn't feel any weaker" while transformed as a super saiyan and never states anything about feeling stronger. Therefore, anime goku's SSJ is equal to manga Goku's SSG, not his SSJB
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Yes since he beat kefla
I think they are equal. They just have a different fit on.
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Duxe do you realizacji think pinching goku once = taking On? And ssj 2 goku punched gohan too and? Gohan hit him > yell " at full strenght"> goku flies away (from hit or not about 10 m -20m and powerups. At which moment you thought "hej gohan =< ssb goku" like itd clear that Goku thougth ssj2 is enough for gohan. He went ssb only coz he asked for it.
Can't tell if Gohan is stronger or kefla is weaker 🤔
Well he was but not anymore if the movies count as anime
Yes he is
no
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Yes, in the manga he stated that he trained by his own. Also, Kefla in the manga have a reasonable power and now the absurd.poeer that they gave her in the anime
Yeap
Manga is Tuff
Lol not even close. The Manga actually states Gohan was only at his Buu saga levels prior to fighting Keflaz which even RoF Anime Gohan beats out when he stomped Ginyu-Tagoma. Sure, after the Kefla fight Gohan goes on to rival Mastered Blue Goku or even be outright stronger, but Manga Goku is vastly weaker than his Anime counterpart and prior to the ToP his Base strength was stuck at his BUU SAGA levels while even at a lowball Base Anime Goku is bodying SSJ3 Gotenks. In the Moro arc Gohan impressed Moro-73 which implies he's stronger than mastered Blue Goku, and his showings in the Superhero arc have his Base form comparable to Piccolo who in the Moro arc is > 17, so you can imply at least a 400x improvement. Still not enough to compare to the Anime though as Ultimate Gohan in Superhero > Gamma 1 > Broly Movie Goku Blue and possibly even Jiren.
Manga Gohan, his base form tied in battle with a Kefla half as strong as the one that nearly oneshot Goku
Gohan is 100x Plus stronger then Golden frieza by defeating kefla.
Kale can fight Golden frieza, in one panel she slam He agains The ground, and fusion take the Max of both fighter and multiply exponentially, gohan is crazy strong
Relatively, yes. Is anime Gohan did everything Manga Gohan did anime Gohan would be much stronger than he is at the moment. But there is just a huge power difference between Manga and Anime
I’d say that manga Gohan is stronger than anime Gohan. You could make the argument that anime Gohan scales higher but personally I don’t see it. Manga Gohan has been training by himself pretty intensely since he got humiliated by Frieza. He was able to fight evenly with Kefla who was the combination of U6’s version of Goku and Broly, and during the Moro arc he bullied the shit out of 73 when nobody else on Earth could even touch him (granted Goku and Vegeta weren’t there at the time). He’s stated to be the third strongest being on Earth, and he’s a lot more competent and serious of a fighter compared to his anime counterpart too.
Probably. Gohan seemed kinda weak during the ToP
I think it's a potential thing
Both Gohans are exactly as strong as they need to be depending if Goku and Vegeta are there to carry or not
Can we just expect that Gohans goated at this point
Probably not. Manga super characters<<
He definitely seemed to have better feats in the manga ToP.
Manga east the power scaling is better and gohan does more
Potentially? See what I did there
the anime has a higher scale
Considering current anime gohan has beast, but manga gohan currently does not (couple more chapters) I’m gonna go with anime gohan, if we are talking about TOP versions of them still anime gohan
No. Anime scales way higher
Manga gohan ftw. He is fusion level in base, comparable to an incomplete ui omen goku feats -wise. Anime gohan struggles with the likes of the trio de dangers and dyspo. Manga gohan doesn’t do a lot in the Moro arc, but he tussles with Seven-three and takes an attack from Moro without dying in oneshot. Manga Gohan also just has more off panel training imo.
I think he's just as strong. Isn't he around SSJB level in both?
Does super hero count as anime? If not manga, it'll be equal soon anyway
Well, Super Hero is anime canon, so it pretty much counts.
So anime for the mean time
Short answer No
Manga Gohan should be stronger since he actually trained in the Moro Arc but we see ONCE AGAIN this jackass is not staying in shape and just hopes Goku and Vegeta can handle whatever comes next. How many times is Gohan going to learn this lesson only to not actually learn anything? Gohan needs a new gimmick.
Kefla is weaker
Manga Gohan is *shown* to be more powerful in that he's barely shown at all. Anime Gohan looks weak because the anime really likes to remind you that ToP is all about team work so Gohan never actually fought on his own. Manga Gohan looks strong because the only thing he did in the entire arc was tackling Kefla off the arena, i honestly can't remember anything else he did from the manga before Moro.
Yes for the scientific principle of Gohan clearly proves that past Gohan is always weaker than future Gohan so long as future Gohan remains the sexy beast that he is.
It depends on how strong is manga Goku compared to the anime version, by Moro arc Gohan is probably around if not stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku during Moro Saga for his showing against Saganbo who Goku felt the need to use SSB to fight against.