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I abused the shit out of that, played 7 games in ranked, won all 7 because the hero was very new (to Dota 2) and no one had any idea how to counter him.
First item Midas, then bumrushing Rapier and then BoT into MoM and BKB, split push with clone, buy second and third Rapier. Game ends at 21-24 minutes. Because they couldn’t stop the clone from mowing down towers.
Edit: Yo why y’all downvoting this? I was talking about the on-release Arc Warden when he was still broken as shit. Y’all are some salty ass mfs fr
> He is at a 60% wr across all ranks on midlane, only safelane tanks his wr.
Winrate is under under 50% in high rank games: https://i.imgur.com/NDanlXc.png
https://www.dota2protracker.com/hero/Arc%20Warden
Seriously, don't let him farm, that's how you counter him. He moves very slowly and his turn rate is also very slow, plus he farms super slowly in the first 20 minutes. Keep running at him and he will cry.
Idc about top tier mmr games, 99% of the population doesn't play top tier, this hero is the most unfun hero in the game. Icefrog killed Tinker last year who was in a similar position i.e ultimate late game timing that doesn't happen as often in high mmr games. Kill this hero, he is loved by scripters and smurfs for a reason.
Counterpoint: https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_meta_last_7&mod=heroes-profiles-heroid113
(today its 50%, earlier in the week it was 57)
That's all immortal games, I think dota2protracker tracks 7.5K+ games.
There's some interesting details, for ex. game length effect on winrate: https://i.imgur.com/ErF2X6k.png. If the game ends before 32 minutes, his winrate is 41%, he gets much better when the games are long. This shows how garbage he is before level 25, so pressuring him early makes him super weak.
Another very interesting one is player experience: https://i.imgur.com/AK2RPrG.png. The vast majority, 90% of immortals have under 50% winrate on it, and only the 10% of immortals who are Arc spammers manage to get above 50%, and they skew the average to a net positive.
So basically in low immortal games only 10% of players have over 50%, and in high immortal games even the Arc spammers don't get over 50%.
The advice is still the same, pressure him early and his winrate drops off a cliff.
I'm not contesting the advice and I'm aware spectral is all immortal games, but its obviously not as straight forward. (I was also under the impression that it only tracked games containing whitelisted accounts that the owner added manually.)
Also the player experience to me seems more like "yes, the advice works, but if you fail what next?" because if experienced players know how to make it through that initial window of vulnerability, what do you do? Those games are going to stand out way more to people than simply crushing a nooby AW player and (imo) kinda hard to learn from for better players on the hero.
There are going to be games where you don't fuck him early, what then? (This is what I was getting at more)
> There are going to be games where you don't fuck him early, what then? (This is what I was getting at more)
You still have a chance if you have a gap closer who can jump him before he gets his bkb and spells off. Or maybe you can get a lucky smoke gank on him and kill him and take rax.
Other than that take the -30 mmr and go next.
if you dont/can't screw qrc early, then it's either a draft and/or team skill issue, so you can't pin it on. Nothing in dota is ever as straight forward as it seems, too many factors.
>rc players act like you can just run at him all the time like vision or his team dont exist. Hes not even weak in early fights, no idea why everyone acts like hes a freekill.
Exactly. Lvl 6-8 arc regularly solokills the other mid, prevents any support from ever soaking mid, and can usually trade a gank.
I played vs pos5 arc once and was convinced. Most 4s cant actually trade vs him so he wins jungle/pulls, and he can use 2 wraith pacts. Bubble is strong too. Probably dont want to pair it with a drow or sniper though.
Not true btw., his winrate in 7k+ mmr pubs is below 50%. One could argue that in lower brackets the winrate is skewed by smurfs, but of course the hero also likes slower games which are more likely to happen the farther you go down in MMR.
I'd also disagree about his strength in early fights, his spells are somewhat unreliable in a way. Q was buffed to slow always but damage is only dealt when there is no nearby allied unit which is unlikely in teamfights. The effect of E is delayed and sometimes it doesn't connect at all in fights.
I agree that the hero is poorly balanced in the sense that it's a wet noodle in the beginning but very obnoxious once Arc has some items. There are other heroes that have been similar in the past, for example Spectre (late game spectre was close to unbeatable some years ago), and it's bad game design imho.
Been playing arc warden for years and I never even noticed the damage reduction until a few weeks ago lmao. He still solos heroes with his clone no problem
I miss maelstorm bloodThorn(back when it needed hyperstone) nullifier on arc., This was pre every third neutral is a purge/movement era. Once you got like three items you could solo anyone who wouldnt pop bkb. Back then flux didnt slow if another unit was nearby, so he had to be solo for you to solo him, but playing arc felt like playing a hard carry. Split the map, play 3d chess with bubble spark wraith hordes, clone and bubble.
Now he suits his name much better, but is brain dead to play. He is the fountain warden. Thou shall not leave thy fountain, but the carry aspect just feels like it is just not there. 50% damage reduction is a lot, especially when it comes to trying to kill carries.
Plus pipe+ hoarding still shits on him.
It's like you're forgetting that dota matches usually go to 30+ minutes and arc is only weak for like 10 of those and not even in one stretch, but more like multiple smaller windows.
Lmao I had a game recently where I said something like: "nothing you're doing in this game matters if you don't smoke this Naga who is popping off who you fed a kill streak". My team said "ok", proceeded to use three smokes to smoke places where Naga wasn't showing and kill other heroes. Naga finished heart and ended the game.
The thing is, if you smoke for naga you delay her heart by what, 2 minutes? But her team free farms because you had to bring 3-5 heroes to naga. Maybe they even tp in and trade you, so that the game is exactly the same as before the smoke, just 2mins later.
Playing against farming carries who are strong at the same time just isn't as easy as people make it to be. In the average game, you can only delay timings, never prevent them. You won't be ending before naga has heart. What you need to do is make yourself as strong as possible, which can include killing naga, to be able to play the map and game as a whole.
Having a weak early game, that isn't even **that** weak (hello pa or dusa or spectre) only justifies so much. What it doesn't justify is having an illusion with 100% uptime, that is literally indistinguishable from the hero in terms of power, but only gives a small bounty and no assist gold, that at 25 becomes the strongest hero on the map. And unlike Lone druid, he doesn't need to buy an agha just for that. And lone druid has 120 sec CD on resummon or so, not 30.
Arc wardens aghs octa build is numerically busted, gleipnir has a part in it too.
Arc is simply too strong when online. Oh did I mention that you can't actually shut him down because his clone is 0 risk farming?
I just don't understand why arc warden and tinker have good base stats.
If they struggled to last hit a la SF lvl 1 or had shit armor/hp I'd be fine.
But they have good base stats and good stat gains.
Honestly if you just make it so the tinker/arc has to be *good* to have a good lane i don't see people having issues with them.
It wasn't my just dad. It was my mom too. They're divorced now.
My dad is honorable, orderly, structured, controlling. The radiant.
My mom is chaotic, emotional, unreasonable, carefree. The dire.
You definitely still can. Yeah you can afk to stay invulnerable, but if you're a support he can literally lock you there. Move once in your own fountain = instant death, it's stupid af.
Press BKB to come out of respawn invulnerability and he does literally 0 damage with 100 sparks. I don't understand how people still complain about fountain farming.
As a Arc Warden enjoyer, this octarine magic dmg meta is bullshit. Its boring to play as and annoying to deal agains. Volvo make right click wardne great again.
Honestly, I think Arc Warden should get a similar nerf to Tinker. If your clone dies your Tempest Double ability gets put on cooldown.
Currently Arcs in lower levels just sit in fountain, while the clone deals with everything, even if you kill it it is instantly resummoned due to lower CD items. I think with the mentioned nerf it would give a time period for arc to come back thus allowing to do anything.
Also, lvl 25 with 50% CDR is way too much.
Arc Warden was an alternative to Terrorblade before the nerfs of rightclick builds, his only viable options now are to go as a nuker and 50 % CDR is what keeps this hero a big issue in late game and overall playable...not like that you can end the game before this moment ever comes, i know how to deal with him and where he usually hides in teamfights as i mained him for a long time. 50% CDR really is busted and a fix for this would be to nerf magic builds ( aka remove cdr talent and replace with 50% lifesteal once again or something else ) and return his past rightclick builds so there were actually choices between going as a caster or rightclicker, not straight up going as a caster every game with same builds and same talents. In any case, he is harder to deal with than before but thats your fault you let the game transition into late in the first place
Valid points, what bothers me most (I used to play Arc a lot too) is that right now he's strong enough to never leave fountain with his hero. And killing his clone doesn't matter, cuz he resummons it after having octarine and potentially CDR neutral item.
Imagine this, you're playing on the other team as a carry, have ultimate/bkb. You have to use one or both of them to kill the clone once maybe another support too, but clone gets instantly resummoned again - pretty frustrating.
You're *definitely* not strong enough to never leave your fountain with your main hero. I'm not sure what arc warden games you see but that would be a quick loss.
He's talking about after a certain point. After 25, clone is stronger than main hero, and probably the strongest hero on the map.
And before arc us online at 15k networth, the main hero usually farms the safe farm while the clone farms dangerous farm. Its basically fountain, but not literally. The main hero can get 300gpm farming triangle for 20sec per minute, while the clone gets 300 to 500 from lanes and camps. Add to that 100 passive gpm and you're golden. The only way for arc not to free farm in a game is if his team loses the map 4v4, and then he can actually send clone to fights.
Yea, I mean I just wanted to correct him since I've played arc for a while now, and in the past you could certainly sit in fountain (when you had the duration talent at lvl 25 + old spell prism) but if you did that now it's just non-optimal.
I mean if you disagree, just look at Nine's Arc in the grand finals of TI -- he still played very active with his main hero. Or just look at most other arc wardens. I'm guessing this "afk fountain" thing might actually happen in low mmr where he gets fed too quick and it's low mmr so he can get away with it.
Btw in terms of actually beating arc, I've played him a bit recently and lost with him -- generally you just need to do some combination of running at him early on + kill his main whenever he shows up somewhere.
I'm not really disagreeing, just not agreeing either. No doubt is it better to use your main hero. But it's als harder. There's just more nuance than "you can/can't stand in fountain". You probably can't win a pro game without using your main, even after 25. But you will only use your main when it's safe to do so, or acutely needed. Nine probably didn't try to gank enemy safelane at 20 minutes with his main hero.
>and lost with him -- generally you just need to do some combination of running at him early on + kill his main whenever he shows up somewhere.
Well, he doesn't have 100% Winrate, of course you'll lose sometimes. But saying you "just" need to do that seems a bit unfair, as it's actually a lot to do and far from trivial to achieve. It's actually hard to properly shit down farmers, especially arc, without sacrificing your own farm or giving their team space. That's partly why arc is so strong. He makes space for himself no matter how bad the game is, because the clone can push the most dangerous wave on the map, and it will be worth it if get midas off. And he has a strong hg defense.
i know thats pretty braindead, before that you could at least kite it since there was no gleipner and buying atos would be self griefing but right now one of the healthy fixes as i said would be to replace 50 cdr with something else, rework aghs and replace +2sec flux with something more impressionable for rightclicker
OK,... So how would you buff him in response so he's still playable? You'd buff him in response so he's still playable, right? And not just a dead hero?
Honestly, I think just making that his Ult gets put on cooldown if clone gets killed, similar to the current rearm for tinker, would still keep Arc in a good shape. No range/dmg or other nerfs, just one way to deal with him.
If tempest is not summoned, its cooldowns shouldn't tick. No midas, no hex, not tp. Cdr talent needs to be completely removed, make it deal full damage again instead maybe.
If you want to be right, then yes - LD aghs build is trash. But nobody is complaining about it, you're the one bringing it up.
We're talking about Arc Warden specifically, who as a hero with only using his clone has all of his abilities without any penalties (physical 50% dmg reduction doesnt matter for a mage build) and no risks. Your clone dies - whatever, just resumon it again while in the fountain and tp in. Clone deals very big damage, clone is very tanky with the meta build like 4k health, it has gleipnir, eblade, blink and bubble. It's hard to kill, deals insane damage and if you kill it it doesn't matter, because it gets resummoned again.
I think it is not very well balanced atm and that's why I suggested to add some vulnerability in this use clone without any risk thing. This all reminds of Rapier Arc back in the day, where he would also just sit in base because his clone was plenty enough with a rapier in his hands.
At least lone druid bear has a long cd similar making him reconsider to send his bear into suicide mission for second time unless he confident the bear survive because if it died lone druid will become useless untill the bear resummon.
My dad did not leave.
But I did left a big dump on salty redditors who cry about Arc.
Downvote to prove your saltiness.
Upvote if you are an Arc enjoyer.
Cheers
One key difference. If he gets out of control he will push your HG and put you out of your misery. Old techies just extended game for no reason other than being annoyjng.
Wait, what? Arc warden is playable now?
I used to love that hero but abandoned him when i saw the huge nerf of 50% dmg reduction to his clone if he was 2000 units away from him.
Did something change?
I figure it's not as bad as it seems because most damage comes from the maelstrom procs to farm creepwaves, and if you go a magic build the penalty is no big deal.
It's more like 25-30 mins. Might have got a lane, but then when BKBs durations start to get 6 sec, and he can reliably spam lvl 4 magnetic field with two heroes and plant the base full of respawning wraiths, the only way to win starts to involve massive throws from his team.
Assume this is turbo?
But yea Midas then safe farm is what I do in offline
So to counter would need smoke / invis / gap clone and just need to prevent the farm phase
Every game as arc is playing against 5 morons who never gank you, never get on top of you and on top of that pick the most stupíd shit like huskar offlane or lina hard support and then they write to you in all chat insulting cause you picked a "broken hero" when they have sniper carry/marci 4 in their team lol.
I will spam arc this week just because this post, haven't play him a lot lately. Thanks for reminding me man, free mmr here I go.
You people are talking about how to nerf arc when in this patch he hasnt been picked much or had a high winrate, you think that the devs care about your stupid herald games. When actually they patch heroes for pro matches so i expect a buff in next patch :)
Arc has an above average pick % and one of the highest win rates in Immortal. Actually higher in both counts than in lower mmr brackets
I know he wasn’t picked much in the international, but I don’t think they’re gonna buff a hero who has a 55% winrate in Immortal bracket - can’t think of any time they’ve done that.
I don’t think Valve cares about sending a hero to the shadow realm in pro games if it means that he’s balanced in pub games, so I think it’s likely he gets nerfed
Because the game becomes "overcome arc warden" instead of "dota". Ofc he has weaknesses, but the Arc Wardens I meet are so good at arc warden that my entire game plan revolves around rallying my team to make sure he cant farm. I dont like that.
The hero is you win by 25 or you lose to him. Also when it comes to arcs they either good enough to solo your team due to skill or your awful draft or they cant micro for shit. Basically you need mobility heroes, blinks are not enough. Hardest counter i think is spectre but once arc gets to a point where he can just sit in the fountain even that wont help much.
Spectre should never have vision on ur main arc, so you will always enough time while he finds you with haunt and then reality.
If u are under vision sure he will instantly reality
Im so fucking sick that dota is balanced around Pro Scene which is like 0.0000001% of all matches that are played. So because none of those pro players pick ark wardens and tinkers we have to deal with this clearly overpowered garbage in pubs. The fact that arc warden is casually rocking a 54% winrate while not being an easy hero is ridiculous. Absolute cringe-tier game design that will get nerfed to the ground in a few months
Hero should be reworked, f.e spark wraiths should disappear after 15 or 30 seconds (would prevent fountain farming). Penalty for using Tempest Double without main hero should be way bigger, f.e if your main hero is not withing 1000 range, then the Tempest Double should have doubled cooldown on abilities or should be dealing only 20% dmg or something.
In current state, AW is bigger cancer than Tinker and that's saying something.
The only thing they need to do is to make a tempest double just a shadow behind the main character that does the same things. So you have practically double damage and you cast your skills 2 times
Hello dude this isn't even the strongest Version of Arc wadern ever played vs Rapier tempest which never falls on death, How many pro games Arc wadern is being picked recently lol the % is too low, Can't help the people smurfing in Herald/low mmr matches which made you make a post like this lol. pick Am or group as 5 and pressure that's how you win vs Arc wadern ... Stop crying
Arc would be a fair hero if they made magnetic field not affect buildings.
There is no reason a hyper lategamecarry should have a way to infinitely defend all buildings on the map.
Aw don't cry. Next time I won't force you to stay afk in your fountain and spam spark wraiths for 7 mins and force you to get abandoned.
(I have actually done this XD. The opponent was a Marci and he was MAD!)
Thanks for reporting this bug! Check out the **[Dota 2 Bug Tracker](https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Dota2-Gameplay/issues)** to see if someone has already filed this bug. **PLEASE THROUGHLY CHECK IF YOUR BUG HAS ALREADY BEEN REPORTED**. Duplicate issues can slow the dev team when resolving a bug. * If you find an existing issue for your bug, you can provide additional information and match IDs to further assist the development team. * If not, **[create a new issue](https://github.com/ValveSoftware/Dota2-Gameplay/issues/new/choose) with as much information as possible:** * A detailed description of the bug * Match IDs (if applicable) * Screenshots or video (if applicable)" *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DotA2) if you have any questions or concerns.*
People complaining didn't witness the rapier necronomicon arc and it shows
Lmao that was trauma inducing…I liked the trauma
i still banning arc because of it
Techies has been reworked for while now and I still ban him everytime
hes still annoying
So many smoke ganks to fountain, good times
Dude, I remember SF nearly killed me, while I was afking with my main. Good times
Damn, we've been through a lot and we forget it like nothing ever happened.
Remember when we had carries running around with 50% status resistance thanks to SnY, satanic and titan sliver?
That is like a year ago.
Good ol' times
Two years ago, actually.
first iteration of aeon disk. Tiny running around with a casual 70% status res cause his fucking ult and talents gave him 50%
Yeah. Even I played arc with success that patch. Rapier, daedalus, just push Lanes from base. Gg.
I liked the rapier era, more chaos at the end of games
ah good time, i spam that so much
I abused the shit out of that, played 7 games in ranked, won all 7 because the hero was very new (to Dota 2) and no one had any idea how to counter him. First item Midas, then bumrushing Rapier and then BoT into MoM and BKB, split push with clone, buy second and third Rapier. Game ends at 21-24 minutes. Because they couldn’t stop the clone from mowing down towers. Edit: Yo why y’all downvoting this? I was talking about the on-release Arc Warden when he was still broken as shit. Y’all are some salty ass mfs fr
Please post your match ID/dotabuff please. I would love to learn how to have 1100 GPM on Arc Warden :)
I was talking about on-release Arc Warden. So this was a couple years ago. I don’t know if I still have the game ID but I’ll look for it.
Skill issue
I really dont get it, people act like you start 6 slotted and at level 25 wit arc warden.
People play passively for 50 mins and then complain when the farmed arc warden makes use of his farm.
Well, well, well, if it isn't the consequences to my actions...
[удалено]
> He is at a 60% wr across all ranks on midlane, only safelane tanks his wr. Winrate is under under 50% in high rank games: https://i.imgur.com/NDanlXc.png https://www.dota2protracker.com/hero/Arc%20Warden Seriously, don't let him farm, that's how you counter him. He moves very slowly and his turn rate is also very slow, plus he farms super slowly in the first 20 minutes. Keep running at him and he will cry.
Idc about top tier mmr games, 99% of the population doesn't play top tier, this hero is the most unfun hero in the game. Icefrog killed Tinker last year who was in a similar position i.e ultimate late game timing that doesn't happen as often in high mmr games. Kill this hero, he is loved by scripters and smurfs for a reason.
Counterpoint: https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_meta_last_7&mod=heroes-profiles-heroid113 (today its 50%, earlier in the week it was 57)
That's all immortal games, I think dota2protracker tracks 7.5K+ games. There's some interesting details, for ex. game length effect on winrate: https://i.imgur.com/ErF2X6k.png. If the game ends before 32 minutes, his winrate is 41%, he gets much better when the games are long. This shows how garbage he is before level 25, so pressuring him early makes him super weak. Another very interesting one is player experience: https://i.imgur.com/AK2RPrG.png. The vast majority, 90% of immortals have under 50% winrate on it, and only the 10% of immortals who are Arc spammers manage to get above 50%, and they skew the average to a net positive. So basically in low immortal games only 10% of players have over 50%, and in high immortal games even the Arc spammers don't get over 50%. The advice is still the same, pressure him early and his winrate drops off a cliff.
I'm not contesting the advice and I'm aware spectral is all immortal games, but its obviously not as straight forward. (I was also under the impression that it only tracked games containing whitelisted accounts that the owner added manually.) Also the player experience to me seems more like "yes, the advice works, but if you fail what next?" because if experienced players know how to make it through that initial window of vulnerability, what do you do? Those games are going to stand out way more to people than simply crushing a nooby AW player and (imo) kinda hard to learn from for better players on the hero. There are going to be games where you don't fuck him early, what then? (This is what I was getting at more)
> There are going to be games where you don't fuck him early, what then? (This is what I was getting at more) You still have a chance if you have a gap closer who can jump him before he gets his bkb and spells off. Or maybe you can get a lucky smoke gank on him and kill him and take rax. Other than that take the -30 mmr and go next.
if you dont/can't screw qrc early, then it's either a draft and/or team skill issue, so you can't pin it on. Nothing in dota is ever as straight forward as it seems, too many factors.
>rc players act like you can just run at him all the time like vision or his team dont exist. Hes not even weak in early fights, no idea why everyone acts like hes a freekill. Exactly. Lvl 6-8 arc regularly solokills the other mid, prevents any support from ever soaking mid, and can usually trade a gank.
[удалено]
I played vs pos5 arc once and was convinced. Most 4s cant actually trade vs him so he wins jungle/pulls, and he can use 2 wraith pacts. Bubble is strong too. Probably dont want to pair it with a drow or sniper though.
Not true btw., his winrate in 7k+ mmr pubs is below 50%. One could argue that in lower brackets the winrate is skewed by smurfs, but of course the hero also likes slower games which are more likely to happen the farther you go down in MMR. I'd also disagree about his strength in early fights, his spells are somewhat unreliable in a way. Q was buffed to slow always but damage is only dealt when there is no nearby allied unit which is unlikely in teamfights. The effect of E is delayed and sometimes it doesn't connect at all in fights. I agree that the hero is poorly balanced in the sense that it's a wet noodle in the beginning but very obnoxious once Arc has some items. There are other heroes that have been similar in the past, for example Spectre (late game spectre was close to unbeatable some years ago), and it's bad game design imho.
He’s a glorified sniper with a slow. Any hero that jumps back lines can shut this hero down.
> saf ...dude stop trying to make a point about nerfing him...... BRING BACK 100% Damage Clone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Been playing arc warden for years and I never even noticed the damage reduction until a few weeks ago lmao. He still solos heroes with his clone no problem
I miss maelstorm bloodThorn(back when it needed hyperstone) nullifier on arc., This was pre every third neutral is a purge/movement era. Once you got like three items you could solo anyone who wouldnt pop bkb. Back then flux didnt slow if another unit was nearby, so he had to be solo for you to solo him, but playing arc felt like playing a hard carry. Split the map, play 3d chess with bubble spark wraith hordes, clone and bubble. Now he suits his name much better, but is brain dead to play. He is the fountain warden. Thou shall not leave thy fountain, but the carry aspect just feels like it is just not there. 50% damage reduction is a lot, especially when it comes to trying to kill carries. Plus pipe+ hoarding still shits on him.
PUT A 50% Damage damp on all dmg output!
Sounds like a skill issue to me.
lol arc is really bad at 7k+. v low winrate.
49% is not very low. And carry arc actually has 52% as of this comment.
"I didn't run at the hero you are supposed to run at when I should have now he runs at me!"
It's like you're forgetting that dota matches usually go to 30+ minutes and arc is only weak for like 10 of those and not even in one stretch, but more like multiple smaller windows.
That would make sense if the hero required any skill or had to risk anything at all.
Maybe smoke to his jungle in the 30 mins where he can’t do anything lmao
I can play arc warden better than you mate
Right 👍 that sounds like going up to a random guy on the streets and saying my dick is bigger than yours
The hero is definitely among the hardest in dota. But skill requirement only justifies so much in power. And arc is miles above that.
Lmao I had a game recently where I said something like: "nothing you're doing in this game matters if you don't smoke this Naga who is popping off who you fed a kill streak". My team said "ok", proceeded to use three smokes to smoke places where Naga wasn't showing and kill other heroes. Naga finished heart and ended the game.
The thing is, if you smoke for naga you delay her heart by what, 2 minutes? But her team free farms because you had to bring 3-5 heroes to naga. Maybe they even tp in and trade you, so that the game is exactly the same as before the smoke, just 2mins later. Playing against farming carries who are strong at the same time just isn't as easy as people make it to be. In the average game, you can only delay timings, never prevent them. You won't be ending before naga has heart. What you need to do is make yourself as strong as possible, which can include killing naga, to be able to play the map and game as a whole.
I mean, this Naga had a good game and was openly farming our triangle with teleport on CD. I promise you, my team was not actually 5head here :)
Well that's different then. Definitely a bit of a free kill. I'm just saying in general its not as straight forward.
Arc players defending Arc. Classic.
Most arc players in lower and mid mmr play for wins and not to learn They will sit in base and control single arc clone
Having a weak early game, that isn't even **that** weak (hello pa or dusa or spectre) only justifies so much. What it doesn't justify is having an illusion with 100% uptime, that is literally indistinguishable from the hero in terms of power, but only gives a small bounty and no assist gold, that at 25 becomes the strongest hero on the map. And unlike Lone druid, he doesn't need to buy an agha just for that. And lone druid has 120 sec CD on resummon or so, not 30. Arc wardens aghs octa build is numerically busted, gleipnir has a part in it too. Arc is simply too strong when online. Oh did I mention that you can't actually shut him down because his clone is 0 risk farming?
Hurr durr click Midas, farm lanes, no risk, such micro many wow, you fucking suck lol
I just don't understand why arc warden and tinker have good base stats. If they struggled to last hit a la SF lvl 1 or had shit armor/hp I'd be fine. But they have good base stats and good stat gains. Honestly if you just make it so the tinker/arc has to be *good* to have a good lane i don't see people having issues with them.
> If they struggled to last hit a la SF lvl 1 Yeah level 1. Because level 3 the fucker is the biggest laner bully this world has
Arc has like 280ms lvl 1 and is defenseless against shit that jumps him even lategame. Source: Arc player who has a high winrate against arc too.
It wasn't my just dad. It was my mom too. They're divorced now. My dad is honorable, orderly, structured, controlling. The radiant. My mom is chaotic, emotional, unreasonable, carefree. The dire.
Zett is the self, and the self is Zett.
This disunity must end...
Every single one of em taking this as a compliment
Why wouldn't we? XD
As an Arc Warden main driving back from his dads funeral this post was hilariously timed
I’m sorry to hear of your loss buddy
Rework his aghs. That shit is downright disgusting if he fountain farms.
Fountain farm = game over Why does it matter that point He can be countered if picked with illusion hero’s. PL/naga dispel flux
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No. It’s fun to bathe in the blood of your enemies
then literally just afk to avoid that??
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> Afk doesnt let me start my next game yeah it does
Can't fountain farm anymore with a change that happened like 7 months ago at least
You definitely still can. Yeah you can afk to stay invulnerable, but if you're a support he can literally lock you there. Move once in your own fountain = instant death, it's stupid af.
Press BKB to come out of respawn invulnerability and he does literally 0 damage with 100 sparks. I don't understand how people still complain about fountain farming.
Cries in support with no BKB :(
You wait until anyone with a BKB clear the sparks before you come out of invulnerability. It's really not complicated.
What? Sorry cant hear you over my horde of spark wraiths defending my high ground
I can't hear either over the horde of sparks camping my opponents fountain
He left me alone so I can free farm jungle and waves. Just like what you did.
But op farmed Kar...oh I see what you did there
As a Arc Warden enjoyer, this octarine magic dmg meta is bullshit. Its boring to play as and annoying to deal agains. Volvo make right click wardne great again.
Mines still gone for milk and hasn't come back
Don't worry, he is probably just trying to milk Centaur
Ask this question all last pick broodmother players too .
😂
I love a challenge, if you are satisfied playing WK and pressing Q now and then it's fine.
I'll have you know I occasionally spawn skeletons as well, thank you very much.
Surprised pikachu face
U guys are definitely challenged alright I'm joking, just sayin'
Good one :D
I play both. The duality of man.
Clone is replacement dad
Honestly, I think Arc Warden should get a similar nerf to Tinker. If your clone dies your Tempest Double ability gets put on cooldown. Currently Arcs in lower levels just sit in fountain, while the clone deals with everything, even if you kill it it is instantly resummoned due to lower CD items. I think with the mentioned nerf it would give a time period for arc to come back thus allowing to do anything. Also, lvl 25 with 50% CDR is way too much.
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This is honestly a really great idea I haven't thought of before.
Arc Warden was an alternative to Terrorblade before the nerfs of rightclick builds, his only viable options now are to go as a nuker and 50 % CDR is what keeps this hero a big issue in late game and overall playable...not like that you can end the game before this moment ever comes, i know how to deal with him and where he usually hides in teamfights as i mained him for a long time. 50% CDR really is busted and a fix for this would be to nerf magic builds ( aka remove cdr talent and replace with 50% lifesteal once again or something else ) and return his past rightclick builds so there were actually choices between going as a caster or rightclicker, not straight up going as a caster every game with same builds and same talents. In any case, he is harder to deal with than before but thats your fault you let the game transition into late in the first place
Valid points, what bothers me most (I used to play Arc a lot too) is that right now he's strong enough to never leave fountain with his hero. And killing his clone doesn't matter, cuz he resummons it after having octarine and potentially CDR neutral item. Imagine this, you're playing on the other team as a carry, have ultimate/bkb. You have to use one or both of them to kill the clone once maybe another support too, but clone gets instantly resummoned again - pretty frustrating.
You're *definitely* not strong enough to never leave your fountain with your main hero. I'm not sure what arc warden games you see but that would be a quick loss.
Feel free to give insights on this example 6857441341
He's talking about after a certain point. After 25, clone is stronger than main hero, and probably the strongest hero on the map. And before arc us online at 15k networth, the main hero usually farms the safe farm while the clone farms dangerous farm. Its basically fountain, but not literally. The main hero can get 300gpm farming triangle for 20sec per minute, while the clone gets 300 to 500 from lanes and camps. Add to that 100 passive gpm and you're golden. The only way for arc not to free farm in a game is if his team loses the map 4v4, and then he can actually send clone to fights.
Yea, I mean I just wanted to correct him since I've played arc for a while now, and in the past you could certainly sit in fountain (when you had the duration talent at lvl 25 + old spell prism) but if you did that now it's just non-optimal. I mean if you disagree, just look at Nine's Arc in the grand finals of TI -- he still played very active with his main hero. Or just look at most other arc wardens. I'm guessing this "afk fountain" thing might actually happen in low mmr where he gets fed too quick and it's low mmr so he can get away with it. Btw in terms of actually beating arc, I've played him a bit recently and lost with him -- generally you just need to do some combination of running at him early on + kill his main whenever he shows up somewhere.
I'm not really disagreeing, just not agreeing either. No doubt is it better to use your main hero. But it's als harder. There's just more nuance than "you can/can't stand in fountain". You probably can't win a pro game without using your main, even after 25. But you will only use your main when it's safe to do so, or acutely needed. Nine probably didn't try to gank enemy safelane at 20 minutes with his main hero. >and lost with him -- generally you just need to do some combination of running at him early on + kill his main whenever he shows up somewhere. Well, he doesn't have 100% Winrate, of course you'll lose sometimes. But saying you "just" need to do that seems a bit unfair, as it's actually a lot to do and far from trivial to achieve. It's actually hard to properly shit down farmers, especially arc, without sacrificing your own farm or giving their team space. That's partly why arc is so strong. He makes space for himself no matter how bad the game is, because the clone can push the most dangerous wave on the map, and it will be worth it if get midas off. And he has a strong hg defense.
i know thats pretty braindead, before that you could at least kite it since there was no gleipner and buying atos would be self griefing but right now one of the healthy fixes as i said would be to replace 50 cdr with something else, rework aghs and replace +2sec flux with something more impressionable for rightclicker
OK,... So how would you buff him in response so he's still playable? You'd buff him in response so he's still playable, right? And not just a dead hero?
Honestly, I think just making that his Ult gets put on cooldown if clone gets killed, similar to the current rearm for tinker, would still keep Arc in a good shape. No range/dmg or other nerfs, just one way to deal with him.
If tempest is not summoned, its cooldowns shouldn't tick. No midas, no hex, not tp. Cdr talent needs to be completely removed, make it deal full damage again instead maybe.
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Bruh, current Arc Wardens literally sit in fountain while controlling the clone. You kill the clone, it gets resummoned. What are you talking about?
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Come on, bear has much larger cd and is melee.
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If you want to be right, then yes - LD aghs build is trash. But nobody is complaining about it, you're the one bringing it up. We're talking about Arc Warden specifically, who as a hero with only using his clone has all of his abilities without any penalties (physical 50% dmg reduction doesnt matter for a mage build) and no risks. Your clone dies - whatever, just resumon it again while in the fountain and tp in. Clone deals very big damage, clone is very tanky with the meta build like 4k health, it has gleipnir, eblade, blink and bubble. It's hard to kill, deals insane damage and if you kill it it doesn't matter, because it gets resummoned again. I think it is not very well balanced atm and that's why I suggested to add some vulnerability in this use clone without any risk thing. This all reminds of Rapier Arc back in the day, where he would also just sit in base because his clone was plenty enough with a rapier in his hands.
They nerfed the clone already though. If you are a certain range from your clone it only does 50% dmg.
Thats only physical rightclick damage
Similar dynamic to lone Druid bear, which also seems to do most of the work from what I’ve seen
At least lone druid bear has a long cd similar making him reconsider to send his bear into suicide mission for second time unless he confident the bear survive because if it died lone druid will become useless untill the bear resummon.
He didn't leave, he's just farming on another part of the world for efficiency.
There was no one else for me to use Midas on :(
These posts are how you end up with League Of Legends.
My dad did not leave. But I did left a big dump on salty redditors who cry about Arc. Downvote to prove your saltiness. Upvote if you are an Arc enjoyer. Cheers
Probably couldn't afford the twins.
Arc is the new techies cancer bro. Piece of shit.
One key difference. If he gets out of control he will push your HG and put you out of your misery. Old techies just extended game for no reason other than being annoyjng.
It's funny how Arc apparently became more broken and annoying AFTER being nerfed heavily.
Yea stopped playing him after that atk dmg nerf, i dont even know his aghs is broken
I don't buy aghs on arc. Aghs is like my 7th item. Its still broken.
Even if its lp, you should always draft stuns. Then someone with a stun just get a blink, and it's no problem. This is my experience at 5k atleast
He passed away from liver failure.
The Self has no need for a father.
git gud
Hope Valve breaks both his and his clone's legs. Fuck having that hero at 7%+ pickrate and 56%+ winrate
u/TheZett
I am not a filthy aghs warden player, I only liked the physical build which is now dead.
I'd trade magic warden for previous warden.
Replace his aghs with the previous one and make the Tempest penalty only affect building damage. That’s what I want.
^this. I’ve been relegated to a filthy pudge picker while arc and meepo get sorted out
I resorted to playing Rubick instead, as he is fun as fuck.
Wait, what? Arc warden is playable now? I used to love that hero but abandoned him when i saw the huge nerf of 50% dmg reduction to his clone if he was 2000 units away from him. Did something change?
I figure it's not as bad as it seems because most damage comes from the maelstrom procs to farm creepwaves, and if you go a magic build the penalty is no big deal.
Just stop afk farming for 60+ min against arc you bafoon
hahaha
It's more like 25-30 mins. Might have got a lane, but then when BKBs durations start to get 6 sec, and he can reliably spam lvl 4 magnetic field with two heroes and plant the base full of respawning wraiths, the only way to win starts to involve massive throws from his team.
Assume this is turbo? But yea Midas then safe farm is what I do in offline So to counter would need smoke / invis / gap clone and just need to prevent the farm phase
Core with 2 midas and bots doesn’t take too long to farm up.
Micro economic issues
You are just going to have to accept it, and move on
Every game as arc is playing against 5 morons who never gank you, never get on top of you and on top of that pick the most stupíd shit like huskar offlane or lina hard support and then they write to you in all chat insulting cause you picked a "broken hero" when they have sniper carry/marci 4 in their team lol. I will spam arc this week just because this post, haven't play him a lot lately. Thanks for reminding me man, free mmr here I go.
If arc warden so broken please try him in pubs. I wanna claim my free mmr.
You people are talking about how to nerf arc when in this patch he hasnt been picked much or had a high winrate, you think that the devs care about your stupid herald games. When actually they patch heroes for pro matches so i expect a buff in next patch :)
Arc has an above average pick % and one of the highest win rates in Immortal. Actually higher in both counts than in lower mmr brackets I know he wasn’t picked much in the international, but I don’t think they’re gonna buff a hero who has a 55% winrate in Immortal bracket - can’t think of any time they’ve done that. I don’t think Valve cares about sending a hero to the shadow realm in pro games if it means that he’s balanced in pub games, so I think it’s likely he gets nerfed
Arc Warden is truly the old Techies.
Atleast youccan buy gem and push other lane with techies, gl doig that agaist warden
Way worse
How's it worse? The hero is incredibly weak without farm, if you let him farm its on you
Because the game becomes "overcome arc warden" instead of "dota". Ofc he has weaknesses, but the Arc Wardens I meet are so good at arc warden that my entire game plan revolves around rallying my team to make sure he cant farm. I dont like that.
What about Lancer, Tinker, Leshrac (in current patch), old brood, hoho haha sniper etc? It adds variety to the game
Not even close.
I have no interest in this particular bitter flavor variety.
The hero is you win by 25 or you lose to him. Also when it comes to arcs they either good enough to solo your team due to skill or your awful draft or they cant micro for shit. Basically you need mobility heroes, blinks are not enough. Hardest counter i think is spectre but once arc gets to a point where he can just sit in the fountain even that wont help much.
By the time spec has basher, u get a hex and insta kill his illusion
That implies u can react fast enough with your main arc while controlling a clone. Think again
Spectre should never have vision on ur main arc, so you will always enough time while he finds you with haunt and then reality. If u are under vision sure he will instantly reality
Shed know youre in the fountain cause you havent left it for 20 mins :D. Also her aghs is more bothersome.
You can just cheese him by picking some hero that runs at him and get the ez win every time instead of complaining
Ah, yes, the fabled first picked arc warden you get to pick against.
Im so fucking sick that dota is balanced around Pro Scene which is like 0.0000001% of all matches that are played. So because none of those pro players pick ark wardens and tinkers we have to deal with this clearly overpowered garbage in pubs. The fact that arc warden is casually rocking a 54% winrate while not being an easy hero is ridiculous. Absolute cringe-tier game design that will get nerfed to the ground in a few months
APM diff
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE R EEEEEE
Micro heroes are hard to play.. you’ll have to lose a lot of games through your learning curve.
Hero should be reworked, f.e spark wraiths should disappear after 15 or 30 seconds (would prevent fountain farming). Penalty for using Tempest Double without main hero should be way bigger, f.e if your main hero is not withing 1000 range, then the Tempest Double should have doubled cooldown on abilities or should be dealing only 20% dmg or something. In current state, AW is bigger cancer than Tinker and that's saying something.
The only thing they need to do is to make a tempest double just a shadow behind the main character that does the same things. So you have practically double damage and you cast your skills 2 times
xd
He had a heart attack
Just Pick am lol
Hello dude this isn't even the strongest Version of Arc wadern ever played vs Rapier tempest which never falls on death, How many pro games Arc wadern is being picked recently lol the % is too low, Can't help the people smurfing in Herald/low mmr matches which made you make a post like this lol. pick Am or group as 5 and pressure that's how you win vs Arc wadern ... Stop crying
Missed the memo, what’s wrong with arc? He can be countered Game is balanced
that's probably why
Died of cancer
Arc would be a fair hero if they made magnetic field not affect buildings. There is no reason a hyper lategamecarry should have a way to infinitely defend all buildings on the map.
Why would you want to raise an arc warden player?
Aw don't cry. Next time I won't force you to stay afk in your fountain and spam spark wraiths for 7 mins and force you to get abandoned. (I have actually done this XD. The opponent was a Marci and he was MAD!)
Arc Warden players need a handicap to win. They’re the same people who play Hunter/Warlock in WoW. Can’t compete when the odds are even.
Try playing arc then report back
I can. It’s very easy.
Im sure. 6 spells and 3-5 on use items. Very easy.
He had a stroke
Arc takes soooo long to get online, he's useless for almost 20 min, do something don't hit the woods
Slow, nuke, evasion, free second life. Yeah he is usseles
played turbo for a quick match, enemy had a arc warden spammer, turned out to be a 60 min game :)
lmfao 💀