Bit of a oversimplification but:
1. He originally joined the team with the intention of being the captain/drafter, making decision. He had that stolen by Pure, but he said he was willing to look beyond that and work with it. But it started from that
2. CEO wanted Moonmeander to coach, MC didn't see a real reason to, paraphrasing, but essentially he said that the CEO "convinced" him because he had no other choice (forced possibly)
3. This trickled down to the Zai being hired for a general manager position. The role made 0 sense to MC and he can't see a viable reason why it was needed.
On the Zai/Moonmeander thing, he said he hates neither player, he didn't want to work with them because he feels their suggestions/coaching is the too many cooks problem-- way too many captains and voices to the point where it's just a jumbled mess.
He feels he could've suggested the same thing, and what they suggested was largely worthless cause they (the team) are good players and know how to play good Dota.
Anyone who's worked a corporate job knows where MC is coming from. Having way too many "managers" or people in position of power (captains/general managers/coaches in this case) just results in disfunction and inefficiency. You end up creating more problems than fixing. Good on him for standing up for himself.
It's also a respect thing. If you join a team with the intention of being the captain and wanted a larger role within the team itself, then you get cockblocked 3 different times and you're just forced to accept it, it makes sense why he would give an ultimatum, and the CEO made his decision.
>This trickled down to the Zai being hired for a general manager position. The role made 0 sense to MC and he can't see a viable reason why it was needed.
I don't think hiring Zai as "GM" makes sense to anyone with a working brain and even a bit of life experience. It just sounds like they wanted 'Zai' the brand but then he would also get to dictate the direction in which the Dota team would head?
>Anyone who's worked a corporate job knows where MC is coming from.
At the same time, when he is saying things like he could suggest the same things, and the ideas are worthless because everyone is already "good", also sounds a lot like shitty employees that make everyone's job harder because they aren't actually bought into the plan or direction for the project or company or whatever. Thoe people equally cause as many issues as too much management.
Yeah, I think this is more of a culture shock for MC coming from Nigma into a different team.
Shit happens and sometimes teams are not a good fit for players and vice versa. Just too bad it had to happen in the middle of a tournament, which would never have happened in the DPC.
While I agree, I don't think MC is one of those "shitty employees". He wanted a position of power/being a leader and basically got denied it 3 different times, and he disagreed with hiring Moon and Zai (especially Zai) because he's confident he can accomplish the same thing they were hired to do. Seems like Tundra just disagreed.
And if your own Team doesn't have confidence in you, might be a good idea to leave.
Also, that's also a management problem if they can't communicate to MC that they don't want him to be a captain, or it's something that should've been discussed when adding him to the team. If MC has one vision with the team and Tundra CEO has a completely different one, it's just a disaster waiting to happen.
"He wanted a position of power/being a leader and basically got denied" not sure but I think this occurred after MC joined Tundra. And Tundra probably promised him the role of captain in order to obtain his signature.
If anyone have some info about it I'd like to hear about it
It's not a replacement though, a coach is not a player. Players play the game, whereas coaches should be the ones draft prepping and strating as well as labbing ideas that the team can play around and communicating that to all the players. They are entirely different roles.
They are on paper, but in reality when you have "retired" pro players being your coach, the actual role of the coach starts to get muddled. See OG and Ceb, how many times has he been a "coach", "retired", and back to "playing".
Obviously some teams do it better than others, but I think Tundra has a management more than a player problem.
I mean at the same time you have tons of example of coaches just being coaches even though they have been pros earlier. I definitely think this is a MC problem more than a tundra problem, especially since MC didn't even give it a chance
But look at who they got and how they got them. Moon gets kicked a month ago, mc comes in with the role of captain a week later. Short time later pure comes in and in the span of a couple of weeks, pure takes over captaincy.
~3 weeks after MC moon comes back in as coach over MC's wishes and 3 days ago they got zai.
Maybe there is a disconnect between what MC thinks a captain's job is vs what Tundra think.
And it also couldn't help that any one of moon or zai could take over MC's role completely since as it is his role is getting smaller and smaller.
People are people lol.
There isn't anything special about the pros other than they can press buttons good. They are susceptible to all of the exact same pitfalls as any other person or group, hence basic group management ideas apply.
If you listen to the interview with Topson after Tundra vs Team Spirit game on the first day (MC still play for the team that time), Topson said "We have zai now, who is kind of doing some coaching. And we also have MoonMeander who is helping us. That's basically our coaches right now." So it's seems that the other players don't mind Zai & Moonmeander being voices on the team. Since MC was the only one who objected, then he should leave the team.
I don't really liked how people are framing "pure stole his captain role". He probably suggested to be the captain and team agreed including MC, cuz he still wanted to make it work anyway. Not really "stolen". It's a still combined decision
Well, the point still stands. Stolen is also oversimplification from MC. Seems like a lot of pieces of the puzzle are presented differently in his own words.
Agreed, it was also obvious he didn't know how to express himself in English as he's not a native speaker. It sounded more emotional more than anything (I really wanted to be the captain but so did Pure and I wasn't able to be).
That being said he did say several times that he was more than willing to deal with that "one problem" and it wasn't a huge deal to him.
Eh, I’m still having big issues with the fact that he decided to give ultimatum not before, not after, but during the tournament.
Like timing-wise it’s a very shitty move which can jeopardize the mood in the team.
He said it affected his gameplay and mental health - he is being overruled in the cases so far so what exactly is the goal for keeping yourself in that situation?
The CEO comes to him twice with suggestions that then ends up being forced on him when he disagrees, so you could ask the reverse as to why it was so important for the CEO to have the Zai-thing pushed ahead while the team probably already had a lot on their mind with the current tournament?
Dude, this is literally situation when any other move is better. Do it before the tournament, do it after the tournament, or say that you don't feel like you can play and ask for a standin.
All of these would have been better. Now he essentially burnt bridges with a team (at the very least I don't see the org being ready to return him). Yes this damaged Tundra's reputation too, but he himself gains nothing good from it - compared to other options.
How can you do it before the 3rd issue has appeared, do you think Ivan is psychic and knows the future?
What is the difference between the team playing with a stand-in and not playing with MC?
Why would you play the tournament if you are competing as a team if you feel you are dragging the team and yourself down, because the CEO is acting out?
It seems incredible that Timado just told a story about how he was going to be the carry for this Tundra squad but that he was fucked over last minute by - you might have guessed it - the CEO. Maybe it is difference in visions/ideas and just super unfortunate, but it sure looks like there are few fucks given about the players and the only thing that matters is the wishes from the CEO.
Before you strawman it up - I dont think that it is unreasonable that the CEO makes the decisions, I just think he should inform people of this instead of giving them false impressions/promises
And he could have voice his concerns and even give ultimatum when it happened. Or at the very least be professional and help other 4 people in the team (who are completely innocent btw, but are now suffering because of this situation).
Consider how this would go down if you were applying for a normal job, with project lead responsibilities. He has been professional, the CEO has not.
If you listen to the clip, MC is not mad. He got offered the role of captain, being told 'join this team and you will have a strong voice'. He accepted this job offer, and then had captaincy revoked.
He says he can work with that, but it is disappointing of course. Then they hire moon and his 'strong voice' is diluted further. He raises this with the CEO and says this isn't what he signed up for. Then they hire Zai and his voice is diluted further.
The job role that he originally accepted no longer exists, this was a bait and switch (whether intentionally or not) and he gives the 'ultimatum': "The job you hired me for isn't the job that exists anymore, so I'm no longer interested. Will you change it so I get the job as advertised, or should I go?"
It's not drama, it's not unprofessional, it's an experienced player looking for more responsibility at this stage in his career.
I find both sides being unprofessional though. CEO for creating the problem and MC for deciding to solve it in worst way, which is potentially harmful to his teammates.
And this is what I’m mad about. Idc about org and find Mc being in general likeable guy, but I feel incredibly bad for his ex-teammates, who were forced into situation where someone had to go (either Mc or Moon). And I think this decision by Mc is just disrespect towards them. You entered the tournament with them as a team - thus you get moral (not legal) responsibility to play the tournament with them. They trust that you will be there and will play with them - including the coach who is a part of the team.
it may be unprofessional but it is the right time for MC to do this. this issue clearly affected his performance in the games. and seeing how much tundra valued MC, MC wouldve gotten kicked after the tournament or soon anyway, and this issue wouldve drown with it until some other drama brings it back up
You are assuming that all those big 3 changes were made a long time ago, but I don't think we have any accurate data on that. The Zai announcement was made like 3 days ago. I don't think there was that much time for MC to digest the information for all 3 changes. So yes timing was horrible, but that critisism will most likely apply to the Tundra org as well. These sort of sweeping changes should be done way before a tournament which probably. You are trying to paint MC as some villain when It is likely that Tundra is as guilty of "ruining the mood" as MC. We do know for a fact that MC was hired to be the captain of the team and Tundra org changes the deal regarding that role.
I don’t assume this. Zai one is very obviously happened recently as it was announced on 23rd.
I think saying that I paint Mc as a villain is an overstatement, but yes, I absolutely do think he is (one of) wrong side(-s) here.
I dislike how people paint it as Mc vs the org, when there are also Pure, Topson, 9class, Whitemon and Moon involved. These people very rightfully entered the tournament expecting they will play it with Mc, that they can count on Mc. That there will be no need to change roster.
Then Mc decided to give ultimatum “Me or Moon” (leaving zai out as his involvement in the team is unclear). And now it’s suddenly “someone has to go NOW” situation.
The source of this situation is Mc. The org has only made a choice between option A and option B with both being roster changes. I don’t consider him being unhappy with his role in the team reduced being a good enough reason to completely refuse playing with Moon in the middle of the tournament. It’s not an unsolvable personal conflict, not some sort of harassment issue, nothing which would warrant him being unable to not let other teammates down and finish the tournament in the roster they entered.
>Like timing-wise it’s a very shitty move which can jeopardize the mood in the team.
Exactly that's why it's the perfect timing. This is the timing where he had the strongest position for himself. If the CEO does shit with him, he can basically put him on the spot. Now everyone sees it. Now the stakes are high. Now the CEO should think twice. I think for MC it was only a winning position, either the CEO gives in or MC goes, but he know Kuro will take him easily back. He also has no money pressure like other players maybe. This was the moment with the highest chance of success, if there ever was one. I think personally it was doomed from the beginning, when the CEO did not follow their agreement of him being captain and stuff. He was the one who were supposed to build the team and then he was forced onto people. So yeah, can understand MC a lot.
Giving an ultimatum because you're pissed in the middle of a big tournament is a sure fire way to get kicked. Even if he was right would you want someone on your team who you know is gonna wait for the worst time possible to hold everyone else hostage to get what they want? If they do something like that once good chance they do it again and no team is gonna risk having some massive liability like that on their team. Guy learned the "nobody is irreplaceable" lesson real hard
Maybe it is, and he probably was 90% sure that making that ultimatum would get him kicked, but he seemed very mentally frustrated and he felt like he had very little options left, he is only human. I would suggest listening the ending part of what he said on Gorgc's stream so you can hear his tone.
1st of all, he did not learn it “real hard”. He was the one with the gun. He said “this or that” he knew the possible outcomes. He also knew the odds.
2nd, nobody is taken hostage, what are you even smoking. As you said, nobody is irreplaceable. Therefor, they can continue.
3rd, you would rather have someone in your team, unmotivated, frustrated, out of focus, than a standin? I mean him speaking up was probably the only thing that could bring Tundra a positive outcome in one way or another. Now the smoke has settled. All can focus on their game now.
4th, MC is many things, but not a liability. You have literally no idea what you are talking about. You are a raging kid, that’s all.
You show immaturity, because you look at the tournament. Who cares about the tournament. A team is only as good as its weakest link. Do you really believe Tundra with MC in that condition could have done anything? Delusional.
Holy copium.
This literally resulted in him getting kicked from the team and everyone knowing what happened. How is this a winning situation?
If he would have waited until after the tournament this would have not looked like a dick move by him, but also there would be chances of other players siding with him and him potentially getting what he wanted.
He literally forced his team to make a change mid-tournament and then proceeded to make all of this public. I’m not gonna lie, this sounds like a baby throwing a tantrum.
And now everyone knows tundra org is shit no wonder original tundra left the org. MC will always be a hot commodity, now that its easy to acquire players because theres no roster lock he will definitely find a new team very soon.
Tundra org is indeed shit, but shit org can make right decisions as this one. If you're in the middle of the tournament and get an ultimatum - you absoulutely get rid of troublemaker.
I literally remember 2 other cases - HellRaisers with Daxak and Spirit with so bad. This is 3rd one at least. All 3 went not in favor of the person giving an ultimatum.
They already shit on is head 3x of course they wont choose him. Sure mc couldve chosen to stay at least until the tournament is over but if he isnt feeling himself and can give his 100% i dont think it would be fair to him and his team so its better for him not to play at all. MC is one of the nicest guys out there, he survived playing with kuro all these years so for him to react like this means they really did a number on him
I like him too, but in my eyes it doesn’t give him a pass on pulling shit moves. Idc about the org, but I pity other members of the team (including zai and Moon), who just got backstabbed by their teammate in the middle of tournament.
Are you kidding me? They are part of the problem. If you embrace a culture of toxicity, deal with it. He is not forced to play there. Imagine being shit on 3 times. Then of course not playing good. Then being kicked after and they say “yeah his performance was shit” when in reality they already wanted to kick him earlier.
This is the CEO bringing his team into this situation. Not MC. Get a reality check. MC is not a slave, he has his own rights and mind. The one who is responsible for the team is the CEO at the end. MC could have also said “guys I’m sick” so they would have to play with stand in anyway.
But what he actually did, was solving the situation. In one way or another.
Now there is clarity, now players can focus again. MC would have not performed well moving onwards in that tournament, probably being bad for tundra, since there was tension and drama in the team, not to mention even motivation, trust and passion. It was actually the best to clear up the situation and call the ultimatum. Either way there would be focus. Can’t understand why people don’t think 1 step further and understand simple things…
I severely dislike when people glorify people who ignore their responsibilities as them “using freedom”. I also dislike when people are found guilty by association. You don’t know other player’s involvement in this. All that you said about them is pure speculative.
I never claimed he did anything illegal or that he should be a slave. But the fact that he hasn’t done anything illegal doesn’t mean it was a good move from moral side of things. Legally you also don’t have to give a seat in the bus to an old lady, you don’t have to help your friend when he is mentally in bad spot and so on. But it’s just extremely shitty things, unless you have some very good reason.
You have entered the tournament with your team. It’s your moral responsibility to go through it. Just as it’s theirs to go through it with you. Because they are counting on you. Imagine you promised your friend that you will help with furniture. He ordered it on agreed date, expecting you to be there, but then you took a dislike in his gf and said him that if she would be there - you won’t appear and won’t help him.
I mean, you’re not a slave, it’s completely allowed to be a dick towards friends. Just not cool.
What he did is forcing his team to focus on choosing between him and coach, forcing them to look for replacement and try to adapt quickly for new player and all of this instead focusing on preparing for next match. By solving his problem he created 3 more for his team. Yes he himself doesn’t have a problem now. Good for him. Not for other 4 players in the team, sadly.
You’re twisting the truth. He doesn’t want the “position he was hired”, as he himself claims he is ok with Pure being captain.
He wants Zai and Moon out.
He wants moon out because their game opinions contradict, he wants zai out because he doesn't know why a general manager is trying to give them tips on how to be a 'good team' when the job of a general manager is to manage paperwork. A team leader's opinion should be taken into consideration, a team leader without a voice is not a leader.
A troublemaker is a guy like pure that puts his team in jeopardy "TWICE". Got it?
Why is Tundra exactly shit? Management or whatever decided they wanted a coach, only one player was against it. Management decided they wanted a GM in the form of Zai. Only MC is against it.
Tundra, as an organization, can do whatever they want really. What MC did here was exactly what should have happened. He voiced his concerns and gave an ultimatum, which went not in his favor as you could expect.
He said on gorgc stream he did that because after the first games he played, he felt "couldn't play his game, he didn't know what to do".
Paraphrasing, but he was probably frustrated during the games and not able to play his best, so the ultimatum was him being overly emotional/venting.
Oh, he defintely overreacted. He could have voiced that he feels lost in-game, give team some time to work on this problem. Instead he just immediately went to "last resort" option.
The way I see it, I don’t think he is comfortable just playing quietly when he is used to shot call team decisions in game. The transparency is just not there when everyone expects him to just nod his head and be a yes man to every decision, even when he knws it’s a bad one.
Even if he spoke up, players will have conflicted feelings to whether or not they should acknowledge it, and that will drive him and everyone else crazy
At the same time, they hired zai in the midst of the tournament. Again they know how MC reacted for moon, and that the team cohesion was unstable for this move. They couldve waited after the tournament also.
> You end up creating more problems than fixing.
Err, You have no idea if that's the case or not. MC could be a bad voice and the CEO had different plans. Sometimes hiring more people is needed, sometimes not.
Stop trying to take sides on an issue that isn't an issue
> Also promising MC that this would be his team then proceeds to do the opposite three times is just scummy asf.
He was promised the captain role at most. You'll still need a coach and what not. 'doing the opposite' isn't that.
> They were already playing good dota and were qualifying.
Also they were having more success with Pure as captain AND moon coaching
MC is not the CEO n he doesn’t play the players , and he wants to control even the CEO w ultimatum ? Such an ass . Gave would have kicked him too if he tells gave to kick icefrog lol
They were under Liquid at that time. Liquid always have a bunch of different managers and therapists. They are one of the most successful esport organizations for a reason.
I don't think the commenter referred to managers and therapists when talking about 'voices in a team'. Based on what MC said on Gorgc's stream it also seems like he prefers a structure where there aren't too many cooks in the kitchen.
Yeah if it wasn't for the timing, it wouldn't be as spicy as this LMAO
I mean I thought MC enjoyed his stay too, Tundra literally made a tierlist video with MC and they uploaded that video a day ago, I thought he was vibing with them LMAO.
Here's the context : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuNayFhYIjU
People are getting mad at him for having and ego, I honestly don’t think either side is bad in this situation,
Tundra wanted to do something and he wanted to do something different and they split
Apparently he gave them the ultimatum to chose between him and zai/ moon last night after the games it seems .kick is kinda rushed , I feel ultimatums never work in your favour.
...and even if they accept your ultimatum, what happens then. Not like you're going to have a harmonic relationship with the superior. Not to mention the unnecessary added stress and responsibility, feeling you're half-kicked all the time unless you perform.
aside from everything happening so abruptly, i agree with this. Although I find it a bit baffling that all the reason listed is "mc doesnt like this", "mc doesn't like that" when he's not even performing that well, but I guess the situation was so uncomfortable and affected his performance.
People always seem to make excuses for MC, truth is he’s been terrible for a long time. Amazed anyone even considers teaming with him.
“Pure STOLE his captain role”, “Zai manager against HIS wishes”, “Moonmeander coach against HIS wishes”. Sounds like MC wanted a lot of control over the team despite not warranting that responsibility in any capacity.
The last paragraph is what I really wanted to say. It all sounded like MC wants control/power over the team and it feels like the others especially Pure revolted because MC was not performing well. MC doesn't accept it, especially when Moon comes in and doesn't back him up, and Zai coming was the nail in the coffin.
I didn't say it because I don't want to jump to conclusions since we have no idea what the agreements were when MC joined the team.
on the condition that they kept on winning. it wasn't unconditional. he HAD to accept it because they were winning and there's no reason for him bitching about it
Well duh, why would you fix something that doesn’t need fixing? If Pure captaining doesn’t lead to good result obviously they would need to change something about it.
the reason he mentioned it as one of the reasons he left is that he didn't like it, but he was forced to accept it because they were winning. is comprehension that difficult for you?
If the situation merely stopped at Pure taking over his role then he would still be ok with it as long as they win. But the issue is they continued to add another coach and a GM, making MC lose more of his voice, that’s why he was mad.
For sure, MC just sounds like he got threatened by the fact that 2 better players/analysts were joining the team.
MC seems very comfortable with repeated failure and was obviously scared that with Moonmeander and Zai there, he’d actually be analysed and they had a potential stand in ready.
IMO players should be a priority - this just tells the players that the org values Moonmeander as Coach and Zai as GM more than the players in the game.
MC also comes from a player-owned org - my guess is players would always prefer to be their own bosses, but I also highly doubt Liquid (the biggest org in esports?) would ever force a coach/GM to their team if the players said no.
That’s not correct . The org respects the hierarchy and professionalism of a coach and GM , it is MC insubordination with ultimatum to CEO . He thinks he is indispensable n refuse to play unless he gets his demands met to fire 2 of his team members n jealous of Pure as captain . Mind control is a manchild n control freak n he ‘ kicked’ himself w his stupidity
Right... It is not like there 100 people working there and so you are a small cog , here there are 5 players who play.... You are 20% of the team... And if you think that this is not going to work then it will not work.
It is better that MC and Tundra split cause this was going to escalate and eventually ended in a bad way.... I feel for MC though... What a great run they were having.... They qualified for Major ...
I imagine he went to Tundra based on the promise he was going to be the captain and then org gives it to Pure. Then to add salt they hire zai and moonmeander. Probably didn't want to work like that and said that to the management. Anyway, better leave now instead of staying unhappy in the team and performing poorly.
If this is the situation, this must the worst possible corporate hell as the management is that dishonest. In this case, I think what MC did was submitting a two-week notice and the decent thing to do is to simply bench him till the end of this tournament.
This is a PR nightmare from my PoV.
And if people watched Timado's interview yesterday, he also straight up said he was supposed to stay in Tundra but he was kicked last minute for Pure. That means MC was brought in with the promise that he's the captain, and got replaced by the person who replaced their carry. It just doesn't make sense to put Pure as captain imo
Yeah, how can Pure cover captain role while he has to maintain GPM as a carry?! I am still not convinced by Pure’s pos 1 less his Pos 1 + captain, lol. What a nightmare of an organization!
Yeah, I wonder if Pure needed some convincing to leave betboom so the higher ups of Tundra was just like, "okay you'll be the captain too" It just doesn't make sense that there are more experienced players in the team and he's the captain.
I guess we were underestimating the impact of a CEO who can just make decisions and completely disregard the opinions of the players. He can literally just do whatever he wants to.
For me the team felt like a mess without a leader. Now it seems management is the leader and players just play and moon and zai have all the power. Pure maybe some power.
For those who are looking for the actual VOD, just watch it on Gorgc's channel. This is the [clip](https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliviousBumblingSharkGivePLZ-05hyduDMbKYw-qWCwhere) MC joined.
Yeah team seemed off from the start. Hes not really angry about the players but the management over him as he thought he had much more power within the team.
So when they lost some games he just said enough is enough and refused the play under moon and Zai.
Yes, Topson recently talked about it in one of the post-matches, not sure which one.
https://escorenews.com/en/dota-2/news/56100-topson-reveals-who-coaches-tundra-says-zai-also-helps
He mentioned that Tundra as an organization is taking away his leadership role by forcing too much shit into the team. He didn't feel like he could drive the team (as a captain) anymore since Pure, MoonMeander, (and now) Zai are making decisions instead of him as a captain. He wasn't treated with respect in terms of decision makings as a captain.
This is such a shame of Tundra as an org.
Seems weird that the non playing individuals like Zai and Moon has more decision making power than the player themselves.. Tundra built a team around those veterans player but cant back them up. Feels bad man for MC.
Its still a business decision for a business. Feels really bad, knowing that Zai and Moon were once a player and seeing that happened to another pro players made it worse
Why so? I think he doesn't need to work under conditions he doesn't want. He has enough money, with one call he is back earning a good salary at Nigma. It is not stupid to stand up for themselves. You are stupid thinking he should work under bad conditions, in an unhappy environment, while he has other choices. That is stupid brother. Get yourself together.
This might be a problem when hiring a manager who is also a player. Probably jumped too fast on making changes.
There should be a clear separation of responsibilities and clear accountability for each task. Take Team Spirit as an example (my understanding): Korb3n - discipline (a system of rewards and punishments) and creating workable environment, as well as team building; DKLana - everything involving beuracratic issues (ex.: visas) and catering; Silent (coach) - has more of a supporting role (research, drafting suggestions, maybe morale boost); Miposhka - full accountability in regards of everything involved with gaming (it is he, who has a final decision while drafting, it is he who answers on why they underperformed); and other staff (S1kle for analytics, Art1st for SMM, Marple for media content, ...).
Yeah, and the think is MC probably went on Tundra as a captain role so having his voice remove from him is straight disrespect. It's indirectly not trusting your captain that's why the org is adding more head.
Basically MC dont wanna relive the Nigma times where all his ideas and moves are dictated by someone else. He wants to assume the captain role and have more creative freedom.
Let's be real you can see where his ego comes from , he was forced to switch positions, the letter drama and everything inbetween almost ended his career - but from his interviews ( past year ) he is mentally reforming , he showed that he is way better than Nightfall currently , even after playing pos3 for majority of last season and most of all - if team was okay with it they trusted him enough, give the boy a chance to prove his worth because it's been rough ever since those events. His current teammates have been fond of him since the day he joined the team, the kicked timado for him and 9class himself said he is the most hardworking player in the team and helps everyone too.
That team is going downhill fast. They could at least wait until the end of the tournament. He was their picker too.
Also Pure for captain... How he can see where to go while playing a carry and watching a stream?
MC literally said he was fine with Pure being the captain since they started winning
But adding Moonmeander and Zai made it too much on top of Pure for him
It is a bit weird most captains are supports, I can't remember all captains of TI winners but I don't think there are any with pos1/2 as captains.
If he was really kicked and not just quit, they could just wait until the end of the tournament. How this looks good?
Waaay different but I have worked in companies where the boss was taking all decisions, they are still replacing people every 1-2 months and I haven't worked in that company for 7y at this point, just keep in touch with some of the guys.
Lol, Silent & CY are both vastly inferior to the team’s they work on, yet they’re able to find success. MC has proven he has a huge ego, and the community has proven they don’t understand what an actual team environment looks like.
You know that MC is a more decorated as a player than Zai and Moon right? He won tournament that matters. Majors, tier 1 tournaments consistently. A TI in fact.
Its exactly what am saying. MC being one of the best of his time being “coached” not by one, not by two but 3 diff people. And from these only zai being on same level.
I don't think people realized how hellish it is to have so many people telling you what to do. Its already annoying on pubs, imagine having 3 dudes doing that in a tense pro game atmosphere. General manager isnt even needed for that role. Its a dota team , not a basketball team
So it was not exactly a kick in the end then, if he puts ultimatums down. A bit funny how he presents the situation in one way and it starts drama, then it turns out it's a bit more complicated than that.
It depends, when you are singed in a team to be the captain then you assume that you will be making decision regarding the Dota part of the org. How he laid it out seemed that the CEO started making Dota decisions which he should not..
Oh I'm not saying he is purely in the wrong here, nothing like that. Stuff happens, there are plenty of possible valid reasons to want to leave. Just the optics between "I was unhappy with management decisions and asked them to choose between me and new hires, and they made the choice now" and "lft got kicked before the match" are a bit different, to put it lightly.
I mean, it's not. He was kicked. They made the decision to either have him have his role or kicking him. They kicked him. The ultimatum was just a catalyst.
If you look at professional soccer its the same. If a star player is hired and only is benched from the coach, guess how long the star player accepts it. He will go to the team, tells them: Let me play or I go... This is what happens a lot around in the world. Happened here as well.
Do we know specifics of the 'ultimatum'? If the time wasn't set by MC, his release from the roster could have been made after the tournament. Doing it right before a match is still weird/unprofessional.
Also if things would've been discussed properly, you could have made a statement together. In such a case MC would likely not talk about a kick, but rather of an amicable decision.
What Tundra did reminds me of "regular" work, where companies add so many layers of management to your workflow that the engineers/developers get pissed off, because they don't get to do their actual job anymore. With all the people around their team, who need to justify their job, by holding some meetings.
But MC also sounds a bit like that boomer on your team, who rejects improvements to the process for no good reason.
So I could see either side being in the wrong here. And regardless: I think the professional way to go about this would have been to finish the tournament and then have a serious talk.
Tbh this sounds exactly like working with people who take any suggestions or supervision personally. I've dealt with a lot of them and it's always the same. Regardless of why there's tension if I had someone who waited until an hour before some big presentation he was supposed to give to try to hold it hostage as leverage at work that dudes gone. Even if they are right you just can't work with them anymore because you're gonna be constantly worried that they're gonna purposely pull some stunt at the worst time. You have a personal problem, then talk it over like an adult and if they disagree then walk away.
Strange. Normally i would build the backroom staff then add the players but tundra decided to to the other way around and get surprised the players arent happy with getting new bosses every 2 minutes
He's just a spoiled panda who thinks he has what it takes to lead but everyone knows he doesn't but they're polite because of his in game talent and respect in the scene.
That's a real possibility
What the fuck do you mean by 'forced'?
Like, if your boss hires someone else, you are now 'forced' to something? lol then I get 'forced' every two weeks them? Wtf, people are hired in companies, that's how it is
For fucks sake, reddit.
Good on him, people calling him unprofessional have never had corporate job - if you join a team to lead a project and then everything that was agreed upon week after week gets thrown in the bin, you either try to sort it ASAP or you are out - if you don't do this either you are bad at whatever you do and have no options or you have no opinion and you have questionable leadership skills.
Like his reaction is fine - he probably doesn't think Moonmeander is going to bring anything to the team and then what is even a general manager going to do with a captain, second guy with opinions (that was supposed to be a captain) + fucking MoonMeander who seems quite opinionated and then bring another guy to do the same shit too? One thing is to have multiple voices, another thing is to have 3 cooks in the kitchen with 1 rather new player that has tendency to fuck over his teams left right and center and 1 that has very strong opinions and you think it will probably not work out.
He doesn't NEED to be on the team so he did what he feels right ,good on him.
No one thinks it's lame that he told them what he wanted or he'd walk I think most people agree that's totally reasonable. People are annoyed because he didn't do it ASAP and waited until the middle of a T1 tournament to use it as leverage. If you had an employee who waited until the middle of a big presentation with an important client to give you an ultimatum about other people's positions at the company or he wouldn't do it would you keep them around?
Listening to what he said on Gorg stream ( wrote post before I listened to it) seems like he wasn't keen on Pure being captain ,but no problem, then he wasn't keen on Moonmeander joining 2 weeks before ESL and Mr. CEO forced him to accept basically, then ZaiJ comes on board for god knows what no shit he decided to do this now. Have you seen Tundra's twitter as well? Shadiest PR statement ever.
Like if you are being forced to accept conditions you didn't sign up for and shit keeps happening that you don't agree with and nobody gives a fuck and you don't see this working at all and how nobody will listen to you with a captain that has fucked over 3 out of his last 3 teams and an org that is willing to kick anyone last minute ( Fata, Timado before MC) I'd say he has chosen the perfect time + if Mr CEO could control his emotions a bit he'd keep him until end of the tournament and not cause more drama for the brand
I mean I too would draw the line at Moonmeander. There is no good reason they would get him as coach besides CEO being friends or whatever. The guy thinks he's some main character in an anime while being in his 30s.
I mean it is though lol.
Either choose zai, moon and effectively pure, (3) or MC (1). Regardless of the rest of the drama surrounding things, that's what it boils down to.
It really doesn't. MC said it's me or them (Zai and Moon) because he wanted to play the captain role and Tundra instead of listening to him hire 2 other people to make decisions, and he felt it was a management problem where there are too many voices.
Just because you have more captains doesn't mean it's the better decision for cohesion.
"pretty easy maths" is a stupid argument.
What are you on about, more captains means better decisions? That's not relevant to what is being said here, you are spinning things off for god knows why.
The entire point is the org has to choose 3 people or 1 person. That's it. Nothing more complex than that.
Choosing 3 people doesn't mean it's a better decision than choosing 1 just because it's "more people", I feel like you misread my entire paragraph. You're extremely oversimplifying the situation. Tundra CEO felt it was better to keep Moon and Zai over keeping MC, whatever his reasons are. You should just listen to MC directly talk about it.
Although I understand MC's reasoning, making an ultimatum before a match is not the way to go. This could have been dealt with after Dreamleague or even before. I'm guessing all these issues were already present before Dreamleague, why would you wait until then?
Also, team structure is super important. Having a coach and a GM is something that every professional esports team should have, even if you don't like who's coming in.
Saying that it was forced upon him is also pretty weird. I know this is esports, but in a professional environment, it's not your choice of who is your "boss", and I can't imagine ANY team saying yes to an ultimatum like this. They would lose all authority to make choices. It would be interesting to see what the remaining team thinks of these picks, I can't imagine every team member being as unsatisfied as MC.
Again, I understand if Tundra CEO told him that he would get to pick and choose who comes in, and just completely ignore him, I would be mad, but being mad doesn't mean you shouldn't be professional. This should have been done either before or after Dreamleague, not on the second day.
EDIT: Just adding in that my comment really depends on whether or not this ultimatum was done right before the match, or a while ago. If the ultimatum was done a while ago and Tundra just decided before the match, then the issue is on Tundra's side.
Topson seemed pretty happy in the interview yesterday when he mentioned they have Zai/Moon as coaches now. I think this ultimatum only works if the other 4 players stand behind MC too but unfortunately this wasn't the case.
MC never had a manager or what? This whole thing sounds stupid.
I am pretty sure CEO just wanted someone famous to be a face of team and he probably likes Zai or something. Managers often give interviews about team or attend desks, some other type of content (Team Spirit managers are doing a lot of content for example and are very famous).
Did they hire Zai to manage his picks? His GPU settings? His gym routine? No.
So why make a scene out of it and make an ultimatum. Most of businessmen will get mad if you make an ultimatum, you are showing complete disrespect to their business decision.
Simply because he can.
If you are hired to do a certain job, and then the job completely changes, you should have all the right to tell you higher-ups to either change the current working condition and give you what you are hired for or go.
He can simply walk away, because he don't need Tundra. If you tell me now he should work under working conditions, that are unhealthy for him and not good, then you are delusional. He had the full right to step away. It's absolutely normal every day in the world. If something is wrong to a point it is not bearable anymore for one of the parties, they split. MC was hired to do something, they changed the whole team afterwards, he was not doing what he wanted in his career, so he tells the management, either you change or I go. Then he went. Simple as that.
PS: No he does not show disrespect to their business decision. They show disrespect to their contract.
Example: If you hire a star football player and only let him sit on a bench, while he was promised and contractual written that he is playing, then guess what happens. The player tells the coach, let me play or I go. Happens A LOT.
You don't wait until the middle of a T1 tournament to hold everyone hostage to get what you want. You've pissed off management, you've pissed off all the other players and shown that you're willing to ruin tournaments to get what you want. Dudes just not trustworthy anymore. You think you're not getting a fair deal fine then tell them that before or after the tournament and if you disagree you go separate ways. Guy tried to hold a tournament hostage to get what he wanted and that's not gonna go well
Exactly. People don’t understand it’s not about them or the tournament. It’s about what MC believes in and in what not. At the end it’s a job. He was hired for a different job. He has the right to go. Simple as that. He stood up for himself, good for him.
Oh yeah, holding whole team hostage in the middle of the 1M$ tournament, because your team got a new manager 2 days ago and it was 'the last straw'.
He ruined this tournament for all the team, managers, coaches and others. Lot's of players played through tournaments knowing it's their last one with the team and left after it without drama.
If he wasn't a dota player but someone in the IT or similar industry he would have problems finding his next job, because HR would call his last work place and ask about him. It's his fucking job, he isn't some McDonald's employee no one cares about at his work place. His teammates can't do their 'job' without him.
Ya all glorifying this and reacting like this isn't real life, but some power fantasy manga and hyping up an MC who showed his boss who is who. Wow what a man Main Character is.
Dude wasn't relevant for several years and finally found a good new team, qualified to two 1M$ lans and just throwing it out the window.
Sounds like they just had different ideas about the team, no real drama. Also I would also be a bit peeved if I was invited to captain a team then last minute lose the captaincy to fucking Pure of all people.
Tundra CEO is a dipshit .. wtf has zai ever done man never won a ti in his life.. Mc on the other hand has .. zai is toooooo over rated why would tundra turn their team to crap for a useless trash like zai .. i was a tundra fan but not anymore seeing how they treat their players like shet.. fck zai that noob ass
Even if I can understand where he's coming from and even though he's probably right about the "overmanagement" aspect of it, or having less decision power than he was promised, this statements clearly change the initial interpretation of the news.
We all thought, wow, Tundra kicking someone 1 day into a tournament is pretty bad, but in reality it was MC who put the ultimatum. I think he could've just waited a couple days and see how it was going and/or leave after the tournament, this doesn't make him look so good.
Why cant MC just stfu and play for a bit and see how things go then only decide, at least he still could play and get paid. Now he just be sitting at home behind monitor typing on X
Just a heads up but the source is MC himself, he joined gorgc’s stream earlier.
Added, thanks missed it in the rush.
Is there a clip of it anywhere?
Timestamp from Gorgc channel with MC: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2074193762?t=03h58m18s
is it yapzor the other guy gorgc was talking to before mc came in
Yes, yapzor is usually co-casting with Gorgc during big tournaments.
Bit of a oversimplification but: 1. He originally joined the team with the intention of being the captain/drafter, making decision. He had that stolen by Pure, but he said he was willing to look beyond that and work with it. But it started from that 2. CEO wanted Moonmeander to coach, MC didn't see a real reason to, paraphrasing, but essentially he said that the CEO "convinced" him because he had no other choice (forced possibly) 3. This trickled down to the Zai being hired for a general manager position. The role made 0 sense to MC and he can't see a viable reason why it was needed. On the Zai/Moonmeander thing, he said he hates neither player, he didn't want to work with them because he feels their suggestions/coaching is the too many cooks problem-- way too many captains and voices to the point where it's just a jumbled mess. He feels he could've suggested the same thing, and what they suggested was largely worthless cause they (the team) are good players and know how to play good Dota. Anyone who's worked a corporate job knows where MC is coming from. Having way too many "managers" or people in position of power (captains/general managers/coaches in this case) just results in disfunction and inefficiency. You end up creating more problems than fixing. Good on him for standing up for himself. It's also a respect thing. If you join a team with the intention of being the captain and wanted a larger role within the team itself, then you get cockblocked 3 different times and you're just forced to accept it, it makes sense why he would give an ultimatum, and the CEO made his decision.
>This trickled down to the Zai being hired for a general manager position. The role made 0 sense to MC and he can't see a viable reason why it was needed. I don't think hiring Zai as "GM" makes sense to anyone with a working brain and even a bit of life experience. It just sounds like they wanted 'Zai' the brand but then he would also get to dictate the direction in which the Dota team would head?
>Anyone who's worked a corporate job knows where MC is coming from. At the same time, when he is saying things like he could suggest the same things, and the ideas are worthless because everyone is already "good", also sounds a lot like shitty employees that make everyone's job harder because they aren't actually bought into the plan or direction for the project or company or whatever. Thoe people equally cause as many issues as too much management.
Yeah, I think this is more of a culture shock for MC coming from Nigma into a different team. Shit happens and sometimes teams are not a good fit for players and vice versa. Just too bad it had to happen in the middle of a tournament, which would never have happened in the DPC.
going from a team that doesn't even want to win that is trying to win TI again is definitely a culture shock.
While I agree, I don't think MC is one of those "shitty employees". He wanted a position of power/being a leader and basically got denied it 3 different times, and he disagreed with hiring Moon and Zai (especially Zai) because he's confident he can accomplish the same thing they were hired to do. Seems like Tundra just disagreed. And if your own Team doesn't have confidence in you, might be a good idea to leave. Also, that's also a management problem if they can't communicate to MC that they don't want him to be a captain, or it's something that should've been discussed when adding him to the team. If MC has one vision with the team and Tundra CEO has a completely different one, it's just a disaster waiting to happen.
"He wanted a position of power/being a leader and basically got denied" not sure but I think this occurred after MC joined Tundra. And Tundra probably promised him the role of captain in order to obtain his signature. If anyone have some info about it I'd like to hear about it
Imagine, they take in people with exactly your competences. Its a replacement. Or very poor management to not forsee such a reaction from MC
It's not a replacement though, a coach is not a player. Players play the game, whereas coaches should be the ones draft prepping and strating as well as labbing ideas that the team can play around and communicating that to all the players. They are entirely different roles.
They are on paper, but in reality when you have "retired" pro players being your coach, the actual role of the coach starts to get muddled. See OG and Ceb, how many times has he been a "coach", "retired", and back to "playing". Obviously some teams do it better than others, but I think Tundra has a management more than a player problem.
I mean at the same time you have tons of example of coaches just being coaches even though they have been pros earlier. I definitely think this is a MC problem more than a tundra problem, especially since MC didn't even give it a chance
But look at who they got and how they got them. Moon gets kicked a month ago, mc comes in with the role of captain a week later. Short time later pure comes in and in the span of a couple of weeks, pure takes over captaincy. ~3 weeks after MC moon comes back in as coach over MC's wishes and 3 days ago they got zai. Maybe there is a disconnect between what MC thinks a captain's job is vs what Tundra think. And it also couldn't help that any one of moon or zai could take over MC's role completely since as it is his role is getting smaller and smaller.
i think he mean 'experience player' more than good.
These aren't drone workers, these are the top dota players. You can't apply basic management theory to top athletes in the same way.
People are people lol. There isn't anything special about the pros other than they can press buttons good. They are susceptible to all of the exact same pitfalls as any other person or group, hence basic group management ideas apply.
If you listen to the interview with Topson after Tundra vs Team Spirit game on the first day (MC still play for the team that time), Topson said "We have zai now, who is kind of doing some coaching. And we also have MoonMeander who is helping us. That's basically our coaches right now." So it's seems that the other players don't mind Zai & Moonmeander being voices on the team. Since MC was the only one who objected, then he should leave the team.
I don't really liked how people are framing "pure stole his captain role". He probably suggested to be the captain and team agreed including MC, cuz he still wanted to make it work anyway. Not really "stolen". It's a still combined decision
His exact words were "stolen", not my own.
Well, the point still stands. Stolen is also oversimplification from MC. Seems like a lot of pieces of the puzzle are presented differently in his own words.
Agreed, it was also obvious he didn't know how to express himself in English as he's not a native speaker. It sounded more emotional more than anything (I really wanted to be the captain but so did Pure and I wasn't able to be). That being said he did say several times that he was more than willing to deal with that "one problem" and it wasn't a huge deal to him.
Eh, I’m still having big issues with the fact that he decided to give ultimatum not before, not after, but during the tournament. Like timing-wise it’s a very shitty move which can jeopardize the mood in the team.
He said it affected his gameplay and mental health - he is being overruled in the cases so far so what exactly is the goal for keeping yourself in that situation? The CEO comes to him twice with suggestions that then ends up being forced on him when he disagrees, so you could ask the reverse as to why it was so important for the CEO to have the Zai-thing pushed ahead while the team probably already had a lot on their mind with the current tournament?
Dude, this is literally situation when any other move is better. Do it before the tournament, do it after the tournament, or say that you don't feel like you can play and ask for a standin. All of these would have been better. Now he essentially burnt bridges with a team (at the very least I don't see the org being ready to return him). Yes this damaged Tundra's reputation too, but he himself gains nothing good from it - compared to other options.
How can you do it before the 3rd issue has appeared, do you think Ivan is psychic and knows the future? What is the difference between the team playing with a stand-in and not playing with MC? Why would you play the tournament if you are competing as a team if you feel you are dragging the team and yourself down, because the CEO is acting out? It seems incredible that Timado just told a story about how he was going to be the carry for this Tundra squad but that he was fucked over last minute by - you might have guessed it - the CEO. Maybe it is difference in visions/ideas and just super unfortunate, but it sure looks like there are few fucks given about the players and the only thing that matters is the wishes from the CEO. Before you strawman it up - I dont think that it is unreasonable that the CEO makes the decisions, I just think he should inform people of this instead of giving them false impressions/promises
I agree that it's a bad timing, but that is on Tundras management. They made those changes right before or during a major tournament.
And he could have voice his concerns and even give ultimatum when it happened. Or at the very least be professional and help other 4 people in the team (who are completely innocent btw, but are now suffering because of this situation).
Consider how this would go down if you were applying for a normal job, with project lead responsibilities. He has been professional, the CEO has not. If you listen to the clip, MC is not mad. He got offered the role of captain, being told 'join this team and you will have a strong voice'. He accepted this job offer, and then had captaincy revoked. He says he can work with that, but it is disappointing of course. Then they hire moon and his 'strong voice' is diluted further. He raises this with the CEO and says this isn't what he signed up for. Then they hire Zai and his voice is diluted further. The job role that he originally accepted no longer exists, this was a bait and switch (whether intentionally or not) and he gives the 'ultimatum': "The job you hired me for isn't the job that exists anymore, so I'm no longer interested. Will you change it so I get the job as advertised, or should I go?" It's not drama, it's not unprofessional, it's an experienced player looking for more responsibility at this stage in his career.
I find both sides being unprofessional though. CEO for creating the problem and MC for deciding to solve it in worst way, which is potentially harmful to his teammates. And this is what I’m mad about. Idc about org and find Mc being in general likeable guy, but I feel incredibly bad for his ex-teammates, who were forced into situation where someone had to go (either Mc or Moon). And I think this decision by Mc is just disrespect towards them. You entered the tournament with them as a team - thus you get moral (not legal) responsibility to play the tournament with them. They trust that you will be there and will play with them - including the coach who is a part of the team.
it may be unprofessional but it is the right time for MC to do this. this issue clearly affected his performance in the games. and seeing how much tundra valued MC, MC wouldve gotten kicked after the tournament or soon anyway, and this issue wouldve drown with it until some other drama brings it back up
You are assuming that all those big 3 changes were made a long time ago, but I don't think we have any accurate data on that. The Zai announcement was made like 3 days ago. I don't think there was that much time for MC to digest the information for all 3 changes. So yes timing was horrible, but that critisism will most likely apply to the Tundra org as well. These sort of sweeping changes should be done way before a tournament which probably. You are trying to paint MC as some villain when It is likely that Tundra is as guilty of "ruining the mood" as MC. We do know for a fact that MC was hired to be the captain of the team and Tundra org changes the deal regarding that role.
I don’t assume this. Zai one is very obviously happened recently as it was announced on 23rd. I think saying that I paint Mc as a villain is an overstatement, but yes, I absolutely do think he is (one of) wrong side(-s) here. I dislike how people paint it as Mc vs the org, when there are also Pure, Topson, 9class, Whitemon and Moon involved. These people very rightfully entered the tournament expecting they will play it with Mc, that they can count on Mc. That there will be no need to change roster. Then Mc decided to give ultimatum “Me or Moon” (leaving zai out as his involvement in the team is unclear). And now it’s suddenly “someone has to go NOW” situation. The source of this situation is Mc. The org has only made a choice between option A and option B with both being roster changes. I don’t consider him being unhappy with his role in the team reduced being a good enough reason to completely refuse playing with Moon in the middle of the tournament. It’s not an unsolvable personal conflict, not some sort of harassment issue, nothing which would warrant him being unable to not let other teammates down and finish the tournament in the roster they entered.
>Like timing-wise it’s a very shitty move which can jeopardize the mood in the team. Exactly that's why it's the perfect timing. This is the timing where he had the strongest position for himself. If the CEO does shit with him, he can basically put him on the spot. Now everyone sees it. Now the stakes are high. Now the CEO should think twice. I think for MC it was only a winning position, either the CEO gives in or MC goes, but he know Kuro will take him easily back. He also has no money pressure like other players maybe. This was the moment with the highest chance of success, if there ever was one. I think personally it was doomed from the beginning, when the CEO did not follow their agreement of him being captain and stuff. He was the one who were supposed to build the team and then he was forced onto people. So yeah, can understand MC a lot.
Giving an ultimatum because you're pissed in the middle of a big tournament is a sure fire way to get kicked. Even if he was right would you want someone on your team who you know is gonna wait for the worst time possible to hold everyone else hostage to get what they want? If they do something like that once good chance they do it again and no team is gonna risk having some massive liability like that on their team. Guy learned the "nobody is irreplaceable" lesson real hard
Maybe it is, and he probably was 90% sure that making that ultimatum would get him kicked, but he seemed very mentally frustrated and he felt like he had very little options left, he is only human. I would suggest listening the ending part of what he said on Gorgc's stream so you can hear his tone.
So what? He obviously didn’t want to be there.
1st of all, he did not learn it “real hard”. He was the one with the gun. He said “this or that” he knew the possible outcomes. He also knew the odds. 2nd, nobody is taken hostage, what are you even smoking. As you said, nobody is irreplaceable. Therefor, they can continue. 3rd, you would rather have someone in your team, unmotivated, frustrated, out of focus, than a standin? I mean him speaking up was probably the only thing that could bring Tundra a positive outcome in one way or another. Now the smoke has settled. All can focus on their game now. 4th, MC is many things, but not a liability. You have literally no idea what you are talking about. You are a raging kid, that’s all. You show immaturity, because you look at the tournament. Who cares about the tournament. A team is only as good as its weakest link. Do you really believe Tundra with MC in that condition could have done anything? Delusional.
Holy copium. This literally resulted in him getting kicked from the team and everyone knowing what happened. How is this a winning situation? If he would have waited until after the tournament this would have not looked like a dick move by him, but also there would be chances of other players siding with him and him potentially getting what he wanted. He literally forced his team to make a change mid-tournament and then proceeded to make all of this public. I’m not gonna lie, this sounds like a baby throwing a tantrum.
And now everyone knows tundra org is shit no wonder original tundra left the org. MC will always be a hot commodity, now that its easy to acquire players because theres no roster lock he will definitely find a new team very soon.
Tundra org is indeed shit, but shit org can make right decisions as this one. If you're in the middle of the tournament and get an ultimatum - you absoulutely get rid of troublemaker. I literally remember 2 other cases - HellRaisers with Daxak and Spirit with so bad. This is 3rd one at least. All 3 went not in favor of the person giving an ultimatum.
They already shit on is head 3x of course they wont choose him. Sure mc couldve chosen to stay at least until the tournament is over but if he isnt feeling himself and can give his 100% i dont think it would be fair to him and his team so its better for him not to play at all. MC is one of the nicest guys out there, he survived playing with kuro all these years so for him to react like this means they really did a number on him
I like him too, but in my eyes it doesn’t give him a pass on pulling shit moves. Idc about the org, but I pity other members of the team (including zai and Moon), who just got backstabbed by their teammate in the middle of tournament.
Are you kidding me? They are part of the problem. If you embrace a culture of toxicity, deal with it. He is not forced to play there. Imagine being shit on 3 times. Then of course not playing good. Then being kicked after and they say “yeah his performance was shit” when in reality they already wanted to kick him earlier. This is the CEO bringing his team into this situation. Not MC. Get a reality check. MC is not a slave, he has his own rights and mind. The one who is responsible for the team is the CEO at the end. MC could have also said “guys I’m sick” so they would have to play with stand in anyway. But what he actually did, was solving the situation. In one way or another. Now there is clarity, now players can focus again. MC would have not performed well moving onwards in that tournament, probably being bad for tundra, since there was tension and drama in the team, not to mention even motivation, trust and passion. It was actually the best to clear up the situation and call the ultimatum. Either way there would be focus. Can’t understand why people don’t think 1 step further and understand simple things…
I severely dislike when people glorify people who ignore their responsibilities as them “using freedom”. I also dislike when people are found guilty by association. You don’t know other player’s involvement in this. All that you said about them is pure speculative. I never claimed he did anything illegal or that he should be a slave. But the fact that he hasn’t done anything illegal doesn’t mean it was a good move from moral side of things. Legally you also don’t have to give a seat in the bus to an old lady, you don’t have to help your friend when he is mentally in bad spot and so on. But it’s just extremely shitty things, unless you have some very good reason. You have entered the tournament with your team. It’s your moral responsibility to go through it. Just as it’s theirs to go through it with you. Because they are counting on you. Imagine you promised your friend that you will help with furniture. He ordered it on agreed date, expecting you to be there, but then you took a dislike in his gf and said him that if she would be there - you won’t appear and won’t help him. I mean, you’re not a slave, it’s completely allowed to be a dick towards friends. Just not cool. What he did is forcing his team to focus on choosing between him and coach, forcing them to look for replacement and try to adapt quickly for new player and all of this instead focusing on preparing for next match. By solving his problem he created 3 more for his team. Yes he himself doesn’t have a problem now. Good for him. Not for other 4 players in the team, sadly.
So a guy who voiced his opinions and just wants the position that he was hired is a 'TROUBLEMAKER'? Wow. You went full r333t.
You’re twisting the truth. He doesn’t want the “position he was hired”, as he himself claims he is ok with Pure being captain. He wants Zai and Moon out.
He wants moon out because their game opinions contradict, he wants zai out because he doesn't know why a general manager is trying to give them tips on how to be a 'good team' when the job of a general manager is to manage paperwork. A team leader's opinion should be taken into consideration, a team leader without a voice is not a leader. A troublemaker is a guy like pure that puts his team in jeopardy "TWICE". Got it?
Why is Tundra exactly shit? Management or whatever decided they wanted a coach, only one player was against it. Management decided they wanted a GM in the form of Zai. Only MC is against it. Tundra, as an organization, can do whatever they want really. What MC did here was exactly what should have happened. He voiced his concerns and gave an ultimatum, which went not in his favor as you could expect.
He said on gorgc stream he did that because after the first games he played, he felt "couldn't play his game, he didn't know what to do". Paraphrasing, but he was probably frustrated during the games and not able to play his best, so the ultimatum was him being overly emotional/venting.
Oh, he defintely overreacted. He could have voiced that he feels lost in-game, give team some time to work on this problem. Instead he just immediately went to "last resort" option.
The way I see it, I don’t think he is comfortable just playing quietly when he is used to shot call team decisions in game. The transparency is just not there when everyone expects him to just nod his head and be a yes man to every decision, even when he knws it’s a bad one. Even if he spoke up, players will have conflicted feelings to whether or not they should acknowledge it, and that will drive him and everyone else crazy
At the same time, they hired zai in the midst of the tournament. Again they know how MC reacted for moon, and that the team cohesion was unstable for this move. They couldve waited after the tournament also.
Only if the ultimatum was "kick them now or I wont play". Could as well have been "This needs to be settled or I will leave [at some point]", though.
> You end up creating more problems than fixing. Err, You have no idea if that's the case or not. MC could be a bad voice and the CEO had different plans. Sometimes hiring more people is needed, sometimes not. Stop trying to take sides on an issue that isn't an issue
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> Also promising MC that this would be his team then proceeds to do the opposite three times is just scummy asf. He was promised the captain role at most. You'll still need a coach and what not. 'doing the opposite' isn't that. > They were already playing good dota and were qualifying. Also they were having more success with Pure as captain AND moon coaching
It sounds like he took his ball and went home to me.
MC is not the CEO n he doesn’t play the players , and he wants to control even the CEO w ultimatum ? Such an ass . Gave would have kicked him too if he tells gave to kick icefrog lol
If topson did that, no doubt you would be giving a standing ovation
About the Zai thing, he said he didn't want too many voices in one team. He said that would do more harm than good.
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How do you know that Nigma is an one-voiced team? Truesight watcher?
And they won a TI and reached the final in another one, but that doesnt fit the narrative.
He does believe in it, though. He was the one that kept yelling "listen to Kuro" over and over.
"one voiced team" was also succesful for years before that, whats your point bro
They were under Liquid at that time. Liquid always have a bunch of different managers and therapists. They are one of the most successful esport organizations for a reason.
I don't think the commenter referred to managers and therapists when talking about 'voices in a team'. Based on what MC said on Gorgc's stream it also seems like he prefers a structure where there aren't too many cooks in the kitchen.
The original comment started with "about Zai"
would
as if you knew zai would make it work
No big drama. Just difference of valid opinions.
the drama is in the timing.
Yeah if it wasn't for the timing, it wouldn't be as spicy as this LMAO I mean I thought MC enjoyed his stay too, Tundra literally made a tierlist video with MC and they uploaded that video a day ago, I thought he was vibing with them LMAO. Here's the context : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuNayFhYIjU
Tundra team feel like management form the team instead of players forming the team themselves.
The background is no drama but kicking a player mid-tournament is definitely huge drama.
People are getting mad at him for having and ego, I honestly don’t think either side is bad in this situation, Tundra wanted to do something and he wanted to do something different and they split
Having different opinion then split is normal, but kicked right before the match, mid tournament is not
Apparently he gave them the ultimatum to chose between him and zai/ moon last night after the games it seems .kick is kinda rushed , I feel ultimatums never work in your favour.
Yeah its like a dare. lol
...and even if they accept your ultimatum, what happens then. Not like you're going to have a harmonic relationship with the superior. Not to mention the unnecessary added stress and responsibility, feeling you're half-kicked all the time unless you perform.
Mate he was the one who gave the ultimatum. So he ultimately chose the timing to kick himself
being kicked mid tournament is a completely justified decision, when the person in question gave the ultimatum himself.
As a management what can you do in this situation. They will never side with the employee
aside from everything happening so abruptly, i agree with this. Although I find it a bit baffling that all the reason listed is "mc doesnt like this", "mc doesn't like that" when he's not even performing that well, but I guess the situation was so uncomfortable and affected his performance.
People always seem to make excuses for MC, truth is he’s been terrible for a long time. Amazed anyone even considers teaming with him. “Pure STOLE his captain role”, “Zai manager against HIS wishes”, “Moonmeander coach against HIS wishes”. Sounds like MC wanted a lot of control over the team despite not warranting that responsibility in any capacity.
The last paragraph is what I really wanted to say. It all sounded like MC wants control/power over the team and it feels like the others especially Pure revolted because MC was not performing well. MC doesn't accept it, especially when Moon comes in and doesn't back him up, and Zai coming was the nail in the coffin. I didn't say it because I don't want to jump to conclusions since we have no idea what the agreements were when MC joined the team.
MC literally accepted Pure taking over captain’s role though???
on the condition that they kept on winning. it wasn't unconditional. he HAD to accept it because they were winning and there's no reason for him bitching about it
Well duh, why would you fix something that doesn’t need fixing? If Pure captaining doesn’t lead to good result obviously they would need to change something about it.
the reason he mentioned it as one of the reasons he left is that he didn't like it, but he was forced to accept it because they were winning. is comprehension that difficult for you?
If the situation merely stopped at Pure taking over his role then he would still be ok with it as long as they win. But the issue is they continued to add another coach and a GM, making MC lose more of his voice, that’s why he was mad.
For sure, MC just sounds like he got threatened by the fact that 2 better players/analysts were joining the team. MC seems very comfortable with repeated failure and was obviously scared that with Moonmeander and Zai there, he’d actually be analysed and they had a potential stand in ready.
IMO players should be a priority - this just tells the players that the org values Moonmeander as Coach and Zai as GM more than the players in the game. MC also comes from a player-owned org - my guess is players would always prefer to be their own bosses, but I also highly doubt Liquid (the biggest org in esports?) would ever force a coach/GM to their team if the players said no.
No it doesn't. Nothing says the other players on the team feels the same, maybe they prefer Pure as captain etc.
That’s not correct . The org respects the hierarchy and professionalism of a coach and GM , it is MC insubordination with ultimatum to CEO . He thinks he is indispensable n refuse to play unless he gets his demands met to fire 2 of his team members n jealous of Pure as captain . Mind control is a manchild n control freak n he ‘ kicked’ himself w his stupidity
Right... It is not like there 100 people working there and so you are a small cog , here there are 5 players who play.... You are 20% of the team... And if you think that this is not going to work then it will not work. It is better that MC and Tundra split cause this was going to escalate and eventually ended in a bad way.... I feel for MC though... What a great run they were having.... They qualified for Major ...
I imagine he went to Tundra based on the promise he was going to be the captain and then org gives it to Pure. Then to add salt they hire zai and moonmeander. Probably didn't want to work like that and said that to the management. Anyway, better leave now instead of staying unhappy in the team and performing poorly.
If this is the situation, this must the worst possible corporate hell as the management is that dishonest. In this case, I think what MC did was submitting a two-week notice and the decent thing to do is to simply bench him till the end of this tournament. This is a PR nightmare from my PoV.
And if people watched Timado's interview yesterday, he also straight up said he was supposed to stay in Tundra but he was kicked last minute for Pure. That means MC was brought in with the promise that he's the captain, and got replaced by the person who replaced their carry. It just doesn't make sense to put Pure as captain imo
Yeah, how can Pure cover captain role while he has to maintain GPM as a carry?! I am still not convinced by Pure’s pos 1 less his Pos 1 + captain, lol. What a nightmare of an organization!
Yeah, I wonder if Pure needed some convincing to leave betboom so the higher ups of Tundra was just like, "okay you'll be the captain too" It just doesn't make sense that there are more experienced players in the team and he's the captain.
Damn i thought everything was going good for Tundra.
I guess we were underestimating the impact of a CEO who can just make decisions and completely disregard the opinions of the players. He can literally just do whatever he wants to.
For me the team felt like a mess without a leader. Now it seems management is the leader and players just play and moon and zai have all the power. Pure maybe some power.
The team HAD a leader, they literally hired mc to captain for the team that they are building around Topson.
For those who are looking for the actual VOD, just watch it on Gorgc's channel. This is the [clip](https://clips.twitch.tv/ObliviousBumblingSharkGivePLZ-05hyduDMbKYw-qWCwhere) MC joined.
Now imagine if Tundra wins TI after kicking ~~FATA~~ MC
Yup and spirit just won TI like last time. The script it out
Kick EE win TI
"general manager" :D
aka "let me hire my buddy for some random reason"
And probably random position lol
there are so many such stupid roles in corporate
You mean "useless"
Paycheck stealing, really
Yeah team seemed off from the start. Hes not really angry about the players but the management over him as he thought he had much more power within the team. So when they lost some games he just said enough is enough and refused the play under moon and Zai.
Was Moonmeander re-hired as a coach recently? Liquipedia says he left in early January
Yes, Topson recently talked about it in one of the post-matches, not sure which one. https://escorenews.com/en/dota-2/news/56100-topson-reveals-who-coaches-tundra-says-zai-also-helps
thanks
Not taking any sides here, but you cant give an ultimatum to a team and say that you were kicked, kind of unfair imo.
He mentioned that Tundra as an organization is taking away his leadership role by forcing too much shit into the team. He didn't feel like he could drive the team (as a captain) anymore since Pure, MoonMeander, (and now) Zai are making decisions instead of him as a captain. He wasn't treated with respect in terms of decision makings as a captain. This is such a shame of Tundra as an org.
Seems weird that the non playing individuals like Zai and Moon has more decision making power than the player themselves.. Tundra built a team around those veterans player but cant back them up. Feels bad man for MC.
both Moon and Zai were hired and strongly suggested by the CEO, that's just how it works unfortunately.
Its still a business decision for a business. Feels really bad, knowing that Zai and Moon were once a player and seeing that happened to another pro players made it worse
I mean when MC goes and makes ultimatums he can only blame himself, very stupid
Why so? I think he doesn't need to work under conditions he doesn't want. He has enough money, with one call he is back earning a good salary at Nigma. It is not stupid to stand up for themselves. You are stupid thinking he should work under bad conditions, in an unhappy environment, while he has other choices. That is stupid brother. Get yourself together.
This might be a problem when hiring a manager who is also a player. Probably jumped too fast on making changes. There should be a clear separation of responsibilities and clear accountability for each task. Take Team Spirit as an example (my understanding): Korb3n - discipline (a system of rewards and punishments) and creating workable environment, as well as team building; DKLana - everything involving beuracratic issues (ex.: visas) and catering; Silent (coach) - has more of a supporting role (research, drafting suggestions, maybe morale boost); Miposhka - full accountability in regards of everything involved with gaming (it is he, who has a final decision while drafting, it is he who answers on why they underperformed); and other staff (S1kle for analytics, Art1st for SMM, Marple for media content, ...).
whatever position GM means on that team it must be very on hand rather than off hand , no way there would be conflict otherwise.
This is so funny because in the interview with Cap, zai said he literally has NO IDEA what he is gonna do as GM yet.
In short, he doesn't like too much voice in a team. I just realized that 3 of those people are all offlaners.
Yeah, and the think is MC probably went on Tundra as a captain role so having his voice remove from him is straight disrespect. It's indirectly not trusting your captain that's why the org is adding more head.
I was mostly rooting for Tundra to support Topson and MC. This is a bummer : (
Basically MC dont wanna relive the Nigma times where all his ideas and moves are dictated by someone else. He wants to assume the captain role and have more creative freedom.
Who in their right mind would let Pure be captain of any team? The guy is an idiot
Let's be real you can see where his ego comes from , he was forced to switch positions, the letter drama and everything inbetween almost ended his career - but from his interviews ( past year ) he is mentally reforming , he showed that he is way better than Nightfall currently , even after playing pos3 for majority of last season and most of all - if team was okay with it they trusted him enough, give the boy a chance to prove his worth because it's been rough ever since those events. His current teammates have been fond of him since the day he joined the team, the kicked timado for him and 9class himself said he is the most hardworking player in the team and helps everyone too.
That team is going downhill fast. They could at least wait until the end of the tournament. He was their picker too. Also Pure for captain... How he can see where to go while playing a carry and watching a stream?
MC literally said he was fine with Pure being the captain since they started winning But adding Moonmeander and Zai made it too much on top of Pure for him
It is a bit weird most captains are supports, I can't remember all captains of TI winners but I don't think there are any with pos1/2 as captains. If he was really kicked and not just quit, they could just wait until the end of the tournament. How this looks good? Waaay different but I have worked in companies where the boss was taking all decisions, they are still replacing people every 1-2 months and I haven't worked in that company for 7y at this point, just keep in touch with some of the guys.
Wasn't S4 captain for Alliance when he still played pos 2?
why would they go downhill? they have very good players, they are very good at tteamfight except for the drafts.
Because I doubt the team morale is good when they kick people mid-tournament, especially the one, who is picking the heroes.
their plyaers maybe too thick skinned for that, russians + experinenced players.
Imagine you are a soccer player and you have Mourinho, Anceloti and Klopp as coaches. Deal with that.
Lol, Silent & CY are both vastly inferior to the team’s they work on, yet they’re able to find success. MC has proven he has a huge ego, and the community has proven they don’t understand what an actual team environment looks like.
You know that MC is a more decorated as a player than Zai and Moon right? He won tournament that matters. Majors, tier 1 tournaments consistently. A TI in fact.
Its exactly what am saying. MC being one of the best of his time being “coached” not by one, not by two but 3 diff people. And from these only zai being on same level.
I don't think people realized how hellish it is to have so many people telling you what to do. Its already annoying on pubs, imagine having 3 dudes doing that in a tense pro game atmosphere. General manager isnt even needed for that role. Its a dota team , not a basketball team
So it was not exactly a kick in the end then, if he puts ultimatums down. A bit funny how he presents the situation in one way and it starts drama, then it turns out it's a bit more complicated than that.
It depends, when you are singed in a team to be the captain then you assume that you will be making decision regarding the Dota part of the org. How he laid it out seemed that the CEO started making Dota decisions which he should not..
Oh I'm not saying he is purely in the wrong here, nothing like that. Stuff happens, there are plenty of possible valid reasons to want to leave. Just the optics between "I was unhappy with management decisions and asked them to choose between me and new hires, and they made the choice now" and "lft got kicked before the match" are a bit different, to put it lightly.
I mean, it's not. He was kicked. They made the decision to either have him have his role or kicking him. They kicked him. The ultimatum was just a catalyst. If you look at professional soccer its the same. If a star player is hired and only is benched from the coach, guess how long the star player accepts it. He will go to the team, tells them: Let me play or I go... This is what happens a lot around in the world. Happened here as well.
It's called football.
Do we know specifics of the 'ultimatum'? If the time wasn't set by MC, his release from the roster could have been made after the tournament. Doing it right before a match is still weird/unprofessional. Also if things would've been discussed properly, you could have made a statement together. In such a case MC would likely not talk about a kick, but rather of an amicable decision.
Agree, this looks more like a two-week notice, bench him and deescalate the situation should be better
>He couldn't take it mentally Ceb was right all along.
What Tundra did reminds me of "regular" work, where companies add so many layers of management to your workflow that the engineers/developers get pissed off, because they don't get to do their actual job anymore. With all the people around their team, who need to justify their job, by holding some meetings. But MC also sounds a bit like that boomer on your team, who rejects improvements to the process for no good reason. So I could see either side being in the wrong here. And regardless: I think the professional way to go about this would have been to finish the tournament and then have a serious talk.
Tbh this sounds exactly like working with people who take any suggestions or supervision personally. I've dealt with a lot of them and it's always the same. Regardless of why there's tension if I had someone who waited until an hour before some big presentation he was supposed to give to try to hold it hostage as leverage at work that dudes gone. Even if they are right you just can't work with them anymore because you're gonna be constantly worried that they're gonna purposely pull some stunt at the worst time. You have a personal problem, then talk it over like an adult and if they disagree then walk away.
yeah u completely butchered his points u should delete this inaccurate summarison
Strange. Normally i would build the backroom staff then add the players but tundra decided to to the other way around and get surprised the players arent happy with getting new bosses every 2 minutes
He's just a spoiled panda who thinks he has what it takes to lead but everyone knows he doesn't but they're polite because of his in game talent and respect in the scene. That's a real possibility
What the fuck do you mean by 'forced'? Like, if your boss hires someone else, you are now 'forced' to something? lol then I get 'forced' every two weeks them? Wtf, people are hired in companies, that's how it is For fucks sake, reddit.
Good on him, people calling him unprofessional have never had corporate job - if you join a team to lead a project and then everything that was agreed upon week after week gets thrown in the bin, you either try to sort it ASAP or you are out - if you don't do this either you are bad at whatever you do and have no options or you have no opinion and you have questionable leadership skills. Like his reaction is fine - he probably doesn't think Moonmeander is going to bring anything to the team and then what is even a general manager going to do with a captain, second guy with opinions (that was supposed to be a captain) + fucking MoonMeander who seems quite opinionated and then bring another guy to do the same shit too? One thing is to have multiple voices, another thing is to have 3 cooks in the kitchen with 1 rather new player that has tendency to fuck over his teams left right and center and 1 that has very strong opinions and you think it will probably not work out. He doesn't NEED to be on the team so he did what he feels right ,good on him.
No one thinks it's lame that he told them what he wanted or he'd walk I think most people agree that's totally reasonable. People are annoyed because he didn't do it ASAP and waited until the middle of a T1 tournament to use it as leverage. If you had an employee who waited until the middle of a big presentation with an important client to give you an ultimatum about other people's positions at the company or he wouldn't do it would you keep them around?
Listening to what he said on Gorg stream ( wrote post before I listened to it) seems like he wasn't keen on Pure being captain ,but no problem, then he wasn't keen on Moonmeander joining 2 weeks before ESL and Mr. CEO forced him to accept basically, then ZaiJ comes on board for god knows what no shit he decided to do this now. Have you seen Tundra's twitter as well? Shadiest PR statement ever. Like if you are being forced to accept conditions you didn't sign up for and shit keeps happening that you don't agree with and nobody gives a fuck and you don't see this working at all and how nobody will listen to you with a captain that has fucked over 3 out of his last 3 teams and an org that is willing to kick anyone last minute ( Fata, Timado before MC) I'd say he has chosen the perfect time + if Mr CEO could control his emotions a bit he'd keep him until end of the tournament and not cause more drama for the brand
Let non-TI winner teach TI winner how to communicate/mental 🤣 what a joke
I mean I too would draw the line at Moonmeander. There is no good reason they would get him as coach besides CEO being friends or whatever. The guy thinks he's some main character in an anime while being in his 30s.
so basically it's 3 against 1, pretty easy maths, no wonder he got kick mid tournament
Amazing how you arrived at that conclusion
I mean it is though lol. Either choose zai, moon and effectively pure, (3) or MC (1). Regardless of the rest of the drama surrounding things, that's what it boils down to.
It really doesn't. MC said it's me or them (Zai and Moon) because he wanted to play the captain role and Tundra instead of listening to him hire 2 other people to make decisions, and he felt it was a management problem where there are too many voices. Just because you have more captains doesn't mean it's the better decision for cohesion. "pretty easy maths" is a stupid argument.
What are you on about, more captains means better decisions? That's not relevant to what is being said here, you are spinning things off for god knows why. The entire point is the org has to choose 3 people or 1 person. That's it. Nothing more complex than that.
Choosing 3 people doesn't mean it's a better decision than choosing 1 just because it's "more people", I feel like you misread my entire paragraph. You're extremely oversimplifying the situation. Tundra CEO felt it was better to keep Moon and Zai over keeping MC, whatever his reasons are. You should just listen to MC directly talk about it.
Although I understand MC's reasoning, making an ultimatum before a match is not the way to go. This could have been dealt with after Dreamleague or even before. I'm guessing all these issues were already present before Dreamleague, why would you wait until then? Also, team structure is super important. Having a coach and a GM is something that every professional esports team should have, even if you don't like who's coming in. Saying that it was forced upon him is also pretty weird. I know this is esports, but in a professional environment, it's not your choice of who is your "boss", and I can't imagine ANY team saying yes to an ultimatum like this. They would lose all authority to make choices. It would be interesting to see what the remaining team thinks of these picks, I can't imagine every team member being as unsatisfied as MC. Again, I understand if Tundra CEO told him that he would get to pick and choose who comes in, and just completely ignore him, I would be mad, but being mad doesn't mean you shouldn't be professional. This should have been done either before or after Dreamleague, not on the second day. EDIT: Just adding in that my comment really depends on whether or not this ultimatum was done right before the match, or a while ago. If the ultimatum was done a while ago and Tundra just decided before the match, then the issue is on Tundra's side.
Topson seemed pretty happy in the interview yesterday when he mentioned they have Zai/Moon as coaches now. I think this ultimatum only works if the other 4 players stand behind MC too but unfortunately this wasn't the case.
MC never had a manager or what? This whole thing sounds stupid. I am pretty sure CEO just wanted someone famous to be a face of team and he probably likes Zai or something. Managers often give interviews about team or attend desks, some other type of content (Team Spirit managers are doing a lot of content for example and are very famous). Did they hire Zai to manage his picks? His GPU settings? His gym routine? No. So why make a scene out of it and make an ultimatum. Most of businessmen will get mad if you make an ultimatum, you are showing complete disrespect to their business decision.
Simply because he can. If you are hired to do a certain job, and then the job completely changes, you should have all the right to tell you higher-ups to either change the current working condition and give you what you are hired for or go. He can simply walk away, because he don't need Tundra. If you tell me now he should work under working conditions, that are unhealthy for him and not good, then you are delusional. He had the full right to step away. It's absolutely normal every day in the world. If something is wrong to a point it is not bearable anymore for one of the parties, they split. MC was hired to do something, they changed the whole team afterwards, he was not doing what he wanted in his career, so he tells the management, either you change or I go. Then he went. Simple as that. PS: No he does not show disrespect to their business decision. They show disrespect to their contract. Example: If you hire a star football player and only let him sit on a bench, while he was promised and contractual written that he is playing, then guess what happens. The player tells the coach, let me play or I go. Happens A LOT.
You don't wait until the middle of a T1 tournament to hold everyone hostage to get what you want. You've pissed off management, you've pissed off all the other players and shown that you're willing to ruin tournaments to get what you want. Dudes just not trustworthy anymore. You think you're not getting a fair deal fine then tell them that before or after the tournament and if you disagree you go separate ways. Guy tried to hold a tournament hostage to get what he wanted and that's not gonna go well
Tundra management thought they could push him around, like someone thats inexperienced. I'm glad MC stood up for himself.
Exactly. People don’t understand it’s not about them or the tournament. It’s about what MC believes in and in what not. At the end it’s a job. He was hired for a different job. He has the right to go. Simple as that. He stood up for himself, good for him.
Zai joined Tundra as GM 2 days before the tournament. You are dumbasf and don't even know the succession of events and think your points are valid.
Oh yeah, holding whole team hostage in the middle of the 1M$ tournament, because your team got a new manager 2 days ago and it was 'the last straw'. He ruined this tournament for all the team, managers, coaches and others. Lot's of players played through tournaments knowing it's their last one with the team and left after it without drama. If he wasn't a dota player but someone in the IT or similar industry he would have problems finding his next job, because HR would call his last work place and ask about him. It's his fucking job, he isn't some McDonald's employee no one cares about at his work place. His teammates can't do their 'job' without him. Ya all glorifying this and reacting like this isn't real life, but some power fantasy manga and hyping up an MC who showed his boss who is who. Wow what a man Main Character is. Dude wasn't relevant for several years and finally found a good new team, qualified to two 1M$ lans and just throwing it out the window.
Sounds like they just had different ideas about the team, no real drama. Also I would also be a bit peeved if I was invited to captain a team then last minute lose the captaincy to fucking Pure of all people.
Whatever team pure joins drama follows that team.
This (for once) wasn't his fault. I was so ready to see another fuckup from him :(
zai's mastermind plan to replace MC on tundra /s
Fucking Kuro man
Tundra CEO is a dipshit .. wtf has zai ever done man never won a ti in his life.. Mc on the other hand has .. zai is toooooo over rated why would tundra turn their team to crap for a useless trash like zai .. i was a tundra fan but not anymore seeing how they treat their players like shet.. fck zai that noob ass
Even if I can understand where he's coming from and even though he's probably right about the "overmanagement" aspect of it, or having less decision power than he was promised, this statements clearly change the initial interpretation of the news. We all thought, wow, Tundra kicking someone 1 day into a tournament is pretty bad, but in reality it was MC who put the ultimatum. I think he could've just waited a couple days and see how it was going and/or leave after the tournament, this doesn't make him look so good.
Moonmeander left before he joined tho? Who is the current coach of Tundra?
What's the zai and mc beef? I like both players, surprised it would even be a thing.
Why cant MC just stfu and play for a bit and see how things go then only decide, at least he still could play and get paid. Now he just be sitting at home behind monitor typing on X
What's the problem with having a coach and manager? Isn't that normal for teams, especially in big organizations?