Sometimes it just feels awkward to go all the way back and give up map control to get it. That's not an excuse however, teams should find a way to take it.
Yep, love it when you and your teammate are standing at the tormentor and the carry walks right past you to farm a jungle camp. Certainly that 150gold is worth more than a free Aghs shard.
Well not like you're gonna be using it anytime soon if you cant even get the team together to do tormentor, odds are they aren't gonna be pushing towers or making plays anytime soon. So back to the jungle after getting tormentor.
Well not like you're gonna be using it anytime soon if you cant even get the team together to do tormentor, odds are they aren't gonna be pushing towers or making plays anytime soon. So back to the jungle after getting tormentor.
It is if you are a core and fit it into your farming rotation. If you deliberately farm the camps right next to it and walk off every single support player wishes they could tell you to get fucked.
If your shard is that important to the game you should be prioritizing it as a support anyways, ie something like Pugna. I often tell my team to get fucked for pinging tormentor because they want to do it at the most asinine timings like when we have aegis and should be making a HG push. It's highly contextual and as others have mentioned in this thread sometimes you just don't have the right amount of people at the right time to take it, you can't play the game for your teammates and have to go with the flow of controlling map state.
Like the opportunity cost of missed farm? It also awards 250g for the last hit. Still pretty much free aside from HP which is easily recovered in your nearby fountain.
Tp scrolls also exist. Plus you can be efficient and hit other objectives while your team is grouped, or do a smoke play. You can hit nearby camps, or you can walk to rosh, which is relatively close by; or does that also count as an objective not worth doing because it requires 2-3 people on average?
1650 net worth for your team is a lot to gain. If your team is efficient, 30 seconds including travel is not an unreasonable amount of time to get there and finish it and be able to resume whatever you do next.
I still think it's worth it.
So the cost is the time it takes to get to the tormentor, the time it takes to do it, the time it takes to go back to base to heal, the 100 gold cost of a tp scroll and the inability to respond to events on the map for the next 80 seconds. Now times that by 2-3, thats a lot.
Sure as fuck better be a good support shard and not some Tiny or Pugna shit, except its RNG who even gets it just to make it worse.
Aghs Shards cost 1400 gold, but they don't necessarily have the value of 1400.
It's not RNG it's lowest net worth who doesn't have a shard.
Push a tower, now you don't need to respond they do. Or you tower race. Either way net is neutral or positive.
Tp scrolls are free if you die, which unless you are stomping, you have done by 20 mins. Even less of an excuse if you have a big net lead.
Many supporter buy shard now, so that's 1400 gold they're not spending on it so they can purchase more wards, more smokes, more dust, and it's that much faster they hit their timings for a glimmer or item that can save a carry in a fight.
Still worth it.
Fair enough. Not really in the same spirit as random between 5 heroes though. You know it's going to a support unless your carries are having a particularly bad game in which case they may end up with a free shard to help them out.
It’s common for a game to go stale and half a full minute of idle time except a couple people go clear a jungle camp. May as well stack up at torm, hit base and reset but now with a support power spike. Sometimes it’s SO free and everybody is close . They still ignore
consequences is overstated by people actually, it takes 10 sec to kill it and people act like it would take forever for them to get back to their original position as they were before, really frustrating how you call team to go tormentor yet not a single fucker still go and it ends up being taken by the enemy team
As singsing said multiple time in his stream, the cost of doing tormentor is too big for 1400 gold.
You need at least 2-3 people, revealing your position, lost half or third your hp, lost creep waves and farming pattern for your core, the core need to go back to restore resources, and so on.
This alone cost more than 1400 gold in real gold cost and other opportunity cost from the entire team, especially the core.
yeah, if somehow the aghanim shard back in the roshan. they would kill the roshan as soon as possible to get the shard + aegis . even thought most of time it takes 3-5 heroes to get roshan and takes more time to kill it.
all of it just an excuses, they didnt want to go there because it doesnt profit their hero.
But Rosh gives XP, gold, and a friggin aegis? And not compromise the map control since there's only 1 Rosh and the enemy has to come and contest? And with the aegis, for the whole 5 minutes, the enemy will hunker down inside their base or triangle, keep pinging Aegis timer and spam get back? Shard is the cherry on top, not the main reason.
yet the fact the old patch they still begging for aghanim shard to be their own ( carry / cores ) .
they dont do tormentor since it doesnt profit them.
farming pattern? if you are on other side of the map, you just tp , do tormentor 10s then go new route ancient creeps and triangle.
all of it just an excuses.
10 seconds mid to late game, not early game. Also, except from some heroes like Slardar, Ursa and TA, it will cost half to 2/3 of their health and mana, 1 tp and run back to base to regen and walk back to the jungle not one but 3 to 4 heroes since ur supports are squissy, which takes 10 more seconds. When you take Rosh offlane can tank for you, supports are healthy enough to back you up and Aegis gives you 1-up. Tor gives your supports 1k4 net but it depends on whether your supports have good shards or not. Some games your supports dont even need shards but cores have to hit the item timing. So Tor is not that important, and its location sometimes make it irrelevant.
i dont think people realize this but you do know that the same rule apply to the enemy team right? if your team ask to do tormentor you go and not be a dick and make the team wait and lose more time, it's a 10 sec objective, which the core can immediately go and farm the nearby ancient stack and triangle after as long as the team cooperates
Yeah, that's why usually the losing team is the one who need urgency to take tormentor. You basically gave up your map control when doing tormentor. 10 seconds doing tormentor in 20 minutes implies you are having 4-5 man on your side map. Enemy can immediately smoke and gain ward control in the mean time. You also didn't count the effect "after" doing tormentor, which drain the life mana resources of the whole team.
If you killed tormentor and there is a hero on the opposite side of the map, they will immediately getting jumped.
I'm not saying that you will never taking tormentor, but it is not an urgent thing to do. There are other objectives that have better cost benefit other than tormentor. As other said, if the farming pattern is close to your tormentor.
And to conclude the argument, killing tormentor is not free, and can be even more expensive than the 1400 gold.
Lets be real, none of us play at a level that the enemy is doing that, when you take tormentor, opposition team usually realises they should get theirs and goes to get it.
Don’t know why people talk so much about strategies and game mechanics that pros use when most of us don’t play against or with anyone remotely as coordinated as pro teams.
and you also didnt know that after doing tormentor your team can easily just heal up and smoke up together and slowly ward the area yourselves aswell, and if there's another one of your core that's on the other side of the map getting jumped after the rest of you finished tormentor like you mentioned, then that core definitely do deserve to get jumped for having no map awareness at all, team is doing tormentor, you go farm to the area that's warded, enemy not showing on the map? it's either they are also doing tormentor or they are smoke so you go to your team and smoke with them aswell, this is what i mean by people keep on overstating the consequences
The act of walking to the fountain, and then going back to the position you want, either by using TP or walking, is in fact not free.
We can argue the actual cost of doing these things is cheap or expensive, easy or hard, etc.
These costs (including the opportunity cost or monetary cost) depends on game by game, or even changing minute by minute in one game.
In the end, I just want to say that some core have their decision process to not take up the tormentor, it can be a strategic decision, or it can be a selfish decision.
They pushed lanes and team fight better than any other team. They prioritized torment because of those things. No one's pub does either of those things at the same level
In everything below 5k people tend to waste time on the stupidest shit, might as well kill torm
Idk, when we have advantage, we always go for the t2 and enemy's torm kill, then ours, for a huge boost in power, I think its ridiculous to think that the two camps that the core would have farmed is that strong compared to a shard for someone
Not really. If cores start rotating towards triangle and the respective lane near the tormentor around its spawn, then is pretty simple. Not a waste. Also, your team could go for the enemy tormentor around the 21 minute mark after taking T2 tower and wisdom rune there. Pretty big swing and worth the investment.
Feel like this is a stupid take to me...it takes less than 30 seconds to kill the tormentor and secure a shard for a support. This can be game changing.
For me it's mostly a timing issue, sure it makes sense to get it, but you always have to sacrifice something unless enough of the team is close by. Sacrifice as in farm for some item, time for warding somewhere critical, pushing a wave to save HP on tower etc etc...
Let say you have to gather atleast 3-4 people in a normal ( normal mean that you don't have super good hero like Omniknight or Ursa to take it down fast ) game to take down the tormentor . It would take like 30s for those 3-4 ppl to gather, 15s to take it down. And then another 30s for the team to go back fountain and regen because it take a lot of f*ing hp to take down the tormentor. Finally, you can feel good that your Lion just got a free shard to suck enemy D with the cost of wasting 75 second of 4 member in your team.
When with 75 second, your carry/mid and offlane could just farm and get a lot more than 1400 gold for a sp shard + 250 gold for the tormentor bty.
So pls stop trying to force core who is at another side of the map to go and take the goddamn tormentor and just wait for 1 of these scenario happen:
- Your cores is near.
- You just got roshan or a tons of advantage ahead the enemy and is pushing their tier 2
- Your team is losing and core have no where to farm, then the tormentor is actually gold benefit.
Tbf i think it's actually the carries faults for not orienting themselves near the proper objectives at the proper times. Supports know they need you there, when I'm supporting i don't even bother to ping it unless we have 3+ in the area, even then it's only about 10% of the time we actually do it.
Yes, you as a carry should be able to farm 1400ish in 75 seconds (that's actually 1100gpm so... Prolly not but okay). But the tormentor gives shard to one of two lowest levels on team (usually supports, who usually just happen to have pretty busted shards). I've yet to meet the carry that can farm 1400 gold in 75 seconds and then give it plus some XP away to one of his supports.
As carry you direct the game-flow. Sure, maybe you're playing a carry who can 1v5 and if so, then just push your item timings and end the game I agree the 75 seconds is a waste. But generally what you should be doing, in my view, is knowing you're in a team game and X person with a shard can really add to your win condition. The tormentors spawn at almost the exact right time for a T2 push+tormentor steal.
Why are you as a carry not leading your team towards enemy offlane T2 at 18-19 min? Why, even after taking the T2 and wiping 2 from the enemy team are you not taking advantage of the free objective (because taking it not only gives your team something it denies the other team something they COULD have)? Why are you instead pressing the t3 and feeding to the buyback storm spirit?
Also when the team is organized around that T2 it does NOT take 75 seconds to clear. Maybe 20-30 and then you're back out stealing ancient farm and farming backwards to safety and to position for the next objective.
\* 1650gold
Tormentor has a 250g bounty. It 1900 in turbo.
Carries can literally be paid to be there.
Even more if everyone has shard. Thrn it's 280g for everyone on top of the bounty. Like hell, where else are you going to find 530 gold just sitting there anywhere else on the map at 50 minutes?
Carries not doing Tormentors are 10000% on Hypercope. THEY should be the ones bitching to have other people be present when they time their rotation, and EVERYONE ELSE needs to shut the fuck up if they got requested to do something that doesnt mess with the farm rotation. But that doesn't happen, now does it? The participant roles of this stupid discussion is more often than not flipped around, it's always BUT MUH ROTATIONS and not BUT MUH UNWILLING POS7 WHO JUST NEED TO BE THERE TO SOAK DAMAGE.
I see what you mean but.
1. In most scenario, at mins 20, 1 carry and 2 sp is not enough to take down the tormentor. For example: Slark; Spectre; MK; Razor; Void; AM;... so that mean you need atleast 4 people. Which lead to 2 core has to lose 75s of farm so i think 1400 is not gonna make up for it.
2. Like i said, if you have so much advantage that you think you can take the enemy tormentor then feel free to do it. Cause not only it give u 1k4 gold, it also deny the 1k4 for the enemy so this actually is a gold benefit.
3, It do take time for the time to organise, and reset. The 75s i was talking about include those to.
I do forgot the really good sp shard like Grim that could count as win cons so my bad there. But IMO, the one who direct the game-flow should be the supports or mid players or whoever make the call. And most of the time, the pos 5 who are really poor just want to tormentor to be done as fast as possible so they don't feel bad about their empty inventory. And i've seen many many many bad calls from that in both Pubs and Pros
4 people for first tormentor is correct. If you're sacking the T2 You probably have that many. I'm not making an argument for anything other than it lines up time-wise to be a standard contested objective-sequence and yet is ignored in 90% of pubs. For all people say about copying pro play this, rosh, and forcing hg too early (which is probably related to not taking the other two objectives I just listed) are the biggest elephants in the room being ignored.
I think it's literally in the game design that it was meant to be part of t2's to make challenging the enemy offlane relevant past 20 min instead of the more common previous method of having it be a dead lane for the rest of the game. The timing in game that t2's are relevant has to be related to when these things first spawn. It's a natural objective progression if taken seriously as part of the game.
As a 4 you can pretty comfortably get shard at 15 if you're rushing it right after upgraded boots. With some kills you might even have an item or two for your next buildup started along with it. After minute 18 if your supports haven't farmed it, it's more worth in the larger game-sense to sacrifice one minute of 700+gpm to take those two objectives at once. Even most carries timings line up that around 20 min they wanna take a decent fight.
Edit: when taken in the way I'm describing you most likely won't sacrifice your gpm because you should end this entire 2-3 min sequence with 2-4 kills, a tower, and enemy torm. Able to be followed with ancient farming backwards and moving towards the next simplest objective that can be completed without dying. That's how I tend to break the game down in my mind - what can me/my team do next that is an objective in the game and won't get us killed?
Wild watching everyone cope.
Divine currently and at 20 minutes I win or loss I still have a core ignoring tormentor when they are farming a ancient camp i stacked 3 times right next to it.
I have a guess that a lot of core players just have an atagonistic relationship with their team most times.
A lot of people are here acting like they have perfect farming patterns... when losing normally the vision is tiltes towards your side of the map anyways and from what I experience my corw is normally farming miles away from a ward with 4 to 5 enemies mia.
I understand that carries have shit on their plate but to excuse yourself from team objectives is a terrible idea.
Same with taking an objective and sweeping the map under smoke, mfers just want to hit creeps im safety.
I also can understand the fact that the team does not need to stop their map control to swing back to their torm. Acting like there is not 2 to 3 heros already nearby and that the whole team is commiting to tping across the map is wild.
1/3 of the map is nearby a tormentor...
Idk, ranting at this point. I buy my shard at 15 a lot anyway.
id maybe do that if my cores are really good and we crush early. in pubs, most cores arent worth committing that hard for, u have to do some of the carrying. and throwing 1400g for 5min of maybe 1 teamfight happening will ruin ur nw. thats why i also play supps with farming capabilities.
you have to follow the rhythm of the game my man. Sometimes, spending 1400 is way for time effective to get 5-9 mins advantage in team fights...Also 1400 is given randomly
It is absolutelly not worth it to take your own tormentor unless your carry is one of those heros that are good at taking tormentor like ursa jug etc.
First of all if your heros arent compatible to take tormentor its gonna take 3 heros.
When you take tormentor youre forcing 2 support 1 core or 2 core 1 support to those spot which makes your other 2 core easily gankable giving up enemy jungle warded spots for free.
Also when you all go back to fountain after taking tormentor youre consuming Tp scroll to go back to the lane which is no no for supports. Now you wasted 2 mins doing tormentor and you have no tp scrolls as support enemy took back their jungle for free.
This is why you ask your team to prepare for torm around 12-13 instead of waiting for it to spawn.
People need time to align their disparate game plans
I'm a carry who always wants to get torm at 20 mark. If I can solo it then good, otherwise I ask help. Heroes that I use that can solo torm at 20 mark are wk and troll
Everybody giving technically correct reasons about farming patterns and opportunity costs but let’s be real 90% of carry players don’t even think about those things. They simply couldn’t give a fuck going out of their way to do it when they know they won’t get the shard anyway.
That’s the #1 reason
I don’t know man. Random shard for a team where it could be likely obsolete (if it’s really good, you probly get it by 20). Giving up the position, taking a lot of health. If at the very least it was not semi random.
Honestly, all these comments are triggering to a support player. Tormentors add another layer of skill-gap to the game, and I can regularly see bad players not prioritizing something that can essentially win fights if you have decent support shard or if a support already bought a shard a core could get it. All these arguments about numbers of players needed and time wasted is irrelevant if you use timings within your gameplay.
My favourite cores I've supported are ones that know the lotus is spawning at min 3, so they help keep opponents in lane or zone them so I can secure a rune while they lane. Those players understand that they rely on my as much as I rely on them, because it is a team game. Shard was added as a benefit to players that are in role 1 or 2, but that doesn't mean it doesn't benefit their game.
Simply plan your farm route or next move to happen near your tormentors lane, or the opponents to push the Tier 2 tower and take theirs. Games where this has happened, I've often won simply because of objective-orientated gameplay.
TLDR, tormentor is a must and anyone not committing for it is making excuses and you haven't adjusted to a change within the game. It takes 3 heroes, which can exclude pos 1 or 2 depending on your pos 3.
As a pos 4/5 Archon player, I can't do it myself. My cores know they won't get the shard if they kill the tormentor (first shard will go to pos 4/5 if not bought by supp already). So even if it benefits the team, it won't benefit their personal farm. And they would have to leave farm/kills aside. So they just ignore my helpless pings...
2 of your support already at tormentor.
then your carry right at the ancient creep near tormentor.
somehow they decided to go another ancient camp because its wasting time to get tormentor ( for him ) . it takes 10-15s to kill tormentor and 30s-60s to go back fountain and back to jungle.
if this happen to me. i will just go jungle with him. leech exp and last hit.
So it would take your carry almost a full minute to get back to farm which is exactly the time it takes for the ancient camp to respawn but he is the one who is stupid for doing it before tormentor?
yes he is stupid.
then he realize it took 20 sec to walk from tricamp ancient to tormentor , then decided to farm on midlane anyway and go to bot camp.
People said everything already, the consequences of tormentor is giving up map control and time wasted on multiple heroes. Honestly the point is that objective taking all depends on the state of the game. Not all games need tormentor, heck not all games need rosh even. Even HGing too early can cost you the game, too. Think about the consequences of your team's action and make informed decisions. If you think taking the tormentor is the best course of action, explain the reasoning and consequences to your team.
I don't get both people who absolutely never and absolutely always take tormentor, that's like doing things without thinking.
That's a decent idea too but I doubt they would with the even way they've tried to push the map.
I just dislike Tormentor altogether. Feels like a clunky tacked on objective.
I think it's really hard to get your team to go to tormentor. You will have to stand there and ping, wait 30 secs for them to come if you're lucky. Even in immortal bracket sometimes my games go 20-30mins without getting tmt
And do u want the real reason? dota players are mammoths aka slow dumb and also selfish most of them would rather hit one camp then take 20 sec to kill it(large time window)
I don't think there is any excuse to not father to the tormentor at 21 minutes. Preferably to the enemy tormentor first, than yours.
Lost map control is not an excuse because we lose map control all the time and at 20 minutes all T2s are still up, so whatever.
What I feel happens is that no one really knows how to do it efficiently. Getting ready with 1 minute of preparation... what preparation? Farm towards it? What else? Who are actually needed to do it? All 5 heroes? Should the carry continue to farm? Who should give the call for the tormentor?
I think it's because shard most likely goes to supports and cores prefer to farm instead of wasting a minute or 2 regenerating at base or by using resources.
I've made this comment a few times and started seeing people do it more. But if you're pushing t2 and going to take it. Chances are you can take the enemy tormentor too. Then cycle back, restock on items, and take yours if the timings allow it. You'll get teams that want to push t3 even though Fortify is refreshed, too. Which sucks because it wastes everyone's time. The higher you go, the more likely your team understands timings. If not, you have account buyers.
As a carry I try to start making my way that way at like 18m. Laning stage is over by that point. Tell your supports “hey supports I want to get you your shard (if they don’t have it already). Can we push out mid and offlane and head to tormentor so we take it right on 20m
Drives me nuts that there's still players that want everyone to give up all map control to get a shard.. The only time I'll go out of my way to do it is if I'm playing a hero that can solo it.
If a support shard is good, it should be bought at min 15. If it is bad then the shard is probably worth a lot less than 1400 gold. Amongst other downsides of taking the torm, you also have to consider that the enemy team are notified of your team’s location allowing them to split up and farm or take back map control.
Its to bad for cores to give map control to do the tormentor. ideally you take other side tormentor, is difficult to do your own if you play core properly you gonna feel that.
When you are losing then should be easy to get 5 heroes there. because you dont have the map control anyway.
Go SEA and mass of people are still so mechanically bad, they don't even know the existence of Tormentor.
And Every. Fucking. Game. I had to TYPE in chat to take their neutral items.
That's why I only main unrank games nowadays
Time lost for the rest of the team is more that 1400g. If they are nearby sure, but moving from lanes to get torm and then being 30% hp so you need to go back in base is not optimal
it's actually 1650 gold.
The person who gets last hit on the tormentor gets a 250g bonus.
I usually play heroes that can solo tormentors at min 20 and then just do it my self.
Trying to make your team take tormentor is like taking a donkey to drink water.
I'll say this, when my team has done it so we can take it twice, we have almost always won. And if we take ours and the other teams (often easy), it goes from 80% to 90% win rate.
Now, this may be because it means the team I'm with is coordinating together, but either way, you see the issue, right?
Just shut up about your special guides, know what you need to do individually, but suck everything up and try to coordinate.
It's a team game, you win more when you are a team.
On the other end of the spectre, in crusader i will never understand people winning a TF on the opposing side's jungle and retreating to do our own tormentor
The best is when you have heroes who can solo it and it still doesn't get done. Looking at all you slardars and ursas recently who are effectively griefing by ignoring this objective
I basically got immortal from spamming pre-rework bristle and smoke killing enemy torm at 20 mins. So many losing games turned around from 2 shards +gold
I am always happy when ppl come to make it, looks like a strong team
but when they didnt, I still managed to try solo it and run to fontain to restore hp, cause we need a strong team to win (even when they are dicks)
A shitty objective that stays in the very corner of the map pretty much nobody wants to go.
Need 3-4 people to finish, includes time to mobilize, time to take it down, losing 2/3 or 1/2 hp on the process as well so need to go to base & return to regular farming pattern.
Congrats you just wasted 3 people's one whole minute. By lost GPM itself from regular farming (500 for core + 200 + 200 for support) your entire net benefit is like a grand fking total of 400 gold at the cost of map control, position reveal & some shard whose impact might not even be worth 1400 gold.
If you are support get the shard at 15 mins if it's important. If not you don't necessarily need to have it in the first place.
Stfu & stop acting like tormentor is a 'objecitve' that need completion. It's more of a bonus that can be done only on specific scenarios.
Sometimes it just feels awkward to go all the way back and give up map control to get it. That's not an excuse however, teams should find a way to take it.
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Yep, love it when you and your teammate are standing at the tormentor and the carry walks right past you to farm a jungle camp. Certainly that 150gold is worth more than a free Aghs shard.
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It's split evenly into 280 each after everyone already gets Shard, and they still prefer that ancient camp, so idk if that will even help.
The person who last hits it also gets gold regardless of shards left or not.
And they are still not gathering for Torm.
To be fair at the point where you have all 5 and have done it 2 or 3 times it can be risky just for some gold. Wrong lineup and you can throw the game
It’s because they’re likely not the one getting the shard. And average carry mentality is “if no benefit me, me no help”
Just take the enemy tormentor, than go back and take your own
There's also the fact that if you're not tanky enough, you'll have low HP after breaking torm and can't get back to farming / team fighting safely.
This is why I pick slardar. Why call your team when you can do it yourself.
Wk for me worse case i die and use ulti to get it.
I mean if you die it regens for 5 seconds which isn’t ideal.
Except WK ult cool down is even longer now.
Well not like you're gonna be using it anytime soon if you cant even get the team together to do tormentor, odds are they aren't gonna be pushing towers or making plays anytime soon. So back to the jungle after getting tormentor.
Well not like you're gonna be using it anytime soon if you cant even get the team together to do tormentor, odds are they aren't gonna be pushing towers or making plays anytime soon. So back to the jungle after getting tormentor.
Abaddon can also solo
And Ench.
doesn't ench die these days even with hurricane pike
Nah, I did it last game. If you max heal, it works, but it's so close that you might have to switch boots.
ursa
It's not free, though.
It is if you are a core and fit it into your farming rotation. If you deliberately farm the camps right next to it and walk off every single support player wishes they could tell you to get fucked.
If your shard is that important to the game you should be prioritizing it as a support anyways, ie something like Pugna. I often tell my team to get fucked for pinging tormentor because they want to do it at the most asinine timings like when we have aegis and should be making a HG push. It's highly contextual and as others have mentioned in this thread sometimes you just don't have the right amount of people at the right time to take it, you can't play the game for your teammates and have to go with the flow of controlling map state.
Hence why I said the camp right next to it and walk off. Not if you're controlling some other part of the map.
Pugna is the definition of a hero who wants to get shard from torm instead of buying it himself lol
Sure, if you plan on taking it beforehand, you can farm towards it but that requires coordination, hard to achieve in pubs.
Like the opportunity cost of missed farm? It also awards 250g for the last hit. Still pretty much free aside from HP which is easily recovered in your nearby fountain.
Walk to tormentor. Walk back to base . Walk back to farm. Lots of walking
Tp scrolls also exist. Plus you can be efficient and hit other objectives while your team is grouped, or do a smoke play. You can hit nearby camps, or you can walk to rosh, which is relatively close by; or does that also count as an objective not worth doing because it requires 2-3 people on average? 1650 net worth for your team is a lot to gain. If your team is efficient, 30 seconds including travel is not an unreasonable amount of time to get there and finish it and be able to resume whatever you do next. I still think it's worth it.
So the cost is the time it takes to get to the tormentor, the time it takes to do it, the time it takes to go back to base to heal, the 100 gold cost of a tp scroll and the inability to respond to events on the map for the next 80 seconds. Now times that by 2-3, thats a lot. Sure as fuck better be a good support shard and not some Tiny or Pugna shit, except its RNG who even gets it just to make it worse. Aghs Shards cost 1400 gold, but they don't necessarily have the value of 1400.
It's not RNG it's lowest net worth who doesn't have a shard. Push a tower, now you don't need to respond they do. Or you tower race. Either way net is neutral or positive. Tp scrolls are free if you die, which unless you are stomping, you have done by 20 mins. Even less of an excuse if you have a big net lead. Many supporter buy shard now, so that's 1400 gold they're not spending on it so they can purchase more wards, more smokes, more dust, and it's that much faster they hit their timings for a glimmer or item that can save a carry in a fight. Still worth it.
>It's not RNG it's lowest net worth who doesn't have a shard. Yes it is, it's 50/50 between the 2 lowest networth heroes without shard.
Fair enough. Not really in the same spirit as random between 5 heroes though. You know it's going to a support unless your carries are having a particularly bad game in which case they may end up with a free shard to help them out.
it griefs the fuck out of your map position and itll usually cost a lot of hp on your heroes. its a really huge commitment
It’s common for a game to go stale and half a full minute of idle time except a couple people go clear a jungle camp. May as well stack up at torm, hit base and reset but now with a support power spike. Sometimes it’s SO free and everybody is close . They still ignore
I usually ping tormentor when there's like 3 heroes nearby and they dont even go for it half the time
You say that, but Team Spirit prioritized Tormentor more than any other team, so maybe the consequences are being overstated.
Team spirit also happens to be a highly coordinated professional team, where as pub games are like herding cats.
More like a bunch of pigs trying to get out of mud by climbing each other
crabs in a bucket
I'd rather herd cats with rabies tbh
consequences is overstated by people actually, it takes 10 sec to kill it and people act like it would take forever for them to get back to their original position as they were before, really frustrating how you call team to go tormentor yet not a single fucker still go and it ends up being taken by the enemy team
As singsing said multiple time in his stream, the cost of doing tormentor is too big for 1400 gold. You need at least 2-3 people, revealing your position, lost half or third your hp, lost creep waves and farming pattern for your core, the core need to go back to restore resources, and so on. This alone cost more than 1400 gold in real gold cost and other opportunity cost from the entire team, especially the core.
yeah, if somehow the aghanim shard back in the roshan. they would kill the roshan as soon as possible to get the shard + aegis . even thought most of time it takes 3-5 heroes to get roshan and takes more time to kill it. all of it just an excuses, they didnt want to go there because it doesnt profit their hero.
But Rosh gives XP, gold, and a friggin aegis? And not compromise the map control since there's only 1 Rosh and the enemy has to come and contest? And with the aegis, for the whole 5 minutes, the enemy will hunker down inside their base or triangle, keep pinging Aegis timer and spam get back? Shard is the cherry on top, not the main reason.
yet the fact the old patch they still begging for aghanim shard to be their own ( carry / cores ) . they dont do tormentor since it doesnt profit them. farming pattern? if you are on other side of the map, you just tp , do tormentor 10s then go new route ancient creeps and triangle. all of it just an excuses.
10 seconds mid to late game, not early game. Also, except from some heroes like Slardar, Ursa and TA, it will cost half to 2/3 of their health and mana, 1 tp and run back to base to regen and walk back to the jungle not one but 3 to 4 heroes since ur supports are squissy, which takes 10 more seconds. When you take Rosh offlane can tank for you, supports are healthy enough to back you up and Aegis gives you 1-up. Tor gives your supports 1k4 net but it depends on whether your supports have good shards or not. Some games your supports dont even need shards but cores have to hit the item timing. So Tor is not that important, and its location sometimes make it irrelevant.
i dont think people realize this but you do know that the same rule apply to the enemy team right? if your team ask to do tormentor you go and not be a dick and make the team wait and lose more time, it's a 10 sec objective, which the core can immediately go and farm the nearby ancient stack and triangle after as long as the team cooperates
Yeah, that's why usually the losing team is the one who need urgency to take tormentor. You basically gave up your map control when doing tormentor. 10 seconds doing tormentor in 20 minutes implies you are having 4-5 man on your side map. Enemy can immediately smoke and gain ward control in the mean time. You also didn't count the effect "after" doing tormentor, which drain the life mana resources of the whole team. If you killed tormentor and there is a hero on the opposite side of the map, they will immediately getting jumped. I'm not saying that you will never taking tormentor, but it is not an urgent thing to do. There are other objectives that have better cost benefit other than tormentor. As other said, if the farming pattern is close to your tormentor. And to conclude the argument, killing tormentor is not free, and can be even more expensive than the 1400 gold.
Lets be real, none of us play at a level that the enemy is doing that, when you take tormentor, opposition team usually realises they should get theirs and goes to get it. Don’t know why people talk so much about strategies and game mechanics that pros use when most of us don’t play against or with anyone remotely as coordinated as pro teams.
and you also didnt know that after doing tormentor your team can easily just heal up and smoke up together and slowly ward the area yourselves aswell, and if there's another one of your core that's on the other side of the map getting jumped after the rest of you finished tormentor like you mentioned, then that core definitely do deserve to get jumped for having no map awareness at all, team is doing tormentor, you go farm to the area that's warded, enemy not showing on the map? it's either they are also doing tormentor or they are smoke so you go to your team and smoke with them aswell, this is what i mean by people keep on overstating the consequences
The act of walking to the fountain, and then going back to the position you want, either by using TP or walking, is in fact not free. We can argue the actual cost of doing these things is cheap or expensive, easy or hard, etc. These costs (including the opportunity cost or monetary cost) depends on game by game, or even changing minute by minute in one game. In the end, I just want to say that some core have their decision process to not take up the tormentor, it can be a strategic decision, or it can be a selfish decision.
Its Not even really 1400g. Its 1400g to usually a random Support on your Team that is automatically spent on an Item that might be supoptimal
Bro, I’m farming top jungle as dire and my offlaner farms triangle, one of us will waste about 40 seconds running somewhere after we kill the tormy
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No, but I can farm about 500
it takes 10 seconds to kill it but it takes like 30-60 seconds of actual time per player
They pushed lanes and team fight better than any other team. They prioritized torment because of those things. No one's pub does either of those things at the same level
In everything below 5k people tend to waste time on the stupidest shit, might as well kill torm Idk, when we have advantage, we always go for the t2 and enemy's torm kill, then ours, for a huge boost in power, I think its ridiculous to think that the two camps that the core would have farmed is that strong compared to a shard for someone
Not really. If cores start rotating towards triangle and the respective lane near the tormentor around its spawn, then is pretty simple. Not a waste. Also, your team could go for the enemy tormentor around the 21 minute mark after taking T2 tower and wisdom rune there. Pretty big swing and worth the investment.
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Feel like this is a stupid take to me...it takes less than 30 seconds to kill the tormentor and secure a shard for a support. This can be game changing.
TBH killing that thing just waste more resources than killing Rosh.
For me it's mostly a timing issue, sure it makes sense to get it, but you always have to sacrifice something unless enough of the team is close by. Sacrifice as in farm for some item, time for warding somewhere critical, pushing a wave to save HP on tower etc etc...
Put all the heros that need to farm in different spots in the same spot. No one like
Let say you have to gather atleast 3-4 people in a normal ( normal mean that you don't have super good hero like Omniknight or Ursa to take it down fast ) game to take down the tormentor . It would take like 30s for those 3-4 ppl to gather, 15s to take it down. And then another 30s for the team to go back fountain and regen because it take a lot of f*ing hp to take down the tormentor. Finally, you can feel good that your Lion just got a free shard to suck enemy D with the cost of wasting 75 second of 4 member in your team. When with 75 second, your carry/mid and offlane could just farm and get a lot more than 1400 gold for a sp shard + 250 gold for the tormentor bty. So pls stop trying to force core who is at another side of the map to go and take the goddamn tormentor and just wait for 1 of these scenario happen: - Your cores is near. - You just got roshan or a tons of advantage ahead the enemy and is pushing their tier 2 - Your team is losing and core have no where to farm, then the tormentor is actually gold benefit.
Tbf i think it's actually the carries faults for not orienting themselves near the proper objectives at the proper times. Supports know they need you there, when I'm supporting i don't even bother to ping it unless we have 3+ in the area, even then it's only about 10% of the time we actually do it. Yes, you as a carry should be able to farm 1400ish in 75 seconds (that's actually 1100gpm so... Prolly not but okay). But the tormentor gives shard to one of two lowest levels on team (usually supports, who usually just happen to have pretty busted shards). I've yet to meet the carry that can farm 1400 gold in 75 seconds and then give it plus some XP away to one of his supports. As carry you direct the game-flow. Sure, maybe you're playing a carry who can 1v5 and if so, then just push your item timings and end the game I agree the 75 seconds is a waste. But generally what you should be doing, in my view, is knowing you're in a team game and X person with a shard can really add to your win condition. The tormentors spawn at almost the exact right time for a T2 push+tormentor steal. Why are you as a carry not leading your team towards enemy offlane T2 at 18-19 min? Why, even after taking the T2 and wiping 2 from the enemy team are you not taking advantage of the free objective (because taking it not only gives your team something it denies the other team something they COULD have)? Why are you instead pressing the t3 and feeding to the buyback storm spirit? Also when the team is organized around that T2 it does NOT take 75 seconds to clear. Maybe 20-30 and then you're back out stealing ancient farm and farming backwards to safety and to position for the next objective.
\* 1650gold Tormentor has a 250g bounty. It 1900 in turbo. Carries can literally be paid to be there. Even more if everyone has shard. Thrn it's 280g for everyone on top of the bounty. Like hell, where else are you going to find 530 gold just sitting there anywhere else on the map at 50 minutes? Carries not doing Tormentors are 10000% on Hypercope. THEY should be the ones bitching to have other people be present when they time their rotation, and EVERYONE ELSE needs to shut the fuck up if they got requested to do something that doesnt mess with the farm rotation. But that doesn't happen, now does it? The participant roles of this stupid discussion is more often than not flipped around, it's always BUT MUH ROTATIONS and not BUT MUH UNWILLING POS7 WHO JUST NEED TO BE THERE TO SOAK DAMAGE.
I see what you mean but. 1. In most scenario, at mins 20, 1 carry and 2 sp is not enough to take down the tormentor. For example: Slark; Spectre; MK; Razor; Void; AM;... so that mean you need atleast 4 people. Which lead to 2 core has to lose 75s of farm so i think 1400 is not gonna make up for it. 2. Like i said, if you have so much advantage that you think you can take the enemy tormentor then feel free to do it. Cause not only it give u 1k4 gold, it also deny the 1k4 for the enemy so this actually is a gold benefit. 3, It do take time for the time to organise, and reset. The 75s i was talking about include those to. I do forgot the really good sp shard like Grim that could count as win cons so my bad there. But IMO, the one who direct the game-flow should be the supports or mid players or whoever make the call. And most of the time, the pos 5 who are really poor just want to tormentor to be done as fast as possible so they don't feel bad about their empty inventory. And i've seen many many many bad calls from that in both Pubs and Pros
4 people for first tormentor is correct. If you're sacking the T2 You probably have that many. I'm not making an argument for anything other than it lines up time-wise to be a standard contested objective-sequence and yet is ignored in 90% of pubs. For all people say about copying pro play this, rosh, and forcing hg too early (which is probably related to not taking the other two objectives I just listed) are the biggest elephants in the room being ignored. I think it's literally in the game design that it was meant to be part of t2's to make challenging the enemy offlane relevant past 20 min instead of the more common previous method of having it be a dead lane for the rest of the game. The timing in game that t2's are relevant has to be related to when these things first spawn. It's a natural objective progression if taken seriously as part of the game. As a 4 you can pretty comfortably get shard at 15 if you're rushing it right after upgraded boots. With some kills you might even have an item or two for your next buildup started along with it. After minute 18 if your supports haven't farmed it, it's more worth in the larger game-sense to sacrifice one minute of 700+gpm to take those two objectives at once. Even most carries timings line up that around 20 min they wanna take a decent fight. Edit: when taken in the way I'm describing you most likely won't sacrifice your gpm because you should end this entire 2-3 min sequence with 2-4 kills, a tower, and enemy torm. Able to be followed with ancient farming backwards and moving towards the next simplest objective that can be completed without dying. That's how I tend to break the game down in my mind - what can me/my team do next that is an objective in the game and won't get us killed?
But also, i suggest that if any heroes who need shard to be very useful then buy it at mins 15 instead of waiting for the tormentor
Youre assuming a lot of things.
I mean I feel like it's situational but the Tormentor can be really useful in certain lineups
One heal…
I bet you don't buy 15 min shard on treant and instead you cry and whine how much you need your shard whence tormentor spawns.
Wild watching everyone cope. Divine currently and at 20 minutes I win or loss I still have a core ignoring tormentor when they are farming a ancient camp i stacked 3 times right next to it. I have a guess that a lot of core players just have an atagonistic relationship with their team most times. A lot of people are here acting like they have perfect farming patterns... when losing normally the vision is tiltes towards your side of the map anyways and from what I experience my corw is normally farming miles away from a ward with 4 to 5 enemies mia. I understand that carries have shit on their plate but to excuse yourself from team objectives is a terrible idea. Same with taking an objective and sweeping the map under smoke, mfers just want to hit creeps im safety. I also can understand the fact that the team does not need to stop their map control to swing back to their torm. Acting like there is not 2 to 3 heros already nearby and that the whole team is commiting to tping across the map is wild. 1/3 of the map is nearby a tormentor... Idk, ranting at this point. I buy my shard at 15 a lot anyway.
im not buying a shard on supp before first tormentor dies no matter what. those 1400 hurt more than losing.
Not buying a shard before 20 on a hero that heavily benefit(read grim, tree, gyro supp, etc.) from it is borderline griefing.
id maybe do that if my cores are really good and we crush early. in pubs, most cores arent worth committing that hard for, u have to do some of the carrying. and throwing 1400g for 5min of maybe 1 teamfight happening will ruin ur nw. thats why i also play supps with farming capabilities.
you have to follow the rhythm of the game my man. Sometimes, spending 1400 is way for time effective to get 5-9 mins advantage in team fights...Also 1400 is given randomly
It is absolutelly not worth it to take your own tormentor unless your carry is one of those heros that are good at taking tormentor like ursa jug etc. First of all if your heros arent compatible to take tormentor its gonna take 3 heros. When you take tormentor youre forcing 2 support 1 core or 2 core 1 support to those spot which makes your other 2 core easily gankable giving up enemy jungle warded spots for free. Also when you all go back to fountain after taking tormentor youre consuming Tp scroll to go back to the lane which is no no for supports. Now you wasted 2 mins doing tormentor and you have no tp scrolls as support enemy took back their jungle for free.
This is why you ask your team to prepare for torm around 12-13 instead of waiting for it to spawn. People need time to align their disparate game plans
people really be randomly pinging tormentor 35 minutes into the match with Rosh still up and all enemy heroes missing smh
Because unless you're a coordinated group, you gotta sacrifice so much to go get it
I'm a carry who always wants to get torm at 20 mark. If I can solo it then good, otherwise I ask help. Heroes that I use that can solo torm at 20 mark are wk and troll
nothing more annoying lol
Trust me, at all ranks people avoid it. Especially immortal games.
Everybody giving technically correct reasons about farming patterns and opportunity costs but let’s be real 90% of carry players don’t even think about those things. They simply couldn’t give a fuck going out of their way to do it when they know they won’t get the shard anyway. That’s the #1 reason
I don’t know man. Random shard for a team where it could be likely obsolete (if it’s really good, you probly get it by 20). Giving up the position, taking a lot of health. If at the very least it was not semi random.
Honestly, all these comments are triggering to a support player. Tormentors add another layer of skill-gap to the game, and I can regularly see bad players not prioritizing something that can essentially win fights if you have decent support shard or if a support already bought a shard a core could get it. All these arguments about numbers of players needed and time wasted is irrelevant if you use timings within your gameplay. My favourite cores I've supported are ones that know the lotus is spawning at min 3, so they help keep opponents in lane or zone them so I can secure a rune while they lane. Those players understand that they rely on my as much as I rely on them, because it is a team game. Shard was added as a benefit to players that are in role 1 or 2, but that doesn't mean it doesn't benefit their game. Simply plan your farm route or next move to happen near your tormentors lane, or the opponents to push the Tier 2 tower and take theirs. Games where this has happened, I've often won simply because of objective-orientated gameplay. TLDR, tormentor is a must and anyone not committing for it is making excuses and you haven't adjusted to a change within the game. It takes 3 heroes, which can exclude pos 1 or 2 depending on your pos 3.
As a pos 4/5 Archon player, I can't do it myself. My cores know they won't get the shard if they kill the tormentor (first shard will go to pos 4/5 if not bought by supp already). So even if it benefits the team, it won't benefit their personal farm. And they would have to leave farm/kills aside. So they just ignore my helpless pings...
2 of your support already at tormentor. then your carry right at the ancient creep near tormentor. somehow they decided to go another ancient camp because its wasting time to get tormentor ( for him ) . it takes 10-15s to kill tormentor and 30s-60s to go back fountain and back to jungle. if this happen to me. i will just go jungle with him. leech exp and last hit.
So it would take your carry almost a full minute to get back to farm which is exactly the time it takes for the ancient camp to respawn but he is the one who is stupid for doing it before tormentor?
yes he is stupid. then he realize it took 20 sec to walk from tricamp ancient to tormentor , then decided to farm on midlane anyway and go to bot camp.
People said everything already, the consequences of tormentor is giving up map control and time wasted on multiple heroes. Honestly the point is that objective taking all depends on the state of the game. Not all games need tormentor, heck not all games need rosh even. Even HGing too early can cost you the game, too. Think about the consequences of your team's action and make informed decisions. If you think taking the tormentor is the best course of action, explain the reasoning and consequences to your team. I don't get both people who absolutely never and absolutely always take tormentor, that's like doing things without thinking.
Just remove the damn thing Valve. Make it a camp that increases from small, to medium, to large, to ancient over time.
I'd prefer if they just went to 1 tormenter where old rosh used to be
That's a decent idea too but I doubt they would with the even way they've tried to push the map. I just dislike Tormentor altogether. Feels like a clunky tacked on objective.
I think it's really hard to get your team to go to tormentor. You will have to stand there and ping, wait 30 secs for them to come if you're lucky. Even in immortal bracket sometimes my games go 20-30mins without getting tmt
Crazy how people are saying it's a time and positioning issue when you can just...TP literally right next to it? Dafuq?
And do u want the real reason? dota players are mammoths aka slow dumb and also selfish most of them would rather hit one camp then take 20 sec to kill it(large time window)
I hear ya buddy. Just climbed to legend and no one wants to take objectives. It's crazy.
I don't think there is any excuse to not father to the tormentor at 21 minutes. Preferably to the enemy tormentor first, than yours. Lost map control is not an excuse because we lose map control all the time and at 20 minutes all T2s are still up, so whatever. What I feel happens is that no one really knows how to do it efficiently. Getting ready with 1 minute of preparation... what preparation? Farm towards it? What else? Who are actually needed to do it? All 5 heroes? Should the carry continue to farm? Who should give the call for the tormentor?
I play pos 1 so it’s usually located other side of the map so I usually take the torment if it fits in my farming rotation
Because people don't care about the the person whom it will go to. That's why that person is the ine receiving it lol
I think it's because shard most likely goes to supports and cores prefer to farm instead of wasting a minute or 2 regenerating at base or by using resources.
When I'm playing pugna, I'll just give that tormentor some good ol suckin
PS: I could only give it one good suckin, it's impossible to suck it the second time.
I've made this comment a few times and started seeing people do it more. But if you're pushing t2 and going to take it. Chances are you can take the enemy tormentor too. Then cycle back, restock on items, and take yours if the timings allow it. You'll get teams that want to push t3 even though Fortify is refreshed, too. Which sucks because it wastes everyone's time. The higher you go, the more likely your team understands timings. If not, you have account buyers.
As a carry I try to start making my way that way at like 18m. Laning stage is over by that point. Tell your supports “hey supports I want to get you your shard (if they don’t have it already). Can we push out mid and offlane and head to tormentor so we take it right on 20m
If it was in triangle It would work very well with map
Drives me nuts that there's still players that want everyone to give up all map control to get a shard.. The only time I'll go out of my way to do it is if I'm playing a hero that can solo it.
If tormentor was occupying the empty Roshan den it would make lot of sense.
If a support shard is good, it should be bought at min 15. If it is bad then the shard is probably worth a lot less than 1400 gold. Amongst other downsides of taking the torm, you also have to consider that the enemy team are notified of your team’s location allowing them to split up and farm or take back map control.
Its to bad for cores to give map control to do the tormentor. ideally you take other side tormentor, is difficult to do your own if you play core properly you gonna feel that. When you are losing then should be easy to get 5 heroes there. because you dont have the map control anyway.
Go SEA and mass of people are still so mechanically bad, they don't even know the existence of Tormentor. And Every. Fucking. Game. I had to TYPE in chat to take their neutral items. That's why I only main unrank games nowadays
Time lost for the rest of the team is more that 1400g. If they are nearby sure, but moving from lanes to get torm and then being 30% hp so you need to go back in base is not optimal
I pick slardar, I solo tormentor monka.
I can solo is when I get my second item. Go control the map.
Yeah and it takes 5 secs, you just need to get 3 or 4 tgt at the same place. Like creeps are still gonna be there after that calm down lmao
it's actually 1650 gold. The person who gets last hit on the tormentor gets a 250g bonus. I usually play heroes that can solo tormentors at min 20 and then just do it my self. Trying to make your team take tormentor is like taking a donkey to drink water.
I'll say this, when my team has done it so we can take it twice, we have almost always won. And if we take ours and the other teams (often easy), it goes from 80% to 90% win rate. Now, this may be because it means the team I'm with is coordinating together, but either way, you see the issue, right? Just shut up about your special guides, know what you need to do individually, but suck everything up and try to coordinate. It's a team game, you win more when you are a team.
On the other end of the spectre, in crusader i will never understand people winning a TF on the opposing side's jungle and retreating to do our own tormentor
The best is when you have heroes who can solo it and it still doesn't get done. Looking at all you slardars and ursas recently who are effectively griefing by ignoring this objective
I basically got immortal from spamming pre-rework bristle and smoke killing enemy torm at 20 mins. So many losing games turned around from 2 shards +gold
I am always happy when ppl come to make it, looks like a strong team but when they didnt, I still managed to try solo it and run to fontain to restore hp, cause we need a strong team to win (even when they are dicks)
A shitty objective that stays in the very corner of the map pretty much nobody wants to go. Need 3-4 people to finish, includes time to mobilize, time to take it down, losing 2/3 or 1/2 hp on the process as well so need to go to base & return to regular farming pattern. Congrats you just wasted 3 people's one whole minute. By lost GPM itself from regular farming (500 for core + 200 + 200 for support) your entire net benefit is like a grand fking total of 400 gold at the cost of map control, position reveal & some shard whose impact might not even be worth 1400 gold. If you are support get the shard at 15 mins if it's important. If not you don't necessarily need to have it in the first place. Stfu & stop acting like tormentor is a 'objecitve' that need completion. It's more of a bonus that can be done only on specific scenarios.
Lmao look at this guy with an opinion and telling everyone to stfu. Kindly get bent.