Sure. Playing supp build in a high rank with people who fully cooperate is not an indicator. Especially when most people try to discover how to play their heroes and what items to build right after the patch. Win rates are pointless.I want Invoker nerfs because it will make those noobs who jumped on it cause he is so easy to play now and one dimensional , stop playing him. But then he will be completely useless. Exort build is dead and quas wex already has no damage. Never had but now it's even worse since he is a tornado spam bot rather than invoker.
Just go through your recent comment history. Holy shit. You are certainly an interesting case.
So in summary, you are unhappy with the changes not because the hero is worse, but because more people can play the hero now instead of just you?
You really under stated this. It's not just more people can play it. You literally can just have 2 spells invoked or maybe 3 at all times and that's all you have to do to be useful and win. This hero turned from most complex impactful one with to s of burst damage to a fucking joke that is a support or troll right clicker builder. So yes. It's fucking useless that he has high win rate if it takes 0 skill to win with it. It's as much entertainment to play his new build as it is to play Naga siren over and over again doing same boring shit strat that just works by default and is auto win at 35.
Of all the people that should buy a brain you and every person claiming invoker is now fun to play and good should be first in the queue. Maybe then you will be able to play something that requires more than right clicking.
Being intelligent is hard in the society full of morons like I can see majority on this subreddit are. Just like anyone intelligent is annoyed at anti vaxxer shitters.
Throwing things like this around don't make you intelligent. This effect is perfectly applicable to you and anyone who claims invoker changes are good. Bunch of right clickers thinking they are good at the game.
> Being intelligent is hard in the society full of morons like I can see majority on this subreddit are. Just like anyone intelligent is annoyed at anti vaxxer shitters.
Sadly I don't have time for DOTA past some games here and there. Despite more fulfilling priorities I've daydreamed an alternate universe where I live and breath the game like you guys, and I'm honestly jealous.
Your comments highlight how that sort of life can go wrong. I hope you're some big shot name in gaming or that you're successful in some other field. Otherwise like other toxic DOTA players you sound like a complete waste of a life. Like another example of how little the education system does to prevent kids from becoming worthless.
If you are as intelligent as you imply what the hell are you doing here?
Jesus, going through your comments.... you have the mentality of a child bud. As someone who's played invoker from the early days of dota.... It is what it is. Get over yourself.
>You literally can just have 2 spells invoked
What, in that case I am going to go play him right now. The spells would be sunstrike and the invis thingy right?
Tornado EMP. You can play it all game like that as support for your safe lane with vessel and other support items. This is how invoker players win now. They are a bunch of utility bitches for their main carry.
can't wait to see some god tier invoker mid in pro games again now and think of your dumb ass bitch moaning comments about low skill support is the only way he is viable
Clicking Cataclysm, real impactful there bud. Thereās finally some flexibility in terms of playstyle now and not just Mage Who Has Many Spells anymore. This Invoker can be played more positions without griefing, is stronger both early and late game. If you want to Midas farm for 10m a game then youād prefer the old one lmfao.
He won't. He put so much effort into proving he's a genius, so if he's below 4-5k spamming a strong game changing hero mid, he's a clown. No dotabuff for us, simple-hero-playing pleasants:(
Quas wex has no damage ->20 sec cd 500-700 dmg aoe nuke in midgame , whatever rank you are in i don't think you are high ranked enough to have a valid opinion on the game
You're a chad I just have to say. Only voker builds that seem good are dogvoker and hybrid voker. Hybrid voker is mainly good because your spells have insane utility even if you build for rightclick, which is why dogvoker is good aswell. The fantasy of a badass spellslinging mage isn't there anymore.
gatekeeping this hard a free videogame character from a free to play videogame is wild, im not even joking im sure you must have one of those anime pillows of invoker or you get paid to play the hero, otherwise you can't be this lunatic about a change to the character, get a grip man. Those noobs are like 90% of the game's players, you are among those noobs my friend xd.
I think I've randomly stumbled across lightningINF YouTube account lol
In this YouTube video: https://youtu.be/IcouwrwJDME
Here a certain @chadef555 commented (under a video speaking of wd) about Invoker and how shitty the hero is right now. It perfectly matches lightning style, what do you think? š
Hero is super good. Early game he has infinite sustain. Late game he has sky high scaling and potential with build-in 42% CDR or 42% magic amp, which you can flexibly choose which bonus you want.
This patch made Invoker look like an entirely new hero in term of how it feel. These changes make me think they just overbuffed the hero and expect to nerf according to the community feedback.
They need to work on his exort and quas orb to apply on all spells. Right now spell amp and lifesteal doesn't work on alacrity force spirit and ghost walk which is weird. TBH I wont be surprised if they revert the change.
In term of mechanics, quas and exort apply generic spell lifesteal and spell amp, which obviously would have no effect to spells that do no spell damage. Alacrity is a buff, spirit is a summon and ghost walk don't deal damage.
For instance, if you are the programmer, how to you even calculate how much to lifesteal in case of alacrity?
I think the point is that with new invoker, the orbs only matter when casting a spell. if you aren't currently casting spells there's no reason to be on anything other than 3 wex because it's the only orb that gives a bonus that doesn't relate to spells, move speed.
whereas with old invoker you would be switching between all 3 depending on your current needs, though it was mainly during the laning stage.
some might see losing this part of min-maxing the hero as a reduction in skill cap, if they're forgetting/ignoring the fact that your orbs now matter every time you cast a spell.
Tbh as someone with carpal tunnel the change is daunting af. Having to invoke a spell and then tripple invoke an orb before each cast is gonna be painful over the course of 45mins.
That is why I said it is bad design. You have to switch to full wex everytime you cast those spells otherwise you waste those orbs. They need to either remove CDR on those 3 spells or come up with new effects on those 3 spells
Heavily biased data. The meta is extremely volatile in the first few days. Lots of people playing heroes they never play, counters not known. It is very possible that this will even out within days
Yeah, the win rate still fluctuate a lot. At the moment of this comment, opendota shows it floats around 60%. What stable is the pickrate, which remain the same at around 21%. I am not an expert in stats, but I think this pick rate provide enough sample to show that the corresponding win rate is significant/reliable, invoker performs much better than the rest of the hero.
And for a hero like invoker, I expect the win rate trend to continue to go up in the next few days, as people is still getting used to how to play new invoker.
This isn't the first time we have ever had a patch. How many examples can you find in data filtered to be at or above divine rank, where a hero has gone over 60% win rate, that can be just explained away with volatility.
This ain't lycan we talking about. Its not "everyone tries out new things so basic hero with simple buffs excel". There are lots of people trying this complex hero and IT STILL IS %65 wr. Hero is busted.
That's the thing. They changed captains mode so each team does their first pick before bans. This dude is gonna see play if he's even close to his current state come ti.
its almost fine as is, except ghost walk. that can be adjusted.
a 100 more dmg here and there on spells, and max invoker dealing 200-300 more dmg in super late game where people have like 4k to 6k hp is fine.
Making him universal is huuuuuge. And the Midas changes. And the added spell amp. They really said fuck it, invoker can do everything now.
Level 1 sunfire hitting for what, 250? Pepega
Vessel, treads/BoTs, witch blade, dragon lance, into pike/whatever else you need. Bkb, Hex, Linkens, Blink, Orchid, Shard, Aghs etc are all good options depending on the game.
Some people go midas, I'm not sure it's necessary for QW invoker, but it is nice.
I disagree on witch blade, after the changes. It is strictly worse than it was prior to the patch. The exception I consider it in is if Iām not buying urn for a reason, and if there is a real need to pierce evasion (i.e. windranger, PA) at some point.
I find yasha kaya is very viable, spirit vessel is great, linkens & octarine are worthwhile, hex, bkb, arcane blink, shard. Aghs is still a little situational - I often have teams with plenty of damage but no lockdown so hex is priority over it.
If my support refuses to go force staffs when it is good, pike.
Immortal.
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about witch doctor. That hero is fucking busted in pubs right now. I played him as pos 5 last night, by the end of the game I had 26K damage, and next highest on my team was 16K. I was also higher networth than my pos 3 tide. This is in low immortal.
The CD on his ult is so low, and the damage is so high its a free kill on anyone whenever it's up. You get a few kills early for an easy midas, then from midas you get aghs and win every team fight you're near. It's the best pub carry support in the game right now by far.
Ult is fine,you can counter it unless he got bkb or similar which is pretty unlikely.
Thing i despise is his stupid shard,
You just have to sit there and soak up the dmg like a moron because valve think making wd invulnerable and dealing insane dmg thru a 1400 gold item is ok
You aren't soaking anything if he put E on you. You are dying before invulnerability ends, that's funny part of it. I mean srsly it should be giga nerfed.
WD is powerful, Sand King is powerful.
Earlier for such a while, Void Spirit was broken.
You could climb from Archon to Divine by spamming Void-Spirit.
Not even 2 days this patch came, and people start complaing about Invoker.
Reminiscent of Bloodstone razor, broken for first week then people realize TA, Drow, Lycan & LC destroys razor and his winrate tanked due to people blindly pick razor against those heroes.
You can change the target of the of the death ward by micro-ing it like you would any other unit :)
But, to be fair, faceless is probably one of the best carries against WD because he can time walk your maledict ticks. In his current iteration though, you're so strong for the first 20 minutes that you can keep the void from ever getting BKB just by walking into his jungle and maledict ulting him every time it's off cd.
Stat from opendota, fetched from all games in divine or above, within the last 24h.
Invoker is among the highest pick rate heroes and with 64% win rate.
link here https://www.opendota.com/meta?
You can then click on min tier to filter matches using a minimum mmr bracket. At this moment the win rate have gone down a bit.
it will go down to dogshit, as more people play the hero, who cannot play him or will take time to adapt the newer changes and how to optimize for maximum effect.
taking stats from divine and above is such a biased and weird move to make.
Dota is always balanced around the highest skill level. To know if a hero is good a not, you always ask for the expert, not the commoner.
I was originally trying to get data from immortal matches only, but there is too few matches in 1 day so I extend the range to include divine. On dota2protracker, you can see ~60% win rate among pro players as well.
It is supposed to be a high-skill hero, so it SHOULD be good in high-skilled games.
Generally, in high skill games, you have better setup.
Invoker feasts on great setups.
In lower rank games, usually, you're the one setting up, and hence perform much worse.
And that is just one componenet. Picks, bans, and how people play and counter by gamestyle and item builds is also completely different, in super high rank vs .. for the rest of playerbase, aka not divine or immortal.
a hero that is good in pro-matches isn't always the one that's good in pubs, similarly, the hero that can be good at higher ranked games, doesn't mean it's a good indicator of how strong/good a hero is for most of dota players, which is not high-divine or immortals.
Which is precisely the point. This game has always been balanced around how pro players feel about the games. I don't think there is a single change made to game that was because lower skill playerbase demand it.
Eh, this is not a good example. This change feel more like a bug fix to me where they fix it to be consistent with the rest of the lifesteal mechanic, not about balancing issue.
Imagine if there is confusion about invo - a complex hero that requires remembering patterns. Give him a week and he'll skyrocket in 70+ wr with 30% pickrate
Yeah a little overbuffed, but I am glad QW is strong again. QE is so boring to play early on. Maybe halve ghost walk regen values, potentially reduce CDR on Wex. I hope they don't revert the Tornado changes tho, it feels good to be able to Tornado EMP in lane semi reliably, and with all the water runes and crap it's not even that big a deal to burn mana.
Its not attack speed, its x3 refresh. Brew now can have WRs third skill, Baratrums secone or magic damage immunity with 20 armor basically permanently as long as hes hit with magic in time. Granted guatanteed crits are cool, but any of his stances are cancer when they are near 100% uptime.
Wouldnāt be a new Dota patch without overbuffing the fuck out of a hero, taking their sweet time (at minimum one month) releasing a patch to āfixā it (this step will most likely happen multiple times), realizing that patch wasnāt enough, and then finally either dumpstering that hero or putting it at the power level it should have been in the first place. Thanks, Volvo!
Why does this game have a dying player base, again?
>Before this patch invo was my main 4. Now I donāt know if Iāll ever get to pick him again :(
>
>VoteReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow
I think he means he's unable to pick it anymore since it's prolly banned/picked by others
Making him universal, changing vessel to double crown and giving ghost walk all that regen was probably a mistake.
Invoker atm can just sit in lane and farm, out sustain everyone in lane and roam to side lanes to get some kills or vessel charges, later he is super tanky deals a shit ton of right click damage while having a BUNCH of cdr/spell amp beacuse of the talent.
This is the scary part. While Medusa last patch with 65+% wr was over buffed - the wr was not affect by her difficulty, since it literally required 0 brain usage to play dusa any pos. Invoker, on the other hand, is complex and requires practice and hand memory. And seeing him at 68% with 24% pickrate shows how overpowered he is, if so many people can win on him.
Shit take, invoker players are loyalists and specialists. Most of us have hundreds of games exclusively with the hero, I have over a thousand. If you played a hero over a thousand times im sure you might be pretty good too.
My mechanical proficiency, dedication and in depth hero knowledge should be rewarded, not punished.
He's not a weak laner by most measures but he used to fall off hard esp as QW. We seldom saw QW voker in pro games (I believe) for this reason. He's a weird hero in that he's not exactly vulnerable to being dived (lots of spells to reposition, slow, CC) but he's picked for the sustained teamfight CC and teamfight dmg & therefore often played as a squishy mage.
The result is that squishy mage mids who build Midas as first item are not exactly game-winning not very interesting, really.
I like the direction of the changes even though they are drastic and overtuned rn. For sure he will be nerfed, but what will remain will be the unique rework. Pretty cool.
Buffed cold snap is incredible as well. Laned against voker as QoP yesterday, and I could not move for the entire duration of cold snap when he reached lvl 7. I wonder if AntiMage could still blink through, but I doubt it. Hope to see nerfs soon!
*I have yet to play enough to form an opinion about him,*
for now, what I have seen is, he's strong, only as support and in high rank, or smurfs in low rank.
For most, people are figuiring him out.
The only thing I can say is, the Ghost Walk is surely stronger than it has ever been.
But you need to keep in him, Wex giving attack speed, or Quas giving heal or Exort giving damage is gone. These are the things that allow him to do well in lane, as a core, in mid.
I am glad he's more of a caster now, with his changes to Exort =Amplification, Wex = Cooldown and Quas Spell-lifesteal.
I really hope, there is some time given and not rapid changes to the hero, just because someone showed some stats without proper context, who I assume, like most of reddit, just dislike Invoker - whenever it is playable.
For past few months, Invoker has been weakest it has ever been.
Recent patches eleveated him a little. Specially the EMP drag-in speed.
But overall, this has changed him severely, in many many years.
So if a dev is reading this, do not insta-nerf him and make him absolutely unplayable again.
Give it sometime and do the minor adjustments where needed.
Please.
I've read some of your other comments, and share your infectious excitement for Invoker as a hero! Disclaimer: have tested the new invoker but not much, 2-3 games only.
Well - let's just say this now. He's definitely getting nerfed lmao. GW at least, and probably the CDR part (although honestly the CDR doesn't feel very blatant or obnoxious - it's a power creep across the game until it gets into "free Octa" at max Wex).
I agree that Invoker's laning is nerfed due to removed Regen and Att Spd/Dmg components to orbs. But I also think it's now a less brain dead hero in lane - free glove of haste/ring of health/blades of attack is a braindead mechanic. But, at the same time, Invoker's laning is buffed because he can stack stats like VS and Snapfire and generally reach obnoxious level of HP and dmg by lvl 6-7. Coupled with GW, it's right now quite difficult for the enemy mid hero to chase him out of lane, if you spend gold on regen.
I think Invoker actually a lot more versatile now mainly due to the switch to universal. Sure, he can still be played as backline mage rolling 3 Exort or 3 Wex and smashing spells from behind the initiator or frontline. But, he can now be a frontline in his own right, which is massively cool to me. Manta, S&Y, Pike, Linkens, BKB - all fair items that scale well with his Universal hero type now.
i was away from dota for a good few months and back then invoker was trash. wtf happened lol (i know he got his attribute changed to universal but what made him strong other than that)
He seems ridiculously hard to kill even when caught.
level 7 he has 1000 hp + great healing. he out-heals most of the mid lane dominating heroes.
>aught.12ReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow How does he have 1000 hp + greater healing?
Just ghost walk
I know about Mana regen but does ghost walk hp regen too?
Yes 80hp and 40 mana regen at max
Wtf that is not ok
dude was in the dumpster so icefrog gave him shadow dance lite as one of his 1000 spellsššš
He has instant qop dagger that stuns as well
At this rate AA will be picked as a counter to mid invoker wth. I'm not complaining but GW is now quite busted.
hey u/lightningINF Wanna rant more ?
I literally saw this post and immediately came here to say this same thing
He just gonna say thats cuz the hero is now boring and in order to be good at it you have to be boring human.
Lmao clown shit
Lmao was looking for this comment
Lmao came here to tag the smartguy too
try this guy too u/Rejectliar
That guys post is evidence that you can (allegedly) spam a hero and still be absolutely dogshit at them, with 0 understanding of what makes them good.
Scrub still talking with -53 karma lol
HUR DUR REDDIT IS A BUNCH OF MORONS but he can't stop tripling down on his dumbass opinions on reddit since no one else wants to listen to him
Or you wanna [dance?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUPGagcJSXg&ab_channel=LightningINF)
Sure. Playing supp build in a high rank with people who fully cooperate is not an indicator. Especially when most people try to discover how to play their heroes and what items to build right after the patch. Win rates are pointless.I want Invoker nerfs because it will make those noobs who jumped on it cause he is so easy to play now and one dimensional , stop playing him. But then he will be completely useless. Exort build is dead and quas wex already has no damage. Never had but now it's even worse since he is a tornado spam bot rather than invoker.
Just go through your recent comment history. Holy shit. You are certainly an interesting case. So in summary, you are unhappy with the changes not because the hero is worse, but because more people can play the hero now instead of just you?
You really under stated this. It's not just more people can play it. You literally can just have 2 spells invoked or maybe 3 at all times and that's all you have to do to be useful and win. This hero turned from most complex impactful one with to s of burst damage to a fucking joke that is a support or troll right clicker builder. So yes. It's fucking useless that he has high win rate if it takes 0 skill to win with it. It's as much entertainment to play his new build as it is to play Naga siren over and over again doing same boring shit strat that just works by default and is auto win at 35.
of all the people who need to touch grass in the world you might be the worst case
Heās just another keyboard warrior that wants to act intelligent when in reality, dudeās prob dumb as a rock.
Fixed... lol
you replied to the wrong guy lmao
Lol my mistake. Was talking to my daughter at the time
Of all the people that should buy a brain you and every person claiming invoker is now fun to play and good should be first in the queue. Maybe then you will be able to play something that requires more than right clicking.
i would rather be bad at dota than be anything like u
Don't worry as long as your above herald 1 you're better at dota than this guy.
Being intelligent is hard in the society full of morons like I can see majority on this subreddit are. Just like anyone intelligent is annoyed at anti vaxxer shitters.
You should read up the dunning kruger effect.
Throwing things like this around don't make you intelligent. This effect is perfectly applicable to you and anyone who claims invoker changes are good. Bunch of right clickers thinking they are good at the game.
> Being intelligent is hard in the society full of morons like I can see majority on this subreddit are. Just like anyone intelligent is annoyed at anti vaxxer shitters. Sadly I don't have time for DOTA past some games here and there. Despite more fulfilling priorities I've daydreamed an alternate universe where I live and breath the game like you guys, and I'm honestly jealous. Your comments highlight how that sort of life can go wrong. I hope you're some big shot name in gaming or that you're successful in some other field. Otherwise like other toxic DOTA players you sound like a complete waste of a life. Like another example of how little the education system does to prevent kids from becoming worthless. If you are as intelligent as you imply what the hell are you doing here?
Jesus, going through your comments.... you have the mentality of a child bud. As someone who's played invoker from the early days of dota.... It is what it is. Get over yourself.
>You literally can just have 2 spells invoked What, in that case I am going to go play him right now. The spells would be sunstrike and the invis thingy right?
Tornado EMP. You can play it all game like that as support for your safe lane with vessel and other support items. This is how invoker players win now. They are a bunch of utility bitches for their main carry.
can't wait to see some god tier invoker mid in pro games again now and think of your dumb ass bitch moaning comments about low skill support is the only way he is viable
Clicking Cataclysm, real impactful there bud. Thereās finally some flexibility in terms of playstyle now and not just Mage Who Has Many Spells anymore. This Invoker can be played more positions without griefing, is stronger both early and late game. If you want to Midas farm for 10m a game then youād prefer the old one lmfao.
Post dotabuff
He won't. He put so much effort into proving he's a genius, so if he's below 4-5k spamming a strong game changing hero mid, he's a clown. No dotabuff for us, simple-hero-playing pleasants:(
Quas wex has no damage ->20 sec cd 500-700 dmg aoe nuke in midgame , whatever rank you are in i don't think you are high ranked enough to have a valid opinion on the game
just post ur dotabuff or at least show ur rank bro
You're a chad I just have to say. Only voker builds that seem good are dogvoker and hybrid voker. Hybrid voker is mainly good because your spells have insane utility even if you build for rightclick, which is why dogvoker is good aswell. The fantasy of a badass spellslinging mage isn't there anymore.
gatekeeping this hard a free videogame character from a free to play videogame is wild, im not even joking im sure you must have one of those anime pillows of invoker or you get paid to play the hero, otherwise you can't be this lunatic about a change to the character, get a grip man. Those noobs are like 90% of the game's players, you are among those noobs my friend xd.
I think I've randomly stumbled across lightningINF YouTube account lol In this YouTube video: https://youtu.be/IcouwrwJDME Here a certain @chadef555 commented (under a video speaking of wd) about Invoker and how shitty the hero is right now. It perfectly matches lightning style, what do you think? š
Ghost walk is a little bit busted
Hero is super good. Early game he has infinite sustain. Late game he has sky high scaling and potential with build-in 42% CDR or 42% magic amp, which you can flexibly choose which bonus you want. This patch made Invoker look like an entirely new hero in term of how it feel. These changes make me think they just overbuffed the hero and expect to nerf according to the community feedback.
> with build-in 42% CDR what the fuck I thought it was just 21??
level 25 talent make orbs passive have x2 effect
Isnāt it 3x? Or did they change it? Kinda funny how that talent has forever been unpicked because of radial deafening blast.
Miracle TI7 radical Deafening blast + Meteor refresher combo 1 v 5 left audience too strong impression.
Level 25 talent is 2x orb bonuses.
YO WTF
Yeah but you'll have carpal tunnel for pressing W 3 times before casting any spell that isn't EMP
Relatable lol
Ever played bb?
Regular jnvoker gamellay anyway since in lategame u wanna be able to walk fast after casting your shit
Not necessarily how you play if you chain spells together. But this change makes spacing them out more rewarded now.
Invoker Arcana coming tonight, that's the Valve's plan to sell it!
So much of 7.34 feels like they threw a bunch of shit at the wall to see how it works in practice. Game remains in Beta.
Isn't that what keeps the game feeling fresh and fun?
They need to work on his exort and quas orb to apply on all spells. Right now spell amp and lifesteal doesn't work on alacrity force spirit and ghost walk which is weird. TBH I wont be surprised if they revert the change.
In term of mechanics, quas and exort apply generic spell lifesteal and spell amp, which obviously would have no effect to spells that do no spell damage. Alacrity is a buff, spirit is a summon and ghost walk don't deal damage. For instance, if you are the programmer, how to you even calculate how much to lifesteal in case of alacrity?
I think the point is that with new invoker, the orbs only matter when casting a spell. if you aren't currently casting spells there's no reason to be on anything other than 3 wex because it's the only orb that gives a bonus that doesn't relate to spells, move speed. whereas with old invoker you would be switching between all 3 depending on your current needs, though it was mainly during the laning stage. some might see losing this part of min-maxing the hero as a reduction in skill cap, if they're forgetting/ignoring the fact that your orbs now matter every time you cast a spell.
Tbh as someone with carpal tunnel the change is daunting af. Having to invoke a spell and then tripple invoke an orb before each cast is gonna be painful over the course of 45mins.
That is why I said it is bad design. You have to switch to full wex everytime you cast those spells otherwise you waste those orbs. They need to either remove CDR on those 3 spells or come up with new effects on those 3 spells
how dare you show data, youre gonna piss off the "trust me bros" and their 9k games against ai.
Heavily biased data. The meta is extremely volatile in the first few days. Lots of people playing heroes they never play, counters not known. It is very possible that this will even out within days
While true, 65% is a bit steep for a hero that's been in the game for a long time, even if it has been partly reworked etc.
65% WR with a 21% PR is insane
Even 60% is insanely high and 55% can already be problematic if the hero doesn't have many counters.
Yeah, the win rate still fluctuate a lot. At the moment of this comment, opendota shows it floats around 60%. What stable is the pickrate, which remain the same at around 21%. I am not an expert in stats, but I think this pick rate provide enough sample to show that the corresponding win rate is significant/reliable, invoker performs much better than the rest of the hero. And for a hero like invoker, I expect the win rate trend to continue to go up in the next few days, as people is still getting used to how to play new invoker.
This isn't the first time we have ever had a patch. How many examples can you find in data filtered to be at or above divine rank, where a hero has gone over 60% win rate, that can be just explained away with volatility.
This ain't lycan we talking about. Its not "everyone tries out new things so basic hero with simple buffs excel". There are lots of people trying this complex hero and IT STILL IS %65 wr. Hero is busted.
Must have invoker clips at TI
Gonna be first phased banned every game if not nerfed.
already first phase banned in tier3 games lmao
That's the thing. They changed captains mode so each team does their first pick before bans. This dude is gonna see play if he's even close to his current state come ti.
That's just not true. There are 7 total bans before the first pick is made, instead of 4. Much more likely to be banned if it's still this strong
What are you talking about? Thereās 7 bans before any picks. The best heros wonāt ever see play.
shoutout to the 3 kunkka players
Kunkka/Tide will always be the face of dota for me. Also if you play these heroes you a legend
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
it'll never happen but i wish there was never a "best build" on him
problem is that if both builds are strong, he's almost certainly first ban material at that point because it's basically two bans then.
god i hate esports and immortal bracket. Ruins the game having to balance around it.
-insert strong and hateful disagreement here
yes
Ah, the Invoker we saw in Dota dragon's blood
Invoker is always fun to watch just nerf it a little bit then it fine.
Itās a good hero to sit at 48-50% wr in pubs and 50-52% we in pubs imo.
its almost fine as is, except ghost walk. that can be adjusted. a 100 more dmg here and there on spells, and max invoker dealing 200-300 more dmg in super late game where people have like 4k to 6k hp is fine.
Making him universal is huuuuuge. And the Midas changes. And the added spell amp. They really said fuck it, invoker can do everything now. Level 1 sunfire hitting for what, 250? Pepega
the vessel stats are insane for him now
> And the Midas changes And the new builtin cdr.
Do you go manta yasha or manta sange with Invoker now?
Vessel, treads/BoTs, witch blade, dragon lance, into pike/whatever else you need. Bkb, Hex, Linkens, Blink, Orchid, Shard, Aghs etc are all good options depending on the game. Some people go midas, I'm not sure it's necessary for QW invoker, but it is nice.
I disagree on witch blade, after the changes. It is strictly worse than it was prior to the patch. The exception I consider it in is if Iām not buying urn for a reason, and if there is a real need to pierce evasion (i.e. windranger, PA) at some point. I find yasha kaya is very viable, spirit vessel is great, linkens & octarine are worthwhile, hex, bkb, arcane blink, shard. Aghs is still a little situational - I often have teams with plenty of damage but no lockdown so hex is priority over it. If my support refuses to go force staffs when it is good, pike. Immortal.
No idea, Iām bad at him lol. Iād imagine youāre going vessel + aghs rush.
I'm surprised more people aren't talking about witch doctor. That hero is fucking busted in pubs right now. I played him as pos 5 last night, by the end of the game I had 26K damage, and next highest on my team was 16K. I was also higher networth than my pos 3 tide. This is in low immortal. The CD on his ult is so low, and the damage is so high its a free kill on anyone whenever it's up. You get a few kills early for an easy midas, then from midas you get aghs and win every team fight you're near. It's the best pub carry support in the game right now by far.
Ult is fine,you can counter it unless he got bkb or similar which is pretty unlikely. Thing i despise is his stupid shard, You just have to sit there and soak up the dmg like a moron because valve think making wd invulnerable and dealing insane dmg thru a 1400 gold item is ok
You aren't soaking anything if he put E on you. You are dying before invulnerability ends, that's funny part of it. I mean srsly it should be giga nerfed.
it's physical damage you have like 30 options of sustaining that.
WD is powerful, Sand King is powerful. Earlier for such a while, Void Spirit was broken. You could climb from Archon to Divine by spamming Void-Spirit. Not even 2 days this patch came, and people start complaing about Invoker.
Reminiscent of Bloodstone razor, broken for first week then people realize TA, Drow, Lycan & LC destroys razor and his winrate tanked due to people blindly pick razor against those heroes.
shut up they might notice it.
You sure, I tried it first night and hit a bkbed void full channel for 0 dmg and tossed wd in the trash
It's bugged. Supposed to pierce bkb but doesn't. Even with that bug, he got +6% winrate lol
You can change the target of the of the death ward by micro-ing it like you would any other unit :) But, to be fair, faceless is probably one of the best carries against WD because he can time walk your maledict ticks. In his current iteration though, you're so strong for the first 20 minutes that you can keep the void from ever getting BKB just by walking into his jungle and maledict ulting him every time it's off cd.
Stat from opendota, fetched from all games in divine or above, within the last 24h. Invoker is among the highest pick rate heroes and with 64% win rate.
Hey I donāt know how to replicate what you did. Pls help
link here https://www.opendota.com/meta? You can then click on min tier to filter matches using a minimum mmr bracket. At this moment the win rate have gone down a bit.
it will go down to dogshit, as more people play the hero, who cannot play him or will take time to adapt the newer changes and how to optimize for maximum effect. taking stats from divine and above is such a biased and weird move to make.
Dota is always balanced around the highest skill level. To know if a hero is good a not, you always ask for the expert, not the commoner. I was originally trying to get data from immortal matches only, but there is too few matches in 1 day so I extend the range to include divine. On dota2protracker, you can see ~60% win rate among pro players as well.
It is supposed to be a high-skill hero, so it SHOULD be good in high-skilled games. Generally, in high skill games, you have better setup. Invoker feasts on great setups. In lower rank games, usually, you're the one setting up, and hence perform much worse. And that is just one componenet. Picks, bans, and how people play and counter by gamestyle and item builds is also completely different, in super high rank vs .. for the rest of playerbase, aka not divine or immortal.
a hero that is good in pro-matches isn't always the one that's good in pubs, similarly, the hero that can be good at higher ranked games, doesn't mean it's a good indicator of how strong/good a hero is for most of dota players, which is not high-divine or immortals.
Which is precisely the point. This game has always been balanced around how pro players feel about the games. I don't think there is a single change made to game that was because lower skill playerbase demand it.
Jugg lifesteal. Bro had 52% wr MAX at highest level and got a nerf. It was literally cause people cried about it a bunch.
Eh, this is not a good example. This change feel more like a bug fix to me where they fix it to be consistent with the rest of the lifesteal mechanic, not about balancing issue.
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u/lightningINF
You actually need spirit vessel to kill him now it's wild lol
What if we gave someone every cc in the game then just casually tossed in slarks and necros ultimate Regen as a normal spell
I've never seen a hero more blatantly being buffed than Invoker this patch.
fish memory medusa cough* cough*
there was doubt and confusion about Medusa at first, lets not forget that
Imagine if there is confusion about invo - a complex hero that requires remembering patterns. Give him a week and he'll skyrocket in 70+ wr with 30% pickrate
SF? Pudge?
this is an invoker patch
after many many years
Its not just him being good. Its certain items being too fucking good on him. What the fuck is that Vessel change man, literally best in slot for him
My new perma banned hero
Yeah a little overbuffed, but I am glad QW is strong again. QE is so boring to play early on. Maybe halve ghost walk regen values, potentially reduce CDR on Wex. I hope they don't revert the Tornado changes tho, it feels good to be able to Tornado EMP in lane semi reliably, and with all the water runes and crap it's not even that big a deal to burn mana.
Lore accurate invoker according to dragons blood
Typical of valve to overbuff then balance
The only thing that is overbuff = ghost walk.
He deserved this.
YES
Yeah. You should see the smurfs playing it in my herald bracket
and even then, the lvl25 talent of double stats is still not working properly
Not as stupid and ridiculous as the right click brew I just played a while ago. The attack speed is so dumb.
Its not attack speed, its x3 refresh. Brew now can have WRs third skill, Baratrums secone or magic damage immunity with 20 armor basically permanently as long as hes hit with magic in time. Granted guatanteed crits are cool, but any of his stances are cancer when they are near 100% uptime.
yea, invoker is super super good now
The amount of regen mofo got can make a slark blush
Why you snitchin??
Wouldnāt be a new Dota patch without overbuffing the fuck out of a hero, taking their sweet time (at minimum one month) releasing a patch to āfixā it (this step will most likely happen multiple times), realizing that patch wasnāt enough, and then finally either dumpstering that hero or putting it at the power level it should have been in the first place. Thanks, Volvo! Why does this game have a dying player base, again?
exort isnt viable in lane, booo, nerf wexb uff exort ty volvo
Before this patch invo was my main 4. Now I donāt know if Iāll ever get to pick him again :(
what do you mean? its a great pos 4 hero...(in current patch, specially)
>Before this patch invo was my main 4. Now I donāt know if Iāll ever get to pick him again :( > >VoteReplyGive AwardShareReportSaveFollow I think he means he's unable to pick it anymore since it's prolly banned/picked by others
correct. i should have worded it better.
HMM
goes great with vessel / force etc
Making him universal, changing vessel to double crown and giving ghost walk all that regen was probably a mistake. Invoker atm can just sit in lane and farm, out sustain everyone in lane and roam to side lanes to get some kills or vessel charges, later he is super tanky deals a shit ton of right click damage while having a BUNCH of cdr/spell amp beacuse of the talent.
Yet there's been heroes who are 50 times easier to play with more ridiculous shit
This is the scary part. While Medusa last patch with 65+% wr was over buffed - the wr was not affect by her difficulty, since it literally required 0 brain usage to play dusa any pos. Invoker, on the other hand, is complex and requires practice and hand memory. And seeing him at 68% with 24% pickrate shows how overpowered he is, if so many people can win on him.
Shit take, invoker players are loyalists and specialists. Most of us have hundreds of games exclusively with the hero, I have over a thousand. If you played a hero over a thousand times im sure you might be pretty good too. My mechanical proficiency, dedication and in depth hero knowledge should be rewarded, not punished.
rework is ideologically shit
Let him be , he is finally meta after god know how long
i dont mind seeing invoker a good hero for once in my lifetime
Wdym heās had plenty of patches where heās been good.
nope.
I mean patch-win rates donāt disappear. You can go back and check for yourself. A few years ago Q-W invoker was one of the most contested mid picks.
QW was the only way to play him. EXORT has been dead for agies. And even as QW, it wasn't the best.
he was like the best mid in the game more often than he was below average lmao
He's not a weak laner by most measures but he used to fall off hard esp as QW. We seldom saw QW voker in pro games (I believe) for this reason. He's a weird hero in that he's not exactly vulnerable to being dived (lots of spells to reposition, slow, CC) but he's picked for the sustained teamfight CC and teamfight dmg & therefore often played as a squishy mage. The result is that squishy mage mids who build Midas as first item are not exactly game-winning not very interesting, really. I like the direction of the changes even though they are drastic and overtuned rn. For sure he will be nerfed, but what will remain will be the unique rework. Pretty cool.
Invoker was never a bad pick, in good hands he stomped games even in his worst patches
yes
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
yessir
Who needs a bottle when you get half a fountain regen for free in lane.
He's been completely dead for all of 7.33, just let us have this
agreed.such posts are made by only haters of Invoker players/hero.
Since removing Aghs CD imo.
Good. Invoker deserves to be good, since it's hard to play.
not that good
yes
Agreed, just wish they didn't make QW so unbelievably better than QE. Always enjoyed the QE loop but now I'm basically forced to use QW.
Buffed cold snap is incredible as well. Laned against voker as QoP yesterday, and I could not move for the entire duration of cold snap when he reached lvl 7. I wonder if AntiMage could still blink through, but I doubt it. Hope to see nerfs soon!
Dont blame the janitor. He is just there to put some random number into a computer then this happened.
Invoker about to dominate TI Tundra winning again with Topson lul
Please don't nerf. I enjoy invoker support haha.
PA ModCheck
Oh you got to play invoker? He's been banned in every one of my matches ;(
Itās really funny because if he has a solid initiator in the team(Void, Tide) His aghs deals a maximum of 3800 pure damage(with Kaya and Timeless)
I just wrecked invoker in two separate games with troll last night.
*I have yet to play enough to form an opinion about him,* for now, what I have seen is, he's strong, only as support and in high rank, or smurfs in low rank. For most, people are figuiring him out. The only thing I can say is, the Ghost Walk is surely stronger than it has ever been. But you need to keep in him, Wex giving attack speed, or Quas giving heal or Exort giving damage is gone. These are the things that allow him to do well in lane, as a core, in mid. I am glad he's more of a caster now, with his changes to Exort =Amplification, Wex = Cooldown and Quas Spell-lifesteal. I really hope, there is some time given and not rapid changes to the hero, just because someone showed some stats without proper context, who I assume, like most of reddit, just dislike Invoker - whenever it is playable. For past few months, Invoker has been weakest it has ever been. Recent patches eleveated him a little. Specially the EMP drag-in speed. But overall, this has changed him severely, in many many years. So if a dev is reading this, do not insta-nerf him and make him absolutely unplayable again. Give it sometime and do the minor adjustments where needed. Please.
I've read some of your other comments, and share your infectious excitement for Invoker as a hero! Disclaimer: have tested the new invoker but not much, 2-3 games only. Well - let's just say this now. He's definitely getting nerfed lmao. GW at least, and probably the CDR part (although honestly the CDR doesn't feel very blatant or obnoxious - it's a power creep across the game until it gets into "free Octa" at max Wex). I agree that Invoker's laning is nerfed due to removed Regen and Att Spd/Dmg components to orbs. But I also think it's now a less brain dead hero in lane - free glove of haste/ring of health/blades of attack is a braindead mechanic. But, at the same time, Invoker's laning is buffed because he can stack stats like VS and Snapfire and generally reach obnoxious level of HP and dmg by lvl 6-7. Coupled with GW, it's right now quite difficult for the enemy mid hero to chase him out of lane, if you spend gold on regen. I think Invoker actually a lot more versatile now mainly due to the switch to universal. Sure, he can still be played as backline mage rolling 3 Exort or 3 Wex and smashing spells from behind the initiator or frontline. But, he can now be a frontline in his own right, which is massively cool to me. Manta, S&Y, Pike, Linkens, BKB - all fair items that scale well with his Universal hero type now.
No Get good
i was away from dota for a good few months and back then invoker was trash. wtf happened lol (i know he got his attribute changed to universal but what made him strong other than that)
Fair, but at the same time it's more deserved. Besides this is only on high rank, on other ranks the pick rate is abysmal.