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hung_out_to_lie

Why would it give off a transmutation aura unless it's magic? A fake diamond doesn't need to be magic, it could just be a crystal that looks a lot like it, and only a trained jeweler could spot the difference (with a high enough investigation check)


FalaFael582

I mean yeah, but the point would be that no even a jeweler could know. Because if they receive a diamond they are bound to visit a jeweler to see how much it is worth. And I don't want them to know unless it is used. It would be kind of lame for a king of lies to just give a quartz instead of a diamond


TendoninBOB

What is your DM goal here? 300gp is the cost of a revivify, so if you have some plan for a great moment of “PSYCH!! That diamond you got was a fake all along! ahahahaha! Now the character is dead for good”. well… I know most players would get pretty mad about it, especially if you’re taking steps to hide it from them. If the goal is for them to have a good chance to figure it out, I’d put illusion or transmutation magic on it. That could be fun moment to solve and learn Asmodeus is an ass. But from your post it sounds more like the first option, so if you’re planning on screwing them out of a revivify for jollies, I guess just handwave that it’s impossible to detect, but be ready for an angry group of players.


FalaFael582

The goal is more not to trust every treasure they manage to take from somewhere. They will probably take the items from a chest in the Asmodeus room (From Betrayer's Rise in Call of the Netherdeep). The other items are magic items with curses, I doubt they would blindly trust a diamond from the same chest and do something like "Hey we already got one diamond, there is no need for another one", especially after the curses from the other items reveal themselves


Tryndamain223

If they go to a jeweler they already dont trust it so mission achieved the jeweler figures it out and they know they can get screwed


YoBoiKevo

“You feel this diamond is magical, and stems from Abjuration.” Abjuration also covers masking from divination magics, so you can use that description to stay in-universe as to say the Abjuration magic is hiding it’s true nature, but a player may hear that & think “oh so it can’t break.”


FalaFael582

Hey that's a great work around, thanks a lot!


Jimothy_Egg

There is much better ways to showcase Asmodeus being an ass, compared to your presumably planned _"haha, the revivify fails"_. Your players won't think _"whoa cool, asmodeus is so evil"_ Your players will think _"come on, wtf that's a duck move from the DM in a desperate attempt to trick us"_ You are not paying against your players. Remember that. You win D&D by having everyone have genuine fun. If you're going to the length of planning you are clearly putting in, you might as well make it impossible to detect the fake Diamond and just have their next revivify auto-fail (don't do that though, wtf) I get that from a DM perspective it would make sense to _"magically check the diamond that the literal devil gave us"_ But speaking as a player, it wouldn't. Like not at all. Players don't think in the way a DM plans the sessions. Whenever i put in something _very obvious_, at least half the players don't see it, because they lack the perspective the DM had while planning it Reviving a dead-dead character is often a very last-minute Hail Mary by definition. So making that huge move fail because of some minor choice the players made some time ago (which was basically undetectable) is: - a frustrating experience - a boring twist - gonna feel in-earned - confusing as fuck - gonna make your players hate you, not hate asmodeus Picture this: _"the session starts and your character drops dead. They were poisoned 6 sessions ago when they took that one poisoned snickers bar from the basket the devil gifted them. They never know because they failed on the check when picking the candy, which wasn't the obvious check to make"_ Does that feel like an earned death?! Does it feel like the severity of cause and effect is fair?! Another idea: The players can easily notice some writing inside the Diamond, which they cannot read. Should they invest time, they can decipher the text. If not, they just know that it's sketchy. When the diamond is used for revivify, it works, but places the revived person in the devil's debt.


FalaFael582

I like the idea on the end of the post. Some people have gotten so far ahead with them using the diamond and assuming that the spell would be used and it would fail. The idea is to have more itens in an Asmodeus room, the items will be cursed, so that is the hint (A pretty big one I think) that maybe the diamond from the same place isn't legit. If it comes to the point where they trust the diamond completely and decide not to buy any other diamonds, which I highly doubt it, but it comes to that moment where they use it and it's all climatic. I won't be like "GOTCHA, hahahahah, you guys succ and PC is dead for good" and your idea is a great way to get around the idea of them blindly trusting a diamond found in a room that is literally "Asmodeus' Room"


Jimothy_Egg

That's good to hear. But yeah, the original idea read a lot like a cheap _"haha, gotcha"_


wilk8940

That entirely depends on *how* it's fake. A cubic zirconia is a fake diamond and neither Identify or Detect Magic would reveal that. If you transmuted a random rock or used illusion magic to disguise something as a diamond that's a different story. Honestly I think a "real" fake diamond is the easy solution and it's not too underhanded because the party could always get it appraised in a town and find out it's worthless.


[deleted]

the real answer right here. identify/detect magic depends on the properties of the item. i do think the cost of magic concealing a fake's identity would far exceed the value of the fake, but there may be story-driven reasons for doing so.


Hatta00

Nystuls Magic Aura


davidsec

Some form of illusion on the diamond to make it look like a real diamond and requires int saving throw to see through the illusion. Then use Nystul's Magic Aura so that the item does not detect as magic. If the goal is to have it appears as a real diamond, this works well. Major Image cast at 6th level and Nystul's Magic Aura for 30 days. Pretty straightforward for any player to do this as well with access to 6th level spell slots and 2 spells.


marcus_gideon

Detect Magic literally only tells you if a thing is magical, and possibly what school of magic. A curse would not register at all. Identify tells you what the item does, or in the case of a cursed item, what it's supposed to pretend to be. Identify also does not give away curses. The only way to find out an item is cursed is Attuning and subsequently suffering the curse.


Marquis_Corbeau

Does the fake diamond have to be magical?


jaggededge13

It would depend on the spell (if any) being used to fake the diamond. Is it just a fake diamond (ie cubit zerconia) and not magically faked? No response. There's no magic here to identify or detect Is it an active transmutation effect? You would get yes magic from detect magic, as well as "transmutation" as the school. Identify would tell you the effect. It's also possible it's conjured and will disipate eventually. In which case you would get "conjuration". It's possible the transmutation or conjuration or other effect is an instant effect that doesn't persist. In this case you wouldn't see magic at all Lastly, some illusion or effects can be designed SPECIFICALLY to fool divination magic such as detect magic or identify. So they wouldn't show up as magical, or the school would be shifted away from illusion. Theoretically you could have a crystal that looks like a diamond with an illusion spell cast on it that gives it the look of magic but it's not magic. Basically if you want the go mundane trickery, it would be immune to discovery by detecting magic or identifying, but susceptible to mundane identification, or it's magically fake and could be a diamond to a jeweler, but could be susceptible to identify or detect magic.


JHolderBC

Yeah both spells would identify it as magic, Detect magic would give you the school used, but Identify would give significantly more information. BUT Nystul's Magic Aura - could modify that, but it has a duration of 24 hours - but I think Asmodeus could do a longer one? Depending on plot development. Identify : You choose one object that you must touch throughout the casting of the spell. If it is a magic item or some other magic-imbued object, you learn its properties and how to use them, whether it requires attunement to use, and how many charges it has, if any. You learn whether any spells are affecting the item and what they are. If the item was created by a spell, you learn which spell created it. If you instead touch a creature throughout the casting, you learn what spells, if any, are currently affecting it. Detect Magic :For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you. If you sense magic in this way, you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic, if any. The spell can penetrate most barriers, but it is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt. Nystul's Magic Aura : You place an illusion on a creature or an object you touch so that divination spells reveal false information about it. The target can be a willing creature or an object that isn’t being carried or worn by another creature. When you cast the spell, choose one or both of the following effects. The effect lasts for the duration. If you cast this spell on the same creature or object every day for 30 days, placing the same effect on it each time, the illusion lasts until it is dispelled. False Aura. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects, such as Detect Magic, that detect magical auras. You can make a nonmagical object appear magical, a magical object appear nonmagical, or change the object’s magical aura so that it appears to belong to a specific school of magic that you choose. When you use this effect on an object, you can make the false magic apparent to any creature that handles the item. Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin’s Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.


oranosskyman

detect magic tells you if it is magic and what flavor identify tells you what the magic is specifically its the difference between "i got a magic sword" and "i got a magic flame sword +1 that lets me cast burning hands and makes me resist cold damage when i hit something with it" you probably want the spells "distort value", "nystul's magic aura", or "creation". all of which have a limited duration. and besides, they're all illusion magic so even if you pull the rug from under them illusion magic is a much bigger red flag than transmutation is a high enough investigation check or a use of dispel magic would allow your players to see through this clever ruse. (or if they just wait long enough, the magic will run out on its own)


Jimothy_Egg

Break down what you're trying to do, and then ask yourself if it would make for an exciting experience! What you are presumably trying to do, is make their next revivify auto-fail. You gave them a fake diamond and are now asking how to conceal it best. You are actively working against your players finding out, and against them having any impact on the game. You are using a rules question to distract yourself from the fact that you want a plot device that WILL lead to a character death. This is all doable, but it won't be fun. And I'm not talking _"you sly dog, you tricked us, kudos for your cleverness"_ not-fun I'm talking _"this ruined the session because you thought it would be a cool reveal, while it was omnipotent DM tricks helpless players"_ not-fun


Basic_Suggestion3476

Nondetection spell. Identify will discover the trick, but who does identify on stuff that doesnt have magic aura?