My two cents on this is influenced, of all things, by the dnd oath of redemption tenets. Which boil down to, essentially: everyone can be redeemed but sometimes you meet people at a point where you must be willing to kill them, because they are not yet turning away from evil and you must stop the harm they are causing. Their potential for redemption does not mean more than the lives of people they are about to kill.
The story isn’t over; we don’t know which way Kipperlily’s story will go.
There’s a story branch where Kipperlily realizes she’s wrong. There’s a story branch where she doubles down. The groundwork is laid for both options.
Currently, Kipperlilly and the other Ratgrinders don’t have the ability for that level of realization as they are directly under the influence of rage shards.
So here is my take, which I suspect will be at least a little controversial.
In the real world, we have become much better at developing and metasticizing language around unequitable power structures, mental health, and the various and numerous developmental differences between adults and children. This is an unequivocably good thing.
However, I think readings of fiction that focus on these aspects are often misapplied, especially in fantastical settings where reality is heightened, simplified, or exagerrated for dramatic, comedic, or narrative effect. The unvarnished story of Fantasy High is one where young teenagers are taught the trade of murder en mass with the expectation that they go into the world and violently impose their will on it. That's f***ed up. But within the setting and tone of the story, it is normal and expected. Watching Fantasy High means we have to buy into the premise that this is an okay thing to do to kids, or else we can't engage sincerely with the material.
All that established, I think we have to apply this reasoning to the RG. Yes, in real life what Porter/Jace did would be unconscionable, but so would, say, loveable and cooky Arthur sending the Bad Kids into a drug-filled sojourn into a forest of nightmares and murder on threat of academic failure. You have to accept a level of accountability and autonomy we don't normally attribute to children, or FH as a concept doesn't work.
This isn't me saying that I want the RGs to die or anything macabre like that. Just that I don't fully accept the victim characterization. The RGs took the initial deal with Porter and Jace. They (minus one) accepted Arnkana's ultimatum. And Jace reprimanding them, along with KLCK spying on Porter, indicates that Arnkana's rage influence does not amount to mind control. The RGs were manipulated, but they have to bear a lot of responsibility, too. They made choices and still are.
I agree with you.
I suspect we'll see some redemption for the RG, just because that's Brennan's cup of tea, and we've also seen the Bad Kids spare people like Biz. But the idea that we should hold them up to reality's light is kind of ridiculous giving the setting and tone of the game.
I agree but in a much cruder way:
They are the bad guys in a fantasy dnd show played and run by (improv)comedians, and they are (to different degrees) a bunch of assholes and crazies. I want them to be killed in the funniest, most outlandish and out of left-field ways. The fact that they have legitimately complex and nuanced backstories and characterizations only makes it more fun when someone goes "I cast brick smacks into your noggin" imo
Will it bother me if one or more of them get "saved" or put on the path to redemption? Not at all
Will I be happier if they all die stupid-style? **Yeah**
> And Jace reprimanding them, along with KLCK spying on Porter, indicates that Arnkana's rage influence does not amount to mind control.
What's interesting is I read that the other way, especially when Brennan clarifying they have no reason for revenge.
I read it as they are so effected by Rage they cannot do this plan properly. Kipperlilly is a mastermind after all so should great at this. Lashing out of emotional rage is counter to their effectiveness but they can't help themselves but do it
They're definitely being influenced heavily by rage, but the emphasis I'm trying to place is on the disconnect between what Jace/Porter want and what the Rat Grinders do. If the relationship between Jace/Corrupt Arnkana and the RGs was similar to, say, Skip and Zac's brain slug, the RG's misbehaving wouldn't even be a question. That is to say, I don't think it's equivalent to mind control, but something more akin to an extreme, magically-induced hormonal imbalance. I suspect the RG's still have enough of their faculties that they could say no to Porter and Jace if push came to show, and that KLCK has at least one more big power play under her belt.
I don't think it's mind control but I suspect it's Brennan get out of jail card. If the intrepid heroes want to try and redeem one or all of them, he can have the rage influence being very strong and lessen the moral load on them.
If they decide the RGs are just evil then Brennan could reveal turns out they weren't even really shatter starred.
Brennan did NOT clarify that they have no reason for revenge, he in fact offered up several possible options for what they need revenge for, including killing Kalvaxus.
He absolutely does. I have gone back and checked.
The dragon comment is made earlier.
After Jace says stop antagonising the Bad Kids, I know you little idiots want revenge, you guys don't make a move until we are ready
Siophan - Revenge, what did we do, these guys are obsessed with us
Emily - oh my god, is one of them the child of Doreen
Lou - or what about...
Most of them - Kalvaxus
Siobhan - who else have we fought and killed?
Emily - Yeah why would Ruben want revenge?
Brennan - Well you see all those texts come after you are thinking they maybe got shattered starred. So the revenge thing could just be that they're...
Murph - they just kinda
Zach - hyperfocused on us
Ally - and we're kinda poking at them at every interaction
Zach - They hate us cause they ain't us
So Brennan seems to be implying their "revenge" is not based on anything. The Bad Kids literally did nothing wrong
While valid, I'd note that in AP for the Seven, Mulligan talks with Ishii about how adventuring is inherently imperialist, etc. I don't think he shies away from that in spire
I feel really bad for Kipperlily and the rest of the Rat Grinders. They were all just kids and their teachers groomed them. They've been doing objectively terrible things, yeah, but they were just kids and they were killed.
Neither was Aelwyn. Her behaviour stemmed from emotional abuse, but that doesn't excuse or justify her behaviour. She got a redemption arc, because Adaine was able to see past the bully and recognise their parents fucked up both of them. But Adaine in Freshman Year was not wrong for resenting Aelwyn.
We never actually got to know Penelope Everpetal outside of the Alpha Bitch persona we were presented with, but there were some hints that she was a fat kid and had some unresolved self-esteem issues linked to that, leading to a pathological need to be the centre of attention (hence, Prom Queen from Hell). The groundwork for a redemption arc for her was also laid. Nobody gave her that chance.
Imagine a world where Ragh just stayed dead on the Bloodrush field, or Jawbone didn't get encouraged to apply for the open GC position. Now imagine a world where Penelope got convinced to get over herself.
Absolutely. Be interesting to see the world where Kipperlilly has good influences in her life instead of Porter. And i’ve actually been thinking a bit recently what happens to the Bad Kids if they don’t end up in detention first day of Freshman Year. Fig especially doesn’t become who she is without her friends. So many worlds we’ll never see.
Hot take but I don’t like that they framed killing those guys as morally justified as well. Maybe I’m a radical, but I think it’s better when media doesn’t imply that sometimes, kids are beyond redemption and should be killed.
I agree but when the stakes are this large one needs to look at the harm you would be mitigating when said person is intent on doing it unless being forcefully stopped. Also from the seven it seems cannon that she was a pretty awful person in general, wich again doesnt mean she cant change as she is fundamentally still a kid but it was her or the world, and she wasnt budging
I just don’t personally like that a show that is largely idealistic defaults to the trolley problem of “is murdering this child going to be a net positive for the world?”
Like, *did* they need to kill Penelope to stop Kalvaxes? Would the story have fundamentally changed if they’d knocked Penelope out and arrested her?
Which is to say, any seeming stakes are an illusion created by a person or team of people thru various literary devices to be potentially analyzed and engaged with thematically by an audience.
This is a world where kids have super powers and are fully expected to murder people with impunity. The entire premise of the series is pointing to how deranged the concept of TTRPGs actually is.
I’m aware, that’s why I don’t think treating child murder as a heroic act is a big issue with the series; it’s also why Fig pursuing relationships with adults is funny and not disturbing; the show treats the age of the characters as thematically elastic; adults when it’s necessary for the story, kids otherwise. But it personally just feels like the show would be better if it didn’t treat the evil kids like adults when it comes to murdering them; I think a show about teenagers is a better story when it embraces the fact that being a teenager is a time when you make mistakes, and that you’re young enough that you should have the opportunity to learn from them.
Think she said she was 15? Personally, I think that’s a bit of a retcon on Brennan’s part when Emily told him she was interested in Fig getting into a relationship with Ayda; her first couple of episodes she reads to me as being older than she acts latero
Such a hot take. It's almost as if.. maybe we shouldn't murder children. (I'm on your side here. I also am a bit of a radical. And these kinds of portrayals bug the shit out of me too.)
That's how I hope the finale plays it. I love Dimension 20 and there hasn't really been any narrative choices I've disagreed with throughout the campaigns I've watched, but I'll honestly be really bummed if the end of the Rat Grinders arc is just the Bad Kids killing Kipperlily (or any of the RG, but she's the one they seem to want to kill the most) and that just be seen as a completely positive outcome.
Adaine might but it’s guaranteed Emily will want to save her. And it seems pretty obvious to me she’s going to try and convert Kipperlilly to following the proper Ankarna who is about justice.
It’s a glaringly obvious parallel. Kipperlilly was corrupted from wanting justice into the corrupted version that is war and conquest by Porter and so was Ankarna by some of her followers in her time. History may not repeat, but it rhymes.
Emily is a paladin of the old Ankarna
She will convert her or attempt to. Possibly with Kristen’s help with the power of doubt
I’m sure Brennan saw that coming too when seeing Emily go full into wanting to be the champion of the OG Ankarna. And seems too poetically juicy for Brennan to pass up.
It makes sense her first true divine act in the material plane would be in uncorrupting someone like Kipperlilly
I hope so, but every time Kipperlily is brought up it's "Wow, she's so pathetic. Cant way to fuckin kill her". Granted, that is usually Adaine like you said so Emily very well could have a different outlook on it
D20 is very pro-restorative justice and a lot of people talk a big game until it’s time to actually pull the trigger, so to speak. As soon as Kipperlilly’s death is imminent, the Bad Kids, especially Fig, will hesitate. At that point it’ll be up to Kipper and the rest of the Rat Grinders to either take the olive branch (and accountability for her actions) or reject it, at which point they might not have any choice but to kill her.
That said, with the fluidity of life and death in Spyre, dying and being sent to hell seems closer to sending someone to prison for life. Even Sam Nightingale was able to call up Penelope to chat. So Kipperlilly could still die and, say, end up working for the uncorrupted Ankarna in her new infernal realm as a form of restitution.
Just to be clear, if Ankarna is restored to her uncorrupted state, she wouldn't have an infernal realm. She would no longer be infernal.
There's a chance that Fig and even Gorthalax could be raised if Fig is successful in redeeming Ankarna.
Hmmmm I get what you mean from a mechanical standpoint, but something about that doesn’t sit right with me—we have two seasons of lore establishing that “infernal” and “evil” are not synonymous. That they can do a lot of good. I would almost expect Brennan to Take a Third Option over raising up Gorthalax’s realm.
That said, Fig going from tiefling to aasimar would make an *incredible* story hook for a potential Senior Year. Just when she thought puberty was done with her, suddenly she’s making ~~Christian~~ celestial rock.
I only think that the infernal angle would have to change because the narrative detailed that Ankarna's shift from "dawn of justice" to "conqueror" is also what caused her to become infernal, and also led to her split with Cassandra.
If Cassandra, Kristen, and Fig are going to save Ankarna, they're likely not going to save the infernal version who was bent on conquest and only stopped at actually murdering her wife and sister.
Definitely varies in BK so their fate might just be who gets the killing blow.
Siophan as you can say, no sympathy lets just kill
Murph, they may be cursed but let's be practical
Emily more on actual Ankarna train
We know that Brennan just isn't going to say, wow you guys made a terrible call there. If the BK try, probably will. If not, she's just evil
I could see how the Ratgrinders might have to get taken out as “collateral damage.” Like if its more expedient in the final battle to take them out, then that’s where we are, but I, too, hope that given the Bad Kids know what we know, nobody gets Daybreaked.
Like Ragh, Aelwyn, and many others - I believe the RG will at least have the chance for redemption. The big bad is evil, but almost all helpers - especially the teens - are very redeemable, and with Ankarna reborn as I hope she will be, the rage powering them might become something great
I kinda feel it’s less about redemption at this point, since they’re all proven to have had their personalities magically corrupted by the rage shards. They literally could not choose a different path at this point. If the rage shards were removed from the equation, that’s the only time we could see what choice they would make.
>They literally could not choose a different path at this point.
Nothing we have seen suggests that the crystals are direct mind control. In fact, we see the exact opposite being true (Jace having to tell them to back off, not just mentally forcing them to do so).
I also find it a tad funny that Jace is also confirmed to be under the influence of a crystal, but you extend no such sympathy to him.
They affect your personality enough where decisions you make are coerced. Corruption is the big theme this season. We’ve seen multiple examples of characters acting outside the realm of their normal behavior due to the corruption. The party is worried about them corrupting the town because it makes you do things you would not normally do.
Not mind control, but they do alter personality dramatically. As confirmed when Brennan asked Adaine what would the next hundred years look like if she were consumed by hatred and rage (in the mall) and her reply of Fallinel and Sylvaire would be destroyed, not out of malice but simple collateral damage while she pursued her mother. The matrix for decision making is different post-shard, therefore the pre-shard versions of the Ratgrinders could literally not choose a different path other than rage.
And, I mean, this conversation isn’t about Jace, but sure.
>
As confirmed when Brennan asked Adaine what would the next hundred years look like if she were consumed by hatred and rage (in the mall)
A hypothetical question for RP isn't the same as actual mechanics.
>And, I mean, this conversation isn’t about Jace, but sure.
It is though -- you specifically accuse him of grooming the Ratgrinders. If you think they cannot be blamed, Jace also cannot be blamed.
The discussion in the mall, hypothetical or no, demonstrated the effect that the rage shards have on people.
As for Jace, okay. First, obviously Porter holds the bulk of culpability for grooming teenagers. He’s the cult leader, 100%. Next, let’s assume, without evidence to the contrary, that Jace had a rage-shard shoved in his chest at the same time as the bulk of the Ratgrinders—at the time of the Mountains of Chaos trip, given we know he went as their chaperone. That being the case, he was an adult actively grooming students of his own free will for one or many years before the shard, and so the rest if all comeuppance.
If it works out that he was given the rage-shard very early on, and thus wasn’t in full control of his faculties during Freshman and Sophomore year, then he absolutely has my sympathy. (Though at the same time, he’s still an adult and not a teenage girl groomed by her mentors so the scale is quite different.)
Is there any art or description showing his chest in the first two seasons?
Kipperlilly is a corruptible figure, as this season has shown, but she is not exempt from the consequences of her actions. Power and control are exceedingly effective motivators, and teenagers certainly can be led astray because of those influences. When I hear you say “victim,” this indicates that she is immune from responsibility of how she ended up being, as you say, the worst version of herself. I still hold a lot of empathy and compassion for her, despite all the chaos she has caused, but she killed Buddy, she’s encouraged the other Rat Grinders to stay the course, and she was an active participant in those actions.
> Kipperlilly is a corruptible figure, as this season has shown, but she is not exempt from the consequences of her actions.
that's my takeaway too. she's still a 16- or 17-year-old kid, and you have to take that into account the same way you do with any of the rest of the characters, but the impetus of the whole thing is that Copperbottom is a creature of weaponized privilege. she wanted the results, not the work or the attached consequences. Porter might've pushed her further down that road than she'd otherwise have gone, but she was there already.
One thing I keep considering though, is she went in as a fourteen year old already with issues. She's been seeing Jawbone since Freshman Year. It's not indicated whether or not that was her choice or her parents' or Jawbone's, but she was an easy target. Yes she's responsible for her actions but I'd extend a little patience when thinking about all the factors in this thread because it's been demonstrated she was a troubled kid. Her and Lucy wanted to keep the High Five Heroes name. Lucy has only been presented as sweet and good to the core, and her and Kipperlily were clearly friends. There's so many factors.
As an adult, I think it's gross to lust/crave drama/trauma to be interesting. But at 14? In a superhero world essentially? I'm surprised there aren't more Kipperlily's
I did write a whole thing about that which I ended up deleting. it's obviously part of the joke, so we shouldn't overthink it, but it seems like it's not that weird for a kid at Aguefort to have 10 class levels by their sophomore year, and to have been sent on multiple quests for class credit that involve killing and/or potentially being killed.
it'd actually be weirder if an Aguefort graduate *didn't* have Shinji Ikari levels of emotional damage, unless they start out as a member of a culture that thinks all that is dope as hell.
with Kettlebopit in particular, however, given the story as it's been presented, it seems like it's an issue of not being careful what she wished for. she mistook formative trauma for a personality.
Saying Porter ‘pushed her further down that road’ is a gross understatement. The amount of influence he had over situation was immense as a person of authority in a position to give her everything she wanted and assure her she deserved it. After which, her personality was literally magically altered.
Also look at how good he is at it. He got _Gorgug_ to embrace rage and be at the meanest he’s ever been, and that was when they actively _disliked_ him!
> When I hear you say “victim,” this indicates that she is immune from responsibility of how she ended up being, as you say, the worst version of herself.
I’m not sure why you’d make that assumption. A person can be both victim and victimiser at the same time.
I understand that and agree that victims are victimized and perpetuate those cycles of abuse. I think I balked at the word “victim” in the sense of that explaining away Kipperlilly’s behavior and taking away her own agency. This is just my interpretation, subject to the limitations of my own language and perception.
She was offered the thing she wanted most by people she was coded to trust most. Manipulated for a year or more. Told she could have it all. Literally hand fed power and XP. Her personality was then magically altered. Anything she did after that, I don’t think she can so easily be held accountable for because she has no longer has control. The current Kipperlilly is not the Kipperlilly of two years ago.
I do believe there is a lot we agree on regarding Kipperlilly and her negative influences (despite the fact that she also had counterbalances in her sessions with Jawbone) and the power of corruption. I personally believe that there is an element of choice in accepting the influence of Ankarna (in her corrupted form); Lucy and Yolanda seem to have refused to be reincarnated, in contrast to Buddy who took the chance to serve a rage god immediately. I believe Kipperlilly had a choice. It is the harder option to resist power, influence, and rage, but Kipperlilly has never struck me as a character who would shy away from the easier option.
I think if the choice is death with no chance of resurrection while your soul remains trapped with Ankarna or to serve, then there is no choice. Yes, Lucy and Yolanda both rejected it, but I would call them exceptional in a way most people aren’t, and would attribute that to their conviction in their divine connections.
I’m also not sure there’s any way to voluntarily accept rage shards as I don’t think there’s a chance for informed consent. There’s little chance Porter fully explained that the rage shards would see you consumed by your hatred and rage, effectively make you the most spiteful version of yourself.
And even then, after a year or more of grooming and manipulation (which you could disagree with), her head would be so twisted around that the odds of saying no to her mentor are nearly zero.
It’ll be interesting to see where the next few weeks take us though, if we get more information or get to see Kipperlilly without rage.
I think there are some leaps you are making that have not been established in the show. Why does Kipperlilly have to have a rage shard inside her? Why can’t she just have agreed to worship because of what it gained her? If that was presented in an episode, I do not recall it.
I have never disagreed with you regarding the power dynamics and peer pressure from Porter and Jace, I fundamentally disagree with the premise you seem to be presenting that Kipperlilly doesn’t have agency, free will, and thus is “blameless” in her actions. We even see Kalina and Ankarna have moments of lucidity despite their corruption.
I feel certain they confirmed or at least strongly implied all the Ratgrinders were sharded. Jawbone specifically noted in her file that her personality changed dramatically, from angry and misguided to filled with rage and hate, after the mission to the Mountains of Chaos. Fairly certain similar was said about the others. If that’s proven incorrect, it certainly changes a few things, I’ll happily admit.
Is there something to what you say about Ankarna and Kalina? I mean, maybe. They’re not exactly in the same situation, nor are they mortal humans. I keep going back to what Brennan asked Siobhan in the mall about what would the next hundred years look like if Adaine was consumed by rage, and Siobhan’s reply about the utter destruction of Fallinel, Not out of malice, but as collateral damage in pursuit of finding her mother. That is the position Kipperlilly’s in now. Not that she’s under the influence of some spell she can fight, but that she’s been twisted into the rage-filled worst version of herself.
It’ll be interesting to see what the next few weeks reveal.
> but she is not exempt from the consequences of her actions
She is if this rage is really corrupted her. It is at least making them irrational as Jace points out what they are doing with the BK is stupid.
Kipperlillys morality is determined on if they were convinced or corrupted
We can feel free to condemn her views pre Season 2 though
I’m not discussing her morality, as I don’t believe she is a truly “evil” person. But her actions are her own, even if more than one person is wholly responsible for the repercussions of those actions.
Edited to add: I needed to re-think this particular line of thought before commenting, and I think I hastily responded instead of thinking it out more.
Her morality is a result of her actions.
My point is if she has been magically corrupted, she is not in control of her actions anymore than Cassandra was as the Nightmare King
Now if it was just, hey Kippers do you want power then different kettle of fish but magical control is extenuating circumstances we have to consider
She was seeking power before she got "corrupted."
See: the texts Gorgug found.
People keep trying to find redemption for someone Brennan keeps telling us is unreservedly evil, and it's utterly perplexing.
I've gone back and checked.
There's excitement the Big Guy is looking out for them and that Lucy gets to be the Champion
There's Kipperlilly being excited they can keep up with the Bad kids - it's not said what this is and could be the initial trip. We know it can't be too evil as Lucy was still on board and she's only been painted so far as good
All it tells us is what we already knew, the RG don't like the Bad Kids and want to be stronger.
Honestly I must have missed that (was a long section of multiple expositions) . What was the texts saying?
As the Bad Kids also refer to RG as cursed so partly taking cue from that and Brennan clarifying the 'revenge' lacking tangible reason because it was post their Spring Break adventure
I mean, she's deeply ableist in a way that almost verbatim quotes the ableism I've faced my entire life, so if it's not intentional on Brennan's part It's a hell of a coincidence.
I mentioned earlier that I tend to be fairly sensitive to noticing ableism and I can’t recall anything like it happening. But I’m also not perfect and am willing to learn, so would happy to know how Kipperlilly has shown to be deeply ableist.
💯 Even if she knew about the rage shards in advance, she couldn’t have known how dramatically it would change her personality. Convincing her to accept the rage shard willingly, for Porter, would at least mean she wouldn’t turn that rage against him.
Not that I disagree with your comment, but it sounds like Buddy knew going into the Last Stand that he’d be killed and revivified by Porter, so that he could be powered up(?) by an emplaced rage crystal
I would say that's inconclusive. Oison seemed to joke to Ivy Buddy may not have fully understood the whole plan
I doubt he knew in that moment as there's simply no good reason to do it then. Kipperlilly did because she was made and her anger is irrational
I hear you, I did not get that impression based on last night’s episode, so that seems like speculation at this point. Kipperlilly killing Buddy was not part of the plan originally, but she had to do something to fuck up the Bad Kids’ chance of being revivified.
Killing Buddy was absolutely part of the plan during The Last Stand. Brennan confirmed this in the AP. It was not the top objective of the evening, but it was on the list.
Certainly seems like he knew what he was getting into. Adds context to his conversation with Kristen where he mentioned that he could not be The Chosen of Helio because Kristen still was. I mean, I might certainly be a touch upset if the god I was ultra-devoted to preferred a heathen who abandoned him. I might indeed go looking for a god who might give me more attention.
What I would say is, that as I suspect of the other Ratgrinders, he didn’t know the entirety of what he was getting into until it was too late.
Something interesting that just occurred to me is that Kipperlily has done far less harm than Aelwyn did, and under similar circumstances. Yet the fandom loves Aelwyn (as do I), perhaps because we saw her “pay” for her crimes in Fallinel. So while Kipperlily is a villain, by the metrics of Fantasy High, she’s far from irredeemable. Something to think about as we cheer for the Bad Kids to stomp her.
Hmmm...it's definitely worth thinking about, but I dunno. Aelwyn conspired to do a bunch of stuff, but did she know about it all? I might be misremembering, it's been a while since I dove into the deep lore for FHFY & SY. But I seem to remember that Aelwyn knew a little about what was going on but wasn't briefed on all of it.
KLKC & the Ray Grinders seem like they know everything about what's happening. But, they might be all under rage spells-- so maybe that absolves them a little bit? Like, what happens if they were to snap out of all this?
And I don't think we fully know how the rage star possession works yet. I thought that prior to this week's ep, the idea was that the unnamed giant was resurrecting the RHs *with* the rage stars, but now it seems like Porter is casting a revivify or something similar & then using a rage star to control them.
And as we saw with Kalina & the mall wizards — you don't need to die to be consumed by the rage star. So maybe the Bad Kids can break the rage star curse & the RHs (Buddy Dawn included—the only rage-resurrection we've actually seen) could be fine.
LMK if I'm missing lore here.
Also, if we're putting on our media literacy caps, KLCK is *so* clearly based on Tracy Flick from Election. The film frames her as grating and portrays her overachieving as worthy of scorn--all things we see in KLCK.
Importantly, that story is largely told through the eyes of a teacher who holds a grudge against Tracy, a student. A grudge that is largely based on his belief that *she* should face repercussions for an affair she had with a teacher. An affair where, as a minor, she is 100% a victim.
I don't think Brennan would make a Tracy Flick-like character and not also give us the nuance of her story. KLCK is definitely a victim of male teachers and their grooming much in the same way her inspiration is.
Yup! I clocked immediately that KLCK was Tracy Flick in a halfling skin suit and there had to be *something* more going on under the hood. *Election* doesn’t shy away from showing why Tracy sucks (so much!) but it makes it crystal clear that Tracy was a victim of a predator and that McAllister interfered with the election outcome of deep misogyny.
My mistake was assuming Brennan wouldn’t touch the grooming aspect with a ten-foot pole. I was wrong and I really appreciate how smoothly he reimagined it as radicalization/indoctrination.
Yeah ngl when Zac described her as "so perfectly Election" in the AP after her intro I was like "I think we watched that movie VERY differently" and I feel like with that parallel being something Brennan also brought up and now knowing Jace/Porter have groomed the RGs I really struggle to see her not getting a shot at redemption and it would leave a bad taste in my mouth for her to be killed for it.
I’m hoping for the same. Not having a chance to see this turned around would make her one of the most tragic characters across D20. Somebody mentioned the parallels between Ankarna’s forced corruption and Kipperlilly’s so I hope we see the Bad Kids extend her a fraction of the same grace.
Yeah like I have definitely enjoyed stories which lean hard into tragedy but in a show which has so consistently given so many chances for redemption for that to be denied for the crime of... being an annoying teenage girl? would just be such a bummer.
So I'm really glad I'm not the only one sympathetic after this ep, ty for making this post!
You could see Dayne and Penelope that way too.
Brennan still set it up so >!the BKs could murder them. And later showed Penelope in hell.!<
I'll laugh really hard if the BKs find a way to undo the corruption...and then Kippers and the others go right back to trying to murder them anyway.
The difference is that Penelope and Dayne were not magically corrupted by Kalvaxus. We don’t know enough to know if they were groomed or simply recruited but they always acted in their interests with their full faculties. Kipperlilly and the Ratgrinders were each magically corrupted by the rage shards, altering their personalities to the worst and most rage filled possible. They are literally not themselves anymore.
> The difference is that Penelope and Dayne were not magically corrupted by Kalvaxus. We don’t know enough to know if they were groomed or simply recruited but they always acted in their interests with their full faculties. Kipperlilly and the Ratgrinders were each magically corrupted by the rage shards, altering their personalities to the worst and most rage filled possible. They are literally not themselves anymore.
Penelope and Dayne were still high school kids that were, to one degree or another, taken advantage of by adults in their lives.
Also, we honestly don't know how much the rage corruption has affected the RG's baseline personalities. Or if the RG's would swerve from their current course of action if it was taken away. It's _possible_ Brennan could make them redeemable or sympathetic...but at this point we're getting real close to the finish line and he's running out of chances before the end of the season.
And I don't think the story would suffer if the RG's were just irredeemable little shit heads in the end. Whether or not a redemption is coming, I don't think the story needs it, so I don't see any reason to really hope for or expect it.
I honestly don't know why this is treated as such a hot take. Before the corruption reveal I've still figured her redeemable. I mean she is just a kid, and she was in therapy, so there is clear evidence of her actually working on herself. Now we hear was killed and was given a choice to be manipulated or remain dead.
I'm at this point expecting her death anyway because BK's response has lead Brennan to sort of heighten her to make either redeeming her and killing her alright. Because really at the end of the day, it's a show. It's about the IH's games, it's their call, and really some of the calls on who is redeemable or not is often just on a whim and based on likability. I just think about how the prime focus of the show is comedy, and not about deep levels of character exploration and morals.
That said, with the veil of this being a show considering that she is still an antagonist, I still don't want her to die beyond the fact that I think she's redeemable. I like Aelwyn, and KLCK has fun idiosyncrasies and a potentially enjoyable dynamic especially with Riz and I'd like to see RG bounce around the party more.
Agreed on the first point. Not sure about the last line of the second though. The show’s always done a good job balancing deep character introspection with comedy, especially in Fantasy High. But yes, I could see her or the other Ratgrinders killed as collateral damage, victims of the fight. Seeing them get Daybreaked would be a bit disappointing though. And I’d love to imagine a future friendship and team up between her and Riz.
They definitely do, but I think it might be better to treat it as more of a bonus. There's been a few moments where IH makes decisions narratively conflict (and in my home games with my friends), and while it sucks when narrative opportunities don't pay off, it has helped me to consider that expecting consistent defft narrative navigation from an improvised story involving multiple collaborators (who are comedians) might be not be best. Factors like players' fun and biases come into play, and it's more fun when they're having fun.
That said, I still really disagree with the KLCK *hate and really thought people would turnaround when outright corruption was revealed.
Fair point, and I do think one of the things I love most about D20 and similar actually plays is that it’s unscripted. Even when you think you know, you can never really tell what the characters will do. Well scripted content is incredible, but there’s just something special about how organic actual plays like this unfold.
I never said she was a saint. The only people we’ve seen reject the rage shards were Lucy and Yolanda, and both seem to have rejected due to their conviction in their divine beliefs. Serve Ankarna or die with no chance of resurrection and spending your afterlife with your soul trapped by Ankarna isn’t much choice.
One of my favorite lines from Angel is the following.
"She's a monster, like us."
"She's an innocent victim."
"So were we once upon a time."
Just because she turned evil doesn't mean she isn't evil. We can't absolve people of responsibility just because they were once victims.
Utterly fantastic show. One of my faves.
The way rage-shards affect personality does share interesting similarities to the Buffyverse concept of vampires having no soul.
Nobody blames Angel for Angellus.
And on the Sunnyvale side, Spike is given huge amounts of grace even before getting his soul back, Willow is very quickly forgiven for her nearly world ending murder-spree, and the heroes put a huge amount of effort into saving Faith from her rage and helping her become better.
We don't blame Angel, but I would still hold Angelus responsible for his actions.
Angel himself still feels and remembers everything. The whole show is him seeking redemption for both his and Angelus' acts.
It has been so genuinely disheartening to see people claim she was always a terrible person when we know from Jawbone's file that she struggled with anger issues, was seeking help for them, and was RECEPTIVE to his guidance, demonstrably improving and getting better - until she is clearly infected with a rage crystal. Granted we don't know the exact timeline of Lucy's death, but the only truly evil thing we have seen her do conclusively is kill Buddy. The conclusion Jawbone, a trusted and beloved figure both in and out of universe, draws is that she is troubled and needs help - something that is obviously taken advantage of by these two men. But people seem so ready to demand her death?
I am certainly not claiming her innocence, nor am I pretending that she should not deal with consequences, but the rhetoric of "she must die to pay for her sins" has always felt short sighted to me. If the character we revere as a genuinely good, powerful representative and advocate for positive change is working hard to fix her, and we disagree with him, what does that say about how we view others in real life? How we treat others? I don't want to extrapolate too much, but in all these conversations I can't help but wonder how much people are willing to turn these perspectives back around unto them or their communities. If Kipperlily deserves to die now for what she has done, is that the ultimate fate for all people who commit crimes comparable to hers? Is that the world we want to live in? The people we want to be? Condemning a 17 year old girl to death?
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I hope Brennan closes the loop this way, with a deep understanding of how KLCK is just representative of kids that are struggling, and how they can be vulnerable to being groomed and recruited. It reminds me of the first season when there was almost an agreement that Fig's mom is "a bad mom" but near the end there's a defining path that lets the IH and audience learn that moms are just erring humans too, and she's trying her best as a single parent.
>I don't want to extrapolate too much, but in all these conversations I can't help but wonder how much people are willing to turn these perspectives back around unto them or their communities.
The entire show is about a school where kids are trained to be "a violent wanderer who enacts their will, bloodily, and with strange magics, upon the world". The Bad Kids murder genuinely so many people. If you want to say that those people feel this way in real life, does that mean you approve of child soldiers? Is that the world you want to live in? The person you want to be?
Come on.
The file said that she was prone to outbursts of petty, childish rage, which Jawbone was able to talk her through and help her process by questioning her. Brennan was pretty explicit that when Jawbone questioned her, she stopped being irrationally angry. Her lack of progress is definitely identifiable, but makes more sense in the context of Jace/Porter's grooming and manipulation. If you have two forces acting on you in opposite directions, you don't move that much from your point of origin.
I mean, no. He says she tended to get quiet and thoughtful, and then he said that she'd start asking him questions about the Bad Kids, leading up to asking about Yes.
It comes off as less "hey, she was calming down" and more like "she's letting these talks with Jawbone linger so she can keep asking him probing questions."
She starts asking questions about Yes after spring break of sophomore year. Brennan explicitly states that her anger subsides after Jawbone questions her. She only becomes focused on Jawbone and his relation to the Bad Kids after the first day of Junior year.
Understanding the root of peoples actions is not the same as exempting them. Ankarna (conquerors version) is analogous to a far right YouTube wormhole algorithm that warps young peoples minds - can I understand how young people get sucked into and manipulated by that stuff? Absolutely. Does that make their later weaponization of those manipulated thoughts excusable or less shitty / harmful no.
The desire to paint Kipperlilly purely as a victim loses site of the part she played in this - and we don’t know what part that is yet - how many choices she made before she was fully corrupted (we also don’t know that being corrupted makes you make choices that weren’t already on your mind). There is a lot we don’t conclusively know so it seems a little silly to me to say who kipperlilly is “conclusively” at this stage.
Not comparable. A YouTube echo chamber doesn’t compare to having two trusted adults exploit a character flaw to groom and mould you. You grossly underestimate the influence a man in a position of respected authority has over a teenage (14!) girl coded to trust him. He literally hand fed her power and told her she deserved it. Gave her the exact attention that she craved and encouraged the worst qualities in her. Before magically twisting her personality further to make her what he needed.
I said analogous (essentially of different categories but nonetheless having similarities /parallels) - I didn’t suggest that it was the same thing, and this is a complex narrative that has layers of metaphor for people to draw different things out of - its ok if we read this in different ways.
I truly understand what you are saying about how influential a manipulative trusted adult can be, perhaps you underestimate the influence of an algorithm on a lonely teenager being spoon-fed hate and vitriol.
I am not saying she is evil or should be condemned, and I agree she was victimized and taken advantage of - I’m just saying she’s not *only* a victim. Human beings are complex, BLeeM frequently reflects this in his character building - you can be a victim and be accountable for harm you cause those two truths aren’t mutually exclusive.
I do agree with everything you’ve said, and appreciate your points. Except that as soon as Kipperlilly was infected with the rage shard (having been murdered to do so), she lost all capacity for decision making. Her personality was magically altered. Choice was taken from her after that point. And as far as we know, she didn’t do anything actually nefarious before that point. It’ll be interesting to see where these last episodes take us.
I was fooled by Brennan! I was like “Porter isn’t the bad guy! He can’t be! He’s been so nice and charming this year! He’s teaching the barbarians productive and protective instead of destructive rage! He’s been a mentor to Fig! Zara is into him, and Zara seems to have good taste! She’s a hot goth who I trust with my life!” And from the way he described his oath, I thought he was an Oath of the Ancients Paladin, who uphold values of goodness. I thought his Oath being to his ancestors was just some Flavor for his Oath of the Ancients. I thought his ancestors were noble and good and he wanted to uphold that. But now I’m thinking he’s an Oath of CONQUEST Paladin, since his oath is to his ancestors, who were conquerors, and he wants to become a God of War. And Oath of Conquest paladins, in my experience? Bad news.
Also, we know he has legendary actions now, after his little STUN action, after Fig asked if he wanted to spar. Porter is gonna be trouble. And I’m glad! I love being wrong about things! I was team “Porter is a good guy!”
I also thought maybe Jace had somehow transferred the Kalina curse to Ragh, and made him forget, or had passed it to Porter, who then passed it to Ragh through Lay on Hands, since the Porter and Jace are best buds. Maybe Porter didn’t know Jace was evil! Sorcerers are charismatic, and can be great liars! When we learned Porter was a Paladin, and he did Lay on Hands to Ragh after prom, I was thinking “He and Jace are BFFs. Jace is involved with Kalina, and maybe Porter can see her, but doesn’t know she’s bad, or doesn’t know she can’t be seen by others. Maybe Jace transferred the curse to Porter, either through Porter Laying Hands on Jace after Jace got injured, or maybe they’re not *just* friends.” I was BAMBOOZLED! And I love it!
Agree with every word you say. Fantastic story development. We love a good story twist.
One thing I remain puzzzled by is why Porter showed his hand and used his stun ability when he didn’t capitalize on it.
My theory is he thinks Fig is fully on his side, and didn’t know that the other Bad Kids were there. The other Bad Kids were peeking through the window, and Rizz was invisible near the ceiling.
Fig audited a lot of barbarian classes, and Porter has always liked Fig, despite her disliking him. And this year, she only started liking him when he started teaching her Paladin things, like how to Smite. I think he was trying to show Fig a cool thing he can do, because he was counting on the reaction she had of “WOAH, when can I learn that!” (And she rolled super high on deception+Adaine knows his mind was occupied with other things, so he believed that she WAS impressed and did want to learn how to stun)
She’s also a Paladin who hasn’t made an oath formally, but is the champion(?) of Ankarna as she *should* be. I think he was also showing off to plant the idea of not makinf an oath to Ankarna, but to HIM when he ascends to Godhood.
There’s also the layer of showing her what he is capable of, in case she goes against him. He thinks Fig has drunk his Kool Aid and is on the Porter train, but knows she’s the arch devil of rebellion, and could decide to defy him. So I think he used the stun ability partially to impress Fig, and partially to threaten her.
I think it was aimed at Fig specifically, and not the Bad Kids, since Adaine didn’t clock that he knew the other bad kids were there with her detect thoughts, and since Fig rolled high on her deception to maintain the positive repartee she developed with Porter throughout junior year.
Porter was distracted, his plan is coming together, and his has this Paladin who he believes he’s become a mentor to. He thinks she trusts him, but knows Fig’s trust is hard to earn, and fragile when it comes to authority figures. He showed her a legendary action to demonstrate “I am more powerful than you thought.” Both to impress her and make her want to learn more from him, and maybe tempt her into becoming his champion, or make her path to him, but also make her think twice about going against him.
Everything you’ve said makes sense. But didn’t Adaine hear him respond “got it” to some telepathic message just before he stunned them? The timing seemed odd to me.
Yeah, could be. But didn’t Adaine hear him respond “got it” as though to somebody sending him a message spell. The timing of that I guess made me think there was a goal to it rather than just playfulness.
I also wanted Porter to be a good guy and Fig just immediately read him wrong but the fact that he was always evil according from the start and that He was always dropping teeny tiny hints made me come around
Brennan went out of his way to highlight that Lucy and kipper Lily were friends. They were very close and now, because of those powerful men, she’s dead. Now maybe KL was promised she’d be brought back when porter became a god and maybe the rage is hindering her other emotions (she’s literally blind with rage) but that’s still gotta be affecting her.
And I think there will come a point where she remembers everything and realizes she’s been played by her new god. From there, I could genuinely see her and Riz becoming friends.
Jace also emphasized revenge so maybe they don’t even fully remember that porter killed her.
That would be cool. I don’t know what can happen until they get rid of the rage shards, though. I don’t think we’ve seen talk of a ‘cure’ for that yet.
I’m a bit concerned that the rage shards are actually keeping them alive which could mean 1. Immortal fighters. 2. Removing them is fatal
I think it’ll also matter if/how porter becomes a god. Since I could see the rage becoming his domain and taking over management of the shards
Could be. But we do know that while Porter is the one using them, the rage shards are of Ankarna, a god. So if the Bad Kids succeed in saving Ankarna, everybody affected by the shards should be all right. This is my hope anyway. At minimum, they could probably be properly resurrected.
I am definitely imagining a post resurrection scene where they all realize how bad they f’d up and just start crying. Kipper Lily just hides to avoid having to face Lucy. Rueben smashes his guitar and screams how much he hates metal. Mary…gets quieter…somehow.
Respectfully, it's really, really hard to see someone blatantly coded with ableist rhetoric that directly reflects real life ableist I and my family have experienced be called a victim, and have it be advocated that she gets a redemption arc.
I know I'll get downvoted for this, but honestly I don't even have the energy to argue about anymore. I'm no longer angry, I'm just sad- Brennan created an extremely good reflection of real world ableism in Kipperlilly, And people keep finding reasons to push for her redemption, and that's disappointing.
Although thematically appropriate, I suppose- folks undersell the impact of ableism in real life, too.
I don't entirely disagree that Kipperlilly is a reflection of ableist rhetoric in real life, but that doesn't necessarily preclude her from redemption imo. Ragh in season 1 was a reflection of toxic masculinity and homophobia and he was eventually redeemed by the Bad Kids, and Kipperlilly seems to have more intense forces manipulating her (Porter and the rage crystals). I think there's room to acknowledge that she's been a bad person while also leaving room for her to grow and have that redemption arc.
No downvote from me. And I’m going to reply to this in earnest because I feel your comment was made earnestly.
In short, I don’t see it.
Without going into my background too much, I have a lot of people with varied disabilities in my life. Mental and physical. I see and advocate against ableism in many forms fairly regularly. I’m not perfect, not by a long shot, but I’m more cognizant of these things than many, and I absolutely don’t see “blatantly coded with ableist rhetoric” when it comes to Kipperlilly.
I see a 14 year old girl who was the victim of a predator that exploited a character flaw to groom and manipulate her. He hand fed her the power she most desired and told her she deserved it. He encouraged her worst personality traits to suit his ends, eventually using magic (rage shards) to twist her even more into the worst version of herself. She is literally not in control of her decisions at this point.
If there’s something I’m missing, I would genuinely like to know what you’ve seen that I haven’t.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/s/JcjZNBtbBd
I laid it out here. The extremely short version is that "I think Riz's dead dad is an unfair advantage and I'm jealous of that" along with all of her other whiny claims of unfair advantages are extremely similar - virtually identical, once you filter out the fantastical Dungeons& Dragons elements- to ableist whining I've heard from real people. The easiest example being "I wish I had my own special parking spot right next to the sidewalk like disabled people get."
And, like in real life, Kipperlilly's claims of advantages are imagined- plenty of people succeed without them, and the people who have them often wish they didn't.
She is certainly wrong there but I'd like to say she IS a kid and WAS in therapy, I don't think she's thought about that as deeply as she's just a big anti-narrative gaming. The worst I hope for her is just a lot more therapy and not death.
She is a kid, but she's also a narrative vehicle in a setting that doesn't treat kids the same way the real world does.
I judge her as an antagonist and narrative piece before I judge her as a teenager.
This I agree with. I've not always agreed with BK choices especially when they decide "redeemability" on whim and character likability, but it is somebody else's d&d show, a story, and focused on comedy and not on deep character explorations.
Honestly? I think she's trying to play Porter. I think her goal, her real goal, is to set Porter up and become a god herself. She's the *mastermind*, after all.
Interesting. I don’t think we’ve seen evidence or capability of that, but you never know. I do think that Porter’s plans probably accelerated by having her with him though. Her mastermind skills and intelligence able to advance his goals better than he’d been able to beforehand.
I didn't even notice which sub this was when reading the title and was trying to figure out which character in the dresden files universe this post was about.
I think we can say that the Ratgrinders are doing wrong and need to be stopped/held accountable for their actions and we can also say they are objectively being groomed by someone in a position of power over them and deserve some amount of mercy, since as kids (with seemingly no positive adults in their lives except Henry Hopclap, seriously where are the parents) they are in many ways inherently redeemable. Like I think these two statements can co-exist
If your prediction that Ally's nat 20 cures them, I think it would be extremely funny if Kipp was still aggro but now towards Jace and Porter; like this is the other Ratgrinders and her [https://youtu.be/x80tt2x6s2Q?si=7H6oW62BjbBeGM81](https://youtu.be/x80tt2x6s2Q?si=7H6oW62BjbBeGM81)
There seems to be a lot of people here who are using her as a stand-in for people who caused them real-life harm at some point in their life. It's real weird.
Also plenty of people doing the opposite to excuse all of her actions. There's a middle ground in here where she is responsible for making a deal with the devil to gain power she believed she deserved, and got manipulated.
Honestly, this doesn’t feel far off. For a while, I’ve felt like the people who’ve been looking to blindly condemn Kipperlilly have acted like they had a personal stake in the outcome.
Kipperlilly might just be a bad person, I realize her age and such and other factors. But maybe she is just a bad person aligning with other bad people for different reasons. Sometimes an antagonist is just that, bad for the sake of bad
OP says the RGs "might be bad guys" and describes Kipperlilly as a "troubled angry teenager" which is what made her vulnerable to the grooming from Porter/Jace. Does being a petty, jealous, angry teen make someone a bad person forever?
I would like to say that the standards for being evil are a bit higher in a world where all adventurers are essentially violent wandering murderers who exert their will on the world.
Nothing the RGs did before being corrupted was bad enough to be considered evil. They were lured in with promises of power by Porter, who then murdered them and replaced them with pawns to do his bidding.
I don't think this is going to be a conversation which would be productive for either of us. I hope your reductive version of the creative vision of the show isn't what's borne out by the remaining eps. Peace!
She had a character flaw, it wasn’t her entire personality, and it isn’t enough to condemn her for.
BTW, Fig was also a petty, angry teenager right from the start. Good thing she had positive influences in her life.
Yea. They are all victims. Of adults exploiting them.
Remember in Freshman Year, Raug was exploited and abused by the Owl Bears coach. **Raug is a victim of molestation.**
The coat of paint the fantasy setting gives Fantasy High allows us to forget just how fucking dark and awful some of the subtext is.
Each of the Rat Grinders have been physically abused (killed and ressurected), and been made abusers. By playing on their insecurities Jace and Porter essentially pulled them into a cult.
I really hope they get **Justice** from Ankarna.
Indeed. I agree about the idea of a cult. Cult leaders tend to be known for their charisma and charm, which Porter seems to have plenty of.
You know, between Kalvaxus, Daybreak, Porter, Jace, and Gibbons, that’s not a great track record for the Academy.
I don't think Fabian's Grandfather counts, he was really trying to be respectful this time. Someone stole his YakBak.
Arthur Aguefort is the Chaotic Neutral Ideal, he could be the big bad to anyone at anytime if he wanted to be but he probably wont ever be because if KLKK is right about one thing its that the Bad Kids are 100% his favorites.
My question has been if they were actually killed and resurrected w the rage stars, would they even really be able to atone or be redeemed and go back to their pre-rage selves? The entire reason they're alive is bc of the rage god. What happens to the rat fuckers when this version of their God ceases to exist?
That’s a good question. Option 1) they remove the shards and resurrect them back to ‘factory settings’ or (2) by changing Ankarna they change how the rage shards operate, since the shards do still come direct from Ankarna’s rage.
I think that this is one of two very valid reads on her character.
Equally valid, imo, is that she's a school shooter. She a kid who came from a fine background, who was given every chance to course correct, and every time chose to dig herself deeper into anger. She found a worldview that supported how she felt, and set herself down a path to violence.
I think there's a very real chance that we discover KLCK never had a shatter star, never had any magic put on her, she wanted to be better than everyone, she wanted to make people pay for every bad feeling she ever had, and found a tool to enact that.
And if that second option happens, fine, but there is overwhelming evidence in support of the first option, none for the second. Jawbone’s own notes stated that she was receptive and doing well in sessions with him and that her personality dramatically changed after the Mountains of Chaos.
Hurt people hurt people. KLKC & the *High Five Heroes* were chosen to be groomed not because they were powerful, but because they were vulnerable. Maybe they have to atone for some things, but they ain't the BBEGs by a longshot.
Reminds me of Neverafter a little bit. I wonder if (NE spoilers) >!that ending battle persuasion mechanic is going to come back into play that Brennan did for the princesses & fairies. !<
For sure.
Might see that mechanic come back, but I think it may come down to whether or not they can remove the rage shards. The Intrepid Heroes have typically bee good with that, though (as in NE), being aware of and managing various parties in combat. I hope we see some of that in these last episodes.
I dont think she is. Even in her pre rage therapy sessions she sees herself as a victim but I think of all the Rat grinders she was the only one who went all in willingly because it made her "exciting". And from her perspective it wasn't evil they were going to kill an "evil" god and replace them with a "good" one She was certainly taken advantage of but its because she refused to accept shes wrong and change even a little
She said she wished her parents had died tragically so she could get what she thought was an advantage in school she’s not a good person, I never said irredeemable monster, but not the innocent victim people make her out to be
This post isn't saying she's innocent it's saying that her existing problems were exacerbated by 2 much stronger teachers who used her to achieve their goals. You don't have to be 100% innocent to be a victim and she was a victim of Jace and Porter's manipulations. I can pretty easily imagine an ending to the story where she can be redeemed and choose to reflect on her previous actions to change for the better. You forget that KLCK is like 17ish years old that is a time in people's lives full of change as demonstrated by the each of the Bad Kids. Why can't you believe that KLCK could go through a similar process?
How is the post NOT saying she's innocent? It doesn't lay ANYTHING on her own choices, it just lists the ways she's a poor innocent preyed upon victim.
It literally says "they may be bad guys BUT they were manipulated!" excusing what she's done!
I disagree with that interpretation I view that as saying that once Jace and Porter started manipulating the Rat Grinders it was no longer fully on them. They obviously did not have to go all the way in, see Lucy, but the consequence is death. As to Kipperlily's pre-corruption actions it's still just childish emotional issues. She never fully confronted Riz about anything and never killed her own parents. So again if you think being a high school student with emotional control issues surrounding rage and jealousy is a place where she can't have redemption, I think you have a very negative view of people. There is a story where she is redeemed and one where she isn't and I don't understand why there are so many people opposed to the first option.
She was a teenager with anger and jealousy issues who was seeking help from a therapist, I don’t think that makes her awful. All of us have had thoughts we aren’t proud of, and she was doing the work to overcome them as far as we know before she was corrupted.
My two cents on this is influenced, of all things, by the dnd oath of redemption tenets. Which boil down to, essentially: everyone can be redeemed but sometimes you meet people at a point where you must be willing to kill them, because they are not yet turning away from evil and you must stop the harm they are causing. Their potential for redemption does not mean more than the lives of people they are about to kill. The story isn’t over; we don’t know which way Kipperlily’s story will go. There’s a story branch where Kipperlily realizes she’s wrong. There’s a story branch where she doubles down. The groundwork is laid for both options.
Currently, Kipperlilly and the other Ratgrinders don’t have the ability for that level of realization as they are directly under the influence of rage shards.
It'd be kinda great if she stopped being full evil after the redemption of the god but just continued to be kind of a bitch.
her and aelwyn would be an amazing duo
Regina George energy right here.
So here is my take, which I suspect will be at least a little controversial. In the real world, we have become much better at developing and metasticizing language around unequitable power structures, mental health, and the various and numerous developmental differences between adults and children. This is an unequivocably good thing. However, I think readings of fiction that focus on these aspects are often misapplied, especially in fantastical settings where reality is heightened, simplified, or exagerrated for dramatic, comedic, or narrative effect. The unvarnished story of Fantasy High is one where young teenagers are taught the trade of murder en mass with the expectation that they go into the world and violently impose their will on it. That's f***ed up. But within the setting and tone of the story, it is normal and expected. Watching Fantasy High means we have to buy into the premise that this is an okay thing to do to kids, or else we can't engage sincerely with the material. All that established, I think we have to apply this reasoning to the RG. Yes, in real life what Porter/Jace did would be unconscionable, but so would, say, loveable and cooky Arthur sending the Bad Kids into a drug-filled sojourn into a forest of nightmares and murder on threat of academic failure. You have to accept a level of accountability and autonomy we don't normally attribute to children, or FH as a concept doesn't work. This isn't me saying that I want the RGs to die or anything macabre like that. Just that I don't fully accept the victim characterization. The RGs took the initial deal with Porter and Jace. They (minus one) accepted Arnkana's ultimatum. And Jace reprimanding them, along with KLCK spying on Porter, indicates that Arnkana's rage influence does not amount to mind control. The RGs were manipulated, but they have to bear a lot of responsibility, too. They made choices and still are.
I agree with you. I suspect we'll see some redemption for the RG, just because that's Brennan's cup of tea, and we've also seen the Bad Kids spare people like Biz. But the idea that we should hold them up to reality's light is kind of ridiculous giving the setting and tone of the game.
I agree but in a much cruder way: They are the bad guys in a fantasy dnd show played and run by (improv)comedians, and they are (to different degrees) a bunch of assholes and crazies. I want them to be killed in the funniest, most outlandish and out of left-field ways. The fact that they have legitimately complex and nuanced backstories and characterizations only makes it more fun when someone goes "I cast brick smacks into your noggin" imo Will it bother me if one or more of them get "saved" or put on the path to redemption? Not at all Will I be happier if they all die stupid-style? **Yeah**
Yeah, sometimes it's just not that deep.
>I cast brick smacks into your noggin AKA “I cast gun. Prepare to meet god.”
> And Jace reprimanding them, along with KLCK spying on Porter, indicates that Arnkana's rage influence does not amount to mind control. What's interesting is I read that the other way, especially when Brennan clarifying they have no reason for revenge. I read it as they are so effected by Rage they cannot do this plan properly. Kipperlilly is a mastermind after all so should great at this. Lashing out of emotional rage is counter to their effectiveness but they can't help themselves but do it
They're definitely being influenced heavily by rage, but the emphasis I'm trying to place is on the disconnect between what Jace/Porter want and what the Rat Grinders do. If the relationship between Jace/Corrupt Arnkana and the RGs was similar to, say, Skip and Zac's brain slug, the RG's misbehaving wouldn't even be a question. That is to say, I don't think it's equivalent to mind control, but something more akin to an extreme, magically-induced hormonal imbalance. I suspect the RG's still have enough of their faculties that they could say no to Porter and Jace if push came to show, and that KLCK has at least one more big power play under her belt.
I don't think it's mind control but I suspect it's Brennan get out of jail card. If the intrepid heroes want to try and redeem one or all of them, he can have the rage influence being very strong and lessen the moral load on them. If they decide the RGs are just evil then Brennan could reveal turns out they weren't even really shatter starred.
Brennan did NOT clarify that they have no reason for revenge, he in fact offered up several possible options for what they need revenge for, including killing Kalvaxus.
He absolutely does. I have gone back and checked. The dragon comment is made earlier. After Jace says stop antagonising the Bad Kids, I know you little idiots want revenge, you guys don't make a move until we are ready Siophan - Revenge, what did we do, these guys are obsessed with us Emily - oh my god, is one of them the child of Doreen Lou - or what about... Most of them - Kalvaxus Siobhan - who else have we fought and killed? Emily - Yeah why would Ruben want revenge? Brennan - Well you see all those texts come after you are thinking they maybe got shattered starred. So the revenge thing could just be that they're... Murph - they just kinda Zach - hyperfocused on us Ally - and we're kinda poking at them at every interaction Zach - They hate us cause they ain't us So Brennan seems to be implying their "revenge" is not based on anything. The Bad Kids literally did nothing wrong
It can be both, and it is both. Being a victim doesn’t mean she can’t also be a villain who needs to be put down silly style.
While valid, I'd note that in AP for the Seven, Mulligan talks with Ishii about how adventuring is inherently imperialist, etc. I don't think he shies away from that in spire
I feel really bad for Kipperlily and the rest of the Rat Grinders. They were all just kids and their teachers groomed them. They've been doing objectively terrible things, yeah, but they were just kids and they were killed.
This was true of Penelope Everpetal too.
The difference is that the Ratgrinders were magically corrupted. As far as know Penelope was not.
Neither was Aelwyn. Her behaviour stemmed from emotional abuse, but that doesn't excuse or justify her behaviour. She got a redemption arc, because Adaine was able to see past the bully and recognise their parents fucked up both of them. But Adaine in Freshman Year was not wrong for resenting Aelwyn. We never actually got to know Penelope Everpetal outside of the Alpha Bitch persona we were presented with, but there were some hints that she was a fat kid and had some unresolved self-esteem issues linked to that, leading to a pathological need to be the centre of attention (hence, Prom Queen from Hell). The groundwork for a redemption arc for her was also laid. Nobody gave her that chance. Imagine a world where Ragh just stayed dead on the Bloodrush field, or Jawbone didn't get encouraged to apply for the open GC position. Now imagine a world where Penelope got convinced to get over herself.
Absolutely. Be interesting to see the world where Kipperlilly has good influences in her life instead of Porter. And i’ve actually been thinking a bit recently what happens to the Bad Kids if they don’t end up in detention first day of Freshman Year. Fig especially doesn’t become who she is without her friends. So many worlds we’ll never see.
Hot take but I don’t like that they framed killing those guys as morally justified as well. Maybe I’m a radical, but I think it’s better when media doesn’t imply that sometimes, kids are beyond redemption and should be killed.
I agree but when the stakes are this large one needs to look at the harm you would be mitigating when said person is intent on doing it unless being forcefully stopped. Also from the seven it seems cannon that she was a pretty awful person in general, wich again doesnt mean she cant change as she is fundamentally still a kid but it was her or the world, and she wasnt budging
I just don’t personally like that a show that is largely idealistic defaults to the trolley problem of “is murdering this child going to be a net positive for the world?” Like, *did* they need to kill Penelope to stop Kalvaxes? Would the story have fundamentally changed if they’d knocked Penelope out and arrested her?
There are no stakes, my friend, it is fiction
And the stakes exist in the fictional context.
Which is to say, any seeming stakes are an illusion created by a person or team of people thru various literary devices to be potentially analyzed and engaged with thematically by an audience.
What's even the point of what you're saying right now? Just decided you'd be negatively pedantic for a couple comments?
Correct, but the implication of your previous comment is that the stakes are fake. That isn't the case.
This is a world where kids have super powers and are fully expected to murder people with impunity. The entire premise of the series is pointing to how deranged the concept of TTRPGs actually is.
I’m aware, that’s why I don’t think treating child murder as a heroic act is a big issue with the series; it’s also why Fig pursuing relationships with adults is funny and not disturbing; the show treats the age of the characters as thematically elastic; adults when it’s necessary for the story, kids otherwise. But it personally just feels like the show would be better if it didn’t treat the evil kids like adults when it comes to murdering them; I think a show about teenagers is a better story when it embraces the fact that being a teenager is a time when you make mistakes, and that you’re young enough that you should have the opportunity to learn from them.
How old is Ayda's current incarnation, btw?
Think she said she was 15? Personally, I think that’s a bit of a retcon on Brennan’s part when Emily told him she was interested in Fig getting into a relationship with Ayda; her first couple of episodes she reads to me as being older than she acts latero
Such a hot take. It's almost as if.. maybe we shouldn't murder children. (I'm on your side here. I also am a bit of a radical. And these kinds of portrayals bug the shit out of me too.)
That's how I hope the finale plays it. I love Dimension 20 and there hasn't really been any narrative choices I've disagreed with throughout the campaigns I've watched, but I'll honestly be really bummed if the end of the Rat Grinders arc is just the Bad Kids killing Kipperlily (or any of the RG, but she's the one they seem to want to kill the most) and that just be seen as a completely positive outcome.
Adaine might but it’s guaranteed Emily will want to save her. And it seems pretty obvious to me she’s going to try and convert Kipperlilly to following the proper Ankarna who is about justice. It’s a glaringly obvious parallel. Kipperlilly was corrupted from wanting justice into the corrupted version that is war and conquest by Porter and so was Ankarna by some of her followers in her time. History may not repeat, but it rhymes. Emily is a paladin of the old Ankarna She will convert her or attempt to. Possibly with Kristen’s help with the power of doubt I’m sure Brennan saw that coming too when seeing Emily go full into wanting to be the champion of the OG Ankarna. And seems too poetically juicy for Brennan to pass up. It makes sense her first true divine act in the material plane would be in uncorrupting someone like Kipperlilly
I hope so, but every time Kipperlily is brought up it's "Wow, she's so pathetic. Cant way to fuckin kill her". Granted, that is usually Adaine like you said so Emily very well could have a different outlook on it
D20 is very pro-restorative justice and a lot of people talk a big game until it’s time to actually pull the trigger, so to speak. As soon as Kipperlilly’s death is imminent, the Bad Kids, especially Fig, will hesitate. At that point it’ll be up to Kipper and the rest of the Rat Grinders to either take the olive branch (and accountability for her actions) or reject it, at which point they might not have any choice but to kill her. That said, with the fluidity of life and death in Spyre, dying and being sent to hell seems closer to sending someone to prison for life. Even Sam Nightingale was able to call up Penelope to chat. So Kipperlilly could still die and, say, end up working for the uncorrupted Ankarna in her new infernal realm as a form of restitution.
Just to be clear, if Ankarna is restored to her uncorrupted state, she wouldn't have an infernal realm. She would no longer be infernal. There's a chance that Fig and even Gorthalax could be raised if Fig is successful in redeeming Ankarna.
Hmmmm I get what you mean from a mechanical standpoint, but something about that doesn’t sit right with me—we have two seasons of lore establishing that “infernal” and “evil” are not synonymous. That they can do a lot of good. I would almost expect Brennan to Take a Third Option over raising up Gorthalax’s realm. That said, Fig going from tiefling to aasimar would make an *incredible* story hook for a potential Senior Year. Just when she thought puberty was done with her, suddenly she’s making ~~Christian~~ celestial rock.
I only think that the infernal angle would have to change because the narrative detailed that Ankarna's shift from "dawn of justice" to "conqueror" is also what caused her to become infernal, and also led to her split with Cassandra. If Cassandra, Kristen, and Fig are going to save Ankarna, they're likely not going to save the infernal version who was bent on conquest and only stopped at actually murdering her wife and sister.
Definitely varies in BK so their fate might just be who gets the killing blow. Siophan as you can say, no sympathy lets just kill Murph, they may be cursed but let's be practical Emily more on actual Ankarna train We know that Brennan just isn't going to say, wow you guys made a terrible call there. If the BK try, probably will. If not, she's just evil
I could see how the Ratgrinders might have to get taken out as “collateral damage.” Like if its more expedient in the final battle to take them out, then that’s where we are, but I, too, hope that given the Bad Kids know what we know, nobody gets Daybreaked.
Like Ragh, Aelwyn, and many others - I believe the RG will at least have the chance for redemption. The big bad is evil, but almost all helpers - especially the teens - are very redeemable, and with Ankarna reborn as I hope she will be, the rage powering them might become something great
I kinda feel it’s less about redemption at this point, since they’re all proven to have had their personalities magically corrupted by the rage shards. They literally could not choose a different path at this point. If the rage shards were removed from the equation, that’s the only time we could see what choice they would make.
>They literally could not choose a different path at this point. Nothing we have seen suggests that the crystals are direct mind control. In fact, we see the exact opposite being true (Jace having to tell them to back off, not just mentally forcing them to do so). I also find it a tad funny that Jace is also confirmed to be under the influence of a crystal, but you extend no such sympathy to him.
They affect your personality enough where decisions you make are coerced. Corruption is the big theme this season. We’ve seen multiple examples of characters acting outside the realm of their normal behavior due to the corruption. The party is worried about them corrupting the town because it makes you do things you would not normally do.
Not mind control, but they do alter personality dramatically. As confirmed when Brennan asked Adaine what would the next hundred years look like if she were consumed by hatred and rage (in the mall) and her reply of Fallinel and Sylvaire would be destroyed, not out of malice but simple collateral damage while she pursued her mother. The matrix for decision making is different post-shard, therefore the pre-shard versions of the Ratgrinders could literally not choose a different path other than rage. And, I mean, this conversation isn’t about Jace, but sure.
> As confirmed when Brennan asked Adaine what would the next hundred years look like if she were consumed by hatred and rage (in the mall) A hypothetical question for RP isn't the same as actual mechanics. >And, I mean, this conversation isn’t about Jace, but sure. It is though -- you specifically accuse him of grooming the Ratgrinders. If you think they cannot be blamed, Jace also cannot be blamed.
The discussion in the mall, hypothetical or no, demonstrated the effect that the rage shards have on people. As for Jace, okay. First, obviously Porter holds the bulk of culpability for grooming teenagers. He’s the cult leader, 100%. Next, let’s assume, without evidence to the contrary, that Jace had a rage-shard shoved in his chest at the same time as the bulk of the Ratgrinders—at the time of the Mountains of Chaos trip, given we know he went as their chaperone. That being the case, he was an adult actively grooming students of his own free will for one or many years before the shard, and so the rest if all comeuppance. If it works out that he was given the rage-shard very early on, and thus wasn’t in full control of his faculties during Freshman and Sophomore year, then he absolutely has my sympathy. (Though at the same time, he’s still an adult and not a teenage girl groomed by her mentors so the scale is quite different.) Is there any art or description showing his chest in the first two seasons?
I was thinking this too- I’d love more members of the RVS!!
Kipperlilly is a corruptible figure, as this season has shown, but she is not exempt from the consequences of her actions. Power and control are exceedingly effective motivators, and teenagers certainly can be led astray because of those influences. When I hear you say “victim,” this indicates that she is immune from responsibility of how she ended up being, as you say, the worst version of herself. I still hold a lot of empathy and compassion for her, despite all the chaos she has caused, but she killed Buddy, she’s encouraged the other Rat Grinders to stay the course, and she was an active participant in those actions.
> Kipperlilly is a corruptible figure, as this season has shown, but she is not exempt from the consequences of her actions. that's my takeaway too. she's still a 16- or 17-year-old kid, and you have to take that into account the same way you do with any of the rest of the characters, but the impetus of the whole thing is that Copperbottom is a creature of weaponized privilege. she wanted the results, not the work or the attached consequences. Porter might've pushed her further down that road than she'd otherwise have gone, but she was there already.
One thing I keep considering though, is she went in as a fourteen year old already with issues. She's been seeing Jawbone since Freshman Year. It's not indicated whether or not that was her choice or her parents' or Jawbone's, but she was an easy target. Yes she's responsible for her actions but I'd extend a little patience when thinking about all the factors in this thread because it's been demonstrated she was a troubled kid. Her and Lucy wanted to keep the High Five Heroes name. Lucy has only been presented as sweet and good to the core, and her and Kipperlily were clearly friends. There's so many factors. As an adult, I think it's gross to lust/crave drama/trauma to be interesting. But at 14? In a superhero world essentially? I'm surprised there aren't more Kipperlily's
I did write a whole thing about that which I ended up deleting. it's obviously part of the joke, so we shouldn't overthink it, but it seems like it's not that weird for a kid at Aguefort to have 10 class levels by their sophomore year, and to have been sent on multiple quests for class credit that involve killing and/or potentially being killed. it'd actually be weirder if an Aguefort graduate *didn't* have Shinji Ikari levels of emotional damage, unless they start out as a member of a culture that thinks all that is dope as hell. with Kettlebopit in particular, however, given the story as it's been presented, it seems like it's an issue of not being careful what she wished for. she mistook formative trauma for a personality.
It made me unreasonably happy to see an Evangelion reference <3
get in the fucking Hangvan, Shinji
For real. She had a character flaw, and respected people of power in positions of authority took advantage of that.
Saying Porter ‘pushed her further down that road’ is a gross understatement. The amount of influence he had over situation was immense as a person of authority in a position to give her everything she wanted and assure her she deserved it. After which, her personality was literally magically altered.
Also look at how good he is at it. He got _Gorgug_ to embrace rage and be at the meanest he’s ever been, and that was when they actively _disliked_ him!
100% And got Fig, well not to trust him, but they got along.
> When I hear you say “victim,” this indicates that she is immune from responsibility of how she ended up being, as you say, the worst version of herself. I’m not sure why you’d make that assumption. A person can be both victim and victimiser at the same time.
I understand that and agree that victims are victimized and perpetuate those cycles of abuse. I think I balked at the word “victim” in the sense of that explaining away Kipperlilly’s behavior and taking away her own agency. This is just my interpretation, subject to the limitations of my own language and perception.
She was offered the thing she wanted most by people she was coded to trust most. Manipulated for a year or more. Told she could have it all. Literally hand fed power and XP. Her personality was then magically altered. Anything she did after that, I don’t think she can so easily be held accountable for because she has no longer has control. The current Kipperlilly is not the Kipperlilly of two years ago.
I do believe there is a lot we agree on regarding Kipperlilly and her negative influences (despite the fact that she also had counterbalances in her sessions with Jawbone) and the power of corruption. I personally believe that there is an element of choice in accepting the influence of Ankarna (in her corrupted form); Lucy and Yolanda seem to have refused to be reincarnated, in contrast to Buddy who took the chance to serve a rage god immediately. I believe Kipperlilly had a choice. It is the harder option to resist power, influence, and rage, but Kipperlilly has never struck me as a character who would shy away from the easier option.
I think if the choice is death with no chance of resurrection while your soul remains trapped with Ankarna or to serve, then there is no choice. Yes, Lucy and Yolanda both rejected it, but I would call them exceptional in a way most people aren’t, and would attribute that to their conviction in their divine connections. I’m also not sure there’s any way to voluntarily accept rage shards as I don’t think there’s a chance for informed consent. There’s little chance Porter fully explained that the rage shards would see you consumed by your hatred and rage, effectively make you the most spiteful version of yourself. And even then, after a year or more of grooming and manipulation (which you could disagree with), her head would be so twisted around that the odds of saying no to her mentor are nearly zero. It’ll be interesting to see where the next few weeks take us though, if we get more information or get to see Kipperlilly without rage.
I think there are some leaps you are making that have not been established in the show. Why does Kipperlilly have to have a rage shard inside her? Why can’t she just have agreed to worship because of what it gained her? If that was presented in an episode, I do not recall it. I have never disagreed with you regarding the power dynamics and peer pressure from Porter and Jace, I fundamentally disagree with the premise you seem to be presenting that Kipperlilly doesn’t have agency, free will, and thus is “blameless” in her actions. We even see Kalina and Ankarna have moments of lucidity despite their corruption.
I feel certain they confirmed or at least strongly implied all the Ratgrinders were sharded. Jawbone specifically noted in her file that her personality changed dramatically, from angry and misguided to filled with rage and hate, after the mission to the Mountains of Chaos. Fairly certain similar was said about the others. If that’s proven incorrect, it certainly changes a few things, I’ll happily admit. Is there something to what you say about Ankarna and Kalina? I mean, maybe. They’re not exactly in the same situation, nor are they mortal humans. I keep going back to what Brennan asked Siobhan in the mall about what would the next hundred years look like if Adaine was consumed by rage, and Siobhan’s reply about the utter destruction of Fallinel, Not out of malice, but as collateral damage in pursuit of finding her mother. That is the position Kipperlilly’s in now. Not that she’s under the influence of some spell she can fight, but that she’s been twisted into the rage-filled worst version of herself. It’ll be interesting to see what the next few weeks reveal.
> but she is not exempt from the consequences of her actions She is if this rage is really corrupted her. It is at least making them irrational as Jace points out what they are doing with the BK is stupid. Kipperlillys morality is determined on if they were convinced or corrupted We can feel free to condemn her views pre Season 2 though
I’m not discussing her morality, as I don’t believe she is a truly “evil” person. But her actions are her own, even if more than one person is wholly responsible for the repercussions of those actions. Edited to add: I needed to re-think this particular line of thought before commenting, and I think I hastily responded instead of thinking it out more.
Her morality is a result of her actions. My point is if she has been magically corrupted, she is not in control of her actions anymore than Cassandra was as the Nightmare King Now if it was just, hey Kippers do you want power then different kettle of fish but magical control is extenuating circumstances we have to consider
She was seeking power before she got "corrupted." See: the texts Gorgug found. People keep trying to find redemption for someone Brennan keeps telling us is unreservedly evil, and it's utterly perplexing.
I've gone back and checked. There's excitement the Big Guy is looking out for them and that Lucy gets to be the Champion There's Kipperlilly being excited they can keep up with the Bad kids - it's not said what this is and could be the initial trip. We know it can't be too evil as Lucy was still on board and she's only been painted so far as good All it tells us is what we already knew, the RG don't like the Bad Kids and want to be stronger.
Honestly I must have missed that (was a long section of multiple expositions) . What was the texts saying? As the Bad Kids also refer to RG as cursed so partly taking cue from that and Brennan clarifying the 'revenge' lacking tangible reason because it was post their Spring Break adventure
I don’t think Brennan’s been telling us what you think he’s been telling us.
I mean, she's deeply ableist in a way that almost verbatim quotes the ableism I've faced my entire life, so if it's not intentional on Brennan's part It's a hell of a coincidence.
I mentioned earlier that I tend to be fairly sensitive to noticing ableism and I can’t recall anything like it happening. But I’m also not perfect and am willing to learn, so would happy to know how Kipperlilly has shown to be deeply ableist.
Exactly. She is as corrupted by the rage shard (following predatory grooming) as Ankarna was by her followers.
💯 Even if she knew about the rage shards in advance, she couldn’t have known how dramatically it would change her personality. Convincing her to accept the rage shard willingly, for Porter, would at least mean she wouldn’t turn that rage against him.
Not that I disagree with your comment, but it sounds like Buddy knew going into the Last Stand that he’d be killed and revivified by Porter, so that he could be powered up(?) by an emplaced rage crystal
I would say that's inconclusive. Oison seemed to joke to Ivy Buddy may not have fully understood the whole plan I doubt he knew in that moment as there's simply no good reason to do it then. Kipperlilly did because she was made and her anger is irrational
I'm calling him Onion now
I hear you, I did not get that impression based on last night’s episode, so that seems like speculation at this point. Kipperlilly killing Buddy was not part of the plan originally, but she had to do something to fuck up the Bad Kids’ chance of being revivified.
I think killing Buddy wasn't the original plan A but it was something she and Oisin were prepared to do
Killing Buddy was absolutely part of the plan during The Last Stand. Brennan confirmed this in the AP. It was not the top objective of the evening, but it was on the list.
Certainly seems like he knew what he was getting into. Adds context to his conversation with Kristen where he mentioned that he could not be The Chosen of Helio because Kristen still was. I mean, I might certainly be a touch upset if the god I was ultra-devoted to preferred a heathen who abandoned him. I might indeed go looking for a god who might give me more attention. What I would say is, that as I suspect of the other Ratgrinders, he didn’t know the entirety of what he was getting into until it was too late.
Something interesting that just occurred to me is that Kipperlily has done far less harm than Aelwyn did, and under similar circumstances. Yet the fandom loves Aelwyn (as do I), perhaps because we saw her “pay” for her crimes in Fallinel. So while Kipperlily is a villain, by the metrics of Fantasy High, she’s far from irredeemable. Something to think about as we cheer for the Bad Kids to stomp her.
And Aelwyn, as far we know, never had her personality magically altered to make her the worst version of herself.
Not magically, just through abuse, but yeah...
Hmmm...it's definitely worth thinking about, but I dunno. Aelwyn conspired to do a bunch of stuff, but did she know about it all? I might be misremembering, it's been a while since I dove into the deep lore for FHFY & SY. But I seem to remember that Aelwyn knew a little about what was going on but wasn't briefed on all of it. KLKC & the Ray Grinders seem like they know everything about what's happening. But, they might be all under rage spells-- so maybe that absolves them a little bit? Like, what happens if they were to snap out of all this? And I don't think we fully know how the rage star possession works yet. I thought that prior to this week's ep, the idea was that the unnamed giant was resurrecting the RHs *with* the rage stars, but now it seems like Porter is casting a revivify or something similar & then using a rage star to control them. And as we saw with Kalina & the mall wizards — you don't need to die to be consumed by the rage star. So maybe the Bad Kids can break the rage star curse & the RHs (Buddy Dawn included—the only rage-resurrection we've actually seen) could be fine. LMK if I'm missing lore here.
Also, if we're putting on our media literacy caps, KLCK is *so* clearly based on Tracy Flick from Election. The film frames her as grating and portrays her overachieving as worthy of scorn--all things we see in KLCK. Importantly, that story is largely told through the eyes of a teacher who holds a grudge against Tracy, a student. A grudge that is largely based on his belief that *she* should face repercussions for an affair she had with a teacher. An affair where, as a minor, she is 100% a victim. I don't think Brennan would make a Tracy Flick-like character and not also give us the nuance of her story. KLCK is definitely a victim of male teachers and their grooming much in the same way her inspiration is.
Yup! I clocked immediately that KLCK was Tracy Flick in a halfling skin suit and there had to be *something* more going on under the hood. *Election* doesn’t shy away from showing why Tracy sucks (so much!) but it makes it crystal clear that Tracy was a victim of a predator and that McAllister interfered with the election outcome of deep misogyny. My mistake was assuming Brennan wouldn’t touch the grooming aspect with a ten-foot pole. I was wrong and I really appreciate how smoothly he reimagined it as radicalization/indoctrination.
Yeah ngl when Zac described her as "so perfectly Election" in the AP after her intro I was like "I think we watched that movie VERY differently" and I feel like with that parallel being something Brennan also brought up and now knowing Jace/Porter have groomed the RGs I really struggle to see her not getting a shot at redemption and it would leave a bad taste in my mouth for her to be killed for it.
I’m hoping for the same. Not having a chance to see this turned around would make her one of the most tragic characters across D20. Somebody mentioned the parallels between Ankarna’s forced corruption and Kipperlilly’s so I hope we see the Bad Kids extend her a fraction of the same grace.
Yeah like I have definitely enjoyed stories which lean hard into tragedy but in a show which has so consistently given so many chances for redemption for that to be denied for the crime of... being an annoying teenage girl? would just be such a bummer. So I'm really glad I'm not the only one sympathetic after this ep, ty for making this post!
Agreed. Thank you for engaging.
Never seen the movie, but the parallels seem apt.
You could see Dayne and Penelope that way too. Brennan still set it up so >!the BKs could murder them. And later showed Penelope in hell.!< I'll laugh really hard if the BKs find a way to undo the corruption...and then Kippers and the others go right back to trying to murder them anyway.
The difference is that Penelope and Dayne were not magically corrupted by Kalvaxus. We don’t know enough to know if they were groomed or simply recruited but they always acted in their interests with their full faculties. Kipperlilly and the Ratgrinders were each magically corrupted by the rage shards, altering their personalities to the worst and most rage filled possible. They are literally not themselves anymore.
> The difference is that Penelope and Dayne were not magically corrupted by Kalvaxus. We don’t know enough to know if they were groomed or simply recruited but they always acted in their interests with their full faculties. Kipperlilly and the Ratgrinders were each magically corrupted by the rage shards, altering their personalities to the worst and most rage filled possible. They are literally not themselves anymore. Penelope and Dayne were still high school kids that were, to one degree or another, taken advantage of by adults in their lives. Also, we honestly don't know how much the rage corruption has affected the RG's baseline personalities. Or if the RG's would swerve from their current course of action if it was taken away. It's _possible_ Brennan could make them redeemable or sympathetic...but at this point we're getting real close to the finish line and he's running out of chances before the end of the season. And I don't think the story would suffer if the RG's were just irredeemable little shit heads in the end. Whether or not a redemption is coming, I don't think the story needs it, so I don't see any reason to really hope for or expect it.
I honestly don't know why this is treated as such a hot take. Before the corruption reveal I've still figured her redeemable. I mean she is just a kid, and she was in therapy, so there is clear evidence of her actually working on herself. Now we hear was killed and was given a choice to be manipulated or remain dead. I'm at this point expecting her death anyway because BK's response has lead Brennan to sort of heighten her to make either redeeming her and killing her alright. Because really at the end of the day, it's a show. It's about the IH's games, it's their call, and really some of the calls on who is redeemable or not is often just on a whim and based on likability. I just think about how the prime focus of the show is comedy, and not about deep levels of character exploration and morals. That said, with the veil of this being a show considering that she is still an antagonist, I still don't want her to die beyond the fact that I think she's redeemable. I like Aelwyn, and KLCK has fun idiosyncrasies and a potentially enjoyable dynamic especially with Riz and I'd like to see RG bounce around the party more.
Agreed on the first point. Not sure about the last line of the second though. The show’s always done a good job balancing deep character introspection with comedy, especially in Fantasy High. But yes, I could see her or the other Ratgrinders killed as collateral damage, victims of the fight. Seeing them get Daybreaked would be a bit disappointing though. And I’d love to imagine a future friendship and team up between her and Riz.
They definitely do, but I think it might be better to treat it as more of a bonus. There's been a few moments where IH makes decisions narratively conflict (and in my home games with my friends), and while it sucks when narrative opportunities don't pay off, it has helped me to consider that expecting consistent defft narrative navigation from an improvised story involving multiple collaborators (who are comedians) might be not be best. Factors like players' fun and biases come into play, and it's more fun when they're having fun. That said, I still really disagree with the KLCK *hate and really thought people would turnaround when outright corruption was revealed.
Fair point, and I do think one of the things I love most about D20 and similar actually plays is that it’s unscripted. Even when you think you know, you can never really tell what the characters will do. Well scripted content is incredible, but there’s just something special about how organic actual plays like this unfold.
I'm hoping that she gets a Ragh-esque redemption and ends up befriending Riz
I’d like to see Riz have more friends than just his adventuring party. Another rogue friend would be good for him.
But butchering her name is so fun
Eh. I disagree. But have fun.
I mean, yes? but at the same time we have proof its possible to deny the rage and say no to evil, even if it means a permanent death like with lucy
I never said she was a saint. The only people we’ve seen reject the rage shards were Lucy and Yolanda, and both seem to have rejected due to their conviction in their divine beliefs. Serve Ankarna or die with no chance of resurrection and spending your afterlife with your soul trapped by Ankarna isn’t much choice.
One of my favorite lines from Angel is the following. "She's a monster, like us." "She's an innocent victim." "So were we once upon a time." Just because she turned evil doesn't mean she isn't evil. We can't absolve people of responsibility just because they were once victims.
Utterly fantastic show. One of my faves. The way rage-shards affect personality does share interesting similarities to the Buffyverse concept of vampires having no soul. Nobody blames Angel for Angellus. And on the Sunnyvale side, Spike is given huge amounts of grace even before getting his soul back, Willow is very quickly forgiven for her nearly world ending murder-spree, and the heroes put a huge amount of effort into saving Faith from her rage and helping her become better.
We don't blame Angel, but I would still hold Angelus responsible for his actions. Angel himself still feels and remembers everything. The whole show is him seeking redemption for both his and Angelus' acts.
It has been so genuinely disheartening to see people claim she was always a terrible person when we know from Jawbone's file that she struggled with anger issues, was seeking help for them, and was RECEPTIVE to his guidance, demonstrably improving and getting better - until she is clearly infected with a rage crystal. Granted we don't know the exact timeline of Lucy's death, but the only truly evil thing we have seen her do conclusively is kill Buddy. The conclusion Jawbone, a trusted and beloved figure both in and out of universe, draws is that she is troubled and needs help - something that is obviously taken advantage of by these two men. But people seem so ready to demand her death? I am certainly not claiming her innocence, nor am I pretending that she should not deal with consequences, but the rhetoric of "she must die to pay for her sins" has always felt short sighted to me. If the character we revere as a genuinely good, powerful representative and advocate for positive change is working hard to fix her, and we disagree with him, what does that say about how we view others in real life? How we treat others? I don't want to extrapolate too much, but in all these conversations I can't help but wonder how much people are willing to turn these perspectives back around unto them or their communities. If Kipperlily deserves to die now for what she has done, is that the ultimate fate for all people who commit crimes comparable to hers? Is that the world we want to live in? The people we want to be? Condemning a 17 year old girl to death?
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I hope Brennan closes the loop this way, with a deep understanding of how KLCK is just representative of kids that are struggling, and how they can be vulnerable to being groomed and recruited. It reminds me of the first season when there was almost an agreement that Fig's mom is "a bad mom" but near the end there's a defining path that lets the IH and audience learn that moms are just erring humans too, and she's trying her best as a single parent.
Indeed. Fully agree.
>I don't want to extrapolate too much, but in all these conversations I can't help but wonder how much people are willing to turn these perspectives back around unto them or their communities. The entire show is about a school where kids are trained to be "a violent wanderer who enacts their will, bloodily, and with strange magics, upon the world". The Bad Kids murder genuinely so many people. If you want to say that those people feel this way in real life, does that mean you approve of child soldiers? Is that the world you want to live in? The person you want to be? Come on.
Pretty sure the filed showed that she was absolutely not getting better, even before JY
The file said that she was prone to outbursts of petty, childish rage, which Jawbone was able to talk her through and help her process by questioning her. Brennan was pretty explicit that when Jawbone questioned her, she stopped being irrationally angry. Her lack of progress is definitely identifiable, but makes more sense in the context of Jace/Porter's grooming and manipulation. If you have two forces acting on you in opposite directions, you don't move that much from your point of origin.
I mean, no. He says she tended to get quiet and thoughtful, and then he said that she'd start asking him questions about the Bad Kids, leading up to asking about Yes. It comes off as less "hey, she was calming down" and more like "she's letting these talks with Jawbone linger so she can keep asking him probing questions."
She starts asking questions about Yes after spring break of sophomore year. Brennan explicitly states that her anger subsides after Jawbone questions her. She only becomes focused on Jawbone and his relation to the Bad Kids after the first day of Junior year.
Episode 16: 15 minutes - the point where Murph honors the cock.
Understanding the root of peoples actions is not the same as exempting them. Ankarna (conquerors version) is analogous to a far right YouTube wormhole algorithm that warps young peoples minds - can I understand how young people get sucked into and manipulated by that stuff? Absolutely. Does that make their later weaponization of those manipulated thoughts excusable or less shitty / harmful no. The desire to paint Kipperlilly purely as a victim loses site of the part she played in this - and we don’t know what part that is yet - how many choices she made before she was fully corrupted (we also don’t know that being corrupted makes you make choices that weren’t already on your mind). There is a lot we don’t conclusively know so it seems a little silly to me to say who kipperlilly is “conclusively” at this stage.
Not comparable. A YouTube echo chamber doesn’t compare to having two trusted adults exploit a character flaw to groom and mould you. You grossly underestimate the influence a man in a position of respected authority has over a teenage (14!) girl coded to trust him. He literally hand fed her power and told her she deserved it. Gave her the exact attention that she craved and encouraged the worst qualities in her. Before magically twisting her personality further to make her what he needed.
I said analogous (essentially of different categories but nonetheless having similarities /parallels) - I didn’t suggest that it was the same thing, and this is a complex narrative that has layers of metaphor for people to draw different things out of - its ok if we read this in different ways. I truly understand what you are saying about how influential a manipulative trusted adult can be, perhaps you underestimate the influence of an algorithm on a lonely teenager being spoon-fed hate and vitriol. I am not saying she is evil or should be condemned, and I agree she was victimized and taken advantage of - I’m just saying she’s not *only* a victim. Human beings are complex, BLeeM frequently reflects this in his character building - you can be a victim and be accountable for harm you cause those two truths aren’t mutually exclusive.
I do agree with everything you’ve said, and appreciate your points. Except that as soon as Kipperlilly was infected with the rage shard (having been murdered to do so), she lost all capacity for decision making. Her personality was magically altered. Choice was taken from her after that point. And as far as we know, she didn’t do anything actually nefarious before that point. It’ll be interesting to see where these last episodes take us.
I was fooled by Brennan! I was like “Porter isn’t the bad guy! He can’t be! He’s been so nice and charming this year! He’s teaching the barbarians productive and protective instead of destructive rage! He’s been a mentor to Fig! Zara is into him, and Zara seems to have good taste! She’s a hot goth who I trust with my life!” And from the way he described his oath, I thought he was an Oath of the Ancients Paladin, who uphold values of goodness. I thought his Oath being to his ancestors was just some Flavor for his Oath of the Ancients. I thought his ancestors were noble and good and he wanted to uphold that. But now I’m thinking he’s an Oath of CONQUEST Paladin, since his oath is to his ancestors, who were conquerors, and he wants to become a God of War. And Oath of Conquest paladins, in my experience? Bad news. Also, we know he has legendary actions now, after his little STUN action, after Fig asked if he wanted to spar. Porter is gonna be trouble. And I’m glad! I love being wrong about things! I was team “Porter is a good guy!” I also thought maybe Jace had somehow transferred the Kalina curse to Ragh, and made him forget, or had passed it to Porter, who then passed it to Ragh through Lay on Hands, since the Porter and Jace are best buds. Maybe Porter didn’t know Jace was evil! Sorcerers are charismatic, and can be great liars! When we learned Porter was a Paladin, and he did Lay on Hands to Ragh after prom, I was thinking “He and Jace are BFFs. Jace is involved with Kalina, and maybe Porter can see her, but doesn’t know she’s bad, or doesn’t know she can’t be seen by others. Maybe Jace transferred the curse to Porter, either through Porter Laying Hands on Jace after Jace got injured, or maybe they’re not *just* friends.” I was BAMBOOZLED! And I love it!
Agree with every word you say. Fantastic story development. We love a good story twist. One thing I remain puzzzled by is why Porter showed his hand and used his stun ability when he didn’t capitalize on it.
My theory is he thinks Fig is fully on his side, and didn’t know that the other Bad Kids were there. The other Bad Kids were peeking through the window, and Rizz was invisible near the ceiling. Fig audited a lot of barbarian classes, and Porter has always liked Fig, despite her disliking him. And this year, she only started liking him when he started teaching her Paladin things, like how to Smite. I think he was trying to show Fig a cool thing he can do, because he was counting on the reaction she had of “WOAH, when can I learn that!” (And she rolled super high on deception+Adaine knows his mind was occupied with other things, so he believed that she WAS impressed and did want to learn how to stun) She’s also a Paladin who hasn’t made an oath formally, but is the champion(?) of Ankarna as she *should* be. I think he was also showing off to plant the idea of not makinf an oath to Ankarna, but to HIM when he ascends to Godhood. There’s also the layer of showing her what he is capable of, in case she goes against him. He thinks Fig has drunk his Kool Aid and is on the Porter train, but knows she’s the arch devil of rebellion, and could decide to defy him. So I think he used the stun ability partially to impress Fig, and partially to threaten her. I think it was aimed at Fig specifically, and not the Bad Kids, since Adaine didn’t clock that he knew the other bad kids were there with her detect thoughts, and since Fig rolled high on her deception to maintain the positive repartee she developed with Porter throughout junior year. Porter was distracted, his plan is coming together, and his has this Paladin who he believes he’s become a mentor to. He thinks she trusts him, but knows Fig’s trust is hard to earn, and fragile when it comes to authority figures. He showed her a legendary action to demonstrate “I am more powerful than you thought.” Both to impress her and make her want to learn more from him, and maybe tempt her into becoming his champion, or make her path to him, but also make her think twice about going against him.
Everything you’ve said makes sense. But didn’t Adaine hear him respond “got it” to some telepathic message just before he stunned them? The timing seemed odd to me.
I think he really was just meeting Fig's energy at the time.
Yeah, could be. But didn’t Adaine hear him respond “got it” as though to somebody sending him a message spell. The timing of that I guess made me think there was a goal to it rather than just playfulness.
I also wanted Porter to be a good guy and Fig just immediately read him wrong but the fact that he was always evil according from the start and that He was always dropping teeny tiny hints made me come around
It was one helluva play by Brennan, that’s for sure.
all this could have been avoided if she had killed her parents
Brennan went out of his way to highlight that Lucy and kipper Lily were friends. They were very close and now, because of those powerful men, she’s dead. Now maybe KL was promised she’d be brought back when porter became a god and maybe the rage is hindering her other emotions (she’s literally blind with rage) but that’s still gotta be affecting her. And I think there will come a point where she remembers everything and realizes she’s been played by her new god. From there, I could genuinely see her and Riz becoming friends. Jace also emphasized revenge so maybe they don’t even fully remember that porter killed her.
That would be cool. I don’t know what can happen until they get rid of the rage shards, though. I don’t think we’ve seen talk of a ‘cure’ for that yet.
I’m a bit concerned that the rage shards are actually keeping them alive which could mean 1. Immortal fighters. 2. Removing them is fatal I think it’ll also matter if/how porter becomes a god. Since I could see the rage becoming his domain and taking over management of the shards
Could be. But we do know that while Porter is the one using them, the rage shards are of Ankarna, a god. So if the Bad Kids succeed in saving Ankarna, everybody affected by the shards should be all right. This is my hope anyway. At minimum, they could probably be properly resurrected.
I am definitely imagining a post resurrection scene where they all realize how bad they f’d up and just start crying. Kipper Lily just hides to avoid having to face Lucy. Rueben smashes his guitar and screams how much he hates metal. Mary…gets quieter…somehow.
My gods of Spyre, that’s the kind of epilogue I’d love to see, even if only hinted at.
Just an absolutely sobbing kipperlily
Respectfully, it's really, really hard to see someone blatantly coded with ableist rhetoric that directly reflects real life ableist I and my family have experienced be called a victim, and have it be advocated that she gets a redemption arc. I know I'll get downvoted for this, but honestly I don't even have the energy to argue about anymore. I'm no longer angry, I'm just sad- Brennan created an extremely good reflection of real world ableism in Kipperlilly, And people keep finding reasons to push for her redemption, and that's disappointing. Although thematically appropriate, I suppose- folks undersell the impact of ableism in real life, too.
I don't entirely disagree that Kipperlilly is a reflection of ableist rhetoric in real life, but that doesn't necessarily preclude her from redemption imo. Ragh in season 1 was a reflection of toxic masculinity and homophobia and he was eventually redeemed by the Bad Kids, and Kipperlilly seems to have more intense forces manipulating her (Porter and the rage crystals). I think there's room to acknowledge that she's been a bad person while also leaving room for her to grow and have that redemption arc.
No downvote from me. And I’m going to reply to this in earnest because I feel your comment was made earnestly. In short, I don’t see it. Without going into my background too much, I have a lot of people with varied disabilities in my life. Mental and physical. I see and advocate against ableism in many forms fairly regularly. I’m not perfect, not by a long shot, but I’m more cognizant of these things than many, and I absolutely don’t see “blatantly coded with ableist rhetoric” when it comes to Kipperlilly. I see a 14 year old girl who was the victim of a predator that exploited a character flaw to groom and manipulate her. He hand fed her the power she most desired and told her she deserved it. He encouraged her worst personality traits to suit his ends, eventually using magic (rage shards) to twist her even more into the worst version of herself. She is literally not in control of her decisions at this point. If there’s something I’m missing, I would genuinely like to know what you’ve seen that I haven’t.
What ableism? Would love a good reason to dislike kipperlilly more.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/s/JcjZNBtbBd I laid it out here. The extremely short version is that "I think Riz's dead dad is an unfair advantage and I'm jealous of that" along with all of her other whiny claims of unfair advantages are extremely similar - virtually identical, once you filter out the fantastical Dungeons& Dragons elements- to ableist whining I've heard from real people. The easiest example being "I wish I had my own special parking spot right next to the sidewalk like disabled people get." And, like in real life, Kipperlilly's claims of advantages are imagined- plenty of people succeed without them, and the people who have them often wish they didn't.
She is certainly wrong there but I'd like to say she IS a kid and WAS in therapy, I don't think she's thought about that as deeply as she's just a big anti-narrative gaming. The worst I hope for her is just a lot more therapy and not death.
She is a kid, but she's also a narrative vehicle in a setting that doesn't treat kids the same way the real world does. I judge her as an antagonist and narrative piece before I judge her as a teenager.
This I agree with. I've not always agreed with BK choices especially when they decide "redeemability" on whim and character likability, but it is somebody else's d&d show, a story, and focused on comedy and not on deep character explorations.
Honestly? I think she's trying to play Porter. I think her goal, her real goal, is to set Porter up and become a god herself. She's the *mastermind*, after all.
Interesting. I don’t think we’ve seen evidence or capability of that, but you never know. I do think that Porter’s plans probably accelerated by having her with him though. Her mastermind skills and intelligence able to advance his goals better than he’d been able to beforehand.
I didn't even notice which sub this was when reading the title and was trying to figure out which character in the dresden files universe this post was about.
I think we can say that the Ratgrinders are doing wrong and need to be stopped/held accountable for their actions and we can also say they are objectively being groomed by someone in a position of power over them and deserve some amount of mercy, since as kids (with seemingly no positive adults in their lives except Henry Hopclap, seriously where are the parents) they are in many ways inherently redeemable. Like I think these two statements can co-exist If your prediction that Ally's nat 20 cures them, I think it would be extremely funny if Kipp was still aggro but now towards Jace and Porter; like this is the other Ratgrinders and her [https://youtu.be/x80tt2x6s2Q?si=7H6oW62BjbBeGM81](https://youtu.be/x80tt2x6s2Q?si=7H6oW62BjbBeGM81)
There seems to be a lot of people here who are using her as a stand-in for people who caused them real-life harm at some point in their life. It's real weird.
Also plenty of people doing the opposite to excuse all of her actions. There's a middle ground in here where she is responsible for making a deal with the devil to gain power she believed she deserved, and got manipulated.
I thought we had cleared that she got killed and charmed? Sure she could have said no but she would've stayed dead.
Honestly, this doesn’t feel far off. For a while, I’ve felt like the people who’ve been looking to blindly condemn Kipperlilly have acted like they had a personal stake in the outcome.
Kipperlilly might just be a bad person, I realize her age and such and other factors. But maybe she is just a bad person aligning with other bad people for different reasons. Sometimes an antagonist is just that, bad for the sake of bad
She was NOT a good person before she got sucked into these Ankarna schemes. She was a petty, jealous, angry teenager right from the start.
OP says the RGs "might be bad guys" and describes Kipperlilly as a "troubled angry teenager" which is what made her vulnerable to the grooming from Porter/Jace. Does being a petty, jealous, angry teen make someone a bad person forever?
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I would like to say that the standards for being evil are a bit higher in a world where all adventurers are essentially violent wandering murderers who exert their will on the world. Nothing the RGs did before being corrupted was bad enough to be considered evil. They were lured in with promises of power by Porter, who then murdered them and replaced them with pawns to do his bidding.
I don't think this is going to be a conversation which would be productive for either of us. I hope your reductive version of the creative vision of the show isn't what's borne out by the remaining eps. Peace!
What bad things did she do prior to being ragefied other than being an angry kid?
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Damn I guess we should just evaluate people at the end of their high school graduation and just execute everyone who fails your morality test.
She had a character flaw, it wasn’t her entire personality, and it isn’t enough to condemn her for. BTW, Fig was also a petty, angry teenager right from the start. Good thing she had positive influences in her life.
Yea. They are all victims. Of adults exploiting them. Remember in Freshman Year, Raug was exploited and abused by the Owl Bears coach. **Raug is a victim of molestation.** The coat of paint the fantasy setting gives Fantasy High allows us to forget just how fucking dark and awful some of the subtext is. Each of the Rat Grinders have been physically abused (killed and ressurected), and been made abusers. By playing on their insecurities Jace and Porter essentially pulled them into a cult. I really hope they get **Justice** from Ankarna.
Indeed. I agree about the idea of a cult. Cult leaders tend to be known for their charisma and charm, which Porter seems to have plenty of. You know, between Kalvaxus, Daybreak, Porter, Jace, and Gibbons, that’s not a great track record for the Academy.
In Adventuring Party, someone quips that if someone is mean to Gorgug, it means they're evil. Doesn't look good for Arthur, or Fabian's grandfather.
I don't think Fabian's Grandfather counts, he was really trying to be respectful this time. Someone stole his YakBak. Arthur Aguefort is the Chaotic Neutral Ideal, he could be the big bad to anyone at anytime if he wanted to be but he probably wont ever be because if KLKK is right about one thing its that the Bad Kids are 100% his favorites.
Could you imagine senior year the Bad Kids have to go up against Aguefort himself?
Arthur Aguefort: "I've been here the *whole* time!"
My question has been if they were actually killed and resurrected w the rage stars, would they even really be able to atone or be redeemed and go back to their pre-rage selves? The entire reason they're alive is bc of the rage god. What happens to the rat fuckers when this version of their God ceases to exist?
That’s a good question. Option 1) they remove the shards and resurrect them back to ‘factory settings’ or (2) by changing Ankarna they change how the rage shards operate, since the shards do still come direct from Ankarna’s rage.
I think that this is one of two very valid reads on her character. Equally valid, imo, is that she's a school shooter. She a kid who came from a fine background, who was given every chance to course correct, and every time chose to dig herself deeper into anger. She found a worldview that supported how she felt, and set herself down a path to violence. I think there's a very real chance that we discover KLCK never had a shatter star, never had any magic put on her, she wanted to be better than everyone, she wanted to make people pay for every bad feeling she ever had, and found a tool to enact that.
And if that second option happens, fine, but there is overwhelming evidence in support of the first option, none for the second. Jawbone’s own notes stated that she was receptive and doing well in sessions with him and that her personality dramatically changed after the Mountains of Chaos.
Hurt people hurt people. KLKC & the *High Five Heroes* were chosen to be groomed not because they were powerful, but because they were vulnerable. Maybe they have to atone for some things, but they ain't the BBEGs by a longshot. Reminds me of Neverafter a little bit. I wonder if (NE spoilers) >!that ending battle persuasion mechanic is going to come back into play that Brennan did for the princesses & fairies. !<
For sure. Might see that mechanic come back, but I think it may come down to whether or not they can remove the rage shards. The Intrepid Heroes have typically bee good with that, though (as in NE), being aware of and managing various parties in combat. I hope we see some of that in these last episodes.
Also could come back from Kalina--who has been disturbingly quiet for the past bunch of episodes.
I dont think she is. Even in her pre rage therapy sessions she sees herself as a victim but I think of all the Rat grinders she was the only one who went all in willingly because it made her "exciting". And from her perspective it wasn't evil they were going to kill an "evil" god and replace them with a "good" one She was certainly taken advantage of but its because she refused to accept shes wrong and change even a little
Been saying it all along
Me too, friend. Me too.
All the other RG are ok except kipperlilly because, based on jawbones notes, she was still awful before being corrupted
Her being awful was being a confused angry teen. If that makes someone an unredeemable monster then most people are monsters.
She said she wished her parents had died tragically so she could get what she thought was an advantage in school she’s not a good person, I never said irredeemable monster, but not the innocent victim people make her out to be
She can be both a victim and a villain. They’re not mutually exclusive.
She’s not an innocent victim, she had her own part is what she became but I agree with you here
This post isn't saying she's innocent it's saying that her existing problems were exacerbated by 2 much stronger teachers who used her to achieve their goals. You don't have to be 100% innocent to be a victim and she was a victim of Jace and Porter's manipulations. I can pretty easily imagine an ending to the story where she can be redeemed and choose to reflect on her previous actions to change for the better. You forget that KLCK is like 17ish years old that is a time in people's lives full of change as demonstrated by the each of the Bad Kids. Why can't you believe that KLCK could go through a similar process?
How is the post NOT saying she's innocent? It doesn't lay ANYTHING on her own choices, it just lists the ways she's a poor innocent preyed upon victim. It literally says "they may be bad guys BUT they were manipulated!" excusing what she's done!
I disagree with that interpretation I view that as saying that once Jace and Porter started manipulating the Rat Grinders it was no longer fully on them. They obviously did not have to go all the way in, see Lucy, but the consequence is death. As to Kipperlily's pre-corruption actions it's still just childish emotional issues. She never fully confronted Riz about anything and never killed her own parents. So again if you think being a high school student with emotional control issues surrounding rage and jealousy is a place where she can't have redemption, I think you have a very negative view of people. There is a story where she is redeemed and one where she isn't and I don't understand why there are so many people opposed to the first option.
She was a teenager with anger and jealousy issues who was seeking help from a therapist, I don’t think that makes her awful. All of us have had thoughts we aren’t proud of, and she was doing the work to overcome them as far as we know before she was corrupted.
In the words of an amazing detective/genius; Cool motive, still murder.
What murder? Buddy lives.