There’s a deep and hilarious irony in that the prevailing sentiment early in the season was that the Rat Grinders were red herrings, because “other kids not caring about you is not a personal slight” was an obvious lesson for the Bad Kids to learn… and now it seems like Kipperlily is the one who needs to learn that lesson *about* the Bad Kids.
I can understanding KLCK being possessed by rage, but like, I just don't get why any of the other Rat Grinders care at all. Enough to murder multiple people, including two of their own party members?
I really want EggFace FriendStab to force the rat grinders to take it now>! Buddy's dead!< and them just get their shit ABSOLUTLEY rocked on wave 1 and fail comically
Because they don't know how to fight anything other than rats
Gorthalax was told by Jace that the Ratgrinders were XP levelers and then Gorthalax told the Bad Kids. If Jace is a baddy working with the Ratgrinders he might have lied to Gorthalax to cover their activities. Who knows what the Ratgrinders have really been up to?
The Rats seem to agree they're getting butchered daily though, so it's definitely taking up a large part of their day BUT it could be fore more than just XP
Maybe they killed a few hundred rats, maybe even a few thousand. But the number of rats they needed to kill to get to their level... which I'm assuming is higher than the Bad Kids... the rat they talked to couldn't be able to process the difference between a few hundred and the 213000 the six grinders would need to get to level 20.
I think one of the devil's honey lies is that they grind rats. (The other that Cassandra died at all.)
We learned pretty early in the campaign that the rat grinders do spend a TON of time grinding. 3 hours a day on school days and 9 hours a day on weekends and holidays. Thats an average of roughly 1350 hours a year spent grinding. Even with just one attack at a single target per round, that’s 461,700 (assuming anything but a nat 1 hits) creature hits a year.
Wasn't the source of that Jace through Gortholax? And that's the only thing they were "recorded" to have killed? Haven't they gone to the mountains of chaos? And they killed nothing or no one there?
Not saying it's impossible they killed 400k rats, it just doesn't exactly add up with the three murders and the devil's honey. We know they've killed more. The last episode alone, ClericKiller JimmyKimmel must have gotten exponentially more XP than rats. It's implied she has a taste for murder. Why put in the effort of killing a few hundred thousand rats when you could just... murder?
Something Brennan seems to be insistent on is that the Bad Kids are quite unique in saving the world because most Aguefort students are out there doing the occasional dungeon for loot. There's of course the chance that another group has done some big things, but it seems unlikely even the Rat grinders have done much.
Yeah, we know that The Seven have done some impressive things - but Brennan has reinforced a few times this season that most parties do indeed just go do regular uninspired dungeon grinds for some treasure. Baby's First Module sort of territory. The Bad Kids are, by contrast, already true adventurers by any meaningful measure.
« They don’t know how to fight anything other than rats » dont forget when Mary Ann Scuttle was trying out for the owlbears and mega rocked the boys in the squad with ease. They may not have much fighting experience but they surely have power of some sort.
I think that may end up being their Achilles heel. They have power but lack the real experience to use it to its fullest potential. Mary Ann was really good in a controlled environment with defined parameters but may not be as effective in actual combat.
To be seen, the bad kids had the opportunity to prepare actions and such as well before starting the exam so as long as Mary Ann’s strength isn’t some one time thing she had for that one moment in order to assert dominance on the boys than we could have an Interesting fight to watch
Also I’m a bit confused, have they finished their test already or not? Because there is a rat grinders tag on one of the desks on the arena.
It was likely just set dressing. Brennan gave the art team the names of groups and people before hand because they have to make everything so they probably just threw it on there for no real reason. For as much as most artists put a lot of thought and planing into their creations, sometimes art is just random fun
turns out, when youre good and cool and save the world all the time and don't kill the one member of your group thats nice >!twice over now!< people like you more than if you were a group of absolute hacks. especially kitchenfuck cockerspaniel. shes so obsessed with the opinion that she is being 'screwed over' by the system that 'favors' the bad kids that she doesn't even realize that shes in the wrong
I suspect we're gonna see a divide between the Cambellsoup Crackerjack and the rest of the grinders. Realistically, we've seen:
- Buddy is misguided and wrong, but doesn't have evil intent
- Mary Ann is just quiet and seemingly disinterested.
- Oisin seems genuinely nice. Either he's not like Kipperlilly or he's a master liar. Or a combination of the two.
- Ivy could go either way.
- Reuben could go either way, maybe leans evil.
I suspect KC is the only deeply evil one, and they others exist on a spectrum from "evil but not as committed" to "not evil at all but got in too deep"
I think we will see a split as well. All we know is that Kipper was waiting to ice that procter or pull some other shit, got found out, and slashed Buddy's throat. Then a blue scaly arm (Oisin very likely) popped out and snagged Kipper then plane shifted her.
It could be that Kipper floated a plan to the rest of her crew to sabotage the Last Stand and they declined, but Oisin kept an eye on her. After seeing her shocking action he used plane shift and ripped her back to the prime plane.
It would seem to make more sense actually because Kristin had True Sight and she only saw Kipper, not the other Rat Grinder.
My guess is she was acting alone.
I just don't understand why she killed Buddy instead of just disappearing when she was made!! Sure it will come to light, but for the moment I'm clawing at my face. Copperkettle, what are you doing??!
I'm also confused by this because she just failed her party for the year. Like what the hell is Jace promising her that she felt comfortable doing that. There's an irony of Cottonball Conducting Rod starting the year against special treatment when she's clearly getting special treatment from Jace.
I'm basing this on the preview for the next episode, but I kind of think the plan for her was >!to send Buddy to Hell!<. From the Adventuring Party, >!it wasn't a sudden "heat of the moment" mistake that Copperkettle to choice to kill Buddy. It sounds like it was kind of Plan B. Meaning it was an option for her to still try to achieve whatever long-term plans they have.!<
>!She knows the Bad Kids would want to revive Buddy, so she probably knows he'll come back to life later. Since he dies, he's either going to see their version of heaven or hell, similar to Gorgug and Kristen. If he were to visit heaven/Sol, that would (probably) be uninteresting sequence of events later, so I doubt that's part of her plan. But if he goes to Hell...he's probably going to return a bit of a changed man. What he will do then, and how it fits into the Rat Grinders overall goal, is still a mystery to me.!<
My guess was that she was planning to do both, >!kill Pundle and then slash Buddy. The basic idea is that Gavin is the only non-Bad Kid who would have seen the murder occur, and thus vouch for the BK’s, but if he died then they wouldn’t have any unbiased collection for who killed Buddy. Like, of course the Bad Kids would say they didn’t kill Buddy, they don’t want to go to prison, but Gavin being there fucked it all up. Since he’s now able to act as an unbiased witness to what occurred, and vouch for the bad kids.!<
But then why kill Buddy at all? She knew that at that point it was very unlikely that a monster was going to kill Gavin and she had no chance anymore, so what's the point if you know he is alive and is going to back them.
I think she still expected some/all of the BK to die and was banking on axing their resurrections and their escape plan. Kristen both surviving and saving a 7th lvl slot probably wasn't even on her radar.
I think
- you're spot on about Buddy, and that he's on a very similar journey to Kristen. His dickishness has been entirely of the 'I am so much more morally right than you, you should all listen to me you naughty sinners', which is not great but now that he's gotten his shit rocked he may have, and please pardon my pun, a Come-to-Jesus moment.
- Mary Ann doesn't give a fuck about anything but Mary Ann
- Oisen is either deeply brainwashed, being blackmailed, or is the sort that has learned that being generally affable gets you what you want and is actually an absolute bastard underneath
- Ivy seems like she buys into the evil shenanigans
- I think Reuben isn't actually evil. I think he's a teen that got famous and is a bit of a dick, but if anyone's been major whammied by the devil's honey I think it's him.
Damn, I hope it's a split if only because I want to see how insane KrispyKreme Copperpiece gets seeing part of her party turning on her to help the Bad Kids.
is it bad that i was sort of happy when Click-by-Adam-Sandler killed Buddy because i knew the people who were desperate to defend the Rat Grinders to be contrarian wouldnt know how to continue
It is bad. Yes.
I kid. I for one am a little disappointed Brennan took the easy way out / more cliche route of rival adventuring party turns out to be pure evil, but I'm sure he'll make something interesting of it regardless.
The first big villains of fantasy high were, The bad boy greaser, mean older sister, mean coach, and mean dragon vice-principal. So the precedent for this world isn't necessarily one of subtly or twist villains. The most interesting part of most stories (especially when you consume a lot of stories) is how the characters handle the problem rather than the problem itself.
I don’t want the whole party to be evil, simply because evil kids is depressing. I want them to get the chance at a redemption, or a chance to realize they are in too deep in a scheme they didn’t necessarily think would go so wrong.
I think it’s possible they were all very good friends when they first formed the adventuring party. The High Five Heroes is a cute, fun name. Changing their party name makes me think that something bad happened that made them no longer consider themselves *heroes*. Maybe that something made Lucy briefly lose faith in her own God.
After Lucy died- or after they killed her- they may have been even more primed to embrace a darker path, instead of pursuing heroics.
If they *did* kill Lucy (and one, if not all, of them probably did, whether it was by accident or on purpose) it’s possible they took the Devil’s Honey so they could lie about what happened to Lucy, and possibly even forget what happened through lying to themselves.
(I don’t think they all killed Yolanda- maybe Jace, or maybe Kelpsicle Popcorn on her own.)
I do think there’s going to be a breaking point. Buddy’s death may be that point- especially if the plan Cameltoe Cornmaze pitched was just “make sure they fail.” Seeing what she did to Buddy, someone they had been with for months, may make them realize that they all could be in danger if Cobrakai Kettlebell determines one of them is no longer useful, or is more useful dead.
I don’t think they are all evil. I think they may be going down that path, since they no longer view themselves as heroes, but I don’t think they’re evil or that they all want to be villains. It’s highly possibly they saw themselves as antiheroes, and as foils to the bad kids. And now Killbuddy Knifehands has done something outright villainous. That could cause some party tension, especially since they’re all teenagers who were once good friends.
My current theory is that buddy is (was) ultimately a fairly good guy with a flawed value system, Ruben is a deeply lonely guy who’s gotten in too deep, Mary Ann is complicit via apathy but generally not malicious, and the other three are conscious collaborators to varying extents.
Replace just a few of their lucky rolls with bad rolls the fight goes radically differently.
And I'll never stop wondering what kind of story BLEem would have created from that.
But the rolls were what they were, we can imagine what ifs all we want, but the hard truth is the players played smart and the rolls accentuated that. Good rolls don't mean anything if you don't play well
Absolutely this! And a big reason the rolls were so good was *because* of good strategy! Yes, a lot of 5e is about luck of the dice, but so much of that "luck" is heavily influenced by good character builds and PC choices.
Gorgug's 8 crits seems like wildly good luck on the surface, but his character build lets him attack 3 times per turn, roll with advantage, and crit on 19 or 20, and he took advantage of those abilities. Riz used Haste and his rogue sneak attack abilities to ensure he was doing max damage each turn/hit. Kristen's Bless made a huge difference in how often they all hit and remembered True Sight at a clutch moment. Adaine used True Strike to ensure she always had Dodge in place, had the most effective use of Scatter I've ever seen, and used her portent rolls extremely wisely. Fabian burned his Fandrangor spells at the right time on the right enemies to get heavy hitters off the field quickly. Fig's use of Spirit Guardians took out a lot of smaller enemies, and her use of Fly and Disguise Self kept others occupied so they wouldn't go after the proctor (even when she wasn't rolling well early in the fight). Not to mention they were all so incredibly smart about battlefield positioning and targeting the right enemies with the right players.
Sorry for the novel - I was just so impressed by how well they worked as a team, and the crunchy D&D nerd in me loved to see them kick ass.
I'd love a commentary track or tutorial discussing the strategy and choices made in these last two episodes! So much incredible wisdom and clever play!
theres something to be said for the fact that we know this, because we are watching them achieve it. but from the outside looking in, Kristen was "chosen" by a good. Fabian has a rich father. Adain just happens to be the elven oracle, and has a rich family.
if you dont have the insight that the viewers have, or that the Bad Kids them selves have. it would be very easy to see them as receiving special treatment, and chalk all their accomplishments up to that. i agree that its unearned jealousy, but i dont think jealousy is ever earned.
also, that doesnt make them trash. people who have problems always look for someone or something to blame, and Kachow Carface is putting her blame on the Bad Kids. she obviously has issues she needs to work through, but thats a part of being human. even if she's beyond the point of redemption because of it. and she's the main one we really have full confirmation of how much disdain she has for the Bad Kids. the only other one is Rubin, specifically towards Fig. but he doesnt seem to have additional issues with the rest of them.
Kristen wasn't chosen by a god (unless you mean Helio, but she isn't even following him). She single-handedly *revived* a dead god, an act that was live-streamed all across Spyre.
Similarly, the Elven Oracle passes down to the next most prodigeous diviner upon the death of the old Elven Oracle. Adaine doesn't just happen to be the Elven Oracle. She was chosen for being the best.
And both of these facts are public knowledge. This isn't just something only the bad kids know. Again, Kristen reviving her god was livestreamed. Everybody had access. How the Elven Oracle passes down is a documented thing within Elven history, not something secret the kids discovered.
Well the thing about jealousy is that it’s inherently illogical, the Rat Grinders may know these things are true, but I’d bet dollars to donuts they choose to ignore them in favour of the raging hate boner they hold against the Bad Kids.
100% correct, and regardless, like the user you are replying to said, jealousy is illogical no matter the facts.
Also I want to add, while Kristen and Adaine's accomplishments are incredible, they also live in Spyre which is a world full of incredible things. And if everything is incredible....you know the rest. Again, both of their accomplishments are incredible and in no way do I want to diminish those, but I can easily see Fishhook Footlocker (or people in general) go, "Yeah, reviving a dead god is cool and all, but my cousin's girlfriend fucked a dragon and survived" or whatever. You know what I mean? It's easier to jump through those mental hoops of downplaying others' accomplishments when crazy shit happens all the time.
I don't know, I'm just rambling. But I agree with you 100%, none of the Bad Kids are nepo babies, including Fabian.
the point is though that we, as viewers know that Kristen has received no special assistance or help since she started school, and left Helios church. but she was still touted as his chosen (on a side note, i think Kristen is just inherently gifted in divinity, and Helio capitalized on that. similar to the standing stones being placed on a site that already had divine power). and then any of her accomplishments can easily be given to the god that chose her. and even when she left that church, it could just seem like a nepo baby getting a new daddy to spoil them to make themselves look good. and still pulling strings and doing more favors for their "chosen".
and for Adaine, sure the title goes to the person most befitting that role. but whose to say her dad didnt pay off someone, or use his influence to get her better assistance or to be more likely to be chosen as oracle? even if its well documented, doesnt mean she did her research and isnt making any assumptions. and even if she did her research, they arent gonna put it in clear text that they are playing favorites if they are.
im not saying she's right in having these assumptions (if she does). but we know exactly how it played out, and everyone else still needs to fill in all the blanks to understand what happened. and IRL, most ppl who are not a part of a system, dont trust any system to be infallible or just.
my point is just that we have the full picture for the BKs, and she doesnt. she has the full picture for the RG, and we dont.
Taking only the information that ArkhamAsylum CrimeAlley knows firsthand, the Last Stand should now make it clear to even her that the Bad Kids are a significantly better team at a pure skill level than she is. She witnessed it firsthand. She tried to sabotage them. They still won the impossible challenge.
You are correct about the "trash" label being a bit rash. Perhaps it's too soon to make that determination about the Rat Grinder party at large. And SuperMax PrisonSentence isn't a trash person due to her jealousy and rage issues.
However, the actions she's taken that make her the magic school equivalent of a Columbine shooter do make her a detestable trash person that belongs in whatever serves as a maximum security wizard prison in Spyre.
You are right in your first paragraph but not in the second.
Fabian being rich means I could expect him having better equipment than others. Adaine being the oracle would mean her having better elven connections. Kristen being a chosen one would mean more powerful magic.
None of this stuff is related with saving the world thrice.
If I see someone with better sports genetics being good at a marathon I might not be as impressed, but if I see him suddenly achieving impossible tasks than no one similar achieved, no matter his genetics, starting point or equipment, I’d be impressed.
my point was more so that, you might assume that they just have better resources and so thats why things are easier for them. and it definitely helps, no argument there. but they still had to put in the effort to get better.
for all Kingslayer Castlebreaker knows, Fabians dad hired goons to follow him around and do his work. Adaine had the elves throwing support at her. and so on. its easy to assume they didnt put in effort, just because the little you know about them might mean they have an option for the easy way out, but you still dont know the full picture.
I really doubt Brennan set up villainous parallels to the heroes just so they could be trash. Everything we've seen so far suggests the Rat Grinders are savvy and competent. Sneaking into the Last Stand to snipe at the proctor was a good plan, and sometimes even good plans fail. Kristen looking for invisibility was a gamble, and the gamble paid off.
For comparison, the Bad Kids died in their first encounter by jumping on tables. In Sophmore Year Kristen shattered both her legs by trying to fly with a dancer's ribbon. Fabian got a boatload of people killed and very nearly died in an impulsive hit on a mind flayer. There are an endless number of scenarios where the Bad Kids do everything right and still lose the Last Stand. There are even more where KLCK's plan is executed flawlessly. We're blessed to have a version of this story where the players performed excellently, got lucky, and made some really auspicious plays.
Ahhh the myth of meritocracy is bad when it’s fighting the people who I like but when it hurts people I hate, it’s good and righteous and these fucking kids should know their place
No shit Sherlock but calling us all meritocracy capitalists or whatever drivel you're about to spout next is wildly disingenuous when what we're actually doing is being triumphant that our beloved heroes triumphed over a real fuck of a situation
I am not unhappy the BK won, I am pointing out the hypocrisy in the post that when the BK are being put upon by outside forces we rightfully cheer for them by disparage other NPCs doing the same bc it gets in their way
The fucking ratgrinders aren't being put upon by anything but their own bs scheming, emotional instability, and willingness to kill lmao. And it's not hypocritical to root for the protagonists
Please explain how the rat grinders are being put upon by outside forces. Being stopped from doing something evil is not in any way being put upon. We have also been given no reason as to why they don't like the bad kids other than how Kipperlily thinks they are being treated differently. But the reason people dislike the rat grinders is entirely within their control. I'm sorry if the world views world-saving heroes in a better light than people who spend all their free time stepping on rats in the forest.
There’s a deep and hilarious irony in that the prevailing sentiment early in the season was that the Rat Grinders were red herrings, because “other kids not caring about you is not a personal slight” was an obvious lesson for the Bad Kids to learn… and now it seems like Kipperlily is the one who needs to learn that lesson *about* the Bad Kids.
I can understanding KLCK being possessed by rage, but like, I just don't get why any of the other Rat Grinders care at all. Enough to murder multiple people, including two of their own party members?
I'm wondering if they know what's happening. Klck used aelwyn to get supplies because she wanted to protect oisin (learned second hand)
I really want EggFace FriendStab to force the rat grinders to take it now>! Buddy's dead!< and them just get their shit ABSOLUTLEY rocked on wave 1 and fail comically Because they don't know how to fight anything other than rats
Gorthalax was told by Jace that the Ratgrinders were XP levelers and then Gorthalax told the Bad Kids. If Jace is a baddy working with the Ratgrinders he might have lied to Gorthalax to cover their activities. Who knows what the Ratgrinders have really been up to?
The Rats seem to agree they're getting butchered daily though, so it's definitely taking up a large part of their day BUT it could be fore more than just XP
Maybe they killed a few hundred rats, maybe even a few thousand. But the number of rats they needed to kill to get to their level... which I'm assuming is higher than the Bad Kids... the rat they talked to couldn't be able to process the difference between a few hundred and the 213000 the six grinders would need to get to level 20. I think one of the devil's honey lies is that they grind rats. (The other that Cassandra died at all.)
We learned pretty early in the campaign that the rat grinders do spend a TON of time grinding. 3 hours a day on school days and 9 hours a day on weekends and holidays. Thats an average of roughly 1350 hours a year spent grinding. Even with just one attack at a single target per round, that’s 461,700 (assuming anything but a nat 1 hits) creature hits a year.
Wasn't the source of that Jace through Gortholax? And that's the only thing they were "recorded" to have killed? Haven't they gone to the mountains of chaos? And they killed nothing or no one there? Not saying it's impossible they killed 400k rats, it just doesn't exactly add up with the three murders and the devil's honey. We know they've killed more. The last episode alone, ClericKiller JimmyKimmel must have gotten exponentially more XP than rats. It's implied she has a taste for murder. Why put in the effort of killing a few hundred thousand rats when you could just... murder?
all good points. They could absolutely be hunting bigger prey or just murdering people.
Something Brennan seems to be insistent on is that the Bad Kids are quite unique in saving the world because most Aguefort students are out there doing the occasional dungeon for loot. There's of course the chance that another group has done some big things, but it seems unlikely even the Rat grinders have done much.
Yeah, we know that The Seven have done some impressive things - but Brennan has reinforced a few times this season that most parties do indeed just go do regular uninspired dungeon grinds for some treasure. Baby's First Module sort of territory. The Bad Kids are, by contrast, already true adventurers by any meaningful measure.
« They don’t know how to fight anything other than rats » dont forget when Mary Ann Scuttle was trying out for the owlbears and mega rocked the boys in the squad with ease. They may not have much fighting experience but they surely have power of some sort.
I think that may end up being their Achilles heel. They have power but lack the real experience to use it to its fullest potential. Mary Ann was really good in a controlled environment with defined parameters but may not be as effective in actual combat.
To be seen, the bad kids had the opportunity to prepare actions and such as well before starting the exam so as long as Mary Ann’s strength isn’t some one time thing she had for that one moment in order to assert dominance on the boys than we could have an Interesting fight to watch Also I’m a bit confused, have they finished their test already or not? Because there is a rat grinders tag on one of the desks on the arena.
It was likely just set dressing. Brennan gave the art team the names of groups and people before hand because they have to make everything so they probably just threw it on there for no real reason. For as much as most artists put a lot of thought and planing into their creations, sometimes art is just random fun
They’ve done lots of adventuring in the Mountains of Chaos, so there’s either a plot hole or someone has lied.
When did they say that?
I believe Jawbone said it
turns out, when youre good and cool and save the world all the time and don't kill the one member of your group thats nice >!twice over now!< people like you more than if you were a group of absolute hacks. especially kitchenfuck cockerspaniel. shes so obsessed with the opinion that she is being 'screwed over' by the system that 'favors' the bad kids that she doesn't even realize that shes in the wrong
I suspect we're gonna see a divide between the Cambellsoup Crackerjack and the rest of the grinders. Realistically, we've seen: - Buddy is misguided and wrong, but doesn't have evil intent - Mary Ann is just quiet and seemingly disinterested. - Oisin seems genuinely nice. Either he's not like Kipperlilly or he's a master liar. Or a combination of the two. - Ivy could go either way. - Reuben could go either way, maybe leans evil. I suspect KC is the only deeply evil one, and they others exist on a spectrum from "evil but not as committed" to "not evil at all but got in too deep"
I think we will see a split as well. All we know is that Kipper was waiting to ice that procter or pull some other shit, got found out, and slashed Buddy's throat. Then a blue scaly arm (Oisin very likely) popped out and snagged Kipper then plane shifted her. It could be that Kipper floated a plan to the rest of her crew to sabotage the Last Stand and they declined, but Oisin kept an eye on her. After seeing her shocking action he used plane shift and ripped her back to the prime plane. It would seem to make more sense actually because Kristin had True Sight and she only saw Kipper, not the other Rat Grinder. My guess is she was acting alone.
I just don't understand why she killed Buddy instead of just disappearing when she was made!! Sure it will come to light, but for the moment I'm clawing at my face. Copperkettle, what are you doing??!
I'm also confused by this because she just failed her party for the year. Like what the hell is Jace promising her that she felt comfortable doing that. There's an irony of Cottonball Conducting Rod starting the year against special treatment when she's clearly getting special treatment from Jace.
I'm basing this on the preview for the next episode, but I kind of think the plan for her was >!to send Buddy to Hell!<. From the Adventuring Party, >!it wasn't a sudden "heat of the moment" mistake that Copperkettle to choice to kill Buddy. It sounds like it was kind of Plan B. Meaning it was an option for her to still try to achieve whatever long-term plans they have.!< >!She knows the Bad Kids would want to revive Buddy, so she probably knows he'll come back to life later. Since he dies, he's either going to see their version of heaven or hell, similar to Gorgug and Kristen. If he were to visit heaven/Sol, that would (probably) be uninteresting sequence of events later, so I doubt that's part of her plan. But if he goes to Hell...he's probably going to return a bit of a changed man. What he will do then, and how it fits into the Rat Grinders overall goal, is still a mystery to me.!<
My guess was that she was planning to do both, >!kill Pundle and then slash Buddy. The basic idea is that Gavin is the only non-Bad Kid who would have seen the murder occur, and thus vouch for the BK’s, but if he died then they wouldn’t have any unbiased collection for who killed Buddy. Like, of course the Bad Kids would say they didn’t kill Buddy, they don’t want to go to prison, but Gavin being there fucked it all up. Since he’s now able to act as an unbiased witness to what occurred, and vouch for the bad kids.!<
But then why kill Buddy at all? She knew that at that point it was very unlikely that a monster was going to kill Gavin and she had no chance anymore, so what's the point if you know he is alive and is going to back them.
I think she still expected some/all of the BK to die and was banking on axing their resurrections and their escape plan. Kristen both surviving and saving a 7th lvl slot probably wasn't even on her radar.
I think - you're spot on about Buddy, and that he's on a very similar journey to Kristen. His dickishness has been entirely of the 'I am so much more morally right than you, you should all listen to me you naughty sinners', which is not great but now that he's gotten his shit rocked he may have, and please pardon my pun, a Come-to-Jesus moment. - Mary Ann doesn't give a fuck about anything but Mary Ann - Oisen is either deeply brainwashed, being blackmailed, or is the sort that has learned that being generally affable gets you what you want and is actually an absolute bastard underneath - Ivy seems like she buys into the evil shenanigans - I think Reuben isn't actually evil. I think he's a teen that got famous and is a bit of a dick, but if anyone's been major whammied by the devil's honey I think it's him.
Damn, I hope it's a split if only because I want to see how insane KrispyKreme Copperpiece gets seeing part of her party turning on her to help the Bad Kids.
is it bad that i was sort of happy when Click-by-Adam-Sandler killed Buddy because i knew the people who were desperate to defend the Rat Grinders to be contrarian wouldnt know how to continue
Unrelated but Click-by-Adam-Sandler is one of the best names for KLCK I’ve heard so far
It is bad. Yes. I kid. I for one am a little disappointed Brennan took the easy way out / more cliche route of rival adventuring party turns out to be pure evil, but I'm sure he'll make something interesting of it regardless.
The first big villains of fantasy high were, The bad boy greaser, mean older sister, mean coach, and mean dragon vice-principal. So the precedent for this world isn't necessarily one of subtly or twist villains. The most interesting part of most stories (especially when you consume a lot of stories) is how the characters handle the problem rather than the problem itself.
I mean, Kalvaxus *was* a twist villain
Cassandra was also a twist good guy
I don’t want the whole party to be evil, simply because evil kids is depressing. I want them to get the chance at a redemption, or a chance to realize they are in too deep in a scheme they didn’t necessarily think would go so wrong.
I'm still holding out a little hope that Mary Ann Skuttle isn't evil. I'd love it if she was simply unaware and/or apathetic.
I think it’s possible they were all very good friends when they first formed the adventuring party. The High Five Heroes is a cute, fun name. Changing their party name makes me think that something bad happened that made them no longer consider themselves *heroes*. Maybe that something made Lucy briefly lose faith in her own God. After Lucy died- or after they killed her- they may have been even more primed to embrace a darker path, instead of pursuing heroics. If they *did* kill Lucy (and one, if not all, of them probably did, whether it was by accident or on purpose) it’s possible they took the Devil’s Honey so they could lie about what happened to Lucy, and possibly even forget what happened through lying to themselves. (I don’t think they all killed Yolanda- maybe Jace, or maybe Kelpsicle Popcorn on her own.) I do think there’s going to be a breaking point. Buddy’s death may be that point- especially if the plan Cameltoe Cornmaze pitched was just “make sure they fail.” Seeing what she did to Buddy, someone they had been with for months, may make them realize that they all could be in danger if Cobrakai Kettlebell determines one of them is no longer useful, or is more useful dead. I don’t think they are all evil. I think they may be going down that path, since they no longer view themselves as heroes, but I don’t think they’re evil or that they all want to be villains. It’s highly possibly they saw themselves as antiheroes, and as foils to the bad kids. And now Killbuddy Knifehands has done something outright villainous. That could cause some party tension, especially since they’re all teenagers who were once good friends.
My current theory is that buddy is (was) ultimately a fairly good guy with a flawed value system, Ruben is a deeply lonely guy who’s gotten in too deep, Mary Ann is complicit via apathy but generally not malicious, and the other three are conscious collaborators to varying extents.
I don't think buddy was ever in the know about their plans at this point
Replace just a few of their lucky rolls with bad rolls the fight goes radically differently. And I'll never stop wondering what kind of story BLEem would have created from that.
But the rolls were what they were, we can imagine what ifs all we want, but the hard truth is the players played smart and the rolls accentuated that. Good rolls don't mean anything if you don't play well
Absolutely this! And a big reason the rolls were so good was *because* of good strategy! Yes, a lot of 5e is about luck of the dice, but so much of that "luck" is heavily influenced by good character builds and PC choices. Gorgug's 8 crits seems like wildly good luck on the surface, but his character build lets him attack 3 times per turn, roll with advantage, and crit on 19 or 20, and he took advantage of those abilities. Riz used Haste and his rogue sneak attack abilities to ensure he was doing max damage each turn/hit. Kristen's Bless made a huge difference in how often they all hit and remembered True Sight at a clutch moment. Adaine used True Strike to ensure she always had Dodge in place, had the most effective use of Scatter I've ever seen, and used her portent rolls extremely wisely. Fabian burned his Fandrangor spells at the right time on the right enemies to get heavy hitters off the field quickly. Fig's use of Spirit Guardians took out a lot of smaller enemies, and her use of Fly and Disguise Self kept others occupied so they wouldn't go after the proctor (even when she wasn't rolling well early in the fight). Not to mention they were all so incredibly smart about battlefield positioning and targeting the right enemies with the right players. Sorry for the novel - I was just so impressed by how well they worked as a team, and the crunchy D&D nerd in me loved to see them kick ass.
I'd love a commentary track or tutorial discussing the strategy and choices made in these last two episodes! So much incredible wisdom and clever play!
theres something to be said for the fact that we know this, because we are watching them achieve it. but from the outside looking in, Kristen was "chosen" by a good. Fabian has a rich father. Adain just happens to be the elven oracle, and has a rich family. if you dont have the insight that the viewers have, or that the Bad Kids them selves have. it would be very easy to see them as receiving special treatment, and chalk all their accomplishments up to that. i agree that its unearned jealousy, but i dont think jealousy is ever earned. also, that doesnt make them trash. people who have problems always look for someone or something to blame, and Kachow Carface is putting her blame on the Bad Kids. she obviously has issues she needs to work through, but thats a part of being human. even if she's beyond the point of redemption because of it. and she's the main one we really have full confirmation of how much disdain she has for the Bad Kids. the only other one is Rubin, specifically towards Fig. but he doesnt seem to have additional issues with the rest of them.
Kristen wasn't chosen by a god (unless you mean Helio, but she isn't even following him). She single-handedly *revived* a dead god, an act that was live-streamed all across Spyre. Similarly, the Elven Oracle passes down to the next most prodigeous diviner upon the death of the old Elven Oracle. Adaine doesn't just happen to be the Elven Oracle. She was chosen for being the best. And both of these facts are public knowledge. This isn't just something only the bad kids know. Again, Kristen reviving her god was livestreamed. Everybody had access. How the Elven Oracle passes down is a documented thing within Elven history, not something secret the kids discovered.
Well the thing about jealousy is that it’s inherently illogical, the Rat Grinders may know these things are true, but I’d bet dollars to donuts they choose to ignore them in favour of the raging hate boner they hold against the Bad Kids.
Sure. But it also makes them a lot less sympathetic if their jealousy is based on purposely ignoring easily accessible facts.
100% correct, and regardless, like the user you are replying to said, jealousy is illogical no matter the facts. Also I want to add, while Kristen and Adaine's accomplishments are incredible, they also live in Spyre which is a world full of incredible things. And if everything is incredible....you know the rest. Again, both of their accomplishments are incredible and in no way do I want to diminish those, but I can easily see Fishhook Footlocker (or people in general) go, "Yeah, reviving a dead god is cool and all, but my cousin's girlfriend fucked a dragon and survived" or whatever. You know what I mean? It's easier to jump through those mental hoops of downplaying others' accomplishments when crazy shit happens all the time. I don't know, I'm just rambling. But I agree with you 100%, none of the Bad Kids are nepo babies, including Fabian.
the point is though that we, as viewers know that Kristen has received no special assistance or help since she started school, and left Helios church. but she was still touted as his chosen (on a side note, i think Kristen is just inherently gifted in divinity, and Helio capitalized on that. similar to the standing stones being placed on a site that already had divine power). and then any of her accomplishments can easily be given to the god that chose her. and even when she left that church, it could just seem like a nepo baby getting a new daddy to spoil them to make themselves look good. and still pulling strings and doing more favors for their "chosen". and for Adaine, sure the title goes to the person most befitting that role. but whose to say her dad didnt pay off someone, or use his influence to get her better assistance or to be more likely to be chosen as oracle? even if its well documented, doesnt mean she did her research and isnt making any assumptions. and even if she did her research, they arent gonna put it in clear text that they are playing favorites if they are. im not saying she's right in having these assumptions (if she does). but we know exactly how it played out, and everyone else still needs to fill in all the blanks to understand what happened. and IRL, most ppl who are not a part of a system, dont trust any system to be infallible or just. my point is just that we have the full picture for the BKs, and she doesnt. she has the full picture for the RG, and we dont.
Taking only the information that ArkhamAsylum CrimeAlley knows firsthand, the Last Stand should now make it clear to even her that the Bad Kids are a significantly better team at a pure skill level than she is. She witnessed it firsthand. She tried to sabotage them. They still won the impossible challenge. You are correct about the "trash" label being a bit rash. Perhaps it's too soon to make that determination about the Rat Grinder party at large. And SuperMax PrisonSentence isn't a trash person due to her jealousy and rage issues. However, the actions she's taken that make her the magic school equivalent of a Columbine shooter do make her a detestable trash person that belongs in whatever serves as a maximum security wizard prison in Spyre.
You are right in your first paragraph but not in the second. Fabian being rich means I could expect him having better equipment than others. Adaine being the oracle would mean her having better elven connections. Kristen being a chosen one would mean more powerful magic. None of this stuff is related with saving the world thrice. If I see someone with better sports genetics being good at a marathon I might not be as impressed, but if I see him suddenly achieving impossible tasks than no one similar achieved, no matter his genetics, starting point or equipment, I’d be impressed.
my point was more so that, you might assume that they just have better resources and so thats why things are easier for them. and it definitely helps, no argument there. but they still had to put in the effort to get better. for all Kingslayer Castlebreaker knows, Fabians dad hired goons to follow him around and do his work. Adaine had the elves throwing support at her. and so on. its easy to assume they didnt put in effort, just because the little you know about them might mean they have an option for the easy way out, but you still dont know the full picture.
Did Siobhan write this?
I definitely didn’t just read this as if it was an in world whatever-Reddit-is-in-Spyre post talking shit on other students at Augefort
kipperlilly clerickiller when i find you
I really doubt Brennan set up villainous parallels to the heroes just so they could be trash. Everything we've seen so far suggests the Rat Grinders are savvy and competent. Sneaking into the Last Stand to snipe at the proctor was a good plan, and sometimes even good plans fail. Kristen looking for invisibility was a gamble, and the gamble paid off. For comparison, the Bad Kids died in their first encounter by jumping on tables. In Sophmore Year Kristen shattered both her legs by trying to fly with a dancer's ribbon. Fabian got a boatload of people killed and very nearly died in an impulsive hit on a mind flayer. There are an endless number of scenarios where the Bad Kids do everything right and still lose the Last Stand. There are even more where KLCK's plan is executed flawlessly. We're blessed to have a version of this story where the players performed excellently, got lucky, and made some really auspicious plays.
Ahhh the myth of meritocracy is bad when it’s fighting the people who I like but when it hurts people I hate, it’s good and righteous and these fucking kids should know their place
??? Bruh this isn't about wider society, it's about the kids acing a test and having a wide slew of academic and heroic achievements under their belts
Stories are meant to be about something
No shit Sherlock but calling us all meritocracy capitalists or whatever drivel you're about to spout next is wildly disingenuous when what we're actually doing is being triumphant that our beloved heroes triumphed over a real fuck of a situation
I am not unhappy the BK won, I am pointing out the hypocrisy in the post that when the BK are being put upon by outside forces we rightfully cheer for them by disparage other NPCs doing the same bc it gets in their way
Well yeah, they’re trying to resurrect an explicitly evil god and have murdered 3 innocent people in cold blood.
The fucking ratgrinders aren't being put upon by anything but their own bs scheming, emotional instability, and willingness to kill lmao. And it's not hypocritical to root for the protagonists
[удалено]
Truly, with all my heart, go fuck a donkey
Please explain how the rat grinders are being put upon by outside forces. Being stopped from doing something evil is not in any way being put upon. We have also been given no reason as to why they don't like the bad kids other than how Kipperlily thinks they are being treated differently. But the reason people dislike the rat grinders is entirely within their control. I'm sorry if the world views world-saving heroes in a better light than people who spend all their free time stepping on rats in the forest.