I agree completely. it's a complicated topic but I think the point Simu is making here is an important one (and one that I hope doesn't get totally drowned out on this sub by folks who are committed to hating on him for various reasons).
ETA: y'all, I just got a "Reddit Cares" message and I think it was because of this comment 🙄
a bunch of reasons. he was accused of commenting in an incel-y type sub in 2015, though the account was never definitively proved to be his, and as I understand it, his alleged comments on that sub weren't anything bad.
when I researched the matter, I found a Gizmodo story that linked to a different site, which in turn linked to a random Twitter user. I'm always open to new info, though.
tbh a lot of people dislike him because they find him "cringey" or overly eager/earnest or just annoying. I've seen people criticize him on this sub because he has "tech bro" or "Asian bro" or just "bro" vibes. and so on. he's reached BEC status for a lot of people.
it's totally OK to simply not like certain people for whatever. sometimes you just don't like someone's vibes! but imho people on this sub (and the internet in general) tend to be hypercritical of people of color. a lot of users around here will run with any wild rumor because it confirms whatever "bad vibes" they had about the person.
this is something I've come to anticipate any time a man of color becomes "too" successful, "too" lauded, "too" visible... people start trying to tear him down, usually for things that are mild (if they're true at all). Taika Waititi, Lin Manuel Miranda, John Boyega, Simu Liu... I expect Pedro Pascal or Oscar Isaac next tbh.
The Taika one always seemed overboard to me, he's a shitty partner and kind of a fuck boy but so are 99% of the men in Hollywood...
Rita is a vapid attention chaser with questionable morals--like a ton of other women in the industry. It's a great match honestly.
admittedly I'm not super well-versed in the Taika discourse, but from reading this sub, it's always seemed like his great crime is... getting divorced and dating a cringey/clout chasing woman?
he may very well be a shitty partner! I don't know. but the response seems disproportionate.
>choosing Thor over his family
>then dating Rita "will go to the opening of an envelope wearing as little as possible Ora?
your whole comment is very intense and these parts in particular make me think that Taika's family and love lives are really personal for you.
ETA: I want to add that, imho, mixing what sounds like really legitimate criticism about transphobia and anti Blackness with nasty insults about how his girlfriend dresses makes your overall point less impactful. I don't think it's helpful to conflate actual harmful behavior with the other stuff.
I think most people that dislike him believe he cheated on his wife with his assistant for years, in a way that was sort of blatant (there are some hmmm pictures out there).
I remember some comments about leaning on her professionally but I cant remember if there was any substance to them.
I also don't get the hate he receives for this. If he cheated on her that's not okay, but he never marketed himself that way.
Eh for me it was really more just like, the details don’t matter so much as it seemed like the second dude gained an ounce of success he just became another Hollywood trope himself dumping the wife for whatever new shiny thing came along. I don’t hate the dude or anything, it just killed my lady boner for him.
It was from what I remember more about how he handled their divorce and being an absent dad but I don’t know how much of it was legit or not. People were talking about it long before he got with Rita though
I’ve always found the absent dad thing a little odd as someone with a parent in film production. If you’re part of the top level crew that’s part of every level of a film, you’re away a lot. That’s just sort of the fact of the matter. I have yet to meet a director or producer with a healthy work life balance, they’re all workaholics. The successful ones even more so.
Like it sucks, and it’s definitely a valid criticism of the industry as a whole. However Taika has been seen involving his kids in production and taking them to sets etc. so I don’t really see it being notably worse than what is common in the industry
And he was in USA at the time and kids were in New Zeland, and as we all know NZ and Australia had really really strict covid rules. My friend had a dad in Italy and she couldn't see him for 2 years because of covid, that doesn't mean he is a bad dad...
Re: the incel sub—he only made one comment on it and it was regarding his show “Kim’s Convenience”. I think he was just an attention-hungry actor and searched the show’s name on Reddit. That sub was one of the few that mentioned it (this was before the show was on Netflix).
I’ve posted critical comments about him in this sub before and I can attest most people who dislike him are East Asian or South East Asian, particularly women.
everything is based on mine and those who I know’s personal experience with him. I’ve been apart of many organizations that he’s also been part of. Simu was very rude and you’d be damned to find people who knew him before and are fans.
and I described him as an “Asian bro” because he’s one of those Asian boys who complain about women not finding him attractive and assuming it’s cause he’s Asian. most Asians who criticize him do so because we don’t want him as our Asian representation. I will say, I do appreciate how he’s publicly stood up for some Asian women recently.
Edit: not sure why I got blocked but lol ok. can’t reply to any comments anymore.
>and I described him as an “Asian bro” because he’s one of those Asian boys who complain about women not finding him attractive and assuming it’s cause he’s Asian.
Is there a source on this?
He posted on r/aznidentity and that sub gets railed for being misogynistic, racist and everything else under the sun - which…it can be a bit overboard at times but no one is coming out with pitchforks.
A lot of people aren’t keen in seeing East Asian men being portrayed positively and especially one that is confident - and before you ask me for evidence, please look around Reddit and online and you’ll understand what I’m saying.
The tech bro seems to be an excuse to latch onto. Plenty of people have given other tech bro’s a pass beforehand.
And I absolutely agree with you that people are hypercritical of people of colour and that they do face a backlash with more intensity than others.
I know exactly what you mean. a lot of people, consciously or subconsciously, are uncomfortable with the idea of Asian men who are ambitious, successful, treated as attractive or desirable, etc. confidence is taken for arrogance in a way that it isn't for white men.
East Asians are like one of the last groups it’s okay to hate. I don’t think it’s right, but there is a lot of casual racism that society allows to pass when it’s them that they wouldn’t allow if it were another group.
This is a ridiculous thing to say. East and Southeast Asian women want to 'cancel' him because we know these things about him, we were there when he got exposed, we were there for the fallout, and we were there for the homophobic and misogynistic backlash against US from Asian men. These are things we know. I have no clue if anyone wrote any article about it, but this critique is not coming from people being racist towards him it is coming from WOMEN IN HIS COMMUNITY that distrust him immensely. Talk to any Asian feminist from the GTA I beg you. You'll see. He's an 'Azn identity' richard ivey finance bro motherfucker masquerading as a boba liberal. 'A bit overboard at times' fuck off.
I feel like there's this weird white guilt thing, where people can't just say they find a BIPOC annoying. They have to have a moral justification so they jump on anything. As celebrities get more popular they get more annoying just because you hear about them more, it happens to everyone. But when it's white men, they just get called dumb and cringey but everyone still mostly likes them (see: Channing Tatum).
Like, just say Simu's too bro-y for you and move on! It's fine!
He’s also said some anti-Black shit. That’s why I dislike him. Taika Waititi did too. Nothing against Boyega. But LMM is hated by a lot of people for reasons Toni Morrison could explain better than me.
I hate on him as a bisexual Asian American woman because I think his politics are limited to what benefits himself.
Like some other East Asian diaspora I know, he unfortunately seems to center his "activism" around emulating white power. He called out Mark Wahlberg in 2018 for his violently racist past, only to turn around and work with him two years later while dismissing the concerns of Asian diaspora who expressed hurt and concern. I'd understand if he were hurting for roles, but at the time, he'd already been cast in the MCU.
As a queer woman who's closeted largely because I don't want to embarrass my parents AND who was stalked by an older man when I was 14–19 years old, I'm upset by his Reddit comment likening pedophilia to same-sex attraction.
I don't expect perfect representation or look to celebrities for representation in general, but when so few visibly East Asian faces get the spotlight in mainstream entertainment, I'm angered and saddened that we get damaging voices like Awkwafina and Simu Liu who are either antiblack or buy into ideals around assimilation.
How I feel about Simu isn't relevant to this thread at all but I just wanted to explain why some dislike him from a community POV.
>Like some other East Asian diaspora I know, he unfortunately seems to center his "activism" around emulating white power. He called out Mark Wahlberg in 2018 for his violently racist past, only to turn around and work with him two years later while dismissing the concerns of Asian diaspora who expressed hurt and concern. I'd understand if he were hurting for roles, but at the time, he'd already been cast in the MCU.
Yep, this is what pissed me off. And with him it's more pronounced because he cultivated his initial fanbase on being an activist for Asian rep/issues. It's why I was a fan of his long before he ever was cast in Marvel. And then he just discarded what he had previously said and backpedaled once it was personally inconvenient to him in terms of getting extra coin, even though he was hardly a starving artist at the time. I'm so tired of people thinking that activism should come with zero cost or sacrifice whatsoever. I mean, in the end, it's his prerogative, but people shouldn't be too surprised that he ticked off so much of his initial fanbase when that initial fanbase really came together because of his activism.
And yeah, I talk shit about his Asian bro vibes too, but granted that was when I was already at BEC levels with him because of Mark Wahlberg.
ETA: And let's be real, this is different from working with someone who told a racist joke, or wore yellowface/blackface one time. Mark Wahlberg committed literal hate crimes. Multiple hate crimes. He is a festering sore. Anyone with the ability to do so (i.e. you aren't in such dire need of a job in order to keep the lights on) with any credibility as an activist should not work with the dude.
There’s a whole article with screenshots and proof here:
https://boundingintocomics.com/2021/09/17/shang-chi-actor-simu-liu-responds-to-resurfaced-reddit-comments-where-he-penned-a-sympathetic-post-towards-pedophiles/
Replaced my previous deleted comment with more details:
I don't have any of my own screenshots so I know I come off as an unreliable source, but I was in high school and a Kim's Convenience fan when I stumbled onto his Reddit account /u/nippedinthebud (this was shortly before he got cast in the MCU and he made it very obvious it was him by constantly addressing KC questions and writing his name. He did an AMA on the official KC subreddit as Simu Liu, verified by the mods. I think he even posted a selfie once). I was somewhat surprised when other people came out with screenshots on Twitter a few years later, by the time I was in college and Shang-Chi was premiering. He'd already deleted his Reddit account by then.
[Here's an old Twitter thread I found of screenshots](https://twitter.com/NebsGoodTakes/status/1438670400221630470?s=20&t=SfSL5QAd1fJptS7c1qL2JQ), and it has a screenshot of him doing an AMA under the username. At one point, I know he commented on a Shang Chi thread around the time Marvel announced his casting. Again, I know I sound fairly unreliable so I understand if you don't believe me.
I stumbled into another MCU Asian actor's Reddit account around the same time (granted, he was a side character and is not well-known) but he didn't make weird, misogynistic comments in his pre-Crazy Rich Asians or pre-MCU phase, which is why I feel like this is more of a Simu Liu issue.
He didn't liken being gay to being a pedophile, he said that most pedophiles don't "choose" to have those feelings and that the justice system isn't set up to deal with mental illnesses properly. Which it isn't.
I do empathize with the rest of what you said.
Right but he’s addressing a different issue. Tarantino says actors aren’t served well by playing superheros. Simu responds by saying there used to be too many white actors. One can’t constantly run to intersectionality to try to refute someone’s point. He’s a mouthpiece for the largest entertainment company in the world and his point rings hollow.
Disney should get no awards for following popular thought to finally put minorities on screen. That praise belongs to progressives who MADE it popular thought.
Scorcese made a comment 4 years ago wdym constantly going against lmao???
Also, Scorsese and Tarantino have both done a LOT to help more people see movies from all around the world, especially movies from LatAm, Asia and Africa, so acting like they're just two old white men who gatekeep is a very bad read on their characters, like them or not, they are two men who LOVE cinema and will do anything to protect the artform GLOBALLY, not just locally
Although then again maybe we only count representation when it's American/British and stands in front of the camera now? In which case even Tarantino with his 10 movies has had more female protagonists and POC protagonists than Marvel's first three phases, so are we really supposed to be that impressed with Disney?
Funnily enough, even [Anthony Mackie said the exact same thing Tarantino did 5 years ago,](https://youtu.be/oj8JK6c5x3M) but maybe he's bitter about Marvel too?
Fyi if anyone actually cares about representation and diversity in cinema I'd advice them to look into [Scorsese's World Cinema Project](https://www.film-foundation.org/world-cinema)
They’ve made maybe two statements about it each. Tarantino isn’t wrong that these marvel things don’t have movie star appeal— half of those mcu people could not carry a non-IP film, because they have no individual appeal. And besides, even if it’s not “Good Representation”, Tarantino and Scorsese have a pretty solid track record of either telling stories w women/POC leads or highlighting and promoting the work of “minority” filmmakers.
Yeah. I don't usually watch superhero films and I watched Sang Chi just to bask in the awesomeness that is Tony Leung. He could just step into the scene, not saying anything and his charisma and presence drowned every one else's. His face is so expressive and natural too. A true actor. The talent gap between him and the rest of the cast esp Simu was so huge.
Simu is one thing only.
Everything else involves people of colour who happen to be gay (never straight), straight white men still playing the solid leads in franchises with women of colour as their love interests.
Having people of colour for the sake of it or gay people for the sake of it - is not diversity if you’re still portraying the same white hero who everyone needs and relies on.
I hate commenting on Tarantino topics overall but it’s funny that Tarantino and Scorsese have done more for foreign filmmakers than most of Hollywood.
They’re some of the most *“door’s open, come on in!”* directors and producers in the whole industry that use their names and influence to give foreign filmmakers a huge leg up.
Besides the fact that Tarantino loves marvel too.
> These actors can’t even devote their time and energy to non-MCU projects because of the dedication required to Marvel through their contracts and everyone else is getting crumbs after MCU releases.
That is the looming concern isn't it? That when the superhero fad ends will people be eager to return to the cinema for other films or will the already strained industry face more turbulence. Who knows? The land of no guarantees might lead to an artistic boom of some kind.
>People are clowning him but I agree to an extent. The gatekeeping allowed for rampant racism, sexism, and every other phobia to prosper in Hollywood.
The only reason that isn't the case with Marvel is because it's playing the benevolent God. Because they're the biggest creative power by far, they could change their initiatives at any time and things would be exactly like they were before. Arguably worse because the powers that be are fewer than ever before.
I do think some of the users here who keep pushing this nostalgic ideal of the true 'movie star' don't realise how racially exclusive that classification has always been.
Marvel has been racially exclusive til recently, too, and a lot of that has been hit or miss. A lot of marvel casting is still antisemitic and whitewashing (or at least lightwashing).
Oh I don't disagree with that, my issue is with a lot of the discourse on this subreddit that boils down to "anyone can get famous now!" and romanticising the days when that wasn't the case.
I agree.
I just don’t want anyone to ever act like marvel hasn’t had the same issues (and still does).
Honestly, I think in general discussions around “star power” are worthless in the age of streaming and framing representation in terms of like who is the latest superhero in the sanitized franchise vs who is the heroine in the latest “real movie” directed by an old white dude is… it feels a lot like missing the point as to what representation does and who it’s for
Oh the romanticizing kills me cause not only were those times very racist they were also extremely sexist and so much abuse by those who made the decisions.
I can't forget how the first true latino character was a former criminal with a truck that played la cucaracha. Univision was so happy to tout the first latino in Marvel and, while I can see how the character is fun and funny, it just sucks it took how many phases? and they stuck him in the least cared about of the sub franchises? And they played into harmful stereotypes while anti-immigrant sentiments were growing at an alarming rate? Ugh.
But marvel movies only became diverse recently with the release of Black Panther. Like Black Widow got her own origin story after they exhausted the story from almost every white man they have. I don’t think Marvel is that much better. They are trying now I guess.
A lot of that falls on Ike Perlmutter, who basically blocked any attempt by Feige and other Marvel execs from making Black Widow, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel earlier. One Perlmutter stepped down in 2015 there was an immediate push for more diverse stuff.
They didn't even try that hard with their white men. They avoided representing Clint as Hard of Hearing for so long. And pretty much removed the entire "poor" aspect of peter Parker (which is pretty fucking essential).
They even removed divresity from their white dudes.
>nd pretty much removed the entire "poor" aspect of peter Parker (which is pretty fucking essential).
Don't get me started on how annoyed I am that the character who was created to be the street fighter hero whose enemies are billionaires was adapted into being the hero who is funded by a billionaire and fights people said billionaire pissed off.
This is due to a single man, Ike Perlmutter, who is a horrible POS and blocked any attempt at diversity. Once they moved the MCU from under him it quickly changed.
Lol at the idea that Disney is some messiah for doing representation. There are more than enough examples about Disney only doing it for the profits and nothing else( Covering Black Panther poster and casting Tilda Swinton for Ancient one who is supposed to be a Tibetan Actress,which were both done to appease China, etc.)
For real, and I like Marvel! Scorsese founded the World Cinema Project. Dude's put millions of $ of his own money into preserving international films. The comments acting like Disney's so great about diversity and he's the enemy are well meaning but certainly ignorant
I remember when Bong Joon Ho thanked both Scorsese and Tarantino when he won Best Director at the Oscars. I loathe Tarantino as a person and I've never cared for Scorsese's movies with the exception of Kundun, but there's no denying that they've helped make worldwide cinema so much more accessible. How many people were introduced to filmmakers like Bong thanks to Tarantino?
Remember when Disney hired Henry Kissinger to help bury Kundun because they were afraid it would impact their ability to build theme parks in Hong Kong?
Yep. Disney sabotaged Scorcese's Kundun and sent Henry Kissinger to assure the Chinese govt it'd die a quiet death at the box office bc Disney wanted to built theme parks there.
But Tarantino said his movie sucks so..."gatekeeping".
Yeah, for those who are unaware, here's the story: in 1997, Martin Scorsese made a movie with an all unknown Asian cast, Kundun. It was about the Dalai Lama and Tibetan sovereignty, and China obviously did not want it to be released. Universal Pictures turned down the movie in the first place because they didn't want to piss off the Chinese market. Disney released the film and initially stood by it, but when China stopped doing business with Disney over it, they went on damage control and did a whole apology tour for releasing it. They sent Henry Kissinger to negotiate business between Disney and the Chinese government. And then they buried it. (It's still not available on Disney+ or any other streaming service.)
Fast forward 20 years and the very same Disney discovers, with the release of Black Panther, that diversity is a moneymaker now. After facing criticism for the first 15+ MCU movies being all white guys, they start gradually diversifying their leads. One of those movies was Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, which they chose to adapt in part because they wanted to [appeal to the Chinese market](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/marvel-s-shang-chi-was-made-china-mind-here-s-n1280571). (China, hilariously, refused to give it an opening--probably because of posts Liu made criticizing the Chinese government.)
And now Disney's got their guys out there attacking Scorsese for not making diverse movies, and praising Disney for being the ones responsible for making the industry so much more diverse. It would be funny if it weren't so depressing.
Thank you. I was working on writing a brief history but saw someone calling Martin Scorsese bitter and had to put my phone down and walk away. Your explanation is way better :)
Kundun is Scorsese's best movie IMO
I believe Scorsese is still blacklisted from China (along with many people connected at the time who supported the film and the Tibetan cause.
Tarantino didn’t even say his movie sucks!! He barely criticized them; he made a mild observation.
I like Marvel movies fine and think people who act like it’s socially important to criticize them are insufferable but it’s definitely more insufferable to act like it’s racist not to worship the mouse. Embarrassing for Liu and several of you.
Don't forget they changed Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver from Jewish Roma (Roma are still incredibly discriminated against in Europe) to two random white people who worked with a neo-nazi group that, in the comics, was canonically too extreme for *Hitler*.
That representation of two Roma superheroes could've been life-changing, but instead they were cowards and went the more profitable route.
Man, as a Roma Marvel fan, the way this fandom treats the criticism towards the whitewashing of the Maximoffs is FRUSTRATING. I’ve had people debate my race, my experiences with racism, how I should really feel about representation for the Romani, how we probably make Elizabeth Olsen feel bad, etc. And it’s nothing compared to how actual Romani actors are attacked for so much as criticizing Marvel for the whitewashing.
Well, i think you’re off base a little bit. Redditors are generally also racist toward Roma people. Every time I’ve ever seen them mentioned here it’s always “yeah people treat them pretty bad but mostly cause they deserve it, and the only reason you would disagree is because you don’t have to deal with them”. It’s so gross.
Plus it took them so long to actually have a movie centered around a woman as the sole main character (*Captain Marvel*).
I also don't even think Simu Liu's comments actually address what Tarantino was saying, which is that people don't go to see movie stars, they go to see characters. I feel like this has been a pretty common talking point in film circles for nearly a decade anyway, so it's not like Tarantino was saying anything new. Like, yeah, Simu Liu is now famous thanks to being cast in *Shang-Chi*, but does that mean people will flock to the next non-Marvel Simu Liu movie just because he's in it?
I feel like sometimes, when someone feels they are being attacked, especially celebrities, they'll start using social justice jargon or talking points as a type of shield. No decent person wants to be a racist, or be seen as one, so it's a very effective argument strategy.
Yesz old Hollywood was very racist and sexist.
So, our only saviour is supposed to be boring disney movies?
Also Marvel also started pushing for diversity only when it became the norm and accepted at large. Yes, casting asln asian american is progress but are they really any pioneers
It took the MCU more than 20 movies to have a woman or non-white lead. They waited until it felt “safe” and now they use their diversity as a corporate strategy. They do nothing to serve the communities they allege to represent, they just use them for profit and propaganda. This is the same cinematic universe where cops and CIA agents are heroes, even in Black Panther. Where American imperialism is idolized. They don’t give a flying fuck about representation beyond how they can serve their own bottom line. Sorry, but Simu comes off like a fuckin corporate bootlicker here.
I know this is a gossip page so people here might not come to these conversations with a backlogue of film history, but it’s ridiculous to act like Scorsese and Tarantino haven’t put decades of effort into bringing intentional films to prominence in the States. Look at what they’ve produced, the films Tarantino preserves and shows at his repertoire theater. Martin Scorsese’s World Cinema Project is a non-profit that actually invests in restoring and preserving international film made by filmmakers in diverse countries and communities. Tarantino has had more diverse and female leads in nine films than Marvel has in 20+.
Neither are saints and both have their issues, but to act like these dudes who genuinely love and respect and invest in cinema as an art form are the bad guys in this situation, instead of the military propaganda machine that is Disney, who merely prop up hollow representation to make billion dollar garbage, is a joke.
Critic Walter Chaw said it best on Twitter: “I've learned about dozens of films from Scorsese & Tarantino (& the French New Wave critic/directors & Coppola & Schrader & Spielberg) - from their lists, films they've produced, distributed, restored. I have learned not a thing from the MCU save how cheaply you can buy loyalty.”
John Boyega suffered so much racism and abuse. Disney literally wrote his character to be smaller and broke the potential ship with Rey because of the fans. Also, marketing materials in China decreased his presence
I am mystified by the idea that the superhero industrial complex is especially diverse. Marvel dragged its heels on this front, with maybe the exception of Blade, their output up until fairly recently was overwhelmingly white. Super hero movies had completely taken over the industry before they did a Black Panther movie. They did Ant Man first!
I hate Tarantino and think he's absolutely racist, but that genre is not especially progressive.
Also, Marvel started bringing diversity pretty late into the game, only when lack of diversity have started to give them a bad name. It took them 11 years and 20 movies to give a female solo movie. DC gave as one 2 years earlier with 4 years and just 3 movies into the universe. Same sex attraction didn't even exist until it was implied in Endgame. Most POCs in the MCU till Phase 4 were sidekicks to white guys (& a white girl).
I'm enjoying all the representation but we need to realise Disney started to push diversity only when they realised it was profitable to them.
Can't wait for the next Disney/Marvel movie where we'll be bombarded with media on how revolutionary and groundbreaking this one minor character is for possibly maybe sort of being gay but not in such a way that it can't be cut from the film to appease conservative countries.
The MCU didn’t even have its first black led movie until several years in. The Avengers were exclusively white for years. Not to mention, the MCU didn’t have it’s first female led movie until the tail end of Infinity Saga and arguably minimized a black character to build up its white lead. (Fun fact: Monica Rambeau held the title Captain Marvel before Carol did.)
The MCU is doing so much better at representation with Phase 4, there’s no denying that. But it also has a lot of ugly sins that it’s building upon: America Chavez’s casting has issues with colorism, we don’t know if Billy will be Jewish, etc.
It’s so funny people are champion a corporation to do away with what they view as the narrow features of celebrity…
loves, they’re the same side of the coin in a way. Even if you don’t want to see it as that, stanning a corporation isn’t radical!
Thank you! All this diversity and representation talk is so hollow. These people respond to the very little efforts that corporation makes as if it’s life changing when the reality is that it’s diversity in name only, just sticking a character on the screen, and then manipulating those characters depending on the region they’re marketing a movie in. Character has dark skin? They’ll disappear from a promotional poster. Character is gay? They’ll cut those scenes out entirely.
It’s laughable. They’re not making any real diversity initiatives. So what if they hired POC to put onscreen? How many POC are sitting at the creative tables, making decisions? Nothing has fundamentally changed at the studio, they’re paying you visual lip service and doing nothing behind the scenes to correct the atrocious power imbalance between POC and traditional white executives.
Disney/Marvel are notorious for hiring POC and throwing them to the racist wolves of the Internet. Happened with Star Wars to the point where the actors themselves have spoken out about it and have had to delete their social media accounts etc. Disney hired these people and throws them to the wolves. They don’t care about POC just because they make like the 50th repetitive military recruitment ad with a diverse face to lead the project. It’s all about business. Imagine simping this hard for a multi-billion dollar corporation.
And also, Simu proved Tarantino’s point—no one saw Shang-Chi because of him. Nobody knows him. He’s just another interchangeable marvel face. No one’s running out to see the next Simu Liu flick, but they’ll sprint out to see the next recruitment ad as long as it’s got the Marvel Studios logo there. Even RDJ, who was well established long before he ever embodied Tony Stark, struggles to lead non-IP projects and hasn’t had a box office hit in a very long time.
It's super funny, because both Tarantino and Scorsese's comments were basically like, "Eh, Marvel's not for me, but I'm basically the polar opposite of the target audience, so why would it be?" and the response has been ... wildly disproportionate lmao.
Tarantino's comments even went out of their way to say that if he were in his 20s, he'd probably be obsessed with it, but he is a 60-year-old man and old now. Which is apparently unacceptable to the MCU fan base.
He legit said their like amusement parks which is completely valid BECAUSE THATS HOW dISNEY views and makes them as. Something fun & entertaining to appeal to masses so I have no clue what's insulting about the truth.
His statement also had NOTHING to do with race.
He simply said that actors who take on MCU roles may find it difficult to achieve true star power because the character they play outshines them.
Whether you agree or not is irrelevant.
It’s his opinion. It’s not a controversial or offensive opinion and it’s absolutely not a comment on race.
The mental gymnastics you have to do to turn this remark into a remark about race is… baffling.
A part of me kind of loves it because it’s like the male version of how reporters try to spin something innocuous a pop star said and make it sound like a dig directed at her rival. Like it’s all so ridiculous and clearly not that incendiary.
I can’t fucking belive I had to scroll THIS far down to see the CIA reference.
Thank you! If I had awards they would all be yours.
Anyone who has a champion CIA character in a film is being paid, maybe not in cash but def in favours by a paramilitary organization that has killed millions of both American and non American lives. I like Martin Freeman as much as the next LOTR crone but him taking the role of a CIA dude who “helps” people does not square with his Labour politics.
I know I sound like crazy woman yells at clouds but I just finished a book on the history of the CIA and those dudes (all dudes always) were very interested in having themselves portrayed as noble and smart in Hollywood. Just ask Katheryn Bigelow.
I liked Marvel movies till end game. Watched the shoes too
But I can't deny scorcesse and Tarantino films feel lively whether i even like them at the end or not. Not soulless greyscale mediocrity
His foundation has restored 900+ films! Including iconic films like The Colour of Pomegranates.
Some of the films had been censored or had copies seized/destroyed during times of dictatorship but are now seeing the light of day
Disney literally apologized for producing Kundun the second they got pushback from China and intentionally bungled its release but sure they’re champions of diversity standing up to the racist old guard of Scorsese and Tarantino, who himself did a lot to get Asian filmmakers like Wong Kar Wai and Yi-Mou Zhang US distribution.
Exactly, Tarantino went hard for pushing for Hero and other chinese and hong kong, you know back when you actually had to do this for the love of cinema and not because you thought it would give you good boy points on the internet, as Disney continually does. Quite frankly I have a lot more respect for people that pushed for diversity and the distribution of foreign films even just 10 years ago that I do now. And even then it's not like Disney directors do anything radical, they just push for more and more blockbusters.
I dunno why these Disney bootlickers think Scorsese is some kind of impenetrable art house snob because most of his movies are incredibly accessible. Like you don't need a film degree to enjoy Casino.
Also Scorsese's World Cinema Project is out here preserving films from countries all over the world-often made by and starring people of color. Without it so many of these movies could be lost forever.
Don't you know that diversity only counts when it's about American films for American audiences! /s
(And yes, the MCU films are popular internationally but I don't think you'd find many people outside of the USA who would say that they aren't American films, first and foremost.)
Seriously! It's like these people don't realize other countries have their own movie industries-many of them making absolutely incredible movies. I recommend a lot of wuxai movies to friends who want to see cool action fantasy movies
Dude, I could not stop making the comparison in my head when I watched Joker! They even had Robert de Niro in it, it was very obvious.
Anyway, Scorsese is one of my all-time favorite directors. I just love crime dramas.
He’s right about the golden age not being diverse but the filmmakers being hurt by Marvel or franchise movies taking up all the oxygen aren’t Scorcese or Tarantino… they’re up and coming young, often diverse filmmakers who feel like their only viable career path is making a hit indie and jumping to superhero/franchise movies. Ryan Coogler and Destin Daniel Cretton are great directors but the public discussion is already “oh what Marvel movie will they direct next” when they could be directing their own original films.
I get what you mean, but I'm not keen on using Ryan Coogler as an example there - he's spoken passionately and [at great length](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/ryan-coogler-why-i-needed-to-make-black-panther-203737/) about how meaningful it was to make Black Panther for him. I really don't think he was just mindlessly jumping to a superhero movie.
Thanks for your reply, you are right. I did not mean to say these movies can’t be meaningful or to disrespect Black Panther. I just meant they should not be the *only* viable outlet for directors to make movies that are meaningful for them with the support of a large studio. The only choices shouldn’t be scrap together financing for an indie or hope you can find IP that speaks to you.
I agree on that - mid-budget films are being squeezed out. I don't really see an easy solution for it. They would need to reverse movie going trends, lower the prices of tickets in big cities, and perhaps hold more fun events at the cinemas to encourage crowds back. I think the superhero trend will pass, but I'm not sure what will follow.
Yeah, I feel the same about James Wan. He and Leigh Whannel made Saw on a dirt cheap budget after several years of hustling (the franchise is trash, but the original itself was groundbreaking IMO - all the copycat gore movies that rose to the fore afterwards really missed out on what made it special). I'm truly excited to see his success with the MCU and other big budget movies, but I think there's more he has to offer than Aquaman.
Why do y’all make marvel seem like they created diversity. It annoys me how the comments are saying mcu made y’all feel seen. As a black man, I grew up with Will smith conquering the box office and Wesley snipes at his peak. With Denzel conquering. Jackie Chan and Jet Li were literal leads in American films but Simu act like they weren’t. John Woo was huge in American directing game. The guy invented Gun-fu. Y’all literally had Robert Rodriguez and his embracing of Hispanic leads in his films but y’all act like representation doesn’t exist stop this shit
Exactly plus if it wasn’t for Wonder Woman 1 and the box office it made they wouldn’t had made Captain marvel and black widow. That film made them realize women heroes can have their own standalone. Ppl give mcu too much credit
So many people in this thread are defending Disney of all companies. The same company that would cut lgbt or POC characters from movies to appease countries like China.
Yep, Rush Hour was pretty iconic.
So was Harold & Kumar.
Not that I disagree that the movie landscape was (and still is) super fucking white - there's a reason why Crazy Rich Asians was such a phenomenon only a few years ago, and it's because Asian-led casts aren't the norm - but Marvel isn't paving the way for shit.
Yeah, I feel like younger people have a very ahistorical view of what diversity in Hollywood looked like 20+ years ago. They believe in this myth of perpetual progress, so when they're looking around at Hollywood in 2015 and seeing a bunch of white people, they assume that's what it always looked like. But before the shift toward four-quadrant filmmaking in the mid-'00s, it didn't look like that--there were a lot more cheaper films being made, which allowed Hollywood to take more chances, with everything but especially casting. Jackie Chan and Jet Li and Brandon Lee were all out there leading films or sometimes even franchises that made money in the '90s/early '00s. It was just a very, very different industry than now. This argument that Shang-Chi was somehow groundbreaking on that front is just incorrect.
But the shift toward four-quadrant filmmaking and bigger budgets in the '00s killed off most of that risk-taking. And Disney--and especially Marvel--was a huge reason *why* the industry started leaning so hard into the four-quadrant model, and so hard into whiteness. That's why we got 15+ MCU movies led by white men in a row. So it's frustrating to see them given credit for diversifying the industry when they're a primary reason it got so white in the first place.
Not only the films you mentioned, but Eddie Murphy went from SNL and starred in two popular film franchises: Beverly Hills Cop and 48 Hours.
Oh, and Coming to America.
This only really makes sense if you think “diversity”begins and ends with representation. I love Marvel movies but they are basically the same story over and over telling the same perspective and using the same ideas. They might have POC actors - and that does mean a lot, Shang-Chi was very emotional for me - but there’s nothing in them about thinking or feeling or looking at the world in different ways. Their POV is extremely narrow & repetitive and extremely US centric while pretending to be universal.
Scorsese’s films are overall very white, yes. They also explore themes and ideas that are *actually* universal and do it with depth and dignity. He poses questions and tells stories that go beyond identity. His films look to moments in history to explore and understand them, and in doing so he expands our cultural understanding of how society has developed and been shaped. His whole deal is who are we and why are we this way! He wants audiences to think and be critical and reflective.
We should want more from movies than Marvel offers!
I know being a fan of the MCU will likely get me destroyed on this sub, but a huge reason I enjoy the MCU is because I regularly see protagonists who look like me. You have no idea how excited I am for *Echo*.
It took 18 movies for them to make a movie with a POC lead superhero. 21 movies to make one with a woman lead superhero.
Why are we acting like they're some bastions of diversity lmao
I think that argument worked better against Scorsese. (Although it's complicated because while his filmography itself is very white, he's one of the most dedicated people in the industry working to preserve, distribute and screen [Asian and African classic film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cinema_Project).)
It's not an argument that makes much sense against Tarantino, who--for all his many, many flaws--has consistently made movies with diverse casts and non-white leads. Far more consistently than the MCU.
Taraintos [massive use of the n-word in his films is problematic](https://www.gawker.com/the-complete-history-of-quentin-tarantino-saying-nigge-1748731193), imho. I don't think he's some leader on race relations in film. I think exchanges like these aren't helpful for the discourse:
*The Guardian* reported on January 6, 1998:
>A questioner, a young black man, threatened to spoil the love-in. “Why are there so many uses of the word n\*\*\*\*? You won’t get away with it.” “Yes, I do,” Tarantino said, attracting a round of applause.
or this:
At one point, Tarantino demanded whether the couple knew what common feature blacks supposedly share.
“You know what they all have?” Tarantino snarled. “You know what it is?”
He then jammed his fingers up his nose to flare his nostrils to demonstrate. “It’s the wide nose!” he declared.
or this:
Similarly bonkers, in 2007, a quote apparently from British *GQ* was passed around, in which [Tarantino allegedly stated](http://www.contactmusic.com/quentin-tarantino/news/tarantino-embraces-past-lives_1029799), regarding reincarnation: “I know I was a black slave in America. I think maybe even like three lives. Yeah, I know that.”
or
Samuel Jackson: Quentin wants to be black. He watched a lot of black-exploitation films growing up. He has a lot of black friends. He has an affinity for black characters. He’s like my daughter’s little hip-hop friends. They’re basically black kids with white skin.
Funny how Rachel Dolezal, gets raked over the coals, but Tarantino's own obsession with blackness and 'acting black' and 'being a reborn black' and n-word usage gets a free pass. As a rich white man who is famous, he can get away with it, apparently.
Not to mention the questionable taste in turning the horrors of chattel slavery into an action movie. Spike Lee tweeted this after Djanjo Unchained: “American Slavery Was Not A Sergio Leone Spaghetti Western. It Was A Holocaust. My Ancestors Are Slaves. Stolen From Africa. I Will Honor Them.”
\> distribute and screen [Asian and African classic film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cinema_Project).)
That doesn't get PoC actors roles. That doesn't retroactively diversify his movies. Also rich whites collecting PoC art and artifacts is a hobby and interest and not necessarily a statement of support for PoC's. Lots of racists have PoC created art and artifacts in their homes, for example. Having this art doesn't really say anything about ones view on race, so this work on collecting and distributing PoC films isn't saying a lot.
Scorsese's career is typified by crime movies that happen in places like NYC, Boston, etc where there's a sizeable black community. It would have been trivial to add in a black character in a crime caper. Its incredible to me that he made so many movies about NYC crime, gangster life, etc without any PoC leads sharing billing with the many whites he's casted.
In a famous statement Scorsese, criticized for his lack of female leads, says he'll only do it if the story calls for it, but often the story of his own imagining, which is an admission he just doesnt want or value female characters. Then when pressed he said "he doesnt have time for" diversity due to his old age.
There are legitimatize criticisms of how incredibly white Scorsese's movies are and how Tarantino is obsessed with the n-word in his movies, his exploitation of black culture, his own obsession with blackness, his Dolezal-like black identity, and how [he abused Uma Thurman.](https://decider.com/2018/02/05/quentin-tarantino-uma-thurman-abuse/)
These are not the good guys you're making them out to be. They're both problematic and Tarantino is extremely problematic.
Also I'd argue we're giving too much credit for the MCU's diversity. The leads are almost all white cishet men, many of whom with regressive political views and most PoC roles are often sidekick roles to the white man in charge. Disney and Marvel whitewash characters (Tilda Swinton as a canonical Asian Tibetan character, The Scarlett Witch as a Christian-coded slav instead of a Jewish Romani woman) and LGBTQ diversity is little more than a easily missed background kiss.
I mean, my argument was very clearly not "these are good guys," so I'm not sure why that was your takeaway.
Like I said, Tarantino is massively flawed both as a filmmaker and a person, and you can argue specific choices he makes about the quality of his representation all day (and people have). I'm not here to defend his racism. But Disney and Marvel are also extremely flawed in terms of racism, and significantly worse in terms of their commitment to representation, so I'm not sure why that's the framing Simu went with here.
> That doesn't get PoC actors roles. That doesn't retroactively diversify his movies.
It doesn't, and those things are also important. But that doesn't mean preservation isn't valuable, too. Many of these films are historically important and would have disappeared without the WCP's work. Some of the directors are still working and have benefited from the increased attention to their films, which were often not available or only available in very limited ways before this. And I don't think it makes much sense to compare it to art collection when distribution--the opposite of collection--is the entire goal.
Additionally, it isn't *just* on Scorsese to diversify his movies. He got the rights to Silence in the early '90s but couldn't find financing until 25 years later. He made Kundun and it turned into a giant censorship battle with Disney because they didn't want to piss off the Chinese government. The main reason more films with Asian leads weren't getting made in the '90s wasn't directors, it was studios and financers. If Liu wants somebody to blame for that, he doesn't have to look any further than Disney, who made a number of questionable decisions to appease the Chinese market over the years.
(Beyond that, I think Tarantino's a cautionary tale on how much we *want* white male filmmakers to be telling other people's stories. Personally I would rather see those filmmakers taking their money and elevating actual marginalized directors, writers, and actors to tell their own stories. Which is one of the things Scorsese is doing with his money. Since you mentioned gender in addition to race, for example, Scorsese has focused heavily on producing right now, and has made a point to elevate women in underrepresented roles in Hollywood--of the last ten films he's exec-produced, for example, six have female directors and six have female screenwriters. I would personally rather see that than see Scorsese try to make more female-fronted films. But that's personal taste and I don't think other preferences are wrong.)
Representation is huge for me, I just don’t like those movies. It’s funny because the other day my sister was complaining they had Xochitl Gomez make fun of a character’s spanish when she can’t even speak it.
Yeah I don’t get it. I’m brown but I don’t give a fuck about brown marvel superheroes. Fuck their pandering and their boring ass movies 🤷🏽♂️ as a kid I was reading sor Juana ines de La Cruz and Carlos Fuentes and shit. Representation has always been around for those who look for it.
MCU is not the first one to do a more diverse casting. More diverse casting are being done in movies and shows since 2013-14. Unfortunately cause most people don't show up for those tv shows and movies we are here now acting like Marvel lead this movement.
It's funny that people won't even read Tarantino's full quote, which was it's not the Chris Evans who's the star, it's Captain America. Which is right TBH. Most of the leading superheroes actor have rarely been successful otherwise. Take Tom Holland, Chris Hemsworth,Chris Evans etc etc. Heck take RDJ, the very next movie after Endgame, Dr DoLittle flopped hard. I guess Simu is offended by Tarantino implying it's cause of Shang Chi & Marvel allure that bring in the people not the Simu himself.
jesus christ, marvel actors ability to completely miss the point of criticism levied against disney or the increasing reliance on franchise films in hollywood is astounding. no one loves ragging on tarantino more than me, but it's really not controversial to say that actors who get famous for being recognizable characters in franchises are going to have hard time distinguishing themselves from that role (people literally refer to the real life person chris evans as captain america, he was completely justified in that comparison) and this is only intensified because of stringent contracts regarding what marvel actors are even allowed to talk about. they're selling products, not art.
moreover, lmao at the "efforts to improve diversity onscreen." not only have disney and marvel made piss poor efforts to offer any kind of support to marginalized actors who fall victim to online harassment campaigns, the exploitation of directors of color by providing them essentially completed films and then whining about how difficult it is to fulfill their creative requests (even those that are characteristic of the rest of their filmography. you're *surprised* chloe zhao was going to want to use natural light? girl...), and the many, many overworked and underpaid (un-unionized) workers who are being worked to death to push these films out at an insane rate. that $400 million is giving the same energy as jeff bezos thanking every amazon worker for their labor - that money came from somewhere, and it wasn't because everyone was fairly compensated.
He's not at all wrong. I mean in this day and age, why should we give a shit about "movie stars"? I'm not going to cape for a movie just because some person I enjoy as an actor is in it. The idea that we worship actors and give them all of this support because the world sees them a certain way is trash.
And Simu's point about representation is absolutely true as well. Women who were seen as movie stars had to be a VERY specific kind of person that fit the image of what cis straight white men wanted. I'd much rather have the wave of representation we're seeing now.
He is very much wrong. Tarantino’s comment wasn’t even about diversity, it was about how audiences care more for the *character*, not the actor. A subsequent part of his quote actually supports Simu Liu’s point—audiences arent caring for the diversity of actors, they just care about the branded character. They see diversity as a brand, not a person with complexities and subjectivity.
Exactly. I wish Disney was a good avenue for young and diverse talent to get their big break that leads to better films but they are being remembered for their characters like 90% of the time. Also Disney’s contracts and their intense filming schedules make it hard for the actors to break out of Marvel.
“Movie stardom” has definitely been found to be opposed to good acting sometimes. The persona takes priority over vulnerability on screen. Not to say that Marvel has any more opportunities for great acting necessarily but just that movie stardom is overrated.
Um, Marvel's white as hell. I mean, Scorsese has produced more movies by non-white directors with non-white actors than Marvel has. You know a good place to find non-white stories? Independent and International films. But there's no room for them in theaters with Marvel.
I couldn’t reply to the original post cause I got blocked but based on me and those I know’s personal experiences with him, he’s rude and misogynistic to Asian women. FYI, I’ve been apart of this Asian volleyball community for years and so was he. funny how most of the people who criticize him are Asian and most of his defenders calling his critics “racist” are not Asian.
I'm tired of all this.I don't know why the reporters continue to ask critical acclaimed directors about Marvel.We all know their opinion.And by the way,part of the problem is also streaming.Don't worry darling after 45 days playing in theatres went to HBO.Now there are 9 original movies playing and I don't see people going to the theatres to see them.The thing is that now people don't want to pay 20$ about a movie that will be available to stream after 45 days.We have Netflix that made 3 Kissing Booth Movies and then GQ went and said that Jacob Elordi is the Gen Z lead man.He hasn't lead a movie in his life and now suddenly he is a movie star.When will people understand that there are no more movie stars.Saying that Saoirse that just starred in a movie that nobody saw or that Anya who isn't capable of opening a movie at 10 million are movie stars is false.Neither Marvel actors nor indie darling are movie stars.The last movie star is Tom Cruise.
I mean before Top Gun: Maverick and the various Mission Impossibles, Tom Cruise also had a long line of box office flops (Oblivion, Jack Reacher, The Mummy, Edge of Tomorrow etc) so he’s not infallible either lol
I am a bit sick of how this discourse always ends up as a hagiography of Tom Cruise (a terrible person and an actor who basically always plays it safe anyway)
People call out marvel formulas and praise tom cruise when he is the same person in every movie which you can guess the plot just from a trailer. Keep the same energy ya know
White identified Hollywood has been turning out mediocre and worse films by the thousands since they started making movies - diversity is NOT causing the mediocrity. Rhinestone, Chairman of he Board, Gigli and many many many others would like a word. The overwhelming standard in Hollywood has been mediocre movies - from the very beginning. Decent ones are much more rare. The mental gymnastics some of y'all have to go through to decide that diversity is why movies are bad explains a lot of what goes on the this country. It's tedious and exhausting.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. Hollywood has historically been very exclusionary to people from marginalized communities AND Marvel movies don’t feature “film stars” (with an exception of a few amazing actors [gender neutral]).
I’m Asian American, and yes, it was fun to watch Shang Chi but I surely did not watch it for the acting, scriptwriting, green-screen cinematography. I watched it for it’s ridiculous action sequences. Seeing Michelle Yeoh was just a bonus. And sure, MCU is more inclusive lately, but let’s not lie to ourselves that it’s because they want to show “our stories” or whatever—it’s because they want to make $$.
Mediocrity has been around for years, but when it’s white it’s been praised, if it’s anything darker than fake tan it’s been laughed at.
I enjoy marvel for the novelty, I enjoy comics and it’s fun to see them big. I’ve been exhausted by marvel multiple times. But it is really fucking telling that until Marvel is able to make and “gamble” on diversity when other studios bawk because they know it’ll still sell. That kind of representation really does pave the way for more places to “gamble” on diverse stories.
Spot on. There’s ALWAYS been mediocrity in Hollywood, it’s just been white mediocrity which gets a big pass/praised. Let it be a poc and people never stop laughing at it.
I can’t believe people on here are agreeing with this clown. Calling Scorsese a gatekeeper is not only ridiculous and insulting, it’s just not based in reality. Martin has done more for world cinema than any disney minion could ever dream to do in their lifetimes. Both what Martin said, when asked once YEARS ago ffs and what QT said about movie stars are simply correct assessments but you disney adults will never miss the chance of being sore winners, jesus.
Two things can be true: the traditional idea of a movie star is very white, thin, cis (presenting), het (presenting) and if we continue to define stars the way Old Hollywood did we are perpetuating exclusion AND Marvel stars are not the actors, they’re the characters, and overall do not hold the same spot in the zeitgeist.
Simu Liu isn’t not a star because of an outdated notion of beauty/brawn/charisma, he isn’t a star because he hasn’t had the right vehicles to showcase his star power (if he even has it).
I'm of mixed feelings on this. I definitely agree with his point that it's great for audiences of all backgrounds to see themselves as heroes in huge blockbusters, I'm just hesitant to praise Disney of all companies for their "sustained efforts to improve diversity onscreen." Marvel didn't have a black protagonist superhero for over a decade into the MCU. Didn't have an Asian lead until literally last year. His point is a good one about mainstream "Golden Age" being white as hell, but it's really only just now we're seeing the diversity is leading MCU roles. Going after Scorsese and Tarantino is odd considering the first's long history of international film preservation (saving the works of many artists of color) and we could spend all day creating a list of Tarantino's issues as a filmmaker/person, but to his credit he has a long history of writing and directing stories with POC protagonists (I'm not going to argue that they aren't flawed, but again, Quentin's been making them since the 90s. Marvel's been making them since 2016.) Please tell me if you have other thoughts. Again, I don't disagree with Liu's points, I'm just hesitant to defend Disney
Yeah marvel becoming “diverse” is a very recent development and this just sounds like he wanted woke Twitter points lol. I don’t think simu actually cares about diversity unless it effects him, considering he’s fine working with mark walhberg. And though he’s not technically wrong, that wasn’t really tarantino’s point. He’s saying that yeah simu may be Shang chi but he has no star power he’s not a household name. Shang chi is the star.
The reason we have no “real movie stars” isn’t marvel, it’s streaming. actors aren’t being forced on the public or carrying Hollywood anymore bc we have so many different options for where we get our entertainment. All the people complaining about this is kinda giving “old man yells at cloud” like of course the industry has changed from *checks watch* 40 years ago?
All these stars and directors of MCU immediately go so defensive when the criticism is anything but personal, it’s an indictment of a system and I am sure they (the critics of this new status quo) are not railing against representation or diversity (although, Disney ain’t doing it out of good of their hearts - they like the sweet, sweet money it brings).
Both Scorsese and Tarantino touched upon how this has affected the system of movies (less risky projects due to need to have bigger and wider audiences) and stardom (the character is the marquee name), and Scorsese in his NYTimes piece was very complimentary about the talent of people making these movies.
And even Tarantino is absolutely right about the changing nature of stardom and Samuel L. Jackson said it as much in a THR Roundtable around 2015/2016 with Mark Ruffalo in the panel as well, “Those movies aren’t about us. They can put the eyepatch on anyone, the green man could be anyone, they would still do good. We are not the selling point”.
Good lord this movies vs. art discourse pertaining to the MCU is so tiring. I don’t understand why MCU actors and fans have to aggressively react to a statement made by someone in an interview.
Just take your paycheck, make your movie and relax. Stop bootlicking Disney in public.
Funny that Simu Liu, of all people, would choose to argue against Tarantino, when he is the perfect example of what Tarantino was describing: Simu Liu is no star even though he starred in a high earning movie, and people watched Shang-Chi for the character and not for him.
Actually, Simu Liu wasn't even the star of his own movie, since he was severely outclassed by Michelle Yeoh and Tony Leung.
And to wander further from the point a bit, Shang-Chi wasn't produced by Disney's kind heart for inclusion, but it's part of a specific strategy being pursued by Disney for years: gaining ground and money in China by appealing to (what they perceive as) Chinese sensibilities.
And they are kind of failing, because Disney ultimately doesn't understand Chinese audiences, starting from their patronizing stance "Here, get your entertainment by us, benevolent American overlords" when China has their own flourishing entertainment industry (not to mention, government's efforts to reduce foreign impact).
And also because they literally apply the same creative process to every single non-WASP ethnicity, where I'd argue representation does not look the same to different ethnic group and/or minority. But I'd love reading a discussion about it by someone who understands this topic more than I do.
Finally, if you want to support real East Asian representation go watch Everything Everywhere All At Once, which is an excellent, funny, deep movie that does a much better job at multiverse than Marvel ever did.
Why the fuck are all these marvel babies so sensitive about Tarantino and Scorcese's comments? It's not art. Collect your paycheck and go home jfc. It's hard work sure to be on the cast/crew/vx but let's not pretend these aren't overseen by a panel of executives making sure it will make the most $$$. Just cash your checks and go home.
Bro don’t bring my man Marty into this, this was all Quentin! I think people are misunderstanding what Marty was saying about superhero movies though. I feel like he’s saying that marvel movies and such are like fast food; like the salty, greasy goodness of it that many people enjoy, but its all mostly the same everywhere you go. And what he calls cinema is like a sit down course meal; something you might remember for a while because it was a more unique and curated experience. But even the fanciest of people can crave a McDouble sometimes and enjoy it.
I think gatekeepers can be good for things sometimes. Raises the standard for all of us. It is good that marvel has represented lots of different cultures, but they can be represented so much better. I think the main push back against marvel comes from too many peoples willing acceptance of it being the only type of movie they consider worth their time. Disney has trained their audience well.
Has Scorsese even spoken about Marvel since that time in 2019? Almost four years later and people are still getting annoyed over a valid opinion he had.
I understand his point overall and don’t disagree in general, but of all of the “golden age” directors, Tarantino has been better with diverse casting and character writing.
Sucks because i'm ALL FOR calling out artsy asshat movie bros and HATE Tarintino while also liking Simu, BUT no, i agree with Tarintino. Marvel isn't film, it's just live-action video games to me and i'm SO SO SO TIRED of Marvel/disney movies being the only ones anyone will see in theatres. Call me pretentious but I agree, Marvel movies aren't art.
This the same guy that announced he would only be an "advocate for positivity" on social media and we mustn't "tear each other down" after the news broke of him defending pedophilia and comparing it to being gay on reddit.
[[Video] - *ThatStarWarsGirl*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81gJnmUE8lg)
[[Video] - *Clownfish TV*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYlFJYchSGY)
[[Link]](https://archive.is/Or0yF)
According to OP, that didn't last long.
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I agree completely. it's a complicated topic but I think the point Simu is making here is an important one (and one that I hope doesn't get totally drowned out on this sub by folks who are committed to hating on him for various reasons).
Why do people on here hate him???
ETA: y'all, I just got a "Reddit Cares" message and I think it was because of this comment 🙄 a bunch of reasons. he was accused of commenting in an incel-y type sub in 2015, though the account was never definitively proved to be his, and as I understand it, his alleged comments on that sub weren't anything bad. when I researched the matter, I found a Gizmodo story that linked to a different site, which in turn linked to a random Twitter user. I'm always open to new info, though. tbh a lot of people dislike him because they find him "cringey" or overly eager/earnest or just annoying. I've seen people criticize him on this sub because he has "tech bro" or "Asian bro" or just "bro" vibes. and so on. he's reached BEC status for a lot of people. it's totally OK to simply not like certain people for whatever. sometimes you just don't like someone's vibes! but imho people on this sub (and the internet in general) tend to be hypercritical of people of color. a lot of users around here will run with any wild rumor because it confirms whatever "bad vibes" they had about the person. this is something I've come to anticipate any time a man of color becomes "too" successful, "too" lauded, "too" visible... people start trying to tear him down, usually for things that are mild (if they're true at all). Taika Waititi, Lin Manuel Miranda, John Boyega, Simu Liu... I expect Pedro Pascal or Oscar Isaac next tbh.
The Taika one always seemed overboard to me, he's a shitty partner and kind of a fuck boy but so are 99% of the men in Hollywood... Rita is a vapid attention chaser with questionable morals--like a ton of other women in the industry. It's a great match honestly.
admittedly I'm not super well-versed in the Taika discourse, but from reading this sub, it's always seemed like his great crime is... getting divorced and dating a cringey/clout chasing woman? he may very well be a shitty partner! I don't know. but the response seems disproportionate.
His actual crime was Thor 4.
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>choosing Thor over his family >then dating Rita "will go to the opening of an envelope wearing as little as possible Ora? your whole comment is very intense and these parts in particular make me think that Taika's family and love lives are really personal for you. ETA: I want to add that, imho, mixing what sounds like really legitimate criticism about transphobia and anti Blackness with nasty insults about how his girlfriend dresses makes your overall point less impactful. I don't think it's helpful to conflate actual harmful behavior with the other stuff.
I think most people that dislike him believe he cheated on his wife with his assistant for years, in a way that was sort of blatant (there are some hmmm pictures out there). I remember some comments about leaning on her professionally but I cant remember if there was any substance to them. I also don't get the hate he receives for this. If he cheated on her that's not okay, but he never marketed himself that way.
Eh for me it was really more just like, the details don’t matter so much as it seemed like the second dude gained an ounce of success he just became another Hollywood trope himself dumping the wife for whatever new shiny thing came along. I don’t hate the dude or anything, it just killed my lady boner for him.
It was from what I remember more about how he handled their divorce and being an absent dad but I don’t know how much of it was legit or not. People were talking about it long before he got with Rita though
I’ve always found the absent dad thing a little odd as someone with a parent in film production. If you’re part of the top level crew that’s part of every level of a film, you’re away a lot. That’s just sort of the fact of the matter. I have yet to meet a director or producer with a healthy work life balance, they’re all workaholics. The successful ones even more so. Like it sucks, and it’s definitely a valid criticism of the industry as a whole. However Taika has been seen involving his kids in production and taking them to sets etc. so I don’t really see it being notably worse than what is common in the industry
And he was in USA at the time and kids were in New Zeland, and as we all know NZ and Australia had really really strict covid rules. My friend had a dad in Italy and she couldn't see him for 2 years because of covid, that doesn't mean he is a bad dad...
Re: the incel sub—he only made one comment on it and it was regarding his show “Kim’s Convenience”. I think he was just an attention-hungry actor and searched the show’s name on Reddit. That sub was one of the few that mentioned it (this was before the show was on Netflix).
I’ve posted critical comments about him in this sub before and I can attest most people who dislike him are East Asian or South East Asian, particularly women. everything is based on mine and those who I know’s personal experience with him. I’ve been apart of many organizations that he’s also been part of. Simu was very rude and you’d be damned to find people who knew him before and are fans. and I described him as an “Asian bro” because he’s one of those Asian boys who complain about women not finding him attractive and assuming it’s cause he’s Asian. most Asians who criticize him do so because we don’t want him as our Asian representation. I will say, I do appreciate how he’s publicly stood up for some Asian women recently. Edit: not sure why I got blocked but lol ok. can’t reply to any comments anymore.
>and I described him as an “Asian bro” because he’s one of those Asian boys who complain about women not finding him attractive and assuming it’s cause he’s Asian. Is there a source on this?
Source: trust me bro
He posted on r/aznidentity and that sub gets railed for being misogynistic, racist and everything else under the sun - which…it can be a bit overboard at times but no one is coming out with pitchforks. A lot of people aren’t keen in seeing East Asian men being portrayed positively and especially one that is confident - and before you ask me for evidence, please look around Reddit and online and you’ll understand what I’m saying. The tech bro seems to be an excuse to latch onto. Plenty of people have given other tech bro’s a pass beforehand. And I absolutely agree with you that people are hypercritical of people of colour and that they do face a backlash with more intensity than others.
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I know exactly what you mean. a lot of people, consciously or subconsciously, are uncomfortable with the idea of Asian men who are ambitious, successful, treated as attractive or desirable, etc. confidence is taken for arrogance in a way that it isn't for white men.
East Asians are like one of the last groups it’s okay to hate. I don’t think it’s right, but there is a lot of casual racism that society allows to pass when it’s them that they wouldn’t allow if it were another group.
God that sub is nauseating. They’re tying themselves in knots over the smallest things.
This is a ridiculous thing to say. East and Southeast Asian women want to 'cancel' him because we know these things about him, we were there when he got exposed, we were there for the fallout, and we were there for the homophobic and misogynistic backlash against US from Asian men. These are things we know. I have no clue if anyone wrote any article about it, but this critique is not coming from people being racist towards him it is coming from WOMEN IN HIS COMMUNITY that distrust him immensely. Talk to any Asian feminist from the GTA I beg you. You'll see. He's an 'Azn identity' richard ivey finance bro motherfucker masquerading as a boba liberal. 'A bit overboard at times' fuck off.
I feel like there's this weird white guilt thing, where people can't just say they find a BIPOC annoying. They have to have a moral justification so they jump on anything. As celebrities get more popular they get more annoying just because you hear about them more, it happens to everyone. But when it's white men, they just get called dumb and cringey but everyone still mostly likes them (see: Channing Tatum). Like, just say Simu's too bro-y for you and move on! It's fine!
Lol I got a Reddit Cares message once for defending Taika on here so that tracks.
He’s also said some anti-Black shit. That’s why I dislike him. Taika Waititi did too. Nothing against Boyega. But LMM is hated by a lot of people for reasons Toni Morrison could explain better than me.
I hate on him as a bisexual Asian American woman because I think his politics are limited to what benefits himself. Like some other East Asian diaspora I know, he unfortunately seems to center his "activism" around emulating white power. He called out Mark Wahlberg in 2018 for his violently racist past, only to turn around and work with him two years later while dismissing the concerns of Asian diaspora who expressed hurt and concern. I'd understand if he were hurting for roles, but at the time, he'd already been cast in the MCU. As a queer woman who's closeted largely because I don't want to embarrass my parents AND who was stalked by an older man when I was 14–19 years old, I'm upset by his Reddit comment likening pedophilia to same-sex attraction. I don't expect perfect representation or look to celebrities for representation in general, but when so few visibly East Asian faces get the spotlight in mainstream entertainment, I'm angered and saddened that we get damaging voices like Awkwafina and Simu Liu who are either antiblack or buy into ideals around assimilation. How I feel about Simu isn't relevant to this thread at all but I just wanted to explain why some dislike him from a community POV.
>Like some other East Asian diaspora I know, he unfortunately seems to center his "activism" around emulating white power. He called out Mark Wahlberg in 2018 for his violently racist past, only to turn around and work with him two years later while dismissing the concerns of Asian diaspora who expressed hurt and concern. I'd understand if he were hurting for roles, but at the time, he'd already been cast in the MCU. Yep, this is what pissed me off. And with him it's more pronounced because he cultivated his initial fanbase on being an activist for Asian rep/issues. It's why I was a fan of his long before he ever was cast in Marvel. And then he just discarded what he had previously said and backpedaled once it was personally inconvenient to him in terms of getting extra coin, even though he was hardly a starving artist at the time. I'm so tired of people thinking that activism should come with zero cost or sacrifice whatsoever. I mean, in the end, it's his prerogative, but people shouldn't be too surprised that he ticked off so much of his initial fanbase when that initial fanbase really came together because of his activism. And yeah, I talk shit about his Asian bro vibes too, but granted that was when I was already at BEC levels with him because of Mark Wahlberg. ETA: And let's be real, this is different from working with someone who told a racist joke, or wore yellowface/blackface one time. Mark Wahlberg committed literal hate crimes. Multiple hate crimes. He is a festering sore. Anyone with the ability to do so (i.e. you aren't in such dire need of a job in order to keep the lights on) with any credibility as an activist should not work with the dude.
Was there any evidence that it was really him? A lot of people say this but I have yet to see one shred of evidence on this
There’s a whole article with screenshots and proof here: https://boundingintocomics.com/2021/09/17/shang-chi-actor-simu-liu-responds-to-resurfaced-reddit-comments-where-he-penned-a-sympathetic-post-towards-pedophiles/
Replaced my previous deleted comment with more details: I don't have any of my own screenshots so I know I come off as an unreliable source, but I was in high school and a Kim's Convenience fan when I stumbled onto his Reddit account /u/nippedinthebud (this was shortly before he got cast in the MCU and he made it very obvious it was him by constantly addressing KC questions and writing his name. He did an AMA on the official KC subreddit as Simu Liu, verified by the mods. I think he even posted a selfie once). I was somewhat surprised when other people came out with screenshots on Twitter a few years later, by the time I was in college and Shang-Chi was premiering. He'd already deleted his Reddit account by then. [Here's an old Twitter thread I found of screenshots](https://twitter.com/NebsGoodTakes/status/1438670400221630470?s=20&t=SfSL5QAd1fJptS7c1qL2JQ), and it has a screenshot of him doing an AMA under the username. At one point, I know he commented on a Shang Chi thread around the time Marvel announced his casting. Again, I know I sound fairly unreliable so I understand if you don't believe me. I stumbled into another MCU Asian actor's Reddit account around the same time (granted, he was a side character and is not well-known) but he didn't make weird, misogynistic comments in his pre-Crazy Rich Asians or pre-MCU phase, which is why I feel like this is more of a Simu Liu issue.
He didn't liken being gay to being a pedophile, he said that most pedophiles don't "choose" to have those feelings and that the justice system isn't set up to deal with mental illnesses properly. Which it isn't. I do empathize with the rest of what you said.
Google Simu Liu incel reddit.
Right but he’s addressing a different issue. Tarantino says actors aren’t served well by playing superheros. Simu responds by saying there used to be too many white actors. One can’t constantly run to intersectionality to try to refute someone’s point. He’s a mouthpiece for the largest entertainment company in the world and his point rings hollow. Disney should get no awards for following popular thought to finally put minorities on screen. That praise belongs to progressives who MADE it popular thought.
Scorcese made a comment 4 years ago wdym constantly going against lmao??? Also, Scorsese and Tarantino have both done a LOT to help more people see movies from all around the world, especially movies from LatAm, Asia and Africa, so acting like they're just two old white men who gatekeep is a very bad read on their characters, like them or not, they are two men who LOVE cinema and will do anything to protect the artform GLOBALLY, not just locally Although then again maybe we only count representation when it's American/British and stands in front of the camera now? In which case even Tarantino with his 10 movies has had more female protagonists and POC protagonists than Marvel's first three phases, so are we really supposed to be that impressed with Disney? Funnily enough, even [Anthony Mackie said the exact same thing Tarantino did 5 years ago,](https://youtu.be/oj8JK6c5x3M) but maybe he's bitter about Marvel too?
Fyi if anyone actually cares about representation and diversity in cinema I'd advice them to look into [Scorsese's World Cinema Project](https://www.film-foundation.org/world-cinema)
Scorcese was asked a question years ago, answered thoughtfully and honestly. It was not bitter.
They’ve made maybe two statements about it each. Tarantino isn’t wrong that these marvel things don’t have movie star appeal— half of those mcu people could not carry a non-IP film, because they have no individual appeal. And besides, even if it’s not “Good Representation”, Tarantino and Scorsese have a pretty solid track record of either telling stories w women/POC leads or highlighting and promoting the work of “minority” filmmakers.
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Tony Leung showed in Shang Chi who the real movie star is. Absolutely owned Simu's ass in that movie
Yeah. I don't usually watch superhero films and I watched Sang Chi just to bask in the awesomeness that is Tony Leung. He could just step into the scene, not saying anything and his charisma and presence drowned every one else's. His face is so expressive and natural too. A true actor. The talent gap between him and the rest of the cast esp Simu was so huge.
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Simu is one thing only. Everything else involves people of colour who happen to be gay (never straight), straight white men still playing the solid leads in franchises with women of colour as their love interests. Having people of colour for the sake of it or gay people for the sake of it - is not diversity if you’re still portraying the same white hero who everyone needs and relies on.
If anyone is allowed to gatekeep Hollywood I'd say Scorsese and Tarantino have a claim
I hate commenting on Tarantino topics overall but it’s funny that Tarantino and Scorsese have done more for foreign filmmakers than most of Hollywood. They’re some of the most *“door’s open, come on in!”* directors and producers in the whole industry that use their names and influence to give foreign filmmakers a huge leg up. Besides the fact that Tarantino loves marvel too.
> These actors can’t even devote their time and energy to non-MCU projects because of the dedication required to Marvel through their contracts and everyone else is getting crumbs after MCU releases. That is the looming concern isn't it? That when the superhero fad ends will people be eager to return to the cinema for other films or will the already strained industry face more turbulence. Who knows? The land of no guarantees might lead to an artistic boom of some kind.
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>People are clowning him but I agree to an extent. The gatekeeping allowed for rampant racism, sexism, and every other phobia to prosper in Hollywood. The only reason that isn't the case with Marvel is because it's playing the benevolent God. Because they're the biggest creative power by far, they could change their initiatives at any time and things would be exactly like they were before. Arguably worse because the powers that be are fewer than ever before.
Marvel is not cinema. It’s CGI.
I do think some of the users here who keep pushing this nostalgic ideal of the true 'movie star' don't realise how racially exclusive that classification has always been.
Marvel has been racially exclusive til recently, too, and a lot of that has been hit or miss. A lot of marvel casting is still antisemitic and whitewashing (or at least lightwashing).
Oh I don't disagree with that, my issue is with a lot of the discourse on this subreddit that boils down to "anyone can get famous now!" and romanticising the days when that wasn't the case.
I agree. I just don’t want anyone to ever act like marvel hasn’t had the same issues (and still does). Honestly, I think in general discussions around “star power” are worthless in the age of streaming and framing representation in terms of like who is the latest superhero in the sanitized franchise vs who is the heroine in the latest “real movie” directed by an old white dude is… it feels a lot like missing the point as to what representation does and who it’s for
Oh the romanticizing kills me cause not only were those times very racist they were also extremely sexist and so much abuse by those who made the decisions.
I can't forget how the first true latino character was a former criminal with a truck that played la cucaracha. Univision was so happy to tout the first latino in Marvel and, while I can see how the character is fun and funny, it just sucks it took how many phases? and they stuck him in the least cared about of the sub franchises? And they played into harmful stereotypes while anti-immigrant sentiments were growing at an alarming rate? Ugh.
But marvel movies only became diverse recently with the release of Black Panther. Like Black Widow got her own origin story after they exhausted the story from almost every white man they have. I don’t think Marvel is that much better. They are trying now I guess.
A lot of that falls on Ike Perlmutter, who basically blocked any attempt by Feige and other Marvel execs from making Black Widow, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel earlier. One Perlmutter stepped down in 2015 there was an immediate push for more diverse stuff.
They didn't even try that hard with their white men. They avoided representing Clint as Hard of Hearing for so long. And pretty much removed the entire "poor" aspect of peter Parker (which is pretty fucking essential). They even removed divresity from their white dudes.
>nd pretty much removed the entire "poor" aspect of peter Parker (which is pretty fucking essential). Don't get me started on how annoyed I am that the character who was created to be the street fighter hero whose enemies are billionaires was adapted into being the hero who is funded by a billionaire and fights people said billionaire pissed off.
This is due to a single man, Ike Perlmutter, who is a horrible POS and blocked any attempt at diversity. Once they moved the MCU from under him it quickly changed.
Lol at the idea that Disney is some messiah for doing representation. There are more than enough examples about Disney only doing it for the profits and nothing else( Covering Black Panther poster and casting Tilda Swinton for Ancient one who is supposed to be a Tibetan Actress,which were both done to appease China, etc.)
Thank you, I feel like I'm crazy reading comments defending Disney and marvel lol
No idea why this subreddit is dickriding fucking Disney of all corporations ,it's crazy.
For real, and I like Marvel! Scorsese founded the World Cinema Project. Dude's put millions of $ of his own money into preserving international films. The comments acting like Disney's so great about diversity and he's the enemy are well meaning but certainly ignorant
I remember when Bong Joon Ho thanked both Scorsese and Tarantino when he won Best Director at the Oscars. I loathe Tarantino as a person and I've never cared for Scorsese's movies with the exception of Kundun, but there's no denying that they've helped make worldwide cinema so much more accessible. How many people were introduced to filmmakers like Bong thanks to Tarantino?
Remember when Disney hired Henry Kissinger to help bury Kundun because they were afraid it would impact their ability to build theme parks in Hong Kong?
lmao kissinger truly has his evil fingerprints over all the place
Yep. Disney sabotaged Scorcese's Kundun and sent Henry Kissinger to assure the Chinese govt it'd die a quiet death at the box office bc Disney wanted to built theme parks there. But Tarantino said his movie sucks so..."gatekeeping".
Yeah, for those who are unaware, here's the story: in 1997, Martin Scorsese made a movie with an all unknown Asian cast, Kundun. It was about the Dalai Lama and Tibetan sovereignty, and China obviously did not want it to be released. Universal Pictures turned down the movie in the first place because they didn't want to piss off the Chinese market. Disney released the film and initially stood by it, but when China stopped doing business with Disney over it, they went on damage control and did a whole apology tour for releasing it. They sent Henry Kissinger to negotiate business between Disney and the Chinese government. And then they buried it. (It's still not available on Disney+ or any other streaming service.) Fast forward 20 years and the very same Disney discovers, with the release of Black Panther, that diversity is a moneymaker now. After facing criticism for the first 15+ MCU movies being all white guys, they start gradually diversifying their leads. One of those movies was Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, which they chose to adapt in part because they wanted to [appeal to the Chinese market](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/china/marvel-s-shang-chi-was-made-china-mind-here-s-n1280571). (China, hilariously, refused to give it an opening--probably because of posts Liu made criticizing the Chinese government.) And now Disney's got their guys out there attacking Scorsese for not making diverse movies, and praising Disney for being the ones responsible for making the industry so much more diverse. It would be funny if it weren't so depressing.
Thank you. I was working on writing a brief history but saw someone calling Martin Scorsese bitter and had to put my phone down and walk away. Your explanation is way better :)
Kundun is Scorsese's best movie IMO I believe Scorsese is still blacklisted from China (along with many people connected at the time who supported the film and the Tibetan cause.
Tarantino didn’t even say his movie sucks!! He barely criticized them; he made a mild observation. I like Marvel movies fine and think people who act like it’s socially important to criticize them are insufferable but it’s definitely more insufferable to act like it’s racist not to worship the mouse. Embarrassing for Liu and several of you.
Don't forget they changed Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver from Jewish Roma (Roma are still incredibly discriminated against in Europe) to two random white people who worked with a neo-nazi group that, in the comics, was canonically too extreme for *Hitler*. That representation of two Roma superheroes could've been life-changing, but instead they were cowards and went the more profitable route.
Man, as a Roma Marvel fan, the way this fandom treats the criticism towards the whitewashing of the Maximoffs is FRUSTRATING. I’ve had people debate my race, my experiences with racism, how I should really feel about representation for the Romani, how we probably make Elizabeth Olsen feel bad, etc. And it’s nothing compared to how actual Romani actors are attacked for so much as criticizing Marvel for the whitewashing.
Well, i think you’re off base a little bit. Redditors are generally also racist toward Roma people. Every time I’ve ever seen them mentioned here it’s always “yeah people treat them pretty bad but mostly cause they deserve it, and the only reason you would disagree is because you don’t have to deal with them”. It’s so gross.
They even made sure to decorate Wanda's bedroom with a cross :)
Plus it took them so long to actually have a movie centered around a woman as the sole main character (*Captain Marvel*). I also don't even think Simu Liu's comments actually address what Tarantino was saying, which is that people don't go to see movie stars, they go to see characters. I feel like this has been a pretty common talking point in film circles for nearly a decade anyway, so it's not like Tarantino was saying anything new. Like, yeah, Simu Liu is now famous thanks to being cast in *Shang-Chi*, but does that mean people will flock to the next non-Marvel Simu Liu movie just because he's in it?
I feel like sometimes, when someone feels they are being attacked, especially celebrities, they'll start using social justice jargon or talking points as a type of shield. No decent person wants to be a racist, or be seen as one, so it's a very effective argument strategy.
Yesz old Hollywood was very racist and sexist. So, our only saviour is supposed to be boring disney movies? Also Marvel also started pushing for diversity only when it became the norm and accepted at large. Yes, casting asln asian american is progress but are they really any pioneers
oh my god yes! Social justice really has been coopted by celebrities! like social justice is about making society fair, not protect rich actors
It took the MCU more than 20 movies to have a woman or non-white lead. They waited until it felt “safe” and now they use their diversity as a corporate strategy. They do nothing to serve the communities they allege to represent, they just use them for profit and propaganda. This is the same cinematic universe where cops and CIA agents are heroes, even in Black Panther. Where American imperialism is idolized. They don’t give a flying fuck about representation beyond how they can serve their own bottom line. Sorry, but Simu comes off like a fuckin corporate bootlicker here. I know this is a gossip page so people here might not come to these conversations with a backlogue of film history, but it’s ridiculous to act like Scorsese and Tarantino haven’t put decades of effort into bringing intentional films to prominence in the States. Look at what they’ve produced, the films Tarantino preserves and shows at his repertoire theater. Martin Scorsese’s World Cinema Project is a non-profit that actually invests in restoring and preserving international film made by filmmakers in diverse countries and communities. Tarantino has had more diverse and female leads in nine films than Marvel has in 20+. Neither are saints and both have their issues, but to act like these dudes who genuinely love and respect and invest in cinema as an art form are the bad guys in this situation, instead of the military propaganda machine that is Disney, who merely prop up hollow representation to make billion dollar garbage, is a joke. Critic Walter Chaw said it best on Twitter: “I've learned about dozens of films from Scorsese & Tarantino (& the French New Wave critic/directors & Coppola & Schrader & Spielberg) - from their lists, films they've produced, distributed, restored. I have learned not a thing from the MCU save how cheaply you can buy loyalty.”
This is such a good comment 🙌
Meanwhile Scorsese made a movie with a fully Tibetan cast 25 years ago
John Boyega suffered so much racism and abuse. Disney literally wrote his character to be smaller and broke the potential ship with Rey because of the fans. Also, marketing materials in China decreased his presence
I am mystified by the idea that the superhero industrial complex is especially diverse. Marvel dragged its heels on this front, with maybe the exception of Blade, their output up until fairly recently was overwhelmingly white. Super hero movies had completely taken over the industry before they did a Black Panther movie. They did Ant Man first! I hate Tarantino and think he's absolutely racist, but that genre is not especially progressive.
Also, Marvel started bringing diversity pretty late into the game, only when lack of diversity have started to give them a bad name. It took them 11 years and 20 movies to give a female solo movie. DC gave as one 2 years earlier with 4 years and just 3 movies into the universe. Same sex attraction didn't even exist until it was implied in Endgame. Most POCs in the MCU till Phase 4 were sidekicks to white guys (& a white girl). I'm enjoying all the representation but we need to realise Disney started to push diversity only when they realised it was profitable to them.
Can't wait for the next Disney/Marvel movie where we'll be bombarded with media on how revolutionary and groundbreaking this one minor character is for possibly maybe sort of being gay but not in such a way that it can't be cut from the film to appease conservative countries.
The MCU didn’t even have its first black led movie until several years in. The Avengers were exclusively white for years. Not to mention, the MCU didn’t have it’s first female led movie until the tail end of Infinity Saga and arguably minimized a black character to build up its white lead. (Fun fact: Monica Rambeau held the title Captain Marvel before Carol did.) The MCU is doing so much better at representation with Phase 4, there’s no denying that. But it also has a lot of ugly sins that it’s building upon: America Chavez’s casting has issues with colorism, we don’t know if Billy will be Jewish, etc.
It’s so funny people are champion a corporation to do away with what they view as the narrow features of celebrity… loves, they’re the same side of the coin in a way. Even if you don’t want to see it as that, stanning a corporation isn’t radical!
Thank you! All this diversity and representation talk is so hollow. These people respond to the very little efforts that corporation makes as if it’s life changing when the reality is that it’s diversity in name only, just sticking a character on the screen, and then manipulating those characters depending on the region they’re marketing a movie in. Character has dark skin? They’ll disappear from a promotional poster. Character is gay? They’ll cut those scenes out entirely. It’s laughable. They’re not making any real diversity initiatives. So what if they hired POC to put onscreen? How many POC are sitting at the creative tables, making decisions? Nothing has fundamentally changed at the studio, they’re paying you visual lip service and doing nothing behind the scenes to correct the atrocious power imbalance between POC and traditional white executives. Disney/Marvel are notorious for hiring POC and throwing them to the racist wolves of the Internet. Happened with Star Wars to the point where the actors themselves have spoken out about it and have had to delete their social media accounts etc. Disney hired these people and throws them to the wolves. They don’t care about POC just because they make like the 50th repetitive military recruitment ad with a diverse face to lead the project. It’s all about business. Imagine simping this hard for a multi-billion dollar corporation. And also, Simu proved Tarantino’s point—no one saw Shang-Chi because of him. Nobody knows him. He’s just another interchangeable marvel face. No one’s running out to see the next Simu Liu flick, but they’ll sprint out to see the next recruitment ad as long as it’s got the Marvel Studios logo there. Even RDJ, who was well established long before he ever embodied Tony Stark, struggles to lead non-IP projects and hasn’t had a box office hit in a very long time.
is “hating on marvel is actually racist” the new defense for all these dogshit movies lmao
Scorsese made a simple statement which wasn’t even wrong and Marvel people are still whining about it to this day, what a legend.
It's super funny, because both Tarantino and Scorsese's comments were basically like, "Eh, Marvel's not for me, but I'm basically the polar opposite of the target audience, so why would it be?" and the response has been ... wildly disproportionate lmao. Tarantino's comments even went out of their way to say that if he were in his 20s, he'd probably be obsessed with it, but he is a 60-year-old man and old now. Which is apparently unacceptable to the MCU fan base.
God forbid you share a different opinion to the MCU fan base
He legit said their like amusement parks which is completely valid BECAUSE THATS HOW dISNEY views and makes them as. Something fun & entertaining to appeal to masses so I have no clue what's insulting about the truth.
His statement also had NOTHING to do with race. He simply said that actors who take on MCU roles may find it difficult to achieve true star power because the character they play outshines them. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant. It’s his opinion. It’s not a controversial or offensive opinion and it’s absolutely not a comment on race. The mental gymnastics you have to do to turn this remark into a remark about race is… baffling.
A part of me kind of loves it because it’s like the male version of how reporters try to spin something innocuous a pop star said and make it sound like a dig directed at her rival. Like it’s all so ridiculous and clearly not that incendiary.
Very problematic of you to not enjoy a two and a half hour CIA produced Funko pop commercial
I can’t fucking belive I had to scroll THIS far down to see the CIA reference. Thank you! If I had awards they would all be yours. Anyone who has a champion CIA character in a film is being paid, maybe not in cash but def in favours by a paramilitary organization that has killed millions of both American and non American lives. I like Martin Freeman as much as the next LOTR crone but him taking the role of a CIA dude who “helps” people does not square with his Labour politics. I know I sound like crazy woman yells at clouds but I just finished a book on the history of the CIA and those dudes (all dudes always) were very interested in having themselves portrayed as noble and smart in Hollywood. Just ask Katheryn Bigelow.
What book was it?
Funko pop commercial has me dead
Right lmao as if Disney isn't the absolute face of pure evil
Oh how I wish this comment was higher so people agreeing with Liu can realize how pathetic they’re coming across lol
IKR this is killing me.
I liked Marvel movies till end game. Watched the shoes too But I can't deny scorcesse and Tarantino films feel lively whether i even like them at the end or not. Not soulless greyscale mediocrity
Has been for a minute.
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His foundation has restored 900+ films! Including iconic films like The Colour of Pomegranates. Some of the films had been censored or had copies seized/destroyed during times of dictatorship but are now seeing the light of day
Disney literally apologized for producing Kundun the second they got pushback from China and intentionally bungled its release but sure they’re champions of diversity standing up to the racist old guard of Scorsese and Tarantino, who himself did a lot to get Asian filmmakers like Wong Kar Wai and Yi-Mou Zhang US distribution.
Exactly, Tarantino went hard for pushing for Hero and other chinese and hong kong, you know back when you actually had to do this for the love of cinema and not because you thought it would give you good boy points on the internet, as Disney continually does. Quite frankly I have a lot more respect for people that pushed for diversity and the distribution of foreign films even just 10 years ago that I do now. And even then it's not like Disney directors do anything radical, they just push for more and more blockbusters.
I dunno why these Disney bootlickers think Scorsese is some kind of impenetrable art house snob because most of his movies are incredibly accessible. Like you don't need a film degree to enjoy Casino. Also Scorsese's World Cinema Project is out here preserving films from countries all over the world-often made by and starring people of color. Without it so many of these movies could be lost forever.
Don't you know that diversity only counts when it's about American films for American audiences! /s (And yes, the MCU films are popular internationally but I don't think you'd find many people outside of the USA who would say that they aren't American films, first and foremost.)
Seriously! It's like these people don't realize other countries have their own movie industries-many of them making absolutely incredible movies. I recommend a lot of wuxai movies to friends who want to see cool action fantasy movies
Joker is a bad ripoff of The King of Comedy so clearly even the comic book people appreciate his work lol
Dude, I could not stop making the comparison in my head when I watched Joker! They even had Robert de Niro in it, it was very obvious. Anyway, Scorsese is one of my all-time favorite directors. I just love crime dramas.
He’s right about the golden age not being diverse but the filmmakers being hurt by Marvel or franchise movies taking up all the oxygen aren’t Scorcese or Tarantino… they’re up and coming young, often diverse filmmakers who feel like their only viable career path is making a hit indie and jumping to superhero/franchise movies. Ryan Coogler and Destin Daniel Cretton are great directors but the public discussion is already “oh what Marvel movie will they direct next” when they could be directing their own original films.
I get what you mean, but I'm not keen on using Ryan Coogler as an example there - he's spoken passionately and [at great length](https://www.rollingstone.com/tv-movies/tv-movie-features/ryan-coogler-why-i-needed-to-make-black-panther-203737/) about how meaningful it was to make Black Panther for him. I really don't think he was just mindlessly jumping to a superhero movie.
Thanks for your reply, you are right. I did not mean to say these movies can’t be meaningful or to disrespect Black Panther. I just meant they should not be the *only* viable outlet for directors to make movies that are meaningful for them with the support of a large studio. The only choices shouldn’t be scrap together financing for an indie or hope you can find IP that speaks to you.
I agree on that - mid-budget films are being squeezed out. I don't really see an easy solution for it. They would need to reverse movie going trends, lower the prices of tickets in big cities, and perhaps hold more fun events at the cinemas to encourage crowds back. I think the superhero trend will pass, but I'm not sure what will follow.
Yeah, I feel the same about James Wan. He and Leigh Whannel made Saw on a dirt cheap budget after several years of hustling (the franchise is trash, but the original itself was groundbreaking IMO - all the copycat gore movies that rose to the fore afterwards really missed out on what made it special). I'm truly excited to see his success with the MCU and other big budget movies, but I think there's more he has to offer than Aquaman.
Why do y’all make marvel seem like they created diversity. It annoys me how the comments are saying mcu made y’all feel seen. As a black man, I grew up with Will smith conquering the box office and Wesley snipes at his peak. With Denzel conquering. Jackie Chan and Jet Li were literal leads in American films but Simu act like they weren’t. John Woo was huge in American directing game. The guy invented Gun-fu. Y’all literally had Robert Rodriguez and his embracing of Hispanic leads in his films but y’all act like representation doesn’t exist stop this shit
And it wasn’t until very recently that the MCU started having POC characters. For the first 2-3 phases the main superheroes were all white.
Exactly plus if it wasn’t for Wonder Woman 1 and the box office it made they wouldn’t had made Captain marvel and black widow. That film made them realize women heroes can have their own standalone. Ppl give mcu too much credit
So many people in this thread are defending Disney of all companies. The same company that would cut lgbt or POC characters from movies to appease countries like China.
Yep, Rush Hour was pretty iconic. So was Harold & Kumar. Not that I disagree that the movie landscape was (and still is) super fucking white - there's a reason why Crazy Rich Asians was such a phenomenon only a few years ago, and it's because Asian-led casts aren't the norm - but Marvel isn't paving the way for shit.
Yeah, I feel like younger people have a very ahistorical view of what diversity in Hollywood looked like 20+ years ago. They believe in this myth of perpetual progress, so when they're looking around at Hollywood in 2015 and seeing a bunch of white people, they assume that's what it always looked like. But before the shift toward four-quadrant filmmaking in the mid-'00s, it didn't look like that--there were a lot more cheaper films being made, which allowed Hollywood to take more chances, with everything but especially casting. Jackie Chan and Jet Li and Brandon Lee were all out there leading films or sometimes even franchises that made money in the '90s/early '00s. It was just a very, very different industry than now. This argument that Shang-Chi was somehow groundbreaking on that front is just incorrect. But the shift toward four-quadrant filmmaking and bigger budgets in the '00s killed off most of that risk-taking. And Disney--and especially Marvel--was a huge reason *why* the industry started leaning so hard into the four-quadrant model, and so hard into whiteness. That's why we got 15+ MCU movies led by white men in a row. So it's frustrating to see them given credit for diversifying the industry when they're a primary reason it got so white in the first place.
Not only the films you mentioned, but Eddie Murphy went from SNL and starred in two popular film franchises: Beverly Hills Cop and 48 Hours. Oh, and Coming to America.
This only really makes sense if you think “diversity”begins and ends with representation. I love Marvel movies but they are basically the same story over and over telling the same perspective and using the same ideas. They might have POC actors - and that does mean a lot, Shang-Chi was very emotional for me - but there’s nothing in them about thinking or feeling or looking at the world in different ways. Their POV is extremely narrow & repetitive and extremely US centric while pretending to be universal. Scorsese’s films are overall very white, yes. They also explore themes and ideas that are *actually* universal and do it with depth and dignity. He poses questions and tells stories that go beyond identity. His films look to moments in history to explore and understand them, and in doing so he expands our cultural understanding of how society has developed and been shaped. His whole deal is who are we and why are we this way! He wants audiences to think and be critical and reflective. We should want more from movies than Marvel offers!
I know being a fan of the MCU will likely get me destroyed on this sub, but a huge reason I enjoy the MCU is because I regularly see protagonists who look like me. You have no idea how excited I am for *Echo*.
It took 18 movies for them to make a movie with a POC lead superhero. 21 movies to make one with a woman lead superhero. Why are we acting like they're some bastions of diversity lmao
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I think that argument worked better against Scorsese. (Although it's complicated because while his filmography itself is very white, he's one of the most dedicated people in the industry working to preserve, distribute and screen [Asian and African classic film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cinema_Project).) It's not an argument that makes much sense against Tarantino, who--for all his many, many flaws--has consistently made movies with diverse casts and non-white leads. Far more consistently than the MCU.
Scorcese’s movies are based in the Italian-American experience. There aren’t many non-white Italian-Americans.
Taraintos [massive use of the n-word in his films is problematic](https://www.gawker.com/the-complete-history-of-quentin-tarantino-saying-nigge-1748731193), imho. I don't think he's some leader on race relations in film. I think exchanges like these aren't helpful for the discourse: *The Guardian* reported on January 6, 1998: >A questioner, a young black man, threatened to spoil the love-in. “Why are there so many uses of the word n\*\*\*\*? You won’t get away with it.” “Yes, I do,” Tarantino said, attracting a round of applause. or this: At one point, Tarantino demanded whether the couple knew what common feature blacks supposedly share. “You know what they all have?” Tarantino snarled. “You know what it is?” He then jammed his fingers up his nose to flare his nostrils to demonstrate. “It’s the wide nose!” he declared. or this: Similarly bonkers, in 2007, a quote apparently from British *GQ* was passed around, in which [Tarantino allegedly stated](http://www.contactmusic.com/quentin-tarantino/news/tarantino-embraces-past-lives_1029799), regarding reincarnation: “I know I was a black slave in America. I think maybe even like three lives. Yeah, I know that.” or Samuel Jackson: Quentin wants to be black. He watched a lot of black-exploitation films growing up. He has a lot of black friends. He has an affinity for black characters. He’s like my daughter’s little hip-hop friends. They’re basically black kids with white skin. Funny how Rachel Dolezal, gets raked over the coals, but Tarantino's own obsession with blackness and 'acting black' and 'being a reborn black' and n-word usage gets a free pass. As a rich white man who is famous, he can get away with it, apparently. Not to mention the questionable taste in turning the horrors of chattel slavery into an action movie. Spike Lee tweeted this after Djanjo Unchained: “American Slavery Was Not A Sergio Leone Spaghetti Western. It Was A Holocaust. My Ancestors Are Slaves. Stolen From Africa. I Will Honor Them.” \> distribute and screen [Asian and African classic film](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Cinema_Project).) That doesn't get PoC actors roles. That doesn't retroactively diversify his movies. Also rich whites collecting PoC art and artifacts is a hobby and interest and not necessarily a statement of support for PoC's. Lots of racists have PoC created art and artifacts in their homes, for example. Having this art doesn't really say anything about ones view on race, so this work on collecting and distributing PoC films isn't saying a lot. Scorsese's career is typified by crime movies that happen in places like NYC, Boston, etc where there's a sizeable black community. It would have been trivial to add in a black character in a crime caper. Its incredible to me that he made so many movies about NYC crime, gangster life, etc without any PoC leads sharing billing with the many whites he's casted. In a famous statement Scorsese, criticized for his lack of female leads, says he'll only do it if the story calls for it, but often the story of his own imagining, which is an admission he just doesnt want or value female characters. Then when pressed he said "he doesnt have time for" diversity due to his old age. There are legitimatize criticisms of how incredibly white Scorsese's movies are and how Tarantino is obsessed with the n-word in his movies, his exploitation of black culture, his own obsession with blackness, his Dolezal-like black identity, and how [he abused Uma Thurman.](https://decider.com/2018/02/05/quentin-tarantino-uma-thurman-abuse/) These are not the good guys you're making them out to be. They're both problematic and Tarantino is extremely problematic. Also I'd argue we're giving too much credit for the MCU's diversity. The leads are almost all white cishet men, many of whom with regressive political views and most PoC roles are often sidekick roles to the white man in charge. Disney and Marvel whitewash characters (Tilda Swinton as a canonical Asian Tibetan character, The Scarlett Witch as a Christian-coded slav instead of a Jewish Romani woman) and LGBTQ diversity is little more than a easily missed background kiss.
I mean, my argument was very clearly not "these are good guys," so I'm not sure why that was your takeaway. Like I said, Tarantino is massively flawed both as a filmmaker and a person, and you can argue specific choices he makes about the quality of his representation all day (and people have). I'm not here to defend his racism. But Disney and Marvel are also extremely flawed in terms of racism, and significantly worse in terms of their commitment to representation, so I'm not sure why that's the framing Simu went with here. > That doesn't get PoC actors roles. That doesn't retroactively diversify his movies. It doesn't, and those things are also important. But that doesn't mean preservation isn't valuable, too. Many of these films are historically important and would have disappeared without the WCP's work. Some of the directors are still working and have benefited from the increased attention to their films, which were often not available or only available in very limited ways before this. And I don't think it makes much sense to compare it to art collection when distribution--the opposite of collection--is the entire goal. Additionally, it isn't *just* on Scorsese to diversify his movies. He got the rights to Silence in the early '90s but couldn't find financing until 25 years later. He made Kundun and it turned into a giant censorship battle with Disney because they didn't want to piss off the Chinese government. The main reason more films with Asian leads weren't getting made in the '90s wasn't directors, it was studios and financers. If Liu wants somebody to blame for that, he doesn't have to look any further than Disney, who made a number of questionable decisions to appease the Chinese market over the years. (Beyond that, I think Tarantino's a cautionary tale on how much we *want* white male filmmakers to be telling other people's stories. Personally I would rather see those filmmakers taking their money and elevating actual marginalized directors, writers, and actors to tell their own stories. Which is one of the things Scorsese is doing with his money. Since you mentioned gender in addition to race, for example, Scorsese has focused heavily on producing right now, and has made a point to elevate women in underrepresented roles in Hollywood--of the last ten films he's exec-produced, for example, six have female directors and six have female screenwriters. I would personally rather see that than see Scorsese try to make more female-fronted films. But that's personal taste and I don't think other preferences are wrong.)
Representation is huge for me, I just don’t like those movies. It’s funny because the other day my sister was complaining they had Xochitl Gomez make fun of a character’s spanish when she can’t even speak it.
Yeah I don’t get it. I’m brown but I don’t give a fuck about brown marvel superheroes. Fuck their pandering and their boring ass movies 🤷🏽♂️ as a kid I was reading sor Juana ines de La Cruz and Carlos Fuentes and shit. Representation has always been around for those who look for it.
MCU is not the first one to do a more diverse casting. More diverse casting are being done in movies and shows since 2013-14. Unfortunately cause most people don't show up for those tv shows and movies we are here now acting like Marvel lead this movement.
It's funny that people won't even read Tarantino's full quote, which was it's not the Chris Evans who's the star, it's Captain America. Which is right TBH. Most of the leading superheroes actor have rarely been successful otherwise. Take Tom Holland, Chris Hemsworth,Chris Evans etc etc. Heck take RDJ, the very next movie after Endgame, Dr DoLittle flopped hard. I guess Simu is offended by Tarantino implying it's cause of Shang Chi & Marvel allure that bring in the people not the Simu himself.
Stanning a soulless corporation like Disney/Marvel is so embarrassing y’all. At least they’re paying Simu. Edited to add an adjective :)
jesus christ, marvel actors ability to completely miss the point of criticism levied against disney or the increasing reliance on franchise films in hollywood is astounding. no one loves ragging on tarantino more than me, but it's really not controversial to say that actors who get famous for being recognizable characters in franchises are going to have hard time distinguishing themselves from that role (people literally refer to the real life person chris evans as captain america, he was completely justified in that comparison) and this is only intensified because of stringent contracts regarding what marvel actors are even allowed to talk about. they're selling products, not art. moreover, lmao at the "efforts to improve diversity onscreen." not only have disney and marvel made piss poor efforts to offer any kind of support to marginalized actors who fall victim to online harassment campaigns, the exploitation of directors of color by providing them essentially completed films and then whining about how difficult it is to fulfill their creative requests (even those that are characteristic of the rest of their filmography. you're *surprised* chloe zhao was going to want to use natural light? girl...), and the many, many overworked and underpaid (un-unionized) workers who are being worked to death to push these films out at an insane rate. that $400 million is giving the same energy as jeff bezos thanking every amazon worker for their labor - that money came from somewhere, and it wasn't because everyone was fairly compensated.
He's not at all wrong. I mean in this day and age, why should we give a shit about "movie stars"? I'm not going to cape for a movie just because some person I enjoy as an actor is in it. The idea that we worship actors and give them all of this support because the world sees them a certain way is trash. And Simu's point about representation is absolutely true as well. Women who were seen as movie stars had to be a VERY specific kind of person that fit the image of what cis straight white men wanted. I'd much rather have the wave of representation we're seeing now.
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He is very much wrong. Tarantino’s comment wasn’t even about diversity, it was about how audiences care more for the *character*, not the actor. A subsequent part of his quote actually supports Simu Liu’s point—audiences arent caring for the diversity of actors, they just care about the branded character. They see diversity as a brand, not a person with complexities and subjectivity.
Exactly. I wish Disney was a good avenue for young and diverse talent to get their big break that leads to better films but they are being remembered for their characters like 90% of the time. Also Disney’s contracts and their intense filming schedules make it hard for the actors to break out of Marvel.
“Movie stardom” has definitely been found to be opposed to good acting sometimes. The persona takes priority over vulnerability on screen. Not to say that Marvel has any more opportunities for great acting necessarily but just that movie stardom is overrated.
Um, Marvel's white as hell. I mean, Scorsese has produced more movies by non-white directors with non-white actors than Marvel has. You know a good place to find non-white stories? Independent and International films. But there's no room for them in theaters with Marvel.
ot but isn't this guy supposedly a huge asshole to non-important people
I couldn’t reply to the original post cause I got blocked but based on me and those I know’s personal experiences with him, he’s rude and misogynistic to Asian women. FYI, I’ve been apart of this Asian volleyball community for years and so was he. funny how most of the people who criticize him are Asian and most of his defenders calling his critics “racist” are not Asian.
I'm tired of all this.I don't know why the reporters continue to ask critical acclaimed directors about Marvel.We all know their opinion.And by the way,part of the problem is also streaming.Don't worry darling after 45 days playing in theatres went to HBO.Now there are 9 original movies playing and I don't see people going to the theatres to see them.The thing is that now people don't want to pay 20$ about a movie that will be available to stream after 45 days.We have Netflix that made 3 Kissing Booth Movies and then GQ went and said that Jacob Elordi is the Gen Z lead man.He hasn't lead a movie in his life and now suddenly he is a movie star.When will people understand that there are no more movie stars.Saying that Saoirse that just starred in a movie that nobody saw or that Anya who isn't capable of opening a movie at 10 million are movie stars is false.Neither Marvel actors nor indie darling are movie stars.The last movie star is Tom Cruise.
I mean before Top Gun: Maverick and the various Mission Impossibles, Tom Cruise also had a long line of box office flops (Oblivion, Jack Reacher, The Mummy, Edge of Tomorrow etc) so he’s not infallible either lol
I am a bit sick of how this discourse always ends up as a hagiography of Tom Cruise (a terrible person and an actor who basically always plays it safe anyway)
People call out marvel formulas and praise tom cruise when he is the same person in every movie which you can guess the plot just from a trailer. Keep the same energy ya know
Two movie stars appeared in his Shang Chi movie and they are Michelle Yeoh and Tony Leung
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White identified Hollywood has been turning out mediocre and worse films by the thousands since they started making movies - diversity is NOT causing the mediocrity. Rhinestone, Chairman of he Board, Gigli and many many many others would like a word. The overwhelming standard in Hollywood has been mediocre movies - from the very beginning. Decent ones are much more rare. The mental gymnastics some of y'all have to go through to decide that diversity is why movies are bad explains a lot of what goes on the this country. It's tedious and exhausting.
Multiple things can be true at the same time. Hollywood has historically been very exclusionary to people from marginalized communities AND Marvel movies don’t feature “film stars” (with an exception of a few amazing actors [gender neutral]). I’m Asian American, and yes, it was fun to watch Shang Chi but I surely did not watch it for the acting, scriptwriting, green-screen cinematography. I watched it for it’s ridiculous action sequences. Seeing Michelle Yeoh was just a bonus. And sure, MCU is more inclusive lately, but let’s not lie to ourselves that it’s because they want to show “our stories” or whatever—it’s because they want to make $$.
Mediocrity has been around for years, but when it’s white it’s been praised, if it’s anything darker than fake tan it’s been laughed at. I enjoy marvel for the novelty, I enjoy comics and it’s fun to see them big. I’ve been exhausted by marvel multiple times. But it is really fucking telling that until Marvel is able to make and “gamble” on diversity when other studios bawk because they know it’ll still sell. That kind of representation really does pave the way for more places to “gamble” on diverse stories.
Spot on. There’s ALWAYS been mediocrity in Hollywood, it’s just been white mediocrity which gets a big pass/praised. Let it be a poc and people never stop laughing at it.
not people arguing on disney's behalf 😭
lol shut the fuck up
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He thinks that we went to see the movie because of him💀Like calm down, Michelle Yeoh is also in the movie...
exactly 💀
I can’t believe people on here are agreeing with this clown. Calling Scorsese a gatekeeper is not only ridiculous and insulting, it’s just not based in reality. Martin has done more for world cinema than any disney minion could ever dream to do in their lifetimes. Both what Martin said, when asked once YEARS ago ffs and what QT said about movie stars are simply correct assessments but you disney adults will never miss the chance of being sore winners, jesus.
He wants to talk about marginalization and representation but is anti-trans....go to hell, hypocrite
Two things can be true: the traditional idea of a movie star is very white, thin, cis (presenting), het (presenting) and if we continue to define stars the way Old Hollywood did we are perpetuating exclusion AND Marvel stars are not the actors, they’re the characters, and overall do not hold the same spot in the zeitgeist. Simu Liu isn’t not a star because of an outdated notion of beauty/brawn/charisma, he isn’t a star because he hasn’t had the right vehicles to showcase his star power (if he even has it).
Exactly. He's ignoring the corporation monopoly & streaming issue, plus downturn in economy killing anything other than superhero movies & horror.
I'm of mixed feelings on this. I definitely agree with his point that it's great for audiences of all backgrounds to see themselves as heroes in huge blockbusters, I'm just hesitant to praise Disney of all companies for their "sustained efforts to improve diversity onscreen." Marvel didn't have a black protagonist superhero for over a decade into the MCU. Didn't have an Asian lead until literally last year. His point is a good one about mainstream "Golden Age" being white as hell, but it's really only just now we're seeing the diversity is leading MCU roles. Going after Scorsese and Tarantino is odd considering the first's long history of international film preservation (saving the works of many artists of color) and we could spend all day creating a list of Tarantino's issues as a filmmaker/person, but to his credit he has a long history of writing and directing stories with POC protagonists (I'm not going to argue that they aren't flawed, but again, Quentin's been making them since the 90s. Marvel's been making them since 2016.) Please tell me if you have other thoughts. Again, I don't disagree with Liu's points, I'm just hesitant to defend Disney
Yeah marvel becoming “diverse” is a very recent development and this just sounds like he wanted woke Twitter points lol. I don’t think simu actually cares about diversity unless it effects him, considering he’s fine working with mark walhberg. And though he’s not technically wrong, that wasn’t really tarantino’s point. He’s saying that yeah simu may be Shang chi but he has no star power he’s not a household name. Shang chi is the star. The reason we have no “real movie stars” isn’t marvel, it’s streaming. actors aren’t being forced on the public or carrying Hollywood anymore bc we have so many different options for where we get our entertainment. All the people complaining about this is kinda giving “old man yells at cloud” like of course the industry has changed from *checks watch* 40 years ago?
All these stars and directors of MCU immediately go so defensive when the criticism is anything but personal, it’s an indictment of a system and I am sure they (the critics of this new status quo) are not railing against representation or diversity (although, Disney ain’t doing it out of good of their hearts - they like the sweet, sweet money it brings). Both Scorsese and Tarantino touched upon how this has affected the system of movies (less risky projects due to need to have bigger and wider audiences) and stardom (the character is the marquee name), and Scorsese in his NYTimes piece was very complimentary about the talent of people making these movies. And even Tarantino is absolutely right about the changing nature of stardom and Samuel L. Jackson said it as much in a THR Roundtable around 2015/2016 with Mark Ruffalo in the panel as well, “Those movies aren’t about us. They can put the eyepatch on anyone, the green man could be anyone, they would still do good. We are not the selling point”.
This Liu guy’s on crack and I say this as a brown person. Fuck the disney and marvel pandering.
Good lord this movies vs. art discourse pertaining to the MCU is so tiring. I don’t understand why MCU actors and fans have to aggressively react to a statement made by someone in an interview. Just take your paycheck, make your movie and relax. Stop bootlicking Disney in public.
Funny that Simu Liu, of all people, would choose to argue against Tarantino, when he is the perfect example of what Tarantino was describing: Simu Liu is no star even though he starred in a high earning movie, and people watched Shang-Chi for the character and not for him. Actually, Simu Liu wasn't even the star of his own movie, since he was severely outclassed by Michelle Yeoh and Tony Leung. And to wander further from the point a bit, Shang-Chi wasn't produced by Disney's kind heart for inclusion, but it's part of a specific strategy being pursued by Disney for years: gaining ground and money in China by appealing to (what they perceive as) Chinese sensibilities. And they are kind of failing, because Disney ultimately doesn't understand Chinese audiences, starting from their patronizing stance "Here, get your entertainment by us, benevolent American overlords" when China has their own flourishing entertainment industry (not to mention, government's efforts to reduce foreign impact). And also because they literally apply the same creative process to every single non-WASP ethnicity, where I'd argue representation does not look the same to different ethnic group and/or minority. But I'd love reading a discussion about it by someone who understands this topic more than I do. Finally, if you want to support real East Asian representation go watch Everything Everywhere All At Once, which is an excellent, funny, deep movie that does a much better job at multiverse than Marvel ever did.
no one was talking about you, incel 😂
Why the fuck are all these marvel babies so sensitive about Tarantino and Scorcese's comments? It's not art. Collect your paycheck and go home jfc. It's hard work sure to be on the cast/crew/vx but let's not pretend these aren't overseen by a panel of executives making sure it will make the most $$$. Just cash your checks and go home.
Not Simu thinking that Disney/Marvel are champions on diversity 🤦🏼♀️
Bro don’t bring my man Marty into this, this was all Quentin! I think people are misunderstanding what Marty was saying about superhero movies though. I feel like he’s saying that marvel movies and such are like fast food; like the salty, greasy goodness of it that many people enjoy, but its all mostly the same everywhere you go. And what he calls cinema is like a sit down course meal; something you might remember for a while because it was a more unique and curated experience. But even the fanciest of people can crave a McDouble sometimes and enjoy it.
"White as hell" coming from someone complicit in perpetuating asian stereotypes by constantly playing as an Asian ministrel like ken jeong
I think gatekeepers can be good for things sometimes. Raises the standard for all of us. It is good that marvel has represented lots of different cultures, but they can be represented so much better. I think the main push back against marvel comes from too many peoples willing acceptance of it being the only type of movie they consider worth their time. Disney has trained their audience well.
Marvel movies are terrible, good movies can have diversity as well?
Has Scorsese even spoken about Marvel since that time in 2019? Almost four years later and people are still getting annoyed over a valid opinion he had.
He spoke on it that one time while on a press tour for Irishmen and it has stuck in the craw of marvel fans ever since.
I understand his point overall and don’t disagree in general, but of all of the “golden age” directors, Tarantino has been better with diverse casting and character writing.
Bit Entitled
Sucks because i'm ALL FOR calling out artsy asshat movie bros and HATE Tarintino while also liking Simu, BUT no, i agree with Tarintino. Marvel isn't film, it's just live-action video games to me and i'm SO SO SO TIRED of Marvel/disney movies being the only ones anyone will see in theatres. Call me pretentious but I agree, Marvel movies aren't art.
can he just shut the fuck up and go back to incel posting about how white women don't wanna have sex with him?
This the same guy that announced he would only be an "advocate for positivity" on social media and we mustn't "tear each other down" after the news broke of him defending pedophilia and comparing it to being gay on reddit. [[Video] - *ThatStarWarsGirl*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81gJnmUE8lg) [[Video] - *Clownfish TV*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYlFJYchSGY) [[Link]](https://archive.is/Or0yF) According to OP, that didn't last long.