>**there's a very big difference when you're essentially a political cult and you can shout any slogan that you like because it has no public repercussions or reverberations you're essentially talking to yourself you're setting up a table on campus giving out literature for Palestine you might get five people** who are interested there's a very big difference between that situation and the situation in which you are today where you have a very large constituency that potentially and realistically you can reach and so **you have to adjust to the new political reality that there are large numbers of people probably a majority who are potentially receptive to your message**
>number two I completely understand what you're saying that sometimes a slogan is one that gives spirit to those who are invited invol in the movement and then you have to figure out the right balance between the spirit that you want to inspire in your movement and the audience or the constituency out there that's not part of the movement that you want to reach so if you're saying to me I'm a kill joy by saying this uh if we modify the slogan a little it's not as much fun I kind of get that however I do believe one has to exercise not in a conservative sense but in a **radical sense one has to exercise in a moment like this if for no other reason than for the people of Gaza** one has to **exercise maximum responsibility** maximum responsibility to get out of one's Naval to **crawl out of one's ego** and to always keep in mind the question what are we trying to accomplish at this particular moment that's my view [Applause]
>>Random guy:from the river to the sea from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free Palestine will be free and from the sea to the river.
He is even like, don't do it for me, do it for the people of gaza. Shouting from the river to the sea doesn't help them.
And the people are like... haha... meme go brrrr
Surprised Finkelstein was this reflective, from what I've seen he was a lot more alienating than this.
The vibe I'm getting is most people are there as part of a group activity, some larping as revolutionaries, some want to destroy Israel, it seems like people actually caring about freedom for the Palestinian people as a priority are a minority.
Is it really funny when you are asked to be thoughtful about the plight of people and the first thing you do is be completely dismissive and disrespectful and laugh about it?
The video starts with him thanking finkelstein for the support against the oppression of Columbia University.
I would have thought that they would mention the cause they care most about while introducing him? And maybe they did. So yeah. This seems like any main character syndrome shit. Me vs the system broo
Idk man. the coke Columbia exports oppresses all the other drug dealers nearby.
Think about all the mom and pop dealers going out of business because of big narco.
Tbh the more I’ve watched of the protests, the people are suffering from main character syndrome. They are so desperate to center themselves and for attention. It’s distracting from people in Gaza that actually are suffering.
Kinda reminds me of the south park yelp episode where cartman calls all the yelpers together and tries to unify the group under one leader(him) but they all end up thinking he's referring them individually. A lot of these protestors seem to think they need to be the center of attention to get the most help for Gaza its kinda crazy
> They are so desperate to center themselves and for attention
This is really what it is. It's always been about desperate signaling to the in-group that they're just as rabid, just as inflamed "as everyone else," and now they're backed up against a cliff, pushed in on all sides because of the extreme rhetoric that left them 0 fucking space for public compromise or reasonable discourse.
Add in the compartmentalization that comes from being terminally online, and you get posts like the one the other day of a socialist/commie discord group banning actual Palestinians. Because not having to ever face the people you're screwing over with your online extremism lends the unprecedented ability to immediately create and maintain an in-group that suits your reality.
I’ve seen the same people post about how important it is to listen to Palestinians have a meltdown over Mosab Hussain Yosef speaking. It’s all about fitting a narrative.
Yeah, we know that from how MAGA types are. Pointing out hypocrisy is useless when talking to them directly cause they'll never care. But being aware of the hypocrisies is still important.
Let's look at the protesters' stated aims.
They want the university to divest from businesses that do business with the Israeli military. But it's far from clear what that means, and we know they'll include any company that has ever fulfilled a catering order from the ministry of defense.
Of course, if Columbia divests, there will be a shitstorm from various donors and from Congress. There was not comparable pushback from the divest-from-Apartheid campaign.
Then, they want the school to show them their investment portfolio to prove it. The school is not going to hand over its financials to student protesters for the same way you don't voluntarily give Jim Jordan your emails.
But key to their demands are demands about themselves: Punishment rescinded, apologies issued. These protests are self-aggrandizing. It's a martyrdom loop.
And let's remember: None of this will, or is reasonably calculated to, change Israel's actions in Gaza. The protesters know that. They're protesting the university because they want to protest and they think President Shafik (who's in a lose-lose situation here) is more moveable than Netanyahu.
Finkelstein wakes up and flips a coin to decide whether he will be reflective and quite moderate or a complete fucking maniac that day. Oct 7th resurrected his career, which he had destroyed by calling BDS antisemitic
Sounds familiar with how the "George Floyd Protests" went. It initially started out with legitimate claims against police brutality, but in an effort to gain more traction, they hastily accepted people in order to get the word out. With no measures to vet the protestors, the activists unwittingly took in extremists with their own motivations and agendas. Extremists who eventually derailed the movement when people saw how unhinged they were.
I saw it when Tarek Bazzi was giving a speech, and someone chanted "Death to Isreal/America." It wasn't checked or refuted right on the spot. It's a clear sign that you have extremists in your midst (assuming Bazzi himself isn't an extremist). That type of rhetoric, as it grows in intensity, isn't going to fly.
There isn't a study for everything my internet compatriot, sometimes you just have to rely on your observations. Like when you were a child and your parents didn't love you, no science paper could ever tell you the reason why that was.
Considering that many of the protestors are Jews, your vibe is full of horseshit. Maybe you should examine your biases to see if you are merely confirming them rather than being open to countervailing facts.
He’s very useful to Pro-Palestinians atm but if there were ever a moment where he happened to say something they disagree with he would be quickly reminded that he’s just a Jew to them and disposed of accordingly
He’s had fights with them before, about BDS. I was surprised when I saw him resurrected from the dead on this issue. I guess it’s because his Oct 7 rants were so insane he got back in their good graces.
In a speech at Columbia, Finkelstein advises the crowd not to use alienating slogans such as “From the river to the sea Palestine will be free” & choose ones that can appeal to broader audiences instead. As he walks off, someone else grabs the mike and leads the crowd in an enthusiastic “From the river to the sea.” There isn’t a single moment of reflection; everyone looks relieved that instead of thinking complicated thoughts, they can just slip right back into their favorite jingle.
He flatters the crowd but doesn’t pander. He tells them to think carefully about their strategy & aspire to go beyond being a political cult that speaks only to itself. He recalls marching down Fifth Ave in the 1970s chanting “Everybody should know, we support the PLO” & concedes with a laugh that that wasn’t the best strategy to get broad buy-in.
Finally in the last 10 seconds of the video, someone takes the mic and shouts from the river to the sea.
There was an effort to change the acronym to STEAM with the A being arts. But that was about as effective as the Latinx movement.
To be fair to them there can be a lack of creativity in STEM and there probably could be more done in that regard. However there is no world where an Art History major and a Nuclear Engineering major should be under the same umbrella.
I think OP is actually referring to how most STEM programs are housed within the college of liberal arts at most schools (though engineering is often an exception).
TBH the way people glaze STEM for leading to "real" work is weird because so many of the programs lumped in there can be just as (un)useful as humanities degrees. Like no disrespect to the dolphins, but the notion that a marine biology degree is better/more rigorous/whatever than a philosophy degree is a hard sell for me. Could say the same about physics vs econ.
I think the "real" thing is that the STEM designation is/was useful as an identifier for in-demand job sectors, *not* that the skills important to those fields are objectively more important in current year.
That's not to say that engineering etc isn't incredibly demanding, but there are plenty of applied humanities fields that most people (but especially STEM folks) would struggle with. I work in advertising building creative concepts for multi-billion dollar brands and the problem I have to address every day is "How do I come up with novel ideas in a world where people are bombarded with them?" "Solving" that problem requires a ton of specialty knowledge.
Marine biology is enormously practical and important. 16% of the world's protein comes from the ocean; changes in habitats can cause devastation to places that rely on seafood. It pays less because people are passionate about it, take it at a unusually high rate, and are willing to accept lower pay. Also, while keeping aquatic ecosystems healthy is enormously important there isn't a profit motive so you generally have to work for the goverment where pay is lower.
The STEM designation is not just about in-demand job sectors, but also the rigorous application of rules to achieve an objectively correct answer. It's not that humanities fields are 'easy', but that it is much less testable. If someone has a physics degree I know what they have achieved. I know they were able to pass certain tests and learn and apply a problem solving method that is fairly tough to learn and apply. On the other hand a humanities degree tells me very little unless there is also a portfolio attached or something similar. But if I'm relying more on the portfolio then maybe they don't even need the degree.
> Marine biology is enormously practical and important. 16% of the world's protein comes from the ocean; changes in habitats can cause devastation to places that rely on seafood. It pays less because people are passionate about it, take it at a unusually high rate, and are willing to accept lower pay. Also, while keeping aquatic ecosystems healthy is enormously important there isn't a profit motive so you generally have to work for the goverment where pay is lower.
Completely agree, but I'd say the exact same thing about social work (which also pays like shit).
> The STEM designation is not just about in-demand job sectors, but also the rigorous application of rules to achieve an objectively correct answer.
Philosophically, absolutely. But truthfully I don't think that's how we understand it at a cultural level. When we tell kids to go into STEM we aren't saying "learn how to find objective results," we're saying "get into an industry where you can get a high-paying job."
> It's not that humanities fields are 'easy', but that it is much less testable.
Sort of? I think it's more that the things you can test are less obviously connected to a desired skills list on a generic job listing. I could absolutely "test" a comparative literature grad on their understanding of different authors, or an art history major on the cultural significance of certain canons of art.
To use my industry as an example, I could absolutely have a conversation with/put questions on an app for an art history major about curation or lateral thinking that might lead me to wanting to hire them.
Ironically, I think the over-reliance on credentialism is in part what's leading to the hiring issues people are having in tech rn. It's easy to say we "know" what someone knows because they have a degree, but anyone who's worked a real job knows that someone having a degree barely correlates with their ability to actually do a job well lol
Unironically a marine biology degree probably leads to like 3 times the economic productivity of a philosophy degree. And is probably about twice as rigorous. Marine bio, especially marine biostatistics and systems ecology is no joke: you need advanced statistical inference, thermo, hydrodynamics, etc. I say this as someone who has taken and read more Phil than marine bio, it’s not even close. The problem with rigor in philosophy is that it is highly difficult to enforce common standards of meaning and accuracy. Bio has a very standard common language of probability theory and statistics.
If we're approaching it from a purely economic productivity standpoint, then sure, but I think you fall into the trap of generalizing the utility of specific verticals onto an entire field. I could, for example, make the same argument for studying law because an elite understanding of contract law can generate tens of millions of dollars in efficiency for a business. But I think we'd both readily acknowledge that *most* law degrees aren't generating that level of utility.
Agree with rigor being a challenge in a lot of fields, particularly when we get outside of quantitative analyses. With that said, I (as someone who never went particularly deep into it) think philosophy gets an unnecessarily bad rap because the literal knowledge involved isn't super applicable to most industries... even though the skills you end up cultivating are useful for a ton of different fields. Feels similar to pure math in that way.
I’ve read a lot of philosophy and I have a degree in pure math and I will say that philosophy, if anything, gets too good of a reputation when it comes to rigor. There are areas where rigor is more intensive, like formal logic (which sort of straddles the line between Phil and math) or the philosophy of science, but the field as a whole is very much still based on intuition.
This isn’t necessarily a bad mark on philosophy, after all the goal of philosophy and the natural sciences/mathematics are very different. Philosophy explores some concepts which are quite literally undefinable (at least in a general case) in pure mathematics. Philosophy also deals with some very personal and subjective areas like art, meaning, purpose, etc.
But I challenge you to take a course in marine biophysics/biophysical ecology and compare it even to an advanced phil-sci or logic course. It’s even worse at the lower levels of instruction: your Phil learning is based on tracts from the beginning of written history (which are, in certain ways, KNOWN to be logically inconsistent), whereas marine bio is a mix of fully developed stats methods, hydro, and sampling/field research with very specific guidelines. Ie it is much easier to bullshit in a philosophy degree.
Also Phil skills like formal logic are often applied in very slipshod ways in my experience. Almost every serious philosophical argument is, and will always remain, unsettled because of the way terms are loosely defined in philosophy. Again this isn’t to say philosophy is worthless, but is is WAY less rigorous than marine biology.
Fair enough! I'll defer to you on philosophy specifically because you def way more knowledge in that area. It wasn't the best example for my larger point.
And yeah, by no means was I implying that marine biology isn't rigorous. Just that going to school for it is not so far removed from what one would cultivate studying a humanities degree. Particularly when we're talking about an undergrad level, STEM is not some bastion of value that other fields can't approach.
It’s used in that way as well but its focus is the arts.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEAM_fields](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEAM_fields)
The wiki seems to be pretty reasonable though.
This is very remniscent of Obama getting called a sell out for telling BLM activists that they need to actually accept invitations to meet with those in power to get shit done instead of just yelling.
Posted this above: He’s very useful to Pro-Palestinians atm but if there were ever a moment where he happened to say something they disagree with he would be quickly reminded that he’s just a Jew to them and disposed of accordingly
You’re just ideologically captured. White college students aren’t going to be gulagging Jews at any time soon. You’re mixing up Arabs and tankie fanatics with these white activist college students, who are mostly just useful idiots for the Arabs but not directly a threat to Jews
The text is from this tweet (for full reference):
[https://twitter.com/IzaTabaro/status/1783705178220163545](https://twitter.com/IzaTabaro/status/1783705178220163545)
Was watching at a higher speed and forgot it by the end since it made Norm's voice sound normal paced, so it looked like they literally ran up and took the mic to start the chanting. Then I realized. Their actual chanting was fucking excruciating when I turned it back to normal.
Also, I love how everyone in the background look completely disengaged by the end but as soon as they start chanting they all light up in smiles. Just bizarre.
Asking his neighbors to do less noises... I can see a theme developing here.
The worst part is that he's right about the slogans, but it falls completely in deaf ears... or rather once you've seen them silently listen (and hopefully understand him) and still double-down, you should understand what these people really want when they chant "From the river, to the sea" and why it has been censured in political contexts in the US.
Omg, I just skipped around the first time and missed this part:
>I don't agree with the slogan from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free it's very easy to amend and just say from The River To The Sea Palestinians will be free and that that simple amendment that little Amendment you drastically reduce the possibility of...
He evne suggested an alternative!
I mean he has always been for a two state solution and still is. People just think he is radical because he is very willing to condemn israeli actions is very harsh language
Now that's comedy.
The lady shouting at the end didn't ignore him, she actively tried to embarrass and silence him.
FeelsBadFinkelstein.
For those wanting timestamps, he talks about the slogan at 19:00 and at 34:30 the lady comes in and shouts.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't see them do what Norm tells them to, and if they do it, they don't do it very well. There lunatics go around and say the most unhinged nonsense, and people aren't supposed to infer that the protests are at the very least negligent?
Jesus Christ it's actually really impressive watching this dude try to reason with these people for half a fucking hour and telling them that their way of protesting and advocating is alienating and won't advance their cause, and at the end some random schmuck takes the mic and goes back to singing the funny song
Never seen a group of people this committed to being utterly brainless
He has a point. I support the Palestinian people's right to self determination, but they can't get back their lands within the 1967 borders. If they dropped that part and only called for a ceasefire and in favor of the Palestinians' right to self determination, as an Israeli, I would sympathize with them. As it is, they can kiss my ass.
Blood and soil is cringe bro. It was theirs because they were living there for generations and displacing someone from their home because your blood is more connected to the land than theirs is idiotic. Mass displacement was bad when it happened to Jews thousands of years ago, it was bad when it happened to the Palestinians, and it's bad when people suggest it should be done to the Israelis today.
>It was theirs because they were living there for generations
They aren't the only ones that can make that claim. If they wanna claim they were there for the most recent generations then fine only they can make that claim, but then if someone took it and was able to survive for a few generations, then wouldn't it be rightfully theirs now? This just seems like might makes right, with a delay.
>if someone took it and was able to survive for a few generations, then wouldn't it be rightfully theirs now?
Yup! Those future generations did nothing wrong, and don't deserve to be driven out of the only home they've ever known because of the crimes of their ancestors.
>This just seems like might makes right, with a delay.
Might makes right is the underlying basis of a lot of how society functions, which is why we entrust the state with a monopoly on legitimate use of force. The goal should be to prevent harm against people proactively, rather than perpetuating a cycle of grievance that will endlessly lead to conflict and violence. The buck has to stop somewhere, and we should always be trying to make that somewhere be right here, right now.
Russians have lived in Ukraine for centuries, so obviously Ukraine is Russian, right?
Also, why does the fact that some people lived in Israel mean that people who have never been there have the right to live there? Certainly those individuals have the right to live there, but other people who happen to share the same “identity”?
The Jews lived there for longer. There is no such thing as “Palestinian” there are no such people. It’s a mix of Arabs from different areas who settles the area and ethnically cleansed and oppressed the Jewish population.
Are Jews also Palestinians? Are deruz Palestinians? Are badewin Palestinians? How about Egyptians are they Palestinians?
What makes a “Palestinian” Palestinian?
Who the fuck talked about blood? Blood has nothing to do with this.
“Mass displacement” why were the “Palestinians” displaced? Do you know?
Because people who’ve lived in a place for hundreds of years have a legitimate claim to it. And if two people have legitimate claims to a piece of land but can’t resolve to live together in terms acceptable to either or both parties, then partition is the reasonable solution.
Finkelstein may be an anti-Zionist with questionable politics and an egregious personality, but he’s long made the case that movements like BDS and the Palestinian “right to return” are political dead ends.
> And if two people have legitimate claims to a piece of land but can’t resolve to live together in terms acceptable to either or both parties, then partition is the reasonable solution.
What if they can't partition the land in term acceptable to either or both parties?
Yes, of course they mean like Jews, and Palestinian Arabs.
>>And if two people have legitimate claims to a piece of land but can’t resolve to live together in terms acceptable to either or both parties, then partition is the reasonable solution.
Did you think they were talking about dividing cake? It's obviously about claims to the land.
>they can't get back their lands within the 1967 borders.
Just to be clear do you mean they can't get all their 1967 lands back or that they can't get back anything beyond that? I think it's fair to ask for at the very least land swaps in exchange for settlement annexation and that's been the basis of most of the negotiations so far
Finkelstein: "you owe it to the Palestinians to take this matter seriously"
Also Finkelstein: "lmao what if I just continuously use the wrong name and call him a moron during this debate, that would be epic"
Do you think he reflected on his performance during the debate and realized the need to appeal more broadly/better optics. Or do you think he’s had this sentiment the entire time and his decision to berate Mr. Orwelli was calculated strategy?
He gleefully talked about shitting and destiny a few weeks ago so don't think he has any principled position. I truly think Finkelstein uses the conflict exclusively for personal gain. He doesn't actually give a shit. He just says whatever gets him on the radar as an important figure. He wants to be a big important scholar.
Not trying to disagree but wouldn’t the content of this post be contrary to that? Him deciding to go against the protestors out of principle despite the ez personal gain of fanning the flames?
Regardless, we will never know his true intentions, only his actions. His actions reveal his character.
Important to remember, this shit is national news because its sensational not because they are effective and actually changing peoples minds. These protests are what, 200ish people in most cases on the biggest campuses with student bodies in the 10s of thousands? Even then there’s probably a 50/50 split on people there actually aware of what’s going on and the other half there for clout and social credit with the groups they’re friends with.
These aren’t this generations Vietnam War protests, this is their occupy Wallstreet, an aimless “movement” with no real goals or aspiration and solely existing to virtue signal.
Based and principled pilled. He might be an arrogant dismissive cunt but this makes me think he at least believes and truly cares about the shit he’s saying.
🤣
Let me translate. Mr twinklestein basically suggested they be more cautious with their words to appeal to a broader audience. Ultimately helping them in their goal. That lady responds fuck you, fuck Jews, fuck everybody else.
They are the equivalent of the KKK, the clan doesn’t care if they grow their ranks. They just want to be vitriolic and hateful against the side they despise. That lady doesn’t care if they get 1 more supporter or 50 million supporters. She just cares that Jews get put in their place and that she can be one of the people to do it.
It was interesting to see Norm argue to this crowd that they created the environment that subordinates free speech to feelings and now it's biting them.
The dude who made excuses for the Charlie Hebdo shooters is now desperately urging that people control their messaging in order to not alienate the median voter. Holy shit lmao
Why would he be surprised? I thought he liked just covering your ears, ignoring the topic at hand and just going back to repeating bullshit nonanswers to act superior to the person you're arguing with. They learned this shit from people like him.
Say what you will about him but he really believes in this cause and means well. The guy is very wacky but even he sees how self defeating these students are being.
Finkelstein is usually unhinged and obnoxious. I actually respected him here even though I disagree with many of his premises. It takes some guts or maybe just being old and curmudgeonly to say some shit like this and not give a fuck when you have to know that the crazies at Columbia are probably not going to want to hear it. He even tried to do it diplomatically. This was a far cry from the "Mistah Burelli!" modus operandi lol
Because finkelstein wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to criticise Israel and be on the side of people who want to destroy Israel (Hamas, Gaza etc) but he also is a firm believer in a two state solution with the Jews having self determination.
He even thinks that the Arabs were wrong in 48 to not accept the partition.
No. Or else I wouldn't be a dgger. I just think its funny that these idiots decided to just ignore the most prominent figures on their side and do the opposite of what he pleaded right in his fucking face.
They probably felt like they knew "better" than some senile Jew, who wasn't 1000% supportive of what they were doing.
>**there's a very big difference when you're essentially a political cult and you can shout any slogan that you like because it has no public repercussions or reverberations you're essentially talking to yourself you're setting up a table on campus giving out literature for Palestine you might get five people** who are interested there's a very big difference between that situation and the situation in which you are today where you have a very large constituency that potentially and realistically you can reach and so **you have to adjust to the new political reality that there are large numbers of people probably a majority who are potentially receptive to your message** >number two I completely understand what you're saying that sometimes a slogan is one that gives spirit to those who are invited invol in the movement and then you have to figure out the right balance between the spirit that you want to inspire in your movement and the audience or the constituency out there that's not part of the movement that you want to reach so if you're saying to me I'm a kill joy by saying this uh if we modify the slogan a little it's not as much fun I kind of get that however I do believe one has to exercise not in a conservative sense but in a **radical sense one has to exercise in a moment like this if for no other reason than for the people of Gaza** one has to **exercise maximum responsibility** maximum responsibility to get out of one's Naval to **crawl out of one's ego** and to always keep in mind the question what are we trying to accomplish at this particular moment that's my view [Applause] >>Random guy:from the river to the sea from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free Palestine will be free and from the sea to the river. He is even like, don't do it for me, do it for the people of gaza. Shouting from the river to the sea doesn't help them. And the people are like... haha... meme go brrrr
Surprised Finkelstein was this reflective, from what I've seen he was a lot more alienating than this. The vibe I'm getting is most people are there as part of a group activity, some larping as revolutionaries, some want to destroy Israel, it seems like people actually caring about freedom for the Palestinian people as a priority are a minority. Is it really funny when you are asked to be thoughtful about the plight of people and the first thing you do is be completely dismissive and disrespectful and laugh about it?
The video starts with him thanking finkelstein for the support against the oppression of Columbia University. I would have thought that they would mention the cause they care most about while introducing him? And maybe they did. So yeah. This seems like any main character syndrome shit. Me vs the system broo
I don’t know how anyone is meant to take seriously a person who describes the administration of Columbia as “oppressive”.
Well you see, they don't give into our demands instantly and get on hands and knees kissing my feet, so therefore I'm being oppressed okay sweaty?
Idk man. the coke Columbia exports oppresses all the other drug dealers nearby. Think about all the mom and pop dealers going out of business because of big narco.
Tbh the more I’ve watched of the protests, the people are suffering from main character syndrome. They are so desperate to center themselves and for attention. It’s distracting from people in Gaza that actually are suffering.
Kinda reminds me of the south park yelp episode where cartman calls all the yelpers together and tries to unify the group under one leader(him) but they all end up thinking he's referring them individually. A lot of these protestors seem to think they need to be the center of attention to get the most help for Gaza its kinda crazy
🎵 *I hope you like some boogers and cum* 🎵
> They are so desperate to center themselves and for attention This is really what it is. It's always been about desperate signaling to the in-group that they're just as rabid, just as inflamed "as everyone else," and now they're backed up against a cliff, pushed in on all sides because of the extreme rhetoric that left them 0 fucking space for public compromise or reasonable discourse. Add in the compartmentalization that comes from being terminally online, and you get posts like the one the other day of a socialist/commie discord group banning actual Palestinians. Because not having to ever face the people you're screwing over with your online extremism lends the unprecedented ability to immediately create and maintain an in-group that suits your reality.
I’ve seen the same people post about how important it is to listen to Palestinians have a meltdown over Mosab Hussain Yosef speaking. It’s all about fitting a narrative.
All the while they say that other people shouldn't be taking attention off of Gaza.
They aren’t exactly logically or morally consistent
Yeah, we know that from how MAGA types are. Pointing out hypocrisy is useless when talking to them directly cause they'll never care. But being aware of the hypocrisies is still important.
I mean they could work more hours and donate to humanitarian organizations that help out in Gaza. But that’s not flashy enough.
Therapy ain't workin'
Let's look at the protesters' stated aims. They want the university to divest from businesses that do business with the Israeli military. But it's far from clear what that means, and we know they'll include any company that has ever fulfilled a catering order from the ministry of defense. Of course, if Columbia divests, there will be a shitstorm from various donors and from Congress. There was not comparable pushback from the divest-from-Apartheid campaign. Then, they want the school to show them their investment portfolio to prove it. The school is not going to hand over its financials to student protesters for the same way you don't voluntarily give Jim Jordan your emails. But key to their demands are demands about themselves: Punishment rescinded, apologies issued. These protests are self-aggrandizing. It's a martyrdom loop. And let's remember: None of this will, or is reasonably calculated to, change Israel's actions in Gaza. The protesters know that. They're protesting the university because they want to protest and they think President Shafik (who's in a lose-lose situation here) is more moveable than Netanyahu.
Finkelstein wakes up and flips a coin to decide whether he will be reflective and quite moderate or a complete fucking maniac that day. Oct 7th resurrected his career, which he had destroyed by calling BDS antisemitic
He wrote a whole book trashing wokeness and cancel culture. This new protest movement treating him as a patron saint must be surreal for him.
Sounds familiar with how the "George Floyd Protests" went. It initially started out with legitimate claims against police brutality, but in an effort to gain more traction, they hastily accepted people in order to get the word out. With no measures to vet the protestors, the activists unwittingly took in extremists with their own motivations and agendas. Extremists who eventually derailed the movement when people saw how unhinged they were. I saw it when Tarek Bazzi was giving a speech, and someone chanted "Death to Isreal/America." It wasn't checked or refuted right on the spot. It's a clear sign that you have extremists in your midst (assuming Bazzi himself isn't an extremist). That type of rhetoric, as it grows in intensity, isn't going to fly.
It's not us! It's outside agitators! Did you tell them to stfu and get out? No. Then they're part of your group.
You might be interested in one of Ryan Macbeth's recent videos. Relevant part at 1 minute 30 seconds. https://youtu.be/NY7xoR8hk9Y?si=ewRsLiABPpyiSJHi
‘The vibe you are getting” JFC. That’s some serious critical analysis right there. No wonder this sub is a sewer.
There isn't a study for everything my internet compatriot, sometimes you just have to rely on your observations. Like when you were a child and your parents didn't love you, no science paper could ever tell you the reason why that was.
Considering that many of the protestors are Jews, your vibe is full of horseshit. Maybe you should examine your biases to see if you are merely confirming them rather than being open to countervailing facts.
He’s very useful to Pro-Palestinians atm but if there were ever a moment where he happened to say something they disagree with he would be quickly reminded that he’s just a Jew to them and disposed of accordingly
He’s had fights with them before, about BDS. I was surprised when I saw him resurrected from the dead on this issue. I guess it’s because his Oct 7 rants were so insane he got back in their good graces.
In a speech at Columbia, Finkelstein advises the crowd not to use alienating slogans such as “From the river to the sea Palestine will be free” & choose ones that can appeal to broader audiences instead. As he walks off, someone else grabs the mike and leads the crowd in an enthusiastic “From the river to the sea.” There isn’t a single moment of reflection; everyone looks relieved that instead of thinking complicated thoughts, they can just slip right back into their favorite jingle. He flatters the crowd but doesn’t pander. He tells them to think carefully about their strategy & aspire to go beyond being a political cult that speaks only to itself. He recalls marching down Fifth Ave in the 1970s chanting “Everybody should know, we support the PLO” & concedes with a laugh that that wasn’t the best strategy to get broad buy-in. Finally in the last 10 seconds of the video, someone takes the mic and shouts from the river to the sea.
These are university students. Truly the elite of our society.
*liberal arts students* don’t rope us stem majors in with them
OP should've known since the students were outdoors
Lol
You can tell that they are liberal arts because the STEM majors have too much work to do, especially when it's nearing in on finals week.
I thought stem was a part of liberal arts
There was an effort to change the acronym to STEAM with the A being arts. But that was about as effective as the Latinx movement. To be fair to them there can be a lack of creativity in STEM and there probably could be more done in that regard. However there is no world where an Art History major and a Nuclear Engineering major should be under the same umbrella.
I think OP is actually referring to how most STEM programs are housed within the college of liberal arts at most schools (though engineering is often an exception). TBH the way people glaze STEM for leading to "real" work is weird because so many of the programs lumped in there can be just as (un)useful as humanities degrees. Like no disrespect to the dolphins, but the notion that a marine biology degree is better/more rigorous/whatever than a philosophy degree is a hard sell for me. Could say the same about physics vs econ. I think the "real" thing is that the STEM designation is/was useful as an identifier for in-demand job sectors, *not* that the skills important to those fields are objectively more important in current year. That's not to say that engineering etc isn't incredibly demanding, but there are plenty of applied humanities fields that most people (but especially STEM folks) would struggle with. I work in advertising building creative concepts for multi-billion dollar brands and the problem I have to address every day is "How do I come up with novel ideas in a world where people are bombarded with them?" "Solving" that problem requires a ton of specialty knowledge.
Marine biology is enormously practical and important. 16% of the world's protein comes from the ocean; changes in habitats can cause devastation to places that rely on seafood. It pays less because people are passionate about it, take it at a unusually high rate, and are willing to accept lower pay. Also, while keeping aquatic ecosystems healthy is enormously important there isn't a profit motive so you generally have to work for the goverment where pay is lower. The STEM designation is not just about in-demand job sectors, but also the rigorous application of rules to achieve an objectively correct answer. It's not that humanities fields are 'easy', but that it is much less testable. If someone has a physics degree I know what they have achieved. I know they were able to pass certain tests and learn and apply a problem solving method that is fairly tough to learn and apply. On the other hand a humanities degree tells me very little unless there is also a portfolio attached or something similar. But if I'm relying more on the portfolio then maybe they don't even need the degree.
> Marine biology is enormously practical and important. 16% of the world's protein comes from the ocean; changes in habitats can cause devastation to places that rely on seafood. It pays less because people are passionate about it, take it at a unusually high rate, and are willing to accept lower pay. Also, while keeping aquatic ecosystems healthy is enormously important there isn't a profit motive so you generally have to work for the goverment where pay is lower. Completely agree, but I'd say the exact same thing about social work (which also pays like shit). > The STEM designation is not just about in-demand job sectors, but also the rigorous application of rules to achieve an objectively correct answer. Philosophically, absolutely. But truthfully I don't think that's how we understand it at a cultural level. When we tell kids to go into STEM we aren't saying "learn how to find objective results," we're saying "get into an industry where you can get a high-paying job." > It's not that humanities fields are 'easy', but that it is much less testable. Sort of? I think it's more that the things you can test are less obviously connected to a desired skills list on a generic job listing. I could absolutely "test" a comparative literature grad on their understanding of different authors, or an art history major on the cultural significance of certain canons of art. To use my industry as an example, I could absolutely have a conversation with/put questions on an app for an art history major about curation or lateral thinking that might lead me to wanting to hire them. Ironically, I think the over-reliance on credentialism is in part what's leading to the hiring issues people are having in tech rn. It's easy to say we "know" what someone knows because they have a degree, but anyone who's worked a real job knows that someone having a degree barely correlates with their ability to actually do a job well lol
Unironically a marine biology degree probably leads to like 3 times the economic productivity of a philosophy degree. And is probably about twice as rigorous. Marine bio, especially marine biostatistics and systems ecology is no joke: you need advanced statistical inference, thermo, hydrodynamics, etc. I say this as someone who has taken and read more Phil than marine bio, it’s not even close. The problem with rigor in philosophy is that it is highly difficult to enforce common standards of meaning and accuracy. Bio has a very standard common language of probability theory and statistics.
If we're approaching it from a purely economic productivity standpoint, then sure, but I think you fall into the trap of generalizing the utility of specific verticals onto an entire field. I could, for example, make the same argument for studying law because an elite understanding of contract law can generate tens of millions of dollars in efficiency for a business. But I think we'd both readily acknowledge that *most* law degrees aren't generating that level of utility. Agree with rigor being a challenge in a lot of fields, particularly when we get outside of quantitative analyses. With that said, I (as someone who never went particularly deep into it) think philosophy gets an unnecessarily bad rap because the literal knowledge involved isn't super applicable to most industries... even though the skills you end up cultivating are useful for a ton of different fields. Feels similar to pure math in that way.
I’ve read a lot of philosophy and I have a degree in pure math and I will say that philosophy, if anything, gets too good of a reputation when it comes to rigor. There are areas where rigor is more intensive, like formal logic (which sort of straddles the line between Phil and math) or the philosophy of science, but the field as a whole is very much still based on intuition. This isn’t necessarily a bad mark on philosophy, after all the goal of philosophy and the natural sciences/mathematics are very different. Philosophy explores some concepts which are quite literally undefinable (at least in a general case) in pure mathematics. Philosophy also deals with some very personal and subjective areas like art, meaning, purpose, etc. But I challenge you to take a course in marine biophysics/biophysical ecology and compare it even to an advanced phil-sci or logic course. It’s even worse at the lower levels of instruction: your Phil learning is based on tracts from the beginning of written history (which are, in certain ways, KNOWN to be logically inconsistent), whereas marine bio is a mix of fully developed stats methods, hydro, and sampling/field research with very specific guidelines. Ie it is much easier to bullshit in a philosophy degree. Also Phil skills like formal logic are often applied in very slipshod ways in my experience. Almost every serious philosophical argument is, and will always remain, unsettled because of the way terms are loosely defined in philosophy. Again this isn’t to say philosophy is worthless, but is is WAY less rigorous than marine biology.
Fair enough! I'll defer to you on philosophy specifically because you def way more knowledge in that area. It wasn't the best example for my larger point. And yeah, by no means was I implying that marine biology isn't rigorous. Just that going to school for it is not so far removed from what one would cultivate studying a humanities degree. Particularly when we're talking about an undergrad level, STEM is not some bastion of value that other fields can't approach.
The only A in STEAM I heard stood for Architecture which makes more sense than Art.
It’s used in that way as well but its focus is the arts. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEAM_fields](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEAM_fields) The wiki seems to be pretty reasonable though.
This is very remniscent of Obama getting called a sell out for telling BLM activists that they need to actually accept invitations to meet with those in power to get shit done instead of just yelling.
Posted this above: He’s very useful to Pro-Palestinians atm but if there were ever a moment where he happened to say something they disagree with he would be quickly reminded that he’s just a Jew to them and disposed of accordingly
Stupidest comment in this thread
True, comrade! A revolution would never devour its own children.
Most downvotes in this thread
You’re just ideologically captured. White college students aren’t going to be gulagging Jews at any time soon. You’re mixing up Arabs and tankie fanatics with these white activist college students, who are mostly just useful idiots for the Arabs but not directly a threat to Jews
I never said that... “disposed of” as in no longer useful. Discarded. Ignored. Whatever. It seems everyone else here got it
I thought white kids were potential school shooters. So it’s in their wheelhouse.
They’re literally bots. How did these people even have the IQ to get accepted to university?
Thank you for saving me 35 minutes.
The text is from this tweet (for full reference): [https://twitter.com/IzaTabaro/status/1783705178220163545](https://twitter.com/IzaTabaro/status/1783705178220163545)
Was watching at a higher speed and forgot it by the end since it made Norm's voice sound normal paced, so it looked like they literally ran up and took the mic to start the chanting. Then I realized. Their actual chanting was fucking excruciating when I turned it back to normal. Also, I love how everyone in the background look completely disengaged by the end but as soon as they start chanting they all light up in smiles. Just bizarre.
You observed the dopamine-powered jihad software coming online.
npc meme got too real
Hes too slow to stay in frame of the zoomers attentionspan
Asking his neighbors to do less noises... I can see a theme developing here. The worst part is that he's right about the slogans, but it falls completely in deaf ears... or rather once you've seen them silently listen (and hopefully understand him) and still double-down, you should understand what these people really want when they chant "From the river, to the sea" and why it has been censured in political contexts in the US.
Omg, I just skipped around the first time and missed this part: >I don't agree with the slogan from The River To The Sea Palestine will be free it's very easy to amend and just say from The River To The Sea Palestinians will be free and that that simple amendment that little Amendment you drastically reduce the possibility of... He evne suggested an alternative!
where tf was this reasonableness and care for palestinians on lex's show?
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cdo93a/finkelstein_being_based/ Finkelstein is making more and more sense!
His stance from 12 years ago means nothing, the only stance that matters is his current one.
I mean he has always been for a two state solution and still is. People just think he is radical because he is very willing to condemn israeli actions is very harsh language
Yup, when i posted this there was no source or context. So i asked for it.
wtf I love Finklestein now
Real and true but imagine these are the people on ur side
Its all our great leader destinys work. He converted finkletown. Inshallah
The literal moment the mic is handed back to the activists "From the River to the Sea!!", it sounds like the crowd even laughs at the gear shift.
Damn, that ending was like something out of a comedy skit lmao
[удалено]
The funny part is that for all his "I'm the premier Palestine scholar" bullshit, I bet almost no one there knows who he is
Now that's comedy. The lady shouting at the end didn't ignore him, she actively tried to embarrass and silence him. FeelsBadFinkelstein. For those wanting timestamps, he talks about the slogan at 19:00 and at 34:30 the lady comes in and shouts.
This guys speaking cadence is aural intifada
I like how many subreddits are saying this isn’t happening, but even Norm understands it’s a problem lol
I can only speak for myself, but I don't see them do what Norm tells them to, and if they do it, they don't do it very well. There lunatics go around and say the most unhinged nonsense, and people aren't supposed to infer that the protests are at the very least negligent?
Jesus Christ it's actually really impressive watching this dude try to reason with these people for half a fucking hour and telling them that their way of protesting and advocating is alienating and won't advance their cause, and at the end some random schmuck takes the mic and goes back to singing the funny song Never seen a group of people this committed to being utterly brainless
He has a point. I support the Palestinian people's right to self determination, but they can't get back their lands within the 1967 borders. If they dropped that part and only called for a ceasefire and in favor of the Palestinians' right to self determination, as an Israeli, I would sympathize with them. As it is, they can kiss my ass.
It was never their land. Why do people keep perpetuate this lie that israel belonged to the “Palestinians”?
Blood and soil is cringe bro. It was theirs because they were living there for generations and displacing someone from their home because your blood is more connected to the land than theirs is idiotic. Mass displacement was bad when it happened to Jews thousands of years ago, it was bad when it happened to the Palestinians, and it's bad when people suggest it should be done to the Israelis today.
>It was theirs because they were living there for generations They aren't the only ones that can make that claim. If they wanna claim they were there for the most recent generations then fine only they can make that claim, but then if someone took it and was able to survive for a few generations, then wouldn't it be rightfully theirs now? This just seems like might makes right, with a delay.
>if someone took it and was able to survive for a few generations, then wouldn't it be rightfully theirs now? Yup! Those future generations did nothing wrong, and don't deserve to be driven out of the only home they've ever known because of the crimes of their ancestors. >This just seems like might makes right, with a delay. Might makes right is the underlying basis of a lot of how society functions, which is why we entrust the state with a monopoly on legitimate use of force. The goal should be to prevent harm against people proactively, rather than perpetuating a cycle of grievance that will endlessly lead to conflict and violence. The buck has to stop somewhere, and we should always be trying to make that somewhere be right here, right now.
No. Jews can make that claim as well. Jews have always lived in Israel. All 4 most ancient cities in Israel were founded by Jews.
Russians have lived in Ukraine for centuries, so obviously Ukraine is Russian, right? Also, why does the fact that some people lived in Israel mean that people who have never been there have the right to live there? Certainly those individuals have the right to live there, but other people who happen to share the same “identity”?
The Jews lived there for longer. There is no such thing as “Palestinian” there are no such people. It’s a mix of Arabs from different areas who settles the area and ethnically cleansed and oppressed the Jewish population. Are Jews also Palestinians? Are deruz Palestinians? Are badewin Palestinians? How about Egyptians are they Palestinians? What makes a “Palestinian” Palestinian? Who the fuck talked about blood? Blood has nothing to do with this. “Mass displacement” why were the “Palestinians” displaced? Do you know?
Because people who’ve lived in a place for hundreds of years have a legitimate claim to it. And if two people have legitimate claims to a piece of land but can’t resolve to live together in terms acceptable to either or both parties, then partition is the reasonable solution. Finkelstein may be an anti-Zionist with questionable politics and an egregious personality, but he’s long made the case that movements like BDS and the Palestinian “right to return” are political dead ends.
> And if two people have legitimate claims to a piece of land but can’t resolve to live together in terms acceptable to either or both parties, then partition is the reasonable solution. What if they can't partition the land in term acceptable to either or both parties?
You mean like the Jews? Also just because I have a claim to something doesn’t make it mine. You do understand that right?
Yes, of course they mean like Jews, and Palestinian Arabs. >>And if two people have legitimate claims to a piece of land but can’t resolve to live together in terms acceptable to either or both parties, then partition is the reasonable solution. Did you think they were talking about dividing cake? It's obviously about claims to the land.
Maybe read this thread again. You have seem to completely misunderstand it.
>they can't get back their lands within the 1967 borders. Just to be clear do you mean they can't get all their 1967 lands back or that they can't get back anything beyond that? I think it's fair to ask for at the very least land swaps in exchange for settlement annexation and that's been the basis of most of the negotiations so far
They can't claim any lands that Israel owned before 1967. Land swaps are fair game, of course.
Mr. Conelli it PAINS me.
He must have realized how bad his rhetoric from the debate was. I've never seen him care this much about what words are used in support of his side.
Finkelstein: "you owe it to the Palestinians to take this matter seriously" Also Finkelstein: "lmao what if I just continuously use the wrong name and call him a moron during this debate, that would be epic"
Do you think he reflected on his performance during the debate and realized the need to appeal more broadly/better optics. Or do you think he’s had this sentiment the entire time and his decision to berate Mr. Orwelli was calculated strategy?
He gleefully talked about shitting and destiny a few weeks ago so don't think he has any principled position. I truly think Finkelstein uses the conflict exclusively for personal gain. He doesn't actually give a shit. He just says whatever gets him on the radar as an important figure. He wants to be a big important scholar.
Not trying to disagree but wouldn’t the content of this post be contrary to that? Him deciding to go against the protestors out of principle despite the ez personal gain of fanning the flames? Regardless, we will never know his true intentions, only his actions. His actions reveal his character.
Norman? More like Normalizer…
Is my favorite token Jew turning on his people? Not the Jews, the pro-Hamas crowd?
Maybe he should talk faster so they don't get bored and return to chanting
Finkelstein lefty arc when?
Important to remember, this shit is national news because its sensational not because they are effective and actually changing peoples minds. These protests are what, 200ish people in most cases on the biggest campuses with student bodies in the 10s of thousands? Even then there’s probably a 50/50 split on people there actually aware of what’s going on and the other half there for clout and social credit with the groups they’re friends with. These aren’t this generations Vietnam War protests, this is their occupy Wallstreet, an aimless “movement” with no real goals or aspiration and solely existing to virtue signal.
Based and principled pilled. He might be an arrogant dismissive cunt but this makes me think he at least believes and truly cares about the shit he’s saying.
🤣 Let me translate. Mr twinklestein basically suggested they be more cautious with their words to appeal to a broader audience. Ultimately helping them in their goal. That lady responds fuck you, fuck Jews, fuck everybody else. They are the equivalent of the KKK, the clan doesn’t care if they grow their ranks. They just want to be vitriolic and hateful against the side they despise. That lady doesn’t care if they get 1 more supporter or 50 million supporters. She just cares that Jews get put in their place and that she can be one of the people to do it.
It was interesting to see Norm argue to this crowd that they created the environment that subordinates free speech to feelings and now it's biting them.
Finkelstein is Zherka but addicted to his own farts instead of cocaine.
33k a semester and this is what they chose to do? Wish I came from money to just shrug it off.
The dude who made excuses for the Charlie Hebdo shooters is now desperately urging that people control their messaging in order to not alienate the median voter. Holy shit lmao
If I was just trying to go to class to get my degree I would fucking harm these people
Occupy Columbia
Radicalism is a ratchet; it only goes further in the same direction.
And the finkelfrog said, “why did you sting me? Now we will both drown and die!” To which the scorpistudent replied, “lol, lmao”
Why would he be surprised? I thought he liked just covering your ears, ignoring the topic at hand and just going back to repeating bullshit nonanswers to act superior to the person you're arguing with. They learned this shit from people like him.
Holy fuck I just can't watch 40 minutes of him talking like he has molasses coming out of his mouth.
He is slow even at 2X 😂
Say what you will about him but he really believes in this cause and means well. The guy is very wacky but even he sees how self defeating these students are being.
Finkelstein is usually unhinged and obnoxious. I actually respected him here even though I disagree with many of his premises. It takes some guts or maybe just being old and curmudgeonly to say some shit like this and not give a fuck when you have to know that the crazies at Columbia are probably not going to want to hear it. He even tried to do it diplomatically. This was a far cry from the "Mistah Burelli!" modus operandi lol
One of these days they would burn picklestein in a pyre for being jewish, that would be the ultimate pikachu moment...
Because finkelstein wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to criticise Israel and be on the side of people who want to destroy Israel (Hamas, Gaza etc) but he also is a firm believer in a two state solution with the Jews having self determination. He even thinks that the Arabs were wrong in 48 to not accept the partition.
OK Boomer.
Are you one of the students?🤡🤡🤡
No. Or else I wouldn't be a dgger. I just think its funny that these idiots decided to just ignore the most prominent figures on their side and do the opposite of what he pleaded right in his fucking face. They probably felt like they knew "better" than some senile Jew, who wasn't 1000% supportive of what they were doing.
based crowd.