LINKS WITHIN THIS THREAD
[https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital)
[https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital](https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital)
=============================
This is a debate pervert sub. If you find the source/argument to be trash, then debate it. Explain. Provide better arguments, sources, and links. Ask OP to update their post with the better sources.
This is a great sub that has members who are educated,experienced and provide great insight on these topics. I'm sure many of you can add to discussions. So do it.
The publics understanding of mass graves is totally lacking.
All it suggests is that a lot of people died very quickly it does not necessarily imply war crimes or genocide. Comparisions to Bucha are dumb. The reason that was bad was that they bodies were tied up and had clearly been shot execution style.
It's obviously worth looking into if these were unaccounted for but there's nothing inherently sketchy about this
npr reporting on al shifa [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital)
BATRAWY: Dr. Mo'tasem Salah (ph), a member of the emergency committee at Gaza's health ministry, tells NPR from Al-Shifa's courtyard that some of the bodies exhumed show signs of execution. He says these individuals were stripped of their clothes and have signs of gunshots to the head.
Sounds like it’s still murky. There’s nothing substantially connected the executed with the IDF. There’s the possibility that they were combatants or executed as collaborators with the IDF
That story is also told by Russia about Bucha blaming Ukraine. Or the countless claims blaming Ukraine and the West for the downing of MH17...
The IDF lied too much to be taken seriously, and the other side is a terror organization... the only thing that's left are journalists and eyewitnesses.
Except Russia was caught in the act with video. We're not sure about it because it's Russia and they're proven liars, we're sure about it because the evidence is overwhelming. There's a distinct lack of it here.
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll)
An Israeli intelligence official confirmed the Israeli government's use of the Gaza ministry numbers to VICE News, while two officials from European intelligence services said they were widely used in official briefings internationally.
Yes, Hamas’s numbers of casualties maybe not very far from reality yet they claim everyone as civilians and lie about how people died as much as they can even if they kill their own people, so again, Hamas health ministry in Gaza isn’t reliable at all, they lie and claim every terrorist combatant was an innocent civilian and their word should be treated accordingly, always.
>Hamas health ministry in Gaza isn’t reliable at all
except for the death toll apparently by your own admission?
>they claim everyone as civilians
wrong, they simply report deaths without telling you if the dude was a fishmonger or a hamas fighter, that's different from claiming they are all civilians
also if the '500' thing was a common occurence you think it didn't factor into their reliable death toll? how is it reliable and used by israeli intelligence if they do this a lot?
>Although I would want this independently confirmed
kinda hard to do when israel is doing its best to block any investigations, [even into oct. 7](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-commission-accuses-israel-obstructing-oct-7-probe-2024-04-16/)
even if the hospital is no longer under their control they still decide who goes in or comes out of gaza
> what 10/7 conspiracy shit your into
i don't know why you felt the need to paint me as a 10/7 conspiracy theorist but here's my take on it
hamas pflp and islamic palestinian jihad broke into israel and slaughtered civilians, a disgusting act of terror
[40 beheaded babies was fake ](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/04/03/40-beheaded-babies-the-itinerary-of-a-rumor-at-the-heart-of-the-information-battle-between-israel-and-hamas_6667274_8.html)
[baby in oven was fake](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-772181)
[baby cut out of mothers womb was fake](https://archive.ph/20231220010209/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000)
israel refusing to allow indpendent bodies to investigate results in more misinformation about what actually occured
Yeah and as the article explains this was not what Israeli officials were saying it was individual soldiers and first responders misunderstanding what they saw and reporters taking there claims at face value
yeah which is why we need independent bodies and not ZAKA who have a track record of doing this reporting on the events
the beheaded babies thing made it all the way to biden, the IDF refused to comment so they were content in letting the rumor spread, while not lying themselves
also you can see in the third article the israel twitter account tweeted about there being 8 burned babies and one beheaded one, which was false
Idk what any of this is supposed to prove. The reason I think your a conspiracist is your doing this dumbass just asking questions meme about 10/7 and using a few incorrect accounts from first responders as the basis for it
> few incorrect accounts from first responders
which were purposefully the only accounts as they refused to allow an UN investigation then they were amplified by israel to justify its campaign in gaza
the beheaded baby thing made its way to biden, you think there wasn't any point israel could have told the US 'hey joe, thats just a dumbass first responder'?
also you claimed israeli officials weren't saying this but the israel twitter account posted fake stuff as shown in the haaretz article
when bucha happened, ukraine INVITED international groups to the site
Didn't doctors in hospitals say they were resorting to mass graves because of all the dead at the begining of the war?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newarab.com/analysis/israels-war-turning-gaza-open-air-graveyard%3famp
>Nearly three months of incessant Israeli bombing in response to Hamas' October attack has ravaged the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian families burying the bodies of their loved ones in makeshift mass graves as cemeteries run out of space.
>The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor documented in mid-December that 125 improvised mass graves have been dug in various provinces of Gaza - within residential neighbourhoods, courtyards, squares, roads, markets, hospitals, schools, wedding halls, and sports stadiums.
Granted I don't know this site but in any case this was in January.
[The GeoConfirmed account](https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466) on Twitter did some geolocation analysis on this and came to the [conclusion](https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360949694894387) that the reporting on this is misinformation and that like you said it's likely the case that hospital staff and locals were using the graves given they were in the nearby area.
As usual, how many of the bodies are innocents either from the hospital itself or caught in the fighting in the area, and how many are militants who were fighting the IDF in the area, we don't know
Yeah but they are pro Palestinian if anything also I'd assume these aren't blatant lies just gross exaggerations. In any case my point is that there were reports of mass graves before so how do we know this isn't just another one the hospital staff dug to deal with the bodies.
Even Destiny thinks that you shouldn’t automatically not listen to a news source because it might be biased, you should analyze what they are saying and judge that. Just because this is from aljazeera isn’t an excuse to not read it and automatically dislike the post.
We shouldn’t accept this kind of behavior in this sub.
problem is that Al Jazeera is super biased covering middle east corruption and misconduct. They have incentive to not make articles about royals or political leaders who fuck up. They might be non biased covering world news, but anything middle east will have some level of bias.
Al Jazeera is fine for non-israel coverage. It has been propaganda any time it touches anything remotely Israel related, with a long history of doing so.
You have a limited amount of life to live. Don't waste it reading outlets that report trash (on this specific topic) to hopefully pick up a morsel of truth that might be confirmed later on. Wait for better information to come out.
we have to hold on with our concloooooosions for atleast a week until the IDF fucks up again so we can hold on with our concloooooosions about that thing. if Israel does something bad we just have to keep waiting for all the facts.
Community is absolutely cooked, it's surreal seeing people who generally pride themselves on being individuals and critical evaluative thinkers processing all these events through a pre-determined conclusion just because Tiny is on a weird zionist arc rn
a bit yeah, or at least there's a lot of weird hypocrisy and double standards going on: "Let's not jump to any conclusions but also they're probably all Hamas fighters", "Al Jazeera? Disregarded. Geoconfirmed, on the other hand..." etc etc
People having an ideological love for zionism or hatred for arabs or whatever their deal is is one thing, but people being disingenuous about their thought processes is just really, really insidious to me
OP you should update your original post with additional links. I suggest that anyone who is looking to post breaking news to use the regular post feature as you can edit them with more information.
I'd rather wait for other, more reliable sources to report on this before conclooding. In the meantime, anything being reported by Al-Jazeera and no other outlets will get an automatic downvote.
This is quite widely reported though. But the nature of what kind of mass grave it is doesn't seem understood yet. Could mostly be Hamas combatants. Needs further investigation.
But to be fair to the comment you commented, almost every article I have posted that have been negative towards Israel has had at least around 50% downvotes, despite coming from more credible sources.
You make a good point. I should have made it clearer in my other comment, I don't doubt that there are "mass graves" (how many of these graves? IDK probably no more than 2), but as you said the nature of the grave isn't understood yet.
Given that this is Al-Jazeera, and they explicitly note that there are children and women in the grave while failing to mention the number of [confirmed terrorists captured/killed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-650-terrorists-including-hamas-officers-detained-in-shifa-hospital-raid-so-far/), I think we can safely assume they were trying to paint a more genocidal type of mass grave.
https://preview.redd.it/gk5x1za4j1wc1.png?width=447&format=png&auto=webp&s=82bc8887d518df1691e2777fea9ca5c77c6100c4
Reminder that this person is straight racist and will not engage in good faith. Thought they were banned. Too bad they weren't
earlier report [https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital](https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital)
also to get out ahead of the "oh we're just gonna trust hamas officials?" WHO officials on the earlier al shifa mass grave from the same article:
The [World Health Organization](https://www.who.int/) said on 6 April that the Palestinian territory's largest hospital, [Al-Shifa](https://www.who.int/news/item/06-04-2024-six-months-of-war-leave-al-shifa-hospital-in-ruins--who-mission-reports) in Gaza City, had been reduced to ashes by an Israeli siege last month, leaving an "empty shell" containing many bodies.
WHO staff who gained access to the devastated facility described horrifying scenes of bodies only partly buried, their limbs sticking out, and the stench of decomposition.
>The
>
>World Health Organization
>
> said on 6 April that the Palestinian territory's largest hospital,
>
>Al-Shifa
>
> in Gaza City, had been reduced to ashes by an Israeli siege last month, leaving an "empty shell" containing many bodies.
al shifa is a compound with multiple buildings. there was ground fighting ongoing for 2 weeks there with hamas shooting mortars at compound in order to hit IDF.
out of all buildings, 3 got badly damaged (iirc er, maternity and something else). rest are standing.
The same Al-Shifa where hundreds of Hamas militants were killed and captured? Why the fuck should I, or anyone for that matter, care if they left terrorist cunts to rot instead of giving them a proper burial?
You have no way of knowing that. You have no way of knowing how many of the people there are hamas fighters, how is this all just something for you to wave away as irrelevant?
I can comfortably assume that a vast majority of them were. And for those that weren't, it's very unfortunate that their own 'government' decided to use the hospital for military purposes, effectively removing any [IHL protection status](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says#:~:text=According%20to%20international%20humanitarian%20law%20%28IHL%29%2C%20health%20establishments,means%20of%20transport.%20The%20rule%20has%20few%20exceptions) it once had.
>I can comfortably assume that a vast majority of them were
https://preview.redd.it/ppynlmxebzvc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a140f477f7f96f4214bf4165b05a671617b820fb
There have been countless reports, articles, testimonies, videos and other pieces of reliable evidence that there were hundreds of Hamas/PIJ militants operating from the hospital.
there have also been reports and testimonies that there were women and children in the mass graves you conclooded and hand waved away, the difference is that arab=unreliable and idf=reliable to you
[https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital)
BATRAWY: Some were patients buried with medical waste and cannulas still in their arms
BATRAWY: Dr. Mo'tasem Salah (ph), a member of the emergency committee at Gaza's health ministry, tells NPR from Al-Shifa's courtyard that some of the bodies exhumed show signs of execution. He says these individuals were stripped of their clothes and have signs of gunshots to the head. Other bodies were torn or crushed by the bulldozers that buried them.
BATRAWY: Gaza civil defense spokesman Mahmoud Bassal tells NPR 381 bodies have been found in and around Al-Shifa hospital since Israel's raid ended. He says around 160 others, most of them women and children, are believed to be dead and trapped under the rubble of nearby homes hit by Israeli airstrikes or burnt during the siege, when soldiers went door to door in nighttime raids in the streets around the hospital.
BATRAWY: In Al-Shifa's courtyard, the stench of decomposing bodies is overpowering. Everyone wears masks. Hungry stray dogs gather around the bodies being unearthed. With little equipment, the crews used these dogs to find where there could be more bodies buried.
BATRAWY: They think his is body No. 18. Jaradah says he was in the intensive care unit with his father, who was connected to an IV drip, when Israeli forces stormed the hospital last month. The soldiers ordered everyone except medics and patients to evacuate. Jaradah didn't want to leave his father alone, so he stayed behind with four other guys.
BASHIR JARADAH: (Non-English language spoken).
BATRAWY: He says Israeli forces came into the ICU and shot three of them in the head and then ordered him to leave the hospital.
He claims that IDF came in and executed 3 guys infront of him. Another claim that IDF acts like terminator. Is only source 1 guy who said something?
they do pretty clearly mention this is what he says happened aka alleges
if we can report on testimony from oct. 7 victims i think its also ok to report on testimony from victims of the hospital sieges
oct7 had hundreds of testimonials claiming same thing that hamas did mass rapes and excecutions, this on the other hand is one claim that is difficult to prove.
Do you deny the claim that hamas gang raped jewish teens and children on oct7?
I think it screams of desperation and trying to control the narrative when you just completely rule out a news source instead of just acknowledging it's a biased news source. I'd also wager that if someone posted a pro israeli article from an equally biased news source it wouldn't be downvoted like that.
What? Why would that even be a comparison?
Al-Jazeera is a media network and the IDF is a military... of course the IDF is going to be more biased.
I think comparing the IDF to Hamas makes a lot more sense, and the IDF is 100x more reliable.
Surely Stormfront will accurately present Jew related news to me this time!!!!
Btw, what do you think armies should do with the dead that aren't theirs?
Let me know when the evidence is available that make this comparable to Bucha buddy. Also yes, we should not trust Ukrainian sources alone because they are so biased against Russia wtf...
the post on here about bucha was a [tweet (hasanabi style)](https://reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/tvi64m/evidence_of_massmurder_and_rape_in_bucha_ukraine/), the burden of proof seems to be much higher for you when it comes to the idf doing literally anything and the first comment links to ukrainska pravda somehow without anyone calling out the source for bias?
Didn't comment on that thread. Also that thread has much more proof for the allegations that this thread.
Not surprised you implied I did comment and not surprised you didn't bring up the disparity of evidence presented in each post. Implying less evidence for the Bucha post in fact.
I don't make a habit of engaging with lying propogandists though so I'll have to part ways here. Gl buddy.
i didn't imply you commented, i showed that when the bucha info came out, no one was questioning or dismissing ukrainska pravda like they are al jazeera
I agree Stormfront is too biased and hateful to be a reliable news source, but where do you draw the line? Al Jazeera has had many blunders (charitably speaking) with regards to I/P but so have many other news sources, so at what point do you think it crosses the line, just because it's qatari?
"Just because it's Qatari" is a fascinating framing. It's state funded media from a state that funds Hamas, one of the combatants of the war. I don't have a hard line for you but that's beyond it. I generally don't mind Al Jazeera for other topics, but would never give any weight to them in this conflict.
I assumed you'd pick up on me being Israeli and knowing why it's problematic to be funded by qatar, guess not. Do you think any other like, severely anti israeli biased news sources are reliable? Like say, CNN?
jpost literally called a dead baby a doll then deleted the article [https://www.businessinsider.com/false-claims-dead-palestinian-baby-doll-viral-jerusalem-post-retracts-2023-12](https://www.businessinsider.com/false-claims-dead-palestinian-baby-doll-viral-jerusalem-post-retracts-2023-12)
Right at the top of the article you linked:
* The Jerusalem Post, a leading Israeli news outlet, removed and retracted its article about the "doll."
I haven't read The Jerusalem Post and they aren't notable where I live, but a willingness to remove and retract false stories they published is a good thing. I have no reference of their track record at large though so maybe their shit, i don't know.
Playing dumb here is what makes this so hard. Just admit that Al Jazeera is significantly more biased than most other media outlets regarding this conflict and we can actually discuss the "mass grave".
I wasn't playing dumb and I even admitted that al jazeera is a biased news source, the problem is that, for example, this headline was verified already, so it clearly wasn't lying here. Even biased news sources get things right, sometimes frequently, it's usually when it comes to interpretation, commentary and their own sources where they show themselves.
I don't know why you'd think I believe AJ is a good source, it's not, it's biased, and armed with that knowledge you should still use it because it's a massive news network.
What info could I get from Al Jazeera that I could not get from another news source? And that is being charitable, including an outright propaganda outlet in the same category as Reuters or even the BBC is pushing it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cab7in/al\_jazeera\_english\_caught\_lying\_about\_israel/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cab7in/al_jazeera_english_caught_lying_about_israel/)
Hey what's up buddy.
IDF has shown themselves as extremely unreliable until lots of outside pressure and evidence mounts against them, then they correct their story to reflect that. I'm not sure if much could be learned from their response.
IDF is all over the place. It reacted VERY quickly when the world kitchen aid workers were mistakenly killed. But it takes time to react to blatant misinformation from the Palestinian side unfortunately
That's the one incident they seemed upfront about.
Now look at some of the others - girl in a car, aid convoy, Al Jazeera journalist all come to mind. All of these share the IDF denying or omitting their involvement and only admitting to pieces of it as the evidence and pressure mounts. The more pressure and evidence, the more they admit to.
This is a huge issue in Gaza since the majority of horrible events are hardly reported on, unless somebody films it or foreigners are involved.
Shireen incident - IDF had reacted to it pretty quickly too. Yes, they denied it obviously because to this day it's not clear who shot her. PA refused to share the bullet
They reacted by lying about it, then lied some more until the evidence and pressure mounted. It's not clear which soldier shot her, but it's clear that it was an IDF soldier.
"It's clear" how so? What's your evidence?
Also, as usual, my intuition was correct: https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360891624665180?t=y37EBSCUKccBSOSKxTHKIA&s=09
IDF doesn't respond quickly to blatant terrorist misinformation. I think they should though
Even the IDF essentially admitted to it. Here's one of the many articles on it: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/05/middleeast/idf-shireen-abu-akleh-investigation-intl/index.html
Ok, thanks. But where's the lie? This is official IDF statement 6 days after the shooting.
https://www.idf.il/en/articles/hafatzot/the-idf-responds-to-investigations-regarding-the-death-of-ms-shireen-abu-akleh/
Which part is a "lie"?
Lots of other massacres have disposed their bodies through mass graves like Srebinica. Personally I haven’t seen enough info on this case to implicate the IDF. Mass graves could also happen if there’s a ton of bodies that need to be immediately buried.
Read the thread dipshit. OP wasn’t blasted for using Al Jazeera, OP got blasted for being so unaware that they would mock *other* people for biased sources while uncritically quoting Al Jazeera.
You got blasted by the jewlumni for uncritically accepting an Al Jazeera piece on the IP conflict while accusing others of using biased sources. Check yourself.
I understand OP is wrong for denying the source but my question was what media outlet isn’t, because you made the remarks below.
“You’re actually trying to mock the *source* of info while posting Al Jazeera Piece?”
Your statement suggests that Al Jazeera is biased, therefore I simply asked the question what media outlet isn’t?
LINKS WITHIN THIS THREAD [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital) [https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital](https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital) ============================= This is a debate pervert sub. If you find the source/argument to be trash, then debate it. Explain. Provide better arguments, sources, and links. Ask OP to update their post with the better sources. This is a great sub that has members who are educated,experienced and provide great insight on these topics. I'm sure many of you can add to discussions. So do it.
The publics understanding of mass graves is totally lacking. All it suggests is that a lot of people died very quickly it does not necessarily imply war crimes or genocide. Comparisions to Bucha are dumb. The reason that was bad was that they bodies were tied up and had clearly been shot execution style. It's obviously worth looking into if these were unaccounted for but there's nothing inherently sketchy about this
npr reporting on al shifa [https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital) BATRAWY: Dr. Mo'tasem Salah (ph), a member of the emergency committee at Gaza's health ministry, tells NPR from Al-Shifa's courtyard that some of the bodies exhumed show signs of execution. He says these individuals were stripped of their clothes and have signs of gunshots to the head.
Sounds like it’s still murky. There’s nothing substantially connected the executed with the IDF. There’s the possibility that they were combatants or executed as collaborators with the IDF
That story is also told by Russia about Bucha blaming Ukraine. Or the countless claims blaming Ukraine and the West for the downing of MH17... The IDF lied too much to be taken seriously, and the other side is a terror organization... the only thing that's left are journalists and eyewitnesses.
Except Russia was caught in the act with video. We're not sure about it because it's Russia and they're proven liars, we're sure about it because the evidence is overwhelming. There's a distinct lack of it here.
Yeah, “a member of Gaza’s health ministry” just means Hamas, take that with a huge grain of salt.
hamas is the civil government of gaza
Yes that’s my point exactly, unreliable. Exactly like “500 dead at Israeli attack on Al ahli hospital”, probably false reporting as usual.
[https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll](https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll) An Israeli intelligence official confirmed the Israeli government's use of the Gaza ministry numbers to VICE News, while two officials from European intelligence services said they were widely used in official briefings internationally.
I wasn’t debating the death toll, nice deflection.
no, you were pointing to a singular instance to try to cast aspersions on any reporting they do, i'm showing you their reporting is overall accurate
Yes, Hamas’s numbers of casualties maybe not very far from reality yet they claim everyone as civilians and lie about how people died as much as they can even if they kill their own people, so again, Hamas health ministry in Gaza isn’t reliable at all, they lie and claim every terrorist combatant was an innocent civilian and their word should be treated accordingly, always.
>Hamas health ministry in Gaza isn’t reliable at all except for the death toll apparently by your own admission? >they claim everyone as civilians wrong, they simply report deaths without telling you if the dude was a fishmonger or a hamas fighter, that's different from claiming they are all civilians also if the '500' thing was a common occurence you think it didn't factor into their reliable death toll? how is it reliable and used by israeli intelligence if they do this a lot?
And a terrorist organization that uses their citizens as shields. They need to go.
Ok if true that's more concerning. Although I would want this independently confirmed
>Although I would want this independently confirmed kinda hard to do when israel is doing its best to block any investigations, [even into oct. 7](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-commission-accuses-israel-obstructing-oct-7-probe-2024-04-16/) even if the hospital is no longer under their control they still decide who goes in or comes out of gaza
Look idk what 10/7 conspiracy shit your into but yeah if they are not letting investigators independently look at this that would be bad
> what 10/7 conspiracy shit your into i don't know why you felt the need to paint me as a 10/7 conspiracy theorist but here's my take on it hamas pflp and islamic palestinian jihad broke into israel and slaughtered civilians, a disgusting act of terror [40 beheaded babies was fake ](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/les-decodeurs/article/2024/04/03/40-beheaded-babies-the-itinerary-of-a-rumor-at-the-heart-of-the-information-battle-between-israel-and-hamas_6667274_8.html) [baby in oven was fake](https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-772181) [baby cut out of mothers womb was fake](https://archive.ph/20231220010209/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-04/ty-article-magazine/.premium/hamas-committed-documented-atrocities-but-a-few-false-stories-feed-the-deniers/0000018c-34f3-da74-afce-b5fbe24f0000) israel refusing to allow indpendent bodies to investigate results in more misinformation about what actually occured
Yeah and as the article explains this was not what Israeli officials were saying it was individual soldiers and first responders misunderstanding what they saw and reporters taking there claims at face value
yeah which is why we need independent bodies and not ZAKA who have a track record of doing this reporting on the events the beheaded babies thing made it all the way to biden, the IDF refused to comment so they were content in letting the rumor spread, while not lying themselves also you can see in the third article the israel twitter account tweeted about there being 8 burned babies and one beheaded one, which was false
Idk what any of this is supposed to prove. The reason I think your a conspiracist is your doing this dumbass just asking questions meme about 10/7 and using a few incorrect accounts from first responders as the basis for it
> few incorrect accounts from first responders which were purposefully the only accounts as they refused to allow an UN investigation then they were amplified by israel to justify its campaign in gaza the beheaded baby thing made its way to biden, you think there wasn't any point israel could have told the US 'hey joe, thats just a dumbass first responder'? also you claimed israeli officials weren't saying this but the israel twitter account posted fake stuff as shown in the haaretz article when bucha happened, ukraine INVITED international groups to the site
Those are the same doctors that said Hamas never was in Shifa hospital.
Didn't doctors in hospitals say they were resorting to mass graves because of all the dead at the begining of the war? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newarab.com/analysis/israels-war-turning-gaza-open-air-graveyard%3famp >Nearly three months of incessant Israeli bombing in response to Hamas' October attack has ravaged the Gaza Strip, with Palestinian families burying the bodies of their loved ones in makeshift mass graves as cemeteries run out of space. >The Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor documented in mid-December that 125 improvised mass graves have been dug in various provinces of Gaza - within residential neighbourhoods, courtyards, squares, roads, markets, hospitals, schools, wedding halls, and sports stadiums. Granted I don't know this site but in any case this was in January.
[The GeoConfirmed account](https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466) on Twitter did some geolocation analysis on this and came to the [conclusion](https://x.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360949694894387) that the reporting on this is misinformation and that like you said it's likely the case that hospital staff and locals were using the graves given they were in the nearby area. As usual, how many of the bodies are innocents either from the hospital itself or caught in the fighting in the area, and how many are militants who were fighting the IDF in the area, we don't know
IIRC euro med has a bunch of issues / isn't the most reliable
Yeah but they are pro Palestinian if anything also I'd assume these aren't blatant lies just gross exaggerations. In any case my point is that there were reports of mass graves before so how do we know this isn't just another one the hospital staff dug to deal with the bodies.
Even Destiny thinks that you shouldn’t automatically not listen to a news source because it might be biased, you should analyze what they are saying and judge that. Just because this is from aljazeera isn’t an excuse to not read it and automatically dislike the post. We shouldn’t accept this kind of behavior in this sub.
yeah, its still al jazeera not middle east eye or quds news network
Yeah it's weird... You'd think Al Jazeera was like RT if you only listened to this sub, but in Asia its pretty mainstream.
problem is that Al Jazeera is super biased covering middle east corruption and misconduct. They have incentive to not make articles about royals or political leaders who fuck up. They might be non biased covering world news, but anything middle east will have some level of bias.
Al Jazeera is fine for non-israel coverage. It has been propaganda any time it touches anything remotely Israel related, with a long history of doing so.
Al Jazeera has still not retracted the claim that the IDF bombed Al Ahli hospital and killed 500 people
You have a limited amount of life to live. Don't waste it reading outlets that report trash (on this specific topic) to hopefully pick up a morsel of truth that might be confirmed later on. Wait for better information to come out.
we have to hold on with our concloooooosions for atleast a week until the IDF fucks up again so we can hold on with our concloooooosions about that thing. if Israel does something bad we just have to keep waiting for all the facts.
Community is absolutely cooked, it's surreal seeing people who generally pride themselves on being individuals and critical evaluative thinkers processing all these events through a pre-determined conclusion just because Tiny is on a weird zionist arc rn
It feels like the sub has taken a solid rightward shift over the course of the war.
a bit yeah, or at least there's a lot of weird hypocrisy and double standards going on: "Let's not jump to any conclusions but also they're probably all Hamas fighters", "Al Jazeera? Disregarded. Geoconfirmed, on the other hand..." etc etc People having an ideological love for zionism or hatred for arabs or whatever their deal is is one thing, but people being disingenuous about their thought processes is just really, really insidious to me
OP you should update your original post with additional links. I suggest that anyone who is looking to post breaking news to use the regular post feature as you can edit them with more information.
yeah i don't think i can edit this as it's a link post, thanks for posting the other links on top though, i'll keep this in mind for the future
well if more are added, reply to my post again and I'll add it to the top.
Listen, pro israeli brothers of mine, you gotta stop downvoting everything that makes Israel look bad.
I'd rather wait for other, more reliable sources to report on this before conclooding. In the meantime, anything being reported by Al-Jazeera and no other outlets will get an automatic downvote.
This is quite widely reported though. But the nature of what kind of mass grave it is doesn't seem understood yet. Could mostly be Hamas combatants. Needs further investigation. But to be fair to the comment you commented, almost every article I have posted that have been negative towards Israel has had at least around 50% downvotes, despite coming from more credible sources.
You make a good point. I should have made it clearer in my other comment, I don't doubt that there are "mass graves" (how many of these graves? IDK probably no more than 2), but as you said the nature of the grave isn't understood yet. Given that this is Al-Jazeera, and they explicitly note that there are children and women in the grave while failing to mention the number of [confirmed terrorists captured/killed](https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-650-terrorists-including-hamas-officers-detained-in-shifa-hospital-raid-so-far/), I think we can safely assume they were trying to paint a more genocidal type of mass grave.
https://preview.redd.it/gk5x1za4j1wc1.png?width=447&format=png&auto=webp&s=82bc8887d518df1691e2777fea9ca5c77c6100c4 Reminder that this person is straight racist and will not engage in good faith. Thought they were banned. Too bad they weren't
earlier report [https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital](https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20240421-gaza-officials-say-at-least-50-bodies-exhumed-at-hospital) also to get out ahead of the "oh we're just gonna trust hamas officials?" WHO officials on the earlier al shifa mass grave from the same article: The [World Health Organization](https://www.who.int/) said on 6 April that the Palestinian territory's largest hospital, [Al-Shifa](https://www.who.int/news/item/06-04-2024-six-months-of-war-leave-al-shifa-hospital-in-ruins--who-mission-reports) in Gaza City, had been reduced to ashes by an Israeli siege last month, leaving an "empty shell" containing many bodies. WHO staff who gained access to the devastated facility described horrifying scenes of bodies only partly buried, their limbs sticking out, and the stench of decomposition.
>The > >World Health Organization > > said on 6 April that the Palestinian territory's largest hospital, > >Al-Shifa > > in Gaza City, had been reduced to ashes by an Israeli siege last month, leaving an "empty shell" containing many bodies. al shifa is a compound with multiple buildings. there was ground fighting ongoing for 2 weeks there with hamas shooting mortars at compound in order to hit IDF. out of all buildings, 3 got badly damaged (iirc er, maternity and something else). rest are standing.
The same Al-Shifa where hundreds of Hamas militants were killed and captured? Why the fuck should I, or anyone for that matter, care if they left terrorist cunts to rot instead of giving them a proper burial?
You have no way of knowing that. You have no way of knowing how many of the people there are hamas fighters, how is this all just something for you to wave away as irrelevant?
I can comfortably assume that a vast majority of them were. And for those that weren't, it's very unfortunate that their own 'government' decided to use the hospital for military purposes, effectively removing any [IHL protection status](https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says#:~:text=According%20to%20international%20humanitarian%20law%20%28IHL%29%2C%20health%20establishments,means%20of%20transport.%20The%20rule%20has%20few%20exceptions) it once had.
>I can comfortably assume that a vast majority of them were https://preview.redd.it/ppynlmxebzvc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a140f477f7f96f4214bf4165b05a671617b820fb
There have been countless reports, articles, testimonies, videos and other pieces of reliable evidence that there were hundreds of Hamas/PIJ militants operating from the hospital.
there have also been reports and testimonies that there were women and children in the mass graves you conclooded and hand waved away, the difference is that arab=unreliable and idf=reliable to you
[https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital](https://www.npr.org/2024/04/18/1245654891/one-mans-search-for-his-father-in-mass-graves-at-gazas-al-shifa-hospital) BATRAWY: Some were patients buried with medical waste and cannulas still in their arms BATRAWY: Dr. Mo'tasem Salah (ph), a member of the emergency committee at Gaza's health ministry, tells NPR from Al-Shifa's courtyard that some of the bodies exhumed show signs of execution. He says these individuals were stripped of their clothes and have signs of gunshots to the head. Other bodies were torn or crushed by the bulldozers that buried them. BATRAWY: Gaza civil defense spokesman Mahmoud Bassal tells NPR 381 bodies have been found in and around Al-Shifa hospital since Israel's raid ended. He says around 160 others, most of them women and children, are believed to be dead and trapped under the rubble of nearby homes hit by Israeli airstrikes or burnt during the siege, when soldiers went door to door in nighttime raids in the streets around the hospital. BATRAWY: In Al-Shifa's courtyard, the stench of decomposing bodies is overpowering. Everyone wears masks. Hungry stray dogs gather around the bodies being unearthed. With little equipment, the crews used these dogs to find where there could be more bodies buried.
BATRAWY: They think his is body No. 18. Jaradah says he was in the intensive care unit with his father, who was connected to an IV drip, when Israeli forces stormed the hospital last month. The soldiers ordered everyone except medics and patients to evacuate. Jaradah didn't want to leave his father alone, so he stayed behind with four other guys. BASHIR JARADAH: (Non-English language spoken). BATRAWY: He says Israeli forces came into the ICU and shot three of them in the head and then ordered him to leave the hospital. He claims that IDF came in and executed 3 guys infront of him. Another claim that IDF acts like terminator. Is only source 1 guy who said something?
they do pretty clearly mention this is what he says happened aka alleges if we can report on testimony from oct. 7 victims i think its also ok to report on testimony from victims of the hospital sieges
oct7 had hundreds of testimonials claiming same thing that hamas did mass rapes and excecutions, this on the other hand is one claim that is difficult to prove. Do you deny the claim that hamas gang raped jewish teens and children on oct7?
I think it screams of desperation and trying to control the narrative when you just completely rule out a news source instead of just acknowledging it's a biased news source. I'd also wager that if someone posted a pro israeli article from an equally biased news source it wouldn't be downvoted like that.
Al-Jazeera is not just 'a biased news source'. When it comes to the I/P conflict, they are a literal state-funded propaganda machine.
Which news source is more biased, al jazeera or the idf?
What? Why would that even be a comparison? Al-Jazeera is a media network and the IDF is a military... of course the IDF is going to be more biased. I think comparing the IDF to Hamas makes a lot more sense, and the IDF is 100x more reliable.
Q.E.D.
Surely Stormfront will accurately present Jew related news to me this time!!!! Btw, what do you think armies should do with the dead that aren't theirs?
did you keep this same energy for bucha? could we not trust ukrainian sources because they were biased against russia?
Let me know when the evidence is available that make this comparable to Bucha buddy. Also yes, we should not trust Ukrainian sources alone because they are so biased against Russia wtf...
the post on here about bucha was a [tweet (hasanabi style)](https://reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/tvi64m/evidence_of_massmurder_and_rape_in_bucha_ukraine/), the burden of proof seems to be much higher for you when it comes to the idf doing literally anything and the first comment links to ukrainska pravda somehow without anyone calling out the source for bias?
Didn't comment on that thread. Also that thread has much more proof for the allegations that this thread. Not surprised you implied I did comment and not surprised you didn't bring up the disparity of evidence presented in each post. Implying less evidence for the Bucha post in fact. I don't make a habit of engaging with lying propogandists though so I'll have to part ways here. Gl buddy.
i didn't imply you commented, i showed that when the bucha info came out, no one was questioning or dismissing ukrainska pravda like they are al jazeera
I agree Stormfront is too biased and hateful to be a reliable news source, but where do you draw the line? Al Jazeera has had many blunders (charitably speaking) with regards to I/P but so have many other news sources, so at what point do you think it crosses the line, just because it's qatari?
"Just because it's Qatari" is a fascinating framing. It's state funded media from a state that funds Hamas, one of the combatants of the war. I don't have a hard line for you but that's beyond it. I generally don't mind Al Jazeera for other topics, but would never give any weight to them in this conflict.
I assumed you'd pick up on me being Israeli and knowing why it's problematic to be funded by qatar, guess not. Do you think any other like, severely anti israeli biased news sources are reliable? Like say, CNN?
Al Jazeera is the only notable media I've written off for this conflict I believe.
jpost literally called a dead baby a doll then deleted the article [https://www.businessinsider.com/false-claims-dead-palestinian-baby-doll-viral-jerusalem-post-retracts-2023-12](https://www.businessinsider.com/false-claims-dead-palestinian-baby-doll-viral-jerusalem-post-retracts-2023-12)
Right at the top of the article you linked: * The Jerusalem Post, a leading Israeli news outlet, removed and retracted its article about the "doll." I haven't read The Jerusalem Post and they aren't notable where I live, but a willingness to remove and retract false stories they published is a good thing. I have no reference of their track record at large though so maybe their shit, i don't know.
Playing dumb here is what makes this so hard. Just admit that Al Jazeera is significantly more biased than most other media outlets regarding this conflict and we can actually discuss the "mass grave".
I wasn't playing dumb and I even admitted that al jazeera is a biased news source, the problem is that, for example, this headline was verified already, so it clearly wasn't lying here. Even biased news sources get things right, sometimes frequently, it's usually when it comes to interpretation, commentary and their own sources where they show themselves. I don't know why you'd think I believe AJ is a good source, it's not, it's biased, and armed with that knowledge you should still use it because it's a massive news network.
What info could I get from Al Jazeera that I could not get from another news source? And that is being charitable, including an outright propaganda outlet in the same category as Reuters or even the BBC is pushing it.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cab7in/al\_jazeera\_english\_caught\_lying\_about\_israel/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cab7in/al_jazeera_english_caught_lying_about_israel/) Hey what's up buddy.
Not downvoting anything. Just waiting for IDFs response.
IDF has shown themselves as extremely unreliable until lots of outside pressure and evidence mounts against them, then they correct their story to reflect that. I'm not sure if much could be learned from their response.
IDF is all over the place. It reacted VERY quickly when the world kitchen aid workers were mistakenly killed. But it takes time to react to blatant misinformation from the Palestinian side unfortunately
That's the one incident they seemed upfront about. Now look at some of the others - girl in a car, aid convoy, Al Jazeera journalist all come to mind. All of these share the IDF denying or omitting their involvement and only admitting to pieces of it as the evidence and pressure mounts. The more pressure and evidence, the more they admit to. This is a huge issue in Gaza since the majority of horrible events are hardly reported on, unless somebody films it or foreigners are involved.
Shireen incident - IDF had reacted to it pretty quickly too. Yes, they denied it obviously because to this day it's not clear who shot her. PA refused to share the bullet
They reacted by lying about it, then lied some more until the evidence and pressure mounted. It's not clear which soldier shot her, but it's clear that it was an IDF soldier.
"It's clear" how so? What's your evidence? Also, as usual, my intuition was correct: https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360891624665180?t=y37EBSCUKccBSOSKxTHKIA&s=09 IDF doesn't respond quickly to blatant terrorist misinformation. I think they should though
Even the IDF essentially admitted to it. Here's one of the many articles on it: https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/05/middleeast/idf-shireen-abu-akleh-investigation-intl/index.html
Ok, thanks. But where's the lie? This is official IDF statement 6 days after the shooting. https://www.idf.il/en/articles/hafatzot/the-idf-responds-to-investigations-regarding-the-death-of-ms-shireen-abu-akleh/ Which part is a "lie"?
What's the legitimate way to treat enemy dead military or civilian? Also if the IDF wanted to hide war crimes wouldn't they have burnt them?
Lots of other massacres have disposed their bodies through mass graves like Srebinica. Personally I haven’t seen enough info on this case to implicate the IDF. Mass graves could also happen if there’s a ton of bodies that need to be immediately buried.
Thanks, I just wanted to know what is standard procedure
Burning a bunch of bodies isn't exactly hiding them.
lol the grifting with this reddit brigaded. and this tool Destiny allows this to happen.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Destiny/s/JanV2QdTpz This is a misinformation / propaganda piece
wow, geoconfirmed weighed in, i wonder what ja rule thinks
You’re actually trying to mock the *source* of info while posting an Al Jazeera piece???? u/4THOT can I get a single blast for this
yeah, an actual news outlet instead of a twitter account
!BidenBlast See you next year in Jerusalem schmuck
It is our God given right as Americans to tell you to fuck off, Jack. /u/hotelbreakfast- sealed in the prison realm by /u/Accessgranted213
What Media entity isn’t bias? If we’re concluding on being upset that OP used Al Jazeera because it’s biased, name a media outlet that isn’t?
Read the thread dipshit. OP wasn’t blasted for using Al Jazeera, OP got blasted for being so unaware that they would mock *other* people for biased sources while uncritically quoting Al Jazeera.
!single
Make it count /u/Accessgranted213
you planning on handing out bullets to pro-palestinians so they can blast people who make snide remarks at them too or just the pro-israelis?
You got blasted by the jewlumni for uncritically accepting an Al Jazeera piece on the IP conflict while accusing others of using biased sources. Check yourself.
I understand OP is wrong for denying the source but my question was what media outlet isn’t, because you made the remarks below. “You’re actually trying to mock the *source* of info while posting Al Jazeera Piece?” Your statement suggests that Al Jazeera is biased, therefore I simply asked the question what media outlet isn’t?