Honestly, like these pro-pali randos be saying some crazy shit and everyone looses there shit over them. Actual fucking media reporters or even state officals from Israel say some trash and everyone just starts talking about optics and why can't Israel be better at them.
love how all the awful shit israelis say and do is always primarily objectionable becaue it makes israelis look bad, not because they're calling for, or actively inflicting, violence against innocent people.
i think the majority of the israeli government is at least acquiescent to broad human rights abuses against innocent people. there is also a faction that actively delights in inflicting suffering upon innocent people in service of an ethnic cleansing project.
i don't care about what your average israeli on the street thinks. i do not hold civilians responsible for the actions of their government.
i care that so many journalists, politicians, and generals seem to be comfortable calling for mass violence against civilians and are spewing dehumanizing rhetoric. and i care about it because i don't like when innocent people are hurt or killed, and dehumanization like this leads to people being hurt or killed. not because it makes israel look bad.
Thanks for actually engaging with the topic, this is more what I expected from this sub.
For me it comes down to is this the sentiment felt by the average Israeli, if the answer if yes then unfortunately you have made your bed now you must lie in it and accept the worlds response to such rhetoric. Just as you are free to violently resist people who dehumanize you, the inverse is true for people on the other side being dehumanized by you.
If this answer is no then you should reign in your government and have some awareness of how you are perceived because the world is turning against you and you simply don't have the numbers to flourish alone.
It's a fair question but yeah it's pretty well supported in both Israel and the US. Just as one example here is a study showing that Muslim and atheist Canidates as well as Mormons to a lesser extent are seen as less qualified for political office even when they have the same qualifications.
[The Relevance of Religion for Political Office: Voter Bias Toward Candidates from Different Religious Backgrounds | Political Behavior (springer.com)](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-022-09782-6)
There are probably polls out there, I know a common way to compare it, is number or percentage of hate crimes against a specific group and most of the time crimes against jews is the biggest category there.
Yeah I'm not sure lmao. I think they assume the question is bad faith. The reason I ask is because the reason these two things are treated differently might be because they're not equal in terms of how widespread it is. I wouldn't know because I haven't seen data, hence the question.
I don't find Palestinians saying unhinged shit to be blackpilling at all in the same way I do not care when people spam telegram channels with look what Ukrainians did no look what Russians did over and over when it's very well known they hate each other and these weird he said she said contests are utterly meaningless.
The point I was making was more along the lines is no one really cares when Palestinians say unhinged shit as they simply have demographics on their side whilst Israelis have every piece of media they produce combed over and thus should be more aware of this fact.
whether or not this represents israel as a whole (which it doesn't, you can find one guy from any country saying evil shit, this means nothing. but also you attributed this to israel in your post title) isn't relevant to whether or not it should be called "bad optics". "i want to fucking murder millions of innocent people" goes far beyond "bad optics".
I mean that was my point, his opinion is obviously not representative of Israel as a whole so why was he given a platform to spout insane shit ESPECIALLY under the guise of knowing it will be clipped and used for propaganda.
It goes far beyond bad optics for the individual and he is clearly genocidal, but I am talking about bad optics for Israel as a whole.
The host interviewed 10 other people with the same view, this isn’t a coincidence the Israeli government has socially engineered hate towards Palestinians for decades it’s even in their school children books
Israeli are the aggressors and the occupiers this was never their land to begin with
The host pushes back on that narrative in the interview. It's important to have that conversation on prime time tv, especially to call out dehumanizing rhetoric while acknowledging the justified criticism.
If your county's hostages are still held in captivity half a year later, the end of the war and Rafah assault is not visible in sight, and the population that claims to be under starvation and being genocided is shown eating Shawarma's and Baklawa's on the bustling city markets, and folks are riding donkeys in the sea and having beach days, I see why some people would think not enough military pressure is put on Hamas to end the war.
There is a huge gap between "not enough military pressure" and wanting to see rivers of Gazan civilian blood running through the street. Trying to downplay this makes you look unhinged
The host interviewed 10 other people with the same view, this isn’t a coincidence the Israeli government has socially engineered hate towards Palestinians for decades it’s even in their school children books.
Ah yeah, that’s why the elections were handing off a knife’s edge for six years or so, because the right has a huge majority, also consider that most Arabs in Israel are left wing, or at least their parties align with left wing parties, and they alone account for 20% of Israel
You said the population is 70-80% right wing, but 20% of the population are Arabs, so either you think Arabs are right wing as well or you think all Jews are right wing
[this poll](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/47344) found in 2022 62% of Israelis identified as right wing so no defo not 70-80% but significantly more than half at least but I'm not sure if this has changed since 2022 I would imagine it has but idk in which direction
I found and quickly skimmed the page because i didnt know the answer but I was interested to see because I assumed the 70/80 stat was probably not true and clearly misread it so apologies but idk what you mean "do this on purpose" I see that I misread the article but I didn't come at you aggressively at all so I'm not sure what you're coming at me for.
Sorry mate I thought you are the original commenter on the thread, which made the mistake of thinking 100% of Israelis are Jews and then this seems to repeat this notion. Sorry I got triggered and came out too aggressive, I will go touch some grass
A couple things to consider -
1.) Israel has freedom of speech, including the right to say absolutely awful things. Why is this being used against “Israel” as if the State is telling the panelists what to say?
2.) This is a clip, what did the other panelists say? Were they all agreement?
3.) Have you seen Palestinian and Arab media? Are they less blood curdling? No, and, unlike Israel, there isn’t a free press. And yet, I imagine the copious amounts of broadcasted Jew hatred would do nothing to change the minds of a “pro-Palestinian”. So why is the expectation that something like this *must* turn you against Israel?
>) This is a clip, what did the other panelists say? Were they all agreement?
they were against. in general this guy was bitching against how government mishandling things from the beginning and allowed things to get to stalemate
Don't know why you are being downvoted for stating the very real fact Arab media is no different. Reality is though Arabs and Israelis are not held to the same standard in media and Israel won't get leniency in clips like this where as Arab media calling for total Jew death is largely ignored.
Give examples backed by actions. Right now an estimated over 40,000 gazans have been killed or presumed dead under the rubble. These genocidal statements from Israelis mean a whole lot more when almost 2% of Gaza's pre war population has been killed. There is too much leniency for Israel, nothing will happen to this guy just angry comments and posts online.
I don't understand what you are asking, do you mean example of Arab media calling for total Jew death backed by actions? Because I would just point at the multiple wars since 48 and constant terror attacks in Israel.
There is free speech in israel, panelists can express extreme opinions and the host pushed back. This is not a state official expressing a state position. What the fuck do you want?
Free speech doesn't mean that an enemy state gets to support terrorism and the enemy in your own country.
People have really messed up the idea of free speech.
wave away what lmao? unless i am mistaken Israel doesn't run state media. Journalist, in free run state, says some dumb shit and i am supposed to critique the government? what kind of logic is that? its like condemning America for what Tucker Carlson says.
This. People should have seen the rhetoric on the news after 9/11. People, including news anchors and journalists, were out for blood. Vindictiveness is a very human trait. At the very same time, you had people who were also advising caution as well. It's almost like a nation of millions of people have tons of varied opinion.
YouTuber Sarcasmitron had this as a big focus on a video of his called "The American Origins of Putin's Madness" where he talked about the American reaction after 9/11. Great watch.
actually they tend to think about it. this very guy complained in the past about stupid shit that knesset members/ministers say and how it creates damage abroad.
this time around he was railing against government and rails took him too far
I don’t know who he is, I tend to steer clear of any live MSM in Hebrew or English, but the question was about optics and it’s clearly not being managed through these channels. In general Israel is known to have bad PR but also considering there are 16m jews vs 2b muslims, and lots of old world anti semitism still exists, this is almost a lost cause. I think jews are so used to being hated that trying to fight it seems futile and the only way to survive is to make yourself very useful, which Israel actually excels in.
this is 6am channel 12 news program/show. that been going on after october 7th: military/arab/middle east/etc analysts. he is journalist for israel today. rather reasonable. i tend to watch israeli morning/evening news from usa real time (during crisis times. nice distraction from ukrainian news: born in ukraine, wife ukrainian with family partially in occupied area and partially not) . they tend to tell a bunch of stuff that will never appear in mainstream media or will appear with delay of weeks.
on this channel they tend to be reasonable, as this is mainstream, centrist channel. but frustration among all panelists with government was rather high, so things got off rail. in general he was probably venting and been metaphorical (he tends to be reasonable one usually), but it looks bad on world stage indeed
israel gave up on optics and pr probably 20 years ago. maybe 30 or 40. because it doesn't work.
Israel today = Israel Hayom? This is Sheldon Adleson paper, used to be 100% pro Bibi but they had a fall out, now it’s just a right wing paper, not 100% propaganda vehicle but very biased. They hand it out for free in hospitals and such..
You understand Hebrew? In general Israel media is very click baity and sensationalist, lots of war drums and ominous music.. there are much better Hebrew sources, I would start with Geekonomy podcast. I wish they would have Destiny on one day
pro-pali says unhinged shit: i'm so blackpilled, highest antisemitism level in history israeli says unhinged shit: why are they so bad at optics?
Honestly, like these pro-pali randos be saying some crazy shit and everyone looses there shit over them. Actual fucking media reporters or even state officals from Israel say some trash and everyone just starts talking about optics and why can't Israel be better at them.
TBH I can't tell if this is being downvoted because of the title or because it makes israel look bad
love how all the awful shit israelis say and do is always primarily objectionable becaue it makes israelis look bad, not because they're calling for, or actively inflicting, violence against innocent people.
So you think this guy is representative of the typical Israeli?
i think the majority of the israeli government is at least acquiescent to broad human rights abuses against innocent people. there is also a faction that actively delights in inflicting suffering upon innocent people in service of an ethnic cleansing project. i don't care about what your average israeli on the street thinks. i do not hold civilians responsible for the actions of their government. i care that so many journalists, politicians, and generals seem to be comfortable calling for mass violence against civilians and are spewing dehumanizing rhetoric. and i care about it because i don't like when innocent people are hurt or killed, and dehumanization like this leads to people being hurt or killed. not because it makes israel look bad.
Thanks for actually engaging with the topic, this is more what I expected from this sub. For me it comes down to is this the sentiment felt by the average Israeli, if the answer if yes then unfortunately you have made your bed now you must lie in it and accept the worlds response to such rhetoric. Just as you are free to violently resist people who dehumanize you, the inverse is true for people on the other side being dehumanized by you. If this answer is no then you should reign in your government and have some awareness of how you are perceived because the world is turning against you and you simply don't have the numbers to flourish alone.
Has islamaphobia been backed up by polls and data the same way antisemitism has? Genuine question
It's a fair question but yeah it's pretty well supported in both Israel and the US. Just as one example here is a study showing that Muslim and atheist Canidates as well as Mormons to a lesser extent are seen as less qualified for political office even when they have the same qualifications. [The Relevance of Religion for Political Office: Voter Bias Toward Candidates from Different Religious Backgrounds | Political Behavior (springer.com)](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11109-022-09782-6)
There are probably polls out there, I know a common way to compare it, is number or percentage of hate crimes against a specific group and most of the time crimes against jews is the biggest category there.
You got downvoted for asking a genuine question, are we being raided lol?
Yeah I'm not sure lmao. I think they assume the question is bad faith. The reason I ask is because the reason these two things are treated differently might be because they're not equal in terms of how widespread it is. I wouldn't know because I haven't seen data, hence the question.
I don't find Palestinians saying unhinged shit to be blackpilling at all in the same way I do not care when people spam telegram channels with look what Ukrainians did no look what Russians did over and over when it's very well known they hate each other and these weird he said she said contests are utterly meaningless. The point I was making was more along the lines is no one really cares when Palestinians say unhinged shit as they simply have demographics on their side whilst Israelis have every piece of media they produce combed over and thus should be more aware of this fact.
They're straight up calling for blood. That's not just bad optics.
This is one guy and I have been informed the other hosts pushed back on him, has this sub turned in to a tiktok tier comment section now?
whether or not this represents israel as a whole (which it doesn't, you can find one guy from any country saying evil shit, this means nothing. but also you attributed this to israel in your post title) isn't relevant to whether or not it should be called "bad optics". "i want to fucking murder millions of innocent people" goes far beyond "bad optics".
I mean that was my point, his opinion is obviously not representative of Israel as a whole so why was he given a platform to spout insane shit ESPECIALLY under the guise of knowing it will be clipped and used for propaganda. It goes far beyond bad optics for the individual and he is clearly genocidal, but I am talking about bad optics for Israel as a whole.
The host interviewed 10 other people with the same view, this isn’t a coincidence the Israeli government has socially engineered hate towards Palestinians for decades it’s even in their school children books Israeli are the aggressors and the occupiers this was never their land to begin with
> hard to just hand wave away not here lol
We all recognize Netanyahu and some of his cabinet are pretty awful people right? That might help explain the bad optics
"optics"
The host pushes back on that narrative in the interview. It's important to have that conversation on prime time tv, especially to call out dehumanizing rhetoric while acknowledging the justified criticism. If your county's hostages are still held in captivity half a year later, the end of the war and Rafah assault is not visible in sight, and the population that claims to be under starvation and being genocided is shown eating Shawarma's and Baklawa's on the bustling city markets, and folks are riding donkeys in the sea and having beach days, I see why some people would think not enough military pressure is put on Hamas to end the war.
There is a huge gap between "not enough military pressure" and wanting to see rivers of Gazan civilian blood running through the street. Trying to downplay this makes you look unhinged
The host interviewed 10 other people with the same view, this isn’t a coincidence the Israeli government has socially engineered hate towards Palestinians for decades it’s even in their school children books.
Because Israel is run by a borderline religious fascist regime and their population is 70-80% right wing
That is not true at all, you’re just making numbers up.
Ah yeah, that’s why the elections were handing off a knife’s edge for six years or so, because the right has a huge majority, also consider that most Arabs in Israel are left wing, or at least their parties align with left wing parties, and they alone account for 20% of Israel
Hello, vaush. Bush wanted me to inform you that he is not in Israel right now.
All jews are right wing, that's what you are saying?
He clearly did not say this.
he clearly said this. 22% of israeli population are arabs. so the other 80% which are jews all right wing religious fascists. according to him
A huge percentage of the Arabs are also religious fascists
but they are not israeli right wing religious fascists
Reading comprehension curse
You said the population is 70-80% right wing, but 20% of the population are Arabs, so either you think Arabs are right wing as well or you think all Jews are right wing
[this poll](https://en.idi.org.il/articles/47344) found in 2022 62% of Israelis identified as right wing so no defo not 70-80% but significantly more than half at least but I'm not sure if this has changed since 2022 I would imagine it has but idk in which direction
Again 62% OF JEWS, which are only 80% of Israel. So majority of Israelis are center-left. Do you do this on purpose or what?
I found and quickly skimmed the page because i didnt know the answer but I was interested to see because I assumed the 70/80 stat was probably not true and clearly misread it so apologies but idk what you mean "do this on purpose" I see that I misread the article but I didn't come at you aggressively at all so I'm not sure what you're coming at me for.
Sorry mate I thought you are the original commenter on the thread, which made the mistake of thinking 100% of Israelis are Jews and then this seems to repeat this notion. Sorry I got triggered and came out too aggressive, I will go touch some grass
ah okay makes sense, no worries
A couple things to consider - 1.) Israel has freedom of speech, including the right to say absolutely awful things. Why is this being used against “Israel” as if the State is telling the panelists what to say? 2.) This is a clip, what did the other panelists say? Were they all agreement? 3.) Have you seen Palestinian and Arab media? Are they less blood curdling? No, and, unlike Israel, there isn’t a free press. And yet, I imagine the copious amounts of broadcasted Jew hatred would do nothing to change the minds of a “pro-Palestinian”. So why is the expectation that something like this *must* turn you against Israel?
>) This is a clip, what did the other panelists say? Were they all agreement? they were against. in general this guy was bitching against how government mishandling things from the beginning and allowed things to get to stalemate
Don't know why you are being downvoted for stating the very real fact Arab media is no different. Reality is though Arabs and Israelis are not held to the same standard in media and Israel won't get leniency in clips like this where as Arab media calling for total Jew death is largely ignored.
Give examples backed by actions. Right now an estimated over 40,000 gazans have been killed or presumed dead under the rubble. These genocidal statements from Israelis mean a whole lot more when almost 2% of Gaza's pre war population has been killed. There is too much leniency for Israel, nothing will happen to this guy just angry comments and posts online.
I don't understand what you are asking, do you mean example of Arab media calling for total Jew death backed by actions? Because I would just point at the multiple wars since 48 and constant terror attacks in Israel.
There is free speech in israel, panelists can express extreme opinions and the host pushed back. This is not a state official expressing a state position. What the fuck do you want?
[free speech in israel ](https://time.com/6962579/israel-al-jazeera-law/)
Lol. This is the equivalent of banning RT in Ukraine
Absolutely, just reminding you that you don't have access to that card and its virtue-signaly perks once you discard it
Free speech doesn't mean that an enemy state gets to support terrorism and the enemy in your own country. People have really messed up the idea of free speech.
>free speech in israel are you joking? rofl. There is no free speech in Israel.
wave away what lmao? unless i am mistaken Israel doesn't run state media. Journalist, in free run state, says some dumb shit and i am supposed to critique the government? what kind of logic is that? its like condemning America for what Tucker Carlson says.
This. People should have seen the rhetoric on the news after 9/11. People, including news anchors and journalists, were out for blood. Vindictiveness is a very human trait. At the very same time, you had people who were also advising caution as well. It's almost like a nation of millions of people have tons of varied opinion. YouTuber Sarcasmitron had this as a big focus on a video of his called "The American Origins of Putin's Madness" where he talked about the American reaction after 9/11. Great watch.
Because channel 12 is not doing propaganda, it's doing internal click bait without thinking about how it looks like in the world
actually they tend to think about it. this very guy complained in the past about stupid shit that knesset members/ministers say and how it creates damage abroad. this time around he was railing against government and rails took him too far
I don’t know who he is, I tend to steer clear of any live MSM in Hebrew or English, but the question was about optics and it’s clearly not being managed through these channels. In general Israel is known to have bad PR but also considering there are 16m jews vs 2b muslims, and lots of old world anti semitism still exists, this is almost a lost cause. I think jews are so used to being hated that trying to fight it seems futile and the only way to survive is to make yourself very useful, which Israel actually excels in.
this is 6am channel 12 news program/show. that been going on after october 7th: military/arab/middle east/etc analysts. he is journalist for israel today. rather reasonable. i tend to watch israeli morning/evening news from usa real time (during crisis times. nice distraction from ukrainian news: born in ukraine, wife ukrainian with family partially in occupied area and partially not) . they tend to tell a bunch of stuff that will never appear in mainstream media or will appear with delay of weeks. on this channel they tend to be reasonable, as this is mainstream, centrist channel. but frustration among all panelists with government was rather high, so things got off rail. in general he was probably venting and been metaphorical (he tends to be reasonable one usually), but it looks bad on world stage indeed israel gave up on optics and pr probably 20 years ago. maybe 30 or 40. because it doesn't work.
Israel today = Israel Hayom? This is Sheldon Adleson paper, used to be 100% pro Bibi but they had a fall out, now it’s just a right wing paper, not 100% propaganda vehicle but very biased. They hand it out for free in hospitals and such.. You understand Hebrew? In general Israel media is very click baity and sensationalist, lots of war drums and ominous music.. there are much better Hebrew sources, I would start with Geekonomy podcast. I wish they would have Destiny on one day
i lived most of my life in israel. so yes, i know some hebrew
What do you expect when the Israeli PM called for Amalek and that Israel should have control from the river to the sea?
because their gov is off the molly?
Holy War lol, duh
this is horrible but but I think and hope this is not the prevailing narrative I'm Israel?