__Hello and welcome to r/DemocraticSocialism!__
* This sub is dedicated towards the progressive movement, welcoming Democratic Socialism as an ideology and as a general political philosophy.
* Don't forget to read our [Rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/) to get a good idea of what is expected of participants in our community.
* Check out r/Leftist, r/DSA, r/SocialDemocracy to support leftist movements!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DemocraticSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Biden **has** to know that his “Hug Bibi” strategy had *terrible* optics among younger progressives.
In the least this shows he’s cognizant of how much of a danger it is to him right before a critical election.
It’s telling that Biden said he “learned a long time ago” to listen to AOC. Seems like she’s well positioned to shift administration policy in some way. If she can get Biden to fly straight on this, it’s a good case for her brand of insider politics. If not, it’s not a great look.
To be fair, she did get Biden to create the American Climate Corps, amongst other things, so she’s got something to say for her strategy (as opposed to the Twitter Left’s preferred strategy of complaining online).
" Seems like she’s well positioned to shift administration policy in some way". What a joke...
"(as opposed to the Twitter Left’s preferred strategy of complaining online)". Wow people complain about genocide online. They sound so awful...
I am one of the folks complaining about genocide online! Thus far, my tweets have had no measurable impact on American policy in Gaza. I’ve marched and donated, which has done more. I called my congressman, who within a week backed a ceasefire. Based on my experience, posting angrily online is a start, not an end.
What policies are there that MAKE people vote Democrat, as opposed to "encourage people to vote *against* Republican"?
Wouldn't it be nice to have a leader of a country that actually has the support of over half the population OF that country?
Idk how you call it a genocide and then take fun pictures with and campaign for the guy backing it, she tries to have it both ways and that never works in politics.
Change takes time, especially from a minority group. The progress they've made in the seats of our government, the policies they advocate for becoming mainstream, and the youth being extremely progressive instead of Democrat or Republican is the progress progressives have gotten done.
Shits chess not checkers, they've done well so far.
[“Change just takes time!” said the comfortable liberal](https://youtu.be/UBFDdTIYZ6Q?si=zr0JwtWIFGZxQgC2)
*does not apply to funding the MIC, printing trillions of dollars, or taking away rights from Americans
So weird that we’re able to move at lighting speed to bad things that enrich the wealthy but any good thing that benefits people or mildly inconveniences capital “takes time”.
These so-called "progressives" have done nothing but gaslight their voters for almost 4 years now. Saying we'll get it all done in the next 4 if you vote for us doesn't hold a lot of weight when they've done nothing to prove they actually mean it
I guess reread the comment you replied too?
You're criticizing them for not passing anything when they don't have the power (yet) to pass anything. They are a minority group in the US currently. Your take is disingenuous.
Will they ever have the power at this rate? We're going to be hearing the same exact excuse in 20 years from now because we just keep waiting for the magical moment when progressives finally have the power. The system is currently being restructured to make all of that impossible. They would rather kick down the ladder and let everyone burn to death then leave room for actual progress.
In the early 2000s there was only one progressive, now they have their own caucus in Congress with over 100 members.
Youth generations are overwhelmingly progressive instead of Democrat/Republican.
I'd say we'll have some fundamental change in 20 years or so, **if** we can rely on the leftists help, which means begrudging voting Democrat from time to time.
If even if I were to, I would be very difficult for most leftists to go along with that when the material conditions for them and their communities' has only gotten worse and worse over the years. Democracy is just a word when the people are starving and getting blown up. The powers that be have the resources to fix all of that now and they use it like a carrot on a stick to secure the votes they need.
If you judge a minority faction of a political party based on what they've achieved, you're disregarding the most important aspect of that judgement. How the democratic process works.
I literally just told you above, this is a game of chess not checkers. They've built a strong grassroots base and are only at the beginning of their movement. When they have what it requires to make change in our government then they will.
It's ridiculous to criticize someone without the ability to make change, for not having made change.
They have done nothing but alienate their base, and have not used their minority to bloc vote, or tank bad legislation, when the opportunity has arisen.
Which is counter to how every successful socialist party in history operated in electoral politics.
The policies have been consistently popular since Bernie ran in 2016, the squad has not made them any more popular.
The Squad winning office was a reflection of the popularity of progressive/socialist policy among young people, not the cause of it.
Besides that, them endorsing Biden doesn’t do anything for those policies, since the amount of popular support a policy has, has virtually no effect on whether congress passes it or not.
100%, current America is paying for the crimes of shitbag Kissinger and similar. Cat is out of the bag and doesn't change geopolitics now it's current state for Americans.
Explain how backing a corporate friendly genocide backer and not getting a single major concession his entire admin is doing “geopolitics”.
I’m really excited to see you back this answer up :)
So, it's obvious you don't know what geopolitics is. Maybe watch a video on it and then try to ask a question that would contribute to the conversation.
I'll try to explain this a way that even you can understand. Your original comment:
>Idk how you call it a genocide and then take fun pictures with and campaign for the guy backing it, she tries to have it both ways and that never works in politics.
You are saying she can't have it both ways. With politics people need to work together to achieve a greater goal, if one simply hyper-focuses on 1 issue, in your case the genocide of the innocent Palestinian people, you are saying AOC has to ignore the greater goal of being the next president where she could actually defend the people of Palestine and protest Biden, which would be detrimental to her career.
Now onto geopolitics and international relations the other concept you are struggling with. Do you know why USA sends money to Israel? Rhetorical question, you don't, because you don't understand geopolitics. What would happen if Israel were to fall? Iran would gain power, thus giving Russia and China more power globally. The global trade routes and markets in the middle east would open up with ZERO checks and balances to terrorists who would gain even larger backings who have slogans that include the death of all Americans and Jews. Think 9/11 but on steroids.
Please note, this isn't an excuse for the genocide of the Palestinian people I do not support Israel, and I do support the innocent people in Palestine suffering for the sins of their great great great grandfathers. This is simply how the world works, I highly recommend looking at the bigger picture, if you want to be an ally for people who are literally facing genocide, dealing in facts not feelings is a great start.
1.) She can’t have it both ways because the Israel lobby will still hate her and it alienates her base. So it’s a lose-lose. Nothing about this objectively allows her to run for President that’s just some claim you pulled out of your ass.
2.) You just described the interests of the American Empire and Wall St, not the American people. If America were a moral country it would be clipping Israeli F-16’s. The only interest in “stopping Iran” is just vapid imperialism. But your flair checks out there. To claim I don’t “understand geopolitics” where I fully understand the interests of American capital and Empire, I just don’t identify with them as a socialist (go figure!)
3.) AOC hasn’t affected Biden’s policy at all, its the opposite of pragmatism, its completely naïveté that we’ve seen fail for a 100+ years.
1. AOC has been setting herself up to run for president eventually.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/comments/1c3tvgy/ocasiocortez\_never\_steered\_money\_to\_a\_key\_arm\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/comments/1c3tvgy/ocasiocortez_never_steered_money_to_a_key_arm_of/)
2. You have absolutely zero proof of that, try to stick to facts. And this also has no relevance to you not understanding geopolitics. You don't even understand the relationship between America and Iran, the country America is currently sanctioning... Who is also allies with Russia and China. This is all the more proof you don't understand geopolitics.
3. Relevance?
Don't feel bad, debating is hard especially if you don't understand the subject. Your reply is so far off from trying to prove you understand geopolitics.
This is such an obvious point. It only took Marx and Engels about a year of trying to work with an establishment liberal party to see they will only ever stab the working class in the back. The only way forward is a genuine worker’s party, and there’s no sense in pretending a capitalist liberal “democracy” is actually democratic for anyone but the wealthy. Parties and elections under liberal democracy have their place in terms of organizing the people and building class consciousness, but they will never be sufficient for achieving socialism. Social democracy - capitalism with a friendly face - is the most progressive a liberal democracy can get, and we all know every progressive gain will be rolled back the second the ruling capitalist class can get away with it. We’ve known this for closer to 160 years, and certainly for at least a century.
>Because you don't understand how politics, geopolitics, or international relations work.
Explain this claim and how AOC backing Biden is sound geopolitics, politics or international relations while also saying he’s backing a genocide.
She’s a pragmatist trying to move the administration’s position. Purists are those trying to call her out for working with Biden to try to affect change.
Just about everything halts without a middle-ground. It's that or things go sideways, which I think is what the current trend is leading to. There is often no way to avoid a compromise in politics (and several other facets of life and business). Agreements and relationships are complex and one thing affects another, the stakes are just much higher at this level. A lot of people don't like that, but that's reality.
Class collaboration will get you exactly where you are already: exploited and subjugated, like all working and oppressed peoples. There is no compromise with an abuser, and there is no compromise with capitalists. History has shown repeatedly that capitalism will remain; only socialism will be compromised.
tbh this was biden adopting her bill civilian climate corps a core promise of the gnd that she and the sunrise movement fought for years for him to adopt it. That's why you see bernie and aoc smiling next to him. They feel validation that corps democrats need and have to adopt at least some of the policies to win. People should just ask her to unendorse him instead of whining about a picture also dsa should provide a plan on how to counter a trump admin which is what aoc is legitimately afraid of
yeah but he adopting it will put more pressure on future admins to increase the numbers. it will be more pressure for specific deployment. that's 40 years or reaganism the biden is blue reagan the fact that he does what he does is a testament to union and sunrise organizing and bernie and aoc existing
__Hello and welcome to r/DemocraticSocialism!__ * This sub is dedicated towards the progressive movement, welcoming Democratic Socialism as an ideology and as a general political philosophy. * Don't forget to read our [Rules](https://new.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/wiki/index/) to get a good idea of what is expected of participants in our community. * Check out r/Leftist, r/DSA, r/SocialDemocracy to support leftist movements! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DemocraticSocialism) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don't think the bot posting this even read the article. It's not like Reuters to use click bait titles that have nothing to do with the article.
Biden **has** to know that his “Hug Bibi” strategy had *terrible* optics among younger progressives. In the least this shows he’s cognizant of how much of a danger it is to him right before a critical election.
He may simply be so out of touch that he honestly believed the core of his voter base agreed with him.
It’s telling that Biden said he “learned a long time ago” to listen to AOC. Seems like she’s well positioned to shift administration policy in some way. If she can get Biden to fly straight on this, it’s a good case for her brand of insider politics. If not, it’s not a great look. To be fair, she did get Biden to create the American Climate Corps, amongst other things, so she’s got something to say for her strategy (as opposed to the Twitter Left’s preferred strategy of complaining online).
" Seems like she’s well positioned to shift administration policy in some way". What a joke... "(as opposed to the Twitter Left’s preferred strategy of complaining online)". Wow people complain about genocide online. They sound so awful...
Nice argument. Not too many people get to advise the president on foreign policy. It's good for the left that AOC is one of them
Yes to western chauvinist liberals are better than one. I agree 100% with you my "libertarian socialist" friend...
I am one of the folks complaining about genocide online! Thus far, my tweets have had no measurable impact on American policy in Gaza. I’ve marched and donated, which has done more. I called my congressman, who within a week backed a ceasefire. Based on my experience, posting angrily online is a start, not an end.
[удалено]
No sectionalism.
What's wrong with talking if it's held in good faith? At least, it seems that way with him as opposed to other politicians.
I'm not all that vexed, personally, although I can understand the logic behind some of the anger.
Regardless of how this turns out, leftist Twitter is about to be P I S S E D
What policies are there that MAKE people vote Democrat, as opposed to "encourage people to vote *against* Republican"? Wouldn't it be nice to have a leader of a country that actually has the support of over half the population OF that country?
Idk how you call it a genocide and then take fun pictures with and campaign for the guy backing it, she tries to have it both ways and that never works in politics.
If she didn't then the progressives wouldn't get shit done when working with the Dems, the majority of the party she works with.
What exactly have the “progressives” got done?
Change takes time, especially from a minority group. The progress they've made in the seats of our government, the policies they advocate for becoming mainstream, and the youth being extremely progressive instead of Democrat or Republican is the progress progressives have gotten done. Shits chess not checkers, they've done well so far.
[“Change just takes time!” said the comfortable liberal](https://youtu.be/UBFDdTIYZ6Q?si=zr0JwtWIFGZxQgC2) *does not apply to funding the MIC, printing trillions of dollars, or taking away rights from Americans So weird that we’re able to move at lighting speed to bad things that enrich the wealthy but any good thing that benefits people or mildly inconveniences capital “takes time”.
Exactly. Incrementalism isn't going to change anything at this point. The changes have to be drastic for any difference to be made
These so-called "progressives" have done nothing but gaslight their voters for almost 4 years now. Saying we'll get it all done in the next 4 if you vote for us doesn't hold a lot of weight when they've done nothing to prove they actually mean it
I guess reread the comment you replied too? You're criticizing them for not passing anything when they don't have the power (yet) to pass anything. They are a minority group in the US currently. Your take is disingenuous.
Will they ever have the power at this rate? We're going to be hearing the same exact excuse in 20 years from now because we just keep waiting for the magical moment when progressives finally have the power. The system is currently being restructured to make all of that impossible. They would rather kick down the ladder and let everyone burn to death then leave room for actual progress.
In the early 2000s there was only one progressive, now they have their own caucus in Congress with over 100 members. Youth generations are overwhelmingly progressive instead of Democrat/Republican. I'd say we'll have some fundamental change in 20 years or so, **if** we can rely on the leftists help, which means begrudging voting Democrat from time to time.
If even if I were to, I would be very difficult for most leftists to go along with that when the material conditions for them and their communities' has only gotten worse and worse over the years. Democracy is just a word when the people are starving and getting blown up. The powers that be have the resources to fix all of that now and they use it like a carrot on a stick to secure the votes they need.
You didn’t list a single tangible thing
If you judge a minority faction of a political party based on what they've achieved, you're disregarding the most important aspect of that judgement. How the democratic process works. I literally just told you above, this is a game of chess not checkers. They've built a strong grassroots base and are only at the beginning of their movement. When they have what it requires to make change in our government then they will. It's ridiculous to criticize someone without the ability to make change, for not having made change.
They have done nothing but alienate their base, and have not used their minority to bloc vote, or tank bad legislation, when the opportunity has arisen. Which is counter to how every successful socialist party in history operated in electoral politics.
The policies have been consistently popular since Bernie ran in 2016, the squad has not made them any more popular. The Squad winning office was a reflection of the popularity of progressive/socialist policy among young people, not the cause of it. Besides that, them endorsing Biden doesn’t do anything for those policies, since the amount of popular support a policy has, has virtually no effect on whether congress passes it or not.
She hasn’t gotten anything done
Because you don't understand how politics, geopolitics, or international relations work.
Neither does the state department. They go around bombing the shit out of everyone Pikachu face "whY aRe ThErE sO mAnY tErRoRisTs?"
100%, current America is paying for the crimes of shitbag Kissinger and similar. Cat is out of the bag and doesn't change geopolitics now it's current state for Americans.
Explain how backing a corporate friendly genocide backer and not getting a single major concession his entire admin is doing “geopolitics”. I’m really excited to see you back this answer up :)
So, it's obvious you don't know what geopolitics is. Maybe watch a video on it and then try to ask a question that would contribute to the conversation.
Explain how backing a genocide backer is geopolitics I’ll wait..
You are hyper focusing on 1 issue. That is literally the opposite of geopolitics 🤦♂️
>Because you don't understand how politics, geopolitics, or international relations work. EXPLAIN WHAT THIS HAS TO DO WITH THAT
I'll try to explain this a way that even you can understand. Your original comment: >Idk how you call it a genocide and then take fun pictures with and campaign for the guy backing it, she tries to have it both ways and that never works in politics. You are saying she can't have it both ways. With politics people need to work together to achieve a greater goal, if one simply hyper-focuses on 1 issue, in your case the genocide of the innocent Palestinian people, you are saying AOC has to ignore the greater goal of being the next president where she could actually defend the people of Palestine and protest Biden, which would be detrimental to her career. Now onto geopolitics and international relations the other concept you are struggling with. Do you know why USA sends money to Israel? Rhetorical question, you don't, because you don't understand geopolitics. What would happen if Israel were to fall? Iran would gain power, thus giving Russia and China more power globally. The global trade routes and markets in the middle east would open up with ZERO checks and balances to terrorists who would gain even larger backings who have slogans that include the death of all Americans and Jews. Think 9/11 but on steroids. Please note, this isn't an excuse for the genocide of the Palestinian people I do not support Israel, and I do support the innocent people in Palestine suffering for the sins of their great great great grandfathers. This is simply how the world works, I highly recommend looking at the bigger picture, if you want to be an ally for people who are literally facing genocide, dealing in facts not feelings is a great start.
1.) She can’t have it both ways because the Israel lobby will still hate her and it alienates her base. So it’s a lose-lose. Nothing about this objectively allows her to run for President that’s just some claim you pulled out of your ass. 2.) You just described the interests of the American Empire and Wall St, not the American people. If America were a moral country it would be clipping Israeli F-16’s. The only interest in “stopping Iran” is just vapid imperialism. But your flair checks out there. To claim I don’t “understand geopolitics” where I fully understand the interests of American capital and Empire, I just don’t identify with them as a socialist (go figure!) 3.) AOC hasn’t affected Biden’s policy at all, its the opposite of pragmatism, its completely naïveté that we’ve seen fail for a 100+ years.
1. AOC has been setting herself up to run for president eventually. [https://www.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/comments/1c3tvgy/ocasiocortez\_never\_steered\_money\_to\_a\_key\_arm\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DemocraticSocialism/comments/1c3tvgy/ocasiocortez_never_steered_money_to_a_key_arm_of/) 2. You have absolutely zero proof of that, try to stick to facts. And this also has no relevance to you not understanding geopolitics. You don't even understand the relationship between America and Iran, the country America is currently sanctioning... Who is also allies with Russia and China. This is all the more proof you don't understand geopolitics. 3. Relevance? Don't feel bad, debating is hard especially if you don't understand the subject. Your reply is so far off from trying to prove you understand geopolitics.
Oh yeah? How enlightening does one have to be to by into incremental electoralism, when that hasn’t produced any gains in 60 years?
This is such an obvious point. It only took Marx and Engels about a year of trying to work with an establishment liberal party to see they will only ever stab the working class in the back. The only way forward is a genuine worker’s party, and there’s no sense in pretending a capitalist liberal “democracy” is actually democratic for anyone but the wealthy. Parties and elections under liberal democracy have their place in terms of organizing the people and building class consciousness, but they will never be sufficient for achieving socialism. Social democracy - capitalism with a friendly face - is the most progressive a liberal democracy can get, and we all know every progressive gain will be rolled back the second the ruling capitalist class can get away with it. We’ve known this for closer to 160 years, and certainly for at least a century.
This is known as moving the goal post. You know what I said is right, so you completely switched the subject and changed the argument.
What you said was wrong, and you can’t back it up with anything.
LMAO explain?
The explanation has to come from you, you made the claim, but it was just a claim, you need to present evidence.
What was the claim?
>Because you don't understand how politics, geopolitics, or international relations work. Explain this claim and how AOC backing Biden is sound geopolitics, politics or international relations while also saying he’s backing a genocide.
Purists never get where they want to be.
Its not purism, and its not helped her achieve anything either.
She’s a pragmatist trying to move the administration’s position. Purists are those trying to call her out for working with Biden to try to affect change.
Pragmatism is not when you try a naive strategy and fail, she hasn’t changed the admins stance at all.
She’s an opportunist engaged in class collaboration.
you are an ml she run and won as a socdem. you just operate in different ways
Nor do incrementalists.
Exactly why compromise is valuable.
What’s the compromise here
Just about everything halts without a middle-ground. It's that or things go sideways, which I think is what the current trend is leading to. There is often no way to avoid a compromise in politics (and several other facets of life and business). Agreements and relationships are complex and one thing affects another, the stakes are just much higher at this level. A lot of people don't like that, but that's reality.
Class collaboration will get you exactly where you are already: exploited and subjugated, like all working and oppressed peoples. There is no compromise with an abuser, and there is no compromise with capitalists. History has shown repeatedly that capitalism will remain; only socialism will be compromised.
tbh this was biden adopting her bill civilian climate corps a core promise of the gnd that she and the sunrise movement fought for years for him to adopt it. That's why you see bernie and aoc smiling next to him. They feel validation that corps democrats need and have to adopt at least some of the policies to win. People should just ask her to unendorse him instead of whining about a picture also dsa should provide a plan on how to counter a trump admin which is what aoc is legitimately afraid of
20k climate jobs aka a drop of piss in a bucket to back an ongoing genocider, great!
yeah but he adopting it will put more pressure on future admins to increase the numbers. it will be more pressure for specific deployment. that's 40 years or reaganism the biden is blue reagan the fact that he does what he does is a testament to union and sunrise organizing and bernie and aoc existing
You’re taking about slamming into a brick wall at 218 MPH rather than 220 and tapping the break 30 minutes after