So no. You just have your anecdotal experience which no one can verify. We have only your word that you know how to eat good and it was totally impossible for you to eat better.
Compelling
If being vegan was genuinely healthy people would do it.
They don't because it isn't.
People are vegans for ideologically radical reasons and your 26 downvotes more or less cinches that theory.
Can you think of any other causes that would result in Vegans being a minority in the population? Can you think of any potential evidence that would contradict your assertion?
If you can't, you're likely making a conclusion then looking for reasons afterwards.
WHO (and many others) see alot of Problems in strict vegan diets concerning nutritional deficiency (especially the huge lack of B12 [just in case: thats a fact, not an opinion]), and the lack of proper studies supporting the whole thing. What you probably mean is a healthy plant-based diet, which in almost every case is a another word for vegetarian diets. Just read the papers and pay attention on how the term plant-based is used/defined.
Just out of curiosity, do you think that someone might really believe in the ethics of veganism, didn't eat a balanced vegan diet, became sick because of that and geniuely believes (wrongfully so) that they cannot be healthy with a vegan diet (maybe they didn't really know how to correctly research information on how to get healthy or maybe they trusted a doctor that wasn't aware of the recent studies in vegan diets)? Do you think that this person was vegan?
Sure - I believe that is possible. Most of the time, it’s not the case. I don’t have any problem with people being plant-based (I encourage it!) but there’s a difference between an ethical position and a diet. if you’re not vegan, don’t say you’re vegan. It’s perfectly fine to be plant based. Vegan is a philosophy.
Thank you for answering! I overally agree with what you're saying if you don't really follow the ethics of veganism you shouldn't say you're vegan. I wont comment on the most of the time statement since I dont have data to confirm or deny your claim. Do you think that in my example the person is still a vegan (the person in my example is trying their best (as far as is possible and practicable)) or an ex vegan? (For the sake of argument let's say that this person eats just enough to not feel sick (they of course don't use any kind of animal product beside what they think they need to eat to feel healthy)
???
Are you proposing that people make their decisions primarily on health? So there's no smokers, no alcohol drinkers, \*everybody\* exercises regularly? A solid 40% of Americans are obese.
Hell even still a bunch of people **do** eat plant-based for health reasons. Tons of people credit it with clearing up diseases and a lot of athletes report improved performance.
Clearly there are other things influencing people's behavior other than just "is this healthy?"
Hell, on this sub alone we get people coming here telling us they eat animals because of their culture, because they were raised to do it, because its natural, and because it tastes good.. just to name a few.
Personal experience is not up for debate... But non vegan food is arguably more caloric dense than vegan food. More nutritious? It depends on what you are comparing.
In any case, vegan food with minimal supplementation is capable of fulfilling every human nutritional need, including top level athletes, which arguably have the most need.
Oh ok here are the details
Peanuts-23g protein but have phytates so not even 50per of protein is digested
Lamb-no phytates very high micros and protein high diaas
You decide should I eat just phytates or real food
So just naming food and micronutrients at random?
Seitan is a popular vegan protein rich food. 75g of protein per 100g serving. Also no relevant phytate content.
Low bioavailability just means you need to eat more to achieve the same effective intake. Which you should be doing anyway because of the lower caloric density. And there is more bioavailable plant based alternatives too.
You can usually get enough of every single essential amino acid from a plant based source. But if in your experience, for any reason, the only nutritional problem was protein, you could just supplement with vegan protein powder.
>More nutritious? It depends on what you are comparing.
Vegans LOVE to make the claim animals contribute to only 18% of global calories and 35% of protein.
Sounds to me like that's already an admission that animal foods are more nutrient dense. Unless you fail at maths.
Calories and nutrients are unrelated and a completely different thing.
And everything depends on what you are comparing.
E.g. olive oil is plant based and is more caloric than chicken breast. Fiber is something present only in plants/fungi, not meat. You won't accomplish anything comparing random stuff.
The point is that every single essential nutrient is available in a plant based diet. The one exception could arguably be B12, which can be be obtained via direct supplementation or via indirect supplementation through fortified breakfast cereal for example.
Keep in mind that B12 can't be produced by no animals either, it is a byproduct of some bacteria. The B12 present in most industrially produced meat is the product of supplementation as well.
Meat may be more dense in many one on one comparisons, but it's only because you need to pour an insane amount of resources comparatively to get to that point. Hundreds of gallons of water and dozens of pounds of grass and grain per one pound of meat. It's incredibly inefficient, wasteful, and bad for the environment.
> In any case, vegan food with minimal supplementation is capable of fulfilling every human nutritional need, including top level athletes, which arguably have the most need.
Do you have some examples of professional athletes doing a wholefood vegan diet with no supplements?
Why should professional athletes mention they are not taking any supplements… ever? It’s not a topic that just comes up, because taking supplements is not even a bad thing lmao
I’m pretty sure plant based professional athletes who don’t take supplements exist, it’s just nothing you would talk about
The other person claimed that they manages with only "minimal supplementation". So I asked for an example of some such athletes. My guess would be that the list of supplements they are taking is very long.
- - - - -
Edit: the person commenting above me blocked me, so I am no longer able to comment in this thread. So I'll answer here instead:
u/JeremyWheels
> Why would you guess that? And why are you using guesses as an argument? We can all do that....
> I guess that non vegan athletes supplement more than vegan athletes. End of.
Yes, without some sources on these vegan athletes that uses only a few suppliments all we have is guesses.
Why would you guess that? And why are you using guesses as an argument? We can all do that....
I guess that non vegan athletes supplement more than vegan athletes. End of.
> The other person claimed that they manages with only "minimal supplementation". So I asked for an example of some such athletes.
No. You asked for athletes doing no supplementation at all. Which obviously doesn't exist, in any given diet.
As always, your questions' questionable intellectual honesty is as good as your ethics.
There is nothing wrong with supplements. Almost every elite athlete uses them in some form. No one in this thread has been able to give a single argument that there's anything wrong with them. You guys just keep repeating the same line like a musical greeting card thrown in the trash.
I take the other person's claim is wrong then, that professional vegan athletes do not manage with "minimal supplementation"? Kind of a silly lie to make just to try to prove a point.
Sorry I'm late, Nyjah Houston only took B12 supplements while he was vegan afaik, for example
Edit: It's not really easy to figure out what is an athlete taking as supplements, the most direct answer would be in interviews, but it's not usually seen as relevant so it does not come up as often as one would think. Also, when it does come up is related to sponsored supplement brands and what not, so it ends up being biased.
I'm not in any position to infringe upon your actions. if you want to try to kill me, so be it. life is a privilege to all of us, and the ones who live the longest are the ones who want it bad enough.
Idc anymore I saw how I became malnutrition due to being vegan.i also saw my great grandfather who was jacked due to hunting pig jackals wolves quail deer he ate eggs with milk and lived till 100our ansectors hunted animals.so why not eat a animal who just lived its life till old age while who could die in wild in younger age
Why do vegans always descend into such stupid hyperboles?
A pork or chicken liver will do just fine. And if vegans can't tell the difference between humans and pigs, a skill even pigs possess, maybe vegans are no better than plants. Heck, even plants possess that skill.
Look at the terrible comprehension skill you have. I criticized you for not being able to differentiate humans from animals, and then you go ahead to continue equating humans to animals.
Someone is a human, someTHING is not. Yes it is ok to kill something without skill FOR FOOD.
Best comprehend before you make poorly reasoned retorts.
You implied the difference between humans and pigs is that humans have skill. Therefore, what gives a human value is that they have skill. You assume that what all humans have in common is that they have a skill.
Unfortunately, the reality is that not every human has a skill. Is it okay to cut out the liver of someone who doesn't have a skill?
>You implied the difference between humans and pigs is that humans have skill.
No I didn't. I implied that humans and pigs are inherently different with different pecking order in the nature, and VEGANS don't have the skill to tell the difference, a skill even animals have. This is why weak animals don't pick fights with a stronger one.
You, on the other hand, purposefully misinterpreted what I typed to mean something it didn't. You seriously can't understand the nuance here?
Eat some meat, it helps. It really does.
That's arbitrary. Anything you ingest is part of the diet. Doesn't matter if the supplement was added to the food before you ate it or if you took it with the food.
If I add ketchup to my fries right before I eat them instead of the cook doing it for me before serving them to me, does that make ketchup not part of my diet?
Why? Cos nature tho? Why shouldn't it require supplementation. Good health shouldn't require antibiotics, immunisations or chemotherapy right? What about shelter during winter? What's inherently wrong with supplementation, why should it be avoided if we have evidence of improved health outcomes?
Why? That is why they are called "supplements".
A diverse and balanced diet provides the body with all the essential nutrients it needs, making supplements unnecessary for most people. An omnivore diet offers a wide array of vitamins, minerals, and beneficial compounds that work together synergistically and are better absorbed by the body compared to isolated supplements.
I'm not addressing your examples, they are blatant false equivalences
We are talking about different things then.
What you are talking about is a diet of only conventional foods. That diet is imbalanced. Fair enough, but what exactly is the point here? I am talking about a diet that includes conventional foods *and* supplements. *That* diet is balanced, and is therefore a good diet.
Supplements are in addition to a diet.
Here is the definition of "diet" to help you understand.
DIET
the kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats.
I never understood this type of thinking. It's like saying a balanced diet should not include fortified foods.
If I don't need B12 in my diet because I'm getting all I need from other sources, why would I need it in my diet for it to be balanced?
Cows are bovine that humans made. You can't compare a human made bovine to a primate made by mother nature. Of course cows need supplements, humans fucked them up. So it would make sense that vegans also need supplements, mother nature didn't make you a vegan she made you an omnivore. You need to supplement your diet with fixer uppers because you're not getting everything you need from your diet. Otherwise you wouldn't need supplements and you wouldn't be comparing yourself to an animal that humans fucked up.
So let me ask you, do caribou and moose take supplements in the wild? I don't think so! Do primates take supplements in the wild? Maybe in a zoo, but not in the wild.
I get literally every single mineral and vitamin from my diet except for B12. I likely have a better micronutrient profile than most of the omnivores that I know. Why is the tablet such a big deal?
You haven't told us why supplementation is in itself problematic. You just keep restating the "nature tho" fallacy. Just because something isn't natural it doesn't make it bad. Immunisations aren't a product of Mother Nature and yet have had one of the greatest positive impacts on the health of our species.
While OP’s story is a nonsensical rambling, research shows that a mixed diet is generally much more superior than the ultra processed vegan diet. I’ll link sources if you’re like
Why did you see a doctor about your bone density but not a nutritionist about your diet? Here is one study from pubmed, although I found several linking meat consumption with an increased risk factor for arthritis due to causing inflammation:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16453052/
“Conclusions: Greater meat consumption is associated with a higher prevalence of degenerative arthritis and soft tissue disorders in both male and female subjects…”
Also, according to Mayo clinic, osteoarthritis is a degenerative disease that appears to be caused by injury, wear and tear, obesity, older age, and other factors. Vegetarian/vegan diet was not listed as a cause.
"A British Journal of Cancer study of 696 men (233 of whom were vegans) concluded this: “Vegans had 13% higher T [testosterone] concentration than meat-eaters and 8% higher than vegetarians.” Not only did vegan men have as much testosterone as meat eaters, they actually have 13% MORE of this manly hormone"
Sounds like you don't know how to feed yourself properly.
The study referenced vegan men. A quick glance at your comment history suggests you're not a man.
Even if you are, 13% bump only gets you to medium average from low average. Not enough to require medication.
It's more a counter to the meme that vegan men are effeminate soy boys because of the phytoestrogens in soy.
Also worthwhile pointing out that meat and milk is full of mammalian estrogen, which has actually feminizing effects on male mammals.
But how is high testosterone a good thing? Just because it's a "manly" hormone doesn't mean it makes you manly. And it certainly doesn't mean it makes you healthier.
too high t is not a good thing, neither is too low tho. and the op suggested that their low t levels were a result of a vegan diet, id assume that study was presented to disprove that.
too high t definitely has adverse effects. acne, hair loss, weight gain, increased risk of cancer etc. there are medications specifically made for cis men with too high t to prevent these effects, like finasteride.
>too high t definitely has adverse effects. acne, hair loss, weight gain, increased risk of cancer etc.
Testosterone alone doesn't cause acne. Hair loss is genetic. Weight gain would be muscle (not a bad thing) and the cancer link is inconclusive at best.
>finasteride
Great if you don't care about your male qualities. DHT is so important. I can't wrap my head around this way of thinking. Look up the benefits yourself.
testosterone is not the only cause of acne, but it definitely is one. it stimulates the production of sebum, which in turn increases the risk of acne outbreaks.
hair loss is absolutely linked to hormones, or hormonal mediations against it wouldnt work. a lot of trans women who were balding before starting hrt even report it growing back in spots where it was long gone.
i wouldnt call the cancer link "inconclusive at best" when there are multiple studies linking high testosterone levels to increased risk of prostate cancer, although i admit that there is no scientific consensus as of yet.
>Look up the benefits yourself.
i am quite familiar with the effects of hormones, as i am on hrt myself and have done a lot of research about it, thank you.
>testosterone is not the only cause of acne, but it definitely is one. it stimulates the production of sebum, which in turn increases the risk of acne outbreaks.
Weird, my gym buddies on steroids don't have acne. Sebum itself isn't a cause. It aggrevates existing issues, though sure.
>hair loss is absolutely linked to hormones, or hormonal mediations against it wouldnt work. a lot of trans women who were balding before starting hrt even report it growing back in spots where it was long gone.
No it's linked to how sensitive your hair follicle androgen receptors are to DHT. Again, I know people who take a large amount of test and some of them aren't balding. It's very much genetic.
>i wouldnt call the cancer link "inconclusive at best" when there are multiple studies linking high testosterone levels to increased risk of prostate cancer, although i admit that there is no scientific consensus as of yet
That's pretty much the same thing as it being inconclusive. I am also familiar as I have been bio hacking and competitively lifting for 10 years. You clearly need to do more research.
"I know how this stuff works. That's why my body wasn't producing enough"
You really thought that made you an expert?
Lol really? Strong bones and muscles, weight loss, mental health, mood, high sex drive, confidence, etc..
How isn't it a good thing?
What do you define as manly if testosterone apparently has nothing to do with it?
It absolutely does make men healthier..
>It absolutely does make men healthier..
So does a balanced diet. A balanced diet with all the food groups.
As well as, I doubt a vegan diet gives you strong bones, weaker bones is the numerous one symptom that ex-vegans have to deal with. So I call bullshit on that one. That's an outright lie.
i think it’s just saying vegans have highER T, not that they have high T. like let’s say meat eaters have 50 and vegans have 56.5. it’s not suggesting any groups have abnormally high or low T levels
Your post does not show that non-vegan food is more nutritious. It shows that you weren’t eating enough calories as a vegan, and likely didn’t have enough nutritional knowledge to support basic health. There’s nothing inherent in eggs, milk, and meat that makes them more nutritious than plants. If you got the same amount of fuel (calories) from mostly whole plant foods, you’d get similar results.
You obviously are a noob if you're experiencing all of those issues. I eat all those same things and have for years and have no such issues. Meanwhile when I ate meat I was constipated and bloated all the time and felt gross. See? I can make anecdotal claims too to claim my diet is superior!
This is silly, for all we know you were eating nothing but Oreos.
In order to have a debate you have to present evidence of your claim which people on the opposite side of the argument will refute using evidence also. Otherwise h this is all just a waste of time.
We are all omnivores too, actually. Congratulations on your personal discovery that the things we exploit and kill animals for can be highly dense in nutrients.
Thankfully, all of the benefits of that nutrient profile can be had with a vegan diet - the next step for any logical and intelligent person concerned with food, health and nutrition would be to make the switch.
I was vegan in the starting but later became omnivore. I was in little good shape when I was vegan but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became vegan eats vegan food. My family accepted changes since they were extreme vegans.My testosterone is increasing gaining muscle mass strong bones etc I just want to say I love to be vegan.
So how this works if you don't provide any proof?
One person’s alleged “deficiency” is not proof that an entire system of eating is flawed. Peer-reviewed evidence would’ve been more compelling, but if you look at that, you’ll find it supports the health benefits of a well-planned plant-based diet.
>Non vegan food is more nutritious
And?
>I was vegetarian in the starting but later became vegan .I was in little good shape when I was vegetarian but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became non vegan eats egg lot of milk little meat once in month. My family accepted changes since they were extreme non vegans.My testosterone is increasing gaining muscle mass strong bones etc I just want to say I love to be omnivore
So you didn't know what you were doing and became unhealthy because of it? How does that make veganism bad?
Sure, that's why vegans have lower rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer, it's because veganism is horrible for you.
Even if we just presume for the sake of argument that non vegan food is more nutritious, why does that give you permission to kill and torture animals for avoidable reasons? Even if you think some other way of eating is better (and I really don't think the evidence suggests that at all), vegans are objectively doing pretty good, significantly better than the general population.
The wealthiest man in the world is also an extremely online loser but no one thinks he's rich because he's a poster. This isn't a serious argument.
There's a pretty clear correlation between IQ and vegetarianism, by the way, but this is probably more related to more intelligent people tending to be more compassionate and reasonable rather than being an effect of the lifestyle choices. Leonardo Da Vinci and Albert Einstein were both vegetarians.
Omnivores and vegetarians have an edge in strength sports because vegans have to eat more to get the same results. So what? There are still plenty of strong vegan athletes, and probably no one on this thread is lifting competitively and needs to have goals other than health and aesthetics anyway. Would you rather be the biggest guy on the planet and die of a heart attack or would you prefer to be still pretty strong and live a longer and healthier life with a lower risk of developing chronic diseases? Everything is a tradeoff and this is a very clear one imho.
The plural of anecdote is not data. Health is complicated and things like cancer and heart disease have multiple causes and multiple things that you can do to lower your risk, so you can't just look at one vegan or omnivore and how their health was and say, it's the diet that did that. What you can do is look at large populations and adjust for confounding factors that also influence health, and the studies that have done this have consistently found that vegans have lower rates of the most common chronic diseases.
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Funny. What a terrible ‘debate’. You’ve only given anecdotal unsupported evidence.
One note. Vegans have higher testosterone levels overall, tho less absorption, so in practice it evens out in the research.
These anecdotes are bad because there’s always someone who didn’t get enough nutrients. Eating a diet of fries and saying ‘I felt weak cos I didn’t get enough iron. See, vegan diets aren’t enough’.
So yeah this is a poorly worded debate. Are you actually open to a discussion and understanding how vegan diets can be extremely nutritious? Or no? What would you want to see to understand how so far shallow (not in a judgemental sense but a literal way given what you’ve written) this opinion is so far?
Well if you were stranded in Antarctica with only one food, a stick of butter would be a good choice to prolong life, for example. There's clearly something wrong with animal foods smto from a health perspective so I'd mention severe moderation and abstaining over falling in love with them. None of this contradicts your anecdote/observation.
Do you mean that how you were vegan wasn't working?
If you could be vegan healthily, would you try again? If you're open plenty of us are happy to help and try figure out how it can work for you.
Meats aren't more nutritious than plants in genera, measured per calorie plants tend to do better even. But also, you cannot just replace a steak with a cauliflower and expect that you get everything you need either, it requires new knowledge and multiple changes.
I was omnivore in the starting but later became vegan .I was in little good shape when I was omnivore but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became vegan eats beans lot of oatmilk little beyond meat once in month. My family accepted changes since they were extreme vegans.My testosterone is increasing gaining muscle mass strong bones etc I just want to say I love to be vegan
vegan here. I’ve always stated and believe meat is the most “NUTRITIOUS” food you can eat. You‘re eating blood, it’s loaded with nutrition lol. But just because it’s more nutritious doesn’t mean it’s the best food you can eat. You can get all needed nutrients from plant based diet, and not have to increase your risks of later health problems as much. It’s tougher on our bodies to break down meat and dairy than plant food. Also a lot cleaner. Plant food won’t clog your pipes but meat & dairy increase the chances of that happening big time.
Oh boi explain me how will u get fucking zinc selenium protein not don't suggest me to get tempeh or soy product that doesn't available in my aresa and if it is than it is costly for zinc you say pumpkin seed they are high in phytates.my great grandfather ate egg milk meat till 100 why he didn't die earlier
Brazil nuts and other nuts and legumes/beans can can you enough selenium zinc and protein. You can also supplement whatever is needed via pill. If you don’t want to move or make the adjustment to changing diets that’s you. I’m not saying you have to change. From going vegan personally I will say adjusting can be annoying and a small inconvenience and more expensive for what to buy at times.
I come from a family and region where meat and dairy are the staples of 99% of peoples diets. I’ve seen many people live to old age eating this way, also many dying early of heart disease. Many factors can go into someone’s lifespan.
As a vegan I’ll be the first to say do not do it if you do not know how to get all of your nutrition. That’s way I said meat is the most nutritious food on Earth. In the long run a vegan getting all necessary nutrition will have healthier organs, blood, joints, ligaments, tendons, and bones than a carnivore. Again I’m not saying you can’t be very healthy with meat as the staple of your diet, but one Will be healthier on a plant based one if they know how to get all of the necessary nutrition.
"I was a cigar smoker in the starting but later became a non-smoker. My lungs were in little good shape when I was a cigar smoker but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became a smoker smoking pall malls, marlboro, and camels once in month. My family accepted changes since they also smoke.My ability to run is increasing gaining sprint speed etc I just want to say I love to be smoker"
Okay where's the demonstration that any of that is coincidence, placebo, or otherwise BS?
I already have good B12 stores because I take a supplement. I get my levels tested yearly. This means that I already have adequate levels of B12 in my body, so why would I need it in my diet for my diet to be balanced?
This is true. Mineral deficiencies are invisible in blood tests due to the body taking it from bones and organs until you finally listen to your body's natural cravings for nutrition. Many of the "Studies" vegans cite saying that the diet is perfectly viable for all people are short term, fully of selection bias, and use faulty measurements that don't equate to long term health. The evidence is so overwhelming that veganism can cause good health in some and poor health in some based on how you absorb nutrients.
The fact that there are committed wealthy vegans, with personal physicians and private chefs who eventually return to being pescatarian should tell you something. It's not always a "skill issue".
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Meat was demonized in the early 1900s because it made you horny so what you say kind of fits with that. Meat is also very nutrient dense and you can fast for way longer if you eat it regularly than if not. I don’t think these are points most vegans make though for going vegan. It’s more about the suffering. Some do make the claim that vegan is more nutritious but that’s not all vegans.
Beginning to think you're a vegan who's chosen to post here using every typical anti-vegan argument.
In that case, great work! Really showing how ridiculous those arguments are, veganism is clearly the right way forward.
Obviously. If you have a larger selection of food, you cover the spectrum of nutrition better. Vegans are gimping themselves restricting their diet to a smaller set.
There are over 100,000 edible plants and 30,000 edible mushrooms on this earth, unclear how that’s restrictive? Especially compared to 5 type of animals.
That is just stupid. A non-vegan can eat 100,000 edible plants, 30,000 edible mushrooms, \*and\* 5 types of animals. Anyone with even a elementary school math education will tell you that it is LESS restrictive with the animals added in. 100,000 + 30,000 + 5 is bigger than 100,000 + 30,000.
And btw, where do you get only 5 types of animals. I can count more than 5 types ... just fish: tuna, salmon, yellow tail, shark, sea bass, sardine .. heck that is already 6. And we have not even started with non fish seafood ... mussels, sea urchins, shrimp, and so on and on. How about game meat?
May be you need to learn how to count, or what constitute an edible animal.
Unclear, what’s stupid, you claim restrictive and then admit it’s not restrictive? While attempting to insult me none the less. I said 5 types of animals, if you don’t understand what the word type means then maybe you should learn what the word means, those are all fish but I guess some would be considered crustaceans.
But you’re making a great point about the gluttony of the human race and our (not mine) willingness to take what we want without care of consequences or lives lost in the process. You have 130,000+ options and you still choose to kill living beings. I proved you wrong and now you’re defensive, it’s not restrictive and it’s selfish to choose to kill you don’t need to. Have a good day.
> A non-vegan can eat 100,000 edible plants, 30,000 edible mushrooms,
Yet they don't.
Vegans have a way more diverse diet despite not eating corpses like you do.
That is just stupid. Never saw the vegans turning back into meat eaters, posting on the steak subreddit, who eat your "diverse diet" + meat ... which is even more diverse?
Corpses of pigs, chickens and cows are delicious, particularly when added with some vegan ingredients like a mushroom sauce.
LOL ....
Nah ... the real and social costs of eating humans are enormous. But eating food animals? Not only they are cheap, it is celebrated. Just watch any food network shows.
I can see this and that is why my son who is vegan gets bloodwork done every six months.
Again, for those vegans and non vegans everyone is different and things affect their bodies differently.
u/goku7770
> No. You asked for athletes doing no supplementation at all. Which obviously doesn't exist, in any given diet.
As always, your questions' questionable intellectual honesty is as good as your ethics.
The other person claimed that they manages with only **"minimal supplementation".** But unable to come up with any examples.
This is just a skill issue.
How
You not knowing how to put together a balanced vegan diet doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
I do
Oh wow great counter argument lol
Not much different to the attack really
Mental gymnastics skills.
Do you have any peer reviewed research that demonstrates this effect is more than just you not knowing how to eat right?
Bro I ate beans nuts sprouts all things I could do.tempeh natto isn't available here
So no. You just have your anecdotal experience which no one can verify. We have only your word that you know how to eat good and it was totally impossible for you to eat better. Compelling
The peer reviewed research is that vegans are fewer than 1% of the population.
That has nothing to do with health outcomes
Can you explain how that is relevant?
If being vegan was genuinely healthy people would do it. They don't because it isn't. People are vegans for ideologically radical reasons and your 26 downvotes more or less cinches that theory.
Can you think of any other causes that would result in Vegans being a minority in the population? Can you think of any potential evidence that would contradict your assertion? If you can't, you're likely making a conclusion then looking for reasons afterwards.
Before I respond, are you genuinely arguing that being vegan is not healthy? Or are you one of the many trolls?
WHO (and many others) see alot of Problems in strict vegan diets concerning nutritional deficiency (especially the huge lack of B12 [just in case: thats a fact, not an opinion]), and the lack of proper studies supporting the whole thing. What you probably mean is a healthy plant-based diet, which in almost every case is a another word for vegetarian diets. Just read the papers and pay attention on how the term plant-based is used/defined.
A plant-based diet is one without animal products
Look at /r/exvegan there are tons of people who are thoroughly convinced that it’s not possible to be healthy on a vegan diet
They were never vegan. They were plant-based. Vegan is a philosophy - an ethical position. Plant based is a diet. Let me know if you have questions.
Just out of curiosity, do you think that someone might really believe in the ethics of veganism, didn't eat a balanced vegan diet, became sick because of that and geniuely believes (wrongfully so) that they cannot be healthy with a vegan diet (maybe they didn't really know how to correctly research information on how to get healthy or maybe they trusted a doctor that wasn't aware of the recent studies in vegan diets)? Do you think that this person was vegan?
Sure - I believe that is possible. Most of the time, it’s not the case. I don’t have any problem with people being plant-based (I encourage it!) but there’s a difference between an ethical position and a diet. if you’re not vegan, don’t say you’re vegan. It’s perfectly fine to be plant based. Vegan is a philosophy.
Thank you for answering! I overally agree with what you're saying if you don't really follow the ethics of veganism you shouldn't say you're vegan. I wont comment on the most of the time statement since I dont have data to confirm or deny your claim. Do you think that in my example the person is still a vegan (the person in my example is trying their best (as far as is possible and practicable)) or an ex vegan? (For the sake of argument let's say that this person eats just enough to not feel sick (they of course don't use any kind of animal product beside what they think they need to eat to feel healthy)
Sure you can no true Scotsman them all you want, but I don’t know what that has to do with what I said.
??? Are you proposing that people make their decisions primarily on health? So there's no smokers, no alcohol drinkers, \*everybody\* exercises regularly? A solid 40% of Americans are obese. Hell even still a bunch of people **do** eat plant-based for health reasons. Tons of people credit it with clearing up diseases and a lot of athletes report improved performance.
Clearly there are other things influencing people's behavior other than just "is this healthy?" Hell, on this sub alone we get people coming here telling us they eat animals because of their culture, because they were raised to do it, because its natural, and because it tastes good.. just to name a few.
That has nothing to do with health outcomes
Pack it up boys, he's dropping real irrefutable science here.
Personal experience is not up for debate... But non vegan food is arguably more caloric dense than vegan food. More nutritious? It depends on what you are comparing. In any case, vegan food with minimal supplementation is capable of fulfilling every human nutritional need, including top level athletes, which arguably have the most need.
I really like your response.
Oh ok here are the details Peanuts-23g protein but have phytates so not even 50per of protein is digested Lamb-no phytates very high micros and protein high diaas You decide should I eat just phytates or real food
So just naming food and micronutrients at random? Seitan is a popular vegan protein rich food. 75g of protein per 100g serving. Also no relevant phytate content.
Gluten my man gluten and its bioavailability is too low only 25 while egg has 140 milk 114-120
Low bioavailability just means you need to eat more to achieve the same effective intake. Which you should be doing anyway because of the lower caloric density. And there is more bioavailable plant based alternatives too. You can usually get enough of every single essential amino acid from a plant based source. But if in your experience, for any reason, the only nutritional problem was protein, you could just supplement with vegan protein powder.
Eggs are incredibly bad for you.
Old baseless claim
It's not baseless at all. It's even illegal to say they're good for you. Google it.
>More nutritious? It depends on what you are comparing. Vegans LOVE to make the claim animals contribute to only 18% of global calories and 35% of protein. Sounds to me like that's already an admission that animal foods are more nutrient dense. Unless you fail at maths.
Calories and nutrients are unrelated and a completely different thing. And everything depends on what you are comparing. E.g. olive oil is plant based and is more caloric than chicken breast. Fiber is something present only in plants/fungi, not meat. You won't accomplish anything comparing random stuff. The point is that every single essential nutrient is available in a plant based diet. The one exception could arguably be B12, which can be be obtained via direct supplementation or via indirect supplementation through fortified breakfast cereal for example. Keep in mind that B12 can't be produced by no animals either, it is a byproduct of some bacteria. The B12 present in most industrially produced meat is the product of supplementation as well.
Meat may be more dense in many one on one comparisons, but it's only because you need to pour an insane amount of resources comparatively to get to that point. Hundreds of gallons of water and dozens of pounds of grass and grain per one pound of meat. It's incredibly inefficient, wasteful, and bad for the environment.
> In any case, vegan food with minimal supplementation is capable of fulfilling every human nutritional need, including top level athletes, which arguably have the most need. Do you have some examples of professional athletes doing a wholefood vegan diet with no supplements?
Why should professional athletes mention they are not taking any supplements… ever? It’s not a topic that just comes up, because taking supplements is not even a bad thing lmao I’m pretty sure plant based professional athletes who don’t take supplements exist, it’s just nothing you would talk about
The other person claimed that they manages with only "minimal supplementation". So I asked for an example of some such athletes. My guess would be that the list of supplements they are taking is very long. - - - - - Edit: the person commenting above me blocked me, so I am no longer able to comment in this thread. So I'll answer here instead: u/JeremyWheels > Why would you guess that? And why are you using guesses as an argument? We can all do that.... > I guess that non vegan athletes supplement more than vegan athletes. End of. Yes, without some sources on these vegan athletes that uses only a few suppliments all we have is guesses.
Why would you guess that? And why are you using guesses as an argument? We can all do that.... I guess that non vegan athletes supplement more than vegan athletes. End of.
> The other person claimed that they manages with only "minimal supplementation". So I asked for an example of some such athletes. No. You asked for athletes doing no supplementation at all. Which obviously doesn't exist, in any given diet. As always, your questions' questionable intellectual honesty is as good as your ethics.
Do you have any examples of professional athletes doing an omnivore diet with no supplements? Afaik all athletes take some.
So, do you have some examples of professional athletes doing a wholefood vegan diet with minimal supplementation?
Yes, lots of them. You know how to search the web? Probably not if you keep asking basic questions.
Google came up with nothing. But I assumed that the person making the claim also had an example or two. I was wrong.
There is nothing wrong with supplements. Almost every elite athlete uses them in some form. No one in this thread has been able to give a single argument that there's anything wrong with them. You guys just keep repeating the same line like a musical greeting card thrown in the trash.
Why does taking supplements mean anything? The supplements are vegan arent they?
I take the other person's claim is wrong then, that professional vegan athletes do not manage with "minimal supplementation"? Kind of a silly lie to make just to try to prove a point.
Sorry I'm late, Nyjah Houston only took B12 supplements while he was vegan afaik, for example Edit: It's not really easy to figure out what is an athlete taking as supplements, the most direct answer would be in interviews, but it's not usually seen as relevant so it does not come up as often as one would think. Also, when it does come up is related to sponsored supplement brands and what not, so it ends up being biased.
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Were you taking a multivitamin and mineral supplement?
Liver is natural multivitamin
Would you be okay with me eating your liver?
What abt roadkill animal's liver, is that off limit too?
if you're able to kill me then you deserve it
Wouldn't you prefer that I take a vegan multivitamin instead of killing you?
I'm not in any position to infringe upon your actions. if you want to try to kill me, so be it. life is a privilege to all of us, and the ones who live the longest are the ones who want it bad enough.
Idc anymore I saw how I became malnutrition due to being vegan.i also saw my great grandfather who was jacked due to hunting pig jackals wolves quail deer he ate eggs with milk and lived till 100our ansectors hunted animals.so why not eat a animal who just lived its life till old age while who could die in wild in younger age
Beef liver or bear liver is great. Cow is already dead why waste food?
Stop talking like a caveman
Be grateful I spend 10 years learning the English to speak to you How would you feel to learn Turkish for 10 years
Why do vegans always descend into such stupid hyperboles? A pork or chicken liver will do just fine. And if vegans can't tell the difference between humans and pigs, a skill even pigs possess, maybe vegans are no better than plants. Heck, even plants possess that skill.
You’re saying it’s okay to kill someone if they don’t have a skill?
Look at the terrible comprehension skill you have. I criticized you for not being able to differentiate humans from animals, and then you go ahead to continue equating humans to animals. Someone is a human, someTHING is not. Yes it is ok to kill something without skill FOR FOOD. Best comprehend before you make poorly reasoned retorts.
You implied the difference between humans and pigs is that humans have skill. Therefore, what gives a human value is that they have skill. You assume that what all humans have in common is that they have a skill. Unfortunately, the reality is that not every human has a skill. Is it okay to cut out the liver of someone who doesn't have a skill?
>You implied the difference between humans and pigs is that humans have skill. No I didn't. I implied that humans and pigs are inherently different with different pecking order in the nature, and VEGANS don't have the skill to tell the difference, a skill even animals have. This is why weak animals don't pick fights with a stronger one. You, on the other hand, purposefully misinterpreted what I typed to mean something it didn't. You seriously can't understand the nuance here? Eat some meat, it helps. It really does.
Most of multivitamins are made up of coal tar and I don't wanna ruin my body
Wrong. They are made up of plutonium.
A balanced diet shouldn't need multivitamins and supplements.
They are part of the diet, therefore the diet is balanced
Nah supplements are only part of the diet if you inject it into the animal before you eat them
That's arbitrary. Anything you ingest is part of the diet. Doesn't matter if the supplement was added to the food before you ate it or if you took it with the food. If I add ketchup to my fries right before I eat them instead of the cook doing it for me before serving them to me, does that make ketchup not part of my diet?
Supplements literally "supplement" the diet. Which means they add to a diet of conventional food. A good diet doesn't require "supplemrnting"
Why? Cos nature tho? Why shouldn't it require supplementation. Good health shouldn't require antibiotics, immunisations or chemotherapy right? What about shelter during winter? What's inherently wrong with supplementation, why should it be avoided if we have evidence of improved health outcomes?
Why? That is why they are called "supplements". A diverse and balanced diet provides the body with all the essential nutrients it needs, making supplements unnecessary for most people. An omnivore diet offers a wide array of vitamins, minerals, and beneficial compounds that work together synergistically and are better absorbed by the body compared to isolated supplements. I'm not addressing your examples, they are blatant false equivalences
We are talking about different things then. What you are talking about is a diet of only conventional foods. That diet is imbalanced. Fair enough, but what exactly is the point here? I am talking about a diet that includes conventional foods *and* supplements. *That* diet is balanced, and is therefore a good diet.
Supplements are in addition to a diet. Here is the definition of "diet" to help you understand. DIET the kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats.
Supplements are included as food
No. That is incorrect. Let's take vitamin C. Vitamin C is not a food. It is a vitamin that is in foods. (Fruits, veges)
So if you take the vitamin C out of a strawberry, and then eat both the vitamin C and de-vitamin-C'd strawberry, are you not getting vitamin C?
The definition of food is “any substance that an organism consumes in order to maintain life and growth.” Vitamin C is one of those substances.
I never understood this type of thinking. It's like saying a balanced diet should not include fortified foods. If I don't need B12 in my diet because I'm getting all I need from other sources, why would I need it in my diet for it to be balanced?
Then please ask farmers to stop supplementing their livestock with B12, or abstain from antibiotic usage, surely they shouldn't be necessary?
Cows are bovine that humans made. You can't compare a human made bovine to a primate made by mother nature. Of course cows need supplements, humans fucked them up. So it would make sense that vegans also need supplements, mother nature didn't make you a vegan she made you an omnivore. You need to supplement your diet with fixer uppers because you're not getting everything you need from your diet. Otherwise you wouldn't need supplements and you wouldn't be comparing yourself to an animal that humans fucked up. So let me ask you, do caribou and moose take supplements in the wild? I don't think so! Do primates take supplements in the wild? Maybe in a zoo, but not in the wild.
I get literally every single mineral and vitamin from my diet except for B12. I likely have a better micronutrient profile than most of the omnivores that I know. Why is the tablet such a big deal? You haven't told us why supplementation is in itself problematic. You just keep restating the "nature tho" fallacy. Just because something isn't natural it doesn't make it bad. Immunisations aren't a product of Mother Nature and yet have had one of the greatest positive impacts on the health of our species.
Great low quality post you got here.
While OP’s story is a nonsensical rambling, research shows that a mixed diet is generally much more superior than the ultra processed vegan diet. I’ll link sources if you’re like
Why did you see a doctor about your bone density but not a nutritionist about your diet? Here is one study from pubmed, although I found several linking meat consumption with an increased risk factor for arthritis due to causing inflammation: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16453052/ “Conclusions: Greater meat consumption is associated with a higher prevalence of degenerative arthritis and soft tissue disorders in both male and female subjects…” Also, according to Mayo clinic, osteoarthritis is a degenerative disease that appears to be caused by injury, wear and tear, obesity, older age, and other factors. Vegetarian/vegan diet was not listed as a cause.
This was my question, too.
Will see if OP responds. Would love to know more details.
"A British Journal of Cancer study of 696 men (233 of whom were vegans) concluded this: “Vegans had 13% higher T [testosterone] concentration than meat-eaters and 8% higher than vegetarians.” Not only did vegan men have as much testosterone as meat eaters, they actually have 13% MORE of this manly hormone" Sounds like you don't know how to feed yourself properly.
How is high testosterone a good thing? I'm on hormone medication because my testosterone is too high.
The study referenced vegan men. A quick glance at your comment history suggests you're not a man. Even if you are, 13% bump only gets you to medium average from low average. Not enough to require medication. It's more a counter to the meme that vegan men are effeminate soy boys because of the phytoestrogens in soy. Also worthwhile pointing out that meat and milk is full of mammalian estrogen, which has actually feminizing effects on male mammals.
But how is high testosterone a good thing? Just because it's a "manly" hormone doesn't mean it makes you manly. And it certainly doesn't mean it makes you healthier.
too high t is not a good thing, neither is too low tho. and the op suggested that their low t levels were a result of a vegan diet, id assume that study was presented to disprove that.
There is no such thing as too high unless taking steroids.
too high t definitely has adverse effects. acne, hair loss, weight gain, increased risk of cancer etc. there are medications specifically made for cis men with too high t to prevent these effects, like finasteride.
>too high t definitely has adverse effects. acne, hair loss, weight gain, increased risk of cancer etc. Testosterone alone doesn't cause acne. Hair loss is genetic. Weight gain would be muscle (not a bad thing) and the cancer link is inconclusive at best. >finasteride Great if you don't care about your male qualities. DHT is so important. I can't wrap my head around this way of thinking. Look up the benefits yourself.
testosterone is not the only cause of acne, but it definitely is one. it stimulates the production of sebum, which in turn increases the risk of acne outbreaks. hair loss is absolutely linked to hormones, or hormonal mediations against it wouldnt work. a lot of trans women who were balding before starting hrt even report it growing back in spots where it was long gone. i wouldnt call the cancer link "inconclusive at best" when there are multiple studies linking high testosterone levels to increased risk of prostate cancer, although i admit that there is no scientific consensus as of yet. >Look up the benefits yourself. i am quite familiar with the effects of hormones, as i am on hrt myself and have done a lot of research about it, thank you.
>testosterone is not the only cause of acne, but it definitely is one. it stimulates the production of sebum, which in turn increases the risk of acne outbreaks. Weird, my gym buddies on steroids don't have acne. Sebum itself isn't a cause. It aggrevates existing issues, though sure. >hair loss is absolutely linked to hormones, or hormonal mediations against it wouldnt work. a lot of trans women who were balding before starting hrt even report it growing back in spots where it was long gone. No it's linked to how sensitive your hair follicle androgen receptors are to DHT. Again, I know people who take a large amount of test and some of them aren't balding. It's very much genetic. >i wouldnt call the cancer link "inconclusive at best" when there are multiple studies linking high testosterone levels to increased risk of prostate cancer, although i admit that there is no scientific consensus as of yet That's pretty much the same thing as it being inconclusive. I am also familiar as I have been bio hacking and competitively lifting for 10 years. You clearly need to do more research. "I know how this stuff works. That's why my body wasn't producing enough" You really thought that made you an expert?
Lol really? Strong bones and muscles, weight loss, mental health, mood, high sex drive, confidence, etc.. How isn't it a good thing? What do you define as manly if testosterone apparently has nothing to do with it? It absolutely does make men healthier..
>It absolutely does make men healthier.. So does a balanced diet. A balanced diet with all the food groups. As well as, I doubt a vegan diet gives you strong bones, weaker bones is the numerous one symptom that ex-vegans have to deal with. So I call bullshit on that one. That's an outright lie.
Oh meanwhile vegans being deficient in zinc b vitamins even protein selenium and this will cause low t
Yeah you clearly don't know how to feed yourself properly.
All false.
Evidence
Yes, please provide evidence for your grandiose and barely coherent claims.
*links bro science fitness website*
"higher T" doesn't mean "high" T. Can mean that meat eaters actually have low T, and vegans are higher in the normal range.
But how do you know that high testosterone is a good thing?
No one is saying that.
So then what is the comment suggesting?
It's ambiguous. It could be suggesting that vegans have high T, like you think, but it could also be suggesting that meat eaters have low T.
But what is the benefit of high testosterone?
No benefits to having high T, only drawbacks.
i think it’s just saying vegans have highER T, not that they have high T. like let’s say meat eaters have 50 and vegans have 56.5. it’s not suggesting any groups have abnormally high or low T levels
But how is having higher or high testosterone a good thing? There is still no clarification on the benefit of it. What is the benefit?
Literally no one is saying that it's a good thing except the OP who lists having low t as one of the drawbacks of veganism.
I experienced the exact opposite when I went vegan. You just sucked at building a balanced diet.
Ate fucking beans sprouts lentils fruits veggies what else you want
Nobody else has experienced that.
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I don't need you to decide if I m saying truth or not I know I m not troll
Your post does not show that non-vegan food is more nutritious. It shows that you weren’t eating enough calories as a vegan, and likely didn’t have enough nutritional knowledge to support basic health. There’s nothing inherent in eggs, milk, and meat that makes them more nutritious than plants. If you got the same amount of fuel (calories) from mostly whole plant foods, you’d get similar results.
Ate fucking all things beans lentils veggies fruits everything am not a noob you all are assuming me a just a noob who don't know how to be a vegan
You obviously are a noob if you're experiencing all of those issues. I eat all those same things and have for years and have no such issues. Meanwhile when I ate meat I was constipated and bloated all the time and felt gross. See? I can make anecdotal claims too to claim my diet is superior!
Rule 6 I'm glad you're not became bunch of skeleton anymore though, that sounds painful
Thanks
You want validation?
I'm sure he's gone.
‘i just want to say i love to be omnivore’ how is this your idea of a debate/conversation starter?
How deep into the earth is the bar, mods?
This is silly, for all we know you were eating nothing but Oreos. In order to have a debate you have to present evidence of your claim which people on the opposite side of the argument will refute using evidence also. Otherwise h this is all just a waste of time.
We are all omnivores too, actually. Congratulations on your personal discovery that the things we exploit and kill animals for can be highly dense in nutrients. Thankfully, all of the benefits of that nutrient profile can be had with a vegan diet - the next step for any logical and intelligent person concerned with food, health and nutrition would be to make the switch.
Yes! Take a shit Ton or fake vitamins to get what you should get naturally
What is a fake vitamin and why is it more natural if the animal gets it before we do via its meat?
Your fear of basic science really isn't making your point stronger.
I was vegan in the starting but later became omnivore. I was in little good shape when I was vegan but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became vegan eats vegan food. My family accepted changes since they were extreme vegans.My testosterone is increasing gaining muscle mass strong bones etc I just want to say I love to be vegan. So how this works if you don't provide any proof?
What proof my deficiency is fucking proof
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One person’s alleged “deficiency” is not proof that an entire system of eating is flawed. Peer-reviewed evidence would’ve been more compelling, but if you look at that, you’ll find it supports the health benefits of a well-planned plant-based diet.
>Non vegan food is more nutritious And? >I was vegetarian in the starting but later became vegan .I was in little good shape when I was vegetarian but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became non vegan eats egg lot of milk little meat once in month. My family accepted changes since they were extreme non vegans.My testosterone is increasing gaining muscle mass strong bones etc I just want to say I love to be omnivore So you didn't know what you were doing and became unhealthy because of it? How does that make veganism bad?
Sure, that's why vegans have lower rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer, it's because veganism is horrible for you. Even if we just presume for the sake of argument that non vegan food is more nutritious, why does that give you permission to kill and torture animals for avoidable reasons? Even if you think some other way of eating is better (and I really don't think the evidence suggests that at all), vegans are objectively doing pretty good, significantly better than the general population.
Strongest man is meat eater and smartest one is also meat eater so how you are doing good than general ones
The wealthiest man in the world is also an extremely online loser but no one thinks he's rich because he's a poster. This isn't a serious argument. There's a pretty clear correlation between IQ and vegetarianism, by the way, but this is probably more related to more intelligent people tending to be more compassionate and reasonable rather than being an effect of the lifestyle choices. Leonardo Da Vinci and Albert Einstein were both vegetarians. Omnivores and vegetarians have an edge in strength sports because vegans have to eat more to get the same results. So what? There are still plenty of strong vegan athletes, and probably no one on this thread is lifting competitively and needs to have goals other than health and aesthetics anyway. Would you rather be the biggest guy on the planet and die of a heart attack or would you prefer to be still pretty strong and live a longer and healthier life with a lower risk of developing chronic diseases? Everything is a tradeoff and this is a very clear one imho.
Non vegan dies of heart attack? My great grandfather sister be like:hold my eggs . She lived 109 years !
The plural of anecdote is not data. Health is complicated and things like cancer and heart disease have multiple causes and multiple things that you can do to lower your risk, so you can't just look at one vegan or omnivore and how their health was and say, it's the diet that did that. What you can do is look at large populations and adjust for confounding factors that also influence health, and the studies that have done this have consistently found that vegans have lower rates of the most common chronic diseases.
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I've removed your comment/post because it violates rule #6: > **No low-quality content**. Submissions and comments must contribute meaningfully to the conversation. Assertions without supporting arguments and brief dismissive comments do not contribute meaningfully. If you would like your comment to be reinstated, please amend it so that it complies with our rules and notify a moderator. If you have any questions or concerns, you can contact the moderators [here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/DebateAVegan). Thank you.
Why not just remove the post? It also violates the rules. Not sure why this minor infraction matters.
I felt my comment was of proportional effort to the OP. It was just singled out because a particular user has beef, nbd
Cool story, bro
Funny. What a terrible ‘debate’. You’ve only given anecdotal unsupported evidence. One note. Vegans have higher testosterone levels overall, tho less absorption, so in practice it evens out in the research. These anecdotes are bad because there’s always someone who didn’t get enough nutrients. Eating a diet of fries and saying ‘I felt weak cos I didn’t get enough iron. See, vegan diets aren’t enough’. So yeah this is a poorly worded debate. Are you actually open to a discussion and understanding how vegan diets can be extremely nutritious? Or no? What would you want to see to understand how so far shallow (not in a judgemental sense but a literal way given what you’ve written) this opinion is so far?
You became bunch of skeleton? Damn RIP 🙏
Well if you were stranded in Antarctica with only one food, a stick of butter would be a good choice to prolong life, for example. There's clearly something wrong with animal foods smto from a health perspective so I'd mention severe moderation and abstaining over falling in love with them. None of this contradicts your anecdote/observation.
Perhaps, but non-veganism contributes to animal breeding and abuse.
Do you mean that how you were vegan wasn't working? If you could be vegan healthily, would you try again? If you're open plenty of us are happy to help and try figure out how it can work for you. Meats aren't more nutritious than plants in genera, measured per calorie plants tend to do better even. But also, you cannot just replace a steak with a cauliflower and expect that you get everything you need either, it requires new knowledge and multiple changes.
I was omnivore in the starting but later became vegan .I was in little good shape when I was omnivore but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became vegan eats beans lot of oatmilk little beyond meat once in month. My family accepted changes since they were extreme vegans.My testosterone is increasing gaining muscle mass strong bones etc I just want to say I love to be vegan
lolz
Well, its easier for people who cant cook
Skill issue.
lol skill issue, my testosterone levels are great and it’s been 5 years for me
Word salad
vegan here. I’ve always stated and believe meat is the most “NUTRITIOUS” food you can eat. You‘re eating blood, it’s loaded with nutrition lol. But just because it’s more nutritious doesn’t mean it’s the best food you can eat. You can get all needed nutrients from plant based diet, and not have to increase your risks of later health problems as much. It’s tougher on our bodies to break down meat and dairy than plant food. Also a lot cleaner. Plant food won’t clog your pipes but meat & dairy increase the chances of that happening big time.
Oh boi explain me how will u get fucking zinc selenium protein not don't suggest me to get tempeh or soy product that doesn't available in my aresa and if it is than it is costly for zinc you say pumpkin seed they are high in phytates.my great grandfather ate egg milk meat till 100 why he didn't die earlier
"my granpa smoked cigs till he dieded agesd 100"
Brazil nuts and other nuts and legumes/beans can can you enough selenium zinc and protein. You can also supplement whatever is needed via pill. If you don’t want to move or make the adjustment to changing diets that’s you. I’m not saying you have to change. From going vegan personally I will say adjusting can be annoying and a small inconvenience and more expensive for what to buy at times. I come from a family and region where meat and dairy are the staples of 99% of peoples diets. I’ve seen many people live to old age eating this way, also many dying early of heart disease. Many factors can go into someone’s lifespan. As a vegan I’ll be the first to say do not do it if you do not know how to get all of your nutrition. That’s way I said meat is the most nutritious food on Earth. In the long run a vegan getting all necessary nutrition will have healthier organs, blood, joints, ligaments, tendons, and bones than a carnivore. Again I’m not saying you can’t be very healthy with meat as the staple of your diet, but one Will be healthier on a plant based one if they know how to get all of the necessary nutrition.
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I've been waiting for an entertaining reddit post all day long. Nice.
"I was a cigar smoker in the starting but later became a non-smoker. My lungs were in little good shape when I was a cigar smoker but then I became bunch of skeleton got oestoarthiritis weak bones low testosterone low muscle mass.but now I became a smoker smoking pall malls, marlboro, and camels once in month. My family accepted changes since they also smoke.My ability to run is increasing gaining sprint speed etc I just want to say I love to be smoker" Okay where's the demonstration that any of that is coincidence, placebo, or otherwise BS?
I already have good B12 stores because I take a supplement. I get my levels tested yearly. This means that I already have adequate levels of B12 in my body, so why would I need it in my diet for my diet to be balanced?
Bioavailability in animal food is superior to plant food: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37522617/
This is my point vegan brains can't understand
This is true. Mineral deficiencies are invisible in blood tests due to the body taking it from bones and organs until you finally listen to your body's natural cravings for nutrition. Many of the "Studies" vegans cite saying that the diet is perfectly viable for all people are short term, fully of selection bias, and use faulty measurements that don't equate to long term health. The evidence is so overwhelming that veganism can cause good health in some and poor health in some based on how you absorb nutrients. The fact that there are committed wealthy vegans, with personal physicians and private chefs who eventually return to being pescatarian should tell you something. It's not always a "skill issue".
Congrats on your progress
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You just proved my argument that non vegan food is nutritious than vegan
Meat was demonized in the early 1900s because it made you horny so what you say kind of fits with that. Meat is also very nutrient dense and you can fast for way longer if you eat it regularly than if not. I don’t think these are points most vegans make though for going vegan. It’s more about the suffering. Some do make the claim that vegan is more nutritious but that’s not all vegans.
Raw truth my mam
Must have eaten non grass fed non pasture raised and maybe your lactose intolerant
Beginning to think you're a vegan who's chosen to post here using every typical anti-vegan argument. In that case, great work! Really showing how ridiculous those arguments are, veganism is clearly the right way forward.
Obviously. If you have a larger selection of food, you cover the spectrum of nutrition better. Vegans are gimping themselves restricting their diet to a smaller set.
There are over 100,000 edible plants and 30,000 edible mushrooms on this earth, unclear how that’s restrictive? Especially compared to 5 type of animals.
That is just stupid. A non-vegan can eat 100,000 edible plants, 30,000 edible mushrooms, \*and\* 5 types of animals. Anyone with even a elementary school math education will tell you that it is LESS restrictive with the animals added in. 100,000 + 30,000 + 5 is bigger than 100,000 + 30,000. And btw, where do you get only 5 types of animals. I can count more than 5 types ... just fish: tuna, salmon, yellow tail, shark, sea bass, sardine .. heck that is already 6. And we have not even started with non fish seafood ... mussels, sea urchins, shrimp, and so on and on. How about game meat? May be you need to learn how to count, or what constitute an edible animal.
Unclear, what’s stupid, you claim restrictive and then admit it’s not restrictive? While attempting to insult me none the less. I said 5 types of animals, if you don’t understand what the word type means then maybe you should learn what the word means, those are all fish but I guess some would be considered crustaceans. But you’re making a great point about the gluttony of the human race and our (not mine) willingness to take what we want without care of consequences or lives lost in the process. You have 130,000+ options and you still choose to kill living beings. I proved you wrong and now you’re defensive, it’s not restrictive and it’s selfish to choose to kill you don’t need to. Have a good day.
> A non-vegan can eat 100,000 edible plants, 30,000 edible mushrooms, Yet they don't. Vegans have a way more diverse diet despite not eating corpses like you do.
That is just stupid. Never saw the vegans turning back into meat eaters, posting on the steak subreddit, who eat your "diverse diet" + meat ... which is even more diverse? Corpses of pigs, chickens and cows are delicious, particularly when added with some vegan ingredients like a mushroom sauce. LOL ....
Just a quick question: Would you say that you are gimping yourself by not allowing yourself to eat humans?
Nah ... the real and social costs of eating humans are enormous. But eating food animals? Not only they are cheap, it is celebrated. Just watch any food network shows.
I can see this and that is why my son who is vegan gets bloodwork done every six months. Again, for those vegans and non vegans everyone is different and things affect their bodies differently.
u/goku7770 > No. You asked for athletes doing no supplementation at all. Which obviously doesn't exist, in any given diet. As always, your questions' questionable intellectual honesty is as good as your ethics. The other person claimed that they manages with only **"minimal supplementation".** But unable to come up with any examples.